I knew some people doing research on aphantasia in a lab I was a part of in my undergrad. Some of the things that stuck out to me: - Many people with aphantasia report having vivid dreams, suggesting that there must be something about being awake that inhibits that process of visual imagery - This is very clearly a spectrum. Some people have no imagery, some see vague shapes or shadowery imagery, and others have very vivid images. - The object rotation test may not be a very good measure of phantasia as it is possible that other sensory modalities are being used to solve it (some people have described solving that problem through a very vivid somatosensory/proprioceptive imagination).
Good points, especially the last one. People describe all different strategies for mental rotation, whether they're aphantasic or not. Maybe they're rotating them in a different sensory modality...
"Vivid" dreams does not actually indicate they visualized anything while dreaming. When you tell someone with aphantasia to visualize something - to THEM they do. They "visualize" (imagine) the conceptual representation of that thing. Its not until you compare specific cases between people that they realize theit "visualization" is different. So maybe dreaming is conceptual and not using i ages in their mind, which to THEM could still be interpreted as "vivid".
Yes. I don't have aphantasia proper, but I do definitely have some degree of it. And this give rise to these very weird things about my cognition. So for example I can often imagine an object or recollect a scene, and yet I cannot tell you what the colors are. It's not that I didn't see some kind of image in my mind, I did. And it wasn't in black and white, it was definitely in colors. But I still often cannot tell you those colors. And even weirder is when this kind of unclarity relates to other features of an image, like size and shapes and stuff. It's like I often have a kind of "sketch" rather than a full-blown image in my mind. But it's unlike any real world sketch you could actually produce in the real world because it's often lacking details that you simply cannot get away from producing in a real-world image. And obviously I rarely recall or imagine anything in moving pictures, and absolutely not anything that takes more than a few seconds. I can visualize in moving pictures (for a few seconds per go) if I really try, but it's really difficult and taxing for my brain to do so I prefer not to. And that really makes it weird that when I dream it can often be so very visually convincing in a way that my waking imagination is completely unable to imitate. But it just occurred to me that maybe that plays a part in why I tend to so completely forget my dreams almost immediately when I wake up. That task about shapes being the same shape from different angles. No I don't see a moving picture in my head to figure it out. But I do have a kind of sense of 3-D space, which is sort of what I use for such questions. So I have a kind of spatial "movie" for that sense of shapes and position, but I don't see that stuff, it's not a visual thing. It seems like it's more about my mind saving energy. I use these more primal 3-D-space sense. instead of translating back and forth between the visual and the spatial, I take in the visual and translate it into spatial and do my spatial movies in my mind and then spit back the result, preferably without having to translate it back to visual because it takes more effort. In this case the question is rather why more visual people be so determined to perform a movie in their head when that's just extra calculations that don't need to be there.
I feel like I solve it intellectually, like perhaps I would be less likely to walk away not consciously knowing there was an additional jutting cube on the left side, where as other solvers of the problem may be able to never specifically think about the structure, and simply rotate it for the answer.
I have no ability to visualize things in my head. I'm so envious of everyone else! I used to think the term "picturing something in your mind" was just a hypothetical saying.
everyone Ive ever talked to about this that claims to have it misunderstands that we dont see it the same way we really see and actually do visualize things exactly the same.
So i have mind blind aphantasia,.I just want to let other people know if you also have it, to make sure you have lots of photos of those close to you. I recently lost my parents and I struggle to picture their faces, which I felt ashamed and frustrated about for some time until I found good photos of them both. Good luck
Yeah I can't picture peoples faces in my mind. I can create a sort of "feeling" of what they are like. Their smile, their personality, what it's like to look at them. But I can't literally see their faces in my mind. I'm quite good at remembering people by their faces though. Like I recognize people when I see them. I'm much better at that than remembering names of short time acquaintances.
I’m sorry for your loss. But just curious you had to “find” pictures of them? It’s 2024 so that’s shocking that you didn’t have easily accessible pictures of them
@@cadenelson891 I am from the older gen, didn't have a camera phone growing up in the 80's then I moved away for work so didn't have all the time to see them. Plus I didn't give it much thought as I just didn't think about the consequences (it will never happen to me thinking!).
Tbf, even those of us who dont have aphantasia need photos for that purpose. Maybe it's just me, or maybe I'm on some aphantasia spectrum, but the images in my mind are fleeting. Not clear and steady like looking at a photo or a video, but more like glimpses that that never let you take in the full picture. Older memories become vaguer and people's faces become more akin to abstract ideas, sensations or partial images.
I have aphantasia, yet have had a successful career as a visual artist. When I close my eyes, I see nothing at all. When I'm designing something, it starts as a verbal description in my head that gets more and more elaborate the more intricate or detailed it gets. I do have vivid, visual dreams though, and an incessant inner dialogue. I envy that some can see things in their minds visually, even if I can't begin to imagine what that must be like!
I do a decent amount of 3d modelling as a hobby, and for me at least it comes down to "vibes-based" design (which I can do easily and immediately) vs. "planned out" design (getting a complete picture in your head and then recreating it, which I can't do at all. And as for dreams, it always feels like they're visual, but I realize a lot of them is just auditory and proprioceptive (where I can feel how my body feels and the feedback I would receive from touch/pressure/muscle tension and pushback/etc.) and for whatever reason my brain is just totally ok with not having visuals while acting as if they're there.
@@Farlayy Remember, yes, but not visually. It would be like sitting at your desk and then the lights go out and it's pitch black. You could remember roughly where items on your desk are even if all you saw was black.
When I close my eyes, even in a totally dark room with blindfold on, (I've tried - use the blindfold regularly for hemisync) I see a sea of glowing specks, perhaps millions of them, too small to focus on & they seem to pop in & out in milliseconds. Note these are not the 'flares' (phosgenes?) people talk about. If I focus a bit I see them eyes open as well - it's like a transparent fog of glowing specks between my eyes & what I am looking at. Also if I focus, there seems to be 3 or 4 tiny lines (also flashing on & off) right in the centre where the perceptual focus is. And yes, I'm also aphantasic - see post above here.
what type of artist are you? it's easy to imagine someone with aphantasia painting landscapes, or something from a reference, but it'd be interesting to know if you could do concept art or drawing from imagination in general?
I found out during a therapy session that I had aphantasia. My therapist told me to imagine something, and I got frustrated over people always saying that as if I'm meant to see pictures in my goddamn head. Turns out that's exactly what some people do. We ended up doing the apple test as well, which colour it was, what kind of table was it, what happens when it hits the ground. I visualised nothing. As an avid reader, it absolutely ruined me for a few weeks, knowing that people had the ability to visualise the story they're being told, the locations and the people that inhabit them. It's truly surreal. I made my peace with it not long after, realising my inner monologue would do more heavy lifting. I'd have to describe scenarios or things in excrutiating detail to "visualise" it, but it would still be words inside my head, and not pictures. I think it has helped me develop a more logical way of thinking over the years, although I would love to try the grass on the other side. Another tidbit that may be entirely personal and/or unrelated, but psychedelics (mushrooms especially) provide me with no visual hallucinations. I've never seen distortions, colour shifts or any of the funky stuff you'd expect alongside a trip.
@@breebisshop7325 Same for me but it wasn't always like that. I only had vivid visual hallucinations when I took shrooms for the first time. Years later just some funny moving patterns. Now nothing at all. And my imagination is also not nearly as vivid anymore as it was when I was younger. I could listen to music in my head so clearly that I didn't need to annoy anyone. I could imagine all kinds of stuff. I think it's just something one needs to practice. Use it or lose it. About the hallucinations from psychedelics though, I guess it's the opposite: Use it too often and lose the magic.
I would have gone insane if I lacked the ability to visualise things. My childhood was painful enough and not being able to escape it would have sucked.
@@tannerblake7745 Basically because it shows that conciousness is a separate thing from the mental objects itself. Also, you could say that conciousness has some dimensionality to it: things enter this virtual space, but they're not the space itself.
I have hyperphantasia. Until a few years ago I thought everyone visualized the same way. The strengths for me are often process based, where I can run physical simulations in my head backwards and forwards fairly rapidly. I often solve mechanical problems at work, and coworkers think I "got lucky", but the reality is that I did the same problem-solving anyone would only I did it in my head. Some people can memorize texts/statistics/formulas much easier than I can, and choose that skillset to follow processes. I visualize in 3D. Pros and cons to the entire spectrum. Mutual respect is key.
again, not a real condition. you are just a normal person with a normal brain except you use it. most people are extremely lazy thinkers. you're focusing, nothing more
I have aphantasia, and the way he's describing it is close to how I feel. He mentioned often times we can do the task and just not be aware of it. I've described my memories as a weird two party hive-mind where anytime I need to recall something, the memory guy goes and watches it, and I inherently know everything about it - but I never see the memory. I can only tell you im thinking about it. I know it's there. To expand on this, I feel like it's an autopilot adaptation. I don't often need really think about the task... I just stare at it and then an answer appears. It's so bizaare to put into words.
Do you ever meditate? As someone who have vivid imagination, meditation is such a chore but rewarding, if I manage to observe my feelings, inner talk, and mental images. I thought someone with aphantasia would have advantage to experiencing emptiness and decategorization, thus enter the zen state of 'common mind' where you could be enlighten by doing everyday task (satori).
@@blizzard1198 That would be too far, just experiencing the here and the now without mental disturbance. I tend to get lost when day dreaming or even when imagining a concept from the written passage. I find it hard to not get distracted by this active imagination, when I want to write story from previous scenery, my mind become dull, I cant put the right words, and feel exhausted.
Honestly as a hyperphantasic, I find aphantasia just as fascinating and hard to understand. Like y'all can conceptualize all of these things about an object without picturing it? That's amazing! I cannot separate the two in my head at all
When asked to visualize an apple, my mind sees no apple. My mind remembers that there are red apples, green apples etc. Maybe someone took a bite out of it, maybe there is a worm sticking out of it. All scenarios that I have looked at previously and remembered. I can invent any kind of apple I want using descriptors that I have memorized, but I can't see it.
Im the exact same thing too, but for me, its like i draw it quickly in my head. I cannot see it when opening and closing my eyes, but I have a mental image of it. Not vivid, but can like, draw it? Its weird for me. I have verg good imagination, but not vivid imagery. Which is weird. My mind is excellent at like, re-drawing things i used to see / remember. I can imagine it well, but never like, visual it when opening or closing my eyes. Its like i cannot actually see it there, but imagine like its there and draw it. When i try to, lets say, multiply 23x48, my mind draws them fast, its like: ok so that's 48, under it 23, and i calculate it. I can see my writing, but not in a vivid way. It's like, i "imagine" i am actually seeing it in a vivid way, but i dont. But when i am calculating it, i forget so quickly what were the numbers im multiplying.
I realized I have aphantasia mid-last year. The way he said "I think these people don't lack mental imagery, they lack the conscious experience of mental imagery" REALLY resonated with me. "Mental blindness" I think is an appropriate description of this condition. The way I've described it to others is that it's similar to the movie Inception, and the concept it establishes of dreaming in layers. It's almost like I'm thinking about visualizing. My thoughts all feel a layer deep, below this mental blindness. When I try to visualize something, an activity I have to do daily for work, it's like I'm thinking about the concept of visualizing. Like the visualization is happening and I am aware that it is happening, but I can't see it, I just know the resulting data. In the same way that those who are visually blind have their other senses heightened, I feel almost like I perceive these visualizations through other mental senses if that makes any sense. It's like complex thoughts, visualizations, and forms come to me through knowing and not through seeing. This does mean however that "mental noise" and distraction can get in the way at times. If I'm going through something, have anxiety, or I'm in an environment that makes me unable to focus it takes me longer to get this data or could possibly prevent me from getting it at all. I've also realized, if anyone else has aphantasia and is reading this, that these "mental senses" can be trained through practice. Certain types of meditation have helped a lot.
I think i got it! The imagination process happens in your head, but you can only see the resulting information and not the process itself. Kinda like seeing a description of an image, but not the image itself.
Do you also get "different sensations"? I have tried to indulge more in my fantasy and try to visualize scenarios, places etc. The closer I "feel" to conscious visualisation of imagery, the more of a tingling, energy rushing sensation I get in my forehead/top of my head. Has anyone else experienced this? (Also the closest I get to visualizing is really imagining that I am there. Like in a dream. It wont really work if I just say to myself "picture a horse in your mind")
Aphantasia and lack of an inner monologue have made me wonder if at least some aspects of what we call consciousness are just the screen on which the movie of our subconscious mind plays, in a manner of speaking.
After years of observation, ignorant of the aphantasic condition of my partner coupled with no inner dialogue, a few GIANT advantages were present. 1 Fast thinking, reading, and typing (made me feel as if my own intelligence was slow). 2 A swift recovery from stress (especially after a fight, was crazy making but honest). 3 Being in the moment. 4 Luck 5 Extreme charisma 6 No hesitation. She felt lesser because of it, but in actuality, it is her greatest strength. She explained how she remembered in summaries, would read by absorbing the information rather than hearing it in her head, and she was extremely smart. The main disadvantages were "out of sight out of mind" being way more relevant. She thought completely different, faster, and intuitively. It was no facade for a subconscious image renderer.
Being an artist with aphantasia is really hard sometimes, since I can *think* of a pose idea that I want for something, but I can't actually... put that on a canvas, if that makes sense. I can think of it, and how I wish for the limbs to be positioned, but I can't actually visualize it, which makes it hard to actually.. put it on paper. That's why I like to take pictures of myself doing poses resembling the idea I had in mind and use them as references. Total life saver
Honestly, I think aphantasia made me a better artist in a way. I totally agree with what you said, and it does get so annoying. But if you think about it, being forced to use a reference every time I draw meant my drawins always had good anatomy. And by studying real life your art will be constantly improving.
it's really weird, i'm an artist who has the opposite problem, i see images when i listen to music/ hear sounds/ associate sounds with colour and images, i can imagine anything in any particular position, and it helps me with my art to be able to see a 2d character as if they were 3d. tho my best friend sees absolutely nothing. i asked her about it and she describes thinking and imagining like "reading a script of events" but not seeing any words or hearing them, it's so bizzare
I have strong Aphantasia. While awake, I have no imagery associated with thought. However I have the ability to conceptualize heavily. As a child, I thought when people said they had a "Mental Picture" of something it was only an analogy. I have extremely vivid dreams, so I have the ability to Imagine. Perhaps there is a lack of connectivity between the concious and unconcious mind. I am a visual artist, and can draw from memory, with accuracy, but not visualize things internally. I would love to speak with anyone who is interested and discuss further.
