I have an interesting request. Let's imagine the Battle of Sunda Strait on the night of 28 February - 1 March 1942. Then swap all the ABDA ships with World Of Warships Super Ships. USS Houston with USS Annapolis, HMAS Perth with HMS Edgar and HNLMS Evertsen with HSwMS Dalarna. All the new ships have Autoloading guns and mid 1950s radar and firecontrol. Would the ABDA flotilla survive an entire Japanese Armada?
@@legiran9564also, I feel the pain of the Dutch fleet. For the Dutch mariner who survived the Japanese Empire, which means surviving a long sentence of PoW, a rare and remarkable event no doubt, and after release from PoW, learning of the success of the submarine flotilla whatever.
Most of the battleships in WWII, where WWI era ships. Dreadnoughts and super dreadnoughts where the staple until the late 1930s and into the 1940s with the develop of "modern" fast battleships. So it's all good there. :) Edit: Ah, the Danton. A semi-dreadnought. Basically cheap dreadnought. The turbines are a huge advantage...nevermind the vast arsenal of guns (This is what seperated the Danton class from true dreadnoughts...not "all big gun".) The 3in guns with HE would burn everything they hit. Larger guns probably massive overpenetration before detonating. And AP shells...useless.
Having toured the last remaining WW1 battleship, the USS Texas (BB35). She doesn't even need even need to shoot, she can run them down, speed of 21 knots and an armored bow.
@@covertcounsellor6797 The trouble with taking Missouri back to this era is fuel. Once she exhausted her fuel oil there would be no way to replace it. At least Texas was coal powered though I don't know if they would have the extensive stocks required to keep Texas going, that's a lot of coal for this period.
Poor ol Danton could only do 18.5 knots. Though in an era where speeds were single digits she's a speed boat as long as her coal stocks hold out. Could the industry of this time produce enough quality coal to keep her operational? They could not replace any ammunition
@@miketogwell1000 "Hell, a ww1 era destroyer could have.' Was literally the first thought I had when I read the video title. Actual metal (even if not armor proper) and exploding munitions are a hell of a thing. Though neither of those would really be the kicker. That would be the engines. A ww1 destroyer would simply be able to dictate the battles terms and thus be allowed to fight it on whatever terms they wanted. Personally I wonder what range something like Victory would need to be at to puncture the splinter proof stuff on a destroyer with their solid shot. My guess is somewhere around standard fighting range for the ship, on the closer end of this spectrum. Since those guns were far more powerful than they were accurate and that accuracy was what really dictated the ranges they fought at, rather than the effective range. Even at the Battle of Manilla Bay the accuracy of the USN ships is something like 1% (this is somewhat misleading due to how the battle was fought, but not that misleading). A fact that was still pretty true even in ww1. To put it simply anyways. It wasn't until the advent of RADAR guided guns that happened right at the end of the big gun era, that this truly changes. Regardless of how much better the optical rangefinders had gotten. addendum: Metal that isn't proper armor is far weaker than a lot of people seem to think. Just look at the damage done to the Little Willie tank prototype simply by trying to tow it. (around the pistol port on the front). As stated by the Tank Museum: "...and you can see the damage at the front where somebody tried to tow the tank by threading a line through one of its windows. It’s not made of armour plate, only boilerplate after all."
An iron clad could probably do it if it had the right circumstances and not overwhelmed. But that's pushing it. A few more might be needed to prevent boardings. Which is how I could see a flotilla defeating a single ironclad.
It takes nearly 16 min to say "Obviously" The technological gap is so huge as to make the question dumb. As long as her coal stocks and ammunition held out the Danton (the last French Pre-Dreadnought actually built after HMS Dreadnought) would rule the oceans in this time period
Even La Glorie, would have been a bad choice, given how overpowered it was against Napoleonic era ships of the line. Much least, one of the most overpowered of the pre dreadnoughts to serve in the French navy. 😊
The Franco-Spanish Fleet trying to incorporate a World War I Pre-Dreadnought would be like a squadron of Spitfires from the Battle of Britain trying to work alongside an F-15 Eagle... They can't work together. The Danton wouldn't even have to get up steam; her guns would shatter the British Fleet long before they got into range.
The real question to be asked is whether Danton would even need to bother using its main guns. Its 9 inch guns and defensive guns were faster-firing and entirely capable of wrecking wooden ships.
@@alexandarvoncarsteinzarovi3723 I didn't say they wouldn't use them, just that they probably wouldn't need to use them. They have them so they might as well! :)
I hypothesize that a single 12 inch broadside could sink a wooden first rate. High explosive of this caliber vs wood! X4. They wouldn't last long if they did.
@@jonathanallard2128 My point was merely that their more rapid-firing secondaries and defensive armaments could probably do it too, and probably more quickly, and that there's really not much the enemy fleet can do about it. The smart play might be to save the 12" guns for the ships that try to run while the secondaries and defensive guns tear up everything that's closer. The only limits the battleship would have would be its supply of ammunition and fuel, and eventually spare parts. As for fuel, coal was theoretically obtainable.
@@fembotheather3785 Oh I didn't try to disagree with you! In fact I 100% agree with your comment I just wanted to add a new and different hypothesis, see if you'd agree with this one. But yeah for sure the secondaries only would shred them wooden ships no problem.
Pinnacle of engineering? The Danton was obsolete when it was launched. The British, Americans, and Japanese already had dreadnoughts at that point. Danton was a late pre-dreadnought.
We aint try'na hate here, but aint the of the video the fact that a ww1 era battleship (no matter how ugly, or obsolete (I prefer Japanese Dreadnoughts, including the Ise's to a point)) went back to 1805, it would still be a pinnacle of engineering. That class is also pinnacle of what a POS BB looks like in my opinion.
To be fair, the Dantons are extremely powerful pre dreadnoughts. They have their four main 12 inch guns, but also twelve 9,4 inch guns. They're powerful to the extent that they have a good shot against the early dreadnoughts, albeit limited by speed. If I ever had to take a pre dreadnought to fight against a dreadnought, I'd probably take the a Danton, Satsuma or Lord Nelson.
Danton was designed as a pre dreadnoughts, because France believed after Tsushima, that the combat ranges would remain relativly short. At which point this configuration would have a higher rate of fire, and higher broadside weight compared to the early dreadnoughts, like Dreadnought, Nassau class, South Carolina, and being well able to overpower those. However, as we now know in hindsight, the assumption about combat ranges would be incorrect, and the 9.4" guns would fall behind on longer ranges, compared to fewer 12" guns.
We saw less extreme version of this during the Opium Wars and Crimean War, where iron clads completely obliterated older more numerous fleets of wooden ships of the line.
Yi Sun Shin's Turtle ships proved that 2 turtle ships and 11 Regular ships could wreck the 300 combined warships Japanese fleet, 300 years before first steam powered iron clads exists.
If it’s HMS Warspite she’d take out all three fleets, then proceeded to intervene in the Battle of Waterloo. How? Damned if I know. She’s HMS Warspite.
HMS Warspite or more affectionately known as the grand old lady, snipped an Italian battleship at a distance of 24 kilometres. She was also present to provide naval gun fire during operations conducted in Italy and during the Normandy landings. She's a relatively well decorated battleship in the Royal Navy
@@johnplummer4785 Warspite had a steering casualty during the Battle of Jutland. Somehow the repairs didn’t quite take, and HMS Warspite developed a troubling tendency to ‘have steering issues’ which invariably had her heading straight towards the nearest enemy ship, irrespective of what the captain had ordered. Her final steering issue happened on the way to the razor blade factory. Check Drachinifel’s Guides on the Queen Elizabeth class battleships and HMS Warspite. Drach does an incredible job.
@@danieljones7843 no. Warspite would've seal clubbed the poor thing HMS Warspite is a queen Elizabeth class super dreadnought. In her ww1 configuration, she had four, 15 inch guns in twin gun turret configuration (giving her eight `5 inch guns), 13 inches of armor at the water belt, 7-10 inches of armor at the barbettes and 11-13 inches of armor at her gun turret. the Danton has two twin 305mm guns (one at the front and the back), twelve 240mm guns (at the sides) and sixteen 75mm guns at the lower deck. The Danton's armor at the water belt is only 7-10 inches thick, 10-13 inches of armor for the turrets and 10.5 inches of armor for the conning tower. the Danton's speed and Warspite's speed is somewhat similar at 24knts for the Warspite while 19knts for the Danton's. however, Warspite has the advantage of significantly bigger calibers whilst being able to bring all of her main guns to bare whilst the Danton can only bring half of it due to pre-dreadnought battleship designs being the way the are. if we were bringing ww2 Warspite into question, Danton would've been sniped from 20 kilometers guaranteed. The RN giulio Cesare can attest to Warspite's gunnery
There were 6 hours between the beginning of the battle and the first fighting, the Danton would try trickshots in that time and the 9.2 inch guns would shoot high explosive guns, even the 4 inch would destroy 1st rates with ease.
The one thing I wonder is, does the Danton have shell fuzes which would be armed by 2 feet thick hardwood? I think the main guns definitely and the secondaries probably would act like solid shot, go right through the ships of the line without exploding. She'd still do a tremendous amount of damage, but more along the line of holing them at or below the waterline.
Honestly, this might be the most one-sided engagement this channel has ever done. I think it's another case of bringing technology too advanced to make for an interesting engagement, despite the fact that it's only a hundred years' difference. I think this battle is where you should have sent the Civil War ironclads that went to Lepanto. Oceangoing ironclads like the _Kalamazoo_ class are resistant but not immune to cannon, have more powerful guns than a man o' war but a far lower rate of fire. But most importantly, while they were slightly slower than sailing ships, they could maneuver in any manner they chose regardless of wind.
That wouldn't make any difference. Those ships were very much closer to Admiral Nelson's ships in capability than they were to Admiral Jellico's. Armor, weapons, fire control and engines improved by orders of magnitude between the 1860s and 1910s.
@@windwalker5765 Perhaps I read your position backwards. I read it as 1860s vs 1910s and you seem to have meant it as 1800s vs 1860s. While not as dominant as the other, the 1860s were well in advance of the 1800s. Particularly the advent of the explosive shell replacing solid shot changed naval warfare.
@@Neneset Correct. But I still think it's close enough to be interesting... given the same number of ships per side (and ignoring that the US only built 4 Kalamazoo class). The ironclad breechloading guns have range, power, and shrapnel... but only 4 guns per ship, vs. 70-100 for the men of war. The ironclad has a massive maneuver and defense advantage, but any damage it takes is much harder to repair, where the carpenter can patch holes and mend sails to a greater extent. To me, it comes down to, can the men of war survive long enough to start some leaks or cause engine damage?
@@windwalker5765 Not gonna lie, it'd be more interesting to see 1880's-1890's pre-Dreads/ironclads fight a whole floating forest, no disrespect to wooden sailing ships, but at least give a noticeable difference otherwise it has to many numbers, & I'm sorry but I have a game that does that for me. Two of 'em in fact, both of them don't have wooden sailing ships either. Now if we really wanna see a fight with a huge gap of 140+ years, send the Fletcher's, Benson's, or Allen M Sumner's against those wooden sailing ships.
