My first concert: Iron Maiden Powerslave Tour in Long Beach, CA. Yes, the one where they recorded Live After Death. pretty much the only cool thing that's happened in my life, thanks for listening. That is all.
Never played it... I don't think I ever come across this before but looks interesting. DAMN YANKEES! I think I was 18, saw them in St Paul. POISON and FIREHOUSE played as well. Good memories.
After hearing friends at school talk about this game, prompted me to ask my parents for a C64 which I got that Christmas. Regarding the slowness, the C64 version was written in basic along with Nukewar. When Blitz compiler came out, Telengard was the first game that I used it on and then nukewar. I remember having to make a couple tweaks to get them compiled but for its time the games ran twice as fast.
4:20 - I know what Matt means. I run all GOG games in my own DosBox because I have the dosbox.conf file set up exactly the way I want it. I also agree with Chris's Peak of realizing I could map it. A map I am slowly filling in would make me feel like I am making SOME kind of progress even if the game itself keeps killing me and forcing me to start over.
My first concert was U2 at Camp Randall Stadium in Madison. Second was Smashing Pumpkins at SummerFest in Milwaukee. Beasty Boys would have been awesome!
I like to think I was correct and Matt just got lucky. :P But that's cool. I was playing it again the other night and will keep that in mind with the cubes.
I am somewhat obsessed with the mainframe game that Dan wrote before Telengard, called just "DND". I've been reverse engineering the source code and data from the VMS version and rewriting it in C. The project is kinda stalled, but if y'all are interested I have some videos on my youtube channel about it. It was originally written on a pdp-10, then ported to the pdp-11 with basic+/2, then VMS, then to Pascal on VMS, and then a guy at DEC ported it to DOS with Turbo Pascal, which is the "RO Softwate" version that most people know of. Unfortunately all the source code except for the VMS basic one and an exceptionally bad "/Unix port have all been lost. :( Anyway, pop by and check out my boring vids on it if you want, and nag me to continue the project if you find it interesting lol.
I will swing by, depending on how into this I get, I might check it out. Have you looked into the Plato system at all? Pedit5 might interest you as well.
Ongoing commentary as I watch, lol: DND is brutal to start too, but the maps are not randomly generated. So you can learn the layout a little and scum around the entrance for a few levels until it is safe to explore deeper.
very cool, early game. 15+ years ago i was able to get sealed copy off E-bay for $50 and it's still in my collection. Love the old-school artwork. Wanted to ask if either of you have used D-Fend with Dosbox? It's a Gui for Dosbox that allows you to setup games in a gui. I set mine with screenshots as icons. It's it super easy to run games.
23:35 Avalon Hill published the computer edition of 1830: Railroads & Robber Barons, but Simtex actually developed the game. This was after Simtex made Master of Orion 1 and Master of Magic, and shortly before they were bought out by MicroProse. If you guys are interested in looking at something else by Avalon Hill, you might consider Galaxy (1981) and/or Andromeda Conquest (1982). They are primitive entries in the space 4X genre that Master of Orion came to define. MOOlikes? :)
We'll get those on the list. I think you answered your own question on MOOlikes when you said 4x. There was already a definition/genre thanks to Civ and others. But it does raise a point for me: how "Doom clones" just became FPS's. Where was the line that changed them? Was it when we left 2d enemies? That's an interesting thing worth trying to figure out.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit MOO is usually called a "Spaceploitation" game, which is the galactic sci-fi branch of the 4X family, But you might think MOO2 was the first of its kind based on how often it has been copied, er, I mean, "updated." I don't remember "Doom clone" or "corridor shooter" being used that much in the gaming press...but maybe it was? Or was it mostly gamers who called them that? I'd guess Quake was the first FPS not called a Doom clone by anybody. And Duke Nukem 3D might have been the last major game to get tagged with the label.
No Autoduel reference this time? I'm shocked! If you're into roguelikes and similar types of games, I'd highly recommend Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead. I thought no game would beat Civ 1 in number of hours I spent on it but C:DDA did it. Also, it's totally free and is available for Linux/Mac/Windows/Android. It inspired me to work on my own roguelike/survival game which currently takes up most of my spare time.