I’m like that too. My dreams are more real than reality, and while I can’t draw or paint well, I create textile art with a good eye for colors that contrast well. I’m 67, and just realized in the last year that I can’t visualize while awake, but I can construct an idea of any object in question, while “visual field” is black.
Very interesting! Its funny that youre an artist. For me, theres was a time when i liked to draw, but since i can imagine things, my motivation to draw dimishes, because i get satisfied in imagining an image, instead of bringing it to life. Can you imagine other sense modalities, like sounds, smells, and tastes? Another aphantasiac here said she could
I have total blind aphantasia. Only found out about it several years ago. I also thought “mental images” were a figment of speech. I think with an internal monologue and thus can hear audio sounds/ music internally. I rarely remember my dreams but when I do they are vivid and I have experienced several lucid dreams before. I also used to make art and preferred doing very detailed drawings and paintings, possibly because of lack of internal imagery.
Can you draw from written or verbal descriptions? I would want to visualize the entire drawing before starting. Even with a verbose description of something very complex, I'd want to visualize the whole thing at a high level, sketch that first, then integrate detail as I'm able to visualize it.
I can visualize in an extremely detailed way, and can "feel" emotions that others do (cringing to death kind of thing but with all kinds of emotions), as well as other sensory imagination. It's no cake walk, it's actually a detriment sometimes. The funny thing is, I can't draw for shit. I'm sure I could get reasonably okay at it, but it's not a natural talent of mine. I can make things like a desk or chair with few problems, but I couldn't sculpt without a lot of work. I think it might be that drawing and sculpting are the kind of thing where if you mess up it's hard or impossible to undo (getting the proportions wrong or hitting a fault in the stone, etc). Another interesting thing is that I'm great at getting the gist of what people want when they don't know English as well as I do, but I am nearly incapable of using other languages to communicate very effectively. I spent 4 years in highschool in spanish class but all I came away with were a generally better understanding of how to conjugate in several languages and the truth that vocab matters more than teachers say it does 😜
I have aphantasia and the best way to describe it is this: look at an object in the room. Now imagine licking that object. Now look at the floor, your doorknob, the grass outside. You can vividly imagine the sensation of licking objects. That feeling of knowing innately how something would feel too lick is exactly how imagining without visualizing feels.
@@stinkydoober I mean, yes, but I never loved math as a subject so I wasn't very good at it. Surprisingly though I was really good at Geometry and Trigonometry, which feel like they would benefit from a "minds eye" the most. I also write poetry, I'm working on a novel, I play music and write songs. I gotta say about 8 years ago when I found out about aphantasia I was really blown away by the fact that I was in the minority. Suddenly all the times in school where a teacher would ask everyone to close their eyes and imagine something made way more sense. Everyone else was actually seeing things!
This is why I always loved reading. Everything turns into a movie in my head still. I recreate everything described and it’s why I get disappointed with some movies made from books because they leave out a lot of information or changes things.
I have aphantasia. I love reading too, you'd think because I can't actually picture or see anything from the book in my head I wouldn't enjoy it. But strangely I do. Sometimes though when I really pay attention to the fact I'm reading words though I have a hard time focusing. It's so odd lol. I make up stories in my head all the time too, but it's like speaking the words as if telling or writing a story without actually seeing anything.
I remember reading of mice and men in English 9th or 10th and I always pictured things/scenarios in my head and I love it “feels like my own world” but sometimes when I see an actual concept from an artist or someone else I think, huh that’s now how I imagined it, I remember always hearing Lenny in a certain type of way and picturing how he looked whenever I would read it in my head
After realizing I have aphantasia, I realized this is why I didn't like reading. It always felt like a chore to me. I wondered why people didn't watch movies instead of reading LOL
I think I actually enjoy reading more than movies because I can’t visualize. I get overwhelmed by too much sensory information at once and often have a very hard time figuring out which details I’m meant to process and remember. With books, it’s simplified. I’m told which details to focus on, and they’re already in the ‘language’ of my mind-words instead of images or other senses-so I don’t have to do as much work to process. I do tend to skim descriptions, though, especially the first time through.
When you hear, it's still very clearly in your mind, right? Not exactly "real sound", no matter how much you focus, your ears don't feel it? That, but with the eyes... I'm sure it seems pretty wild. Some people can't grasp how having aphantasia's like, but I've gone "Well, I think without words, or many images every now and then"
@@fabiosonhandogrande1697 I played in Orchestra for 9 years. Movements of pieces I practiced will just show up. Sometimes it can be so loud/vivid it will seem like it is from the room. Listen to something like Philip glasses Einstein on the Beach. Music and people's voices will get mixed in my head all the time. Usually I don't even know the conversation that is getting mixed. Most of the time though you clearly know it's coming from your own head. Usually. *Then...* I had a stroke whenever I was 35. It affected The language center of my brain. I spent about 2 years learning how to talk, read, and do math again. My internal monologue now is chopped up and different... If feels less concise and I have aphasia all the time. Here's something I've never been able to articulate easily. So you know how like you miss a word or a concept and it's on the tip of your tongue but you just really can't remember it... Stroke brain feels completely different. It is like 404 not found in the subconscious.
I acquired aphantasia after an instense and awesome hallucingenic experience when I was 19yo. Last year I tried a meditation technique where you sit in front of a lighted candle and observe it briefly, then close your eyes and try to visualise it. As soon as you can no longer picture the candle (even a very fuzzy and non-detailed picture) you open your eyes and look at the candle again. After about 80 hours of practice over three months (40 minutes per day, every day), I went from a 2/10 visualiser to about 3-4/10. Not great but now able to create fuzzy images and briefly hold them in my mind. About six months later and it's gotten even better, up to about 6/10 now. Now when I'm playing fast-paced action video games, my mind is even showing my visual images of what might happen in the near future. It's pretty sick tbh, I love it haha. No idea if this will work for people born with aphantasia, but after having aphantasia for 25 years and then improving, I think this technique is worth trying out. I had to slow down a lot and start with very small details of the candle, often it was more like imagining the feel of the candle, rather than actually seeing it. Also, when eyes were open, very slowly scanning in the various details of the candle, then trying to replicate the slow scanning with eyes closed. Anyway, hope this might help someone out there. I was at peace with having aphantasia, but always wondered if maybe some day I would be able to visualise again. So I completely understand the frustration with hearing people that say 'just try x' and you can fix it. But at the same time, what have you got to lose by trying this technique?
@@carrikartes1403 Yeah that's pretty much same for me before I corrected it. Could only see split-second visuals and the details and colour were extremely poor.
I can't imagine anything unless I am extremely sleep deprived or right before falling alsleep, when my body beggins to remove my admin privileges to the ability to move my body(falling into lucid dreaming). In that state and lucid dreams i see shapes or low detail locations, more towards concepts like road/hills/trees/houses occupying particular location in the vision field, but there's no color and very little texture
Yes I can only do it if I get into a deep meditative state. And its like flashes of pictures rather than me manipulating them, sometimes I see some wild stuff but I have to stay on top of practicing meditation to keep the ability so it fluctuates
I’m not sure that’s imagination though. I believe that’s considered a type of hallucination called a hypnogogic hallucination. It definitely can feel similar enough to be mistaken as visual imagination though. So what you are experiencing is pretty close and sensation to what happens when people visualize something. It might even be slightly more. Though with these hallucinations, they tend to be much less controllable than visual imagination.
I can only imagine tinted looking things. Like there's a filter over everything i imagined. Like an old film, y'know. The filter is almost yellow, but not quite. A bit brownish, but when i dream. That, is when every colors came. I also lucid dream often. Not all the time, but it happens quite often enough. I always have telekinesis as a default setting in my lucid dream doe. It's like a clutch that my mind made up to make me realized it quicker that "this was a dream, so hurry up and do your thing".
I know what you mean, I remember I deprived myself of sleep to see what would happen and I remembered I saw this antique doll and colors were flashing, from black and white to the image being in color. I also remember seeing those geometrical/kaleidoscope looking shapes. That was crazy.
As someone with Aphantasia and a dissociative disorder, I find the way I can't visualize things feels very similar to trying to remember something that I have disassociated from. It's very interesting
There it is. This is a dissociative disorder. I knew this shit was sounding too much like a mental illness to be some normal thing people have. Every person talking about it sounds off in some way so that fits. No offense guys I am just off in a slightly different way so I can tell lol.
this makes sense. i don’t have aphantasia but i do have a dissociative disorder, and i can picture an apple in my head, but if someone is describing to me an object or place or something, its like trying to recall a dissociated memory. so like if my friend were to describe a shirt they saw at the store, i wouldn’t be able to imagine the shirt and i would just feel vaguely frustrated/confused. sometimes even things i know about- like if a friend were to ask me about a detail on a shirt i /own/- ill still be just as lost. like yeah i know i own that shirt but idk what it looks like.
Dr. Lau is spot on. I can imagine things without seeing them. With the object rotation, in order to compare figure 1 to figure 2, and check for a match, rotate 1 into the position 2 displays, using a combination of my eyes and my imagination, and it lined up in about 2 seconds. If I closed my eyes it would be impossible to do.
Yup, I found out I had aphantasia around 10 years ago at a dinner party. Someone said wow i had to imagine/ picture myself on a beach to relax. I laughed and said so you're just saying that as a turn of phrase. He said no i am literally seeing this on my mind. 😅 i was like wait can all of you do this ? And everyone at the table said yes, i was flabbergasted. Im in it by the way. And I also use arch 😂
Yes, but do you go to the beach? Also, what do they mean by "picture". How close that is in their mind to what they would exactly experience? Are they feeling the heat of the sun on their skin, the sort of burning feeling? Hearing the sloshing of the waves and the seagulls? How far does it go? My guess is that everything is "conditioning" if you do X a lot you can "visualize it a lot"/experience it in your mind better. The more you do it the more you can experience it. It's also about how much of "in the moment" you are. When I was younger I couldn't visualize and experience in my mind much but as I got older I could do much more. It's about learning to connect more with our senses rather than being in "thought space". The more of a thinker one is the less they are just experiencing and vice versa. E.g., if you are imagining things in your mind you can't really think normally because you are already using your mind. E.g., when they imagine themselves on the beach do they also imagine what they are thinking as they are experiencing all that(basically exactly as if they were on the beach)? Likely not. I do think that some people have more "active imaginations" than others and it is a spectrum but I seriously doubt people experience their imagination as if they were in reality. How could they function. I have had a few times when my mind was very "vivid" and I could not live like that constantly. I would begin to confuse my mind with reality. E.g., before I started doing music I was very confused on how musicians could hear music in their head since I never heard any. But after doing music I can create music in my head very easily. It's conditioning. If you spend a lot of time doing something it will become more "real". Maybe it takes doing drugs as that was probably the real turning point for me. Once you do some mushrooms and you experience a different world you realize there is far more out there and it opens your mind to the "experience". Probably any extreme situation triggers peoples minds to expand and teaches them to "think outside the box" and people that are used to living in those high intensity states of mind are just more conditioned to experience more in their own minds.
IKR "It's like wait can all of you do this"😆 I had the same experience & also flabbergasted. I thought everybody was just making it up & joking with me 😆 I love your story how you described it & wrote it 😆 You sound like a really fun person & probably the funnest person at the party 😂 Thanks for your story! 🤍😂🤍👍
I have Aphantasia and I was always so frustrated when someone said "Close your eyes and imagine X". I was always thinking what kind of bs trick that is when I can't imagine anything. After some time I've looked into it and I found out that people actually can imagine things and see them in their mind. I felt so bad, I love art, I love books, I love science and knowing how many times cooler would all these things be if I was able to imagine them just hit me like a truck. Ever since I am kinda envious of everyone who have the ability to imagine things clearly in their head. I would also like to describe how it feels when I try to imagine things. It feels like I am only thinking in a facts. I know how apple looks, I know it's rounded, I know what kind of color it can have, etc. But I can't imagine it. I can draw it since I know the apple is rounded, I can color it since I know for a fact which colors can apple have but I can't visualize it. It feels as if I told myself ok so let's visualize an apple and task would be passed down to someone else, imagining the thing and then telling me what it looks like. I can't see it. I just for some reason know how it looks based on my knowledge.
As someone with aphantasia, whose primary job is design, I absolutely think having images in my head would be a superpower. I've often been called "superhuman" because of my ability to solve complex engineering problems. I've come to the conclusion that we all experience life in a way that's unique to each individual. We happen to experience it with enough similarities that we can agree on most things. This agreement becomes our agreed-upon reality. Ultimately, we are all unique in our experiences.
One of my friends has aphantasia and still he devours books. It is so inspiring that nobody or even yourself can stop you when you're involved in such thing with enthusiasm.
it's easier to read books with aphantasia. There are no distractions and hence I've gotten really high speed reading scores. We basically treat the words like you would a math problem by using just the symbols (for example, some may imagine 2 apples and 2 apples as 4 apples OR you can just do logic with the symbols of 2+2=4 without messing with apples), we don't have to imagine or picture it.
I had a stroke that borked my ability to read books. Before I did. I loved to read and I am aphantasic. They are basically books on tape that play in your mind symphony.
I get so bored reading all the seemingly meaningless details, I just want to know the story, the characters etc, the real meat of the story. I have a very fundamental way of looking at the narrative.
@SamGarcia do you think music conveying the meaning of the words in unison would help you get a better understanding or do you think you already comprehend enough? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question
This research excites me intellectually and devastates me personally. I’ve been progressively losing my ability to (or based on what the video describes, my *awareness* of it) visualize things in my mind as I rely more and more on dissociation to function the way I need to for a paycheck instead of the ways I enjoyed when I was younger. I also demonstrate a lot of symptoms associated with alexithymia, except I actually can identify my day to day emotions. Seems like I really am slowly dissociating my life away. Functioning normally but “spiritually” bereft.