The difference in combat capability between the two eras is truly insane. A single WWI battleship would be largely immune to cannon fire, denting the hull plating and scratching the paint isn't going to deter a battleship. And if the BB stayed out at a couple thousand yards then few cannon balls would even manage to that little damage. Meanwhile, a ship of the line might be about 250 feet long, that's feet, not meters. meaning that a single HE shell blowing up mid ship would me a mere 125 feet, at most, from everyone on the ship. That's about 38 meters for metric people. Wooden walls and decks would provide some protection from shrapnel but would also serve to channel the blast wave down whatever deck was hit. That's easily within the kill zone of a 12" explosive shell. And while not everyone would be killed by a single hit, the damage would be severe enough, with enough casualties, that the ship hit would likely be combat ineffective... to the extent it ever was combat effective when faced with a WWI era battleship. And this doesn't count the fires started by the hot shrapnel... or the chance of powder magazines being hit. A single secondary shell (about 5" give or take) would still do massive damage, start fires, and kill lots of people. It wouldn't take too many secondary hits to guarantee that the wooden ship was either a burning and sinking wreck or bunch of floating matchsticks after a powder explosion. The WWI battleship has no concern about wind direction and can out run the sailing ships in any direction so the sailing shops can't run or outmaneuver the battleship. A WWI battleship at Trafalgar would be nothing but a simple gunnery exercise.
For once it's less a hassle since the fuel is simple coal,they can refuel anywhere. The ammo would be more bothersome ( the cannon used sac of powder so it's less difficult to make than full brass cartridge but they still would need to know what's the composition of powder in it to be able to remake them and at that time the ammo would be limited to non explosive round solid shot) The maintenance would not be so difficult for the time until the ship need to dry dock to repair the hull, or if anything of importance break if Napoleon era engineer cannot remake them good enough to replace the broken piece( they have a limited supply of spare piece and reparations material on board )
the 100mm guns on ww1 destroyers alone would decimate any wooden galleon from far outside their own gun ranges. because theyre unarmored wooden ships any shot into the magazine is an insta kill.
A few thoughts: 1. This scenario would be more realistic if the British had heard of a French super weapon, so wouldn't be caught entirely off guard. 2. The Danton would have great success if it launched brotasides from directly in front of a ship of the line as for gunnery, direction was easier to determine than distance. 3. It seems likely the Danton could defeat the British fleet without any help from the French/Spanish fleet. 4. This scenario would be much more intriguing if the French substituted several ironclad ships like those used in the American Civil War, 50 years ahead rather than 100.
The one issue with these scenarios is that it is not "what if the French had Danton", but "what if the French were given Danton, a ship from the future". The core of that issue is that this would of course appear as a supernatural event, which would shape the morale of the whole event without the ship even taking a direct role in it.
The Brit’s probably wouldn’t even consider fighting the battle if they had even the notion that they were given a distinct advantage by some supernatural entity. Clearly the cards aren’t in their favor lol.
@@andrewwilson6726 Yeah. I mean, the Brits were brave, there´s no denying that. They have attacked almost 2 times stronger foe. But they werent absolutely crazy or suicidal. If they saw something like Danton on the horizon, they would run like hell. And they would be right to do so.
@@pavelslama5543Well, it's not like they even can run from it in the first place. That ship could run down the entire fleet, even if they scattered to the wind upon seeing it.
The chasm between Napoleonic ships and warships a century later is akin to the Red Baron in his Fokker triplane taking on a modern F-35...Wouldn't last long and the Baron would not have even seen what sent him to the next world. 🤣. I expect the next vid will be ''What if the USS Gerald R. Ford took a side during the Battle of Actium ?''
An F-35's fire control radar might not actually be able to acquire Richtofen's Fokker as a target. Radars filter out _a lot_ of extraneous stuff, so they don't wind up locking onto a flock of birds of a kite or a tree.
@philcollinson328 oh, most *likely.* But the F-35 pilot is gonna have to do stuff his plane doesn't wanna do, like make gun runs, or maybe just buzz the Red Baron at Mach 2 in order to air-slap his plane apart.
I guess, that dogfight between a fokker and a f-35 would end with no one harmed. The fokker is way too slow and manouverable to get caught by any modern AA weapon and the f-35 is way too fast to get hit by the two MG08/15.
I suspect the guys commenting before have a point however ...The Baron's Fokker made of wood and paper, flying slower than an unladen bumble bee, may not even register on an F-35's instruments....If they accidentally collided, the F-35 pilot may need to employ his windscreen wiper ...and would understand why his opponent, Richthofen, had been dubbed the ''Red Baron'' ...This was a wonderful debate...And my sincere thanks to the creator of the vid (it spawned many talking points to my surprise) as well as many interesting and valued thought provoking comments ...lots of fun.
A lot of what is described here takes place pretty much exactly like that in the later installments of Taylor Anderson's alternative history "Destroyermen" series - wooden ships of the line versus steamers with armour and modern naval guns. Granted, in that case the "modern" ships are far smaller than the Danton, WW1 destroyer(s) in fact, and the wooden warships in some cases even feature crude steam propulsion, but the only chance the liners have is to somehow lure the modern steamers into range and try for a long-range broadside, going for a shotgun effect. The ability to maneuvre at will independent of the wind and having far longer range should make Danton vs Nelson's fleet a foregone conclusion. Explosive shells do a real number on ships made of oak.
Here's another thought: you're bringing in a WWI ship with a WWI naval leader. I think if anything he's gonna tell Nelson and the opposing French ships to stop quarreling like children and focus on keeping central Europe in check, and one salvo would be more than enough to make both sides cooperate.
Here's another thing to think about: the French Admiral's oaths are to the _Third Republic._ Is he going to be any friend of Bonaparte? Would he even be willing to _collude_ with the English (remember, he has just come through WWI, he was allied with the English), in the hopes that the might of _Danton_ can bring about the end of Napoleon _faster?_ Possibly he might set himself up as Emperor, or more likely, bust out some history books and textbooks on the Third Republic (there'll be _some_ literature aboard) and try to kickstart things, along with the Industrial Revolution. After all, he's gonna need good machinery to repair Danton. Wear and tear will be its enemies.
Surely Nelson with 9x 16" guns is going to turn the Danton into scrap metal in minutes, it even used Trafalgar type point blank firing tactics against Bismark.
Did I inspire this when I said you may as well sent in HMS Dreadnought in your Victory vs Vikings vid or is it pure coincidence? Btw if you're still taking requests I'd still like to see a modern infantry regiment taking on Gallipoli
Realistically there is nothing at Trafalgar that could stop it. Its armor is too thick & the ships couldn't withstand its fire. And even if they SOMEHOW ran out of ammo, it could just ram every enemy ship in sight.
I mean, what are they supposed to do? The maximum range of any one of those kanons would be considered close range to a ww1 Batelship. Efective canon range would be considered closer than point blank. Its also faster. They could not even shot at it. They would anoy it at most even if the could.
This is surely the most one-sided fight on this videos' serie, it wouldn't be a battle, but an execution, a single 305 shell would've wrecked every ship of the line of those times. The Danton would've won single handed the battle, the only job for the french fleet would've been to rescue the (few) survivors.
yes one salvo of shells the entire royal navy is flaming matchsticks. shells could be devastating just look at the bsttle of sinope in 1853 when the russians wiped out a turkish a turkish squadron.
Let’s make this short: The monitor and merrimack shot eachother for three hours to zero effect and both went home. A battleship has more armor everywhere than both combined, plus absurd firepower. Yes. A single WW1 battleship could simultaneously fight every navy in the world at that time and it’s only concern would be ammo.
the rea question what if a ww1 German battleship arrived instead of a french one. a three way battle could be intresting especially if it travels to prussia.
This video is so hilariously random. The fact that it takes itself so seriously and even ends with a "dramatic narration" makes it even better Can't wait for "Could a Single Avro Vulcan Win the American Revolution?" next
Knowing the British, I would have to believe that they would just wait until night and sneak a group aboard the ship and take over and then use the ship against the French
Not likley. There is allways somone on watch on a ww1 batelship. A sail ship is also to big tho pull up to the side without anyone noticing.....even during night. The compliment of the sail ship is also to small. Probably around 1/8th.
@@Manuelslayor The Danton had a crew of about 850. That's roughly the same as a first rate ship of the line, but with a far smaller complement of marines. Automation has it's advantages ! It didn't have radars or night vision aids (they hadn't been invented) so would actually be very vulnerable while moored up at night. Have a look at the actual history of Royal Navy cutting-out operations. There were hundreds of them, and they had it down to a fine art, to the point wherethey could usually take a ship with a boarding party about 20% of the size of the target's crew, and often under the noses of shore-based forts. The first thing the target ship would know was when their decks were suddenly swarming with Royal Marines and sailors - even having guard-boats out rarely worked as a defence.
@@seanbissett-powell5916 The Danton would have better small arms, they would also have sentries as mentioned before but most importantly they would have searchlights. So yeah, a big hard no to any British attempt at boarding it xD.
Nelson's plan was called 'Line ahead'. He split his fleet into two and aimed at the Franco Spanish fleet at right angles. The aim was to cross the T and fire broadsides down the length of the enemies ships
Even HMS Warrior vs Danton would be one sided. Breech loading QF rifles and Harvey or Krupp armor are huge game changers. Even Dantons 75mm gun outrange Warriors main artillery. And Hail Of Fire works in that time period as shown by Japan vs Russia in 1905
Maybe something a bit more... In comprehension? I mean, a semi-dreadnought with large plates of Krupp style steel armor, and guns that could outrange the nelsonian era ships multiple times over, which don't even need to hit to cause catastrohic damage... Yeah, it's a given. I mean, it may even be better for Danton to get a near miss, than a direct hit, as a direct hit would likely not even set off the fuse on most of the heavy shells, causing them to travel through the hull, creating a large, localized swath of destruction. Which while bad enough... If say, a 12 inch round exploded in the water next to, or even worse, under a SoTL, it could likely just reduce the underwater hull to splinters, and maybe even set off the magazine. Say, instead... a SoTL vs... Monitor? Or... if Warrior could defeat the french fleet alone? Sure, those ships are still at a HUGE advantage, being steam powered, with thick (relatively) armor, and armed with large shell guns... but a small, laminated armor ironclad VS a full SoTL is at least more... reasonable. And, one large ironclad VS a fleet of 33 SoTLs I think is also reasonably stacked for an interesting conversation.
