Honestly, i think Gortash having so much wasted potential IS kind of what makes his character for me. While it would have been great if he had had more screentime (same as Orin), I do think the tragedy of these two characters unfolds between the lines, and them being revealed to have been pawns to a greater eldritch being only reinforces that. The Netherbrain's revelation, it shows that, while powerful in their own ways, at the end of the day the Chosen are little more than... just a sad, lonely, broken girl raised from infancy to know nothing but murder (she lives in a bloodsoaked sewer full of rotting carrion and excrement for crying out loud), a sad, lonely, broken man whose whole life was torn from him multiple times over and was driven to madness by grief, and a sad, lonely, broken boy from a loveless home whose bitterness over the injustices he's suffered drove him to embrace cruel ideologies, and to let himself be blinded by his own cleverness and the promise of power. Their tragedies come FROM wasted potential: from them thinking themselves in control, and yet being woefully mistaken, cast aside once they've outlived their usefulness. (Just like the PC is, if they refuse to go with the Emperor's plan and elect to free Orpheus: they too are swiftly cast aside by their cruel illithid puppeteer.) Ketheric is undoubtedly the best villain in the whole game (I can't even force myself to not feel just... utterly sorry for him, and his introduction scene is just incredibly striking), but Gortash too is a brilliant character, only... definitely more in retrospect. He lives in his journals, his little notes sent to the Dark Urge character, in the subtlety of his characterization when speaking to Karlach. And, for the record, I personally think he's plenty handsome (if unkempt, in a way someone under a lot of pressure like he is might be), and looks like he might be in his mid- to late 30's, which is plenty young. His clothes too I think are purposeful: they're ostentatious, but in a way that it shows that they were chosen by a man with more money than taste. A shallow show of status, a costume, moreso than anything genuine, which... kind of makes it perfect.
as evil as gortash is, i am not sorry for what happened to sally and dravo. they looked at their own child and saw a monster, and a monster is what he became, because of them. they fucking earned the tadpoling more than any other person in the entire game.
As soon as Orin betrayed the dark urge, complete control over the elder brain was lost. They demonstrated that they did not have complete control over the three Netherstones. This is all the Netherbrain needed to enact its own plan. So, infighting among the leaders brought them down.
The way he dies when you ally with him is so sudden and underwhelming its disappointing, I genuinely wanted to ally with him as Durge and think it would really cool if there was an alternate evil ending for the two of them, considering Durge is the only one he sees as a worthy equal.
I feel like there has to be an insane amount of cut content related to Gortash and the Dark Urge specifically because there are a ton of letters between the two of them that detail their relationship and partnership, going back even before Gortash became the Chosen of Bane. Their relationship is extremely interesting.
i honestly think that gortash is a very compelling character on the level of a companion. his role in the story was either underdeveloped in comparison to his character, or his character/backstory were overdeveloped in comparison to his role in the story.
I think for all the factions the game has by act three, the Chosen of Bhaal and Bane, both Githyanki groups, Raphael, and all of the organizations of Baldur's Gate, I think Gortash really is an impressive character. To an extent, he and the Dark Urge kind of take on Sarevok's role from Baldur's Gate 1, and then Gortash really assumed the role once the Urge was usurped by Orin. Gortash, like Sarevok, wove a web of intrigue and lies that would sow chaos in Baldur's Gate and allow him to take charge of the city. He was the one who suggested taking the Crown of Karsus and using it on the Elder Brain. Had he not underestimated the Elder Brain, much as Sarevok underestimated Gorion's Ward, he'd have had the perfect plan. The Elder Brain was simply smarter. It's literally the equivalent of a supercomputer, and it found a way, even in captivity, to manipulate the Chosen into causing their own downfall. Gortash really was a brilliant villain, but without his partnership with the Dark Urge, there really was nothing holding the Chosen together. His ego also wouldn't allow a chance that his plan could be foiled, so he chased after the Astral Prism just like the Netherbrain wanted him to. He's really a perfect example of a tyrant, with all of the shortcomings of one as well.
Both Gortash and Orin deserved more screen time tbh. You can learn so much about them just from talking to NPCs and reading bits and pieces around the city. But we never really get to KNOW them like we do Ketheric. Also Artificer is such a cracked out class that I can understand why Larian decided not add it. Endless potential that might get overwhelming to newer players.
Considering that BG3 is one of the best games ever made, it’s crazy to think how much unrealized potential it has. I look at Act 3 and think wow, this is great… yet there is SO much room for improvement. Gortash is only one element of that.
Even Kethric is wasted imo. So much gravitas and so little screen time in comparison. After Kethric everything else is anti-climax. All three of the Chosen got the short end, in different ways.
In theory I thought it was a solid concept...one top general in act 2 as the main baddie and two more for the last act before facing the big boss. In act 2 I think it was done very well as Ketheric was clearly the main influence of the act and by the end I was satisfied with Ketheric and intrigued with the other two, but in act 3 the problem was that instead of being the two main forces they kinda just slotted in equally not just between each other but also ALL the companion's storylines and other optional storylines which all climax in act 3 but none intertwine with Orin and/or Gortash. Like imagine playing through act 3 (before climax) without doing the companion quests...I'd think then they would actually dominate the act like they're supposed to. I was fine that they didn't get as much background/attention as Ketheric since after defeating one, defeating the others logically becomes less of a milestone. But the sheer amount of content that they weren't part of made them seem lesser than they should've been.
I don’t think it’s ever confirmed but Korrilla is the only warlock who has a pact with Raphael that we’ve met, so she may be the same warlock that took Gortash
The huge difference is the fact act 2 is a 20 hour section where from beginning to end, Ketheric is the source of villainy. Versus act 3: Gortash, Orin, Ethel, Cazador, Viconia, Sarevok, Ansur, The Emperor, The Absolute, Lorroakan etc. You have a collection of villains in the 60 hour act 3 versus One villain and his subordinates in act 2
Much like with Cazador, the build-up before coming face to face with Gortash was amazing. But other than Cazador, even after interacting with him he was still a cool character and I was intrigued. After all that build-up I expected him to play a much larger role in Act 3 than he did. My friend and I made a pact with him and I thought I picked a wrong option somewhere when he just .. well, you know what happened. Such a shame.
It would be super cool to play a prequel with him and the Dark Urge, or even a sequel where he comes back as an uneasy ally or something! I think I'm just obsessed with his chesty hairs though, so :(
Just watched it, after getting recommended by the algorithm. I believe one of the overarcing parts of Baldur's Gate 3 is "the illusion of grandeur". Every character believes themselves to be on top of their game, whilst EVERYONE ends up being a pawn. Just look at the 3 Chosen BBEGs: 1. Ketheric trying to surpass the gods, since they "betrayed" him. 2. Orin supplanting the DUrge because she believes herself to be the Chosen as a direct descendant of Sarevok himself the favorite child of Bhaal. 3. Enver enshrining himself as the most diabolical, intelligent and brilliant mastermind. You have the Emperor, believing himself above the Netherbrain and trusting in his own ingenuity. Gale, believing himself on par - nay - above Mystra. Lae'zel believing herself to be the chosen amongst her kin to serve Vlaakith. Shadowheart who believes that she serves her Goddess out of her own free will. Wyll OBVIOUSLY being bound by Mizora, who in turn tries to occupy Zariel. Raphael who wants to take over the Hells themselves. EVERY character falls flat in this specific case, and it makes them more human alltogether. This is why it is such a delight with the revelation of the Netherbrain controlling everything from behind the scenes, since it itself believes to be above us - the players. This is just awesome writing in retrospective, but in the moment it really takes away the illusions of power that we were presented with throughout the game.
