Arcane Archer is one of the worst serious archer builds in the game, which is really ironic. As mentioned you can do a BM, EK, I played a Samurai /w sharpshooter, and it was insanely good.
Doesn't it feel a bit like waste? Lvl 3 feature is almost the same and needing to go to high levels on equal split doesn't sound the best. I reckon both of the options with sentinel /polearm master are better on their own as in multiclass? Or do you see something I don't?
Multiclassing any “warrior” class before level 5 means you don’t get extra attack until you reach level 5 in one of the classes. IMO, It’s a huge let down to not get extra attack as soon as possible.
Dwarven Battlemaster/Divination wizard. "The runes foretold you would be losin' that fancy sword laddie" Attacks, uses Disarming attack, uses a portent with a lower number to automatically cause the target fail their saving throw. Sheath your blade and take theirs.
Sheath your blade, wait until the next round to take their as you've already used your object interaction and aw fuck they just picked it back up. RAW, babyyyy
@@jhinpotion9230 Use Object 1st turn to pick up their weapon, sheathe your other weapon at the start of your 2nd turn. As long as you don't have a shield or an off-hand weapon you can pull it off.
I've seen champion fighters do so much damage per round. Like when a duel weilder action surged with a Wolf totem barbarian nearby. Four of the five attacks were critical hits. Then all three of his attacks were crits on the next round. That adult black drago didn't stand a chance.
Yeah, but that's rolling 18-20 seven times in two rounds. It's legendary when it happens, but it doesn't always happen. If Crits came from rolling 10+ the targets AC, you wouldn't need to roll 18, you could feasibly Crit every time against certain types of foes.
re: new player credit: I DM'd a game for a bachelor party recently and they asked me to make up a stack of level 5 characters they could use because 4 of the 6 folks playing had never played before and they just wanted to jump in. The rockstar of the night was the guy playing Clu, the Changeling Inquisitive Rogue. He immediately got the concept, used all of his abilities whenever he could, and while he needed some help with the rolling bits he absolutely crushed it. The group as a whole had an absolute blast and by the end of the 5 hour session everyone was flexing their TTRPG muscles pretty hard for a group that was largely new to D&D and TTRPG's as a whole.
I recently ran a game for a bachelor party as well! However we had 10 players, played twice that weekend, love it when new people really get the hang of it!
Reminds me of a character I ran who was a Changeling named Kru (pronounced Crew) who was a Bladepact Hexblade Warlock, and everytime he changed his weapon, he'd change his face and used a different name for each face.
@Aaron Snyder the first time I played dnd was with an inquisitive rogue, and this story remind me...well of me 😅 Just for FYI I played a black Dragonborn inquisitive rogue.
What's really annoying is how the Arcane Archer really can't use their special arrows all that often. Most of the time, they're just Archers that sometimes do magic. It's sad.
@@goldengaruda8935 And that's awesome. But that just means like 90% of the time the 7th Level Fighter using Arcane Archer is just a archer that hits a little more often. The core of their class just doesn't get enough uses.
We have a houserule in my games that whenever you get a new shot option, you get a new shot use. I’ll also be working on new shots to use, which is another thing that hinders the Arcane Archer. Hopefully TCoE adds more arcane shots in addition to the new Maneuvers
I’m in a campaign right now where I’m playing as a cavalier and my buddies a moon Druid. I’m telling you right now nothing’s more fun then riding on top of a giant toad smiting foes lol
We have a Battle Master in one of our groups. One of my favorite moments from her was an evening when the dice just weren't in her favor and she said, "Fuck it. I'm rolling for shit," and used her Commander's Strike each turn the rest of the combat.
I’ve always liked the idea of pairing a rogue and battle master fighter. Have the rogue delay their turn until after the fighter and allow the fighter to get into close combat and use commander’s strike and let the rogue sneak attack, then the rogue’s turn comes and their sneak attack then resets on their turn I believe, essentially allowing two sneak attacks per round. I think it is allowed due to the wording of sneak attack being once per turn and not once per round, but I could be wrong.
@@lucania101710 cool, I just didn’t know if the rogue would need to wait for their turn for their sneak attack to “reset” after using it outside their turn, kinda like a reaction ya know? But that makes it even better. Just make a squad of rogues and battle masters lol
@@WexMajor82 well you can do anything you want in 5e, tons of people use sprinklings of older editions. I’ve recently started watching Dimension 20 and Brennan let’s them delay turns all the time. Besides, it just makes sense to be able to do, “I would like to wait until I see my allies plans” or “my ally has a plan and I want to wait until after them so as not to ruin it or interfere”. Realistically you wouldn’t waste your turn dodging or hiding or something
Two ways you can easily fix the Arcane Archer: A) Whenever you learn a new Arcane Shot option, you gain another use of your arcane shot. B) You can use Arcane Shots a number of times per short or Long rest equal to your proficiency bonus.
After looking at everything that it includes and looking at other ones in the same genre, I think I'm going to have to give this video an S-tier rating.
Yeah I don't get why Monty kept going on about Crossbow Expert making a better archer. Crossbows aren't the typical thing you would think of with an archer, and the Crossbow Expert feat only gives one very niche benefit to an Arcane Archer (that being the 5 ft. disadvantage alleviation).
@@lt.branwulfram4794 IIRC, hand crossbow is more damage overall than heavy with your peak 5 shots per turn, taking sharpshooter and crossbow expert, and leaning into dex for a few levels. Heavy would be better if you need that bonus action for something else, too, though
@@duffman2625 They are not supposed to be judging flavor. I get that bows are cool, but that should not affect the ranking. I agree with Monty and disagree with Kelly here. The exclusion of crossbows is bad from an optimization point of view, and from a flavor point of view because not every one prefers bows.
I love these videos and it'd be great if, when you're done with them, you went back and gave your own favorite house rule tweaks for C Tier and lower subclasses that would raise them up a bit.
Champion seems designed specifically for "that guy" who never remembers his abilities. It's super easy for everyone else at the table to keep track of the abilities and remind him to use them. He's only at the table because D&D is what the group is doing and plays like an NPC+
@@alexpietsch7997 my wife sits on her phone all the time when we play (even though she seems to get excited when she makes up a character for said game.
I have a friend who loved the champion because he forgets his abilities a lot and it was a lot easier for him. He's great role-play wise all his own so doesn't need a subclass to bolster it so champion worked well for him.
BattleMaster is so good that it got its own feat AND fighting style. It’s sad that superiority dice weren’t included just as a fighter feature like it was originally intended.
I feel like champion fighters get a terrible rap. They get unique passive abilities and they can be game changing and useful. The passive healing can get you out of a fight alive and take on ordeals that even Barbarians could only dream of. Additionally the criticals increase the overall damage output of the fighter. It seems bland at first but every critical hit is still a cheering moment at the table. The critcal hit chance increase is just as amazing as battle master maneuvers IMO. Champion fighters are my favorite. I would still rank them A-tier because they pale in comparison to battlemaster but it is still amazing.
totally agree. especially for the games that i am playing. we get mostly heavy battles a lot. with castle defence or raids that more than one sessions. when everyone else runs out of things to do i still have my fu hits
The ability to crit on a 19 is mathematically week (only 5% damageboost) . None of the fighting styles stack well. The only strong ability, generating hp, comes on to late.
But at 15 its 3x as many critics, while the BM is choosing from the same maneuvers they already passed over at levels 3,7, and 10. Your maneuvers die upgrades from an average of 4.5 to s 6.5 over the course of your entire career, which isn't great. I feel like BM is a sprinter, coming hard and fast out of the gates. The champion is the marathon runner that gets stronger the longer you go. In a low level campaign (which is most to be fair) the BM is way stronger. But the higher level you go, the more champions and their resourceless playstyle starts to shine.
Imagine combining that expanded crit range with a Half-Orc savage attack and feats. I don't think it meets the A rank criteria that the Dudes have (and it is pretty boring to just "faceroll"), but it is a solid B.
I was highly disappointed in the Arcane Archer almost completely... they should have just created maneuvers for the Battle Master that were designed specifically for bows and being an archer, like split shot, pinning shot, etc similar to some of the older shots from previous editions. As is, I would give the Arcane Archer a D ranking at best. The Battle Master makes a better archer because as you said, they can use a bow with many of their maneuvers as is. It takes a little more narrative work to roleplay the Champions archetype abilities, BUT it is possible, and just because it doesn't require a lot of tactical thought doesn't detract from the fact that it is effective. You could focus your roleplay the characters background instead though. When paired with another player that can create a situation where you get advantage on your attacks, the damage you can deal from SOOOO many possible crits is impressive. I give the Champion a solid A especially when you include how easy it is for a new player. Although for experienced players, it is bland.
If you want to try something cool, make an Arcane Archer High elf with Elven ccuracy and Sharp Shooter, then use the blinding arrow and have fun at level 12 having more chances than a Champion to crit while adding a plus 15 modifier to the damages of your 5 arrows after the first blinded the target
UA 2019 ADDED SNIPE!!! Air Genasi BattleMaster with a bow, loving the fighting style as you can still get up close with two weapons and riposte.and Snipe from UA 2029 is phenomenal.
I feel like you can't include RP potential for the reasons Kelly and Monte don't: it's entirely too subjective. Any character can be well RP'd, but at the end of the day the mechanics of some classes/subclasses are just objectively better than others. As far as flavoring goes though, I recently put together a Goliath Battle Master with the Grappler feat. She's a Battlefest (ala TAZ) champion and I reflavored her maneuvers to be her signature wrestling moves
The Champion fight is IMO a great multiclass option. It's increased crit chance integrate easily into any other combat focused build. My favorite character was a totem warrior barbarian/champion fighter. You instantly become an absolute unit that never goes down who deals an insane amount of damage due to the doubled crit chance.
It's pretty awful to play vanilla (assuming no feats too), but as part of a toolkit I appreciate it's existence. It's a solid multiclass dip without tacking on any extra mechanics to keep track of and where it really shines is for DMs wanting to slap some class levels on their monsters without causing themselves a massive headache. Alternatively, if you're like me and don't like GMing allied NPCs in combat, your players aren't going to be so overwhelmed if you toss one of them a Champion Fighter character to manage. Switching to Pathfinder has given me a lot of perspective on running complicated NPCs and while statting them out I often find myself thinking "what features can I pick that will give me the least number of things to keep track of". Reality of the situation is that a player will learn a character slowly and stick with it for a long time (in general), as a GM you've got maybe an hour to remember what's on that character sheet and the 5 stat blocks next to it so you can run it competently in combat - basic/passive-heavy builds make this so much easier.
battlemaster is one of the few top tier subclasses that doesnt feel opressive because its so good mainly due to its versatility and how many ways you can flavor it. i'm running a martial artist battlemaster who dual wields escrima sticks and it just captures the idea of a martial character so incredibly well that its almost he only full martial i ever play and i never get bored of it
Edit: Mike Mearls claimed crossbows are allowed but Jeremy Crawford later corrected him stating they are in fact excluded _____________________ Original post below _____________________ In Sage Advice, Jeremy Crawford admitted that the exclusion of crossbows for the arcane archer was just an oversight and not intentional. Personally I would allow my players to use crossbows on their arcane archer (in fact, 1 asked me just yesterday)
I like the idea of a crossbow wielding Arcane archer angering bow wielding ones, believing they “sullied” the ancient technique with this newfangled tech.
I agree, they need a crossbow. But still, they should have just be able to select more arcane abilities and case them more often. It is like a worse example of metamagic.
funnily in some cases i reflavor some weapons to be a different kind, so a crossbow made by a good craftsman? it can be a powerful compound bow, but it have all the limitations (the loading is because the weapon is really bulky to use normally, so you have a limit to your shots)
I admit I have a soft spot for the Champion, because I love it really embodying that picture of a character that came from nothing with nothing but still becomes a hero. I *like* that it doesn't get big, fancy abilities, because that's part of the fun for me. It allows me to play that unseeming, unlikely hero that's so very popular in folk lore and pop culture. Just a random nobody who somehow gets roped into saving the world. Now, I get that you guys don't consider flavor and roleplaying potential, which I agree with. Any subclass can be roleplayed in amazing ways. However, I do think that a lot of the people that rated underestimate the power of an increased crit chance. One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a 3 barbarian/6 champion half-orc. I only played him in a one-shot and in that one-shot I managed to deal *200* damage in one turn, using Orcish Fury, Reckless Attack, Action Surge, and Great Weapon Master. By itself, the increased crit chance isn't that great, I do agree. But subclasses don't exist in a vacuum. As long as you have someone in your party that can give you reliable advantage on attack rolls (such as a druid with Faerie Fire) or multiclassed into a different class that can give you reliable advantage on attack rolls (such as barbarian or warlock through Devil's Sight + Darkness), champion goddamn *decimates* in terms of damage. Granted, it does usually take until around level 8 or 9 to really take off as it's either multiclass and/or feat dependent. That said, it's nowhere as good as the likes of Battle Master, Eldritch Knight or even Samurai. Still a really solid A-Tier, especially if you're like me and appreciate simplicity. I've never needed special, game-changing abilities to have fun in D&D, I've always appreciated the archetypal subclasses that really embody the essence of the class (such as Circle of the Land, Champion, Open Hand, Oath of Devotion), even if others tend to find them boring or lacklustre.