Love these Scenerios and even if they're one sided thats my kind of entertainment. I had a scenerio in mind. Napoleon returns from Elba with his 870 men but they only have baisc late 1800 and early 1900s technology. No planes, No tanks, no ships. just bolt action rifles, Basic artillery, and machine guns of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Only his 870 men (The soilders that went to exile with him) can have these new technologies. When he gets to the battle of waterloo or any other early battle his other armies can only use their era appropriate weapon. Would Napoleon be able to use the Quality and force the Coalition to let him stay in France or would the sheer qunitity in numbers of the Coalition send him back to Exile? Lets just say when in Exile, Napoleon gets a Console command research cheat technology or Elba becomes a modern early 1900 modern nation idk
@tangilehenaff7954 For a "theoretical" on this you might try a read of the "Destroyermen" series (start with book #1 "Into The Storm" first). Ramming with a destroyer could go badly as the old ships of the line were incredibly well built thick "wooden walls" and even a salvo of smooth bore cannon at point blank range could do serious damage to an even modern destroyer.
2:24 - Economic blockage? Ha! Modern Britain can blockade and isolate itself from the rest of Europe just by it's self in 2024........ (yes i'm a Brit and yes this is sarcasm.)
The steam powered warship with rifled breach loading QF guns will simply stay out of range by staying up wind and fire aimed single shots of explosive rounds at the waterline. From her 75mm terciaries. The rounds will punch through the hulls before detonating so the first few hits will kill the majority of a wooden ships crew and likely cause fires
That's silly requesting a battleship. A late 19th century Monitor, like the Arkansas, could disable most of the fleet. Even the relatively weak WWI Wickes class destroyer could have taken on the fleet by itself. Cruise by the fleet at 2000 meters, punch a few 4" rounds thru each Brit ship, while using the 3" AA gun to make things interesting on deck. Make a second pass to take care of those running away, then call in the French navy to pick up survivors.
Ships may be one thing, but the crew and its training and morale is another major factor, as it was in the original battle of Trafalgar. As a what-if scenario, I think it's not that interesting, because it goes beyond every possible realistic scenario. obviously placing a ww1 era battleship, an experienced elite crew and a master tactition would mean that every factor and traits the french actually DID have is turned upside down. The original battle was a close call, the french morale and skills somewhat lacking compared to the british, was likely a deciding factor.
Of course! Fire power, armour, speed, maneuverability...... It wouldn't even need to use any shells, the classical greek triream technique of ramming would have them all gone within the hour.
Absolutely pointless video, yes pointing out what would have happened if France won the battle does make for an interesting what if question. But to ask would a WW1 battleship ship survived a battle against a ship of the line engagement is a dumb question. It’s like asking what if the British used the British army of WW1 in the American war of independence? Would the British beat Washingtons army?
If USA joins the Central Powers: The Royal Navy will lose their hegemony over the sea, the German naval blockade will further starve the British at home, and would cause unrest, leading to a revolution in England and Scotland. The Irish republic would be peacefully established due to lack of any meaningful military response by the British. Indians would declare independence shortly after, Canada would be annexed by the Americans, and the Caribbean nations would follow, with Mexico forcing itself to become an American protectorate. Spain would parlay with the German-American alliance, and would reclaim Cuba and Puerto Rico, while American bases would be left untouched. Portugal, France and Belgium would be diplomatically isolated, and Alsace, Lorraine, Liege Malmedy and Eupen will be annexed by the German Empire. Russia would be military isolated and would have to fight a losing war alone, forcing them to sign a peace treaty with the Germans. As a result, Russia would switch sides, and would then focus on assisting German colonies in China from Japanese expansion. Japan would be soundly defeated, and the power vacuum left in its territories would pave the way for rising regional stars, like China, the Philippines (which was a US protectorate, but sought a peaceful road to total independence with close ties with America) and Thailand. The Thais would form the Siamese Empire, the Chinese would consolidate control over continental East Asia, the Philippines would occupy southern Taiwan and sign fair treaties with the Han Chinese, Yami, Atayal and Seediq people. China would have a land border with the Greater Philippine Republic, as well as occupy the Malayan Bornean states, establishing a border with Thailand and the colonial Dutch in the south. The Netherlands and Luxembourg would join the Central Powers, and together with Germany, would form into the Federative German Empire. The Federation of Europe (after the joining of Greece, Austria-Hungary, the Kingdom of Poland, the Grand Duchy of Finland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway) would pool their resources into delivering a final blow to the Belgians and French, who would surrender after 2 years of war. Britain would suffer economic decline due to the naval blockade, which would result in their surrender. France and Britain would relinquish control of its colonies abroad, with the Brazilians annexing Suriname(sans the Essequibo region), French Guiana, and British Guyana. Spain would regain Trinidad and Tobago, and would claim Jamaica and the Bahamas. Haiti would become a US protectorate. The Philippine independence movement, now supported by the Federation, would have a peaceful settlement with the United States, and would establish the Greater Philippine Republic (relocating its capital to Iloilo), annexing Palau, Guam, and the Japanese Home Islands. It would become a parliamentary democracy, inspired by the German model. It would then elect a Spanish king and a German queen, and would become a constitutional monarchy, the only Christian monarchy in Eastern Asia. Tonga would seek Philippine protection, resulting in its incorporation into the Kingdom, as a self-governing Kingdom within a Kingdom. Japan would also lose its territ in the North (Kurile and Sakhalin Islands) and would result in Japan joining the Central Powers. Russia, now regaining its Manchurian territories, would enjoy a longer Imperial era, modernizing and reforming along the way, as well as the resulting reconciliation of the Orthodox, Catholic and Reformed Church in the Council of Kiev (June 1917), Council of Ravenna (July 1917) and the Christmas Concord of Zürich (December 1917), uniting into simply, the Mother Church, with the Ottomans, a staunch German ally, agreeing to cede the Hagia Sophia to the now-united Christian Church. The Islamic Federation would also form, as well as the peacefulcreation of a Jewish homeland with a more consistent and larger territory, as well as friendly relationship with Arab nations. America would become a superpower, claiming Iceland, Greenland, and most of the American continent sans South America. It would establish a military and economic treaty with Spain, Gran Colombia, Peru, Bolivia and Brazil, becoming the American Federation. Spain would consolidate control over Gíbraltar and the Maghreb. Egypt would claim parts of Libya and northern Sudan.
In the battle - dead Aircraft carrier. Because they do react rather badly to 280mm+ shells. Far enough away to be out of range - depends on were the other sides subs and mines are.
@@mbr5742The phalanx system can shoot enemy main gun shells out of the sky and it is faster than all but the fastest battlecruisers and destroyers of the time. Unless the enemy immediately directs full weight of fire onto the carrier, it can just Run to safety.
Any modern (i.e. Dreadnaught or similar battleship) would have been devastating at Trafalgar. First and foremost is that Trafalgar was fought under nearly dead conditions. So having the ability to move at 20kn (vs more or less drift at 1-2kn) gives an immediate advantage. Second, typical guns on sailing vessels had a range of a mile, which was an effective range of 400 yards with solid iron balls, as opposed to an effective range of 15 - 20 miles with high-explosive/armor-piercing shells. You don't even need that...just pop a white phosphorus shell in their direction. So, even without the armor advantage, any modern ship can stand off well out of range and blast away with impunity. Finally, (again setting the armor issue aside), the French admiral would have studied Trafalgar in great detail and would know precisely what Nelson was up to and run down the line plunking holes in each English ship. And that's why modern navies no longer use sailing ships.
I love your content as always however would you ever consider "what if a single vietnam era B-52 could win World War II in Europe" in particular the bombing of Berlin??
A single B-52 could alone cause The Bronze Age Collapse apocalypse like event, but only in eras before ww1. No matter how high or fast do you fly, its only you vs hundrets of thousands of guns (and possibly rockets).
@@mateuszbanaszak4671The B-52 has a flight ceiling that even late WW2 aircraft and anti-aircraft defenses would struggle to attack. An Me262, for example, would be stuck about three miles below the B-52... At an altitude where German flak cannons can just barely touch them, but aren't very effective against them. It wouldn't be until 1945 that the Ta152 would come on the scene and give Germany a fighter that could maybe get close enough to shoot the B-52... But the B-52 has a speed advantage of well over a hundred miles an hour at that altitude, as well as still retaining a pretty hefty altitude advantage. If the B-52 happens to be be ancient enough to retain its tail-mounted Vulcan cannon, it would have a range and firepower advantage on any fighter that tried to struggle and get close enough to fight back, but even without the gun I seriously doubt a modern B-52 with a capable pilot would be in any real danger from WW2 threats - Knowing the enemy, you can just fly at your ceiling, and you have a radar that tells you where they are with loads of time to just push the throttles forward or turn the stick slightly and be miles away from them before they arrive at their expected intercept position.
@@ryanhodin5014 Yeah. Grandpa Buff, for a machine thats close to being century old, still doesn't fail to impress at how scary it is. Without undermining his might, its still funny to imagine what tech could be developed to shoot him down. After all, germans build a railroad gun that could shoot 4.8 tons shells at 50 km range, so developing smaller, Flak throwing, versions of it as a "area denial" deterant or actually effective "offensive" weapon. Or maybe send commission over the continent, for Japanese to figure it out? They could build some, favorably jet powered, high speed, high altitude, Kamikaze craft with charges pointed up, on mission to hurt its engines, or to scare it off from bombing run? Thats so cool... Man, these (Star Wars / Sci-Fi) writers been sleeping on theyr Super Weapons! That ancient bomber alone is more entertaining idea than all these Death Stars and Arsenal Birds!
@@mateuszbanaszak4671 Oh yeah! That's a very cool thought experiment for sure. I think my take would revolve around the Me163 rocket fighter as a kamikaze/TV-guided missile (or the Japanese manned anti-ship missile version, but Germany would have to import that somehow and it's probably not worth it to do that) - Normally it doesn't have enough fuel to reach a B-52's altitude, and it's never-exceed speed is very slightly too low to catch it... But I'm sure that speed could be increased by some strengthening of the airframe and/or caring less about the aircraft's longevity (it's a one-flight plane anyway). For the altitude, we can mount it on a first stage of some sort. I'd be tempted to try fitting it onto a V-2 rocket - It should have the performance to lift an Me163 basically into space, but I'm not sure if we could go so far as to make it guided manually - So, perhaps, we could have it lob an Me163 (or even two, if they'd fit in a fairing) up to 60,000 feet or so, then separate and have the plane light it's own engine and cruise to the target. That has the major advantage that it gives the B-52 fairly little warning - The V-2 doesn't have to launch very far in advance... But, all of this would require some pretty advanced for the time engineering to get the mounting, the separation, and the airborne ignition of the second rocket right. A simpler version might be to use a bomber as the launch platform - Something like a Ju288 might be able to lift an Me163 up high enough that it could reach a B-52, if they invested heavily enough in making the bomber work. That'd rely on the B-52 not seeing the bomber as a threat and getting out of Dodge though, since the 163 could only fly under power for about 12 minutes at the most. Still, that's probably the most possible "rocket fighter becomes AA-missile" idea. (note - the 163 did have two guns, but they weren't very effective and I wouldn't trust them against a B-52. Better, if you only have to kill one plane and the sake of the country is at stake, to bite the bullet and make it explosive instead) Either way, it's a fun thought experiment for sure. I'd love to hear HLC converse with Grandpa BUFF about it lol
Depends. Where does the hypothetical battleship get the metallurgy (armour, guns, boilers, engines) fuel (high grade coal or heavy oil) chemistry (propellants) engineering (steam engines, hydraulics, fire control, ranging optics) from? Where is the support infrastructure or do you simply wave your magic wand?