In this realm our training forgets to mention that underneath all of it you to are an "I". An I can identify with any description it chooses to be true. See, with all the I's running about; Identities are reinforced or destroyed by a form of democracy or majority belief of state of some quantified event or observation. Being aware of what you are presenting to all the others and knowing that they are not aware of what they presented to you eventually makes you feel like your imagination is gone but it's not true your imagination has moved up a step. Find where it is it might shock all of us.
Being in the spiritual community it makes you feel like your minds eye is broken or blocked when you can't visualize. I can feel, imagine, and sense a subject, but I can't see it as if I were looking at it with my eyes. I get bright light outlines, bright orbs and darker than black ones, but it's hard to get vivid pictures. Yet my dreams are vivid and in color. I can use all of my senses in my dreams. That's why I like guided meditations that say "visualize or imagine" because my imagination is off the charts.
According to 'Keylontic Science', matter is made up of a pattern of scalar waves flashing "on and off". Like binary codes. I believe that's what I "see" when I visualize.
I work with a lot computer code, mostly C/C++. A while back, I had a revelation that I often remember code by how it _looks_ (whitespace, indentation, line lengths, etc.), and thought maybe I'm weird and other people don't think that way. I can still picture code I haven't looked at in years.
@@honkhonk8009 Oh yeah, I mostly mean for finding snippets I'm interested in, that I remember seeing or writing some time ago. I don't think Turing machine unless I'm writing brainfцck, and then for anything complicated I map the memory cell usage in comments. Assembly isn't much different thought process from C, just a lot more tedious, especially with SIMD or stack manipulation, which are the major reasons to write assembly these days. If you want something different, functional languages are cool, because they make you invert your whole thought process compared to procedural.
Around 12:30 he starts getting into that thing scientists do where he dismisses imagination/intuition. This is a serious flaw. Let's show this metaphorically: You come into a room where there's a bunch of puzzle pieces spread all over the floor. You and a friend try to put them together. After a while, you intuit that you're missing a lot of pieces, and you get this feeling because you can imagine, from the pieces you've seen, what the total image is. Your friend says, "No, that's not scientific. We have to derive an answer from these pieces here, which we know exist. We can't rely on hypothetical 'other' pieces."
4:12 I would argue that the "layman's" definition of conciousness is less about being able to respond to things and just literally being *aware* of stuff. If you are conscious of something, it doesn't mean you're responding to it, it means you are aware of it on a mental level, with the distinction being 'aware' is more about sensory perception and conscious being "it is on my mind" perception; if you are aware of a car, you possess the factual knowledge of the car's existence. If you're conscious of the car, you're actively paying attention to the idea of "there is a car".
I think the best way to explain what aphantasia is like is a book. Instead of visualizing the object, I describe what an apple would look like if my eyes were open. I know an apple should be red so I add 'red' as an adjective, and I just build with words until I have the scene I want
Can you explain how would you interpret something that you have never seen before and it's beeing described to you? And if don't see it can you remeber the description and tell it to others?
@@renelovemetal Not them, but aphantasic. -Personally, I wouldn't do very well at interpreting it. I would need the description to draw a lot of parallels to things I *have* seen before, but that would only give me a vague understanding of the function, or maybe the size or shape as it relates to me or objects near me at the moment. Either way I would have no way to really imagine or conceptualize the thing, and if its something more abstract as opposed to a singular physical object I basically stand no chance. -Probably? If I knew I was going to need to describe it to someone else later I could pay extra attention to the description given to me, and just recite that as a script. I would think it would be harder to describe it to others compared to an object I have seen before, but I assume thats the same for anyone. The point there is that describing something to others is the same as my own mental recall though. I wouldn't be drawing off a visual picture in my mind to recall the thing to describe it, I would be drawing off the conceptual description I have in my mind for it. Similar to just defining a word the way a dictionary would.
@renelovemetal I am notoriously bad with lists of instructions so I think they fall under the same generalization of "things I've never seen before". I keep notes for a lot of the hard-core puzzle games I play so I never lose info I stop thinking about frequently. When I read the maze runner books I never imagined what the monsters described looked like, I just thought about the adjectives used like "sticky, almost fluid, semi mechanical" and was content with that as my understanding of the monster. I still know how terrifying it should be, but I could never see it for what it truly is. Just the outline of what it could be if that makes sense
Your comments on rotating the object 01:58 are not how I do it at all. I do not rotate the object, I compare the relationships of parts of the object to get the answer. If anything I'm trying to create a new image, not manipulate the old one, which may account for the delay. I'm not 100% blind in mind, I have a large memory store, I can think about things I have seen, but creating something new is extremely difficult.
Also, if I'm looking at an object I don't usually have a mental image of it that I'm aware of, if asked to describe it I don't use a mental image. When describing from "memory" I also may not have a mental image but simply recite the previous description. But when asked to provide new information from memory then I have to visualize it.
@@James-g3w7w It's really hard to actually know how I do things, because it's not an image I can simply describe, it's a subconcious process that I have to review if I can. Often I'll arrive at an answer without knowing how I got there, just that it's right. That used to annoy math teachers who wanted me to show my working. If X-2=5, X=7, that is my working, there are no middle steps. I'm good at maths, perhaps part of my autism, I would have to slow down and think to add extra steps. It gets really hard as an artist though, drawing from memory or imagination is challenging until I have made a few marks on the paper.
@@Argrouk Yeah, I was thinking before you said it, this guy sounds autistic like me. When I was young everyone was impressed by my memory, but I could not memorize anything on purpose. I didn't memorize the times tables, instead I figured out that 2x2 means 2 two times and would fast add by the numbers in visualized groups. Funny, if you saw the Terrence Howard 1x1=2 on Joe Rogan, not one of the mathematicians proving him wrong said "it just means 1 one time and that's 1". Actually I had to learn word definitions for everything +=and -=take way and consider math short hand.
@@Argrouk Sorry I forgot to say I'm an artist too, when I was younger I had to see the finished product in my mind before I could draw it. An art teacher made it click for me "draw what you see not what you think you see".
Realized i had aphantasia when i told my college age daughter that I couldnt visualize her face when she wasnt around. This schocked her as her memories are in video and she can rmemeber scents. Shes a psych major and shortly came back and told me about aphantasia after hearing about it in cognitive psych. I always as highly suspicious of police sketches becauase there was any way i could never rememeber what a person i briefly saw when i couldnt rememebr my children's faces. I can identify you i just cant visualize it. Regarding the apple, I rememeber the Alt tag. Just words and symbols that describes what an apple looks like and what it sounds like biting into one and what its general shape is. I dont think i see an outline (maybe) but the calculation of what an apple is vs an orange.
Since someone might relate, I'm a writer / actor with aphantasia. It's such a funny concept to me that I have a "vivid imagination" and yet... I don't See anything in my head. In fact, I always got frustrated during acting exercises during class that emphasized "picturing" a place or thing since I couldn't actually see something in my head; that's actually exactly how I began to realize I might experience things differently than the norm. I'm also an avid bookaholic ^^ because I enjoy worldbuilding / storytelling. I might not be able to picture the words on the page, but that doesn't mean I'm not going along on the ride with the characters. It also doesn't mean I can't worldbuild myself, which is something I've been doing for years. So I hope if anyone is an aspiring creative with aphantasia, you're not discouraged due to your mind's blind eye.
@@stinkydoober kind of. And more likely than not, you'll see me use my hands to keep track of numbers and kind of physically "draw" out equations ^^' It also takes a little longer for me to come up with the answer, I think, than other people I know and I have a habit with second guessing myself. It also depends on the math a little. Geometry is my worst nightmare; I need paper for that. Algebra is a bit easier, especially when it's basic, and I can use my hands.
I always had issues trying to just, imagine/visualize things out of nowhere, but I never paid any attention to it until a couple of years ago, when I realized that not a single time in my life have I ever been able to produce an "original" image in my head, and whenever I am asked to think of something that is not tied to an actual memory ("think of an apple" VS "think of that apple you ate earlier"), at most, I get a very blurry and broken image that kind of flashes in my head for a millisecond and then completely fades away and I can't ever describe anything I "saw". It got me thinking of when I was a kid, and I went through all Harry Potter books, and could never ever imagine how any of the characters would look like, or the scenery, the rooms, outfits, the castle, nothing at all, and the only image I can produce, is from the movies. This has always been with me all my life... And something I just realized while writing this!!! The only times Ai have ever "seen" things that are not directly tied to a memory of something I've seen before, is either when I'm very high on hallucinogens, or very deep into meditation. The first one is the most common tho haha
Wow i think i have this, i do not see any image when i close my eyes, just have a fleeting sense of apple-ness that is gone as quickly as it arises, in fact i can actually visualize the apple better in my mind with my eyes open but even then it feels more like a memory regarding what i know about apples rather than an actual image, probably why i have always been terrible at drawing anything i cannot see.
@@AmyFerguson I normally have complete blankness only when I try to visualize anything, but sometimes when im very sleepy I get an "impression" of something in just the way you're describing! Very neat! I always question myself like "wait did i just *picture* a slice of pizza?!?" but when I think back its more like I saw a millisecond after-image of a triangle that could be imagined to be a slice of pizza, there were no details or real colours, just a flash of light that was vaguely triangular and my lil creative brain went "hey pizza is triangular! Maybe that was pizza?
Bro same. I’ve always been this way and it’s super hard to explain how I remember things. I’ve always been good with numbers and remembering sequences but I don’t have a visual memory to go off of it’s like I pull the information from no where
Visualisation tends to be quite varied even amongst those who can do it, for some it is more or less vivid and some see it better with their eyes open whilst others can only do it with their eyes closed. It could be you fall on the lower end of that spectrum and visualise better eyes open. I have full aphantasia, and even something like a memory is not really like I can relive but just information I have access to. For example, I would assume you know that 1+1 is 2, but I bet you don't remember learning that, it's just information you have. That's kind of how all my memories are.
You’ll know if you can literally see an image. It sounds like you are probably “convincing yourself”, because you’d probably know it if you were vividly seeing a lifelike image.
I completely disagree that it happens via disassociation. When I "rotate" the image, I am simply comparing points of the second image based on the concept of the first image. The first rotation takes less time because there are less points of difference.
Yup. I do things like pick a corner and think if something is left or right; front or back of it and then transpose that rule to the other object. It's conscious and quite manual and that's why it takes time not because it's "not conscious" as he said early in the video. Edit: I replied during the intro. Finally at the interview. I think it's weird that he says there's no conscious experience in visual imagery. There's consciousness just more like a lack of ability kinda like people who are tone deaf. They can hear tones to some extent, they just can't reproduce them accurately or in the worst case cannot discern them accurately.
I suffer from this! My entire 47 years of life I thought everyone imagined things like me until like 8 months ago I saw a video about someone talking about Aphantasia.. I could not believe people actually could see actual images when they imagined something or like when they read books they have mini full color movies running in their heads.. I just read words and get a concept of whatever im reading in my head. I was SO mad and jealous when I found this out. I feel like I've missed out on so much..I remember growing up doing group meditation exercises and the speaker saying things like imagine a sunset or a beach and I'd always think what's the point? I'm an artist as is my whole family and my whole life I have never been able to draw things from imagination but when I look at something I can draw it really well.. Now I know why I never could draw or create newly imagined things..It pretty robbed me of my dream of working in any artistic field..You people are so lucky I'm so jealous =( I wish there was a cure
@ashesrockstotaldrama thanks man! Yeah I know but it was a shock to feel disabled in a way after 47 years. Felt like if a person wanted to be football player their whole life and just thought they weren't talented only to find out one day they had been born without legs and no one ever told them that.
I found out a month ago and man worst is im only 14, and you're right, im so jealous that some people can just perfectly picture things in their head, while when I concentrate on trying to imagine things its like blurred out, its like a very distant memory. when trying to imagine an apple in my head theres just like a blurred out circle kind of thing, and I dont even know if thats really imagination, and I only have slight aphantasia, or my brain filling the blanks. I dont know if I explained this well. but when I found this out I was absolutely devastated
I have the ability to foresee the future slightly . I can’t control it but I see things and tell people and the things come to be and the people cry at what happens every time when I tell them. I can also at time read peoples thoughts and am extremely lucky but not for myself always who I’m with. Wild shit for sure!
Its cool that some people don't have an inner voice, but now that I've watched this video, it might be plausible to say they do have an inner voice but it's hidden within the unconscious processes.
So my in-law I work with has neither it’s insane I asked how do you think he just saws idk I told him I have an inner monologue and he looked at me like I was crazy lmao
My buddy from work Simon and I had a conversation ab the inner monolog (he has none I have lots) and he described his thoughts closer to smells than words which is fascinating to me. He says it's because the thought is instant rather than needing to say a whole sentence in his mind, so it just feels closer to how smells work rather than speaking. I'm curious if he made that connection solely because of a lack of "noise" in his head, since my thoughts are instant as well, I just feel the urge to explain my actions to myself. I'll tell myself "you know why you're getting up why are you explaining it to yourself" and then continue explaining anyway
I really don't understand the lack of inner monolog thing. My inner voice LITERALLY NEVER shuts up. Ever. I can't imagine it not being there. My head would be so empty.
@@waterinferno2071 Yeah he described it pretty well. I have aphantasia and but I do have an inner monologue. Weird thing is I can 'temporarily' turn this inner monologue off by focusing VERY hard at not thinking about any word, and it does feel like 'smelling'. I believe it's possible to achieve this state easier by practice of meditation. Just to be clear, it's not that I literally smell things. Smell is similar to not verbalizing words because humans lack vocabulary to describe smell precisely. We always talk about smells by comparing them to other things, but never naming the smells themselves.
i actually remember being like 7-8 years old in the car and realizing i can do this!! for some reason i pictured lois griffin (lmao?) in front of me in the car and i was just blown away how i could "see" her but obviously she wasn't real or entirely visible to me. i thought it was so fascinating
this combined with synesthesia is almost overwhelming sometimes, but also incredibly fun and interesting! im on the spectrum so obviously my experience with sensory processing is quite intense, in my experience the ability to visualize is linked with this varying sensory experience. i wonder if this is something that has been examined?