While I agree with your point that simplicity is beauty, I disagree with the statement that a lot of people underestimate the power of an increased crit chance. Most humans are bad at grasping probability, so I think more often criticals are overrated because we only remember the rare times it happens. But if you crunch the numbers, the increased crit range isn't doing a lot. Here's some quick maths: Against an appropriately challenging enemy relative to your current level, the chance of hitting an enemy is around 50-50, which means on a roll of 1-10 it misses, 11-20 it hits. Let's say you're swinging a Greatsword once which deals 7 damage on average, if you calculate the average of 1-10 missing (0 damage), 11-19 hit (7 damage), 20 crit (14 damage), the average is 3.85. If crits weren't a thing, the average is 3.5, so the crit on 20 is only adding 0.35 damage. If you increase crit range to 19-20, the average damage is 4.2 which is also 3.85 + 0.35. So every additional crit range only adds 0.35, meaning an 18-20 crit would be 4.55 damage. To show how bad an extra crit range really is, compare what happens if instead of gaining an additional crit range you instead gain +1 damage, so you're doing 8 on a hit instead of 7. If you only crit at 20, your average damage would be 4.4 which is 0.2 higher than what you get with an additional crit range (4.2). Mathematically, the increased crit range is only adding less than 1 point of base damage to your attacks. And that's just theoretically, like you said subclasses don't exist in a vacuum, and crits don't either. In practice, criticals would actually be doing less damage than they actually would because of how unreliable they are. Why? Because crits don't always matter, if you crit on an enemy that would've died even if you didn't crit then the crit was useless. In practice the actual damage calculation doesn't really matter, what matters more is how many hits it takes to take down an enemy. Here's a nitpick scenario: you're the Greatsword fighter above fighting a 15 HP enemy, If you deal 7 damage per hit, you'd kill it in 3 hits. If you crit once, you can kill in 2 hits. If you crit twice, you also kill in 2 hits. If you get the increased crit range, you still can only kill it in 2 turns, just the chance is much higher. If instead of getting increased crit range you got the +1 damage instead, you'd do 8 damage instead of 7, you always kill in 2 hits. Again the scenario I made up was nitpicked to illustrate a point, but even in practice, a consistent damage bonus is better than an unreliable crit range increase. Reliability = more damage, this also applies in other scenarios like Eldritch Blast (without invocations) vs Firebolt. At level 5 mathematically they deal the same amount of damage, 2d10 which is 11 damage on average, but in practice the 2 x 1d10 Eldritch Blast is better than the 2d10 FIrebolt. Now imagine Eldritch Blast shot only 1 blast that deals 2d6 damage, but if you roll a 20 you shoot another blast, that's basically what a Greatsword crit is. A crit is basically you sometimes get an additional weapon hit, which you can't control. Crits feel great but a more reliable damage source is more bland but also reliable. If you take any Champion Fighter that deals massive damage, and replace it with a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight that picked appropriate maneuvers or spells, and got the same buffs/conditions that the Champion Fighter also got, they would be more effective at dealing damage than the Champion Fighter. So while yes, a Champion Fighter can decimate in terms of damage, it's neither a specialty nor are they the best at it, which is sad because that's all they can do. Other subclasses can deal more damage but are also more flexible.
@@banan9377 Oh yeah, I would absolutely never, ever claim that Champion deals more damage than a Battle Master. Eldritch Knight... maybe, at least until they get Haste. But even then, Champion's damage does not make up for the added tankiness and utility that Eldritch Knight's spellcasting offers. Those two are the top notch Fighter subclasses to me, then there's a bit of a drop and then comes Samurai. Then another drop and then comes Champion imo. And while your calculations make a lot of sense, they do leave some things out, such as Great Weapon Master. Champion has double the chance to trigger the bonus action attack on crits. They also don't consider advantage, which makes an added 5% crit chance far more valuable, or abilities like Savage Attacks which makes crits deal more damage. But I don't expect you to consider all of these things, haha. Perhaps I'm just delusioned by my love for crits.
@@Adoribull1312 while there are some cases where the crit is a good feature, I think in a lot of cases there are still better options. For example, take the level 15 feature where you crit on an 18-20. If you have advantage as the Greatsword Fighter, you'd do 7.1925 damage on average, which looks impressive, but if you compare that to using a level 1 spell Hex or Hunter's Mark (only critting on a 20) which you can do by multiclassing or a feat, with advantage you'd do 8.89875 damage. A level 1 spell gives more damage than a level 15 feature. Depending on your build you can always work out the math to determine whether or not a crit is worth it. However, with a 3 level investment to get a 19-20 range and a 15 level to get 18-20, the crit range would be one of the last things I'd look at if I want to optimize damage. The thing with crits is that it's a multiplicative effect rather than additive effect, the higher your base damage is, the more the crit damage increases, however at level 3 your damage is too low that the crit doesn't add much, which is why a static additive bonus like +1 damage does more at that point, while at level 15 where you can take advantage of better attacks with the increased crit range, there are also other features at that level that would be more Although, even if crits would do more damage there's still a problem with reliability. If you crit on easy battles but don't on the boss battles, that would be pretty bad. I like the reliability of other subclasses like Battle Master or Eldritch Knight because you have more control on your damage output depending on how important the battle is, by allocating how much resources you use per battle. So yeah I agree with you, those 2 subclasses are definitely the best overall. I kinda wish the Champion features had a more Barbarian-like effects, the Champion is supposedly the most buff Fighter and yet the Eldritch Knight has a lot more defense while the Battle Master has a lot more offense, and the Champion isn't even better at the other two's secondary stats
I don't want to go too hard and defend it because from my understanding it doesn't give much. However the arguments used against it here are because it's "boring" and seems to have very little to do with its mechanical effectiveness.
You could easily role play that same thing with battlemaster. Just intentionally choose simpler superiority die and abilities and gradually get more complicated ones at higher levels to show growth. Things like rally, parry, goading attack, or lunging attack to start off as examples
I love the tier list series guys, keep em coming :) Can't wait to see what you and the community think. I tend to gravitate towards the Echo Knight and Eldritch Knight. I personally give both those subclasses an S. The Rune Knight will give them a run for their money if it has not been nerfed over zealously. As always thank you for creating this great content every week Kelly and Monty!
@@alexanderthompson7164 Thanks for the well thought out reply. I agree the EK van vary quite a bit. Consistency wise I can see it definitely ranking lower. In terms of potential ceiling quite high.
Honestly, I feel like the Battlemaster's maneuvers feature is so good, it really ought to be part of the baseline Fighter kit. It seems strange to me that none of the other fighter classes get something quite like it. Though I guess the rest of the sub-classes would have to be re-balanced from the ground up if they did that...
Considering what the Class Variant Feature UA did with the Fighter class, I imagine WoTC agrees with the belief that maneuvers should be part of the base kit in some fashion. I don't think the balance would be off if it got 2 maneuvers/1 Die or 2 Dice/1 Maneuver though.
@@lukeporter5028 Comparing the Battle Master to a wizard in terms of resource management isn't really fair or even accurate. The management is negligible at best compared to even a Warlock with its limited Pact Slots. That aside, what is wrong with a Fighter subclass that has options beyond just hitting things? The class with arguably the most versatility in terms of concept/build potential should be allowed to expand on that.
I’m playing my first fighter in a campaign. At session zero I told the DM I want to play a fighter but I was struggling with a subclass. My DM recommended a Battle Master fighter because he played one once. We’re currently at level 5 and I live to hear the words “roll for initiative”. Battle Master truly lives up to the hype.
What I love with Cavalier is that, instead of getting a new indepentedt feature every now and then, the Cavalier's features enhance every single feature it has given you previously. When you get your level 10 feature it enhances your level 3 feature as you can mark an enemy with your opportunity attack, in addition you stop them in their tracks so you are almost guaranteed to make an attack on them your next turn. Your level 15 feature lets you now make them prone with advantage (assuming you used the marked attack), then unleash your other attacks while they are down. Your level 18 feature lets you use your level 10 feature as many times as you want. In addition there is no limit to the number of creatures you can have marked at a time, only the duration of the mark.
@@Soupdude338 It does recuire a lot of positioning, IMO that is what makes this subclass so very unique from every other class in D&D. You have to look at the map much more tactically and strategise where the choke points are, and where you should be standing in order to delay the boss, mitigate damage from your wizards and rogues, maximise the damage from a fireball without getting hurt, and so much more. I love it.
They are solid and not to be underestimated, nice and consistent, lots of options and can be tough as nails and deliver some solid hits, it really can just come down to building them just about however you want and it can work.
As good as the Battle Master is, I don’t think it overshadows the other (good) subclass options as much as, for example, the Circle of the Moon Druid does.
I can't wait for you to do this series for monk. It's my favorite martial class in 5e and the subclasses are so varied and interesting. Keep up the great work guys! P.S. I have been playing a champion fighter for a while that is 17th level now and I love playing him. I like to volunteer to pick locks because I'm a "remarkable athlete" and every time I do the dm facepalms.
So much hate for the Champion. Maybe it's the Grognard in me but I can't think of better features than double the fighting styles and triple the crits. I do agree that new players should steer clear. New players should play Circle of the Moon Druids, College of Valor Bards, and Oath of Vengeance Paladins so they can feel super useful and sample a variety of mechanics.
I would like to see the Arcane Archer retooled a bit to get more uses of Arcane Shot and/or reworked into a generalist "Arcane Fighter", able to use magical effects on melee weapons and crossbows, too. That would be amazing.
I can’t figure out why you two love crossbows so much. They’re slower, heavier, and shorter ranged. In order to compete with the bows in terms of speed you need a dedicated feat.
It's because the same feat that you're alluding to (Crossbow Expert) allows the character to weaponize their bonus action, giving them an extra shot per turn compared to a bow user. So... I get it from a "min-max" sort of perspective. That said, from a *roleplaying* perspective, using a crossbow is just about the lamest thing that I can imagine. If I'm going for a ranged build, I want a bow.
@@xaviervega468 I feel like you’re looking at them the wrong way. The intention of feet’s like crossbow except is to give character who pick a weaker weapons a boost. It just so happens a weaponized bonus action is crazy strong. The hand cross bow is just worse than the bow in every way without crossbow except.
@@xaviervega468 I don't know about "loathe", but it is frustrating when a feat for a weapon subset offers enough mechanical advantage that when it comes to raw numbers everyone is like "you need to take this feat". Mostly because then in videos like this subclasses that don't cater to that feat get penalized for having a slightly lower max damage potential.
I like making some of my enemy npcs from scratch using character creation and the champion fighter is a great quick-to-build style to give your players a still-threatening enemy or set of enemies.
In defense of the champion fighter, critting twice as often is very powerful! Even though normally you only crit 5% they do make up a decent portion of your average damage output, and doubling that is pretty major especially when you are rolling more dice with a greatsword, or maul. Combine that with getting advantage, maybe a familiar with mage initiate, or reckless attack, or an ally's abilities and you'll be critting 20% of the time on that hit. It also makes for great combos with rogue's sneak attack, paladin smites, brutal critical, or anything else that does bonus damage on hit with extra dice. It's super bland and I'd never play one in a campaign, but that also makes it really easy if I want an npc who is powerful, but easy to manage. The bonus to abilities you're not proficient in is also nice for the initiative boost too which is very rarely boosted at all. Purely mechanically I'd say it's A. Just please don't make me play it! lol.
@@andyduke6119 yeah I'd agree it's a good multiclass with rogue, barbarian, paladin or even a bladesinger wizard. Or good for the casual gamer who is slowly learning or very new.
@@tadious9415 Or for a floater character, when there are more characters in the party than players at the table. There are no expendable resources to cause arguments between the other players, it's just a point-and-click melee combatant.
I played a Champion fighter the first time I played DnD, and I think it helped a lot. I was very shy, so having such a simple character helped me get more comfortable with the rest of the game. I could roleplay without worrying that I would mess something up and look like an idiot.
Haven't watched it yet but my favorite current character is an arcane archer and it should be a C class, even though I'm enjoying it now that I understand the mechanics of 5e more I can easily make a way better arcane archer
What I hate about Cavalier is that he basically has no connection to horses. Like, dude, if I don't want to be mounted, I'm gonna be the Battle Master!
The hard part with fighter I feel is that there are less sub-class build-arounds and more feat build arounds. You're frequently less interested in the fighter subclass abilities, and more in the base class itself which gets you more feat opportunities, and more attacks to capitalize on them with. If you ignore feats, I'm not sure any of the fighter subclasses are compelling on their own beyond the Battle Master or Eldritch Knight, to encourage you to stick to fighter, as opposed to doing a 2-level dip, or just playing another class entirely.
I feel like your assessment of Champion was spot on. It makes the new player feel strong but by the time you access the stronger features you are experienced enough to see how dull it is. Highlighting how much better the other sub-classes perform.