Ah man, CDDA is one of the greatest games ever!!!! :D The community surrounding it is incredibly toxic though. I know we gotta separate the art from the artist, but it really turns me off from submitting PRs. :(
@@Lee_Adamson_OCF Knowing how much of myself I put in my art, it's become nearly impossible for me to separate the two on most things. It's really tainted a lot of my childhood memories. I've deliberately not looked up the history of some things just so I don't lose them. I might poke into C:DDA and see what it's about, and if there's something like it that might scratch the itch.
6:33 Telengard is, technically speaking, not a roguelike. Mobygames puts it in the category of "DND variants" that date back to 1975 (or earlier). It seems to be truer to the DND tabletop experience than Rogue, what with the six character attributes, etc. CRPG Addict says Rogue was better than DND because it was a more creative design and/or allowed for more creativity on the part of the player. I haven't played either game yet, so I don't know if I agree with his assessment.
In what way is it not a Roguelike? The definition I found is: Roguelike (or rogue-like) is a subgenre of role-playing computer games traditionally characterized by a dungeon crawl through procedurally generated levels, turn-based gameplay, grid-based movement, and permanent death of the player character.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit I'm sure it's just a matter of nuance for most of us. DND predates Rogue, it takes more obvious inspiration from tabletop d&d, it doesn't seem to be as random in its level generation, I don't think you have to manage player hunger, etc. etc. Wizard's Castle is another old maze RPG like DND and Rogue, and that is counted as the original in a *third* game group...
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit To clarify: It is probably ok to call DND and Telengard "Roguelike" as that term has come to be defined. But it *used* to mean "Rogue clone" or "Rogue variant". NetHack, for example. Apparently the term roguelike was expanded when Rogue Legacy came out and people started calling all sorts of games "Roguelike." Defining the "Rogue-lights" out of the subgenre resulted in *including* a lot of games that weren't previously considered Roguelikes. "Isn't it ironic? Don't ya think?"
Having had this one grow on me as I played it, I might have to go back and check that out. I never really got into the Apshai games, but think I might be more open to them now.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit Neither did I, but you would have a loooooot to talk about with them when it comes to extremely early RPG development. Especially how they make the jump from turn-based with "Temple" to real-time action with "Gateway to Apshai".
You never mentioned the mechanic that always stopped me cold in this game. High level undead. They would level drain. The actual formula for the level drain was to remove half your total xp. I would go in and edit the BASIC to make it multiply my XP by 2 instead of dividing, but then the game was stupidly easy and I got bored. I hate games that handle level drains like this. I think it was Pool of Radiance that finally did it right...if you got level drained you just had to either go pay a healer to heal level damage or you just had to go re-train at the trainer. Actually permanently losing XP just really makes me lose interest in a game quickly because it doesn't respect the player's RL time.
Yeah, draining is one of those things that definitely adds that tweak of fear for the player, but I'm still not a fan. Best case scenario from level drain is I have to regrind some lower level areas I've already been through to get my XP back. Unless your combat is above perfection, that's just not going to be fun.
I played this a lot in the 80s on my C64. Eventually, I decided to look at my save file in a sector editor and found where the stats were stored. Once I boosted everything to 99, the game got boring for me as well. I kinda wish I'd not figured out how to do that.
My first concert: Iron Maiden Powerslave Tour in Long Beach, CA. Yes, the one where they recorded Live After Death.
pretty much the only cool thing that's happened in my life, thanks for listening. That is all.
Man you started out strong. You got to work up to that otherwise other mildly cool things, or even pretty cool things will feel bland.
Never played it... I don't think I ever come across this before but looks interesting.
DAMN YANKEES! I think I was 18, saw them in St Paul. POISON and FIREHOUSE played as well. Good memories.
My favorite game on the C64!
i played this SO much as a kid, it really is pretty wild how much they packed in for how early it was!!!!! 🤩
oh, and Demon's Forge too, that's a weird one, sweet!!! 👍
After hearing friends at school talk about this game, prompted me to ask my parents for a C64 which I got that Christmas. Regarding the slowness, the C64 version was written in basic along with Nukewar. When Blitz compiler came out, Telengard was the first game that I used it on and then nukewar. I remember having to make a couple tweaks to get them compiled but for its time the games ran twice as fast.
I might have to try that sometime. It sounds like a good project.