I was born with aphantasia and I’ve been trying to understand the advantages. I have found some good ones! 1 - I sleep super fast, no problem at all. 2 - my meditations are peaceful and deep 3 - I live 100% in the present moment because I can’t be anywhere else! 4 - my way of thinking is quite different from others for obvious reasons 5 - I don’t traumatise as easily as I can’t picture anything. 6 - nature and art are an absolute joy for me as they are the only way I can experience beauty 7 - music is my life! I think I’m not so dependent on visuals because of my aphantasia. I was upset for a few days when I discovered aphantasia. Now I completely embrace it! It is who I am!
That all sounds like pure cope towards being an NPC. I'm kidding. Not really, but kinda. You can learn it. It's a skill, not some magical ability. Start by closing your eyes and constructing a white square there. It's cool if you have to strain, it'll get easier. Once you can do it easily and quickly, you can invert the image. Make it a black square on a white background. Then fold it in half. Then fold it diagonally. Then make it red. Or blue. Or hot pink. Then you can make it a triangle. Or circle. Or star. Or starman. Or pentagram. Then you can start with real world things. Start simple. Like, for instance, an apple... Then make it 3d. Then do it with your eyes open. Then do it in real space, like on your hand or desk or floor. Just spend the time at each step until you can do it. The first part is the hardest. Once you got that part, the rest is easy.
This is fascinating, I just figured out today after watching this that I have aphantasia. My background is theoretical physics. When I did my research and dissertation in grad school I can imagine things in my mind but I rarely need to do it unless it's necessary. So when I imagine quarks distribution in a hadronic particle then my mind would think about quarks without picturing it. I noticed this when in the beginning of the video the blocks were visualized by actually rotating them. My mind can pictures two blocks and comparing their arrangements without rotating them. My wife always told me that I am a platonic because I tend to see things in abstract and generality not in particular or concrete. But I guess it takes a new meaning. Thank you for this video. I just learned something new today.
I normally got aphantasia and think in terms of sound, voice. But recently when i was tired and lied on the bed i stopped thinking hearing voice in my head and instead was imagining a movie or something like this it was really cool
@@pushparahi5681 For everyone its different experience. Im used to it so can't say but when I don't hear sound i feel very uncertain and kinda in the flow like life just happens you have no control
@@pushparahi5681 I have aphantasia and no inner voice. Not difficult at all. I only think about what I want to think about and if I don't want to think I don't. There are no voices in my head and no random thoughts that pop up. Just me thinking what I want to think.
I have aphantasia, and the rotation test is very interesting, it almost feels like I'm "imagining" tactile rotation rather than visual rotation. I get the same feeling when predicting how a Rubik's cube will change based on certain moves, or when studying molecular structures. What I find interesting also is that I get very heavily immersed in novels, specifically adventures and journeys, mostly because of how much I feel the sounds, smells, and general atmosphere of the different scenes present in books.
Wall of Text alert! I had a super scary introduction to my own aphantasia: (TL:DR - I learned I had aphantasia after enduring a week long mental breakdown or something...) This is 7-8ish years ago: I was reading a webnovel at my desk when it happened: my brain was suddenly flooded with words, sentences, complete paragraphs of an un-known story. My internal monologue was hi-jacked by the words, like someone stole away the mic and was shouting directly into my brain. Such an intense verbal barrage completely killed off my ability to function beyond basic self-care. My focus was utterly destroyed. It took an hour or two of me sitting in a daze before a thought broke finally through the noise and made me act. It wasn't a rational thought, it was more like a compulsion; Vent the words onto paper (a word doc) and hope that it would empty my mind enough to regain control. And so, I started writing. For a week, I did nothing but write. When I (eventually) noticed that it was dark, I'd go and cook low-tier meals with easy prep (and I still burned a few due to the broken focus). It felt like I was trapped inside my head the whole time, just experiencing the world passively without any thoughts because I literally couldn't hear myself think. Conversations were impossible, I basically grunted and said yes or no to any questions while I was cooking dinner. Writing seemed to help, but it was like the difference between being set on fire and being dipped in magma. Both are bad, one is just less bad... Somehow I managed to survive until the end of the week and on morning 8, I woke up half asleep and sat down at my desk. As the screen flickered on, I suddenly started crying because I could finally hear my thoughts again: "I need a coffee..." Thankfully that sort of thing hasn't happened again, because it was absolutely terrifying... During that manic week, I wrote about 200k words (it was all pretty shit because I wasn't even a hobbyist writer at the time). It traumatized me to the point that my brain keeps trying to convince me that it was just 'inspiration' and to this day, reading that novel draft makes me feel off so it won't become a complete story anytime soon. In the aftermath of that event, I was curious to look stuff up online and thus found out that I'm basically on the bottom tier of visualization for aphantasia. Also, there's no making music because my internal monologue is just that; a voice that kinda sounds like me, endlessly ranting in the darkness. Learning more about it was quite refreshing as I could finally understand many things that were weird when I was younger. For example, I absolutely hated mathematics because I couldn't do the calculations in my head without forgetting numbers (similar to how people shout random numbers at someone's who's counting to make them forget...). Now I have a concrete reason why I hated it so much, which helped me to hate it less. Once I realized that, I came up with new methods that suit me for counting (I use verbal rhythms for the numbers I'm adding. For example, 80 + 15, I would first do the 80 + 10 which is simple enough, then count out the 5 with a certain rhythm which helps me to remember the numbers much easier somehow. If there's a carryover, I can use half-steps to indicate it in the rhythm. Hey, if it's stupid but it works...) The big take-away is that my internal monologue is supremely-uber-highly-mega important for me to function as a human and when it goes away, my brain functions at the level of a smart dog. Right, I also learned that my spatial memory seems pretty good; I can still remember the dimensions of my grandma's linen closet (we used to hide there as brats while playing hide and seek...) I can still draw a basic floor plan of that house even though I haven't been there in like 20 years (They just moved houses). Maybe I missed my calling, maybe I should've been an architect.
Loved your story. I'm an architect, so the end took me by surprise! Like you, I also can recall spaces pretty well. In fact I remember and can probably draw to scale all the dwellings I've ever lived in, even the apartment we lived in when I was a toddler. Did you ever find out why you had that "verbal storm" that locked you into a writing trance?
This doesnt really sound like it would have anything to do with aphantasia. I mean what you described is some sort of panic attack and the math thing is about focus, not visualisation. Pointing to ADHD.
@@phobics9498 over a full week long of the same hyperfocus is pretty our there for adhd, sounds more like a schizoaffective breakdown than anything else.
I have total aphantasia and have for as long as I can remember. Sometimes it makes me sad, like I’m missing out on something fundamental, and it makes me feel very separate from other people. I’ve been practicing for years and occasionally get this momentary flash of mental imagery, although I can’t control what the image is OF, and by the time I notice it, it’s gone. Wish I had an MRI and could see what’s going on in my brain when that happens 😆
It's a hard feeling, the realization of being different or missing out. But the mind is complex and we know so little about it. Aphantasia is framed as a "lack of" with research, but that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't strengths to an aphantasic brain. It definitely makes it harder when most people operate under the "norm", but aphantasics still excel across many disciplines. The mind finds a way, no matter what. When I am having a hard time with the missing out feeling, I go back to before I knew it was a thing and think about how I thought about it. For myself I didn't really notice a difference, it was only by discussing with others that I was made aware of the difference. I also have ADHD and was undiagnosed most of my life. Once I did know the difference it helps to understand, and know why certain things are harder for me than others. But also why I excel at other things. Meds help me function in neurotypical environments, but largely if the world was structured a bit differently I would be just fine. I think we notice these "lacks" just because it's not the majority case and so it amplifies the difference as a negative rather than trying to see how each person can contribute with their own strengths.
Like ppl who claim to not enjoy music or tone deaf, they’d be able to do some of it but not experience it? Brain scan comparisons of deaf ppl and blind ppl to sighted and hearing ppl must be interesting. Aphantasia brains have differences in visual cortex activities? Some ppl during a stroke , are not aware that they are having a stroke. Once a gun shot victim was interrogated with internal bleeding and was not clear headed enough and forced to admit killing instead of getting emergency help… this is a good episode.
known I have aphantasia for years (thanks to some content on youtube). always thought, 'minds eye' - just a phrase that people used - no idea that people could *actually VISUALISE* things - blew my mind (not as much as people who don't have an inner voice/how do they THINK???) - I've l already happily volunteered to be part of a couple of uni research projects (University of Auckland, Aotearoa/New Zealand). what I find really interesting is... well number of things well it *is* POSSIBLE for me to see images - when I am completely utterly totally EXHAUSTED (think of a civil defense training weekend - from Friday evening to Sunday night 0 we has to drive after work (*when* I WAS working, many moons ago) - under the training they pushed us hard - little sleep - and trying to get to sleep these random but very detailed images - usually of random people did not know would just FLASH in my mind I went through a drinking binge in early 2014 for about 10 days (please don't judge me - reasons) - by the end similar but worse - VERY CLEAR - random images - regardless of whether my eyes open or shut - flash flash flash flash - so clear like watching TV but someone else is changing the channel every few seconds - really freaked me out PLUS - have VERY VIVID dreams - to the point where well well well before Inception (movie) - I had worked out a system (look at a clock - look back - time had changed - *ONLY* way in the dream I KNOW I'm dreaming - just like this 'reality' - sometimes try/succeed turn into a lucid dream - ) some images from *dreams from years* ago stuck in my head - though I can't 'see' them - still THERE although I cannot SEE images, I can draw a map/image of what is in my head - (i'm 52 now - have clear distinct vivid memory of an incident in kindergarten - yes kindergarten - sent this information to my mother few years back in an email - she didn't come back with "don't be ridiculous" = just accepted it = and moved onto to another topic oh - I'm an INTJ btw - professional tested twice - career counselling in 1998 & weekend business retreat based around Myers Briggs in.. 1999? 2200?
That's interesting 🤔 I have pretty vivid visualization and rarely dream. In fact, I feel more rested when I don't dream, which is most nights. Sometimes though, it's like living an entire lifetime or more shoved into those few hours. I cringe to death at random memories too 😂 very annoying usually. Almost like my brain is deliberately keeping me from being too happy because every time I've felt really happy for the last 15 years something devastating has happened soon after. It's hard not to be pessimistic about it, but it's something I know how to deal with 99.5% of the time. I hope you get to find out what those studies found, if you haven't already 🙂
@@crunchymushy I take it you mean Aotearoa ??? mate! it's easy...🙃 actually - aoutoeaeara is on right track - more vowels than english speaks are used to - including ng (like singer) ok first, vowel sounds are a little different - instead of a, e, i, o, u A (ah) - Pronounced like the 'a' in 'are. ... E (eh) - Similar to the 'e' in 'there. ... I (ee) - Sounds like the 'ee' in 'three. ... O (aw) - Similar to the 'o' in 'or. ... U (oo) - Pronounced like the 'o' in 'two. ... Ng - Pronounced like the 'ng' in 'song. ... Wh - Usually pronounced like the 'f' in 'fine. next - you break it down into 'chunks' each bit that ends in a vowel is a 'chunk' so Ao /tea / roa Ao = hmm - Ah-o (as above, where, A in 'are' & O as in 'or' tea - tea-ya roa - like 'rower' (some one who rows a boat) VERY *rough* guide - listen Splitz Endz = 6 months in a leaky boat - (song) - they start with Aotearoa - lovely name - means 'land of the long white cloud' now that you've mastered that - onto our next vocab word - Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu (85 letters); Short form: Taumata "The summit where Tamatea, the man with the big knees, the climber of mountains, the land-swallower who travelled about, played his nose flute to his loved one". Note: Listed in the Guinness World Records as the longest official place name in the world.
About your remark on people not having an inner monologue: I have an inner monologue but I've a few memories from very early childhood where I didn't have an inner monologue. It wasn't at all bothering me in my understanding of my environment or in my interactions with it. I also more recently experienced my inner monologue temporarily disappearing while being chemically impaired. It was a bit more peaceful but that didn't render me unable to think. I've come to think that the inner monologue, like visualization, is only mirroring subconscious processes instead of being the main drivers of information processing. Try to do the following to understand what I mean: focus on your thoughts and cut your inner monologue short. Then, ask yourself if you really did lose information doing that. You most likely didn't.
This is the only channel I've found that is covering the many aspects of the hard problem of consciousness so clearly and easily to digest, and it's a topic that deserves so much more attention, with it arguably being the core mystery of everyone's life and existence. Unbelievably interesting and awe inspiring, and if there was a course about it and I had the time and money, I would without a doubt enroll. Thank you so much for covering these modern day enigma's that almost feel like the only remaining piece of true magic left in a world where science has made the explanations to most things that were once magic, seem predictable or mundane.
I don't really get how scientific explanations take away any of the magic or majesty to aspects of our universe. Like we might be able to explain the "how" of some complex processes but there's still plenty of awe and magic left to be found in the "why"
It explains why many engineers at work can't seem to understand when I'm trying to explain a simple mechanical issue. I can see it in my mind, but they can't, they see it as numbers and usually are way off from reality.
As someone with aphantasia, ive realized that memory recall is a different thing to composing new "images" in the minds eye. So i sort of have a bank of memories which i can access, but for new constructs i find i need to write or draw them out to explore them. Then they become a memory that i can work with.
You can learn it. Close your eyes and construct a white square on the black backdrop. Then fold, rotate, shift, change the shape, spin it, rotate it, etc. Do those in any given order, but make sure you master the first step before trying the others. From there, it's a short step from simple shapes to complex imagery.
True ask me to visualize an apple and I can get if I try hard a crazy slide show of apples tree branches anything related to an apple but I can't focus on one apple. But not always often it is blank.
Yes I'm the same way! For this reason I have often though of myself as not having 'full aphantasia' but I wonder if as you say it would be more accurate to think of these as separate processes? I would be really curious to see a study on this relationship
@@samuelrosenberg1991 hey! Yes indeed! My "hypothesis" (AS IF i was some kind of academic lol) is that indeed there are 2 processes, probably more. I have another interesting anecdote to describe, it happened a few days ago when my wife was trying to show me something. And through that process we discovered something that kind of supports the memory thesis. If you want to know more, let me know!
I see two images, both 3d, one with my eyes and one with my mind. They can be unique. As I listen and look at a person, I also see what they are saying or what I’m thinking in mental visuals. Both take mental capacity, so as my eyes are focused on an external stimulus, my internal representations reduce in strength and vice-versa - as my imagination increases my external focus reduces. But it is very easy for me to translate a recent external image into a mental one - like rotating a 3d object.