Just about ANY WW1 ship class could have significantly altered the course of this battle simply by pounding the enemy ships from point-blank range. The guns of the ships of the line had an abysmal range.
Up next on the channel that analyzes foregone and obvious conclusions: Can a single US Nimitz class carrier stop the Japanese Pearl Harbor attack fleet? It hasn't been done before, honest.
You must be kidding. Why overdo it. A WWI destroyer could do it easily from miles away. A 4" shell hitting wooden ships would be devastating. Wooden ships at 5 knots would be sitting ducks. Start at one end and just steam down the line.
Here’s an interesting question, could an Iowa-class battleship destroy a 19th century wooden sailing ship in one salvo? Edit: nvm a ship like Iowa would be entirely capable
I don't even have to watch the video (though I am anyways). The answer is yes and it wouldn't be even slightly difficult. Hell, they likely wouldn't even have to worry about the British returning fire. Even the lighter armored portions of the hull would shrug off cannon shot for the most part (repeated hits in the same spot may punch through) and the only sections I would be concerned about being vulnerable would the superstructure and funnels. Considering the differences in durability and maneuverability, the French battleship could probably take out most of the British fleet by just ramming them. Even if not, they could sail close enough to ensure accurate shots and assign singular turrets to individual targets with similar results. A wooden sailing ship is not going to take many battleship caliber HE rounds to sink and wont hold up to those secondary guns either. It'd be a slaughter.
Danton was outdated when she hit the water since she was essentially an updated Pre-Dreadnought. Compared to what was already in the water from Great Britain at the time it would have been outclassed but compared to ships a Century earlier she would have been impervious to anything the British could have brought against her. She wouldn't have had to use speed or long range firepower since nothing then in the British Navy had any chance of penetrating the armor of even the lightest protected cruiser of the French Navy, much less the heavy armor of a pre-dreadnought. The Danton would close and rake every single British ship with her main, secondary and tertiary batteries. All would fire high explosive shells which would easily penetrate the wood sides of all of the ships. Even the smaller 3 and 1.5 inch anti destroyer defense weapons would be devastating to any sailing ship. The ships that didn't burn to the waterline right off the bat would be sitting ducks for the rest of the French/Spanish fleet coming in to finish them off. It would be a slaughter.
Why keep your distance? We saw a similar but less extreme scenario when the first ironclads came on the scene... When the Merrimack attacked the wooden ships of the northerners guarding the blockade, completely demolishing them... Add another 50 years of advances in propulsion, guns and armor and you have an absurd combination :D Danton could destroy them even without using ammunition, and the HE ammunition on board would turn wooden ships into splinters very quickly :D imagine a hit with a 305 mm gun :D from HMS Victory, after a single hit, there would be nothing but splinters left.. .I understand that it was a request from the audience, but here it would be like running into the Roman legions with a machine gun...
I should bloody well hope so!! The Royal Navy's wooden sailing ships of the time armed with muzzle-loading cannon firing solid shot would be like shooting BB's at an elephant!! The Danton could move independently of sea and wind, fired shells that exploded on contact or delayed penetrating from various sized guns, and if all else failed could easily ram the opposing sailing ships.
a ww1 dreadnought vs ships of the line... the dreadnought doesn't even have to fire it's guns to win, it can just simply ram every single ship of the line in half while the wooden ships can barely scratch the paint with their guns
A single CSS Virginia or USS monitor would turn that battle for whatever side had an ironclad. Either could face the guns of the day with little effect and the protected guns would repeat the first part of the battle of Hampton Roads.
Id actually go a step further and say that a single ww1 cruiser could win vs both fleets. Guns with much more range, accuracy, and power would decimate those wooden ships. The cruiser could easily keep the range where it wanted and then essentially idle for maximum accuracy. A better question would be could the combined fleets escape by running in every direction? Outside of running they dont stand a chance.
By it self without any fleet a single iron clad of even the kind used in the American Civil War would have gone through either wooden fleet like sailing threw paper.
battleships in ww1 and 2 carried at minimum 500 shells split between ap and he for their main battery but could carry over 3000 shells juat for main guns. together with secondary and machine gun rounds there would be between 20000 and 150000 pieces of ammo on a capital ship on average.
British side: She'd probably operate with the Battlecruisers. She'd probably wreak some havoc on the German Battlecruisers, then join the battleship engagement. Probably ends up with the Germans losing more ships. German side: Again, she probably operates with the battlecruisers. It's reasonable that she'd be the cause of at least one more British battlecruiser going down, but then she'd have to deal with the four Queen Elizabeths and then the entire Grand Fleet. She'd probably get a good deal of damage done to her, and she'd probably maul a couple of British Battleships in return, but the numerical advantage the British have in battleships is too great to overcome.
Hmmm what a shocking conclusion, I would never of thought a WW1 Dreadnought would make that much of a difference to the outcome. I mean it’s just got armour, guns and engines that made ships made a few years earlier obsolete. So to find out completely obsolete design of ships powered by wind, made of wood and fired cannon balls wouldn’t stand a chance. What a real eye opener! Maybe you could do video on what would have happened if Alexander the Great came up against the whole of the 1990 Gulf War Coalition forces? Greek phalanx surely would of held against MBT’s, Attack Helicopters, Jets, artillery and modern infantry tactics?
Yes - and quickly. The video makes it too complex. Danton would simply run along the British line, raking every ship they had from 2000 yards. As the British ships broke formation in a panic toget away, Danton would simply stop, stabilize, and pick them off as they ran at perhaps 5 knots. It would have been over by mid-morning, with the French Navy picking up british survivors. All 27 British ships would have been sunk, or surrendered.
The world war 1 battleship would have to be carrying the right sort of ammunition. Armour piercing shells for use against other dreadnoughts would be pretty useless against wooden battleships, they would probably go straight through without exploding leaving relatively small 12 inch holes. High explosive shells for use against small boats and destroyers would probably work a lot better.
At point blank range even the muzzle shockwaves would devastating. That metal behemoth is shrugging everything off the British sent. It could choose to remain at range and never be threatened by Nelson's guns. Imagine it shelling London
I think a more “even” battle would be could the four Iowa classes win the battle of Jutland. I think it would be good to have a scenario for if it was on either side.
Ew early Dreadnoughts...in all seriousness though, I love me some Dreadnought era onward vs _______ matches. If I may suggest one, what would happen if the post-Trafalgar British fleet some-how found them selves half-way across the world, at Pearl Harbor, on the 7th of December, 1941, with USS Enterprise in attendance with historical roster also being stationed at Pearl Harbor, as was hoped by Japanese leadership & with the same amount of surprise as the historical timeline? (In all seriousness & reality, that fleet wouldn't even come close, but ya know, let's have a lil' fun and say they did)
For anyone wondering why i used a WWI battleship, i know it is overkill, lol. It was a specific request.
Maybe future scenarios should focus more on the aftermath? Or have multiple battles involved?
I have an interesting request. Let's imagine the Battle of Sunda Strait on the night of 28 February - 1 March 1942. Then swap all the ABDA ships with World Of Warships Super Ships. USS Houston with USS Annapolis, HMAS Perth with HMS Edgar and HNLMS Evertsen with HSwMS Dalarna. All the new ships have Autoloading guns and mid 1950s radar and firecontrol. Would the ABDA flotilla survive an entire Japanese Armada?
Hmmm. I reckon the Danton would take at least 2 ships under fire.
@@legiran9564also, I feel the pain of the Dutch fleet. For the Dutch mariner who survived the Japanese
Empire, which means surviving a long sentence of PoW, a rare and remarkable event no doubt, and after release from PoW, learning of the success of the submarine flotilla whatever.
Most of the battleships in WWII, where WWI era ships.
Dreadnoughts and super dreadnoughts where the staple until the late 1930s and into the 1940s with the develop of "modern" fast battleships.
So it's all good there. :)
Edit: Ah, the Danton. A semi-dreadnought. Basically cheap dreadnought. The turbines are a huge advantage...nevermind the vast arsenal of guns (This is what seperated the Danton class from true dreadnoughts...not "all big gun".) The 3in guns with HE would burn everything they hit. Larger guns probably massive overpenetration before detonating. And AP shells...useless.
Having toured the last remaining WW1 battleship, the USS Texas (BB35). She doesn't even need even need to shoot, she can run them down, speed of 21 knots and an armored bow.
Agree with you, Scott, but what about the USS Missouri (BB63)? I’d love to visit the Texas, mind you. Is she actually seaworthy or in dry dock?
@@covertcounsellor6797 The trouble with taking Missouri back to this era is fuel. Once she exhausted her fuel oil there would be no way to replace it.
At least Texas was coal powered though I don't know if they would have the extensive stocks required to keep Texas going, that's a lot of coal for this period.
Poor ol Danton could only do 18.5 knots. Though in an era where speeds were single digits she's a speed boat as long as her coal stocks hold out.
Could the industry of this time produce enough quality coal to keep her operational? They could not replace any ammunition
@johnfisher9692 sure if you do the WW1 configuration l. The texas was refitted to burn oil in 1922 or 1926 when the added torpedo blisters
@@johnfisher9692 USS Texas was covert to oil between the wars.
Child: My Lord how did we win at Trafalgar?
Napoleon: We cheated.
VIVE LA FRANCE!
@@Butter_Warrior99 why the A to "Vive" ? But still Vive la france !
@@Galikalou Oops. My bad.
"There was nothing *they* can do."
HON HON HON BAGUETTE!!!
Without watching the video yet..... Yes!
Read my mind.
Without watching the video, a WW1 cruiser could win the battle
Probably even a destroyer
@@miketogwell1000 Maybe even a US Coast Guard High Endurance Cutter! lol
@@miketogwell1000 "Hell, a ww1 era destroyer could have.' Was literally the first thought I had when I read the video title. Actual metal (even if not armor proper) and exploding munitions are a hell of a thing.
Though neither of those would really be the kicker. That would be the engines. A ww1 destroyer would simply be able to dictate the battles terms and thus be allowed to fight it on whatever terms they wanted.
Personally I wonder what range something like Victory would need to be at to puncture the splinter proof stuff on a destroyer with their solid shot. My guess is somewhere around standard fighting range for the ship, on the closer end of this spectrum. Since those guns were far more powerful than they were accurate and that accuracy was what really dictated the ranges they fought at, rather than the effective range. Even at the Battle of Manilla Bay the accuracy of the USN ships is something like 1% (this is somewhat misleading due to how the battle was fought, but not that misleading). A fact that was still pretty true even in ww1. To put it simply anyways. It wasn't until the advent of RADAR guided guns that happened right at the end of the big gun era, that this truly changes. Regardless of how much better the optical rangefinders had gotten.
addendum: Metal that isn't proper armor is far weaker than a lot of people seem to think. Just look at the damage done to the Little Willie tank prototype simply by trying to tow it. (around the pistol port on the front). As stated by the Tank Museum: "...and you can see the damage at the front where somebody tried to tow the tank by threading a line through one of its windows. It’s not made of armour plate, only boilerplate after all."