About Champion critical damage, I can give you those number to see how terrible Critical range increase is with Warrior alone. Spoilers: it's approximalty an 10% damage increase with 18-20 critical range. To get the best damage out of that, you should be an Half-Orc so you get an extra weapon damage dice when you crits. Maul and Greataxe are the best with the 1d12 that became 2d12 extra when you crits with an Half-Orc. 2d12 roll 13 on average and will be use for the extra damage you gain when you crits. 20 without advantage => 5% critical chances, (0.05 x 13 = 0.65), you get 0.65 extra average damage per attack. 20 with advantage => 9.75% critical chances, (0.0975 x 13 = 1.3), you get 1.3 extra average damage per attack. 19-20 without advantage => 10% critical chances, (0.1 x 13 = 1.3), you get 1.3 extra average damage per attack. 19-20 with advantage => 19% critical chances, (0.19 x 13 = 1.3), you get 2.47 extra average damage per attack. 18-20 without advantage => 15% critical chances, (0.15 x 13 = 1.95), you get 1.95 extra average damage per attack. 18-20 with advantage => 27.75% critical chances, (0.2775 x 13 = 3.6), you get 3.6 extra average damage per attack. Without any source of Extra damage dice and with the best scenario (Half-Orc with Greataxe) increasing the critical range increase your average damage per hit by barely 1 damage per hit for each step of critical range you get. Let add more number to see how effective it can be. A Champion Warrior with Greataxe, Great Weapon Master and 20 strength will does 1d12+15 per hit. This is on average 21.5 damage per hit (15+6.5=21.5). With only 20 critical and advantage, you average damage per hit get to 22.8 (21.5+1.3=22.8). In best scenario, 18-20 critical with advantage deal on average 25.1 damage per hit (21.5+3.6=25.1). This is 10% increase damage on average. Just for FYI, if your DM is nice enough to give you a Flametongue Greatsword as a champion, now we are starting to get some nice number. 2d6 (Greatsword) + 2d6 (Flametongue) + 1d6 (Half-Orc) = 5d6 extra damage on critical = 17.5 damages on average. When you multiple that by your Critical chances with 18-20 range and advantage you get (0.2775 x 17.5 = 4.86) 4.86 average damage per swing. Keep in mind that even with 20 critical and advantage you still get (0.0975 x 17.5 = 1.7) 1.7 average damage per swing. So it's a 3 average damage increase by swing. Edit: Add the base damage with 20 crits.
You are the min-maxer that most people can't stand. I truly hope you understand that. That being what it is the Champion is easily an A-tier if only for it's Fighter 3 Multiclass Dip. In fact, it opens up some of the most incredible combinations for damage potential, especially with any class that has on demand damage. Fighter 3 / Paladin X is still going to be one of the most brutal things to get hit with when it lands. Pair it with a Grave Cleric for extra fun. Speaking of fun, there is legitimately nothing more fun that one-rounding a boss. But yeah, go ahead and stick to the spreadsheet to calculate DP/Swing.
@@JenosIdallian Because I like math and statistics, people didn't like me. Damn, what a world we live in... I could have say that increasing the critical range increase your damage potential just like Dueling Fighting style does, but nobody would have trust me without the math so... Yeah, with sneak attack or divine smite critical range can be good. But their Tier list wasn't base on that. It base on how it impact the main class and IMO it's just plain bad for a fighter. The only good ability it get is survivor at lvl 18th... Sure if you are lucky or cheat with dices, champion would be good but that's not how you evaluate something that have statistic involve. You need to take into consideration the odds and not just your feeling or experiences. That's why average damage per swing or DPR are the best metric for this evaluation. Otherwise you cannot compare it equally with the others options. Yes there is something more fun, getting the boss kill without needing to swing at him because you masterbrain... Sure, I will stick to my mathematic and statistics because anyway 50% of DnD is base on that and if you want to create balanced contents, you need to understand how it work...
@@Nyarlathoteps1 I don't think you understand. Most of the time it's not what you say, it's how it's said that conveys a message. Your message reads like you have a superiority complex on why everything about the class is bad. In fact, it's the same as someone shoehorning seven syllable words into their sentences to try and make everyone else around them feel stupid. I've been a DM for 20 years. I don't need to know the DPR/DPS/DP-anything to create a balanced encounter, because that's going to largely vary based on the players in your group. If you have a bunch of cunts minmaxing, playing as much to the kick-in-the-door style as they possibly can, that's going to require a far different set of balancing standards than for a group that would rather roleplay a class they like, rather than one at peak efficiency. I understand this is probably a crazy concept for you, but not everyone needs to overcompensate to have fun. Lastly, one of the things people addicted to spreadsheets never take into account are two of the most important things in the game. Environmental factors, and team synergy. Literally anyone with the most basic and rudimentary understanding of math and statistics can put together a spreadsheet based on available feats and data, and come out with something that has the highest damage over a given day. Not everyone can relax and have fun with a game that's supposed to tap your imagination.
@@JenosIdallian I completly understand you but you think that I'm something that I'm not. You think I'm a Min/Maxer that only think about DPR and how effective my character could be in a given situation when I'm not. That's why I state that DnD is only 50% Math and Stats because the rest is a mix of Roleplay, group synergie, etc... I'm sorry if you think that I'm a selfish narcissist, it might be because english was my second language or just the way I write. But my point is just showing with Math and Statistic why this abilities is bad in my opinion. We are here in a situation where we need to evaluate how effective an specialisation's ability is because it's the objective of this Tier Rankings video. If this Tier list would have been about how interested this class is to Roleplay that would have been an other story, but it's not. Sadly this specialisation have NOTHING about others and it add nothing interesting Roleplay wise. All the ability you gain with Champion is about yourself in combat and the athlete bonus (Improved/Superior Critical, Remarkable Athlete, 1 more Fighting Style and Survivor). So it can be evaluate easilly with DPR to see how effective it can be with or without this specialisation because anyway all that specialisation give is about combat. And this is where everthing start to hurt IMO, Champion only has abilities that increase how he perform in combat and is main one about Critical wasn't great at doing what it should do. It barely increase you damage potential and on top of that you didn't control it. You have stated yourself that it is good with Paladin because you could use your Divine Smite when you achieve Critical, but this is possible because you could control when you Divine Smite after knowing you have achieve a critical. In this situation, it's not the Critical Range that is strong but the way you could use Divine Smite after knowing that you Crits. If you change the rule and you should call your Divine Smite before rolling D20 you notice that it became really bad. IMO it's a proof that Critical Range increase wasn't a good ability to increase your damage potential. It's a nice have like for the Hexblade curse, but the curse isn't good because of critical on 19-20 but because you add your proficiency bonus to damage against the cursed target. At the end, more I read your comments and more I feel that you have a problem about the Tier rankings and comparing class/subclass together. If it's the cases, keep in mind that it's not because someone like to Min/Max, that he is bad at Roleplaying and couldn't have fun with others. The important is adapting you playstyle to the group you are playing with and having fun together!
What's nice though is you can trip target and then move onto a different target with extra attack/action surge. And your bar/melee buddies get advantage
For Cavalier you can also take the mounted combatant feat and make a point of riding your horse. You can get one of the defensive foghting styles, use a shield, full plate and a lance. With mounted combatant, your mount will be hard to kill and you'll have advantage on most attacks, you'll have amazing damage with the lance, you don't have to worry about the possible lost movement speed on plate armor thanks to you using your horse's mobility, not your's, and because your mount can use it's mobility actions while you attack, you can be fighting while also giving enemies disadvantage, or getrinf away without forcing an opportunity attack, and close distance well. Pair them together and you can have a very tanky and high damage fighter that is hard to hit, and can protect his teammates forcing enemies to hit him first, but forcing them to miss most of the time.
Can't wait to see samurai on the next one, I've been playing one recently and I was geniuenly surprised by how deceptively good it can be. simply put, it has some simplicity that the champion offers but much less mundane than it. and while it's not as indepth as cavalier or much less so battlemaster, effective use of fighting spirit can do wonders, I even managed to stay alive for around 4 consecutive rounds in melee range with the boss on death's door thanks to some luck but also tactical use of fighting spirit for the temp hp and the free advantage on attacks to finish them off with massive damage. loved the video, can't wait for the next!
My first Fighter (in draft) is a Samurai for similar reasons: I wanted more flavor than with a subclass like the Champion, but nothing as complex as something like the Battle Master. I hope I chose well, because my character concept is now closely intertwined with the subclass (and no, not stereotypical Asian tropes).
@@bigdream_dreambig mine wasn't the case either but as is with most fighters your fun is going to depend on the character themselves, who they are and why are they the way they are. not how much damage they can deal. hope you enjoy the character as much as I enjoy mine. oh and my samurai was far from the namesake it's based on too lol.
Kinda disappointed that you threw your rule about only looking at pure mechanical strength out the window when talking about the champion. Not that I disagree it’s simple and bland, but it’s a strong and versatile subclass that makes the fighter much better at all the things they want to do. And as for recommending it to new players, that’s entirely separate from how good it objectively is. Loved the entire video except that, and even then I would have enjoyed your harsh but fair opinions were it not for the fact this series is meant to be a more detached mechanical analysis.
If I recall, mathematically it does worse than the battle master and it just has less options. There are certain builds that can take advantage of it, but for the most part they are better built elsewhere
They do not have the rule of "looking on pure mechanical strength". The fun of playing the subclass is considered too, and Champion has little of it. All you do in combat is throw some more dice with more often crits. They do not consider roleplay, yes, but that only means the part of it that is not baked by some abilities. How do you compare the roleplay capability of, for example, Cavalier and Samurai? But if the subclass has some ability that is roleplay-based, they do consider it.
@@Soupdude338 On average yes the battlemaster will do better damage. But there are few things scarier than a half-orc champion with GWM, a greataxe or greatsword, and going on a crit streak. Multi-class 3 levels into Barbarian (Berserker and Wolf totem are my preferred choices for damage) and it can get REALLY stupid when you reckless attack every strike.
@@xaviervega468 so yeah with the exact right multiclass you can crit efficiently and get good damage. But for most builds, it's just not as good, and even there I would rather have an optimized battle master build because they can do things a champion can't and still do equivalent damage.
Champion is great with paladin and rogue too. Its hardly one specific combo. Champions also excel at higher levels where their non-dependance on resources is great for long dungeon crawls or time-sensitive missions where you can't just rest over and over. BM is way better at low levels though, which is the majority of campaigns.
Whenever I think of the Champion subclass, I always picture Carrot from the Terry Pratchet book "Guards Guards!" Carrot is textbook D&D Champion, which is why I love him 😁
Echo Knight is going to come up as pretty amazing as well. Can't wait till they review that one... Multiple attackers, shift around map, give yourself advantage with your echo fighting your target... so good.
@@GhimyDaCheese It is 100% official. And if they looked at the Circle of Spores from Ravinica, a MTG setting, I don't see any reason they wouldn't do it for Wildemount.
@@GhimyDaCheese Because Blood Hunter isn't part of EGTW. It's a separate thing that was originally published on DM'S Guild, so they own the publishing rights to it.
It has just occurred to me that each fighter subclass should have a small number of maneuvers available to them with the d6 superiority and the battlemaster having access to all of them with dice improvement. Hopefully 6e will run with this.
It's actually neat that this video came out when it did. I 've been tinkering away at an Arcane Archer revision myself. As is, it's not... bad, but it just doesn't compare to either the Battle Master or Gunslinger. The fact that you only get 2 uses of Arcane Shot, ever, is not great. However, it's doubly bad when you realize that most Shot effects only last 1 round (Not you, Grasping Shot. You're amazing!). And, it's triply bad when you realize these shots don't even scale until 18th level! Who thought this was a good idea? Like, imagine if your Superiority Dice didn't go up to a d10 until level 18. Those are my thoughts. The following is me talking about the changes I'd make if anyone is interested! For my changes, I decided to keep most of the subclass the same, while really only focusing on 'fixing' the Arcane Shot options (Again, except for you, Grasping Shot. You're great!). I made it where most ranged weapons can use Arcane Shot (bows, crossbows, daggers, darts, etc.), the shots scale at 10th *and* 18th level, I extended most of the durations to around 1 minute with the ability for targets to end the effect early with successful saves or checks. If the AA only gets 2 shots, I wanted to give them more bang for their buck. Thank you to anyone who took time to read this! Much appreciated!
I like giving them Arcane Shots = INT modifier (min of 2) and a duration of rounds = INT modifier (min of 1) if it states 1 round of duration. Feels rewarding for people who don't go with the bare minimum INT. I actually like the limitation of bows as both a flavour thing and a push for me making more intresting bows.
@@AlexisVolk97 I considered giving them more shots, but that feels like treading on Battle Master territory. Plus, with some of the Shots I came up with, it might become OP to have more shots. Also, there is incentive for AA's to have high INT as it affects their saving throw DC. Regardless, thank you for the feedback!
@@aldoesagood5316 Everything sounds very good, but to me, it looks like Arcane Crossbowman wouldn't be as neat a concept and extending it to thrown weapons is beyond good and evil (though both can sure be fun if they do work).
Personally I opened it up to them learning all options at lvl3 and shot number relies on your fighter proficiency bonus. So it scales in shot count as you level, but you're encouraged to be crafty with all of your options available to you. I'd personally rather you creatively use the crappier shot options once in a while than to simply never touch them and spam the same two because they're stronger.
Variant human fighter at level one taking martial adept, and the superior technique fighting style (UA class feature variants) which will probably be published in Tasha’s, you can get three maneuvers and 2 superiority dice at d6 level 1. Additionally, when you hit level 3 they upgrade to d8’s and you keep your original dice and maneuvers. Also in class feature variants is a free fighter feature that allows you to swap out a maneuver for another one called Maneuver Versatility, making battlemaster even more flexible. Taking these at level 1 can give you so much more mileage from battlemaster, and giving you your subclass at level 1 essentially, making you a battlemaster through and through. Edit 1: Another cool thing to do with battlemaster, if you pair it with mastermind rogue, you can spend a few minutes to learn their entire loadout in terms of attributes, hit points, armor class, etc. Edit 2: one last cool thing, you can go college of swords bard as well, giving you blade flourishes that are based off of your inspiration dice. This is a fun multiclass for battlemaster. Using a superiority die for evasive footwork followed by a defensive flourish is incredibly strong and really fun to whip out while in danger.