So I am curious and willing to be the pedantic asshole. What about Karlach, Jaheira, Minsc and Minthara? I would ask about Astarion, but Ascendant vampires are apparently arrogant assholes
@@javiereraulmba9189 Sure, happy to oblige: In Jaheiras case it's the laurels of a hero and the strength of her allies. She believes in others abilities to do good, which is her downfall in Act 2 (and later notes in Act 3 reveal the same). She trusts to fast and doesn't question her allies motivation - Marcus is a prime example, the cleanup after the first Ketheric killing another. Her heroism and belief in the greater good is her downfall and what she slowly learns to accept. Karlach had ultimate trust in friendship and respect, which led to her getting blindsided by Gortash and her ignoring the really bad stuff he did. A little bit of naivete and youthful idiocy, as well as some pride in being Zariels enforcer (seen in some cases where you go through her dialogue options). She however does not confirm to the formula 100% as even on the own height of her story she will still not be the focus or the main character - and she accepts this. One of the truly best written personalities. Minthara is a child of house Baenre - fear, pride and arrogance is in the females blood. She gave everything to Lolth and kept on surviving. The way she got infected is even in her own words because of her sense of self importance. Later on she is driven by vengeance against Orin and the thought of conquering the Absolute - perhaps even taking the reins herself or in case of romance together with Tav. My favourite party member ingame. Now Minsc... he is tough to crack open with this style of analysis, as he doesn't fit the criteria except for his slightly weird symbiotic/codependent relationship with a miniature giant spacehamster. Furthermore he seems to be very selfaware and lets Boo decide on matters he lacks knowledge in. His "delusion" is full trust in Boo, though we can never really see if Boo is as smart as Minsc lets on.
@@javiereraulmba9189 Sure, happy to oblige: In Jaheiras case it's the laurels of a hero and the strength of her allies. She believes in others abilities to do good, which is her downfall in Act 2 (and later notes in Act 3 reveal the same). She trusts to fast and doesn't question her allies motivation - Marcus is a prime example, the cleanup after the first Ketheric killing another. Her heroism and belief in the greater good is her downfall and what she slowly learns to accept. Karlach had ultimate trust in friendship and respect, which led to her getting blindsided by Gortash and her ignoring the really bad stuff he did. A little bit of naivete and youthful idiocy, as well as some pride in being Zariels enforcer (seen in some cases where you go through her dialogue options). She however does not confirm to the formula 100% as even on the own height of her story she will still not be the focus or the main character - and she accepts this. One of the truly best written personalities. Minthara is a child of house Baenre - fear, pride and arrogance is in the females blood. She gave everything to Lolth and kept on surviving. The way she got infected is even in her own words because of her sense of self importance. Later on she is driven by vengeance against Orin and the thought of conquering the Absolute - perhaps even taking the reins herself or in case of romance together with Tav. My favourite party member ingame. Now Minsc... he is tough to crack open with this style of analysis, as he doesn't fit the criteria except for his slightly weird symbiotic/codependent relationship with a miniature giant spacehamster. Furthermore he seems to be very selfaware and lets Boo decide on matters he lacks knowledge in. His "delusion" is full trust in Boo, though we can never really see if Boo is as smart as Minsc lets on.
@@TheTakkatakka So admittedly a good chunk of the characters fall on this but not everyone. Karlach and Minsc on point. I am a bit unsure about Jaheira´s point because her flaw is not about herself, but being betrayed. I don´t really think we can blame her for trusting in someone who belonged to the flaming fist for years and was an ally of the harpers
@@javiereraulmba9189 It's not so much "blaming for trusting", but more of a "some people are turncoats now, but our people can be trusted". She is getting on in age and turning inflexible in her approach (trust in goodness of others, being part of a heroic group), because she has always done it like this and never/seldomly failed. She aspired to be a hero, but failed her subordinates.
Eh, I don't think the Netherbrain being revealed to be the ultimate villain cheapens what Gortash set in motion. I just think it makes the playing field incredibly complex and interesting with the different actors working with and/or against one another. You have the Chosen of the Dead 3 working together and conspiring against one another at the same time, all while the Netherbrain is conspiring against them. Then you have the Emperor's own machinations and questionable behavior, the machinations of Vlaakith, Shar and other deities, the turf war between the Guild and the Zhentanim, devils like Raphael, Zariel and Mizora with their plans and schemes, along with Cazador the Vampire Lord. Literally EVERYONE is playing an angle or scheme in pursuit of greater power or something to that effect, and the party is consistently in the middle of it all. Can we just take a moment to appreciate that?
i see your point, it does feel very impressive to be honest to have so many factions and different angles in the pursue of power and how that affects your story and relationship with your party, it makes the world feel way larger than yourself, as a epic D&D inspired adventure like BG3 should, however i like the character concept of Gortash a lot and for me a way more focused third act on him and Orin over the Netherbrain, would have elevated both characters a lot in my eyes, now would have that made the game better? i don´t know honestly, i think is a matter of taste at that point.
As a fellow Gortash enjoyer I just love that in the world of magic and gods he is just Some Guy. And yeah, we get like 4 scenes with him, but it is SO satisfying to slowly unravel his history piece by piece by finding letters, journal entries and hearing little comments about him from NPCs. You actually have to do some work to get to know who he really is. I bet thats bc Larian did not have the time to actually give him a proper arc, but, damn, when you rob some vault in bank just to find information that he used to be a sugar baby of some rich old lady? I f-king love this game. Also, sure, he looks like man in his 40s and still in emo phase, but i do love his design, its gaudiness and grime. I like to think it's the opposite of Raphaels visage, who is an elegant, tidy perfumed noble, so Gortash's being unkempt, looking like he just rolled out of bed is kind of a FU to his previous master, who probably wanted to raise him as a mini-me mortal version of himself. Of course there's still a lot of Raphael in him - the same talking with your hands and using similar elaborate speech patterns but its nice to see all of his kitschy persona as an act of defiance. Also his drip is on point.
I think it makes sense how the villains stack up. Ketheric has something personal for a stake and the experience to be an actual threat that stands tall for Act 2. Orin is crazy but out of her depth, she stole her position but isn't up to hold it and lacks the actual mentality for the position she stole, she just wanted the title. Gortash is an opportunist who doesn't really care that much about anyone but himself. The Absolute business wasn't his idea either and he's just trying to capitalize on it. So, you have the original mastermind who was attacked and either murdered or made an amnesiac who, like Qui gon, would've been great if he didn't get got. An experienced warrior and general with a massive army behind him who has strong convictions to fight for so he won't go down easy. A brat with daddy issues way out of her league throwing a temper tantrum. Some dude, rapscallion, charlatan, etc who doesn't really care beyond what it can do for him.