An iron clad could probably do it if it had the right circumstances and not overwhelmed. But that's pushing it. A few more might be needed to prevent boardings. Which is how I could see a flotilla defeating a single ironclad.
It takes nearly 16 min to say "Obviously"
The technological gap is so huge as to make the question dumb.
As long as her coal stocks and ammunition held out the Danton (the last French Pre-Dreadnought actually built after HMS Dreadnought) would rule the oceans in this time period
Even La Glorie, would have been a bad choice, given how overpowered it was against Napoleonic era ships of the line. Much least, one of the most overpowered of the pre dreadnoughts to serve in the French navy. 😊
Ammunition stocks aren't of particular importance, since you can just ram the wooden ships.
@@nickklavdianos5136 True but ramming can still damage the ship so why risk it?
@@johnfisher9692Wood ship getting hit by 18k ton of steel at nearly 20 knots? Not sure that would damage the pre-dread much tbh
The Franco-Spanish Fleet trying to incorporate a World War I Pre-Dreadnought would be like a squadron of Spitfires from the Battle of Britain trying to work alongside an F-15 Eagle... They can't work together. The Danton wouldn't even have to get up steam; her guns would shatter the British Fleet long before they got into range.
The real question to be asked is whether Danton would even need to bother using its main guns. Its 9 inch guns and defensive guns were faster-firing and entirely capable of wrecking wooden ships.
Factoring the fast reload and scopes, oh yeah you cripple then kill,
@@alexandarvoncarsteinzarovi3723 I didn't say they wouldn't use them, just that they probably wouldn't need to use them. They have them so they might as well! :)
I hypothesize that a single 12 inch broadside could sink a wooden first rate. High explosive of this caliber vs wood! X4.
They wouldn't last long if they did.
@@jonathanallard2128 My point was merely that their more rapid-firing secondaries and defensive armaments could probably do it too, and probably more quickly, and that there's really not much the enemy fleet can do about it. The smart play might be to save the 12" guns for the ships that try to run while the secondaries and defensive guns tear up everything that's closer. The only limits the battleship would have would be its supply of ammunition and fuel, and eventually spare parts. As for fuel, coal was theoretically obtainable.
@@fembotheather3785 Oh I didn't try to disagree with you! In fact I 100% agree with your comment I just wanted to add a new and different hypothesis, see if you'd agree with this one.
But yeah for sure the secondaries only would shred them wooden ships no problem.
Pinnacle of engineering? The Danton was obsolete when it was launched. The British, Americans, and Japanese already had dreadnoughts at that point. Danton was a late pre-dreadnought.
We aint try'na hate here, but aint the of the video the fact that a ww1 era battleship (no matter how ugly, or obsolete (I prefer Japanese Dreadnoughts, including the Ise's to a point)) went back to 1805, it would still be a pinnacle of engineering. That class is also pinnacle of what a POS BB looks like in my opinion.
To be fair, the Dantons are extremely powerful pre dreadnoughts. They have their four main 12 inch guns, but also twelve 9,4 inch guns. They're powerful to the extent that they have a good shot against the early dreadnoughts, albeit limited by speed.
If I ever had to take a pre dreadnought to fight against a dreadnought, I'd probably take the a Danton, Satsuma or Lord Nelson.
Danton was designed as a pre dreadnoughts, because France believed after Tsushima, that the combat ranges would remain relativly short. At which point this configuration would have a higher rate of fire, and higher broadside weight compared to the early dreadnoughts, like Dreadnought, Nassau class, South Carolina, and being well able to overpower those.
However, as we now know in hindsight, the assumption about combat ranges would be incorrect, and the 9.4" guns would fall behind on longer ranges, compared to fewer 12" guns.
uhm ackshually, it was a semi-dreadnought
This is exactly what I was thinking to myself. Even the Japanese had vessels that surpassed this.
We saw less extreme version of this during the Opium Wars and Crimean War, where iron clads completely obliterated older more numerous fleets of wooden ships of the line.
Yi Sun Shin's Turtle ships proved that 2 turtle ships and 11 Regular ships could wreck the 300 combined warships Japanese fleet, 300 years before first steam powered iron clads exists.
@@Real_OSHA_Unsafety_Engineer YEP! The Japanzees are smart.
Battle of Lissa.....
If it’s HMS Warspite she’d take out all three fleets, then proceeded to intervene in the Battle of Waterloo.
How? Damned if I know. She’s HMS Warspite.
Elaborate? I sense this is funny but I want to know why it’s funny
HMS Warspite or more affectionately known as the grand old lady, snipped an Italian battleship at a distance of 24 kilometres. She was also present to provide naval gun fire during operations conducted in Italy and during the Normandy landings.
She's a relatively well decorated battleship in the Royal Navy
@@johnplummer4785
Warspite had a steering casualty during the Battle of Jutland. Somehow the repairs didn’t quite take, and HMS Warspite developed a troubling tendency to ‘have steering issues’ which invariably had her heading straight towards the nearest enemy ship, irrespective of what the captain had ordered.
Her final steering issue happened on the way to the razor blade factory. Check Drachinifel’s Guides on the Queen Elizabeth class battleships and HMS Warspite. Drach does an incredible job.
HMS Warspite would have been the great equaliser!
@@danieljones7843 no. Warspite would've seal clubbed the poor thing
HMS Warspite is a queen Elizabeth class super dreadnought. In her ww1 configuration, she had four, 15 inch guns in twin gun turret configuration (giving her eight `5 inch guns), 13 inches of armor at the water belt, 7-10 inches of armor at the barbettes and 11-13 inches of armor at her gun turret.
the Danton has two twin 305mm guns (one at the front and the back), twelve 240mm guns (at the sides) and sixteen 75mm guns at the lower deck. The Danton's armor at the water belt is only 7-10 inches thick, 10-13 inches of armor for the turrets and 10.5 inches of armor for the conning tower.
the Danton's speed and Warspite's speed is somewhat similar at 24knts for the Warspite while 19knts for the Danton's.
however, Warspite has the advantage of significantly bigger calibers whilst being able to bring all of her main guns to bare whilst the Danton can only bring half of it due to pre-dreadnought battleship designs being the way the are.
if we were bringing ww2 Warspite into question, Danton would've been sniped from 20 kilometers guaranteed. The RN giulio Cesare can attest to Warspite's gunnery
There were 6 hours between the beginning of the battle and the first fighting, the Danton would try trickshots in that time and the 9.2 inch guns would shoot high explosive guns, even the 4 inch would destroy 1st rates with ease.
The one thing I wonder is, does the Danton have shell fuzes which would be armed by 2 feet thick hardwood? I think the main guns definitely and the secondaries probably would act like solid shot, go right through the ships of the line without exploding. She'd still do a tremendous amount of damage, but more along the line of holing them at or below the waterline.
The 4 inch guns Shell's will arm well the ones on USS Walker did when she engaged Wooden Ships
@@windwalker5765 if they're using HE with impact fuses, yes. Yes they will.
I'm pretty sure you'd over-pen even with HE.
Honestly, this might be the most one-sided engagement this channel has ever done. I think it's another case of bringing technology too advanced to make for an interesting engagement, despite the fact that it's only a hundred years' difference. I think this battle is where you should have sent the Civil War ironclads that went to Lepanto. Oceangoing ironclads like the _Kalamazoo_ class are resistant but not immune to cannon, have more powerful guns than a man o' war but a far lower rate of fire. But most importantly, while they were slightly slower than sailing ships, they could maneuver in any manner they chose regardless of wind.
That wouldn't make any difference. Those ships were very much closer to Admiral Nelson's ships in capability than they were to Admiral Jellico's. Armor, weapons, fire control and engines improved by orders of magnitude between the 1860s and 1910s.
@@Neneset That's the point, I want a fight that's close enough to be interesting... not an ass whooping like this.
@@windwalker5765 Perhaps I read your position backwards. I read it as 1860s vs 1910s and you seem to have meant it as 1800s vs 1860s. While not as dominant as the other, the 1860s were well in advance of the 1800s. Particularly the advent of the explosive shell replacing solid shot changed naval warfare.
@@Neneset Correct. But I still think it's close enough to be interesting... given the same number of ships per side (and ignoring that the US only built 4 Kalamazoo class). The ironclad breechloading guns have range, power, and shrapnel... but only 4 guns per ship, vs. 70-100 for the men of war. The ironclad has a massive maneuver and defense advantage, but any damage it takes is much harder to repair, where the carpenter can patch holes and mend sails to a greater extent. To me, it comes down to, can the men of war survive long enough to start some leaks or cause engine damage?
@@windwalker5765 Not gonna lie, it'd be more interesting to see 1880's-1890's pre-Dreads/ironclads fight a whole floating forest, no disrespect to wooden sailing ships, but at least give a noticeable difference otherwise it has to many numbers, & I'm sorry but I have a game that does that for me. Two of 'em in fact, both of them don't have wooden sailing ships either. Now if we really wanna see a fight with a huge gap of 140+ years, send the Fletcher's, Benson's, or Allen M Sumner's against those wooden sailing ships.
The difference in combat capability between the two eras is truly insane. A single WWI battleship would be largely immune to cannon fire, denting the hull plating and scratching the paint isn't going to deter a battleship. And if the BB stayed out at a couple thousand yards then few cannon balls would even manage to that little damage.
Meanwhile, a ship of the line might be about 250 feet long, that's feet, not meters. meaning that a single HE shell blowing up mid ship would me a mere 125 feet, at most, from everyone on the ship. That's about 38 meters for metric people. Wooden walls and decks would provide some protection from shrapnel but would also serve to channel the blast wave down whatever deck was hit. That's easily within the kill zone of a 12" explosive shell. And while not everyone would be killed by a single hit, the damage would be severe enough, with enough casualties, that the ship hit would likely be combat ineffective... to the extent it ever was combat effective when faced with a WWI era battleship. And this doesn't count the fires started by the hot shrapnel... or the chance of powder magazines being hit. A single secondary shell (about 5" give or take) would still do massive damage, start fires, and kill lots of people. It wouldn't take too many secondary hits to guarantee that the wooden ship was either a burning and sinking wreck or bunch of floating matchsticks after a powder explosion.
The WWI battleship has no concern about wind direction and can out run the sailing ships in any direction so the sailing shops can't run or outmaneuver the battleship.
A WWI battleship at Trafalgar would be nothing but a simple gunnery exercise.
A simple yet extremely gratifying excercise for the French, lol
IF we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs.
Assuming she comes pre-stocked with fuel, knowledgeable crew, ammunition, and supplies, then yes. Easily.