This was one of the first games I played via Tape on my Commodore 64… It was amazing 🤩
4:20 - I know what Matt means. I run all GOG games in my own DosBox because I have the dosbox.conf file set up exactly the way I want it.
I also agree with Chris's Peak of realizing I could map it. A map I am slowly filling in would make me feel like I am making SOME kind of progress even if the game itself keeps killing me and forcing me to start over.
My first concert was U2 at Camp Randall Stadium in Madison. Second was Smashing Pumpkins at SummerFest in Milwaukee. Beasty Boys would have been awesome!
SOOOOOOOO many hours of my adolescence went to this!!! you two are awesome.
Can’t wait for your takes on Swashbuckler!
the DOS version had okay graphics, pretty impressive for the day actually...D
I looked it up after this, and kinda wish I played the DOS version. Don't tell Matt.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit If you guys were really hardcore, you'd have played the Apple II version. :P
@@PCGamer77 for some reason I didn’t think there was an Apple II version. I may have to go back and check that out.
I have never heard of this game before, it was cool learning about it!
So there are two types of grey cubes: one asks for a level number and the other type is completely random. You were both correct.
I like to think I was correct and Matt just got lucky. :P But that's cool. I was playing it again the other night and will keep that in mind with the cubes.
I am somewhat obsessed with the mainframe game that Dan wrote before Telengard, called just "DND". I've been reverse engineering the source code and data from the VMS version and rewriting it in C. The project is kinda stalled, but if y'all are interested I have some videos on my youtube channel about it.
It was originally written on a pdp-10, then ported to the pdp-11 with basic+/2, then VMS, then to Pascal on VMS, and then a guy at DEC ported it to DOS with Turbo Pascal, which is the "RO Softwate" version that most people know of.
Unfortunately all the source code except for the VMS basic one and an exceptionally bad "/Unix port have all been lost. :(
Anyway, pop by and check out my boring vids on it if you want, and nag me to continue the project if you find it interesting lol.
PS Yeah FreeDOS is pretty great if ya want a "real" DOS machine. :D
I will swing by, depending on how into this I get, I might check it out. Have you looked into the Plato system at all? Pedit5 might interest you as well.
@@Lee_Adamson_OCF Once I finish moving some rooms around in my house, I have to set up a little corner to try it out.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit I keep meaning to fool around on Plato, but I never seem to get around to it! :O
Ongoing commentary as I watch, lol: DND is brutal to start too, but the maps are not randomly generated. So you can learn the layout a little and scum around the entrance for a few levels until it is safe to explore deeper.
The source code for Telengard is out there. Oldskool MSBASIC. It's surprisingly short, too.
Well that's interesting. I thought the telengard maps were totally random. They must be procedural with a fixed seed. Neato.
very cool, early game. 15+ years ago i was able to get sealed copy off E-bay for $50 and it's still in my collection. Love the old-school artwork. Wanted to ask if either of you have used D-Fend with Dosbox? It's a Gui for Dosbox that allows you to setup games in a gui. I set mine with screenshots as icons. It's it super easy to run games.
I got my copy the same way. The box is big and beautiful, love it. I haven't tried D-Fend, but going to look into it.
23:35 Avalon Hill published the computer edition of 1830: Railroads & Robber Barons, but Simtex actually developed the game. This was after Simtex made Master of Orion 1 and Master of Magic, and shortly before they were bought out by MicroProse.
If you guys are interested in looking at something else by Avalon Hill, you might consider Galaxy (1981) and/or Andromeda Conquest (1982). They are primitive entries in the space 4X genre that Master of Orion came to define. MOOlikes? :)
We'll get those on the list.
I think you answered your own question on MOOlikes when you said 4x. There was already a definition/genre thanks to Civ and others.
But it does raise a point for me: how "Doom clones" just became FPS's. Where was the line that changed them? Was it when we left 2d enemies? That's an interesting thing worth trying to figure out.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit MOO is usually called a "Spaceploitation" game, which is the galactic sci-fi branch of the 4X family, But you might think MOO2 was the first of its kind based on how often it has been copied, er, I mean, "updated."
I don't remember "Doom clone" or "corridor shooter" being used that much in the gaming press...but maybe it was? Or was it mostly gamers who called them that?
I'd guess Quake was the first FPS not called a Doom clone by anybody. And Duke Nukem 3D might have been the last major game to get tagged with the label.