I feel Gortash should have had content with the house of hope. like I'm not the only one that thought he would be interested in getting vengeance on Raphiel and getting useful magical gear just in case they couldn't regain control of the brain.
Yeah Bldur's Gate pulled a Kishimoto. Great powerful manipulator (Madara/Gortash) setting himself up as the final villain with great plans and etc just for a hidden manipulator and powerul being (Zetsu and Kaguya/Absolute) to say they orchestrated everything leaving the game and final fight lack luster.
I'm guessing the warlock who bought Gortash had a contract with Raphael that didn't turn out the way the warlock wanted, and that's how Gortash ended up in the House of Hope to begin with. It isn't implicitly stated, but it IS implied.
I can see how the game subverts expectations in a way similar to Naruto with Madara, or Game of Thrones with Danyaerys, and how that might not sit well with some people. But I don't necessarily think that weakens Gortash as a villain. I think that from the outset, the Illithid aspect is firmly entrenched in the consciousness of the player. We see the ceremorphosis from the very first part of the game, we have Laezel constantly reminding us that the Illithids are the real threat, and the tadpole is constantly hanging over us, like the Sword of Damocles. The game itself never lets us forget about the imminent threat of ceremorphosis. There is no point in the game where we are not completely aware of just how terrible a threat this Illithid aspect is. So, I don't think the reveal of the Netherbrain is so radical as to cheapen other characters. And this is exactly what players in a D&D campaign feel when they come across a threat from an Illithid City and an Elder Brain. So I don't see the encounter with the Netherbrain as something random. If anything, in some ways, it shows how brilliant Gortash truly is. He was able to navigate a very volatile political landscape, including Githyanki, Devils, Harpers, and worshippers of Bhaal and hold his own. I think one of the key lessons here is that as brilliant as the Triumvirate of Dark Urge/Orin, Ketheric and Gortash were, they were always playing with forces they couldn't comprehend. Great Video!
what annoyed me is that the game made it not that clear how to even get the most out of him...I expected to crash the coronation cinematically, but when I crashed the coronation I just...y'know...went in there and like any other fight had all the soldiers aggro (Gortash wasn't even there), killed them all and went up the tower where he was and, like before, just aggroed him and his minions, killed them with Gortash voicing one or two one-liners and that was it...?! Not a single cutscene/dialogue, only Orin coming to congratulate me after the next long rest. I'm pretty sure I did something wrong and that there is a way to crash the coronation properly, but I swear I wasn't actively trying to avoid it
That´s strange it might have been a bug or something like that, i´m pretty sure when you go to the coronation it always opens with gortash offering you an alliance, you can chose to fight him right there, but there is always a dialogue before, maybe there is something that triggers the agro beforehand that i don´t know...
@@RoleCrow1 now that I remember even the guards on the ground floor where attacking me before even entering the throne room...but I don't remember what I might've done that caused it. Well doesn't matter really as long as it doesn't happen in the next playthrough where I'll be more careful...it happened before patch 3 so it might be fixed by now anyway
imo, baldur's gate is short of a extra chapter. I feel like chapter 3 should end with you killing either Orim or Gortash, and chapter 4 being the netherbrain and the last chosen. Or chapter 3 should be all on Gortash (basically like we have in the game), and chapter 4 would be Orim and the netherbrain attacking the city.
I like the character idea of screaming a politically induced villain in a mix of three major villains we have. Still, the execution of this idea has not been the best despite his brilliant character design and actor performance conveying a political and scheming villain he would have needed more screen time and more scenes to interact with him to make this arch-type work.
Gortash was my favorite of the big 3 but then again Ketheric is JK Simmons so its still a tough choice. Orin was a complete pushover though, easier than owlbear
I was really disappointed in gortash on my first playthrough because i skipped meeting him when i got to Baldur's Gate. Indid everything to weaken his hold without confrontimg him and when i finally went to meat him he was already hostile. I never engaged a single dialog with him.him all of act 3
The three chosen are ass. Ketheric is the best, he got more screen time, but all of them are probably the worst 3 characters in the entire game. Gortash was so unremarkable that I forgot to kill him in my first run and I had to go back to his fortress after I had already killed Orin.
Ketheric felt like a character, gortash and Orin just felt like obstacles, two big mean faces with big glowing weak points on them just classic video game bosses.
Imho, Gortash has the weakest motivation among BG3 villains: Ketheric did everything to protect his daughter, Orin was involved in sibling rivalry and wanted to be the chosen of Bhaal herself, Gortash's main motivation is just lust for power. In general, villains in BG3 are not really villainous: player's character kills as many people as they did, even in a good playthrough player is supposed to slaughter goblins, duergar, Ketheric troops, Gortash's Flaming Fists, etc. While all of those are supposedly evil, they all are brainwashed and under the command of True Souls, who essentially have no free will. So these are really innocents who were manipulated or outright taken over by the Elder Brain. So the main villain is Elder Brain, who needs a constant supply of brains to feed her illithids etc., hence the myriad of dead bodies in the illithid colony, and makes all True Souls to commit all those atrocities. Gortash himself doesn't differ that much from the modern corporation executives: he owns a factory run by slave workers (like every corporation nowadays) and wants more power. For some reason he is also behind explosive toys plot, which generally doesn't make any sense, and devs were unable to combine that quest with anything else. The rest is on Baldur's Gate council: they agreed for Gortash to become one of them, they were impressed with Steel Watch, and they allowed for Gortash to freely extend his influence. Generally, Elder Brain lacks personality, so I suppose that's why game devs added Chosen Three to the mix. In the end, the whole plot doesn't really make much sense. Dead Three are very weakened, they were already killed at least once in DnD, so I guess that's why they need Elder Brain to prop up their powers. But at the same time they are achieving somebody's else goal: they do not profit from the Great Design, as Withers observed himself, since illithids destroy souls, and gods need souls. And at any time they risk that Elder Brain will free herself from the Netherstone domination, what happened very easily in the game. Taking the control of the Absolute by the Dark Urge (what is apparently Bhaal's goal) is a total stupidity anyway, since the Dark Urge is tadpoled, so who controls who (especially when Orpheus protection is no longer there)? Apparently the whole evil plot was rewritten during development (e.g., Emperor was supposed to be one of the villains), so I guess that's why it lacks cohesion. Dead Three taking control over the Elder Brain through their Chosen doesn't really make much sense.
I definitely do agree that Gortash felt a bit underdeveloped and under used. What I think caused this issue though is the game's focus on player freedom. The player can decide when or how to engage in content and if they chose not to engage with it at all that is fine. What this means is that all types of players must at least get the basic jist of a character. Every player will understand that Gortash is a tyrant. They may not no the specifics but they know that. But that understanding will be shallow. Player freedom isn't bad but it does mean the story won't achieve the heights other games with more control have. I personally think BG3 could have been better if it was a bit more limiting.
Very good point, i certainly agree that sometimes the narrative and immersion on a RPG suffers a bit when a game is way to "open", i will actually talk a bit about that on my next video, of course player freedom on an RPG is one of the most important aspects, specially for a game based on D&D like BG3, however some titles do benefit a lot from having a much more focused experience.
