Sumokun I hope you're all right. It started with a lot of ambition to get myself a Japanese chisel or a set, a few things that happened recently (not life threatening) pushed my attention to things of "more" importance. In any way, I wanted to thank you for your great advises regarding what's "worth" to be called a fine Japanese chisel. Cheers my friend, Domo Arrigatto.
A very nice restoration project! Thanks for the advice on selecting chisels. Though I strobgly recommend to skip the burnishing part; Most chemicals use water soluble Selenium, a highly toxic element suscepted to cause cancer and severe health degradation. Use extreme caution and have protective gloves at hand! More or less, a sheath of 5 µm sheding 1/4 square cm a day brings you close to the maximum yearly exposure dose.
Indeed. This guy was a complete beginner though and I don't think he had any hand tool experience, let alone sharpening experience so I wanted to show him the basic steps to restore the tool.
good video. I would only say that replacing the handle is not a big deal and you get a lot of satisfaction making your own handle - but i do get your point. However, the biggest thing to add is to have a close look at the metal to see if it has ever been overheated while sharpening, because then you need to heat treat the metal again, which is a bigger thing.
Christopher Routley, good question. I looked at a few shops in Yoko. There is a hardware store that is on the way to the train station. They had "nomi" in a glass case. New and pricey a few hand planes too. Another hardware store in the Honch. Walking from New Yoko Hotel turn left. It was about a block on the right. Cool little old lady. She sells Rambo knives and tools. I bought a marking gauge and feather files. I only had a day to hunt.
Meant to add. Or is it just a difference in mortising technique? In the west we lever on the great big chunky piece of iron. But the chisels being sold here of Japanese fabrication are made from the same steel as the bench chisels. Do Japanese carpenters just not lever as much to protect the more brittle edge? Or was a different steel being utilised? I.e. are we being duped lol?
Excellent and elaborate video. I learned a lot from it! If you change the video name to "From rusted blunt to hair cutting, how to restore a Japanese Chisel." It probability would attract more viewers. :)
Hi, I got both of mine locally so I am not really sure where to get them elsewhere but for the puller, look around in hardware stores. You should definitely be able to find them at online machine tool supply places or even auctions. The setter can usually be found at places where they carry Japanese chisels. As an alternative, use a large nut socket.
Hi Sumokun, I’m about to purchase my first set of Japanese chisels, I was wondering if you could possible give these chisels a look over before I purchase. Best regards, Elliot
Hi, I tried sending a message to you but it looks like I can't? I also don't think its a good idea to post your email address on a public place like unless you really like spam :p What problem are you having sending a message to me? If you go to my channel page, click the "About" tab and in there, you should find a button/icon to send me a message. Let me know if that works and if it doesn't then we can figure something out.
Hey Sumokun my name is Chris. I am currently living in Yokosuka Japan. And as a fellow woodworker I have some questions as to where I can find items such as Iwasaki files and floats here in Japan. I was curious to see if there might be a way that I could email you to ask questions regarding finding woodworking products here in Japan. If there is anyway that I could get in touch with you in regards to these types of inquiries please let me know. Thank you for your time! Chris
+Larry Tipson Hi, the puller did have a point but I ground it off for two reasons. First, and the most important reason, is that it will split the handle if not ground flat. I tried using a metal plate between the puller point and the handle but its a bit troublesome aligning everything up. Second is because with my particular model, the point made the screw portion just long enough that some chisels wouldn't fit. I actually had to chop off come of the shaft as well.
Hello interesting video What kind of honing guide do you use for japanese chisels in the video with the shapton stones. Amazing nice result I have only seen Veritas and lie nielson Honing guides. Do veritas and lie nelson fit for example some matsumura or kunikei chisels orie nomi orbatsu nomi?
Hi, for chisels, I use the Kell No.1 with large wheels mostly. For larger sizes I use the No. 2 as well. I have found these are the most reliable guides for chisels and they are probably the only ones that work as advertised for Japanese chisels. I have a video going through the sharpening guides I use for various tools in more detail if you are interested.
Thanks for quick answe previosly i mayby go for kell no 1 then I am aboat to buy my first set of wetstones and wich one do you recomend between Shapton professional ha no kuromaku and naiwas sharpening stones serie or naiwas professional serie What do you recomend of those series other than naiwa prof is a higher price than shapton here in sweden:)
You can' really go wrong with the Kell No.1 but make sure you get the larger wheels unless you use short chisels because it makes the guide much easier to use. For stones, I would recommend the Shaptons. They are cheap (relatively), wear well, consistent in quality and they just work. A set of 1k, 5k and 8k are a good starter set. Make sure you have a method to flatten them though. That is arguably more important than the stone.
Hello, If I have used, not properly sharpened chisel, do I need to flatten entire back of it or just 1,5 cm ? I've bought used Japanese chisels on ebay and I think they may be not perfectly flat at the back. Would it be worth flattening entire surface at the back before sharpening bevel? If so what would be the best technique to do this? thanks
Hi, personally I like to flatten the whole back. Flattening the tip only makes paring a bit harder than it needs to be. The hollow of Japanese chisels should let you flatten the whole back relatively easily. When you do it, just make sure you flatten more on the edge end rather than the handle end to preserve the wedge-like profile otherwise you might find the hollow eating into the edge, and you can't tap chisels out like kanna. The best way would be to grind away on a coarse diamond plate followed by the usual progression through grits on Waterstones. I would avoid the kanaban and abrasive approach because it is both slow and difficult to control.
+Jonathan Foong I'm not sure exactly what it is called but searching for something like "drill buffing wheel" should set you on the right track. Its not a wire brush as it is made of some kind of fiber packed together with abrasives embedded in it. It is like those 3M ScotchBrite pads but much denser and a bit rubbery feeling. You can use wire brushes and those ScotchBrite drums but this type of attachment is the one I have found to work the best without damaging the tool.
Hi, so the wheel I used was something I found at the local hardware shop a long time ago and even at the time of filming, it seemed to be out of production. I have no idea what it was called but I looked high and low for it to no avail for several years. The closest replacement I found was something made by Ichiguchi called a "delight wheel". This is a Japanese product so I have no idea if you will be able to find it outside of Japan. I would guess the next closest thing would be a 3M abrasive wheel but those things are generally not as durable and leave deeper scratches. They'll work but you just need to do some extra work later. Hope that helped!
+Larry Tipson I'm not sure of the brand as the sticker has fallen off but I am pretty sure the exact wheel is not available outside Japan. As for how long it lasts, I would say pretty much "years". The abrasive is embedded in the rubbery mesh so as it wears down, more abrasive is exposed. The wheel pretty much lasts as long as the wheel is not worn down to the shaft. You can probably start by looking for abrasive wheels. Look for one that is soft but not too spongy. For example the 3M scouring pad type ones are too soft. The flappy sandpaper type ones are too aggressive. The one I use is like a medium hard rubbery/fibery compound that has abrasives embedded in it. A trip to the hardware store will probably turn up something that is useful.
Aloha Sumokun, My friend just returned from Japan, and while she was there I asked her to pick up a set of regular chisels for me which she did. When I went to hone it I discovered it was set at 35 bevel angle, so all I did was to leave it at 35 and just honed them. I normally set all my chisels to 30, and I didn't want to spend the day grinding new chisels to 30, I want o try them first. What do you think of a 35 bevel angle? blade too thin? Take care! Aloha Randy
+Randy Kobashikawa 35 degrees should be fine to use. I would just leave them and slowly lower the angle over several sharpenings. You could just lower it to 30 all in one go but it would take a bunch of time. For chopping work, 35 is a good angle. Also, depending on the chisel, 35 degrees could help to prevent chipping in the edge. I would try them as they are for a few weeks and then think about what they can't do for you.