For once it's less a hassle since the fuel is simple coal,they can refuel anywhere. The ammo would be more bothersome ( the cannon used sac of powder so it's less difficult to make than full brass cartridge but they still would need to know what's the composition of powder in it to be able to remake them and at that time the ammo would be limited to non explosive round solid shot)
The maintenance would not be so difficult for the time until the ship need to dry dock to repair the hull, or if anything of importance break if Napoleon era engineer cannot remake them good enough to replace the broken piece( they have a limited supply of spare piece and reparations material on board )
@@evangelinetsukyomi9023 maybe the ship could just ram itself against the wooden ships once it runs out of ammo.
Stupid question. A battleship is overkill. It could just ram every Franco-Spanish ship. A single destroyer could have won at Trafalgar.
I'm curious how a PT boat would do. Would torpedoes do much to a galleon?
@@theicmn it would blow a hole so big it might be consider as an asteroid crater or just straight up split the ship in half
@@theicmnyeah a heavy ww1 torp would break the spine of a ship of the line. They tore car sized holes in dreadnaughts…
the 100mm guns on ww1 destroyers alone would decimate any wooden galleon from far outside their own gun ranges.
because theyre unarmored wooden ships any shot into the magazine is an insta kill.
Stupid question
Fun video
This is Mike Tyson versus coughing baby.
Dat baby gon die
A few thoughts:
1. This scenario would be more realistic if the British had heard of a French super weapon, so wouldn't be caught entirely off guard.
2. The Danton would have great success if it launched brotasides from directly in front of a ship of the line as for gunnery, direction was easier to determine than distance.
3. It seems likely the Danton could defeat the British fleet without any help from the French/Spanish fleet.
4. This scenario would be much more intriguing if the French substituted several ironclad ships like those used in the American Civil War, 50 years ahead rather than 100.
The one issue with these scenarios is that it is not "what if the French had Danton", but "what if the French were given Danton, a ship from the future". The core of that issue is that this would of course appear as a supernatural event, which would shape the morale of the whole event without the ship even taking a direct role in it.
Yeah if a Brit ship even got the chance to see that thing they would've disappeared sooooo fast.
Bro who cares lmao 😂 It’s cool to think about and that’s all that matters.
The Brit’s probably wouldn’t even consider fighting the battle if they had even the notion that they were given a distinct advantage by some supernatural entity. Clearly the cards aren’t in their favor lol.
@@andrewwilson6726 Yeah. I mean, the Brits were brave, there´s no denying that. They have attacked almost 2 times stronger foe. But they werent absolutely crazy or suicidal. If they saw something like Danton on the horizon, they would run like hell. And they would be right to do so.
@@pavelslama5543Well, it's not like they even can run from it in the first place. That ship could run down the entire fleet, even if they scattered to the wind upon seeing it.
The chasm between Napoleonic ships and warships a century later is akin to the Red Baron in his Fokker triplane taking on a modern F-35...Wouldn't last long and the Baron would not have even seen what sent him to the next world. 🤣. I expect the next vid will be ''What if the USS Gerald R. Ford took a side during the Battle of Actium ?''
An F-35's fire control radar might not actually be able to acquire Richtofen's Fokker as a target. Radars filter out _a lot_ of extraneous stuff, so they don't wind up locking onto a flock of birds of a kite or a tree.
But seriously ...An F-35 dedicated to hunting down a Fokker? That Fokker is a dead Fokker.
@philcollinson328 oh, most *likely.* But the F-35 pilot is gonna have to do stuff his plane doesn't wanna do, like make gun runs, or maybe just buzz the Red Baron at Mach 2 in order to air-slap his plane apart.
I guess, that dogfight between a fokker and a f-35 would end with no one harmed. The fokker is way too slow and manouverable to get caught by any modern AA weapon and the f-35 is way too fast to get hit by the two MG08/15.
I suspect the guys commenting before have a point however ...The Baron's Fokker made of wood and paper, flying slower than an unladen bumble bee, may not even register on an F-35's instruments....If they accidentally collided, the F-35 pilot may need to employ his windscreen wiper ...and would understand why his opponent, Richthofen, had been dubbed the ''Red Baron'' ...This was a wonderful debate...And my sincere thanks to the creator of the vid (it spawned many talking points to my surprise) as well as many interesting and valued thought provoking comments ...lots of fun.
A lot of what is described here takes place pretty much exactly like that in the later installments of Taylor Anderson's alternative history "Destroyermen" series - wooden ships of the line versus steamers with armour and modern naval guns. Granted, in that case the "modern" ships are far smaller than the Danton, WW1 destroyer(s) in fact, and the wooden warships in some cases even feature crude steam propulsion, but the only chance the liners have is to somehow lure the modern steamers into range and try for a long-range broadside, going for a shotgun effect. The ability to maneuvre at will independent of the wind and having far longer range should make Danton vs Nelson's fleet a foregone conclusion. Explosive shells do a real number on ships made of oak.
@ctw30002000 is that a book series or is it on UA-cam?
@@npc.no1 Oh, I didn't specify that. It is a book series.
I love those books.
The grik did nothing wrong.
Destroyermen series is a great read! I made it through all 17 or so books. Time well spent.
Here's another thought: you're bringing in a WWI ship with a WWI naval leader.
I think if anything he's gonna tell Nelson and the opposing French ships to stop quarreling like children and focus on keeping central Europe in check, and one salvo would be more than enough to make both sides cooperate.
Here's another thing to think about: the French Admiral's oaths are to the _Third Republic._
Is he going to be any friend of Bonaparte? Would he even be willing to _collude_ with the English (remember, he has just come through WWI, he was allied with the English), in the hopes that the might of _Danton_ can bring about the end of Napoleon _faster?_
Possibly he might set himself up as Emperor, or more likely, bust out some history books and textbooks on the Third Republic (there'll be _some_ literature aboard) and try to kickstart things, along with the Industrial Revolution.
After all, he's gonna need good machinery to repair Danton. Wear and tear will be its enemies.
Surely Nelson with 9x 16" guns is going to turn the Danton into scrap metal in minutes, it even used Trafalgar type point blank firing tactics against Bismark.
@@ShadowDragon8685 ok....clearly someone has put way more thought in this than the rest of us......
@donhearn2248 well yeah. That's the fun part of [ship] goes back in time to [battle].
A WWI battleship there?, that is too unfair for the British. I agree with others that early ironclads migh fit better.
Did I inspire this when I said you may as well sent in HMS Dreadnought in your Victory vs Vikings vid or is it pure coincidence?
Btw if you're still taking requests I'd still like to see a modern infantry regiment taking on Gallipoli
Realistically there is nothing at Trafalgar that could stop it. Its armor is too thick & the ships couldn't withstand its fire.
And even if they SOMEHOW ran out of ammo, it could just ram every enemy ship in sight.
I mean, what are they supposed to do?
The maximum range of any one of those kanons would be considered close range to a ww1 Batelship. Efective canon range would be considered closer than point blank. Its also faster. They could not even shot at it. They would anoy it at most even if the could.
the danton could technically run them down and ram them since it was much faster and was... well... metal
This is surely the most one-sided fight on this videos' serie, it wouldn't be a battle, but an execution, a single 305 shell would've wrecked every ship of the line of those times.
The Danton would've won single handed the battle, the only job for the french fleet would've been to rescue the (few) survivors.
yes one salvo of shells the entire royal navy is flaming matchsticks.
shells could be devastating just look at the bsttle of sinope in 1853 when the russians wiped out a turkish a turkish squadron.
Pitbull on Meth versus disabled Toddlers
Let’s make this short: The monitor and merrimack shot eachother for three hours to zero effect and both went home.
A battleship has more armor everywhere than both combined, plus absurd firepower.
Yes. A single WW1 battleship could simultaneously fight every navy in the world at that time and it’s only concern would be ammo.
the rea
question what if a ww1 German battleship arrived instead of a french one. a three way battle could be intresting especially if it travels to prussia.
This video is so hilariously random. The fact that it takes itself so seriously and even ends with a "dramatic narration" makes it even better
Can't wait for "Could a Single Avro Vulcan Win the American Revolution?" next
LOL without even watching... YES! The bloody Ball shot of the cannons would not even penetrate the thinnest of armor on a dreadnaught.
its not even a dreadnaught and its still be very one sided
Knowing the British, I would have to believe that they would just wait until night and sneak a group aboard the ship and take over and then use the ship against the French
Not likley. There is allways somone on watch on a ww1 batelship. A sail ship is also to big tho pull up to the side without anyone noticing.....even during night. The compliment of the sail ship is also to small. Probably around 1/8th.
Take over? 😅 I... think not.
@@Manuelslayor The Danton had a crew of about 850. That's roughly the same as a first rate ship of the line, but with a far smaller complement of marines. Automation has it's advantages ! It didn't have radars or night vision aids (they hadn't been invented) so would actually be very vulnerable while moored up at night.
Have a look at the actual history of Royal Navy cutting-out operations. There were hundreds of them, and they had it down to a fine art, to the point wherethey could usually take a ship with a boarding party about 20% of the size of the target's crew, and often under the noses of shore-based forts. The first thing the target ship would know was when their decks were suddenly swarming with Royal Marines and sailors - even having guard-boats out rarely worked as a defence.
@@seanbissett-powell5916 The Danton would have better small arms, they would also have sentries as mentioned before but most importantly they would have searchlights.
So yeah, a big hard no to any British attempt at boarding it xD.
Nelson's plan was called 'Line ahead'. He split his fleet into two and aimed at the Franco Spanish fleet at right angles. The aim was to cross the T and fire broadsides down the length of the enemies ships
I think a ship like the HMS Warrior built in 1860 would be a better ship to test against Napoleonic wars.
Finally an answer to the question that has been bugging me for the last few years.
Danton was in fact a semi-dreadnought. But in this case, probably the best you could use, what with its 8 main big gun turrets.
Honestly, the Ww1 battleship is overkill for the wooden ships, especially with how Admiral Nelson tries to cross the T.
Would've been more fun to pick either a more recent battle or a less advanced ship. This one wouldn't even be a contest.
Even HMS Warrior vs Danton would be one sided. Breech loading QF rifles and Harvey or Krupp armor are huge game changers. Even Dantons 75mm gun outrange Warriors main artillery. And Hail Of Fire works in that time period as shown by Japan vs Russia in 1905
A W.W. 1 Light Cruiser could have taken out the Ships of the Line of both fleets at Trafalgar . To much technology , not enough opposition firepower .
Maybe something a bit more... In comprehension? I mean, a semi-dreadnought with large plates of Krupp style steel armor, and guns that could outrange the nelsonian era ships multiple times over, which don't even need to hit to cause catastrohic damage... Yeah, it's a given. I mean, it may even be better for Danton to get a near miss, than a direct hit, as a direct hit would likely not even set off the fuse on most of the heavy shells, causing them to travel through the hull, creating a large, localized swath of destruction. Which while bad enough... If say, a 12 inch round exploded in the water next to, or even worse, under a SoTL, it could likely just reduce the underwater hull to splinters, and maybe even set off the magazine.