@@RoleCrow1 you don't know how wonderful that is to hear. I have been saying this to people but they don't seem to understand what I mean. BG3's story isn't bad it is just tailored to its needs. Meaning that a game like the Witcher which does restrict player choice can have a better narrative. Thank you for saying this. Bloody subscribing because of that. I want to ask you another question; do you think the companions suffer from this openness?
@@Knight1029 I would say that at least on BG3 it depends on if you prefer the companions to have a very well defined personality/moral compass over you having the ability to change their goals and outcomes, like yes the main attraction of a game like BG3 is the freedom of choice, but then you have a scenario like with Shadowheart questline where you can convince her to change her whole life purpose pretty easy, i´m not saying this is bad, i think it depends on what the devs are going for.
@@RoleCrow1 I think being able to change a companions personality or morality is fine. My main issue is that the companions don't feel like they work as both companions or playable characters. That and they don't feel like they are apart of the story. Because you can basically ignore them meaning the game doesn't really emphasize them that much.
@@Knight1029Act 2 is quite "restricted" and experiencing it is effen EPIC. Even Act 1 is quite linear, in so far as play is leading to a specific outcome: deciding the fate of the tieflings and the Grove. Then in Act 3 it's wide open and guess what? It's boring. Lessons need to be taken from tabletop here. In tabletop players have total freedom. But it's not an unstructured free for all. Well, sometimes it is -- but if that's the norm, it gets boring fast That's why the GM does prep. And whether you're in the high prep camp or the improv, seat-of-your-pants camp, it doesn't matter. You're still collectively telling a story and that story has structure.
I think they wanted Gortash to be this uneventful villain, this guy who lacked any substance because that would be his biggest irk, being completely forgettable
Kinda wish Gortash encounters to be a bit more menacing and impactful in the game when I first saw him. Vilgefortz was a menace in the Witcher book, even in the very end. Gortash disappoints me a lot when I progress further in act 3. Same with Orin.
the best villain in the game is hands down *the emperor*. because he doesnt roll high charisma checks on the player charakter but the player himself. i would say there are 50% of the player who think he is a good guy. that i call master manipulator in my book
I love this. And absolutely 8000% Gortash is so wasted in this game. I'm going to assert, however, that the aging emo thing actually works for his character. He seems like the kind of guy who'd be trying a bit too hard socially :) Also, "a younger handsome man" is how he's seen through *Gut's* eyes so it might not be a reliable point of view. Logically, Gortash is AT LEAST in his 30s, since he sold Karlach to Zariel a full decade ago. Just sayin'. That said, Kethric is also wasted. Yeah, he's better realised than Gortash in game, but still... a character with so much power and gravitas... and he's dead by the end of Act 2. Le sigh.
Thanks for the video! Gortash is def one of my favorites. I'm disappointed how rushed the game was. First Act was the only completely fleshed out and bug-free. Act 3 was terribly rushed. I wish the villains had more time to do things. The fact that you never even get an ending with any of them is unforgivable. I feel like if they took more time to work on their game, it could've been so much better. I wanted my evil queen ending with him where we take over the world, and they robbed me of that. But yes, the fact that you only see them fully in at the end of Act 2, more than halfway through the game. Bad choice IMO. I didn't care for the brain at all since it had no build up. But Gortash's backstory was well-done (even though I didn't like how it was executed, like how I feel about most things in this game). You already covered his backstory, so I won't repeat it. He's the only one who had the most backstory to him, and reasons why he became the way he did. The other two were kinda forgotten. After Thorm died, it was like he never existed. You talk to his daughter once and that's it. Orin probably has more, but I didn't see it on my first playthrough, so there's that. There was so much more they could've done with Gortash, but they rushed their game, so I like to come up with my own ending that I wish I would've gotten in order to make myself feel better.
The biggest flaw in BG3 wasn't the fact that Orin and Gortash aren't as formidable as Ketheric, its the order in which they are fought. If we had Gortash and Orin 1st/2nd and had the build up to Ketheric after already fighting him I think we wouldn't have so many issues as Ketheric would be established as the bigger boss to defeat.
There's sooooo much they could have done with Orin. Like more in to her family life, like how she literally a product of incest and how she's unstable because of her crappy family.
Shallow is okay, as long as it’s vivid and believable on a basic level. Raphael is a great villain but he’s not exactly deep. For me, the main issue with Orin is that motivationally she’s too alien. Raphael wants power - that’s a human passion. Ketheric’s grief, also relatable. Just wanting to kill for the sheer ecstasy of killing isn’t relatable at all. So she’s vivid, yes, and brilliantly voice acted… but she’s just not believable enough on a basic level to get under your skin.
@@johndeighan2495 I don't think so man. While sadism is not a basic human drive, most people, me included, like Camelia, a psychopath from pathfinder: wrath of the righteous. It's just Orin was never built up.
@@Tentacl Camelia was a psycho, but a also believable character, motivationally and behaviourally. Psychopaths are still human, after all. But Orin is too distant from the motives and behaviours we recognize within ourselves to really convince as a character. Purely as a caricature, she's fun and well-acted. But she's not a successful character like Camelia was.
Hin in my Opinion its the Worst Villain in the Game After Beating this game more then 12 times my dude.. i can tell yu one Thing.. Act 3 sux is the weaker Part of this Game witch is Kinda of a Joke Becouse the Game name is Baldurs gate but when yu Reach the City the Game fall of the Clif..haha Orin its a Lot Better then Hin at Least but she sux a Little Bit too. BTW i can only Tolerate the Weak ending of this Game now Becouse of the Patch 5 epilogue.. Becouse before that.. Man the only cool ending yu could Get was the Evil one.. (Becoming Absolute..) And just a Fun Fact.. The Weak ending of this Game its nothing Normal for Larian ok.. Ever Played DO2 ?! Give a Try the Game is Great too.. but the Ending.. Sux just like this.
Honestly, i think Gortash having so much wasted potential IS kind of what makes his character for me. While it would have been great if he had had more screentime (same as Orin), I do think the tragedy of these two characters unfolds between the lines, and them being revealed to have been pawns to a greater eldritch being only reinforces that. The Netherbrain's revelation, it shows that, while powerful in their own ways, at the end of the day the Chosen are little more than... just a sad, lonely, broken girl raised from infancy to know nothing but murder (she lives in a bloodsoaked sewer full of rotting carrion and excrement for crying out loud), a sad, lonely, broken man whose whole life was torn from him multiple times over and was driven to madness by grief, and a sad, lonely, broken boy from a loveless home whose bitterness over the injustices he's suffered drove him to embrace cruel ideologies, and to let himself be blinded by his own cleverness and the promise of power. Their tragedies come FROM wasted potential: from them thinking themselves in control, and yet being woefully mistaken, cast aside once they've outlived their usefulness. (Just like the PC is, if they refuse to go with the Emperor's plan and elect to free Orpheus: they too are swiftly cast aside by their cruel illithid puppeteer.)
Ketheric is undoubtedly the best villain in the whole game (I can't even force myself to not feel just... utterly sorry for him, and his introduction scene is just incredibly striking), but Gortash too is a brilliant character, only... definitely more in retrospect. He lives in his journals, his little notes sent to the Dark Urge character, in the subtlety of his characterization when speaking to Karlach.