Aloha+Sumokun , Yep, I used a couple of them today they seemed to work fine. I'm working with some real hard wood (Brazilian Cherry) cleaned up some mortises seemed ok to me, think I'll just leave it and see what happens. Take care! Aloha Randy
I have a question, hope you could help. I got here a chisel that has a sticker that's showing two leaves. Is ouchi the only maker that uses the logo? Much thanks.
Ouchi do use a two leaves type logo but I think they always stamped their name on the blade. I do remember seeing another maker using a leaf type logo but I can't remember who or exactly hat it looked like. I just remember seeing it and going hey, that's like Ouchi's logo but it isn't an Ouchi.
Great video! I would like to ask though, what do you think of the Fujikawa chisels from japan woodworker? And also the Astage chisels on Amazon? Thank you.
Hi, I personally think the Fujikawa chisels are pretty basic and although serviceable, I would save up for a better set knowing what I do now. You aren't going to be replacing chisels that often so I would recommend you buy something of higher quality because in the long run, you will be able to trust the tool to do its job and also enjoy it more. The Astage chisels are something I would avoid. They are laminated, yes, but they don't have the same construction of a traditional Japanese chisel.
Sumokun im on a budget so $250 is probably the most I want to spend on a set. Which of these three would you recommend most? The Fujikawa chisels I mentioned, the Japan Woodworker brand ones, or the Yataro brand?
Well if your choice is strictly between those three, then Fujikawa would be my choice. However, I would personally not buy any of those. First the JW brand and the Yataro brand are pretty much the same chisel and are way overpriced. They are mass produced low quality chisels which can be had for under half that price over here. I have a bunch of them because they are the best throwaway-level chisels I could find. My thoughts on the Fujikawa ones have been covered above. Now Japanese chisels are not something you want to get into if you are on a budget simply because they are inherently expensive tools. For your budget I would seriously consider going for a nice set of LN or something because they are decent quality and have a good resale value if you decide you don't like them. Japanese chisels at this price point are a bit hit and miss in general. You would also do well to consider what a "set" of chisels means to you. Do you want a set of 10 to cover all the scenarios? Or do you want to get say 3 to cover the work you mostly do? You can see the difference in budget per chisel of those two scenarios. You might also want to consider buying used chisels. Yes, there is the overhead of hunting them down but you should be able to put together a set for less than the Fujikawas and also have the same or better quality. I get the urge to go and get some chisels right now (I was in the same situation when I first started) but I would really recommend you save for a smaller number of good quality chisels.
Sumokun first of all I want to give you a big thanks for having the patience to answer my questions in great detail. I’m going to take your advice and find some used ones on eBay. Do you have any tips on buying used on eBay?
Sumokun hi so I took your advice and got some chisels used on eBay for very cheap. Can you tell me what you think about them? rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282852499036 rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282851669550 rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282852500682 Their pictures are in their descriptions. Thank you
Hi, I use "blackening liquid" which is a local product marketed specifically for blackening tools. I am not really sure where to get it outside of Japan and I am not sure what the active chemicals are so I can't help you there but it might be an idea to try a cold blue solution if you can get some of that.
@@sumokun on a slightly different note, I wonder if you can direct me to any sites that supply 左久作 knives, or of similar quality, I am interested in finding a good quality whittling blade.
Thanks. I used a "blackening chemical" that is available over here from hobby blacksmith shops and some tool shops.It is probably similar (just a guess because there are no indications on the bottle) to cold bluing or gun bluing solution. You should be able to find a similar product where you live. Birchwood Casey Perma Blue is probably the most well known brand.
Haha, well even water is dangerous if you breathe too much of it in. If you are using chemicals like Perma Blue then I assume you are smart enough to use the correct protective gear.
+Sumokun Well, u could do the blueing of course and take adequate measures, but the real problem is the abrasion that inevitably will occur when the chisel is used, most importantly when honed. The structure of Selenium for example allows it to travel through your skin... U do not gave to ingest or inhale. The black on new chisels is an other kind of iron oxide, whereas BC-type products create a coat of heavy metal compounds, such as Antimony. The stuff you're using creates toxic waste and is a serious medical issue. All this for the sake of black DYE? Also, please not that the rust-repelling effect is not the same quality than for forge black, i.e. iron oxide. I bet the traditional carpenters of Japan did not use water-soluble-Selenium-based agents ;p otherwise, great work. I have restored a similar chisel and it turned out just fine thanks to your instructions.
Just out of curiosity, was this video a commission, and did you get payed by the minute? Very little actual work being shown, and quite a lot of over-detailed information.
+ArcAiN6 Unfortunately, no I don't get paid by the minute :p You've probably noticed from all my other videos but I don't do this to entertain people that drop by. I'm trying to provide information on whatever it is I'm covering so it would be kind of pointless if there were no details included. The great thing about the internet by the way is that you can choose what you want to watch/see and if you don't like it, move along ;)
Firstly I hope you are well and find time to create new content; I greatly benefited from your videos and enjoyed the western and japanese synergism. Secondly a few question regarding steel hardness, morticing and mortice chisels and smiths you'd recommend. We spoke before regarding Matsumura chisels, a brand common in the west and who makes mukoumachi (?) nomi but I was wondering if Japanese mortise chisels made for the traditional, knowledgeable and discerning woodworkers in Japan are normally still made with white paper steel - being so hard surely it's not the best option? In the UK we traditionally sharpen with a convex bevel too; is this something you do/have seen, as it certainly is more efficacious? I love the smaller size of Japanese chisels and that they are hand forged and that is not so common anymore here. Are there any smiths in particular who make high quality mortise chisels?
Hi, I'm trying to make some new videos but my bench decided to take itself apart and I am changing job right now so things are getting a bit hectic :p Mortise chisels, and chisels in general, are made with White steel in Japan. You can get Blue steel ones but they are not the norm. I am not sure of the reason why White steels are so prevalent over the Blues, but I don't think hardness is the deciding factor. Convex bevels are a big no-no here in Japan simply because it is more difficult to achieve a consistently sharp edge with efficiency. I plan to make a video explaining the reasoning behind this but at the core of it is the fact that to abrade the edge of a convex bevelled blade, you need to either abrade it at precisely the same angle as the previous sharpening or slightly steeper. This is very hard to do freehand and the result is that you will wear in a steeper and steeper bevel angle over time unless you grind down the meat of the bevel, which is a waste of time since the edge (which is what matters) is not being abraded. By maintaining a flat bevel and stone, you abrade both the body and edge of the tool in one shot and if you practice this, you will get good enough so that you can get a sharp edge with minimal fuss and most importantly, consistently. For mortise chisels a double bevel to help penetration but retain edge strength is beneficial but it is not something that is done commonly in Japan as far as I know. As for quality mortise chisel smiths... Just about any quality maker of standard chisels produces good mortise chisels so I would just get what is convenient. Personally I have a set of old Ouchi ones that have a shank finish/shape I have not seen elsewhere which I love but it doesn't look like they are made anymore. As for technique, the Japanese teach against prying simply because it is sure to dull/damage the edge, regardless of what chisel you are using. First you should never drive a chisel so deep as to get it stuck in the work. If you do get it stuck, either tap the work to release the chisel like a kanna blade from the dai, or gently wiggle the chisel sideways (along the width of the blade) to work it out. If you pry when it is stuck, the very edge will either snap or bend and the edge will not hold up as well as it should. You can "pry" to lever out loose chips however. Just don't pry when the edge is driven deep in the work piece. A mortise chisel is chunky in its section so that it doesn't bend when levering loose chips out of a deep hole the same width as the chisel. The edge strength is the same as a standard bench chisel (providing the bevel geometry is the same of course). Hope that helped!
Chuk, check your spam folder again. I have sent you a PM. I don't think you got it. Another great vid. Just in time too. I just bought a few used J-chisels.