"A lot of the [Battle Master] maneuvres work with ranged attacks [...] you're not locked into anything." Springs to mind when the sword and board fighter decided to go for a ranged attack to knock a flying creature out of the sky. Where was that from? Oh yea, Dungeons of Drakkenheim. Honestly, Joe showcased very well how powerful the Battle Master can be. Edit: Also, regarding the Cavalier, if you make it to 18th level, the lvl 10 and 18 features together, along with Polearm Master and Sentinel can allow you to shut down an entire group of enemies, conmpletely preventing them from moving. Sentinel is somewhat redundant, but it doesn't hurt. And at 18th level, a Fighter can have so many feats it shouldn't be a problem.
Personally I believe the champion subclass is an A tier cause I played one recently, and I was a variant human who had sharpshooter, crossbow expert, the piercer feat and a magic crossbow and I was a powerhouse on the battlefield and got to role play him as the punisher which was pretty fun
They very briefly touched on this. You were a powerhouse because of sharpshooter, crossbow expert etc. not because of the champion. What Champion adds beyond what you already had from the rest isn't really that much. In my eyes, champion is far, far more effective as a dip class, taking a few levels to grab the improved criticals, along with the great early level fighter abilities.
@@Nstanier I'm beginning to think that this is the secret strength of the Champion subclass. It really allows other options to shine more brightly than they would in other classes with more features. Customization is difficult in some cases because you need to use particular weapons or certain tactics, but the Champion takes everything and makes it a little bit better.
Love your videos, but Champion is clearly D-tier. Everyone fawns over critical hits, without ever analyzing the math. A champion with a great sword and a 19-20 crit rage, instead of 20, does an extra 7 damage on average every 20 attacks... so it's +0.35 damage/attack. The expanded crit range is a trap ability... just like brutal critical on the barbarian.
I love these guides. I don’t have a lot of experience with 5e and these guides have helped me find character ideas that mesh well with what I want to play in upcoming games. Thanks guys, keep up the good work!
The Champion subclass suffers from having it's good ablities coming to late. That second fighting stlye needed to come at 7th lvl, and the hit point recovery coming up at 10th then a significant capstone ability
If the champion’s thing was supposed to be “ehh, activation is hard. Let’s passive” I might have said just give them expertise in athletics and acrobatics as well as proficiency to initiative, con saves and wisdom saves. Boom. Simple. Solid.
I'd love to push the 7th level ability to join the improved crit at lv 3 to feel substantial. Remarkable Athlete is just the most lackluster ability to get so deep into the class.
The Arcane Archer is so criminally underpowered. All the abilities are cool, but you can almost never use them. It's like being a Champion 99% of the time.
AA really, really needs to work more similarly to the Battlemaster. If its Arcane Shots were as usable as the BM's Maneuvers, it would be a really stylish and tactical subclass.
Champion becomes an s tier if you pair it with a paladin and smite on crits. Paladins are built to fish for critical hits and 5 levels of champion with 5 levels of say vengeance paladin can action surge with 2 extra attacks on each action and if you have advantage (which you can get from your vengeance enmity ability bonus action) you will average over 1 crit on 6 attack dice on one turn giving you an average of a 125-175 (range vary wildly you can stack over 200) on a single turn if you landed only 1 crit and half that on subsequent turns, the paladin offers much needed flavor to an otherwise boring single subclass. This build comes online as early as level 6 and has sweet spots and 8 and 10 and past that i prefer to lean into the paladin for bigger smites with upcasts but do whatever! Your character already has PHAT 1 shot potential and is easy and fun to roleplay as that hero among heroes "ill lead the charge" archetype.
I feel like AA gets a lot of shit cause battle master is just broken, it's the most versatile and most powerful subclass fighters have. On its own AA is a fun, very versatile,and a good damage dealer with a lot of situational "keys" that disarm roadblocks for the party. Any AA that has dodged and encounter with banishment or used shadow arrow into action surge with a party of ranged allies going after them can tell you of the power they wield. Imo the maneuvers have no business recharging on a short rest. Even when playing other classes with a BM on the party, his strength is kinda oppressive in comparison to every other player at the table (or most) specially between LVL 3-5, it's just insane and few can match at that point. Also one of the things AA and BM area actually matched is in terms of damage they do until they have to short rest (with the BM doing more effects because you can use maneuvers more), with I believe 4d8s. Which is interesting because a lot of ppl complain that you never use your core ability, but in fact when you use it you truly use it, and the effects are honestly very good. And it still recharges on a SS, tell the warlock that's a deal-breaker... I think this is a case where I just don't agree with the dudes, they used a wierd and very lawyery argument to make it C and it's a B for sure (which in the right setting as we know can be an S, perfect description of AA) TL DR 2 shots per short rest is good 4 to 6 superiority per short rest is broken
I am in such agreement that new players deserve more credit than the Champion gives them. It's more basic than a pumpkin spice latte. The system already spent two levels basically teaching you how to play the game already. Maybe it's because Pathfinder/3.5 is my 'home system' but the Champion, while it's not BAD by any stretch, is almost insulting in its simplicity.
You know if you allow feat a champion can be a better version of a cavalier... Just take mounted combat which is essential even as cavalier (because otherwise yojr mount will be super squishy and it also gives advantage for ypur attacks) and sentinel. You will be a cavalier with HP regen and better crit range At lv6 your champion will have all the feature of a lv10 cavalier... The only difference is the very good cavalier lv18 feature which is very good as defender, but end level campaign are very very rare anyway Same apply for any warrior subclasses lol
Well Thanks! I had dismissed the Cavalier, much like Kelly i had misread the Cavalier as requiring a horse to be effective. Looking at it now yeh its an awesome tank subclass. Wish it had survivability baked in but then it would be *the* tank class not just a good option. Battlemaster was originally the base idea for fighters when they were playtesting for 5e, it should have stayed that way its so good and versatile, basically flavor is the only reason to choose any other, but always feels like your missing something. The arcane archer is the biggest disappointment *ever*, i read it and was like why would you create this, its basically a battlemaster with a ton of water added. its the same mechanic maneuvers on attacks... but less maneuvers, with less weapon options, with less damage, less maneuvers per short rest... W T F
I love this channel & I'm about to offer some criticism I don't understand the hang-up on Crossbow Expert. I mean who cares?! Why are you even talking about crossbows on a bow & arrow fighter? This section could have been scripted better to reduce drag. You could have cut that section out completely.
Arcane Archer should have been something in between battlemaster and e.k. battlemaster starts with 4 uses per short rest and eventually 6 per and e.k get 2 per long rest but increase up to 11 spells per day. So maybe start with 2 per short rest that increases to 3 per at 11ish and 4 at 18ish. Add the overlooked crossbows back into class. Shouldn't be overpowered but gets closer to the other subclasses.
@@CheefChaos yeah Mike mearls said it was an oversight and jeremy crawford said it wasn't. So it seems it was intentionally supposed to be a POS Z tier class no one was ever supposed to play. They are fun 2 shots a day.
You are totally betraying your own criteria with the Champion, I agree that it is a "boring" sublcass but it is fing strong by itself, it has a great potential for multiclassing and for taking feats. There are other classes that you have rated really high and many times you pair that power with your enjoyment, and in many cases I hate those subclasses because they make super strong options in easy ways that I find unappealing.
05:45 You saved the video. If Shadow arrow was not mentioned in the best arrows the rest of the video and the next would be irrelevant. Shadow and enfeebling are borderline broken.
Considering the flavour of Fighters as the class specifically good at beating people up in a skilled and proficient way (as opposed to the Barbarians brite force), and the uniqueness of the ability, I really think maneuvers should just be part of the Fighter class kit. BattleMaster could still have the other flavor abilities, and could augment the superiority dice, but base fighters should be good at tripping and disarming opponents.
There is no need to say don't play cavalier as thanks to roll 20 you would have a map for online play. IRL you also are going to be using a map. the champion shouldn't be ranked by "being bored" since it is said by you guys that you are not ranking rp but by mechanics. So mechanically speaking it is good, which by the way if it lacks special things you can do just add feats to make it interesting.
I am a new player, began this summer with my older brother and a few friends. Started as a fighter, and whent straight for Battle Master when the option was open and I have been having a blast
Champion being a B because its "boring" feels wrong. If they are strong but just aren't "cool" then that doesn't really take away from their effectiveness. Feels like a big load of BS,e specially considering RP isn't being taken into account and all being "cool" or "flashy" is is RP, not mechanical advantage
I think the main problem with the Champion is that, unlike subclasses not just for the Fighter but literally every other class, all of its abilities are passive and need a lot of help to come online to match the damage output of other, better subclasses.
Part 2, featuring the Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, Purple Dragon Knight, and the Samurai is here: ua-cam.com/video/fbRpagP0kW0/v-deo.html
Ooooh i need to check out Echo Knight
Champion needs a buff. 19-20 for crit is overrated AF; good but ain't shit compared to Battlemaster.
@@jmoa5758 I half think that that’s on purpose. Champion is almost tailor made to be “baby’s first subclass.”
Ok just wondering if D&D has a Dragon Knight class and what abilities/skills they have or can have
Champion: Yo we heard you like Fighter so we put more Fighter in your Fighter.
Damn dude what reddit post did you find that one on?
@@jack_jagger1 oh man, if you don't know Jocat you're in for a ride; ua-cam.com/video/nVReBH3QYD0/v-deo.html&ab_channel=JoCat
So you can fight while you fight?
Don't want to be to creative now do we?
-Jocat
Love the idea of expanding my crit chance so I wish they would work that in somewhere else
I appreciate the timestamps.
@AP Poor guy. I hope they find a new job soon.
Arcane Shot should be a Proficiency-based resource that recharges on a short rest like a lot of the newer subclasses have.
Agreed. I think an Eldritch Knight with even a quick dip into rogue is a better fit for an arcane archer
Uses should line up with battlemaster or EK. Either spellslot style or point based.
@@LiqwdE You don't want it to have it be in line with battlemaster because the arcane shots do a lot more.
Arcane Archer is one of the worst serious archer builds in the game, which is really ironic. As mentioned you can do a BM, EK, I played a Samurai /w sharpshooter, and it was insanely good.
That's my house rule.
I know multiclassing isn't the focus, but a Cavalier Fighter/Ancestral Barbarian says "get bent" to things attacking their allies
Doesn't it feel a bit like waste? Lvl 3 feature is almost the same and needing to go to high levels on equal split doesn't sound the best. I reckon both of the options with sentinel /polearm master are better on their own as in multiclass? Or do you see something I don't?
@@Dezbood and polearm master and tunnel fighter fighting style?
Multiclassing any “warrior” class before level 5 means you don’t get extra attack until you reach level 5 in one of the classes. IMO, It’s a huge let down to not get extra attack as soon as possible.
@@keithhoovestol1035 that's why I just play a gestalt when I wanna multiclass
Sounds like Kanji Tatsumi lol
Dwarven Battlemaster/Divination wizard.
"The runes foretold you would be losin' that fancy sword laddie" Attacks, uses Disarming attack, uses a portent with a lower number to automatically cause the target fail their saving throw. Sheath your blade and take theirs.
Sheath your blade, wait until the next round to take their as you've already used your object interaction and aw fuck they just picked it back up.
RAW, babyyyy
@@jhinpotion9230 i mean you could action surge to pull the trick, its a rather expensive gimmick but a fun one nonetheless
@@jhinpotion9230 Use Object 1st turn to pick up their weapon, sheathe your other weapon at the start of your 2nd turn. As long as you don't have a shield or an off-hand weapon you can pull it off.
@@Deltajugg Yeah, as long as you don't. I assumed you would, but it's doable that way.
Or force them to autofail a hold person and crit them to death.
I've seen champion fighters do so much damage per round. Like when a duel weilder action surged with a Wolf totem barbarian nearby. Four of the five attacks were critical hits. Then all three of his attacks were crits on the next round.
That adult black drago didn't stand a chance.
@Aidan Hall Agreed, it let me focus on the simplicity and power of *SUPER ORC* !
Good lord, that’s absolutely unreal
Yeah, but that's rolling 18-20 seven times in two rounds. It's legendary when it happens, but it doesn't always happen.
If Crits came from rolling 10+ the targets AC, you wouldn't need to roll 18, you could feasibly Crit every time against certain types of foes.
Unfortunately a Paladin with only 1 or 2 of those crits can surpass that damage with a smite.
@@wititorac not anymore 😂
Tell me Battlemaster is S tier
It's really not even fair how good Battle Master is.
Gotta be
SSS
Battlemaster is also my favourite conceptually, very much the quintessential professional fighter.
Battle master is S tier sir , we can all agree
re: new player credit: I DM'd a game for a bachelor party recently and they asked me to make up a stack of level 5 characters they could use because 4 of the 6 folks playing had never played before and they just wanted to jump in. The rockstar of the night was the guy playing Clu, the Changeling Inquisitive Rogue. He immediately got the concept, used all of his abilities whenever he could, and while he needed some help with the rolling bits he absolutely crushed it. The group as a whole had an absolute blast and by the end of the 5 hour session everyone was flexing their TTRPG muscles pretty hard for a group that was largely new to D&D and TTRPG's as a whole.
I recently ran a game for a bachelor party as well! However we had 10 players, played twice that weekend, love it when new people really get the hang of it!
@@cfoscoop that sounds like a blast! It was also my first paid DM session, which was super cool and has me wanting to do it more lol
Reminds me of a character I ran who was a Changeling named Kru (pronounced Crew) who was a Bladepact Hexblade Warlock, and everytime he changed his weapon, he'd change his face and used a different name for each face.
@Aaron Snyder the first time I played dnd was with an inquisitive rogue, and this story remind me...well of me 😅
Just for FYI I played a black Dragonborn inquisitive rogue.