And, for the record, I personally think he's plenty handsome (if unkempt, in a way someone under a lot of pressure like he is might be), and looks like he might be in his mid- to late 30's, which is plenty young. His clothes too I think are purposeful: they're ostentatious, but in a way that it shows that they were chosen by a man with more money than taste. A shallow show of status, a costume, moreso than anything genuine, which... kind of makes it perfect.
Gortash also gets some extra hidden story in his special relationship with a Durge OC. Would love to have seen that fleshed out more
In my opinion, neither Orin nor Gortash hold a candle to Ketheric, he makes the entirety of Act 2 a joy to play.
Agreed, yet i believe that they would have been equally imposing, if they had more time to shine
Agreed. The three should have had more time.
he's barely in it tho??
Yeah, but JK@@highdefinition450
@@highdefinition450The center plot of Act 2 revolves around him though
as evil as gortash is, i am not sorry for what happened to sally and dravo. they looked at their own child and saw a monster, and a monster is what he became, because of them. they fucking earned the tadpoling more than any other person in the entire game.
I just want a Dark Urge and Gortash ending.
As soon as Orin betrayed the dark urge, complete control over the elder brain was lost. They demonstrated that they did not have complete control over the three Netherstones. This is all the Netherbrain needed to enact its own plan. So, infighting among the leaders brought them down.
Such a shame he is a wasted villain/ally. I wish you could have a ending with him dammit
Agreed or at least that he was present on the final battle.
Hells yeah. Evil characters should totally be able to take him up on his offer to be co-tyrants of Faerun.
He's gotta be an Order Domain Cleric
bonk
The way he dies when you ally with him is so sudden and underwhelming its disappointing, I genuinely wanted to ally with him as Durge and think it would really cool if there was an alternate evil ending for the two of them, considering Durge is the only one he sees as a worthy equal.
I feel like there has to be an insane amount of cut content related to Gortash and the Dark Urge specifically because there are a ton of letters between the two of them that detail their relationship and partnership, going back even before Gortash became the Chosen of Bane. Their relationship is extremely interesting.
i honestly think that gortash is a very compelling character on the level of a companion. his role in the story was either underdeveloped in comparison to his character, or his character/backstory were overdeveloped in comparison to his role in the story.
I think for all the factions the game has by act three, the Chosen of Bhaal and Bane, both Githyanki groups, Raphael, and all of the organizations of Baldur's Gate, I think Gortash really is an impressive character. To an extent, he and the Dark Urge kind of take on Sarevok's role from Baldur's Gate 1, and then Gortash really assumed the role once the Urge was usurped by Orin. Gortash, like Sarevok, wove a web of intrigue and lies that would sow chaos in Baldur's Gate and allow him to take charge of the city. He was the one who suggested taking the Crown of Karsus and using it on the Elder Brain. Had he not underestimated the Elder Brain, much as Sarevok underestimated Gorion's Ward, he'd have had the perfect plan.
The Elder Brain was simply smarter. It's literally the equivalent of a supercomputer, and it found a way, even in captivity, to manipulate the Chosen into causing their own downfall.
Gortash really was a brilliant villain, but without his partnership with the Dark Urge, there really was nothing holding the Chosen together. His ego also wouldn't allow a chance that his plan could be foiled, so he chased after the Astral Prism just like the Netherbrain wanted him to. He's really a perfect example of a tyrant, with all of the shortcomings of one as well.
Both Gortash and Orin deserved more screen time tbh. You can learn so much about them just from talking to NPCs and reading bits and pieces around the city. But we never really get to KNOW them like we do Ketheric.
Also Artificer is such a cracked out class that I can understand why Larian decided not add it. Endless potential that might get overwhelming to newer players.
Gortash would have been a better villian if he only knew that these boots have seen everything.
Considering that BG3 is one of the best games ever made, it’s crazy to think how much unrealized potential it has. I look at Act 3 and think wow, this is great… yet there is SO much room for improvement. Gortash is only one element of that.
Agreed, this video was more of a love letter than harsh criticism, we have to accept that even the best games of all time aren't perfect
Gortash and Orin were wasted, imo. They should have gotten their own Act like Ketheric did.
Even Kethric is wasted imo. So much gravitas and so little screen time in comparison. After Kethric everything else is anti-climax.
All three of the Chosen got the short end, in different ways.
@@PaulRGauthier I can't disagree with this at all. The pacing for all the villains was just kind of lackluster.
In theory I thought it was a solid concept...one top general in act 2 as the main baddie and two more for the last act before facing the big boss. In act 2 I think it was done very well as Ketheric was clearly the main influence of the act and by the end I was satisfied with Ketheric and intrigued with the other two, but in act 3 the problem was that instead of being the two main forces they kinda just slotted in equally not just between each other but also ALL the companion's storylines and other optional storylines which all climax in act 3 but none intertwine with Orin and/or Gortash.
Like imagine playing through act 3 (before climax) without doing the companion quests...I'd think then they would actually dominate the act like they're supposed to. I was fine that they didn't get as much background/attention as Ketheric since after defeating one, defeating the others logically becomes less of a milestone. But the sheer amount of content that they weren't part of made them seem lesser than they should've been.
Orin has no promise, but Gortash has so much...
I don’t think it’s ever confirmed but Korrilla is the only warlock who has a pact with Raphael that we’ve met, so she may be the same warlock that took Gortash
Wasn't Helsik the one who helped them with the heist?
@@joshuabuckle1216 yeah, she’s a warlock of Mammon
The huge difference is the fact act 2 is a 20 hour section where from beginning to end, Ketheric is the source of villainy.
Versus act 3: Gortash, Orin, Ethel, Cazador, Viconia, Sarevok, Ansur, The Emperor, The Absolute, Lorroakan etc. You have a collection of villains in the 60 hour act 3 versus One villain and his subordinates in act 2
Much like with Cazador, the build-up before coming face to face with Gortash was amazing. But other than Cazador, even after interacting with him he was still a cool character and I was intrigued. After all that build-up I expected him to play a much larger role in Act 3 than he did. My friend and I made a pact with him and I thought I picked a wrong option somewhere when he just .. well, you know what happened. Such a shame.
yep i actually forgot to mention what happens with him if you go all the way with his alliance, it´s so disappointing
It would be super cool to play a prequel with him and the Dark Urge, or even a sequel where he comes back as an uneasy ally or something! I think I'm just obsessed with his chesty hairs though, so :(
Just watched it, after getting recommended by the algorithm.
I believe one of the overarcing parts of Baldur's Gate 3 is "the illusion of grandeur". Every character believes themselves to be on top of their game, whilst EVERYONE ends up being a pawn.
Just look at the 3 Chosen BBEGs:
1. Ketheric trying to surpass the gods, since they "betrayed" him.
2. Orin supplanting the DUrge because she believes herself to be the Chosen as a direct descendant of Sarevok himself the favorite child of Bhaal.
3. Enver enshrining himself as the most diabolical, intelligent and brilliant mastermind.
You have the Emperor, believing himself above the Netherbrain and trusting in his own ingenuity. Gale, believing himself on par - nay - above Mystra. Lae'zel believing herself to be the chosen amongst her kin to serve Vlaakith. Shadowheart who believes that she serves her Goddess out of her own free will. Wyll OBVIOUSLY being bound by Mizora, who in turn tries to occupy Zariel. Raphael who wants to take over the Hells themselves.