Somokun, sorry to bother you. If you had the choice between these three sets of chisels (1/4", 1/2", 1", 1.25" 1.5" five set), what would be your choice? Nomikatsu, Marukatsu, or Tokutaro? These sets come in a 10 or 5 sets or individual piece, are you familiar with these names at all? To be honest, they all look the same, some color difference, I can't tell them apart... www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Japanese-Chisels/departments/384/ Thanks. R
+ronin4711 Well, they are all hardware store level chisels. If I had to choose a set, I would go for the Marukatsu. The Tokutaro are just bottom line chisels made in the Japanese style. Nomikatsu are again, low grade chisels and these ones are HSS so they aren't really suited for general work. I have a set of white steel Nomikatsu as beaters and they work OK but they do chip. I would pick the Marukatsu simply because the other two choices are not so great. You should really think this through though. Why not just get 3 chisels of a higher quality? Do you really need all 5 sizes right now? Also, the higher end of these chisels gets you into LN territory. What is wrong with a set of LNs? Lots of people have had good results from LN and even if you find they aren't for you, you can sell them again for a minimal loss. Japanese tools don't keep their value anywhere near as well. IMHO, it really is a waste of money to go buy substandard Japanese tools. You're probably looking at Japanese tools thinking how they will cut better but the truth is that this performance level only comes after a certain price point and since Japanese tools are relatively expensive, if you are considering a lower end Japanese tool, I would advise you to just skip them and go for a quality Western tool instead.
Sumokun Wakarimass. By now, I think I got IT! When I'll be ready I think I'll concentrate on 3 pieces (probably 6, 9 and 18 mm, unless you suggest different sizes) and try my luck with the best I can buy, hardware store quality, I have plenty but my heart is set on a good Japanese set, I'm not in hurry. If it's OK with you, I'll be asking your opinion maybe a couple of more times...name brand I'm not familiar with. Again, I appreciate your candid comments. Domo arigato...
+ronin4711 Hi, yup, sure no problem. I'll always be here if you have questions ;) Size is a personal matter and its something you need to figure out in the course of working the way you do. A Basic set though would be something like 6mm, 12mm and maybe 24mm. Depending on your requirements, a 3mm is very useful too. You could even just get some really cheap chisels for the less used sizes for starters and slowly replace them as you have the funds etc. The bottom line is basically don't spend too much money on lower quality tools. Buy once and buy good ;)
Cool, I heard once the expression, "if the expensive tool is good, buy it, it only hurts once"... Again, you're a wonderful source of help, I'll be happy to help you if I can from this side of the pond (US). Best, R.
Sumokun Blue steel vs white steel? Matsamura chisels, and the name has a very good and reputable blacksmith for 200 years. Plus, it's available locally, I'll probably buy ONE for now to try (12mm or 1/2", it's the most I use), most of the names you mentioned are from Japan only... Your opinion? Thanks, R.
Hi there, long time... Somokun, I have a question in your expertise, Japanese chisels: I've been salivating about Japanese chisels for long time, the real problem is that most of them are very expensive to extreme... Now, on eBay you can find a set of 3 from $50 to mega $$. it is pretty obvious to me that the most expensive ones, you're paying more for a named craftsman and that may be significant for you but for me, it's all Greek, if you know what I mean? I don't have expectancy from a cheap one to perform like top of the line, my question is: how are those cheap made not folded or maybe machine mass produced? On the other hand, what is a decent price for a set of(1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 inch) 4 chisels that will not send me to the "poor house"? If there is a list of names that you could recommend, I'll very much appreciate it. Thanks ...
+ronin4711 Hi there! Chisels really do range from stupid cheap to ridiculous, and as a general rule, I would go for something in the range of 5000 yen to 10000 yen per chisel (about 18mm size, and price if bought in Japan). The cheaper ones in this range will do the job but they might have some problems like with chipping or general finish quality etc. Moving on to a chisel in the middle of that range and up, you will pretty much get something that you can depend on and it will be a good, solid tool that is pretty much as good as it gets. If you go below that range, then you run into the hardware store type tools and they have their place (I use some for the rougher work) but as a main set, I would try and get a smaller number of chisels but of higher quality. These are not always machine made and you'd be surprised at the number that are actually hand made but you can expect the materials used to be of lower quality, the lower end ones are mass produced by machine from pre-laminated steel, and heat treating might not be so consistent. Now if you go to the super high end, you are mainly paying for collectors and brand name value. Some people want that in a tool but if you are going to use the tool, then something in that range is not going to give you greatly increased performance but you really get the fuzzy feeling of owning a piece of "art". For a set of 4 chisels in those sizes, I would expect to spend around 30-35k yen for a nice set. This is pretty expensive when compared to Western chisels but I don't really think the two are so comparable. Names or brands really vary depending on where you live and what you can get but my personal favourite are Kanetake chisels. They offer a good price to performance ratio and they are usually in stock. They fall in the higher end of the recommended price range above. As for brands available overseas, the only one I am semi-familiar with and would recommend is Masashige. The others I have seen are either of low quality, overpriced or just plain ridiculous in price. Iyoroi is really borderline in terms of what I would consider for a main set of chisels. They are cheap though. Ouchi are good but they are overpriced in the West, Koyamaichi are the lower end of what I would go for and I would personally try and spend a bit more to get a better tool. Tasais are crazy expensive in the West... I don't know about everything that is available in the West but the stuff I have come across usually has an issue in the price/quality balance. Used chisels are really where bargains can be had because they are stupid cheap, and they are usually (if you know what you are looking for) of decent quality; usually around the lower to mid end of the recommended price range above in terms of quality. Of course they will need work and they don't come with the satisfaction of owning a new tool but as users, I really think you should consider them if you are wanting to try out Japanese chisels on a budget. Anyway, hope that helped and feel free to ask if you have any more questions ;)
+Sumokun WOW, my first word for this, it gave me some "work" to do and you're right on the money price wise. As for even the first recommended set 35K yen is $287 for a four set is in the range of the High End of American chisels by Lie Nielsen and such which are considered very good quality, I personally never tried one, much less to compare it to a Japanese quality chisel. As for the Tsai Damascus pattern, at $4085 for a 10 set (498,170 yen), it's museum quality and should kept there, it's NOT FOR USE! and I don't care how rich someone is to have such a set...yes, that fuzzy feeling...I'd say butterflies in my stomach rather... In any way, I saw quite a few times on Ebay used chisels but, some are in bad shape and the ones that aren't are priced ridiculously mind you...besides, you don't "really" know what you're getting and sometimes it's "a cat in the bag" as we say here (a bad thing)! Somokun, now that I have an idea (not so sure yet) what to look for I wanted to thank you kindly for your effort to respond in such detail. You are a great pen pal and a quality craftsman. Be well, R. I checked also on eBay for Used chisels, there is this Happy-From-Japan that he's advertising sets from "old craftsman" sets in deplorable condition and used to the Max blades, the prices... well, kinda: "a cat in a bag" looks like... Just as a gag, wanted to share with you something ridiculous (in my opinion), this person is selling these chisels (trying) for years now: www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Rare-Japanese-Ebony-ICHIHIRO-Oiire-Nomi-Bench-Chisel-Set-Museum-Quality/290883015254?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33876%26meid%3D21678517e119447590d15756f8885155%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D271685536864
+ronin4711 I haven't tried a Lie Nielsen chisel yet (although I do own one), but I do have a LN spokeshave with A2 blade and I was pretty disappointed in the blade. It would chip or crumble when used in tough woods. Even my Wood River block plane with it's Chinese steel didn't degrade as much when used on the same piece of wood. My Japanese blades didn't even flinch. This was after about 5 strokes with each. I actually bought the LN chisel for testing but just haven't gotten round to it yet. I so want to like the LN chisels because they look well made and they are cheaper than Japanese chisels by quite a margin but what really matters for me is how they perform and handle. Ebay can be a bit of a gamble but after you get an eye for chisels, you will find you can easily spot a chisel that is at least of decent quality, even if it is covered in rust. I haven't checked ebay for a while now since I have better places to shop but I am pretty sure there are some good chisels out there waiting to be snapped up. The Tasai damascus are expensive in Japan as well but nowhere near the price the sellers overseas are asking. They are more of a presentation piece than a full out user tool and the damascus pattern is actually detrimental to their ease of sharpening. The wrought iron ones are also not so great because they are too soft and can't take as much hard work when compared to a modern iron. Those Ichihiro's are also not so far out of what you would expect to pay in Japan. Ichihiro's do perform well but they are now collectors items. I think he was one of the first (if not the first) to introduce science into his chisel making so his heat treat was much more consistent and of a high quality compared to other smiths of the era. The finish on his chisels are also impeccable. Nowadays though, a lot of smiths use metallurgy to their advantage so the heat treat is quite similar across a lot of smiths.