No Autoduel reference this time? I'm shocked! If you're into roguelikes and similar types of games, I'd highly recommend Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead. I thought no game would beat Civ 1 in number of hours I spent on it but C:DDA did it. Also, it's totally free and is available for Linux/Mac/Windows/Android. It inspired me to work on my own roguelike/survival game which currently takes up most of my spare time.
Ah man, CDDA is one of the greatest games ever!!!! :D The community surrounding it is incredibly toxic though. I know we gotta separate the art from the artist, but it really turns me off from submitting PRs. :(
@@Lee_Adamson_OCF Oh, that's too bad. I didn't know about this. Then I guess I should be glad I have my own game to work on.
@@Christians_Retro_Gaming I may just be being a fuddy duddy too. Don't let me bias you against them. :P
@@Lee_Adamson_OCF Knowing how much of myself I put in my art, it's become nearly impossible for me to separate the two on most things. It's really tainted a lot of my childhood memories. I've deliberately not looked up the history of some things just so I don't lose them. I might poke into C:DDA and see what it's about, and if there's something like it that might scratch the itch.
Wish you guys included the sound effects.
6:33 Telengard is, technically speaking, not a roguelike. Mobygames puts it in the category of "DND variants" that date back to 1975 (or earlier). It seems to be truer to the DND tabletop experience than Rogue, what with the six character attributes, etc.
CRPG Addict says Rogue was better than DND because it was a more creative design and/or allowed for more creativity on the part of the player. I haven't played either game yet, so I don't know if I agree with his assessment.
In what way is it not a Roguelike? The definition I found is: Roguelike (or rogue-like) is a subgenre of role-playing computer games traditionally characterized by a dungeon crawl through procedurally generated levels, turn-based gameplay, grid-based movement, and permanent death of the player character.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit I'm sure it's just a matter of nuance for most of us. DND predates Rogue, it takes more obvious inspiration from tabletop d&d, it doesn't seem to be as random in its level generation, I don't think you have to manage player hunger, etc. etc.
Wizard's Castle is another old maze RPG like DND and Rogue, and that is counted as the original in a *third* game group...
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit To clarify: It is probably ok to call DND and Telengard "Roguelike" as that term has come to be defined. But it *used* to mean "Rogue clone" or "Rogue variant". NetHack, for example.
Apparently the term roguelike was expanded when Rogue Legacy came out and people started calling all sorts of games "Roguelike." Defining the "Rogue-lights" out of the subgenre resulted in *including* a lot of games that weren't previously considered Roguelikes.
"Isn't it ironic? Don't ya think?"
Unrelated, but: have y'all ever seen Gateway to Apshai? The graphics are kind of like a less shitty version of this.
Having had this one grow on me as I played it, I might have to go back and check that out. I never really got into the Apshai games, but think I might be more open to them now.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit Neither did I, but you would have a loooooot to talk about with them when it comes to extremely early RPG development. Especially how they make the jump from turn-based with "Temple" to real-time action with "Gateway to Apshai".
@@ShiceSquad I also want to do more with Gemstone Warrior from SSI which seems to follow this vibe of game.
@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit Holy hell, I've never heard of that one! But it looks like it would have been up my alley back in the day.
It had a creepy dark sound to it especially when there was a monster encounter.
You never mentioned the mechanic that always stopped me cold in this game. High level undead. They would level drain. The actual formula for the level drain was to remove half your total xp. I would go in and edit the BASIC to make it multiply my XP by 2 instead of dividing, but then the game was stupidly easy and I got bored.
I hate games that handle level drains like this. I think it was Pool of Radiance that finally did it right...if you got level drained you just had to either go pay a healer to heal level damage or you just had to go re-train at the trainer. Actually permanently losing XP just really makes me lose interest in a game quickly because it doesn't respect the player's RL time.
Yeah, draining is one of those things that definitely adds that tweak of fear for the player, but I'm still not a fan. Best case scenario from level drain is I have to regrind some lower level areas I've already been through to get my XP back. Unless your combat is above perfection, that's just not going to be fun.
I played this a lot in the 80s on my C64. Eventually, I decided to look at my save file in a sector editor and found where the stats were stored. Once I boosted everything to 99, the game got boring for me as well. I kinda wish I'd not figured out how to do that.