EVERY character falls flat in this specific case, and it makes them more human alltogether. This is why it is such a delight with the revelation of the Netherbrain controlling everything from behind the scenes, since it itself believes to be above us - the players.
This is just awesome writing in retrospective, but in the moment it really takes away the illusions of power that we were presented with throughout the game.
So I am curious and willing to be the pedantic asshole. What about Karlach, Jaheira, Minsc and Minthara? I would ask about Astarion, but Ascendant vampires are apparently arrogant assholes
@@javiereraulmba9189 Sure, happy to oblige:
In Jaheiras case it's the laurels of a hero and the strength of her allies. She believes in others abilities to do good, which is her downfall in Act 2 (and later notes in Act 3 reveal the same). She trusts to fast and doesn't question her allies motivation - Marcus is a prime example, the cleanup after the first Ketheric killing another. Her heroism and belief in the greater good is her downfall and what she slowly learns to accept.
Karlach had ultimate trust in friendship and respect, which led to her getting blindsided by Gortash and her ignoring the really bad stuff he did. A little bit of naivete and youthful idiocy, as well as some pride in being Zariels enforcer (seen in some cases where you go through her dialogue options). She however does not confirm to the formula 100% as even on the own height of her story she will still not be the focus or the main character - and she accepts this. One of the truly best written personalities.
Minthara is a child of house Baenre - fear, pride and arrogance is in the females blood. She gave everything to Lolth and kept on surviving. The way she got infected is even in her own words because of her sense of self importance. Later on she is driven by vengeance against Orin and the thought of conquering the Absolute - perhaps even taking the reins herself or in case of romance together with Tav. My favourite party member ingame.
Now Minsc... he is tough to crack open with this style of analysis, as he doesn't fit the criteria except for his slightly weird symbiotic/codependent relationship with a miniature giant spacehamster. Furthermore he seems to be very selfaware and lets Boo decide on matters he lacks knowledge in. His "delusion" is full trust in Boo, though we can never really see if Boo is as smart as Minsc lets on.
@@javiereraulmba9189 Sure, happy to oblige:
In Jaheiras case it's the laurels of a hero and the strength of her allies. She believes in others abilities to do good, which is her downfall in Act 2 (and later notes in Act 3 reveal the same). She trusts to fast and doesn't question her allies motivation - Marcus is a prime example, the cleanup after the first Ketheric killing another. Her heroism and belief in the greater good is her downfall and what she slowly learns to accept.
Karlach had ultimate trust in friendship and respect, which led to her getting blindsided by Gortash and her ignoring the really bad stuff he did. A little bit of naivete and youthful idiocy, as well as some pride in being Zariels enforcer (seen in some cases where you go through her dialogue options). She however does not confirm to the formula 100% as even on the own height of her story she will still not be the focus or the main character - and she accepts this. One of the truly best written personalities.
Minthara is a child of house Baenre - fear, pride and arrogance is in the females blood. She gave everything to Lolth and kept on surviving. The way she got infected is even in her own words because of her sense of self importance. Later on she is driven by vengeance against Orin and the thought of conquering the Absolute - perhaps even taking the reins herself or in case of romance together with Tav. My favourite party member ingame.
Now Minsc... he is tough to crack open with this style of analysis, as he doesn't fit the criteria except for his slightly weird symbiotic/codependent relationship with a miniature giant spacehamster. Furthermore he seems to be very selfaware and lets Boo decide on matters he lacks knowledge in. His "delusion" is full trust in Boo, though we can never really see if Boo is as smart as Minsc lets on.
@@TheTakkatakka So admittedly a good chunk of the characters fall on this but not everyone. Karlach and Minsc on point. I am a bit unsure about Jaheira´s point because her flaw is not about herself, but being betrayed. I don´t really think we can blame her for trusting in someone who belonged to the flaming fist for years and was an ally of the harpers
@@javiereraulmba9189 It's not so much "blaming for trusting", but more of a "some people are turncoats now, but our people can be trusted". She is getting on in age and turning inflexible in her approach (trust in goodness of others, being part of a heroic group), because she has always done it like this and never/seldomly failed. She aspired to be a hero, but failed her subordinates.
Eh, I don't think the Netherbrain being revealed to be the ultimate villain cheapens what Gortash set in motion. I just think it makes the playing field incredibly complex and interesting with the different actors working with and/or against one another. You have the Chosen of the Dead 3 working together and conspiring against one another at the same time, all while the Netherbrain is conspiring against them. Then you have the Emperor's own machinations and questionable behavior, the machinations of Vlaakith, Shar and other deities, the turf war between the Guild and the Zhentanim, devils like Raphael, Zariel and Mizora with their plans and schemes, along with Cazador the Vampire Lord. Literally EVERYONE is playing an angle or scheme in pursuit of greater power or something to that effect, and the party is consistently in the middle of it all. Can we just take a moment to appreciate that?
i see your point, it does feel very impressive to be honest to have so many factions and different angles in the pursue of power and how that affects your story and relationship with your party, it makes the world feel way larger than yourself, as a epic D&D inspired adventure like BG3 should, however i like the character concept of Gortash a lot and for me a way more focused third act on him and Orin over the Netherbrain, would have elevated both characters a lot in my eyes, now would have that made the game better? i don´t know honestly, i think is a matter of taste at that point.
As a fellow Gortash enjoyer I just love that in the world of magic and gods he is just Some Guy. And yeah, we get like 4 scenes with him, but it is SO satisfying to slowly unravel his history piece by piece by finding letters, journal entries and hearing little comments about him from NPCs. You actually have to do some work to get to know who he really is. I bet thats bc Larian did not have the time to actually give him a proper arc, but, damn, when you rob some vault in bank just to find information that he used to be a sugar baby of some rich old lady? I f-king love this game.
Also, sure, he looks like man in his 40s and still in emo phase, but i do love his design, its gaudiness and grime. I like to think it's the opposite of Raphaels visage, who is an elegant, tidy perfumed noble, so Gortash's being unkempt, looking like he just rolled out of bed is kind of a FU to his previous master, who probably wanted to raise him as a mini-me mortal version of himself. Of course there's still a lot of Raphael in him - the same talking with your hands and using similar elaborate speech patterns but its nice to see all of his kitschy persona as an act of defiance.
Also his drip is on point.
I'd like to point out that if you stay with Gortash, he'll be loyal and die fighting nether brain with you.
Okay but he styled his hair after Final Fantasy 15's Noctis.
I think it makes sense how the villains stack up.
Ketheric has something personal for a stake and the experience to be an actual threat that stands tall for Act 2.
Orin is crazy but out of her depth, she stole her position but isn't up to hold it and lacks the actual mentality for the position she stole, she just wanted the title.
Gortash is an opportunist who doesn't really care that much about anyone but himself. The Absolute business wasn't his idea either and he's just trying to capitalize on it.
So, you have the original mastermind who was attacked and either murdered or made an amnesiac who, like Qui gon, would've been great if he didn't get got.
An experienced warrior and general with a massive army behind him who has strong convictions to fight for so he won't go down easy.
A brat with daddy issues way out of her league throwing a temper tantrum.