+Sumokun I never used LN chisels, I own a 4 1/2 plane by LN and I think this is the Rolls Royce of planes (IMHO). Wanted to bring to your attention another company that came out with a "new" kind of metal for blades called: PM-V11 by Veritas from Lee Valley tools, they have chisels and handplane blades made by this metal, here's a link for you to read about: www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504 I also wanted your opinion about this, I think I know the answer to it but I'll wait patiently to your response, thanks so far...R www.ebay.com/itm/252269033497?euid=dcf7feb354094b9bb34499f0ad239f36&cp=1
+ronin4711 Hi, LN definitely have some nice bodies but I am unimpressed with their blades so far. Maybe mine was a bad sample but considering their reputation for quality, I am surprised they didn't catch it in testing. After all we are paying a premium for them being good out of the box... I actually have a PMV11 chisel from LV, again for testing, but I haven't used it yet. It looks promising as a steel but the price is up there with some nice Japanese chisels so I actually look forward to seeing how they compare. I also have a couple of plane blades in PMV11 but I haven't used them enough to form an opinion yet. Initial impressions are good although I can't say I'm a fan of how it sharpens. If you haven't realised yet, I actually plan to do a video on my comparisons ;) I have a whole bunch of chisels to test and not much free time so basically I am just waiting for some time to do it. I don't know what the outcome will be and I hope to be surprised. The ebay chisels you posted are firmly in the budget category. I wouldn't bother with them unless you want something cheap that you can use for really nasty jobs.
Hi, yeah sometimes chisels can be really badly maintained but they will work fine once you get them flat again. With the narrower sizes, a curve along the length of the blade can indicate the previous owner was prying with the tool and bent it and you can usually carefully bend it back to almost straight and grind the rest out as long as there are no cracks in the steel. Curving along the width of the tool usually indicates bad sharpening skill and you just have to grind away until it is flat..
An interesting and instructive video - what I watched. Unfortunately the too many "uhhms" made me give up. I do apologise, but they became intrusive. I started counting the "uhmms" and not listening to the good information.
+Paul Zarek The hardest part of a restoration is the diagnosis rather than the actual polishing etc. I am trying to give people pointers on what to look for when embarking on a restoration project rather than how to polish a piece of steel.
This is sorry. He shows you all the simple shit and then the hard stuff you need to know (like: "blackin' with chemicals") he says nothing. I think I know how to use a buffing wheel. Sad
+Jack Schlachter lol, tbh I think slapping some blackening chemicals onto a chisel is easier than using a buffing wheel. The reason I didn't tell you exactly what I did was because the product I used is not available outside Japan so the information would be useless to you anyway. I also think you took away the wrong info from the video if you think using a buffing wheel was the main part. The bulk of the info I think you should have been picking up is in the initial selection of a chisel to tune up and also some fixes to the common issues that appear in used chisels, i.e. the condition of the handle and also the mushrooming of the hoop.
+JWG@Large Hi there! For used chisels, auctions or forums is definitely the way to go. The reason I recommend you stay away from cracked handles or other defective tools is because they are not worth the expense and time to fix them. There will always be a similar chisel for sale sooner or later that will be in better condition. You can buy replacement handles and hoops etc but that is an extra cost you don't need to (or shouldn't need to) pay up. The same goes for rusty or bent tools. Just wait a bit and another one will pop up for the same price but in better condition. Now for the quality of these tools, in general, they are good but not great tools. I have looked over literally thousands of used chisel listings on auctions both in Japan and Overseas over the years and I have amassed probably over 100 used chisels that were sold as "generic used chisel". I can say that just about all of those listings were for "good" or lesser quality tools. When you see a great chisel, the bidding will go up accordingly and only in the very rare cases will you actually get a bargain on a great chisel, mostly in the form of a hidden gem in a set of chisels. The good chisels can be had for peanuts though and there are hundreds of them so that is why I recommend staying away from defective ones. From the 100 or so chisels I have personally gotten, exactly 2 were great chisels. One was a gouge by Takahashi and the other was a 9mm one by Osahiro (or Nagahiro depending on how you pronounce it). All the others were definitely in the good or less range. If you are buying from a Japanese seller on ebay, then the chances of you getting a great tool is just about zero. These people aren't stupid and in general I find they only sell the rejects they can't sell in Japan on ebay. As with all Japanese tools though, it is not so easy to determine if a tools is a high quality one or not from looks. The bottom line is that if it works OK for you then its a good tool so I wouldn't stress too much about the brand name quality etc.
+Sumokun Being and avid woodworker, replacing the handles and hafts are such simple fun jobs. Especially for socket style chisels and you are able to make it exactly how you like it. From a strict restoration standpoint I can more understand your view but otherwise, socket chisel handle are simple even without a lathe.
+Nick C Hi, if you have the time to replace a handle and you like that kind of work, then sure, that's a great way to go but my issue is that there are so many used tools out there that you are almost certain to find a similar tool in better condition for a similar price. No point in buying up a damaged tool when you can get an undamaged one for the same price. Japanese chisels also pose a bit more of a problem because the hardware (hoops and skirts) are both not easy to find in the correct size and relatively expensive. Socket chisels are a different story since they can be rehandled with no extra hardware. Personally I like the process of replacing the handles on nicer chisels but I wouldn't recommend a beginner looking for a tool to use try it on a Japanese chisel.
Thanks for your videos! You mention blackening the chisel - how do you do that?
Concise tutorial and superb results! Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Good video. I shall be looking out for some Japanese chisels this spring.
WOmadeOD - Made in Wood with Mitch Peacock Thanks! As long as you avoid the mass produced ones, you really can't go wrong.
Wait and see ;)
The finished product is truly inspiring
Very pretty !!!
What was and what happened. It's just heaven and earth!
Cool, very cool happened !!!
Thanks for the video !!!
No problem ;)
Sumokun
I hope you're all right.
It started with a lot of ambition to get myself a Japanese chisel or a set, a few things that happened recently (not life threatening) pushed my attention to things of "more" importance.
In any way, I wanted to thank you for your great advises regarding what's "worth" to be called a fine Japanese chisel.
Cheers my friend, Domo Arrigatto.
+ronin4711 Hi, hope you are doing well! Feel free to message any time. I'm always happy to help ;)
Sumokun san.
Good work!
Thanks for watching!
A very nice restoration project! Thanks for the advice on selecting chisels. Though I strobgly recommend to skip the burnishing part; Most chemicals use water soluble Selenium, a highly toxic element suscepted to cause cancer and severe health degradation. Use extreme caution and have protective gloves at hand! More or less, a sheath of 5 µm sheding 1/4 square cm a day brings you close to the maximum yearly exposure dose.
anyone needing to use chisels should probably know how to restore one (your customer) Good vid sir!
Indeed. This guy was a complete beginner though and I don't think he had any hand tool experience, let alone sharpening experience so I wanted to show him the basic steps to restore the tool.
Thats very nice of you! Kuddos
good video. I would only say that replacing the handle is not a big deal and you get a lot of satisfaction making your own handle - but i do get your point. However, the biggest thing to add is to have a close look at the metal to see if it has ever been overheated while sharpening, because then you need to heat treat the metal again, which is a bigger thing.