Say, instead... a SoTL vs... Monitor? Or... if Warrior could defeat the french fleet alone? Sure, those ships are still at a HUGE advantage, being steam powered, with thick (relatively) armor, and armed with large shell guns... but a small, laminated armor ironclad VS a full SoTL is at least more... reasonable. And, one large ironclad VS a fleet of 33 SoTLs I think is also reasonably stacked for an interesting conversation.
Bro is creating scenario from isekai novel JAPAN SUMMON.
Love these Scenerios and even if they're one sided thats my kind of entertainment. I had a scenerio in mind. Napoleon returns from Elba with his 870 men but they only have baisc late 1800 and early 1900s technology. No planes, No tanks, no ships. just bolt action rifles, Basic artillery, and machine guns of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Only his 870 men (The soilders that went to exile with him) can have these new technologies. When he gets to the battle of waterloo or any other early battle his other armies can only use their era appropriate weapon. Would Napoleon be able to use the Quality and force the Coalition to let him stay in France or would the sheer qunitity in numbers of the Coalition send him back to Exile?
Lets just say when in Exile, Napoleon gets a Console command research cheat technology or Elba becomes a modern early 1900 modern nation idk
It’s not even a question. SMS Seydlitz, the entire British grand fleet couldn’t sink her.
Next video: What if the Danton was never present at the Battle Of Trafalgar?
A French destroyer could win Trafalgar, and never have to fire its main guns.
Well, maybe, if she had a tender with a large supply of torpedo reloads.
@@kennethhanks6712it could simply ram the enemies.
@tangilehenaff7954 For a "theoretical" on this you might try a read of the "Destroyermen" series (start with book #1 "Into The Storm" first).
Ramming with a destroyer could go badly as the old ships of the line were incredibly well built thick "wooden walls" and even a salvo of smooth bore cannon at point blank range could do serious damage to an even modern destroyer.
This would have been much more interesting with an ironclad ship rather than a full on battleship
2:24 - Economic blockage? Ha! Modern Britain can blockade and isolate itself from the rest of Europe just by it's self in 2024........
(yes i'm a Brit and yes this is sarcasm.)
The steam powered warship with rifled breach loading QF guns will simply stay out of range by staying up wind and fire aimed single shots of explosive rounds at the waterline. From her 75mm terciaries. The rounds will punch through the hulls before detonating so the first few hits will kill the majority of a wooden ships crew and likely cause fires
That's silly requesting a battleship. A late 19th century Monitor, like the Arkansas, could disable most of the fleet. Even the relatively weak WWI Wickes class destroyer could have taken on the fleet by itself. Cruise by the fleet at 2000 meters, punch a few 4" rounds thru each Brit ship, while using the 3" AA gun to make things interesting on deck. Make a second pass to take care of those running away, then call in the French navy to pick up survivors.
Ships may be one thing, but the crew and its training and morale is another major factor, as it was in the original battle of Trafalgar.
As a what-if scenario, I think it's not that interesting, because it goes beyond every possible realistic scenario.
obviously placing a ww1 era battleship, an experienced elite crew and a master tactition would mean that every factor and traits the french actually DID have is turned upside down. The original battle was a close call, the french morale and skills somewhat lacking compared to the british, was likely a deciding factor.
Of course! Fire power, armour, speed, maneuverability...... It wouldn't even need to use any shells, the classical greek triream technique of ramming would have them all gone within the hour.
Absolutely pointless video, yes pointing out what would have happened if France won the battle does make for an interesting what if question.
But to ask would a WW1 battleship ship survived a battle against a ship of the line engagement is a dumb question. It’s like asking what if the British used the British army of WW1 in the American war of independence? Would the British beat Washingtons army?
What if a united states nuclear powered aircraft carrier appeared in the battle of jutland for either side
That's pointless. WWI warships had barely any, if any air defence weapons.
If USA joins the Central Powers:
The Royal Navy will lose their hegemony over the sea, the German naval blockade will further starve the British at home, and would cause unrest, leading to a revolution in England and Scotland. The Irish republic would be peacefully established due to lack of any meaningful military response by the British.
Indians would declare independence shortly after, Canada would be annexed by the Americans, and the Caribbean nations would follow, with Mexico forcing itself to become an American protectorate. Spain would parlay with the German-American alliance, and would reclaim Cuba and Puerto Rico, while American bases would be left untouched.
Portugal, France and Belgium would be diplomatically isolated, and Alsace, Lorraine, Liege Malmedy and Eupen will be annexed by the German Empire. Russia would be military isolated and would have to fight a losing war alone, forcing them to sign a peace treaty with the Germans.
As a result, Russia would switch sides, and would then focus on assisting German colonies in China from Japanese expansion. Japan would be soundly defeated, and the power vacuum left in its territories would pave the way for rising regional stars, like China, the Philippines (which was a US protectorate, but sought a peaceful road to total independence with close ties with America) and Thailand. The Thais would form the Siamese Empire, the Chinese would consolidate control over continental East Asia, the Philippines would occupy southern Taiwan and sign fair treaties with the Han Chinese, Yami, Atayal and Seediq people. China would have a land border with the Greater Philippine Republic, as well as occupy the Malayan Bornean states, establishing a border with Thailand and the colonial Dutch in the south.
The Netherlands and Luxembourg would join the Central Powers, and together with Germany, would form into the Federative German Empire. The Federation of Europe (after the joining of Greece, Austria-Hungary, the Kingdom of Poland, the Grand Duchy of Finland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway) would pool their resources into delivering a final blow to the Belgians and French, who would surrender after 2 years of war. Britain would suffer economic decline due to the naval blockade, which would result in their surrender.
France and Britain would relinquish control of its colonies abroad, with the Brazilians annexing Suriname(sans the Essequibo region), French Guiana, and British Guyana. Spain would regain Trinidad and Tobago, and would claim Jamaica and the Bahamas. Haiti would become a US protectorate.
The Philippine independence movement, now supported by the Federation, would have a peaceful settlement with the United States, and would establish the Greater Philippine Republic (relocating its capital to Iloilo), annexing Palau, Guam, and the Japanese Home Islands. It would become a parliamentary democracy, inspired by the German model. It would then elect a Spanish king and a German queen, and would become a constitutional monarchy, the only Christian monarchy in Eastern Asia. Tonga would seek Philippine protection, resulting in its incorporation into the Kingdom, as a self-governing Kingdom within a Kingdom.
Japan would also lose its territ in the North (Kurile and Sakhalin Islands) and would result in Japan joining the Central Powers.
Russia, now regaining its Manchurian territories, would enjoy a longer Imperial era, modernizing and reforming along the way, as well as the resulting reconciliation of the Orthodox, Catholic and Reformed Church in the Council of Kiev (June 1917), Council of Ravenna (July 1917) and the Christmas Concord of Zürich (December 1917), uniting into simply, the Mother Church, with the Ottomans, a staunch German ally, agreeing to cede the Hagia Sophia to the now-united Christian Church.
The Islamic Federation would also form, as well as the peacefulcreation of a Jewish homeland with a more consistent and larger territory, as well as friendly relationship with Arab nations. America would become a superpower, claiming Iceland, Greenland, and most of the American continent sans South America. It would establish a military and economic treaty with Spain, Gran Colombia, Peru, Bolivia and Brazil, becoming the American Federation.
Spain would consolidate control over Gíbraltar and the Maghreb. Egypt would claim parts of Libya and northern Sudan.
In the battle - dead Aircraft carrier. Because they do react rather badly to 280mm+ shells.
Far enough away to be out of range - depends on were the other sides subs and mines are.
@@mbr5742that’s the response I was looking for, well done
@@mbr5742The phalanx system can shoot enemy main gun shells out of the sky and it is faster than all but the fastest battlecruisers and destroyers of the time. Unless the enemy immediately directs full weight of fire onto the carrier, it can just Run to safety.
Any modern (i.e. Dreadnaught or similar battleship) would have been devastating at Trafalgar. First and foremost is that Trafalgar was fought under nearly dead conditions. So having the ability to move at 20kn (vs more or less drift at 1-2kn) gives an immediate advantage. Second, typical guns on sailing vessels had a range of a mile, which was an effective range of 400 yards with solid iron balls, as opposed to an effective range of 15 - 20 miles with high-explosive/armor-piercing shells. You don't even need that...just pop a white phosphorus shell in their direction. So, even without the armor advantage, any modern ship can stand off well out of range and blast away with impunity. Finally, (again setting the armor issue aside), the French admiral would have studied Trafalgar in great detail and would know precisely what Nelson was up to and run down the line plunking holes in each English ship. And that's why modern navies no longer use sailing ships.
I love your content as always however would you ever consider "what if a single vietnam era B-52 could win World War II in Europe" in particular the bombing of Berlin??
A single B-52 could alone cause The Bronze Age Collapse apocalypse like event, but only in eras before ww1.
No matter how high or fast do you fly, its only you vs hundrets of thousands of guns (and possibly rockets).
@@mateuszbanaszak4671The B-52 has a flight ceiling that even late WW2 aircraft and anti-aircraft defenses would struggle to attack. An Me262, for example, would be stuck about three miles below the B-52... At an altitude where German flak cannons can just barely touch them, but aren't very effective against them. It wouldn't be until 1945 that the Ta152 would come on the scene and give Germany a fighter that could maybe get close enough to shoot the B-52... But the B-52 has a speed advantage of well over a hundred miles an hour at that altitude, as well as still retaining a pretty hefty altitude advantage.
If the B-52 happens to be be ancient enough to retain its tail-mounted Vulcan cannon, it would have a range and firepower advantage on any fighter that tried to struggle and get close enough to fight back, but even without the gun I seriously doubt a modern B-52 with a capable pilot would be in any real danger from WW2 threats - Knowing the enemy, you can just fly at your ceiling, and you have a radar that tells you where they are with loads of time to just push the throttles forward or turn the stick slightly and be miles away from them before they arrive at their expected intercept position.
@@ryanhodin5014
Yeah.
Grandpa Buff, for a machine thats close to being century old, still doesn't fail to impress at how scary it is.
Without undermining his might, its still funny to imagine what tech could be developed to shoot him down.
After all, germans build a railroad gun that could shoot 4.8 tons shells at 50 km range, so developing smaller, Flak throwing, versions of it as a "area denial" deterant or actually effective "offensive" weapon.
Or maybe send commission over the continent, for Japanese to figure it out?
They could build some, favorably jet powered, high speed, high altitude, Kamikaze craft with charges pointed up, on mission to hurt its engines, or to scare it off from bombing run?
Thats so cool...
Man, these (Star Wars / Sci-Fi) writers been sleeping on theyr Super Weapons!
That ancient bomber alone is more entertaining idea than all these Death Stars and Arsenal Birds!
@@mateuszbanaszak4671 Oh yeah! That's a very cool thought experiment for sure.