I have total aphantasia, but have done psychedelics and under the influence that's exactly how my perception became, 2 worlds and the ability to choose which one to pay attention to. My real eyes and one in my mind. Absent drugs, no mind's eye at all, just the real world.
@@Gnaritas42 I can attest to psychs having an effect on “increasing” the minds eye. I also remember my “minds eye” being an order of magnitude more vivid after having done psychedelics, still to this day, years since my first experience. (I don’t use them anymore besides marijuana - which does have its own effect but a lot less than psychs)
@@luke-8equalsD doing psychs was the first time I discovered what a minds eye was, and what a visual imagination actually was outside of dreams, and realized my thoughts could affect what I was seeing. Also only use mj these days.
I had the ability to visualize extremely vividly and in different ways my whole life. Then i had a crazy OBE in my 30s and after that i cannot visualize anymore. I thought something was wrong with me for a long time. Thought a part of me didn't return. It wasn't until i really started down my meditation, and looking inward process that i truly knew it was a gift. There was a major diference to how i learned to manipulate my awareness. Allowed me to feel and know instead of picture. It's hard to explain but now i think it's really helped me on my path. will continue to do so as i progress.
It is great to finally see someone working on consciousness research who has a realistic and practical view of it. The others I stumbled upon on the internet often couldn't even clearly define the object of their research. Sometimes I think we should come up with a new more clear term for what is called "consciousness" in that field, just like when UFO was replaced with UAP. I think it would save us a lot of headaches.
Oh wow, this is life-changing. He's totally describing me. In response to some of the comments. I can't "picture" an apple in my head. I can "imagine" a green apple vs. a red apple, taste the difference, feel how the texture is different on my tongue, hear the different sounds when I bite into each one, I can "imagine" how some set of features would change if it were rotated in different ways, but I can't conjure an image of it, and no I can't "see" green in my mind's eye when asked. I do get some abstract "shadows" with my eyes closed, and they can have color, but I have no control over them, except that if I try to identify them, they go away. When asked to visualize a tiger, (with my eyes open) I got an instantanious flash of a tiger's stripes and then the face of a tiger, but I can't pull them back, and with my eyes closed, I can't even get that. I had a therapist a few years ago who thought I might have a split brain disorder, her attempt to treat that went nowhere. I have had vivid lucid dreams where I tested my vision, and with effort, was able to make out details like the exhaust pipe of a car or, with effort, reading a sign (though it changed when I attempted to re-read it), and I can see color in dreams. No, I can't intentionally "picture" loved ones' faces, or my house, or green, or even the numeral 1. I've tried to ask others about how their minds eye works, it was like we were talking in different languages. If asked to imagine myself on a beach, the best analogy I could give is that I can only imagine myself as if I'm on a beach with my eyes closed. All of the other senses work fine, (sound works REALLY well for me, I think it's better than my actual hearing), but no vision at all. I'm an INTJ, computer programmer, and have been doing really fancy stuff with AI. I'm sort of elite in my ability to "imagine" the behavior of complex systems. This video and the comments section, even comments from those who think this isn't real, were very helpful. Edit: I don't think I've ever smelled anything in a dream, but yes I can conjur the sensation of specific smells on demand. I'd never tried that before now, but it works, so I know it's not something I had to "practice".
Really interesting that you can recall senses from other modalities but not vision. Your experience and vivid description of it is more confirmation to me that I lack any of what you describe in my mind.
@@claudiamanta1943 Well, I probably can't tell you in words what a rose smells like in a meaningful way. "Slightly sweet", that's obvious, and "soft" comes to mind for some reason I can't explain. I tried a few AI's (that is my specialty lately), they consistently say it's commonly described as smelling "romantic", "delicate", and other things that are mostly meaningless to my [probably underdeveloped] sense of smell. I also saw "Floral", well duh, and "Feminine", which seems nonsensical to me, roses do not smell like a woman, unless that woman is wearing rose-scented perfume. The point is that I can, at least for some things, intentionally recall an actual sensation that's very much like smell, but I can't (at least not conciously) do that for vision.
So fascinating. I’ve long struggled to mentally see images without accepting that my imaginings are more of a feeling than seeing. When I insist on creating an image it’s more electric in nature. I had no idea of aphantasia before this video. Thanks for the validation!
I genuinely went into this like “oh that’s weird…” Then I tried visualizing an apple Nothing. I tried visualizing a toothbrush Nothing. Roll of paper towels Nothing. So I might have aphantasia guys
Everyone’s explanation seems to be different. For me, it has to be “outside” my normal vision. Off to the side, in the periphery, usually “above” where I’m looking. But it’s not like an extension of my normal vision. I guess it feels like I’m seeing something with an eye that is literally inside the back of my head, and it’s pretty dark really unless my mind is clear. When zoning out, like in the shower, it’s like that “eye” takes priority though.
@@LeeTwentyThree yeah it's kinda like a third eye that is shut most of the time, and when you open it, it blends with the rest of your vision. Just like when your right and left eyes see seperate things
@@Whatismusic123 Thank you for this explanation. I have strong Aphantasia and have tried to teach myself to visualize. Anytime I feel like I'm close I can literally feel the energy in my forehead/top of my head
@ajvast Interesting. I really appreciate you describing it. I understand what the details of say an apple are. However I don't see an image of it, just know what the apples I've seen look like. If that makes sense. Now if you asked me to imagine something I've never seen I would not be able to explain any details. All of this is very intriguing to me. Again thank you for helping me to understand.
I have a mild version of aphantasia as I can see in front of me an apple, but only for a fraction of a second, after that there is only the abstract notion of an apple and the memory of the various properties a apple can have. I can consider rotating an abstract apple just fine. Lau's idea that there is an unconscious process going here is completely unfounded.
When he said to visualise an Apple I got nothing. But there are times where I can kind of visualise things, but it’s generally location based. If you asked me to visualise a deceased family member I simply can’t do it.
Very interesting! I may have this in some weaker form. I can bring up a weak image of an apple, mostly stemming from the memory of the apple, that was on my desk yesterday. But there is no color. And now I realize I generally don't see color in my imagination and when imagining something the images feel brittle. Same goes for dreams, I cannot remember, ever seeing intense color in dreams, even though I dream often. But I am a Computer Scientist and can visualize Algorithms and flow of data really well. I also own and design Bonsai trees and can imagine the shape, that I want, even when not looking at the tree. But more interestingly I am also a musician and I always envied people with chromesthesia (people, that automatically associate notes with certain colors). But now I realized, while listening to, or playing music, I associate it with shapes and texture. Very nice, thought stimulating video! Today I learned something new about myself, which I never thought about before.
what a nice comentary, i dont want to be disrespect but i have this cuestion from musician to musician, do you try psichedelycs? do you see colors there or not? (i know this has nothing to do whit the music lol)
I wonder what chemicals like LSD do. When I used to trip colors were everywhere like a kaleidoscope. Like others have said, I “see” my imagined objects but not like I see an outside object. It’s dreamlike. If I try to focus in, it disappears. I will say I imagined a green apple but it’s more like a memory of an apple. There’s no real green there.
To me LSD does nothing, only haven taken as much as 150 ug I haven't broken through on DMT but the visuals with my eyes open are much stronger on the spirit particle than on LSD And while LSD is mainly affecting things that are there, for example I would see the bark on tree revolve going upwards, or the small 3D spots on my wall shifting and moving, or a curtain dancing as if it was windy, on DMT I saw things that weren't there, for example I would look at some plants on the ground and I would see them sprout, grow, wither and die only to be replaced by new plants over and over again.
I have brutal aphantasia, absolutely blind mind, but on psychedelics I can see pattern like visuals in my kinds eye. Still no at will imagination, but some kind of crazy light show instead of total blackness.
I believe I have complete aphantasia and have never experienced visual dreaming. Curiously I excel at 3D spatial analysis and it's a core part of my work. I don't see the shapes I'm working with in my head; I feel them. Not physically but a feeling for distance and position. Almost like how you can map an object within a box using your hands, but obviously without any sense of touch involved. Hard to describe but quite powerful. The stacked cubes in your video took me a few seconds to 'map out' the initial orientation, but I could then determine sameness in the other orientations very quickly - likely less than a second each.
When I am talking with my friends online, one of them has at least said they have aphantasia, and they typically seem to be more logic oriented, and I personally have thought that maybe this is something like brain-handedness? Like for most people they press a 'button' to think of an image of whatever they want to imagine using their right hemisphere vs others using their left hemisphere to try for the same thing.
BINGO. This data support my comment for the video. It's about thinking in Ideas as opposed to Particulars .. or something. Thanks man. We're gonna solve the Riddle of the World, and have Peace. WE ARE BECOMING AS GODS. ('bout apple time!)
No its because their word oriented. Words use traditional logic. People with hyperaphantasia think abt stuff through processes and "feelings". Like I do my math through feelings more than actual logic. Im really ass at chemistry and biology and shit like that tho
When I typed logic oriented I didn't mean very specifically math, but moreso logically thinking in conversations or taking logical approaches to situations to a higher degree than what I personally consider a normal level
@@honkhonk8009I’m very word/logic system oriented but my memory works based on the “energy” of a memory, then specific “strands” of that energy represent objects, people, events in the memory, rather than words describing the memory, or genuinely re-experiencing in my mind as ive heard from some people. Idk if it’s necessarily one or the other, personally I think it’s probably more like a wheel of categories including traditional word logic, feelings/emotions, generally active vs passive, generally external vs internal, plus plenty of others I can’t think of off the top of my head, which everybody has varying degrees of natural ability in. We love applying binaries to topics, but the more we learn about topics we have split into harsh binaries, the more we have to take those binaries apart. It may be time to stop applying hard rules and restrictive boxes to things we clearly don’t understand yet. Binaries are not helpful in most contexts, we just seem to really love dividing things into two groups for no real reason.
As someone with seemingly quite severe aphantasia, the best way I can describe it is like AI image prompts, but in reverse. Instead of inputting words to generate an image, its as if when given an image prompt, I mentally "fill it in" with descriptive words. So in the case of apples, I know what apples look like and I can describe them to you in words, but I cannot see what I am describing as internally it is essentially text. For entirely new images/concepts I find that I rely almost exclusively on similes or metaphors that allow me to relate some known concepts and combine them to approximate what this new thing may look like.
I recently figured out that I have partial Aphantasia. I can visualize things in my mind to some degree, but the images tend to be fleeting and mostly grayscale (though I can get flashes of colour by focusing on the notion of something being a specific colour). Perhaps the best comparison would be the "Embossed" effect in image editing software, generally lacking in fine detail & texture, with the areas outside the central focal point becoming rapidly more blurred and dissolving towards the periphery. Yet perhaps surprisingly, I can visualize mechanical concepts & movement quite well (for example, the internals of an engine), though I can't see the whole image clearly at once (almost like shining a very narrow and rather weak torch in the dark). I can visualize (for example) a cabin I'd like to build, move my perspective around inside or outside, place the major components in that space, but it's all outlines & shadowy planes, and fuzzy outside the central focus. Sometimes I wonder if I'm really visualizing, or if it's mostly conceptualization parading as visualization.
Me too. My dreams are usually dark and fuzzy around the edges. Sometimes there is a “sense” of colour in that I know a bus is red in a dream but I don’t see the red.
out of interest, is there any difference when trying to visualise memories? So not some abstract imagined apple, but a specific photo you've seen before? Or given you have an interest in engines, maybe a specific engine or car you've seen many times
@@camicus-3249 No significant difference visualizing memories vs abstract. Familiarity adds detail to the object being visualized, but holding that detailed object in the minds eye is just as difficult, and will dissolve just as easily. It's still a patchy, fleeting, fading to greyscale view of a detailed object. Dreams are a little bit less so - still fuzzy & fleeting, and patchy colour, but not quite as bad as awake visualization, still considerably worse than my awake vision, which is excellent.
I have aphantasia and gf has hyperphantasia. Its interesting to hear her describe how she thinks, where she can basically create those images you see of an engine split apart and see how it all combines together. For me, (in something like this) it's more on the way things comnect. A goes with B, then do process C, etc. like its specifically the process that I think with. These are not 100%, I am still struggling with the words to describe how my brain thinks. Haven't found the right language to explain it yet, so I am glad its being looked into more.
Once you realise that you can't 'see' an apple, try thinking about a clock. I have full Aphantasia but I'm able to imagine clock hands at various times in my m,ind and replicate them - I just can't understand how it's done. It seems to run in families alongside Hyperphantasia. I have noticed those with Aphtantasia tend to be above average with words, whereas Hyperphantasia lends itself to visual art of course. We also get a meditation bonus (and we finally realise why we could never do the guided visual ones).
I long ago had given up on meditation because the few guides/pointers from friends/family were heavily visualization based. "Imagine a spoon in your mind and really focus on it". A frustrating few minutes later had me annoyed and resigned to the fact that it just wasn't for me. Never really revisited it since, perhaps I ought to give it another try.
@@TatuCarreta Sorry for the delay! Meditation was hopeless for the longest time but I was approaching meditation badly. Once I stopped trying to meditate on something and just sit and feel sensations in my body the aphantasia became a blessing. We only have thoughts to ignore, not imagery. The only time I actually recall seeing an internal image (and it was really vivid) was in deep meditation. I thought it was enlightenment. It was with a group and they just thought I was insane. 😁
When I imagine an apple it's the Pink Lady variety and I can also smell, and taste the sweet, tart, crunchy, smooth, flavors of it all too. My lips tingle, and my jaws contract.
I am a visual artist and have aphantasia. Everything is filed in my mind as concepts. I have good spatial awareness. In a way, I feel like it’s a net benefit. My imagination doesn’t feel as “polluted” and I don’t need to overcome what pops into my mind as much.