@@Dragon_Song1 I'm just imagining this big scaly dude who has a sherlock outfit on and that is just oddly hilarious to me for some reason
"Cavalier offers no defensive abilities" *Warding Maneuver goes off and cries in the corner*
What's really annoying is how the Arcane Archer really can't use their special arrows all that often. Most of the time, they're just Archers that sometimes do magic. It's sad.
Their level seven abilities allows them to basically Reroll a missed attack against another target once per turn. Also all their attacks become magic.
@@goldengaruda8935 And that's awesome. But that just means like 90% of the time the 7th Level Fighter using Arcane Archer is just a archer that hits a little more often. The core of their class just doesn't get enough uses.
@@MagusAgrippa8 true, that's why my DM homebrewed it so you get a number of shots = # of types of arcane arrows + INT or WIS
We have a houserule in my games that whenever you get a new shot option, you get a new shot use. I’ll also be working on new shots to use, which is another thing that hinders the Arcane Archer. Hopefully TCoE adds more arcane shots in addition to the new Maneuvers
Also you cant really Switch your Magic Arrows, you only learn then and thats it. I dont found a sentence that allows me to change the School of Magic.
I’m in a campaign right now where I’m playing as a cavalier and my buddies a moon Druid. I’m telling you right now nothing’s more fun then riding on top of a giant toad smiting foes lol
We have a Battle Master in one of our groups. One of my favorite moments from her was an evening when the dice just weren't in her favor and she said, "Fuck it. I'm rolling for shit," and used her Commander's Strike each turn the rest of the combat.
I’ve always liked the idea of pairing a rogue and battle master fighter. Have the rogue delay their turn until after the fighter and allow the fighter to get into close combat and use commander’s strike and let the rogue sneak attack, then the rogue’s turn comes and their sneak attack then resets on their turn I believe, essentially allowing two sneak attacks per round. I think it is allowed due to the wording of sneak attack being once per turn and not once per round, but I could be wrong.
@@andrewmckeown4238 It wouldn't matter if the fighter or rogue goes first, it is true that it's once per TURN, and not per round.
@@lucania101710 cool, I just didn’t know if the rogue would need to wait for their turn for their sneak attack to “reset” after using it outside their turn, kinda like a reaction ya know? But that makes it even better. Just make a squad of rogues and battle masters lol
@@andrewmckeown4238 You can't "delay" your turn in 5e
@@WexMajor82 well you can do anything you want in 5e, tons of people use sprinklings of older editions. I’ve recently started watching Dimension 20 and Brennan let’s them delay turns all the time. Besides, it just makes sense to be able to do, “I would like to wait until I see my allies plans” or “my ally has a plan and I want to wait until after them so as not to ruin it or interfere”. Realistically you wouldn’t waste your turn dodging or hiding or something
Two ways you can easily fix the Arcane Archer:
A) Whenever you learn a new Arcane Shot option, you gain another use of your arcane shot.
B) You can use Arcane Shots a number of times per short or Long rest equal to your proficiency bonus.
Also could improve the damage scaling. It sits static until you reach level 18
@@jcdenton2187 yeah, I'd make it level 10 or 15 tops, waiting until 18 is way too long
I've done both, it works
Nice idea mind if I use it
After looking at everything that it includes and looking at other ones in the same genre, I think I'm going to have to give this video an S-tier rating.
Duude I love your videos, the encounters are amazing.
I'm with Kelly; I prefer bows to crossbows.
You will probably spend a lot of time arguing with the min/max munchkins who love heavy crossbows.
Yeah I don't get why Monty kept going on about Crossbow Expert making a better archer. Crossbows aren't the typical thing you would think of with an archer, and the Crossbow Expert feat only gives one very niche benefit to an Arcane Archer (that being the 5 ft. disadvantage alleviation).
@@lt.branwulfram4794
IIRC, hand crossbow is more damage overall than heavy with your peak 5 shots per turn, taking sharpshooter and crossbow expert, and leaning into dex for a few levels. Heavy would be better if you need that bonus action for something else, too, though
@@duffman2625 They are not supposed to be judging flavor. I get that bows are cool, but that should not affect the ranking. I agree with Monty and disagree with Kelly here. The exclusion of crossbows is bad from an optimization point of view, and from a flavor point of view because not every one prefers bows.
@@duffman2625 Mechanically though Monty is right. Which is why I despise Crossbow Expert.
I love these videos and it'd be great if, when you're done with them, you went back and gave your own favorite house rule tweaks for C Tier and lower subclasses that would raise them up a bit.
This would actually be really cool, agreed :D
Champion seems designed specifically for "that guy" who never remembers his abilities. It's super easy for everyone else at the table to keep track of the abilities and remind him to use them. He's only at the table because D&D is what the group is doing and plays like an NPC+
Hey I resent that! I at least get to role play damn it! -Champion Orc falcion user....
That's why my wife picked it in our current campaign.
We just had a baby so she doesn't want to think during play
@@alexpietsch7997 my wife sits on her phone all the time when we play (even though she seems to get excited when she makes up a character for said game.
I have a friend who loved the champion because he forgets his abilities a lot and it was a lot easier for him. He's great role-play wise all his own so doesn't need a subclass to bolster it so champion worked well for him.
As someone who struggles with ADHD, you’re not wrong 😂
Call me Vanilla but Human Fighter is one of my favorite builds.
Hey, Vanilla but Human Fighter is one of my favorite builds, you can call me Sam
Vanilla is the finest of the flavours. :)
yeh the super races and super classes are getting out of hand i remember the fighter , thief , cleric , magic user days lol
I agree, getting a feat for free at first level is great
One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a human fighter.
BattleMaster is so good that it got its own feat AND fighting style. It’s sad that superiority dice weren’t included just as a fighter feature like it was originally intended.
I feel like champion fighters get a terrible rap. They get unique passive abilities and they can be game changing and useful. The passive healing can get you out of a fight alive and take on ordeals that even Barbarians could only dream of. Additionally the criticals increase the overall damage output of the fighter. It seems bland at first but every critical hit is still a cheering moment at the table. The critcal hit chance increase is just as amazing as battle master maneuvers IMO. Champion fighters are my favorite. I would still rank them A-tier because they pale in comparison to battlemaster but it is still amazing.
totally agree. especially for the games that i am playing. we get mostly heavy battles a lot. with castle defence or raids that more than one sessions. when everyone else runs out of things to do i still have my fu hits
The ability to crit on a 19 is mathematically week (only 5% damageboost) . None of the fighting styles stack well. The only strong ability, generating hp, comes on to late.
But at 15 its 3x as many critics, while the BM is choosing from the same maneuvers they already passed over at levels 3,7, and 10. Your maneuvers die upgrades from an average of 4.5 to s 6.5 over the course of your entire career, which isn't great.
I feel like BM is a sprinter, coming hard and fast out of the gates. The champion is the marathon runner that gets stronger the longer you go. In a low level campaign (which is most to be fair) the BM is way stronger. But the higher level you go, the more champions and their resourceless playstyle starts to shine.
@@shazariahl that 6.5 is an extra 40% damage mathematically while the 18-20 crit range is 10% extra damage or 3d12 over 20 attacks.
Imagine combining that expanded crit range with a Half-Orc savage attack and feats. I don't think it meets the A rank criteria that the Dudes have (and it is pretty boring to just "faceroll"), but it is a solid B.
I was highly disappointed in the Arcane Archer almost completely... they should have just created maneuvers for the Battle Master that were designed specifically for bows and being an archer, like split shot, pinning shot, etc similar to some of the older shots from previous editions. As is, I would give the Arcane Archer a D ranking at best. The Battle Master makes a better archer because as you said, they can use a bow with many of their maneuvers as is.
It takes a little more narrative work to roleplay the Champions archetype abilities, BUT it is possible, and just because it doesn't require a lot of tactical thought doesn't detract from the fact that it is effective. You could focus your roleplay the characters background instead though. When paired with another player that can create a situation where you get advantage on your attacks, the damage you can deal from SOOOO many possible crits is impressive. I give the Champion a solid A especially when you include how easy it is for a new player. Although for experienced players, it is bland.
If you want to try something cool, make an Arcane Archer High elf with Elven ccuracy and Sharp Shooter, then use the blinding arrow and have fun at level 12 having more chances than a Champion to crit while adding a plus 15 modifier to the damages of your 5 arrows after the first blinded the target
Rick Williams I can’t rank it a D because it’s not a trap, just weak. C for me.
UA 2019 ADDED SNIPE!!! Air Genasi BattleMaster with a bow, loving the fighting style as you can still get up close with two weapons and riposte.and Snipe from UA 2029 is phenomenal.
I feel like you can't include RP potential for the reasons Kelly and Monte don't: it's entirely too subjective. Any character can be well RP'd, but at the end of the day the mechanics of some classes/subclasses are just objectively better than others.
As far as flavoring goes though, I recently put together a Goliath Battle Master with the Grappler feat. She's a Battlefest (ala TAZ) champion and I reflavored her maneuvers to be her signature wrestling moves
The Champion fight is IMO a great multiclass option. It's increased crit chance integrate easily into any other combat focused build. My favorite character was a totem warrior barbarian/champion fighter. You instantly become an absolute unit that never goes down who deals an insane amount of damage due to the doubled crit chance.
I did the same thing. It is a wrecking ball, especially with bear totem. GWM Reckless every attack. Woof.
Barbarians, Rogues and Paladins can greatly benefit from the champion’s improved critical.
Play an elf with elven acurrcy makes you a critting machine. I think a great combo is a level 5 ranger level 7 rougue and then 3 fighter.
It's pretty awful to play vanilla (assuming no feats too), but as part of a toolkit I appreciate it's existence. It's a solid multiclass dip without tacking on any extra mechanics to keep track of and where it really shines is for DMs wanting to slap some class levels on their monsters without causing themselves a massive headache. Alternatively, if you're like me and don't like GMing allied NPCs in combat, your players aren't going to be so overwhelmed if you toss one of them a Champion Fighter character to manage.
Switching to Pathfinder has given me a lot of perspective on running complicated NPCs and while statting them out I often find myself thinking "what features can I pick that will give me the least number of things to keep track of". Reality of the situation is that a player will learn a character slowly and stick with it for a long time (in general), as a GM you've got maybe an hour to remember what's on that character sheet and the 5 stat blocks next to it so you can run it competently in combat - basic/passive-heavy builds make this so much easier.
I think the Champion subclass excels the most when taken as a 3 level multiclass dip for a Barbarian or Paladin to really double down on critical hits
battlemaster is one of the few top tier subclasses that doesnt feel opressive because its so good mainly due to its versatility and how many ways you can flavor it. i'm running a martial artist battlemaster who dual wields escrima sticks and it just captures the idea of a martial character so incredibly well that its almost he only full martial i ever play and i never get bored of it
Edit: Mike Mearls claimed crossbows are allowed but Jeremy Crawford later corrected him stating they are in fact excluded
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Original post below
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In Sage Advice, Jeremy Crawford admitted that the exclusion of crossbows for the arcane archer was just an oversight and not intentional. Personally I would allow my players to use crossbows on their arcane archer (in fact, 1 asked me just yesterday)
I like the idea of a crossbow wielding Arcane archer angering bow wielding ones, believing they “sullied” the ancient technique with this newfangled tech.
I agree, they need a crossbow. But still, they should have just be able to select more arcane abilities and case them more often. It is like a worse example of metamagic.
@@gyarados6665 oh yeah, I'm definitely doing that when the campaign arc brings them into elven territory 😁
In my game the way we did it was made it so you choose between bows and crossbows when you pick the subclass
funnily in some cases i reflavor some weapons to be a different kind, so a crossbow made by a good craftsman? it can be a powerful compound bow, but it have all the limitations (the loading is because the weapon is really bulky to use normally, so you have a limit to your shots)
I admit I have a soft spot for the Champion, because I love it really embodying that picture of a character that came from nothing with nothing but still becomes a hero. I *like* that it doesn't get big, fancy abilities, because that's part of the fun for me. It allows me to play that unseeming, unlikely hero that's so very popular in folk lore and pop culture. Just a random nobody who somehow gets roped into saving the world.
Now, I get that you guys don't consider flavor and roleplaying potential, which I agree with. Any subclass can be roleplayed in amazing ways. However, I do think that a lot of the people that rated underestimate the power of an increased crit chance. One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a 3 barbarian/6 champion half-orc. I only played him in a one-shot and in that one-shot I managed to deal *200* damage in one turn, using Orcish Fury, Reckless Attack, Action Surge, and Great Weapon Master. By itself, the increased crit chance isn't that great, I do agree. But subclasses don't exist in a vacuum. As long as you have someone in your party that can give you reliable advantage on attack rolls (such as a druid with Faerie Fire) or multiclassed into a different class that can give you reliable advantage on attack rolls (such as barbarian or warlock through Devil's Sight + Darkness), champion goddamn *decimates* in terms of damage. Granted, it does usually take until around level 8 or 9 to really take off as it's either multiclass and/or feat dependent.
That said, it's nowhere as good as the likes of Battle Master, Eldritch Knight or even Samurai. Still a really solid A-Tier, especially if you're like me and appreciate simplicity. I've never needed special, game-changing abilities to have fun in D&D, I've always appreciated the archetypal subclasses that really embody the essence of the class (such as Circle of the Land, Champion, Open Hand, Oath of Devotion), even if others tend to find them boring or lacklustre.
While I agree with your point that simplicity is beauty, I disagree with the statement that a lot of people underestimate the power of an increased crit chance. Most humans are bad at grasping probability, so I think more often criticals are overrated because we only remember the rare times it happens. But if you crunch the numbers, the increased crit range isn't doing a lot.