Christopher Routley, good question. I looked at a few shops in Yoko. There is a hardware store that is on the way to the train station. They had "nomi" in a glass case. New and pricey a few hand planes too. Another hardware store in the Honch. Walking from New Yoko Hotel turn left. It was about a block on the right. Cool little old lady. She sells Rambo knives and tools. I bought a marking gauge and feather files. I only had a day to hunt.
Meant to add. Or is it just a difference in mortising technique? In the west we lever on the great big chunky piece of iron. But the chisels being sold here of Japanese fabrication are made from the same steel as the bench chisels. Do Japanese carpenters just not lever as much to protect the more brittle edge? Or was a different steel being utilised? I.e. are we being duped lol?
Excellent and elaborate video. I learned a lot from it!
If you change the video name to "From rusted blunt to hair cutting, how to restore a Japanese Chisel." It probability would attract more viewers. :)
+James Fan Hi, thanks for watching! Haha, definitely. Changing the name would probably get more views ;)
can you advice about the ferrule remover and hoop inserter where to buy from thanks
Hi, I got both of mine locally so I am not really sure where to get them elsewhere but for the puller, look around in hardware stores. You should definitely be able to find them at online machine tool supply places or even auctions. The setter can usually be found at places where they carry Japanese chisels. As an alternative, use a large nut socket.
Hi Sumokun,
I’m about to purchase my first set of Japanese chisels, I was wondering if you could possible give these chisels a look over before I purchase.
Best regards,
Elliot
Elliot Hristovski Sure thing, send over a link or something and I'll have a look.
Sumokun do you have an email I can forward the links to? I’m having an issue with direct messaging.
Hi, I tried sending a message to you but it looks like I can't? I also don't think its a good idea to post your email address on a public place like unless you really like spam :p
What problem are you having sending a message to me? If you go to my channel page, click the "About" tab and in there, you should find a button/icon to send me a message. Let me know if that works and if it doesn't then we can figure something out.
Hey Sumokun my name is Chris. I am currently living in Yokosuka Japan. And as a fellow woodworker I have some questions as to where I can find items such as Iwasaki files and floats here in Japan. I was curious to see if there might be a way that I could email you to ask questions regarding finding woodworking products here in Japan. If there is anyway that I could get in touch with you in regards to these types of inquiries please let me know. Thank you for your time!
Chris
Did that bearing puller have a tip on the screw that you ground off? Or did it come like that?
+Larry Tipson Hi, the puller did have a point but I ground it off for two reasons. First, and the most important reason, is that it will split the handle if not ground flat. I tried using a metal plate between the puller point and the handle but its a bit troublesome aligning everything up. Second is because with my particular model, the point made the screw portion just long enough that some chisels wouldn't fit. I actually had to chop off come of the shaft as well.
Hello interesting video
What kind of honing guide do you use for japanese chisels in the video with the shapton stones.
Amazing nice result
I have only seen Veritas and lie nielson Honing guides.
Do veritas and lie nelson fit for example some matsumura or kunikei chisels orie nomi orbatsu nomi?
Hi, for chisels, I use the Kell No.1 with large wheels mostly. For larger sizes I use the No. 2 as well. I have found these are the most reliable guides for chisels and they are probably the only ones that work as advertised for Japanese chisels.
I have a video going through the sharpening guides I use for various tools in more detail if you are interested.
Thanks for quick answe previosly i mayby go for kell no 1 then
I am aboat to buy my first set of wetstones and wich one do you recomend between
Shapton professional ha no kuromaku and naiwas sharpening stones serie or naiwas professional serie
What do you recomend of those series other than naiwa prof is a higher price than shapton here in sweden:)
You can' really go wrong with the Kell No.1 but make sure you get the larger wheels unless you use short chisels because it makes the guide much easier to use.
For stones, I would recommend the Shaptons. They are cheap (relatively), wear well, consistent in quality and they just work. A set of 1k, 5k and 8k are a good starter set. Make sure you have a method to flatten them though. That is arguably more important than the stone.
Hello again thanks for all the help I think i will go on the Shapton line
Hello, If I have used, not properly sharpened chisel, do I need to flatten entire back of it or just 1,5 cm ? I've bought used Japanese chisels on ebay and I think they may be not perfectly flat at the back. Would it be worth flattening entire surface at the back before sharpening bevel? If so what would be the best technique to do this? thanks
Hi, personally I like to flatten the whole back. Flattening the tip only makes paring a bit harder than it needs to be. The hollow of Japanese chisels should let you flatten the whole back relatively easily. When you do it, just make sure you flatten more on the edge end rather than the handle end to preserve the wedge-like profile otherwise you might find the hollow eating into the edge, and you can't tap chisels out like kanna.
The best way would be to grind away on a coarse diamond plate followed by the usual progression through grits on Waterstones. I would avoid the kanaban and abrasive approach because it is both slow and difficult to control.
Hey Sumo,
What is that drill attachment called? Is it wheel wire brush?
Thanks
+Jonathan Foong I'm not sure exactly what it is called but searching for something like "drill buffing wheel" should set you on the right track. Its not a wire brush as it is made of some kind of fiber packed together with abrasives embedded in it. It is like those 3M ScotchBrite pads but much denser and a bit rubbery feeling. You can use wire brushes and those ScotchBrite drums but this type of attachment is the one I have found to work the best without damaging the tool.
Do you have the name or a link to the rust fabric/spunge thing for the drill?
Hi, so the wheel I used was something I found at the local hardware shop a long time ago and even at the time of filming, it seemed to be out of production. I have no idea what it was called but I looked high and low for it to no avail for several years. The closest replacement I found was something made by Ichiguchi called a "delight wheel". This is a Japanese product so I have no idea if you will be able to find it outside of Japan.
I would guess the next closest thing would be a 3M abrasive wheel but those things are generally not as durable and leave deeper scratches. They'll work but you just need to do some extra work later.
Hope that helped!
@@sumokun Thanks! It does look like Misumi carries them, will have to find out if they ship to Europe.
What's the brand of the abrasive wheel? And how long do they seem to last?
+Larry Tipson I'm not sure of the brand as the sticker has fallen off but I am pretty sure the exact wheel is not available outside Japan. As for how long it lasts, I would say pretty much "years". The abrasive is embedded in the rubbery mesh so as it wears down, more abrasive is exposed. The wheel pretty much lasts as long as the wheel is not worn down to the shaft.
You can probably start by looking for abrasive wheels. Look for one that is soft but not too spongy. For example the 3M scouring pad type ones are too soft. The flappy sandpaper type ones are too aggressive. The one I use is like a medium hard rubbery/fibery compound that has abrasives embedded in it. A trip to the hardware store will probably turn up something that is useful.
What I viewed from your attempt to resurrect the chisel, I concluded that I'd rather, watch paint - DRY! WTG
Glad I could make watching paint dry a more enjoyable experience for you :)
What did you use to blacken the chisel and hoop?
+Larry Tipson It was a chemical I found locally simply called "blackening dye" but I think it is similar to gun blue.
Aloha Sumokun,
My friend just returned from Japan, and while she was there I asked her to pick up a set of regular chisels for me which she did. When I went to hone it I discovered it was set at 35 bevel angle, so all I did was to leave it at 35 and just honed them.
I normally set all my chisels to 30, and I didn't want to spend the day grinding new chisels to 30, I want o try them first.
What do you think of a 35 bevel angle? blade too thin?
Take care!
Aloha
Randy
+Randy Kobashikawa 35 degrees should be fine to use. I would just leave them and slowly lower the angle over several sharpenings. You could just lower it to 30 all in one go but it would take a bunch of time. For chopping work, 35 is a good angle. Also, depending on the chisel, 35 degrees could help to prevent chipping in the edge. I would try them as they are for a few weeks and then think about what they can't do for you.