Hmmm.... Do I have a normal mind? I can imagine anything visualize anything and everything, but visualizing very complicated stuff takes too much brain power, so I just visualize parts of it and just use concepts on parts that the human brain just can't imagine, such a complicated thing. Tbh... I have the ability to dream while awake .... The way I do it is kind of forcing my brain to sleep but instead of the brain dreaming I do the dream by imagining things. By doing this I can actually choose what to dream and stuff. I can also do this when I wake up but I don't move or anything, I just think that I woke up but I'm still in a dream, basically half asleep the instant I try to move in real life I disconnect from my dream the same way I can connect when I want to as well Happens most often when I am sleeping and somebody calls my name And that kind of makes me wake up but not all the way I can manipulate this kind of half conscious state and basically know that I woke up even though I never left the dream, this way I can manipulate my dream it's kind hard since sometimes I fail and when I try to move in the dream I move in real life disconnecting from the dream When it is successful I'm able to control what I want to move kind of like transporting my consciousness into the dream When I move in the dream it feels just like moving my real body but the actual movements can't connect to real life And since I discovered this I have gotten an incredible amount of controllability in my normal dreams and I can actually recognize and acknowledge for example stuff like the super slowed movements in nightmares I can acknowledge that this is not normal and is supernatural but no matter how hard I think the word dream just escapes my mind It's kind of like forgetting what you were trying to do even though you are doing it
Opposite end of the spectrum here, super Hyperphantasia/MADD, tuning in. 4D visualization, simulating entire worlds in my head, etc. It’s debilitating, as it’s hard for me to interact with others normally at times.
Sometimes it feels like I have aphantasia, as it, at times, can be impossible for me to imagine things on command, but in reality I see incredibly vivid images in my head, they’re just entirely out of my control most of the time. If you ask me to imagine an apple, it’s like my mind is an old TV where I have to fiddle around with the antennas to get a clear picture, where often their is interference, and sometimes all I can get is snow. What makes it really interesting to me is that though I struggle to picture things in my mind on command, if you ask me to imagine something within the real world, I can “see it” Like experiencing an overlay. Seeing the apple in my mind can be a struggle, but picturing the apple sitting on the table in front of me is no problem at all.
I can visualize, but those visions are very bleak, blurred, they lack almost all detail and color. But I can imagine an overall impression of a place, including it's atmosphere, smell, sounds, temperature, how it touches. But images are really reduced, and take a lot of effort to imagine a detail of something. I cannot imagine faces. They are always simplified, and blurry, if I focus really hard, I see them in my mind, but only for a short moment, and it is very straining.
These comments are fascinating. I have the opposite of aphantasia. I have no internal monologue nor do I think in language, period. My thoughts are exclusively images and abstractions. It seems impossible to me that the average person can have complex thoughts and think them through with words alone.
The only “sense” I have in my head is “hearing”. I can make a wide range of sounds in there. Thankfully it’s not constant. I do have “metal images” I just don’t “see” anything. The only time I’ve ever “seen” anything in there was when I was high.
Im an artist with aphantasia. I think what drew me to art was being a child unable to imagine things that i wanted to, if i wanted to see a cool guy with a sword, i would have to physically make it on paper because i couldnt represent it in my head. I really think thats what drew me to art from an early age
I only heard about aphantasia when I was 40. I have never been able to visualise anything, but I was an avid reader since I was 5 and it surprised people when I finally mentioned this. I also had an active imagination and people thought I could see things, but I never did. I actually use struggle to play pretend because I need something close to whatever concept I am dreaming up (i.e. I can't just imagine I have a dress on; I have to be wearing one, but I could imagine it was blue but not that it was a princess dress if it was a tutu). I was never envious of anyone and actually just assumed people exaggerated when they said they could see it. When I studied meditation I use to hate visualisation, and now I know why. I lived with it and it was never an oddity to me until I found out that others didn't experience it like I did.
to me aphantasia is exactly like mental blindness, I'm fully aware of what I'm imagining, but I cannot see it. I say that because I would think it's similar to what a blind person's imagination is like. I agree with him when he says that I can have a "mental image" in my mind and do tasks like mental rotation, but there is absolutely no visual aspect. imagine a painting on the wall. to me its just a wall with a bump on it, but if im not touching the wall i would think that its just a flat wall, because i cant see the bump. this is even true in my dreams, I am fully aware of everything in my surroundings, even when I'm in a dark underground place with no light, and my awareness is tied to my location, so I don't know what's happening around corners or through walls, but there is no detail to anything. nobody has faces, there is no visual at all, it's almost like I exist in the third person. I'm aware of where I am and where everything else is and aware of what's happening and how things exist in the space, but I'm not limited to my field of vision and I am not able to make out any details that would require vision. even when I'm interacting with people that I know i cant make out their faces or clothing or any other details that would require eyesight to discern. not only this but I'm very inept at trying to make 2 dimensional sense of the 3 dimensional "image" I have in my mind. in the beginning of the video when you showed a mental rotation puzzle it was instantly obvious to me that they were the same object (i looked at them and didnt have to think about it or rotate them, i just looked at them and at glance thought they are clearly the same), but when trying to picture or draw the details on an object or in a scene from a specific perspective absolutely all detail is lost because there is no color or vision that I can use to tell where a contour or object ends and another begins. the best I can do is outlines, but details are completely lost on me. I can carefully design a car in my mind, lay out an engine bay, and be aware of how each individual component fits with the others in space. I'm very good with packaging and the 3 dimensional tetris when putting boxes and items into the back of a car or truck. I can completely and tangibly "visualize" all kinds of 3 dimensional shapes and interactions, but there is no perspective like you would get if you were looking at it, I'm "seeing it" from all angles and my awareness is fully 3 dimensional, like I'm a 4 dimensional being looking at a 3 dimensional image so that I can see everything from every possible angle at once. this is why mental rotation is silly to me. in the context of an engine bay I can rotate the turbo to make sure that the inlet and outlet pipes fit with the engine and the wheel wells, but the shape of the turbo doesn't change, so if there's 2 images I don't need to rotate it to know that it's the same turbo because when I look at an image the shape in my mind is clear, and since there is no perspective the shape is the shape and they are either the same or they aren't. the same applies to all of my senses, I can't imagine sounds, can't imagine smells, but when things are happening in a dream I'm aware of what people are saying, aware of what happened when someone slams a door even if I don't "hear it." my memories are much the same as my dreams and memories, I only remember what was significant to me at the time, so if someone said something I will remember the meaning of what they said but not the exact phrasing of it or where we were at the time, depending on how significant those details are. if it is significant that we were in class when it happened I'll remember it, but I still can't "picture" the classroom much less what other people in the room were doing or even where we were in the classroom, unless for example we were hiding from the teacher and to me that was significant enough to remember, or someone else was doing or saying something funny.
I also have an incredibly good sense of direction because of this, I always know where I am relative to where I have been in a 3 dimensional space (unless I'm somewhere new AND not paying attention)
for me the mental rotation still takes place, but it's unnecessary and it's not something I do to identify objects, just something I do while completely a 3d puzzle for example, rubix cubes are hard for me though because the colors mean nothing in my imagination so I can't keep track of them using my mental image
I agree with this 😂 literally how i sorta describe it to people. Im amazing at directions. it's almost as if I've been somewhere i can always remember how to get there. Without any images, it doesn't seem to be happening automatically.
I just get very vague bits of shapes in my mind, everything is mostly shrouded in darkness. And as soon as I try to concentrate on it, it gets harder to see. My dreams are like that as well, it is like 50-80% of the information is missing. What happened one time though is that I got pushed in my dream and suddenly everything popped with colour and it was like real life for a few seconds. This was a very surreal experience and I still wonder what happened there. Also didn't really understand what backwards masking was about. In the first image I knew it was a spider, the second one I thought it was a bunny in a cup. But what does it tell me, how did that relate to the video?
As an artist, people are always shocked when I tell them I don't come up with a mental image of what I want my piece to look like when it's finished, I just kind of go with the flow. I'm now just realizing that I have Aphantasia. I always wondered why I wasn't able to mentally create images in my mind. Thanks for the information. Very interesting stuff.
I totally agree with this . Although I have aphantasia, I am able to manipulate my mind and even other processes in my brain in strange ways that other people claim they cannot, yet I objectively experience these processes. I have found that hard determinism has helped me understand a lot. I do love music, as some people on here said, I used to have very vivid dreams.. horrible horrible ones. I listen to solfeggio frequencies on my tv while I sleep in the other room during the night and I have gone from not having any mental imagery to being able to somehow m occasionally have a slight , abstract images but they are.. I can’t explain it. I do experience synesthesia when I attempt to recreate the apple in the form of feeling an invisible apple sitting on my skin for example. It has led me to have insights on things I never thought I would. Once you define consciousness it ceases to be that. So my imagination is very malleable and bizarre things that I can’t seem to find any info on, in every other aspect except visually. I think you are onto something here for sure. I can seem to visualize quantum physics in a strange way, like invisible walls. I watched a video recently where someone suggested our consciousness is quantum. When I access that field or whatever I.., I can’t explain. . Ahhh
@@TatuCarreta quantum physics is our true nature. If we are not fully accepting of our nature and the nature of all things, we limit our consciousness and it gets separted, causing what some people experience as the unconscious mind somehow controlling us, or the subconscious bubbling up and doing one thing to another. We are on the path to, as a collective, as more and more realize we are all essentially the same, just with different interests that can unify or separate us based on our interpretation of said interests. Political structures and organized belief systems know this, and use it to control us. Our unconscious mind is part of a us. Raise it and make it equal, and you can then a utilize your subconscious and be the writer of your own existence, and not have to be subject to anyone else’s. Although, seeing as we are one mind, separated by beliefs and ideas, we are partly there.. once the quantum computer race is won, and there are no longer any more secrets, which one country is going to do inevitably… just think. We have been on a binary system of computing, and we are biological computers that know the buttons. During the time we until technology makes the leap from binary to quantum, we can use our nature/biology to make reprogram our past binary ways of thinking to align with nature. It’s happening, and if you don’t pay attention it will happen anyway.
I have the same.. draw? affinity? for quantum topics, when they are explained to me they just click but my friends are all very confused when I try talking about it, ive explained to them in every way i can think of, sent them to the reading or video I was talking about, they just do not get it. Thinking about the ways in which different quantum effects connect, the things they have in common, I feel like my spirit has touched another plane, the energy there is amazing, i yearn to understand more of the topic. We live in a time of incredible advancements in nearly every field, but consciousness study and quantum mechanics have made some real leaps and bounds even since I started following them, yet still I wish we knew far far more than we do. I really think whatever is causing the strange effects we see with quantum jumping/tunneling is the key to multitudes of other advancements in countless places, it’s just an idea I feel in my very core is true.
I love reading stories, especially action fantasy genre, and I can imagine some epic sword and magic battle in my mind no problem. I just discovered aphantasia recently, and I wonder how different my life would've been up till then if I had the condition, maybe I would've thought that these stories are boring AF without knowing that people can visualise what is being described in them lol
I used to have aphantasia but I taught myself to visualise (it’s unreliable though, I can’t always visualise on command and the image quality varies). Visualising made no difference to my appreciation for stories. I always loved reading, to me the words are as impactful as a picture. They’re like another sense of their own! Weirdly I don’t always like visualising a story because you often have to fill in details with your own ideas. Sometimes I just want the author’s words. The mind is so funny, if I’d always visualised I would never think of it that way!!! Most authors probably expect readers to visualise the story!
I have aphantasia and memory issues, the very few things I remember, I can’t even picture them, it’s only data. That’s why I take photos of everything, and keep boxes of everything I buy, and track everything down to my heartbeat and what I do every half an hour every day. Data owns a huge part of my life. If you want to kill who I am, you just have to thrash away my external HDD, which I really need to make a backup of... THIS is the proof of me being alive, it has all the pictures and data of the things I don’t want to forget, not my brain.
When i closed my eyes I saw an apple that kept changing colors from green to red and back like flickering...i realized this was because i didnt have information on its colors...
I'm fairly weak on visualisation but fairly strong I think on somatic and auditory imagination. I can "feel" the texture of a tissue for example, if inexactly. I can recall voices and music fairly clearly, replay a song with accuracy mostly limited by memory. If a qualia is to be thought of as an integration of cognitive inputs, then virtual qualia like imaginary experiences can be described in similar terms relative to all inputs simulated internally. If that makes sense.
lol i write about that, is a very good way to see the mental manifestations, like we have an analogue perception and a digital one, we can mentally taste, smell, view, hear, feel, and even all the perceptions at the same time. aphantasia is like a broken cable...
Fascinating. i've known I have aphantasia for some time, but this is the first time i've heard an explanation that explains my experience. Specifically, I can "see" what are called"flashbulb" memories but cannot simply choose to see things like the apple example. I spent all of school just confused when people said things like "close your eyes and picture " it just seemed like nonsense until i found this condition and realized everyone has a minds eye. But, this idea that those with aphantasia just don't experience internal imagery consciously explains to me how "flashbulbs" aren't just some confusing curveball invalidating my experience.
My curiosity comes when people don't have an internal monolog or dialog, I've only met a few people who don't habe this function and they all seem to make poor or impulsive social decisions, I wonder if they can run conversation scenarios in their head even, I've asked some of them how they think of things and they unfortunately the three I've met aren't super good at explaining things well either...
I think another issue with consciousness studies is that we haven’t scientifically studied psychadelic experiences, it’s a difficult task but I think one that needs to be studied to fully understand what consciousness is
we need to do it by our self if the goverments dont aprove the researchs. Some like psilocibine, pure lsd or DMT, are very powerful drugs but no big damage, actually are great and positive results! helps us to know what we are
Fooor suure, this is my biggest gripe with consciousness studies. What is the reason for this? Do countries not let you research illegal substances or what? There are definitely places in the world where they do it. Do the scientists themselves avoid it? I'm personally really interested in what Astral Projection (the next level after lucid dreaming), is and I think that it would definitely unlock some big unknown knowledge about consciousness. I've heard it explained as different states of consciousness: Dream Awareness Experience - you're unaware that *you*'re dreaming, and you're not the real you, with all your memories and being Lucid Awareness Experience - you are aware that you're dreaming, but you're still not really the real *you* Astral Awaremess Experience - you're BOTH, aware that you're dreaming, AND, you're the real, full, *you* I wonder, how do these 3 interact with the main one?: Awareness Experience - you're AWAKE, not dreaming, and you're you, fully conscious and aware that you're conscious. I think the field of Neural Science is vastly under-researching the state of dreaming and how it influences our ego. And then this one combines quite well with the field of studying psychedelics, "mind-altering drugs". And there likely lies the key to quite a big chunk of "how the brain works". I wrote this while high, sorry.