Here's some quick maths:
Against an appropriately challenging enemy relative to your current level, the chance of hitting an enemy is around 50-50, which means on a roll of 1-10 it misses, 11-20 it hits.
Let's say you're swinging a Greatsword once which deals 7 damage on average, if you calculate the average of 1-10 missing (0 damage), 11-19 hit (7 damage), 20 crit (14 damage), the average is 3.85.
If crits weren't a thing, the average is 3.5, so the crit on 20 is only adding 0.35 damage.
If you increase crit range to 19-20, the average damage is 4.2 which is also 3.85 + 0.35.
So every additional crit range only adds 0.35, meaning an 18-20 crit would be 4.55 damage.
To show how bad an extra crit range really is, compare what happens if instead of gaining an additional crit range you instead gain +1 damage, so you're doing 8 on a hit instead of 7. If you only crit at 20, your average damage would be 4.4 which is 0.2 higher than what you get with an additional crit range (4.2).
Mathematically, the increased crit range is only adding less than 1 point of base damage to your attacks.
And that's just theoretically, like you said subclasses don't exist in a vacuum, and crits don't either. In practice, criticals would actually be doing less damage than they actually would because of how unreliable they are. Why? Because crits don't always matter, if you crit on an enemy that would've died even if you didn't crit then the crit was useless. In practice the actual damage calculation doesn't really matter, what matters more is how many hits it takes to take down an enemy.
Here's a nitpick scenario: you're the Greatsword fighter above fighting a 15 HP enemy,
If you deal 7 damage per hit, you'd kill it in 3 hits.
If you crit once, you can kill in 2 hits.
If you crit twice, you also kill in 2 hits.
If you get the increased crit range, you still can only kill it in 2 turns, just the chance is much higher.
If instead of getting increased crit range you got the +1 damage instead, you'd do 8 damage instead of 7, you always kill in 2 hits.
Again the scenario I made up was nitpicked to illustrate a point, but even in practice, a consistent damage bonus is better than an unreliable crit range increase. Reliability = more damage, this also applies in other scenarios like Eldritch Blast (without invocations) vs Firebolt. At level 5 mathematically they deal the same amount of damage, 2d10 which is 11 damage on average, but in practice the 2 x 1d10 Eldritch Blast is better than the 2d10 FIrebolt. Now imagine Eldritch Blast shot only 1 blast that deals 2d6 damage, but if you roll a 20 you shoot another blast, that's basically what a Greatsword crit is. A crit is basically you sometimes get an additional weapon hit, which you can't control.
Crits feel great but a more reliable damage source is more bland but also reliable. If you take any Champion Fighter that deals massive damage, and replace it with a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight that picked appropriate maneuvers or spells, and got the same buffs/conditions that the Champion Fighter also got, they would be more effective at dealing damage than the Champion Fighter. So while yes, a Champion Fighter can decimate in terms of damage, it's neither a specialty nor are they the best at it, which is sad because that's all they can do. Other subclasses can deal more damage but are also more flexible.
@@banan9377 Oh yeah, I would absolutely never, ever claim that Champion deals more damage than a Battle Master. Eldritch Knight... maybe, at least until they get Haste. But even then, Champion's damage does not make up for the added tankiness and utility that Eldritch Knight's spellcasting offers. Those two are the top notch Fighter subclasses to me, then there's a bit of a drop and then comes Samurai. Then another drop and then comes Champion imo. And while your calculations make a lot of sense, they do leave some things out, such as Great Weapon Master. Champion has double the chance to trigger the bonus action attack on crits. They also don't consider advantage, which makes an added 5% crit chance far more valuable, or abilities like Savage Attacks which makes crits deal more damage. But I don't expect you to consider all of these things, haha. Perhaps I'm just delusioned by my love for crits.
@@Adoribull1312 while there are some cases where the crit is a good feature, I think in a lot of cases there are still better options. For example, take the level 15 feature where you crit on an 18-20. If you have advantage as the Greatsword Fighter, you'd do 7.1925 damage on average, which looks impressive, but if you compare that to using a level 1 spell Hex or Hunter's Mark (only critting on a 20) which you can do by multiclassing or a feat, with advantage you'd do 8.89875 damage. A level 1 spell gives more damage than a level 15 feature.
Depending on your build you can always work out the math to determine whether or not a crit is worth it. However, with a 3 level investment to get a 19-20 range and a 15 level to get 18-20, the crit range would be one of the last things I'd look at if I want to optimize damage.
The thing with crits is that it's a multiplicative effect rather than additive effect, the higher your base damage is, the more the crit damage increases, however at level 3 your damage is too low that the crit doesn't add much, which is why a static additive bonus like +1 damage does more at that point, while at level 15 where you can take advantage of better attacks with the increased crit range, there are also other features at that level that would be more
Although, even if crits would do more damage there's still a problem with reliability. If you crit on easy battles but don't on the boss battles, that would be pretty bad. I like the reliability of other subclasses like Battle Master or Eldritch Knight because you have more control on your damage output depending on how important the battle is, by allocating how much resources you use per battle. So yeah I agree with you, those 2 subclasses are definitely the best overall.
I kinda wish the Champion features had a more Barbarian-like effects, the Champion is supposedly the most buff Fighter and yet the Eldritch Knight has a lot more defense while the Battle Master has a lot more offense, and the Champion isn't even better at the other two's secondary stats
I don't want to go too hard and defend it because from my understanding it doesn't give much. However the arguments used against it here are because it's "boring" and seems to have very little to do with its mechanical effectiveness.
You could easily role play that same thing with battlemaster. Just intentionally choose simpler superiority die and abilities and gradually get more complicated ones at higher levels to show growth. Things like rally, parry, goading attack, or lunging attack to start off as examples
I love the tier list series guys, keep em coming :) Can't wait to see what you and the community think.
I tend to gravitate towards the Echo Knight and Eldritch Knight. I personally give both those subclasses an S. The Rune Knight will give them a run for their money if it has not been nerfed over zealously.
As always thank you for creating this great content every week Kelly and Monty!
Thank you.
@@alexanderthompson7164 Thanks for the well thought out reply. I agree the EK van vary quite a bit. Consistency wise I can see it definitely ranking lower. In terms of potential ceiling quite high.
Honestly, I feel like the Battlemaster's maneuvers feature is so good, it really ought to be part of the baseline Fighter kit. It seems strange to me that none of the other fighter classes get something quite like it. Though I guess the rest of the sub-classes would have to be re-balanced from the ground up if they did that...
Considering what the Class Variant Feature UA did with the Fighter class, I imagine WoTC agrees with the belief that maneuvers should be part of the base kit in some fashion. I don't think the balance would be off if it got 2 maneuvers/1 Die or 2 Dice/1 Maneuver though.
As the other guy mentioned, it is already a UA and I'm confident will make it to tasha's cauldron of everything
It makes the Battlemaster super sexy as a multiclass option. Monks with manuevers are great
If I want to manage resources, I’ll play a wizard or a monk. Superiority Dice feel like 4e to me.
@@lukeporter5028 Comparing the Battle Master to a wizard in terms of resource management isn't really fair or even accurate. The management is negligible at best compared to even a Warlock with its limited Pact Slots.
That aside, what is wrong with a Fighter subclass that has options beyond just hitting things? The class with arguably the most versatility in terms of concept/build potential should be allowed to expand on that.
I’m playing my first fighter in a campaign. At session zero I told the DM I want to play a fighter but I was struggling with a subclass. My DM recommended a Battle Master fighter because he played one once. We’re currently at level 5 and I live to hear the words “roll for initiative”. Battle Master truly lives up to the hype.
Champion: We heard you like fighter, so we put more fighter in your fighter.
What I love with Cavalier is that, instead of getting a new indepentedt feature every now and then, the Cavalier's features enhance every single feature it has given you previously. When you get your level 10 feature it enhances your level 3 feature as you can mark an enemy with your opportunity attack, in addition you stop them in their tracks so you are almost guaranteed to make an attack on them your next turn. Your level 15 feature lets you now make them prone with advantage (assuming you used the marked attack), then unleash your other attacks while they are down. Your level 18 feature lets you use your level 10 feature as many times as you want. In addition there is no limit to the number of creatures you can have marked at a time, only the duration of the mark.
It's really such a great subclass, but is still dependent on other players to be in a good position for it to be used unfortunately
@@Soupdude338 It does recuire a lot of positioning, IMO that is what makes this subclass so very unique from every other class in D&D. You have to look at the map much more tactically and strategise where the choke points are, and where you should be standing in order to delay the boss, mitigate damage from your wizards and rogues, maximise the damage from a fireball without getting hurt, and so much more. I love it.
herrkrabbe just play a bugbear polearm master. You’ll almost always be in range for your abilities to activate.
@@herrkrabbe148 I agree, that's why I love it too.
But that's why it's a B+ or A-
@@Soupdude338 I agree with it being an A
This video came at the perfect time because I just started playing a Fighter character for the first time.
They are solid and not to be underestimated, nice and consistent, lots of options and can be tough as nails and deliver some solid hits, it really can just come down to building them just about however you want and it can work.
They are actually pretty damn flexible.
As good as the Battle Master is, I don’t think it overshadows the other (good) subclass options as much as, for example, the Circle of the Moon Druid does.
Circle of the moon Druid? Where the hell you find that?
@@DUES_EX It’s in the Player’s Handbook.
@@NotYourAverageNothing thnks
I can't wait for you to do this series for monk. It's my favorite martial class in 5e and the subclasses are so varied and interesting. Keep up the great work guys!
P.S. I have been playing a champion fighter for a while that is 17th level now and I love playing him. I like to volunteer to pick locks because I'm a "remarkable athlete" and every time I do the dm facepalms.
🤔 How do you pick the locks? With your warhammer? 😝
No he use star finger
@@bigdream_dreambig That's too big, he uses a greatsword
So much hate for the Champion. Maybe it's the Grognard in me but I can't think of better features than double the fighting styles and triple the crits. I do agree that new players should steer clear. New players should play Circle of the Moon Druids, College of Valor Bards, and Oath of Vengeance Paladins so they can feel super useful and sample a variety of mechanics.
I think the champion fighter is the perfect newbie class
i've been waiting for fighter. one of my favourite classes due to their large versatility for a non caster
I would like to see the Arcane Archer retooled a bit to get more uses of Arcane Shot and/or reworked into a generalist "Arcane Fighter", able to use magical effects on melee weapons and crossbows, too. That would be amazing.
I been playing for 18 years, I LOVE the champion.
Champion and hunter are cooler than they have any right to be
I can’t figure out why you two love crossbows so much. They’re slower, heavier, and shorter ranged. In order to compete with the bows in terms of speed you need a dedicated feat.
It's because the same feat that you're alluding to (Crossbow Expert) allows the character to weaponize their bonus action, giving them an extra shot per turn compared to a bow user. So... I get it from a "min-max" sort of perspective. That said, from a *roleplaying* perspective, using a crossbow is just about the lamest thing that I can imagine. If I'm going for a ranged build, I want a bow.
I absolutely loathe crossbow mastery and PAM. I hate feats that pigeonhole you into a specific weapon.
@@xaviervega468 I feel like you’re looking at them the wrong way. The intention of feet’s like crossbow except is to give character who pick a weaker weapons a boost. It just so happens a weaponized bonus action is crazy strong. The hand cross bow is just worse than the bow in every way without crossbow except.
@@xaviervega468 I don't know about "loathe", but it is frustrating when a feat for a weapon subset offers enough mechanical advantage that when it comes to raw numbers everyone is like "you need to take this feat". Mostly because then in videos like this subclasses that don't cater to that feat get penalized for having a slightly lower max damage potential.
I like making some of my enemy npcs from scratch using character creation and the champion fighter is a great quick-to-build style to give your players a still-threatening enemy or set of enemies.
In defense of the champion fighter, critting twice as often is very powerful! Even though normally you only crit 5% they do make up a decent portion of your average damage output, and doubling that is pretty major especially when you are rolling more dice with a greatsword, or maul. Combine that with getting advantage, maybe a familiar with mage initiate, or reckless attack, or an ally's abilities and you'll be critting 20% of the time on that hit. It also makes for great combos with rogue's sneak attack, paladin smites, brutal critical, or anything else that does bonus damage on hit with extra dice. It's super bland and I'd never play one in a campaign, but that also makes it really easy if I want an npc who is powerful, but easy to manage. The bonus to abilities you're not proficient in is also nice for the initiative boost too which is very rarely boosted at all. Purely mechanically I'd say it's A. Just please don't make me play it! lol.
I think it works best as multiclassed, but it's not usually worth going past third level
@@andyduke6119 yeah I'd agree it's a good multiclass with rogue, barbarian, paladin or even a bladesinger wizard. Or good for the casual gamer who is slowly learning or very new.
@@tadious9415 Or for a floater character, when there are more characters in the party than players at the table. There are no expendable resources to cause arguments between the other players, it's just a point-and-click melee combatant.
I played a Champion fighter the first time I played DnD, and I think it helped a lot. I was very shy, so having such a simple character helped me get more comfortable with the rest of the game. I could roleplay without worrying that I would mess something up and look like an idiot.
Guesses pre-watch:
Arcane Archer: D
Battlemaster: S
Champion: C
Cavalier: C? Maybe B. Not sure. Let's say B.
Cavalier can have some really interesting feat/mount combinations. Don't sleep on it, but yeah, Battlemaster is a Double S tier.
Pretty close. Right order, just slide them all up one starting with Cavalier to A.