I think my take would revolve around the Me163 rocket fighter as a kamikaze/TV-guided missile (or the Japanese manned anti-ship missile version, but Germany would have to import that somehow and it's probably not worth it to do that) - Normally it doesn't have enough fuel to reach a B-52's altitude, and it's never-exceed speed is very slightly too low to catch it... But I'm sure that speed could be increased by some strengthening of the airframe and/or caring less about the aircraft's longevity (it's a one-flight plane anyway).
For the altitude, we can mount it on a first stage of some sort. I'd be tempted to try fitting it onto a V-2 rocket - It should have the performance to lift an Me163 basically into space, but I'm not sure if we could go so far as to make it guided manually - So, perhaps, we could have it lob an Me163 (or even two, if they'd fit in a fairing) up to 60,000 feet or so, then separate and have the plane light it's own engine and cruise to the target.
That has the major advantage that it gives the B-52 fairly little warning - The V-2 doesn't have to launch very far in advance... But, all of this would require some pretty advanced for the time engineering to get the mounting, the separation, and the airborne ignition of the second rocket right.
A simpler version might be to use a bomber as the launch platform - Something like a Ju288 might be able to lift an Me163 up high enough that it could reach a B-52, if they invested heavily enough in making the bomber work. That'd rely on the B-52 not seeing the bomber as a threat and getting out of Dodge though, since the 163 could only fly under power for about 12 minutes at the most. Still, that's probably the most possible "rocket fighter becomes AA-missile" idea.
(note - the 163 did have two guns, but they weren't very effective and I wouldn't trust them against a B-52. Better, if you only have to kill one plane and the sake of the country is at stake, to bite the bullet and make it explosive instead)
Either way, it's a fun thought experiment for sure. I'd love to hear HLC converse with Grandpa BUFF about it lol
Depends. Where does the hypothetical battleship get the metallurgy (armour, guns, boilers, engines) fuel (high grade coal or heavy oil) chemistry (propellants) engineering (steam engines, hydraulics, fire control, ranging optics) from? Where is the support infrastructure or do you simply wave your magic wand?
Just about ANY WW1 ship class could have significantly altered the course of this battle simply by pounding the enemy ships from point-blank range. The guns of the ships of the line had an abysmal range.
Up next on the channel that analyzes foregone and obvious conclusions: Can a single US Nimitz class carrier stop the Japanese Pearl Harbor attack fleet?
It hasn't been done before, honest.
You must be kidding. Why overdo it. A WWI destroyer could do it easily from miles away. A 4" shell hitting wooden ships would be devastating. Wooden ships at 5 knots would be sitting ducks. Start at one end and just steam down the line.
Here’s an interesting question, could an Iowa-class battleship destroy a 19th century wooden sailing ship in one salvo?
Edit: nvm a ship like Iowa would be entirely capable
I don't even have to watch the video (though I am anyways). The answer is yes and it wouldn't be even slightly difficult. Hell, they likely wouldn't even have to worry about the British returning fire. Even the lighter armored portions of the hull would shrug off cannon shot for the most part (repeated hits in the same spot may punch through) and the only sections I would be concerned about being vulnerable would the superstructure and funnels.
Considering the differences in durability and maneuverability, the French battleship could probably take out most of the British fleet by just ramming them. Even if not, they could sail close enough to ensure accurate shots and assign singular turrets to individual targets with similar results. A wooden sailing ship is not going to take many battleship caliber HE rounds to sink and wont hold up to those secondary guns either.
It'd be a slaughter.
Next up: how would the Aztecs do against the Spanish if they had an armoured division available near Tenochtitlan?
SNL had a skit, "What if Superman was a Nazi." He could use his x-ray vision to identify Jews while routing Soviet tanks.
Danton was outdated when she hit the water since she was essentially an updated Pre-Dreadnought. Compared to what was already in the water from Great Britain at the time it would have been outclassed but compared to ships a Century earlier she would have been impervious to anything the British could have brought against her.
She wouldn't have had to use speed or long range firepower since nothing then in the British Navy had any chance of penetrating the armor of even the lightest protected cruiser of the French Navy, much less the heavy armor of a pre-dreadnought.
The Danton would close and rake every single British ship with her main, secondary and tertiary batteries. All would fire high explosive shells which would easily penetrate the wood sides of all of the ships. Even the smaller 3 and 1.5 inch anti destroyer defense weapons would be devastating to any sailing ship. The ships that didn't burn to the waterline right off the bat would be sitting ducks for the rest of the French/Spanish fleet coming in to finish them off. It would be a slaughter.
You can just place HMS Dreadnought and she still claps the whole fleet
Why keep your distance? We saw a similar but less extreme scenario when the first ironclads came on the scene... When the Merrimack attacked the wooden ships of the northerners guarding the blockade, completely demolishing them... Add another 50 years of advances in propulsion, guns and armor and you have an absurd combination :D Danton could destroy them even without using ammunition, and the HE ammunition on board would turn wooden ships into splinters very quickly :D imagine a hit with a 305 mm gun :D from HMS Victory, after a single hit, there would be nothing but splinters left.. .I understand that it was a request from the audience, but here it would be like running into the Roman legions with a machine gun...
I feel like crossing the T would be particularly bad tactics in this scenario.
Would be interesting to put Napolean himself in charge with only a large manual and 1 week to figure out which buttons to push to make it all work.
Ah yes, but what if a modern British hunter-killer submarine had also come back through time and torpedoed the Danton?
0:27 the Ninth century, you say? England ruled the waves for a millenia? No wonder the sun never set...
I should bloody well hope so!! The Royal Navy's wooden sailing ships of the time armed with muzzle-loading cannon firing solid shot would be like shooting BB's at an elephant!! The Danton could move independently of sea and wind, fired shells that exploded on contact or delayed penetrating from various sized guns, and if all else failed could easily ram the opposing sailing ships.
“Could a single M1A2 defeat 10 men with PTRDs?”
How about putting HMS Warrior against the French Liners?
Is this a real question? It wouldn't even need to fire a shot!
Admiral Collingwood also played a major part in Trafalgar
Should have done this with an early ironclad this is a forgone conclusion
Little did Napoleon know, Britain was eventually going to isolate itself from continental Europe for no particular reason...
I suppose it was the only way to beat the mighty brits rullers of the sea's.
a ww1 dreadnought vs ships of the line...
the dreadnought doesn't even have to fire it's guns to win, it can just simply ram every single ship of the line in half while the wooden ships can barely scratch the paint with their guns
Until Mountbatten shows up with Vanguard.
I wonder if this would influence any war with russia and if he would have invaded it
A single CSS Virginia or USS monitor would turn that battle for whatever side had an ironclad. Either could face the guns of the day with little effect and the protected guns would repeat the first part of the battle of Hampton Roads.
I doubt a Monitor would even be capable of getting to Cape Trafalgar.
The whole video is very silly, by the way, of course.
Id actually go a step further and say that a single ww1 cruiser could win vs both fleets. Guns with much more range, accuracy, and power would decimate those wooden ships. The cruiser could easily keep the range where it wanted and then essentially idle for maximum accuracy.
A better question would be could the combined fleets escape by running in every direction? Outside of running they dont stand a chance.
when one main gun is made with more metal than all the metal on the fleet... i think the battle would be one sided lol
By it self without any fleet a single iron clad of even the kind used in the American Civil War would have gone through either wooden fleet like sailing threw paper.
No one wouldn't. They're too small, not seaworthy enough, they aren't particularly fast and one is not enough.
Before the first famous battle with the monitor the Merrymac sank several ships of the line. The cannon balls just bounced off.
@@kenken8857 they were not ships of the line. They were frigates, corvettes and gunboats. Please get your information right.
How much ammo does it have? That's the only limiting factor it seems
battleships in ww1 and 2 carried at minimum 500 shells split between ap and he for their main battery but could carry over 3000 shells juat for main guns.
together with secondary and machine gun rounds there would be between 20000 and 150000 pieces of ammo on a capital ship on average.
it could just by ramming.
A Danton would literally have looked like seeing a starship appear today..
Pointless counterfactual.
What if the USS Iowa was in the battle of either Jutland or Dogger Bank on either side?
British side: She'd probably operate with the Battlecruisers. She'd probably wreak some havoc on the German Battlecruisers, then join the battleship engagement. Probably ends up with the Germans losing more ships.
German side: Again, she probably operates with the battlecruisers. It's reasonable that she'd be the cause of at least one more British battlecruiser going down, but then she'd have to deal with the four Queen Elizabeths and then the entire Grand Fleet. She'd probably get a good deal of damage done to her, and she'd probably maul a couple of British Battleships in return, but the numerical advantage the British have in battleships is too great to overcome.
YEET
YOTE
You lost me at 9th century.
Hmmm what a shocking conclusion, I would never of thought a WW1 Dreadnought would make that much of a difference to the outcome. I mean it’s just got armour, guns and engines that made ships made a few years earlier obsolete. So to find out completely obsolete design of ships powered by wind, made of wood and fired cannon balls wouldn’t stand a chance. What a real eye opener!
Maybe you could do video on what would have happened if Alexander the Great came up against the whole of the 1990 Gulf War Coalition forces? Greek phalanx surely would of held against MBT’s, Attack Helicopters, Jets, artillery and modern infantry tactics?
Yes - and quickly. The video makes it too complex. Danton would simply run along the British line, raking every ship they had from 2000 yards. As the British ships broke formation in a panic toget away, Danton would simply stop, stabilize, and pick them off as they ran at perhaps 5 knots. It would have been over by mid-morning, with the French Navy picking up british survivors. All 27 British ships would have been sunk, or surrendered.
The world war 1 battleship would have to be carrying the right sort of ammunition. Armour piercing shells for use against other dreadnoughts would be pretty useless against wooden battleships, they would probably go straight through without exploding leaving relatively small 12 inch holes. High explosive shells for use against small boats and destroyers would probably work a lot better.
It doesn't even need ammo, it can just ram.
At point blank range even the muzzle shockwaves would devastating. That metal behemoth is shrugging everything off the British sent.
It could choose to remain at range and never be threatened by Nelson's guns.
Imagine it shelling London
Hell, only the secondary batteries could do that.
I think a more “even” battle would be could the four Iowa classes win the battle of Jutland. I think it would be good to have a scenario for if it was on either side.
Yes, easily. Just providing the rest of the fleet with accurate range data through their radar would mean an automatic win.
I think it's less weather or not the Danton wins and more who the danton would side with, if at all.
Ew early Dreadnoughts...in all seriousness though, I love me some Dreadnought era onward vs _______ matches. If I may suggest one, what would happen if the post-Trafalgar British fleet some-how found them selves half-way across the world, at Pearl Harbor, on the 7th of December, 1941, with USS Enterprise in attendance with historical roster also being stationed at Pearl Harbor, as was hoped by Japanese leadership & with the same amount of surprise as the historical timeline? (In all seriousness & reality, that fleet wouldn't even come close, but ya know, let's have a lil' fun and say they did)