Some dude, rapscallion, charlatan, etc who doesn't really care beyond what it can do for him.
I feel Gortash should have had content with the house of hope. like I'm not the only one that thought he would be interested in getting vengeance on Raphiel and getting useful magical gear just in case they couldn't regain control of the brain.
Yeah Bldur's Gate pulled a Kishimoto. Great powerful manipulator (Madara/Gortash) setting himself up as the final villain with great plans and etc just for a hidden manipulator and powerul being (Zetsu and Kaguya/Absolute) to say they orchestrated everything leaving the game and final fight lack luster.
I'm guessing the warlock who bought Gortash had a contract with Raphael that didn't turn out the way the warlock wanted, and that's how Gortash ended up in the House of Hope to begin with. It isn't implicitly stated, but it IS implied.
he keeps his words, I don’t know if he is a super bad guy.
I can see how the game subverts expectations in a way similar to Naruto with Madara, or Game of Thrones with Danyaerys, and how that might not sit well with some people. But I don't necessarily think that weakens Gortash as a villain.
I think that from the outset, the Illithid aspect is firmly entrenched in the consciousness of the player. We see the ceremorphosis from the very first part of the game, we have Laezel constantly reminding us that the Illithids are the real threat, and the tadpole is constantly hanging over us, like the Sword of Damocles. The game itself never lets us forget about the imminent threat of ceremorphosis. There is no point in the game where we are not completely aware of just how terrible a threat this Illithid aspect is. So, I don't think the reveal of the Netherbrain is so radical as to cheapen other characters. And this is exactly what players in a D&D campaign feel when they come across a threat from an Illithid City and an Elder Brain. So I don't see the encounter with the Netherbrain as something random.
If anything, in some ways, it shows how brilliant Gortash truly is. He was able to navigate a very volatile political landscape, including Githyanki, Devils, Harpers, and worshippers of Bhaal and hold his own.
I think one of the key lessons here is that as brilliant as the Triumvirate of Dark Urge/Orin, Ketheric and Gortash were, they were always playing with forces they couldn't comprehend.
Great Video!
what annoyed me is that the game made it not that clear how to even get the most out of him...I expected to crash the coronation cinematically, but when I crashed the coronation I just...y'know...went in there and like any other fight had all the soldiers aggro (Gortash wasn't even there), killed them all and went up the tower where he was and, like before, just aggroed him and his minions, killed them with Gortash voicing one or two one-liners and that was it...?! Not a single cutscene/dialogue, only Orin coming to congratulate me after the next long rest.
I'm pretty sure I did something wrong and that there is a way to crash the coronation properly, but I swear I wasn't actively trying to avoid it
That´s strange it might have been a bug or something like that, i´m pretty sure when you go to the coronation it always opens with gortash offering you an alliance, you can chose to fight him right there, but there is always a dialogue before, maybe there is something that triggers the agro beforehand that i don´t know...
@@RoleCrow1 now that I remember even the guards on the ground floor where attacking me before even entering the throne room...but I don't remember what I might've done that caused it. Well doesn't matter really as long as it doesn't happen in the next playthrough where I'll be more careful...it happened before patch 3 so it might be fixed by now anyway
imo, baldur's gate is short of a extra chapter. I feel like chapter 3 should end with you killing either Orim or Gortash, and chapter 4 being the netherbrain and the last chosen. Or chapter 3 should be all on Gortash (basically like we have in the game), and chapter 4 would be Orim and the netherbrain attacking the city.
I finally figured out who he looks like! Lead singer of Deftones!
Just googled it, spot on, but combined with like a wardrobe from My Chemical Romance
I like the character idea of screaming a politically induced villain in a mix of three major villains we have. Still, the execution of this idea has not been the best despite his brilliant character design and actor performance conveying a political and scheming villain he would have needed more screen time and more scenes to interact with him to make this arch-type work.
yep, i believe that all the pieces are there in the backstory and worldbuilding, but not enough time for it to show during game
Gortash was my favorite of the big 3 but then again Ketheric is JK Simmons so its still a tough choice. Orin was a complete pushover though, easier than owlbear
I was really disappointed in gortash on my first playthrough because i skipped meeting him when i got to Baldur's Gate. Indid everything to weaken his hold without confrontimg him and when i finally went to meat him he was already hostile. I never engaged a single dialog with him.him all of act 3
Gortash reminds me of Reaver from the Fable series.
Well done on the video. I think you're right
I just want my Durge character to marry this sweet piece of Gortass
The three chosen are ass. Ketheric is the best, he got more screen time, but all of them are probably the worst 3 characters in the entire game. Gortash was so unremarkable that I forgot to kill him in my first run and I had to go back to his fortress after I had already killed Orin.
I think he's a good villian IMO. Wish we could've had a real allyship with him considering he wasn't lying. I think he could've turned good
Both Orin and Gortash work best in a Durge playthrough.
Ketheric felt like a character, gortash and Orin just felt like obstacles, two big mean faces with big glowing weak points on them just classic video game bosses.
Withers: *Sighed Heavily* Such Wasted Potential.
Imho, Gortash has the weakest motivation among BG3 villains: Ketheric did everything to protect his daughter, Orin was involved in sibling rivalry and wanted to be the chosen of Bhaal herself, Gortash's main motivation is just lust for power. In general, villains in BG3 are not really villainous: player's character kills as many people as they did, even in a good playthrough player is supposed to slaughter goblins, duergar, Ketheric troops, Gortash's Flaming Fists, etc. While all of those are supposedly evil, they all are brainwashed and under the command of True Souls, who essentially have no free will. So these are really innocents who were manipulated or outright taken over by the Elder Brain. So the main villain is Elder Brain, who needs a constant supply of brains to feed her illithids etc., hence the myriad of dead bodies in the illithid colony, and makes all True Souls to commit all those atrocities. Gortash himself doesn't differ that much from the modern corporation executives: he owns a factory run by slave workers (like every corporation nowadays) and wants more power. For some reason he is also behind explosive toys plot, which generally doesn't make any sense, and devs were unable to combine that quest with anything else. The rest is on Baldur's Gate council: they agreed for Gortash to become one of them, they were impressed with Steel Watch, and they allowed for Gortash to freely extend his influence.
Generally, Elder Brain lacks personality, so I suppose that's why game devs added Chosen Three to the mix. In the end, the whole plot doesn't really make much sense. Dead Three are very weakened, they were already killed at least once in DnD, so I guess that's why they need Elder Brain to prop up their powers. But at the same time they are achieving somebody's else goal: they do not profit from the Great Design, as Withers observed himself, since illithids destroy souls, and gods need souls. And at any time they risk that Elder Brain will free herself from the Netherstone domination, what happened very easily in the game. Taking the control of the Absolute by the Dark Urge (what is apparently Bhaal's goal) is a total stupidity anyway, since the Dark Urge is tadpoled, so who controls who (especially when Orpheus protection is no longer there)? Apparently the whole evil plot was rewritten during development (e.g., Emperor was supposed to be one of the villains), so I guess that's why it lacks cohesion. Dead Three taking control over the Elder Brain through their Chosen doesn't really make much sense.
Wasted potential of Great Villian
idk where you accent is from but I love it a lot
Good video, congratulations
Thanks!