@@Katatonyathe problem is doing it in a way that is more broadly useful. individual experience is hard to pin down and quantify. plus getting funding for such a project could be a hard sell if you went "we're getting people high as shit and writing down what happens". as far as i know there's some research on psychedelics, and how it could be used to treat some mental illnesses (anxiety, depression, dunno what else) but not specifically on how it relates to the idea of consciousness. on a not-so related note, astral projection is a load of bull, but your definition of it seems to differ from the more popular one. Can you elaborate on what it means to be the "real you" and why you're not the "real you" when you lucid dream?
@@monkqp the cultist version of astral projection definitely sounds like a load of bull, but people like to sugar coat everything in life, it's probably how our brain works (hence religion, makes you feel special and not just a blob of cells). Thing is, A LOT of people experienced this Astral thing, and I know a few personally even. If you ask any of them for details of the experience, it matches, to what people on the internet say, to what people in other cultures say, etc. The CIA even did experiments on it. It definitely exists imo. Do you actually leave your body? Most likely not lol. Does our brain have some immense hidden potential? Most likely yes imo. And I think some psychedelic drugs bypass the difficulty of getting an astral experience, but it's like going into it ultra drunk. I stumbled upon a subreddit called AstralAcademy where the author wrote a book explaining his views and techniques on Astral Projecting, his definition is what I used, it's way more realistic and down to earth, stripped down from any unnecessary cultist links. Here's how his book explains your question: "it’s best described as you being the actor in a play, but being fully aware that you’re the person playing the part, not the person in the play" -- is what an astral experience is The difference from the lucid experience is that while in a lucid dream, you become aware that you're dreaming, but you don't become aware of much more than that, you're still kinda in a dream state. I.E - you don't really become aware that you're the person playing the part, you're still the person in the play, not the real you reading this comment. I think the author also claims that all 3, dreaming, lucid dreaming and astral projection, take place in the same space. The only thing that's changing is your awareness level. That's also an interesting way to view it. I myself only experienced lucid dreaming and many failed astral dreaming attempts. Have some wild sleep paralysis stories though. I never really gave it a full shot though, was always busy with stuff irl and couldn't concentrate on this. This book of his sounds really promising though, if anyone's interested find the subreddit and there should be a post with the downloadable book somewhere on there.
As a creative person who experiences Aphantasia, this is an amazingly relevant... When Ketamine is more available worldwide, we will discover much more!, thank you both so much for your research and work.
I have aphantasia. No i can’t imagine this or that so don’t make me try. It literally feels like my head is empty, yet i can still “see” imagery, it’s just not like i can picture it in my hand for example. It’s in the back of my mind but i can’t bring it out into the real world as some people might be able to do. I don’t know if it’s genetic or not, my mom can see imagery and she was surprised when i told her about it.
Cannot imagine being unable to visualize things in my mind, when I visualize stuff its always in easily manipulable high quality images that can be animated and the like
@@nikkireigns As someone with aphantasia, but not a very total one, it literally feels like my brain is burning a lot of calories for me when I try really hard to imagine things, and all I get is very faint shadowy lines and shapes in a very foggy abysmal void, so I imagine someone with a full one would get drained easily.
@@SamGarcia do you find that you’re good at things like math and science? I’ve always struggled with those but love reading and writing and art. Just curious if there might be a correlation there somewhere
@@nikkireigns While I do love math and science, I can't do math in my head, I do it with pen and paper, because I have to image the symbols to do it in my head. There might be some correlation, but simply, I just find that people with aphantasia simply think outside our head (like the pen and paper math I just said) compared to people who think inside their head. I have an internal dialogue, so I talk to myself in my head, but apparently, some people don't have an internal dialogue, and I believe they talk to themselves out loud with their mouth instead to make up for that. So really, anything you can do in your head with images, we can/try to do outside our head. If you try to make an image in your head, well, we have to make with our hands a real statue outside our head.
I once had a lucid dream where I wanted to test the limits of the human minds ability to recreate reality. I studied my hands and saw that no detail was missing from them. I went over to the grass and pull some of it out so that I might see every spec of it. I saw it all, no particular was too small for my mind to simulate. I looked around and there was nothing wrong with anything. How frightening it must be to hallucinate in real life, knowing how well the mind simulates reality.
![The moment we stopped understanding AI [AlexNet]](/img/n.gif)
I knew some people doing research on aphantasia in a lab I was a part of in my undergrad. Some of the things that stuck out to me:
- Many people with aphantasia report having vivid dreams, suggesting that there must be something about being awake that inhibits that process of visual imagery
- This is very clearly a spectrum. Some people have no imagery, some see vague shapes or shadowery imagery, and others have very vivid images.
- The object rotation test may not be a very good measure of phantasia as it is possible that other sensory modalities are being used to solve it (some people have described solving that problem through a very vivid somatosensory/proprioceptive imagination).
Good points, especially the last one. People describe all different strategies for mental rotation, whether they're aphantasic or not. Maybe they're rotating them in a different sensory modality...
I guess im the few cases of aphantasia where dreams look the same as when i visualize 😂
"Vivid" dreams does not actually indicate they visualized anything while dreaming. When you tell someone with aphantasia to visualize something - to THEM they do. They "visualize" (imagine) the conceptual representation of that thing. Its not until you compare specific cases between people that they realize theit "visualization" is different. So maybe dreaming is conceptual and not using i ages in their mind, which to THEM could still be interpreted as "vivid".
Yes. I don't have aphantasia proper, but I do definitely have some degree of it. And this give rise to these very weird things about my cognition. So for example I can often imagine an object or recollect a scene, and yet I cannot tell you what the colors are. It's not that I didn't see some kind of image in my mind, I did. And it wasn't in black and white, it was definitely in colors. But I still often cannot tell you those colors. And even weirder is when this kind of unclarity relates to other features of an image, like size and shapes and stuff. It's like I often have a kind of "sketch" rather than a full-blown image in my mind. But it's unlike any real world sketch you could actually produce in the real world because it's often lacking details that you simply cannot get away from producing in a real-world image. And obviously I rarely recall or imagine anything in moving pictures, and absolutely not anything that takes more than a few seconds. I can visualize in moving pictures (for a few seconds per go) if I really try, but it's really difficult and taxing for my brain to do so I prefer not to. And that really makes it weird that when I dream it can often be so very visually convincing in a way that my waking imagination is completely unable to imitate. But it just occurred to me that maybe that plays a part in why I tend to so completely forget my dreams almost immediately when I wake up.
That task about shapes being the same shape from different angles. No I don't see a moving picture in my head to figure it out. But I do have a kind of sense of 3-D space, which is sort of what I use for such questions. So I have a kind of spatial "movie" for that sense of shapes and position, but I don't see that stuff, it's not a visual thing. It seems like it's more about my mind saving energy. I use these more primal 3-D-space sense. instead of translating back and forth between the visual and the spatial, I take in the visual and translate it into spatial and do my spatial movies in my mind and then spit back the result, preferably without having to translate it back to visual because it takes more effort. In this case the question is rather why more visual people be so determined to perform a movie in their head when that's just extra calculations that don't need to be there.
I feel like I solve it intellectually, like perhaps I would be less likely to walk away not consciously knowing there was an additional jutting cube on the left side, where as other solvers of the problem may be able to never specifically think about the structure, and simply rotate it for the answer.
I have no ability to visualize things in my head.
I'm so envious of everyone else!
I used to think the term "picturing something in your mind" was just a hypothetical saying.
really? so if I tell you to imagine a tiger you won’t be able to?
@@hansalce147hahahaha
Can you imagine a spider crawling on your skin? Do you dream?
You can learn it
everyone Ive ever talked to about this that claims to have it misunderstands that we dont see it the same way we really see and actually do visualize things exactly the same.
So i have mind blind aphantasia,.I just want to let other people know if you also have it, to make sure you have lots of photos of those close to you. I recently lost my parents and I struggle to picture their faces, which I felt ashamed and frustrated about for some time until I found good photos of them both. Good luck
I felt the exact same way after the loss of my best friend and other people close to me, I’m glad that someone else out there shares this experience
Yeah I can't picture peoples faces in my mind. I can create a sort of "feeling" of what they are like. Their smile, their personality, what it's like to look at them. But I can't literally see their faces in my mind. I'm quite good at remembering people by their faces though. Like I recognize people when I see them. I'm much better at that than remembering names of short time acquaintances.
I’m sorry for your loss. But just curious you had to “find” pictures of them? It’s 2024 so that’s shocking that you didn’t have easily accessible pictures of them
@@cadenelson891 I am from the older gen, didn't have a camera phone growing up in the 80's then I moved away for work so didn't have all the time to see them. Plus I didn't give it much thought as I just didn't think about the consequences (it will never happen to me thinking!).
Tbf, even those of us who dont have aphantasia need photos for that purpose. Maybe it's just me, or maybe I'm on some aphantasia spectrum, but the images in my mind are fleeting. Not clear and steady like looking at a photo or a video, but more like glimpses that that never let you take in the full picture. Older memories become vaguer and people's faces become more akin to abstract ideas, sensations or partial images.
I have aphantasia, yet have had a successful career as a visual artist. When I close my eyes, I see nothing at all. When I'm designing something, it starts as a verbal description in my head that gets more and more elaborate the more intricate or detailed it gets. I do have vivid, visual dreams though, and an incessant inner dialogue. I envy that some can see things in their minds visually, even if I can't begin to imagine what that must be like!
I do a decent amount of 3d modelling as a hobby, and for me at least it comes down to "vibes-based" design (which I can do easily and immediately) vs. "planned out" design (getting a complete picture in your head and then recreating it, which I can't do at all.
And as for dreams, it always feels like they're visual, but I realize a lot of them is just auditory and proprioceptive (where I can feel how my body feels and the feedback I would receive from touch/pressure/muscle tension and pushback/etc.) and for whatever reason my brain is just totally ok with not having visuals while acting as if they're there.
You cant look at something then just close your eyes and remember what you just saw?
@@Farlayy Remember, yes, but not visually. It would be like sitting at your desk and then the lights go out and it's pitch black. You could remember roughly where items on your desk are even if all you saw was black.
When I close my eyes, even in a totally dark room with blindfold on, (I've tried - use the blindfold regularly for hemisync) I see a sea of glowing specks, perhaps millions of them, too small to focus on & they seem to pop in & out in milliseconds. Note these are not the 'flares' (phosgenes?) people talk about. If I focus a bit I see them eyes open as well - it's like a transparent fog of glowing specks between my eyes & what I am looking at.
Also if I focus, there seems to be 3 or 4 tiny lines (also flashing on & off) right in the centre where the perceptual focus is.
And yes, I'm also aphantasic - see post above here.
what type of artist are you? it's easy to imagine someone with aphantasia painting landscapes, or something from a reference, but it'd be interesting to know if you could do concept art or drawing from imagination in general?
I found out during a therapy session that I had aphantasia. My therapist told me to imagine something, and I got frustrated over people always saying that as if I'm meant to see pictures in my goddamn head. Turns out that's exactly what some people do. We ended up doing the apple test as well, which colour it was, what kind of table was it, what happens when it hits the ground. I visualised nothing.
As an avid reader, it absolutely ruined me for a few weeks, knowing that people had the ability to visualise the story they're being told, the locations and the people that inhabit them. It's truly surreal. I made my peace with it not long after, realising my inner monologue would do more heavy lifting. I'd have to describe scenarios or things in excrutiating detail to "visualise" it, but it would still be words inside my head, and not pictures. I think it has helped me develop a more logical way of thinking over the years, although I would love to try the grass on the other side.
Another tidbit that may be entirely personal and/or unrelated, but psychedelics (mushrooms especially) provide me with no visual hallucinations. I've never seen distortions, colour shifts or any of the funky stuff you'd expect alongside a trip.
Same here! I didn't find out during therapy but my visual experience is the same
really? even if you eat 4 grams of gold cap psilocybin ?
@God0fTime yes, I can appreciate patterns more and colours are vibrant etc, but there are no visuals
@@breebisshop7325 Same for me but it wasn't always like that. I only had vivid visual hallucinations when I took shrooms for the first time. Years later just some funny moving patterns. Now nothing at all. And my imagination is also not nearly as vivid anymore as it was when I was younger. I could listen to music in my head so clearly that I didn't need to annoy anyone. I could imagine all kinds of stuff. I think it's just something one needs to practice. Use it or lose it.
About the hallucinations from psychedelics though, I guess it's the opposite: Use it too often and lose the magic.
I would have gone insane if I lacked the ability to visualise things. My childhood was painful enough and not being able to escape it would have sucked.
"They don't lack mental imagery of an apple, they lack the counciouss experience of the mental imagery of an apple"
Trully mindblowing.
how so?
@tannerblake7745 check this somewhat related seeing without consciousness
@@tannerblake7745 Basically because it shows that conciousness is a separate thing from the mental objects itself. Also, you could say that conciousness has some dimensionality to it: things enter this virtual space, but they're not the space itself.
Just nitpicking
Isn’t that a distinction without a difference?
I have hyperphantasia. Until a few years ago I thought everyone visualized the same way. The strengths for me are often process based, where I can run physical simulations in my head backwards and forwards fairly rapidly. I often solve mechanical problems at work, and coworkers think I "got lucky", but the reality is that I did the same problem-solving anyone would only I did it in my head. Some people can memorize texts/statistics/formulas much easier than I can, and choose that skillset to follow processes. I visualize in 3D. Pros and cons to the entire spectrum. Mutual respect is key.
Same here. I have visualized moving complex assemblies with different textures etc. Helps a lot with running machinery business
again, not a real condition. you are just a normal person with a normal brain except you use it. most people are extremely lazy thinkers. you're focusing, nothing more
HOLY shit, I thought that was normal!
@@fullyawakened lol is true, is just a matter of training. the best way is meditation and lucid dreaming!
Amazing !!
I have aphantasia, and the way he's describing it is close to how I feel. He mentioned often times we can do the task and just not be aware of it. I've described my memories as a weird two party hive-mind where anytime I need to recall something, the memory guy goes and watches it, and I inherently know everything about it - but I never see the memory. I can only tell you im thinking about it. I know it's there.