Aloha+Sumokun ,
Yep, I used a couple of them today they seemed to work fine. I'm working with some real hard wood (Brazilian Cherry) cleaned up some mortises seemed ok to me, think I'll just leave it and see what happens.
Take care!
Aloha
Randy
I have a question, hope you could help. I got here a chisel that has a sticker that's showing two leaves. Is ouchi the only maker that uses the logo? Much thanks.
Ouchi do use a two leaves type logo but I think they always stamped their name on the blade. I do remember seeing another maker using a leaf type logo but I can't remember who or exactly hat it looked like. I just remember seeing it and going hey, that's like Ouchi's logo but it isn't an Ouchi.
That's informative. Thanks for the response!
Great video! I would like to ask though, what do you think of the Fujikawa chisels from japan woodworker? And also the Astage chisels on Amazon? Thank you.
Hi, I personally think the Fujikawa chisels are pretty basic and although serviceable, I would save up for a better set knowing what I do now. You aren't going to be replacing chisels that often so I would recommend you buy something of higher quality because in the long run, you will be able to trust the tool to do its job and also enjoy it more.
The Astage chisels are something I would avoid. They are laminated, yes, but they don't have the same construction of a traditional Japanese chisel.
Sumokun im on a budget so $250 is probably the most I want to spend on a set. Which of these three would you recommend most? The Fujikawa chisels I mentioned, the Japan Woodworker brand ones, or the Yataro brand?
Well if your choice is strictly between those three, then Fujikawa would be my choice.
However, I would personally not buy any of those. First the JW brand and the Yataro brand are pretty much the same chisel and are way overpriced. They are mass produced low quality chisels which can be had for under half that price over here. I have a bunch of them because they are the best throwaway-level chisels I could find. My thoughts on the Fujikawa ones have been covered above.
Now Japanese chisels are not something you want to get into if you are on a budget simply because they are inherently expensive tools. For your budget I would seriously consider going for a nice set of LN or something because they are decent quality and have a good resale value if you decide you don't like them. Japanese chisels at this price point are a bit hit and miss in general. You would also do well to consider what a "set" of chisels means to you. Do you want a set of 10 to cover all the scenarios? Or do you want to get say 3 to cover the work you mostly do? You can see the difference in budget per chisel of those two scenarios.
You might also want to consider buying used chisels. Yes, there is the overhead of hunting them down but you should be able to put together a set for less than the Fujikawas and also have the same or better quality.
I get the urge to go and get some chisels right now (I was in the same situation when I first started) but I would really recommend you save for a smaller number of good quality chisels.
Sumokun first of all I want to give you a big thanks for having the patience to answer my questions in great detail. I’m going to take your advice and find some used ones on eBay. Do you have any tips on buying used on eBay?
Sumokun hi so I took your advice and got some chisels used on eBay for very cheap. Can you tell me what you think about them?
rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282852499036
rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282851669550
rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282852500682
Their pictures are in their descriptions. Thank you
Yes, how do you blacken the chisel, what chemicals do you use?
Hi, I use "blackening liquid" which is a local product marketed specifically for blackening tools. I am not really sure where to get it outside of Japan and I am not sure what the active chemicals are so I can't help you there but it might be an idea to try a cold blue solution if you can get some of that.
@@sumokun thanks.
I have managed to find the chemicals.
@@sumokun on a slightly different note, I wonder if you can direct me to any sites that supply 左久作 knives, or of similar quality, I am interested in finding a good quality whittling blade.
Nice job. What's your procedure for blackening?
Thanks. I used a "blackening chemical" that is available over here from hobby blacksmith shops and some tool shops.It is probably similar (just a guess because there are no indications on the bottle) to cold bluing or gun bluing solution. You should be able to find a similar product where you live. Birchwood Casey Perma Blue is probably the most well known brand.
Sumokun Thanks, I thought it might be something like that.
+Devon Curtis Hello, stay away from BC Perma Blue for the sake of your health! ;)
Haha, well even water is dangerous if you breathe too much of it in. If you are using chemicals like Perma Blue then I assume you are smart enough to use the correct protective gear.
+Sumokun Well, u could do the blueing of course and take adequate measures, but the real problem is the abrasion that inevitably will occur when the chisel is used, most importantly when honed. The structure of Selenium for example allows it to travel through your skin... U do not gave to ingest or inhale. The black on new chisels is an other kind of iron oxide, whereas BC-type products create a coat of heavy metal compounds, such as Antimony. The stuff you're using creates toxic waste and is a serious medical issue. All this for the sake of black DYE? Also, please not that the rust-repelling effect is not the same quality than for forge black, i.e. iron oxide. I bet the traditional carpenters of Japan did not use water-soluble-Selenium-based agents ;p otherwise, great work. I have restored a similar chisel and it turned out just fine thanks to your instructions.
Just out of curiosity, was this video a commission, and did you get payed by the minute? Very little actual work being shown, and quite a lot of over-detailed information.
+ArcAiN6 Unfortunately, no I don't get paid by the minute :p You've probably noticed from all my other videos but I don't do this to entertain people that drop by. I'm trying to provide information on whatever it is I'm covering so it would be kind of pointless if there were no details included. The great thing about the internet by the way is that you can choose what you want to watch/see and if you don't like it, move along ;)
Very good except for the frequency with which you said "basically".
Firstly I hope you are well and find time to create new content; I greatly benefited from your videos and enjoyed the western and japanese synergism.
Secondly a few question regarding steel hardness, morticing and mortice chisels and smiths you'd recommend.
We spoke before regarding Matsumura chisels, a brand common in the west and who makes mukoumachi (?) nomi but I was wondering if Japanese mortise chisels made for the traditional, knowledgeable and discerning woodworkers in Japan are normally still made with white paper steel - being so hard surely it's not the best option? In the UK we traditionally sharpen with a convex bevel too; is this something you do/have seen, as it certainly is more efficacious? I love the smaller size of Japanese chisels and that they are hand forged and that is not so common anymore here. Are there any smiths in particular who make high quality mortise chisels?
Hi, I'm trying to make some new videos but my bench decided to take itself apart and I am changing job right now so things are getting a bit hectic :p
Mortise chisels, and chisels in general, are made with White steel in Japan. You can get Blue steel ones but they are not the norm. I am not sure of the reason why White steels are so prevalent over the Blues, but I don't think hardness is the deciding factor. Convex bevels are a big no-no here in Japan simply because it is more difficult to achieve a consistently sharp edge with efficiency. I plan to make a video explaining the reasoning behind this but at the core of it is the fact that to abrade the edge of a convex bevelled blade, you need to either abrade it at precisely the same angle as the previous sharpening or slightly steeper. This is very hard to do freehand and the result is that you will wear in a steeper and steeper bevel angle over time unless you grind down the meat of the bevel, which is a waste of time since the edge (which is what matters) is not being abraded. By maintaining a flat bevel and stone, you abrade both the body and edge of the tool in one shot and if you practice this, you will get good enough so that you can get a sharp edge with minimal fuss and most importantly, consistently. For mortise chisels a double bevel to help penetration but retain edge strength is beneficial but it is not something that is done commonly in Japan as far as I know.
As for quality mortise chisel smiths... Just about any quality maker of standard chisels produces good mortise chisels so I would just get what is convenient. Personally I have a set of old Ouchi ones that have a shank finish/shape I have not seen elsewhere which I love but it doesn't look like they are made anymore.
As for technique, the Japanese teach against prying simply because it is sure to dull/damage the edge, regardless of what chisel you are using. First you should never drive a chisel so deep as to get it stuck in the work. If you do get it stuck, either tap the work to release the chisel like a kanna blade from the dai, or gently wiggle the chisel sideways (along the width of the blade) to work it out. If you pry when it is stuck, the very edge will either snap or bend and the edge will not hold up as well as it should. You can "pry" to lever out loose chips however. Just don't pry when the edge is driven deep in the work piece. A mortise chisel is chunky in its section so that it doesn't bend when levering loose chips out of a deep hole the same width as the chisel. The edge strength is the same as a standard bench chisel (providing the bevel geometry is the same of course).