Haven't watched it yet but my favorite current character is an arcane archer and it should be a C class, even though I'm enjoying it now that I understand the mechanics of 5e more I can easily make a way better arcane archer
> Oath of Pestilence Paladin
*The Inquisition would like to know your location*
What I hate about Cavalier is that he basically has no connection to horses. Like, dude, if I don't want to be mounted, I'm gonna be the Battle Master!
The hard part with fighter I feel is that there are less sub-class build-arounds and more feat build arounds. You're frequently less interested in the fighter subclass abilities, and more in the base class itself which gets you more feat opportunities, and more attacks to capitalize on them with. If you ignore feats, I'm not sure any of the fighter subclasses are compelling on their own beyond the Battle Master or Eldritch Knight, to encourage you to stick to fighter, as opposed to doing a 2-level dip, or just playing another class entirely.
''A yes, I also play a fighter, I spent three levels to get action surge and the champion subclass for my other class''
"Yo dawg, I heard you like Fighter, so I put more Fighter in your Fighter so you can basic while you basic."
🤔 Sounds like a Champion. 😝
I feel like your assessment of Champion was spot on. It makes the new player feel strong but by the time you access the stronger features you are experienced enough to see how dull it is. Highlighting how much better the other sub-classes perform.
About Champion critical damage, I can give you those number to see how terrible Critical range increase is with Warrior alone. Spoilers: it's approximalty an 10% damage increase with 18-20 critical range. To get the best damage out of that, you should be an Half-Orc so you get an extra weapon damage dice when you crits. Maul and Greataxe are the best with the 1d12 that became 2d12 extra when you crits with an Half-Orc. 2d12 roll 13 on average and will be use for the extra damage you gain when you crits.
20 without advantage => 5% critical chances, (0.05 x 13 = 0.65), you get 0.65 extra average damage per attack.
20 with advantage => 9.75% critical chances, (0.0975 x 13 = 1.3), you get 1.3 extra average damage per attack.
19-20 without advantage => 10% critical chances, (0.1 x 13 = 1.3), you get 1.3 extra average damage per attack.
19-20 with advantage => 19% critical chances, (0.19 x 13 = 1.3), you get 2.47 extra average damage per attack.
18-20 without advantage => 15% critical chances, (0.15 x 13 = 1.95), you get 1.95 extra average damage per attack.
18-20 with advantage => 27.75% critical chances, (0.2775 x 13 = 3.6), you get 3.6 extra average damage per attack.
Without any source of Extra damage dice and with the best scenario (Half-Orc with Greataxe) increasing the critical range increase your average damage per hit by barely 1 damage per hit for each step of critical range you get. Let add more number to see how effective it can be. A Champion Warrior with Greataxe, Great Weapon Master and 20 strength will does 1d12+15 per hit. This is on average 21.5 damage per hit (15+6.5=21.5). With only 20 critical and advantage, you average damage per hit get to 22.8 (21.5+1.3=22.8). In best scenario, 18-20 critical with advantage deal on average 25.1 damage per hit (21.5+3.6=25.1). This is 10% increase damage on average.
Just for FYI, if your DM is nice enough to give you a Flametongue Greatsword as a champion, now we are starting to get some nice number. 2d6 (Greatsword) + 2d6 (Flametongue) + 1d6 (Half-Orc) = 5d6 extra damage on critical = 17.5 damages on average. When you multiple that by your Critical chances with 18-20 range and advantage you get (0.2775 x 17.5 = 4.86) 4.86 average damage per swing. Keep in mind that even with 20 critical and advantage you still get (0.0975 x 17.5 = 1.7) 1.7 average damage per swing. So it's a 3 average damage increase by swing.
Edit: Add the base damage with 20 crits.
You are the min-maxer that most people can't stand. I truly hope you understand that.
That being what it is the Champion is easily an A-tier if only for it's Fighter 3 Multiclass Dip. In fact, it opens up some of the most incredible combinations for damage potential, especially with any class that has on demand damage. Fighter 3 / Paladin X is still going to be one of the most brutal things to get hit with when it lands. Pair it with a Grave Cleric for extra fun.
Speaking of fun, there is legitimately nothing more fun that one-rounding a boss. But yeah, go ahead and stick to the spreadsheet to calculate DP/Swing.
@@JenosIdallian Because I like math and statistics, people didn't like me. Damn, what a world we live in... I could have say that increasing the critical range increase your damage potential just like Dueling Fighting style does, but nobody would have trust me without the math so...
Yeah, with sneak attack or divine smite critical range can be good. But their Tier list wasn't base on that. It base on how it impact the main class and IMO it's just plain bad for a fighter. The only good ability it get is survivor at lvl 18th... Sure if you are lucky or cheat with dices, champion would be good but that's not how you evaluate something that have statistic involve. You need to take into consideration the odds and not just your feeling or experiences. That's why average damage per swing or DPR are the best metric for this evaluation. Otherwise you cannot compare it equally with the others options.
Yes there is something more fun, getting the boss kill without needing to swing at him because you masterbrain...
Sure, I will stick to my mathematic and statistics because anyway 50% of DnD is base on that and if you want to create balanced contents, you need to understand how it work...
@@Nyarlathoteps1 I don't think you understand. Most of the time it's not what you say, it's how it's said that conveys a message. Your message reads like you have a superiority complex on why everything about the class is bad. In fact, it's the same as someone shoehorning seven syllable words into their sentences to try and make everyone else around them feel stupid. I've been a DM for 20 years. I don't need to know the DPR/DPS/DP-anything to create a balanced encounter, because that's going to largely vary based on the players in your group.
If you have a bunch of cunts minmaxing, playing as much to the kick-in-the-door style as they possibly can, that's going to require a far different set of balancing standards than for a group that would rather roleplay a class they like, rather than one at peak efficiency. I understand this is probably a crazy concept for you, but not everyone needs to overcompensate to have fun.
Lastly, one of the things people addicted to spreadsheets never take into account are two of the most important things in the game. Environmental factors, and team synergy. Literally anyone with the most basic and rudimentary understanding of math and statistics can put together a spreadsheet based on available feats and data, and come out with something that has the highest damage over a given day. Not everyone can relax and have fun with a game that's supposed to tap your imagination.
@@JenosIdallian I completly understand you but you think that I'm something that I'm not. You think I'm a Min/Maxer that only think about DPR and how effective my character could be in a given situation when I'm not. That's why I state that DnD is only 50% Math and Stats because the rest is a mix of Roleplay, group synergie, etc... I'm sorry if you think that I'm a selfish narcissist, it might be because english was my second language or just the way I write. But my point is just showing with Math and Statistic why this abilities is bad in my opinion.
We are here in a situation where we need to evaluate how effective an specialisation's ability is because it's the objective of this Tier Rankings video. If this Tier list would have been about how interested this class is to Roleplay that would have been an other story, but it's not. Sadly this specialisation have NOTHING about others and it add nothing interesting Roleplay wise. All the ability you gain with Champion is about yourself in combat and the athlete bonus (Improved/Superior Critical, Remarkable Athlete, 1 more Fighting Style and Survivor). So it can be evaluate easilly with DPR to see how effective it can be with or without this specialisation because anyway all that specialisation give is about combat.
And this is where everthing start to hurt IMO, Champion only has abilities that increase how he perform in combat and is main one about Critical wasn't great at doing what it should do. It barely increase you damage potential and on top of that you didn't control it. You have stated yourself that it is good with Paladin because you could use your Divine Smite when you achieve Critical, but this is possible because you could control when you Divine Smite after knowing you have achieve a critical. In this situation, it's not the Critical Range that is strong but the way you could use Divine Smite after knowing that you Crits. If you change the rule and you should call your Divine Smite before rolling D20 you notice that it became really bad. IMO it's a proof that Critical Range increase wasn't a good ability to increase your damage potential. It's a nice have like for the Hexblade curse, but the curse isn't good because of critical on 19-20 but because you add your proficiency bonus to damage against the cursed target.
At the end, more I read your comments and more I feel that you have a problem about the Tier rankings and comparing class/subclass together. If it's the cases, keep in mind that it's not because someone like to Min/Max, that he is bad at Roleplaying and couldn't have fun with others. The important is adapting you playstyle to the group you are playing with and having fun together!
14:11 specifically melee attacks, in fact ranged attacks get a disadvantage
What's nice though is you can trip target and then move onto a different target with extra attack/action surge. And your bar/melee buddies get advantage
For Cavalier you can also take the mounted combatant feat and make a point of riding your horse. You can get one of the defensive foghting styles, use a shield, full plate and a lance. With mounted combatant, your mount will be hard to kill and you'll have advantage on most attacks, you'll have amazing damage with the lance, you don't have to worry about the possible lost movement speed on plate armor thanks to you using your horse's mobility, not your's, and because your mount can use it's mobility actions while you attack, you can be fighting while also giving enemies disadvantage, or getrinf away without forcing an opportunity attack, and close distance well. Pair them together and you can have a very tanky and high damage fighter that is hard to hit, and can protect his teammates forcing enemies to hit him first, but forcing them to miss most of the time.
Can't wait to see samurai on the next one, I've been playing one recently and I was geniuenly surprised by how deceptively good it can be.
simply put, it has some simplicity that the champion offers but much less mundane than it. and while it's not as indepth as cavalier or much less so battlemaster, effective use of fighting spirit can do wonders, I even managed to stay alive for around 4 consecutive rounds in melee range with the boss on death's door thanks to some luck but also tactical use of fighting spirit for the temp hp and the free advantage on attacks to finish them off with massive damage.
loved the video, can't wait for the next!
My first Fighter (in draft) is a Samurai for similar reasons: I wanted more flavor than with a subclass like the Champion, but nothing as complex as something like the Battle Master. I hope I chose well, because my character concept is now closely intertwined with the subclass (and no, not stereotypical Asian tropes).
@@bigdream_dreambig mine wasn't the case either but as is with most fighters your fun is going to depend on the character themselves, who they are and why are they the way they are. not how much damage they can deal. hope you enjoy the character as much as I enjoy mine. oh and my samurai was far from the namesake it's based on too lol.
A simple Champion using a kitted out crossbow is probably better overall than the Arcane Archer, considering more crits happening.
I like my ancestral Barbarian for the same play style as Cavalier and it’s better at the damage mitigation, but worse at control without feats
fighter get loads of feats shouldn't be a problem
Champion is a D tier because it doesn't meaningfully improve the class and it encourages crit fishing, which is a total newbie trap. Change my mind.
Kinda disappointed that you threw your rule about only looking at pure mechanical strength out the window when talking about the champion. Not that I disagree it’s simple and bland, but it’s a strong and versatile subclass that makes the fighter much better at all the things they want to do. And as for recommending it to new players, that’s entirely separate from how good it objectively is. Loved the entire video except that, and even then I would have enjoyed your harsh but fair opinions were it not for the fact this series is meant to be a more detached mechanical analysis.
If I recall, mathematically it does worse than the battle master and it just has less options.
There are certain builds that can take advantage of it, but for the most part they are better built elsewhere
They do not have the rule of "looking on pure mechanical strength". The fun of playing the subclass is considered too, and Champion has little of it. All you do in combat is throw some more dice with more often crits.
They do not consider roleplay, yes, but that only means the part of it that is not baked by some abilities. How do you compare the roleplay capability of, for example, Cavalier and Samurai? But if the subclass has some ability that is roleplay-based, they do consider it.
@@Soupdude338 On average yes the battlemaster will do better damage. But there are few things scarier than a half-orc champion with GWM, a greataxe or greatsword, and going on a crit streak. Multi-class 3 levels into Barbarian (Berserker and Wolf totem are my preferred choices for damage) and it can get REALLY stupid when you reckless attack every strike.
@@xaviervega468 so yeah with the exact right multiclass you can crit efficiently and get good damage. But for most builds, it's just not as good, and even there I would rather have an optimized battle master build because they can do things a champion can't and still do equivalent damage.
Champion is great with paladin and rogue too. Its hardly one specific combo. Champions also excel at higher levels where their non-dependance on resources is great for long dungeon crawls or time-sensitive missions where you can't just rest over and over. BM is way better at low levels though, which is the majority of campaigns.
Whenever I think of the Champion subclass, I always picture Carrot from the Terry Pratchet book "Guards Guards!"
Carrot is textbook D&D Champion, which is why I love him 😁
Carrot is an amazing character, as so many of Sir Terry's characters tend to be.
Yooo, that T-shirt is metal AF!
I like Rune, Echo and Eldritch knight.
EDIT: Cavalier is also fun.
Calling it now before the next video: purple dragon knight is lowest. Seeing their opinion on champion only reinforces my notion.
That Demogorgon Shirt Though!
*Purple Dragon Knight is D, right?*
Dude, PDK is like, ZZZ tier.
@@aldoesagood5316 yeah, like what is it even supposed to be?
@@aldoesagood5316 I actually edited it from Z, to F, to D because of their format. That's why it's edited.
Echo Knight is going to come up as pretty amazing as well. Can't wait till they review that one... Multiple attackers, shift around map, give yourself advantage with your echo fighting your target... so good.
I don't think they will given that they only review official content and EGW isn't technically official.
@@GhimyDaCheese It is 100% official. And if they looked at the Circle of Spores from Ravinica, a MTG setting, I don't see any reason they wouldn't do it for Wildemount.
@@GhimyDaCheese That's true, but it is still a published source. I thought they meant "official" like published books and not UA
@@Ryuflare1 one simple reason. They're going by alphabetical order yet they didn't rank blood hunter subclasses.
@@GhimyDaCheese Because Blood Hunter isn't part of EGTW. It's a separate thing that was originally published on DM'S Guild, so they own the publishing rights to it.