As usual with Larian, we need to wait for the Enhanced Edition.
They already accomplished a lot given the money and time constraints.
I definitely do agree that Gortash felt a bit underdeveloped and under used. What I think caused this issue though is the game's focus on player freedom. The player can decide when or how to engage in content and if they chose not to engage with it at all that is fine. What this means is that all types of players must at least get the basic jist of a character. Every player will understand that Gortash is a tyrant. They may not no the specifics but they know that. But that understanding will be shallow.
Player freedom isn't bad but it does mean the story won't achieve the heights other games with more control have. I personally think BG3 could have been better if it was a bit more limiting.
Very good point, i certainly agree that sometimes the narrative and immersion on a RPG suffers a bit when a game is way to "open", i will actually talk a bit about that on my next video, of course player freedom on an RPG is one of the most important aspects, specially for a game based on D&D like BG3, however some titles do benefit a lot from having a much more focused experience.
@@RoleCrow1 you don't know how wonderful that is to hear. I have been saying this to people but they don't seem to understand what I mean. BG3's story isn't bad it is just tailored to its needs. Meaning that a game like the Witcher which does restrict player choice can have a better narrative. Thank you for saying this. Bloody subscribing because of that.
I want to ask you another question; do you think the companions suffer from this openness?
@@Knight1029 I would say that at least on BG3 it depends on if you prefer the companions to have a very well defined personality/moral compass over you having the ability to change their goals and outcomes, like yes the main attraction of a game like BG3 is the freedom of choice, but then you have a scenario like with Shadowheart questline where you can convince her to change her whole life purpose pretty easy, i´m not saying this is bad, i think it depends on what the devs are going for.
@@RoleCrow1 I think being able to change a companions personality or morality is fine. My main issue is that the companions don't feel like they work as both companions or playable characters. That and they don't feel like they are apart of the story. Because you can basically ignore them meaning the game doesn't really emphasize them that much.
@@Knight1029Act 2 is quite "restricted" and experiencing it is effen EPIC. Even Act 1 is quite linear, in so far as play is leading to a specific outcome: deciding the fate of the tieflings and the Grove. Then in Act 3 it's wide open and guess what? It's boring.
Lessons need to be taken from tabletop here. In tabletop players have total freedom. But it's not an unstructured free for all. Well, sometimes it is -- but if that's the norm, it gets boring fast That's why the GM does prep. And whether you're in the high prep camp or the improv, seat-of-your-pants camp, it doesn't matter. You're still collectively telling a story and that story has structure.
I think they wanted Gortash to be this uneventful villain, this guy who lacked any substance because that would be his biggest irk, being completely forgettable
I'm not gonna lie. Gortash did remind me of Vilgefortz but rather a weaker version of the sorcerer.
Exactly what i meant! like a nerfed version of him.
Kinda wish Gortash encounters to be a bit more menacing and impactful in the game when I first saw him. Vilgefortz was a menace in the Witcher book, even in the very end. Gortash disappoints me a lot when I progress further in act 3. Same with Orin.
the best villain in the game is hands down *the emperor*. because he doesnt roll high charisma checks on the player charakter but the player himself. i would say there are 50% of the player who think he is a good guy. that i call master manipulator in my book
I love this. And absolutely 8000% Gortash is so wasted in this game.
I'm going to assert, however, that the aging emo thing actually works for his character. He seems like the kind of guy who'd be trying a bit too hard socially :) Also, "a younger handsome man" is how he's seen through *Gut's* eyes so it might not be a reliable point of view. Logically, Gortash is AT LEAST in his 30s, since he sold Karlach to Zariel a full decade ago. Just sayin'.
That said, Kethric is also wasted. Yeah, he's better realised than Gortash in game, but still... a character with so much power and gravitas... and he's dead by the end of Act 2. Le sigh.
Thanks for the video! Gortash is def one of my favorites. I'm disappointed how rushed the game was. First Act was the only completely fleshed out and bug-free. Act 3 was terribly rushed. I wish the villains had more time to do things. The fact that you never even get an ending with any of them is unforgivable. I feel like if they took more time to work on their game, it could've been so much better. I wanted my evil queen ending with him where we take over the world, and they robbed me of that.
But yes, the fact that you only see them fully in at the end of Act 2, more than halfway through the game. Bad choice IMO. I didn't care for the brain at all since it had no build up.
But Gortash's backstory was well-done (even though I didn't like how it was executed, like how I feel about most things in this game). You already covered his backstory, so I won't repeat it. He's the only one who had the most backstory to him, and reasons why he became the way he did. The other two were kinda forgotten. After Thorm died, it was like he never existed. You talk to his daughter once and that's it. Orin probably has more, but I didn't see it on my first playthrough, so there's that.
There was so much more they could've done with Gortash, but they rushed their game, so I like to come up with my own ending that I wish I would've gotten in order to make myself feel better.
The biggest flaw in BG3 wasn't the fact that Orin and Gortash aren't as formidable as Ketheric, its the order in which they are fought. If we had Gortash and Orin 1st/2nd and had the build up to Ketheric after already fighting him I think we wouldn't have so many issues as Ketheric would be established as the bigger boss to defeat.
Work on your volume please.
Noted, thanks for the feedback friend!
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Frankly the only well developed villain is Thorm. The psycho girl is shallow as a puddle and this guy is just Donald Trump.
There's sooooo much they could have done with Orin. Like more in to her family life, like how she literally a product of incest and how she's unstable because of her crappy family.
Enver Gortash is quite obviously a Democrat lol.
Shallow is okay, as long as it’s vivid and believable on a basic level. Raphael is a great villain but he’s not exactly deep. For me, the main issue with Orin is that motivationally she’s too alien. Raphael wants power - that’s a human passion. Ketheric’s grief, also relatable. Just wanting to kill for the sheer ecstasy of killing isn’t relatable at all. So she’s vivid, yes, and brilliantly voice acted… but she’s just not believable enough on a basic level to get under your skin.
@@johndeighan2495 I don't think so man. While sadism is not a basic human drive, most people, me included, like Camelia, a psychopath from pathfinder: wrath of the righteous. It's just Orin was never built up.
@@Tentacl Camelia was a psycho, but a also believable character, motivationally and behaviourally. Psychopaths are still human, after all. But Orin is too distant from the motives and behaviours we recognize within ourselves to really convince as a character. Purely as a caricature, she's fun and well-acted. But she's not a successful character like Camelia was.
Ketheric was a better villain
Hin in my Opinion its the Worst Villain in the Game
After Beating this game more then 12 times my dude.. i can tell yu one Thing..
Act 3 sux is the weaker Part of this Game witch is Kinda of a Joke Becouse the Game name is Baldurs gate but when yu Reach the City the Game fall of the Clif..haha
Orin its a Lot Better then Hin at Least but she sux a Little Bit too.
BTW i can only Tolerate the Weak ending of this Game now Becouse of the Patch 5 epilogue..
Becouse before that.. Man the only cool ending yu could Get was the Evil one..
(Becoming Absolute..)
And just a Fun Fact..
The Weak ending of this Game its nothing Normal for Larian ok..
Ever Played DO2 ?!
Give a Try the Game is Great too.. but the Ending.. Sux just like this.