Hope that helped!
Good luck dude!
Good 5 minute video compressed into 26 minutes!!
+Philip Duffy You're welcome ;)
鑿のカツラ（下がり輪）を入れる時は「木殺し」と言って柄を叩いて潰します。柄を削っていれるのはダメです。柄を叩いて潰して入れると後で木が膨らんで抜けにくになります。
はい、おっしゃる通りですが、このノミの柄が古くて乾燥していて、叩いて木殺しをすると割れる可能性大だったので、削りました。こういった場合、多少削るのもありだと思います。
Chuk, check your spam folder again. I have sent you a PM. I don't think you got it. Another great vid. Just in time too. I just bought a few used J-chisels.
Haha, yes indeed it was in my spam folder. I just sent you a reply :)
Somokun, sorry to bother you.
If you had the choice between these three sets of chisels (1/4", 1/2", 1", 1.25" 1.5" five set), what would be your choice?
Nomikatsu, Marukatsu, or Tokutaro?
These sets come in a 10 or 5 sets or individual piece, are you familiar with these names at all?
To be honest, they all look the same, some color difference, I can't tell them apart...
www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Japanese-Chisels/departments/384/
Thanks. R
+ronin4711 Well, they are all hardware store level chisels. If I had to choose a set, I would go for the Marukatsu. The Tokutaro are just bottom line chisels made in the Japanese style. Nomikatsu are again, low grade chisels and these ones are HSS so they aren't really suited for general work. I have a set of white steel Nomikatsu as beaters and they work OK but they do chip. I would pick the Marukatsu simply because the other two choices are not so great.
You should really think this through though. Why not just get 3 chisels of a higher quality? Do you really need all 5 sizes right now? Also, the higher end of these chisels gets you into LN territory. What is wrong with a set of LNs? Lots of people have had good results from LN and even if you find they aren't for you, you can sell them again for a minimal loss. Japanese tools don't keep their value anywhere near as well.
IMHO, it really is a waste of money to go buy substandard Japanese tools. You're probably looking at Japanese tools thinking how they will cut better but the truth is that this performance level only comes after a certain price point and since Japanese tools are relatively expensive, if you are considering a lower end Japanese tool, I would advise you to just skip them and go for a quality Western tool instead.
Sumokun
Wakarimass.
By now, I think I got IT!
When I'll be ready I think I'll concentrate on 3 pieces
(probably 6, 9 and 18 mm, unless you suggest different sizes) and try my luck with the best I can buy, hardware store quality, I have plenty but my heart is set on a good Japanese set, I'm not in hurry.
If it's OK with you, I'll be asking your opinion maybe a couple of more times...name brand I'm not familiar with.
Again, I appreciate your candid comments.
Domo arigato...
+ronin4711 Hi, yup, sure no problem. I'll always be here if you have questions ;)
Size is a personal matter and its something you need to figure out in the course of working the way you do. A Basic set though would be something like 6mm, 12mm and maybe 24mm. Depending on your requirements, a 3mm is very useful too. You could even just get some really cheap chisels for the less used sizes for starters and slowly replace them as you have the funds etc. The bottom line is basically don't spend too much money on lower quality tools. Buy once and buy good ;)
Cool, I heard once the expression, "if the expensive tool is good, buy it, it only hurts once"...
Again, you're a wonderful source of help, I'll be happy to help you if I can from this side of the pond (US).
Best, R.
Sumokun
Blue steel vs white steel?
Matsamura chisels, and the name has a very good and reputable blacksmith for 200 years.
Plus, it's available locally, I'll probably buy ONE for now to try (12mm or 1/2", it's the most I use), most of the names you mentioned are from Japan only...
Your opinion?
Thanks, R.
Hi there, long time...
Somokun, I have a question in your expertise, Japanese chisels: I've been salivating about Japanese chisels for long time, the real problem is that most of them are very expensive to extreme...
Now, on eBay you can find a set of 3 from $50 to mega $$.
it is pretty obvious to me that the most expensive ones, you're paying more for a named craftsman and that may be significant for you but for me, it's all Greek, if you know what I mean?
I don't have expectancy from a cheap one to perform like top of the line, my question is: how are those cheap made not folded or maybe machine mass produced?
On the other hand, what is a decent price for a set of(1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 inch) 4 chisels that will not send me to the "poor house"? If there is a list of names that you could recommend, I'll very much appreciate it.
Thanks ...
+ronin4711 Hi there!
Chisels really do range from stupid cheap to ridiculous, and as a general rule, I would go for something in the range of 5000 yen to 10000 yen per chisel (about 18mm size, and price if bought in Japan). The cheaper ones in this range will do the job but they might have some problems like with chipping or general finish quality etc. Moving on to a chisel in the middle of that range and up, you will pretty much get something that you can depend on and it will be a good, solid tool that is pretty much as good as it gets. If you go below that range, then you run into the hardware store type tools and they have their place (I use some for the rougher work) but as a main set, I would try and get a smaller number of chisels but of higher quality. These are not always machine made and you'd be surprised at the number that are actually hand made but you can expect the materials used to be of lower quality, the lower end ones are mass produced by machine from pre-laminated steel, and heat treating might not be so consistent. Now if you go to the super high end, you are mainly paying for collectors and brand name value. Some people want that in a tool but if you are going to use the tool, then something in that range is not going to give you greatly increased performance but you really get the fuzzy feeling of owning a piece of "art".
For a set of 4 chisels in those sizes, I would expect to spend around 30-35k yen for a nice set. This is pretty expensive when compared to Western chisels but I don't really think the two are so comparable. Names or brands really vary depending on where you live and what you can get but my personal favourite are Kanetake chisels. They offer a good price to performance ratio and they are usually in stock. They fall in the higher end of the recommended price range above. As for brands available overseas, the only one I am semi-familiar with and would recommend is Masashige. The others I have seen are either of low quality, overpriced or just plain ridiculous in price. Iyoroi is really borderline in terms of what I would consider for a main set of chisels. They are cheap though. Ouchi are good but they are overpriced in the West, Koyamaichi are the lower end of what I would go for and I would personally try and spend a bit more to get a better tool. Tasais are crazy expensive in the West... I don't know about everything that is available in the West but the stuff I have come across usually has an issue in the price/quality balance.
Used chisels are really where bargains can be had because they are stupid cheap, and they are usually (if you know what you are looking for) of decent quality; usually around the lower to mid end of the recommended price range above in terms of quality. Of course they will need work and they don't come with the satisfaction of owning a new tool but as users, I really think you should consider them if you are wanting to try out Japanese chisels on a budget.
Anyway, hope that helped and feel free to ask if you have any more questions ;)
+Sumokun
WOW, my first word for this, it gave me some "work" to do and you're right on the money price wise.
As for even the first recommended set 35K yen is $287 for a four set is in the range of the High End of American chisels by Lie Nielsen and such which are considered very good quality, I personally never tried one, much less to compare it to a Japanese quality chisel.
As for the Tsai Damascus pattern, at $4085 for a 10 set (498,170 yen), it's museum quality and should kept there, it's NOT FOR USE! and I don't care how rich someone is to have such a set...yes, that fuzzy feeling...I'd say butterflies in my stomach rather...
In any way, I saw quite a few times on Ebay used chisels but, some are in bad shape and the ones that aren't are priced ridiculously mind you...besides, you don't "really" know what you're getting and sometimes it's "a cat in the bag" as we say here (a bad thing)!
Somokun, now that I have an idea (not so sure yet) what to look for I wanted to thank you kindly for your effort to respond in such detail.
You are a great pen pal and a quality craftsman.
Be well, R.
I checked also on eBay for Used chisels, there is this Happy-From-Japan that he's advertising sets from "old craftsman" sets in deplorable condition and used to the Max blades, the prices... well, kinda:
"a cat in a bag" looks like...