I love that Monty is genuinely offended that Kelly gave the Arcane Archer a B.
It has just occurred to me that each fighter subclass should have a small number of maneuvers available to them with the d6 superiority and the battlemaster having access to all of them with dice improvement. Hopefully 6e will run with this.
Still say Arcane Archer should have been a sub class for the Ranger, when this came out Rangers needed the bump and already had magic built in.
This
I'm playing a battlemaster cross-bow expert right now and it is a blast
Check out UA 2019 they added Snipe as an option
It's actually neat that this video came out when it did. I 've been tinkering away at an Arcane Archer revision myself.
As is, it's not... bad, but it just doesn't compare to either the Battle Master or Gunslinger. The fact that you only get 2 uses of Arcane Shot, ever, is not great. However, it's doubly bad when you realize that most Shot effects only last 1 round (Not you, Grasping Shot. You're amazing!). And, it's triply bad when you realize these shots don't even scale until 18th level! Who thought this was a good idea? Like, imagine if your Superiority Dice didn't go up to a d10 until level 18.
Those are my thoughts. The following is me talking about the changes I'd make if anyone is interested!
For my changes, I decided to keep most of the subclass the same, while really only focusing on 'fixing' the Arcane Shot options (Again, except for you, Grasping Shot. You're great!). I made it where most ranged weapons can use Arcane Shot (bows, crossbows, daggers, darts, etc.), the shots scale at 10th *and* 18th level, I extended most of the durations to around 1 minute with the ability for targets to end the effect early with successful saves or checks. If the AA only gets 2 shots, I wanted to give them more bang for their buck.
Thank you to anyone who took time to read this! Much appreciated!
I like giving them Arcane Shots = INT modifier (min of 2) and a duration of rounds = INT modifier (min of 1) if it states 1 round of duration. Feels rewarding for people who don't go with the bare minimum INT. I actually like the limitation of bows as both a flavour thing and a push for me making more intresting bows.
@@AlexisVolk97 I considered giving them more shots, but that feels like treading on Battle Master territory. Plus, with some of the Shots I came up with, it might become OP to have more shots.
Also, there is incentive for AA's to have high INT as it affects their saving throw DC.
Regardless, thank you for the feedback!
@@aldoesagood5316
Everything sounds very good, but to me, it looks like Arcane Crossbowman wouldn't be as neat a concept and extending it to thrown weapons is beyond good and evil (though both can sure be fun if they do work).
Personally I opened it up to them learning all options at lvl3 and shot number relies on your fighter proficiency bonus. So it scales in shot count as you level, but you're encouraged to be crafty with all of your options available to you.
I'd personally rather you creatively use the crappier shot options once in a while than to simply never touch them and spam the same two because they're stronger.
@@Heylow Brilliant
Waiting for that Paladin tier list guys!
Awesome content as always.
I want Redemption to be S.
I know it won’t. But I want it. :(
@@villainvoice5143 I'm on the same boat for Oath of the Ancients, but we both know the one at tier S haha.
Variant human fighter at level one taking martial adept, and the superior technique fighting style (UA class feature variants) which will probably be published in Tasha’s, you can get three maneuvers and 2 superiority dice at d6 level 1. Additionally, when you hit level 3 they upgrade to d8’s and you keep your original dice and maneuvers. Also in class feature variants is a free fighter feature that allows you to swap out a maneuver for another one called Maneuver Versatility, making battlemaster even more flexible. Taking these at level 1 can give you so much more mileage from battlemaster, and giving you your subclass at level 1 essentially, making you a battlemaster through and through.
Edit 1: Another cool thing to do with battlemaster, if you pair it with mastermind rogue, you can spend a few minutes to learn their entire loadout in terms of attributes, hit points, armor class, etc.
Edit 2: one last cool thing, you can go college of swords bard as well, giving you blade flourishes that are based off of your inspiration dice. This is a fun multiclass for battlemaster. Using a superiority die for evasive footwork followed by a defensive flourish is incredibly strong and really fun to whip out while in danger.
"A lot of the [Battle Master] maneuvres work with ranged attacks [...] you're not locked into anything." Springs to mind when the sword and board fighter decided to go for a ranged attack to knock a flying creature out of the sky. Where was that from? Oh yea, Dungeons of Drakkenheim. Honestly, Joe showcased very well how powerful the Battle Master can be.
Edit: Also, regarding the Cavalier, if you make it to 18th level, the lvl 10 and 18 features together, along with Polearm Master and Sentinel can allow you to shut down an entire group of enemies, conmpletely preventing them from moving. Sentinel is somewhat redundant, but it doesn't hurt. And at 18th level, a Fighter can have so many feats it shouldn't be a problem.
Personally I believe the champion subclass is an A tier cause I played one recently, and I was a variant human who had sharpshooter, crossbow expert, the piercer feat and a magic crossbow and I was a powerhouse on the battlefield and got to role play him as the punisher which was pretty fun
They very briefly touched on this. You were a powerhouse because of sharpshooter, crossbow expert etc. not because of the champion. What Champion adds beyond what you already had from the rest isn't really that much. In my eyes, champion is far, far more effective as a dip class, taking a few levels to grab the improved criticals, along with the great early level fighter abilities.
@@Nstanier I'm beginning to think that this is the secret strength of the Champion subclass. It really allows other options to shine more brightly than they would in other classes with more features. Customization is difficult in some cases because you need to use particular weapons or certain tactics, but the Champion takes everything and makes it a little bit better.
Love your videos, but Champion is clearly D-tier. Everyone fawns over critical hits, without ever analyzing the math. A champion with a great sword and a 19-20 crit rage, instead of 20, does an extra 7 damage on average every 20 attacks... so it's +0.35 damage/attack. The expanded crit range is a trap ability... just like brutal critical on the barbarian.
I love these guides. I don’t have a lot of experience with 5e and these guides have helped me find character ideas that mesh well with what I want to play in upcoming games. Thanks guys, keep up the good work!
The Champion subclass suffers from having it's good ablities coming to late. That second fighting stlye needed to come at 7th lvl, and the hit point recovery coming up at 10th then a significant capstone ability
If the champion’s thing was supposed to be “ehh, activation is hard. Let’s passive” I might have said just give them expertise in athletics and acrobatics as well as proficiency to initiative, con saves and wisdom saves. Boom. Simple. Solid.
I'd love to push the 7th level ability to join the improved crit at lv 3 to feel substantial. Remarkable Athlete is just the most lackluster ability to get so deep into the class.
The Arcane Archer is so criminally underpowered. All the abilities are cool, but you can almost never use them. It's like being a Champion 99% of the time.
my only problem with the A.A. they should get more and more often. recharge on short reat
AA really, really needs to work more similarly to the Battlemaster. If its Arcane Shots were as usable as the BM's Maneuvers, it would be a really stylish and tactical subclass.
Champion becomes an s tier if you pair it with a paladin and smite on crits. Paladins are built to fish for critical hits and 5 levels of champion with 5 levels of say vengeance paladin can action surge with 2 extra attacks on each action and if you have advantage (which you can get from your vengeance enmity ability bonus action) you will average over 1 crit on 6 attack dice on one turn giving you an average of a 125-175 (range vary wildly you can stack over 200) on a single turn if you landed only 1 crit and half that on subsequent turns, the paladin offers much needed flavor to an otherwise boring single subclass. This build comes online as early as level 6 and has sweet spots and 8 and 10 and past that i prefer to lean into the paladin for bigger smites with upcasts but do whatever! Your character already has PHAT 1 shot potential and is easy and fun to roleplay as that hero among heroes "ill lead the charge" archetype.
Cavalier can really excel with reach weapons given the extra range at which they can punish enemies
I feel like AA gets a lot of shit cause battle master is just broken, it's the most versatile and most powerful subclass fighters have. On its own AA is a fun, very versatile,and a good damage dealer with a lot of situational "keys" that disarm roadblocks for the party. Any AA that has dodged and encounter with banishment or used shadow arrow into action surge with a party of ranged allies going after them can tell you of the power they wield.
Imo the maneuvers have no business recharging on a short rest. Even when playing other classes with a BM on the party, his strength is kinda oppressive in comparison to every other player at the table (or most) specially between LVL 3-5, it's just insane and few can match at that point.
Also one of the things AA and BM area actually matched is in terms of damage they do until they have to short rest (with the BM doing more effects because you can use maneuvers more), with I believe 4d8s. Which is interesting because a lot of ppl complain that you never use your core ability, but in fact when you use it you truly use it, and the effects are honestly very good. And it still recharges on a SS, tell the warlock that's a deal-breaker...
I think this is a case where I just don't agree with the dudes, they used a wierd and very lawyery argument to make it C and it's a B for sure (which in the right setting as we know can be an S, perfect description of AA)
TL DR
2 shots per short rest is good
4 to 6 superiority per short rest is broken
can’t wait to see what will the rank of the Echo Knight be
I am in such agreement that new players deserve more credit than the Champion gives them. It's more basic than a pumpkin spice latte. The system already spent two levels basically teaching you how to play the game already. Maybe it's because Pathfinder/3.5 is my 'home system' but the Champion, while it's not BAD by any stretch, is almost insulting in its simplicity.
How about a segment on the best double dips when making a three class character?
You know if you allow feat a champion can be a better version of a cavalier...
Just take mounted combat which is essential even as cavalier (because otherwise yojr mount will be super squishy and it also gives advantage for ypur attacks) and sentinel. You will be a cavalier with HP regen and better crit range
At lv6 your champion will have all the feature of a lv10 cavalier...
The only difference is the very good cavalier lv18 feature which is very good as defender, but end level campaign are very very rare anyway
Same apply for any warrior subclasses lol
Well Thanks! I had dismissed the Cavalier, much like Kelly i had misread the Cavalier as requiring a horse to be effective. Looking at it now yeh its an awesome tank subclass. Wish it had survivability baked in but then it would be *the* tank class not just a good option.
Battlemaster was originally the base idea for fighters when they were playtesting for 5e, it should have stayed that way its so good and versatile, basically flavor is the only reason to choose any other, but always feels like your missing something.
The arcane archer is the biggest disappointment *ever*, i read it and was like why would you create this, its basically a battlemaster with a ton of water added. its the same mechanic maneuvers on attacks... but less maneuvers, with less weapon options, with less damage, less maneuvers per short rest... W T F
I love this channel & I'm about to offer some criticism
I don't understand the hang-up on Crossbow Expert. I mean who cares?! Why are you even talking about crossbows on a bow & arrow fighter?
This section could have been scripted better to reduce drag. You could have cut that section out completely.
Arcane Archer should have been something in between battlemaster and e.k. battlemaster starts with 4 uses per short rest and eventually 6 per and e.k get 2 per long rest but increase up to 11 spells per day. So maybe start with 2 per short rest that increases to 3 per at 11ish and 4 at 18ish.
Add the overlooked crossbows back into class. Shouldn't be overpowered but gets closer to the other subclasses.
Another comment says WOTC revised the revision, crossbows were not over looked, they were intentionally left off.
@@CheefChaos yeah Mike mearls said it was an oversight and jeremy crawford said it wasn't. So it seems it was intentionally supposed to be a POS Z tier class no one was ever supposed to play. They are fun 2 shots a day.
You are totally betraying your own criteria with the Champion, I agree that it is a "boring" sublcass but it is fing strong by itself, it has a great potential for multiclassing and for taking feats.
There are other classes that you have rated really high and many times you pair that power with your enjoyment, and in many cases I hate those subclasses because they make super strong options in easy ways that I find unappealing.
LOVED community rankings additions for your discussions. The more you add to diversify your informative discussions, the better your videos become!
05:45 You saved the video. If Shadow arrow was not mentioned in the best arrows the rest of the video and the next would be irrelevant. Shadow and enfeebling are borderline broken.
Disagree. The champion fighter is way better on the table than on the page.
Considering the flavour of Fighters as the class specifically good at beating people up in a skilled and proficient way (as opposed to the Barbarians brite force), and the uniqueness of the ability, I really think maneuvers should just be part of the Fighter class kit.
BattleMaster could still have the other flavor abilities, and could augment the superiority dice, but base fighters should be good at tripping and disarming opponents.
Plague Bearer Paladin. Every US evangelist, preaching against wearing masks
Shadow Monk. Butler raised and trained by an organization to police and spy on their noble house.
Get the politics out of here please
@@audiorage82407 snowflake
There is no need to say don't play cavalier as thanks to roll 20 you would have a map for online play. IRL you also are going to be using a map. the champion shouldn't be ranked by "being bored" since it is said by you guys that you are not ranking rp but by mechanics. So mechanically speaking it is good, which by the way if it lacks special things you can do just add feats to make it interesting.
im here so early hopefully you guys see my comment, love yall
Polearm master also works with quarterstaff if you want the feeling of a less murdery defender type character.
I am a new player, began this summer with my older brother and a few friends.
Started as a fighter, and whent straight for Battle Master when the option was open and I have been having a blast
Check out 'Unearthed Arcana' for extra moves, specifically 2019 quarter 4
I do love playing a half orc champion who does 3d12 on a crit with an extra attack on a crit from great weapon master.
I'm build for crits.
Champion being a B because its "boring" feels wrong. If they are strong but just aren't "cool" then that doesn't really take away from their effectiveness. Feels like a big load of BS,e specially considering RP isn't being taken into account and all being "cool" or "flashy" is is RP, not mechanical advantage
I think the main problem with the Champion is that, unlike subclasses not just for the Fighter but literally every other class, all of its abilities are passive and need a lot of help to come online to match the damage output of other, better subclasses.