Just as a gag, wanted to share with you something ridiculous (in my opinion), this person is selling these chisels (trying) for years now:
www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Rare-Japanese-Ebony-ICHIHIRO-Oiire-Nomi-Bench-Chisel-Set-Museum-Quality/290883015254?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33876%26meid%3D21678517e119447590d15756f8885155%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D271685536864
+ronin4711 I haven't tried a Lie Nielsen chisel yet (although I do own one), but I do have a LN spokeshave with A2 blade and I was pretty disappointed in the blade. It would chip or crumble when used in tough woods. Even my Wood River block plane with it's Chinese steel didn't degrade as much when used on the same piece of wood. My Japanese blades didn't even flinch. This was after about 5 strokes with each. I actually bought the LN chisel for testing but just haven't gotten round to it yet. I so want to like the LN chisels because they look well made and they are cheaper than Japanese chisels by quite a margin but what really matters for me is how they perform and handle.
Ebay can be a bit of a gamble but after you get an eye for chisels, you will find you can easily spot a chisel that is at least of decent quality, even if it is covered in rust. I haven't checked ebay for a while now since I have better places to shop but I am pretty sure there are some good chisels out there waiting to be snapped up.
The Tasai damascus are expensive in Japan as well but nowhere near the price the sellers overseas are asking. They are more of a presentation piece than a full out user tool and the damascus pattern is actually detrimental to their ease of sharpening. The wrought iron ones are also not so great because they are too soft and can't take as much hard work when compared to a modern iron.
Those Ichihiro's are also not so far out of what you would expect to pay in Japan. Ichihiro's do perform well but they are now collectors items. I think he was one of the first (if not the first) to introduce science into his chisel making so his heat treat was much more consistent and of a high quality compared to other smiths of the era. The finish on his chisels are also impeccable. Nowadays though, a lot of smiths use metallurgy to their advantage so the heat treat is quite similar across a lot of smiths.
+Sumokun
I never used LN chisels, I own a 4 1/2 plane by LN and I think this is the Rolls Royce of planes (IMHO).
Wanted to bring to your attention another company that came out with a "new" kind of metal for blades called: PM-V11 by Veritas from Lee Valley tools, they have chisels and handplane blades made by this metal, here's a link for you to read about:
www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504
I also wanted your opinion about this, I think I know the answer to it but I'll wait patiently to your response, thanks so far...R
www.ebay.com/itm/252269033497?euid=dcf7feb354094b9bb34499f0ad239f36&cp=1
+ronin4711 Hi, LN definitely have some nice bodies but I am unimpressed with their blades so far. Maybe mine was a bad sample but considering their reputation for quality, I am surprised they didn't catch it in testing. After all we are paying a premium for them being good out of the box...
I actually have a PMV11 chisel from LV, again for testing, but I haven't used it yet. It looks promising as a steel but the price is up there with some nice Japanese chisels so I actually look forward to seeing how they compare. I also have a couple of plane blades in PMV11 but I haven't used them enough to form an opinion yet. Initial impressions are good although I can't say I'm a fan of how it sharpens.
If you haven't realised yet, I actually plan to do a video on my comparisons ;) I have a whole bunch of chisels to test and not much free time so basically I am just waiting for some time to do it. I don't know what the outcome will be and I hope to be surprised.
The ebay chisels you posted are firmly in the budget category. I wouldn't bother with them unless you want something cheap that you can use for really nasty jobs.
i restored a Japanese chisel from ebay and the tip was curved i had to remove almost all of the aura to fix it
Hi, yeah sometimes chisels can be really badly maintained but they will work fine once you get them flat again. With the narrower sizes, a curve along the length of the blade can indicate the previous owner was prying with the tool and bent it and you can usually carefully bend it back to almost straight and grind the rest out as long as there are no cracks in the steel. Curving along the width of the tool usually indicates bad sharpening skill and you just have to grind away until it is flat..
hair slicing chisel... wow :)
It was only taken up to 8000 and if you look in the reflection of the bevel, you can see it isn't even so there is lots of room for improvement :)
Sumokun holy crikey. I'm literally pulling my hair out.
Chuk, you may want to check your spam again. I think I need your personal email. :-)
Test z włosem - szczęka mi opadła
Thanks! The blade was sharpened to 8000 but there are still a lot of imperfections. I need to work on my technique more.
An interesting and instructive video - what I watched.
Unfortunately the too many "uhhms" made me give up. I do apologise, but they became intrusive. I started counting the "uhmms" and not listening to the good information.
We can see the state of the chisel. Get on with the restoration.
+Paul Zarek The hardest part of a restoration is the diagnosis rather than the actual polishing etc. I am trying to give people pointers on what to look for when embarking on a restoration project rather than how to polish a piece of steel.
This is sorry. He shows you all the simple shit and then the hard stuff you need to know (like: "blackin' with chemicals") he says nothing. I think I know how to use a buffing wheel. Sad
+Jack Schlachter lol, tbh I think slapping some blackening chemicals onto a chisel is easier than using a buffing wheel. The reason I didn't tell you exactly what I did was because the product I used is not available outside Japan so the information would be useless to you anyway. I also think you took away the wrong info from the video if you think using a buffing wheel was the main part. The bulk of the info I think you should have been picking up is in the initial selection of a chisel to tune up and also some fixes to the common issues that appear in used chisels, i.e. the condition of the handle and also the mushrooming of the hoop.
+Sumokun touche'
+JWG@Large Hi there! For used chisels, auctions or forums is definitely the way to go. The reason I recommend you stay away from cracked handles or other defective tools is because they are not worth the expense and time to fix them. There will always be a similar chisel for sale sooner or later that will be in better condition. You can buy replacement handles and hoops etc but that is an extra cost you don't need to (or shouldn't need to) pay up. The same goes for rusty or bent tools. Just wait a bit and another one will pop up for the same price but in better condition.
Now for the quality of these tools, in general, they are good but not great tools. I have looked over literally thousands of used chisel listings on auctions both in Japan and Overseas over the years and I have amassed probably over 100 used chisels that were sold as "generic used chisel". I can say that just about all of those listings were for "good" or lesser quality tools. When you see a great chisel, the bidding will go up accordingly and only in the very rare cases will you actually get a bargain on a great chisel, mostly in the form of a hidden gem in a set of chisels. The good chisels can be had for peanuts though and there are hundreds of them so that is why I recommend staying away from defective ones. From the 100 or so chisels I have personally gotten, exactly 2 were great chisels. One was a gouge by Takahashi and the other was a 9mm one by Osahiro (or Nagahiro depending on how you pronounce it). All the others were definitely in the good or less range. If you are buying from a Japanese seller on ebay, then the chances of you getting a great tool is just about zero. These people aren't stupid and in general I find they only sell the rejects they can't sell in Japan on ebay. As with all Japanese tools though, it is not so easy to determine if a tools is a high quality one or not from looks. The bottom line is that if it works OK for you then its a good tool so I wouldn't stress too much about the brand name quality etc.
+Sumokun Being and avid woodworker, replacing the handles and hafts are such simple fun jobs. Especially for socket style chisels and you are able to make it exactly how you like it. From a strict restoration standpoint I can more understand your view but otherwise, socket chisel handle are simple even without a lathe.
+Nick C Hi, if you have the time to replace a handle and you like that kind of work, then sure, that's a great way to go but my issue is that there are so many used tools out there that you are almost certain to find a similar tool in better condition for a similar price. No point in buying up a damaged tool when you can get an undamaged one for the same price. Japanese chisels also pose a bit more of a problem because the hardware (hoops and skirts) are both not easy to find in the correct size and relatively expensive. Socket chisels are a different story since they can be rehandled with no extra hardware. Personally I like the process of replacing the handles on nicer chisels but I wouldn't recommend a beginner looking for a tool to use try it on a Japanese chisel.
too much talking