To expand on this, I feel like it's an autopilot adaptation. I don't often need really think about the task... I just stare at it and then an answer appears. It's so bizaare to put into words.
Do you ever meditate? As someone who have vivid imagination, meditation is such a chore but rewarding, if I manage to observe my feelings, inner talk, and mental images. I thought someone with aphantasia would have advantage to experiencing emptiness and decategorization, thus enter the zen state of 'common mind' where you could be enlighten by doing everyday task (satori).
@@narraliveproject2576 do you refer to that state where one goes into a state where it's like they are nothing experiencing everything?
I can imagine but do this too.
This sums up pretty well what happens with me too. Interesting idea and way to phrase it.
@@blizzard1198 That would be too far, just experiencing the here and the now without mental disturbance. I tend to get lost when day dreaming or even when imagining a concept from the written passage. I find it hard to not get distracted by this active imagination, when I want to write story from previous scenery, my mind become dull, I cant put the right words, and feel exhausted.
Honestly as a hyperphantasic, I find aphantasia just as fascinating and hard to understand. Like y'all can conceptualize all of these things about an object without picturing it? That's amazing! I cannot separate the two in my head at all
When asked to visualize an apple, my mind sees no apple. My mind remembers that there are red apples, green apples etc. Maybe someone took a bite out of it, maybe there is a worm sticking out of it. All scenarios that I have looked at previously and remembered. I can invent any kind of apple I want using descriptors that I have memorized, but I can't see it.
Im the exact same thing too, but for me, its like i draw it quickly in my head. I cannot see it when opening and closing my eyes, but I have a mental image of it. Not vivid, but can like, draw it? Its weird for me. I have verg good imagination, but not vivid imagery. Which is weird. My mind is excellent at like, re-drawing things i used to see / remember. I can imagine it well, but never like, visual it when opening or closing my eyes.
Its like i cannot actually see it there, but imagine like its there and draw it. When i try to, lets say, multiply 23x48, my mind draws them fast, its like: ok so that's 48, under it 23, and i calculate it. I can see my writing, but not in a vivid way. It's like, i "imagine" i am actually seeing it in a vivid way, but i dont. But when i am calculating it, i forget so quickly what were the numbers im multiplying.
Do you forget what green looks like when you close your eyes?
You aren't literally seeing it. It's more like memory recall than vision.
@@Nebukanezzer so when someone sees a unicorn with dragon wings. Thats memory recal
😂😂😂 ♤@@rohanking12able
I realized I have aphantasia mid-last year. The way he said "I think these people don't lack mental imagery, they lack the conscious experience of mental imagery" REALLY resonated with me. "Mental blindness" I think is an appropriate description of this condition. The way I've described it to others is that it's similar to the movie Inception, and the concept it establishes of dreaming in layers. It's almost like I'm thinking about visualizing. My thoughts all feel a layer deep, below this mental blindness. When I try to visualize something, an activity I have to do daily for work, it's like I'm thinking about the concept of visualizing. Like the visualization is happening and I am aware that it is happening, but I can't see it, I just know the resulting data. In the same way that those who are visually blind have their other senses heightened, I feel almost like I perceive these visualizations through other mental senses if that makes any sense. It's like complex thoughts, visualizations, and forms come to me through knowing and not through seeing. This does mean however that "mental noise" and distraction can get in the way at times. If I'm going through something, have anxiety, or I'm in an environment that makes me unable to focus it takes me longer to get this data or could possibly prevent me from getting it at all.
I've also realized, if anyone else has aphantasia and is reading this, that these "mental senses" can be trained through practice. Certain types of meditation have helped a lot.
Be specific.
What kinds of meditation?
Seconded - what kind of meditation are you talking about, any examples?
I think i got it!
The imagination process happens in your head, but you can only see the resulting information and not the process itself.
Kinda like seeing a description of an image, but not the image itself.
Do you also get "different sensations"? I have tried to indulge more in my fantasy and try to visualize scenarios, places etc. The closer I "feel" to conscious visualisation of imagery, the more of a tingling, energy rushing sensation I get in my forehead/top of my head. Has anyone else experienced this?
(Also the closest I get to visualizing is really imagining that I am there. Like in a dream. It wont really work if I just say to myself "picture a horse in your mind")
Aphantasia and lack of an inner monologue have made me wonder if at least some aspects of what we call consciousness are just the screen on which the movie of our subconscious mind plays, in a manner of speaking.
After years of observation, ignorant of the aphantasic condition of my partner coupled with no inner dialogue, a few GIANT advantages were present. 1 Fast thinking, reading, and typing (made me feel as if my own intelligence was slow). 2 A swift recovery from stress (especially after a fight, was crazy making but honest). 3 Being in the moment. 4 Luck 5 Extreme charisma 6 No hesitation.
She felt lesser because of it, but in actuality, it is her greatest strength. She explained how she remembered in summaries, would read by absorbing the information rather than hearing it in her head, and she was extremely smart. The main disadvantages were "out of sight out of mind" being way more relevant. She thought completely different, faster, and intuitively. It was no facade for a subconscious image renderer.
I relate to so much of this. Good description
Being an artist with aphantasia is really hard sometimes, since I can *think* of a pose idea that I want for something, but I can't actually... put that on a canvas, if that makes sense. I can think of it, and how I wish for the limbs to be positioned, but I can't actually visualize it, which makes it hard to actually.. put it on paper.
That's why I like to take pictures of myself doing poses resembling the idea I had in mind and use them as references. Total life saver
Honestly, I think aphantasia made me a better artist in a way. I totally agree with what you said, and it does get so annoying. But if you think about it, being forced to use a reference every time I draw meant my drawins always had good anatomy. And by studying real life your art will be constantly improving.
getting one of those poseable wooden dolls can be a great help.
yeah, I'm a computer artist with aphantasia and have your same frustrations.
it's really weird, i'm an artist who has the opposite problem, i see images when i listen to music/ hear sounds/ associate sounds with colour and images, i can imagine anything in any particular position, and it helps me with my art to be able to see a 2d character as if they were 3d. tho my best friend sees absolutely nothing. i asked her about it and she describes thinking and imagining like "reading a script of events" but not seeing any words or hearing them, it's so bizzare
@@Fintybaibai420may you have synesthesia?
I have strong Aphantasia. While awake, I have no imagery associated with thought. However I have the ability to conceptualize heavily. As a child, I thought when people said they had a "Mental Picture" of something it was only an analogy. I have extremely vivid dreams, so I have the ability to Imagine. Perhaps there is a lack of connectivity between the concious and unconcious mind. I am a visual artist, and can draw from memory, with accuracy, but not visualize things internally. I would love to speak with anyone who is interested and discuss further.
I’m like that too. My dreams are more real than reality, and while I can’t draw or paint well, I create textile art with a good eye for colors that contrast well. I’m 67, and just realized in the last year that I can’t visualize while awake, but I can construct an idea of any object in question, while “visual field” is black.
Very interesting! Its funny that youre an artist. For me, theres was a time when i liked to draw, but since i can imagine things, my motivation to draw dimishes, because i get satisfied in imagining an image, instead of bringing it to life.
Can you imagine other sense modalities, like sounds, smells, and tastes? Another aphantasiac here said she could
I have total blind aphantasia. Only found out about it several years ago. I also thought “mental images” were a figment of speech.
I think with an internal monologue and thus can hear audio sounds/ music internally. I rarely remember my dreams but when I do they are vivid and I have experienced several lucid dreams before. I also used to make art and preferred doing very detailed drawings and paintings, possibly because of lack of internal imagery.
Can you draw from written or verbal descriptions? I would want to visualize the entire drawing before starting. Even with a verbose description of something very complex, I'd want to visualize the whole thing at a high level, sketch that first, then integrate detail as I'm able to visualize it.
I can visualize in an extremely detailed way, and can "feel" emotions that others do (cringing to death kind of thing but with all kinds of emotions), as well as other sensory imagination. It's no cake walk, it's actually a detriment sometimes.
The funny thing is, I can't draw for shit. I'm sure I could get reasonably okay at it, but it's not a natural talent of mine. I can make things like a desk or chair with few problems, but I couldn't sculpt without a lot of work. I think it might be that drawing and sculpting are the kind of thing where if you mess up it's hard or impossible to undo (getting the proportions wrong or hitting a fault in the stone, etc).
Another interesting thing is that I'm great at getting the gist of what people want when they don't know English as well as I do, but I am nearly incapable of using other languages to communicate very effectively. I spent 4 years in highschool in spanish class but all I came away with were a generally better understanding of how to conjugate in several languages and the truth that vocab matters more than teachers say it does 😜
I have aphantasia and the best way to describe it is this: look at an object in the room. Now imagine licking that object. Now look at the floor, your doorknob, the grass outside. You can vividly imagine the sensation of licking objects. That feeling of knowing innately how something would feel too lick is exactly how imagining without visualizing feels.
So.. you don't see things in your mind, you lick them? If I were to tell you to imagine a penis...
can you do mental math?
@@stinkydoober I mean, yes, but I never loved math as a subject so I wasn't very good at it. Surprisingly though I was really good at Geometry and Trigonometry, which feel like they would benefit from a "minds eye" the most.
I also write poetry, I'm working on a novel, I play music and write songs.
I gotta say about 8 years ago when I found out about aphantasia I was really blown away by the fact that I was in the minority. Suddenly all the times in school where a teacher would ask everyone to close their eyes and imagine something made way more sense. Everyone else was actually seeing things!
That’s a great analogy, I think I understand exactly what you mean
Underrated comment
This is why I always loved reading. Everything turns into a movie in my head still. I recreate everything described and it’s why I get disappointed with some movies made from books because they leave out a lot of information or changes things.
I have aphantasia.
I love reading too, you'd think because I can't actually picture or see anything from the book in my head I wouldn't enjoy it.
But strangely I do.
Sometimes though when I really pay attention to the fact I'm reading words though I have a hard time focusing. It's so odd lol.
I make up stories in my head all the time too, but it's like speaking the words as if telling or writing a story without actually seeing anything.
I remember reading of mice and men in English 9th or 10th and I always pictured things/scenarios in my head and I love it “feels like my own world” but sometimes when I see an actual concept from an artist or someone else I think, huh that’s now how I imagined it, I remember always hearing Lenny in a certain type of way and picturing how he looked whenever I would read it in my head
i dont enjoy reading, i have no visual mental imagery ahha
After realizing I have aphantasia, I realized this is why I didn't like reading. It always felt like a chore to me. I wondered why people didn't watch movies instead of reading LOL
I think I actually enjoy reading more than movies because I can’t visualize. I get overwhelmed by too much sensory information at once and often have a very hard time figuring out which details I’m meant to process and remember. With books, it’s simplified. I’m told which details to focus on, and they’re already in the ‘language’ of my mind-words instead of images or other senses-so I don’t have to do as much work to process.
I do tend to skim descriptions, though, especially the first time through.
Aphantasic here.
I can hear music, sounds, and peoples voices. Visualisation seems like sorcery. I can't even understand what that would be like.
When you hear, it's still very clearly in your mind, right? Not exactly "real sound", no matter how much you focus, your ears don't feel it? That, but with the eyes... I'm sure it seems pretty wild. Some people can't grasp how having aphantasia's like, but I've gone "Well, I think without words, or many images every now and then"
Same it’s so abstract to me
@@fabiosonhandogrande1697 I played in Orchestra for 9 years. Movements of pieces I practiced will just show up. Sometimes it can be so loud/vivid it will seem like it is from the room.
Listen to something like Philip glasses Einstein on the Beach. Music and people's voices will get mixed in my head all the time. Usually I don't even know the conversation that is getting mixed.
Most of the time though you clearly know it's coming from your own head. Usually.
*Then...* I had a stroke whenever I was 35. It affected The language center of my brain. I spent about 2 years learning how to talk, read, and do math again.
My internal monologue now is chopped up and different... If feels less concise and I have aphasia all the time.
Here's something I've never been able to articulate easily.
So you know how like you miss a word or a concept and it's on the tip of your tongue but you just really can't remember it... Stroke brain feels completely different. It is like 404 not found in the subconscious.
@@PlutoniumSlumscan you visualize a light?
@@fabiosonhandogrande1697 I feel words in my ears but I know I'm thinking them lol
I acquired aphantasia after an instense and awesome hallucingenic experience when I was 19yo. Last year I tried a meditation technique where you sit in front of a lighted candle and observe it briefly, then close your eyes and try to visualise it. As soon as you can no longer picture the candle (even a very fuzzy and non-detailed picture) you open your eyes and look at the candle again.
After about 80 hours of practice over three months (40 minutes per day, every day), I went from a 2/10 visualiser to about 3-4/10. Not great but now able to create fuzzy images and briefly hold them in my mind. About six months later and it's gotten even better, up to about 6/10 now. Now when I'm playing fast-paced action video games, my mind is even showing my visual images of what might happen in the near future. It's pretty sick tbh, I love it haha.
No idea if this will work for people born with aphantasia, but after having aphantasia for 25 years and then improving, I think this technique is worth trying out. I had to slow down a lot and start with very small details of the candle, often it was more like imagining the feel of the candle, rather than actually seeing it. Also, when eyes were open, very slowly scanning in the various details of the candle, then trying to replicate the slow scanning with eyes closed.
Anyway, hope this might help someone out there. I was at peace with having aphantasia, but always wondered if maybe some day I would be able to visualise again. So I completely understand the frustration with hearing people that say 'just try x' and you can fix it. But at the same time, what have you got to lose by trying this technique?
I have to concentrate very hard to visualize anything and it is fleeting and jumbled. I think your comment is helpful
Thank you
@@carrikartes1403 yeah same
@@carrikartes1403 Yeah that's pretty much same for me before I corrected it. Could only see split-second visuals and the details and colour were extremely poor.
I can't imagine anything unless I am extremely sleep deprived or right before falling alsleep, when my body beggins to remove my admin privileges to the ability to move my body(falling into lucid dreaming). In that state and lucid dreams i see shapes or low detail locations, more towards concepts like road/hills/trees/houses occupying particular location in the vision field, but there's no color and very little texture
Yes I can only do it if I get into a deep meditative state. And its like flashes of pictures rather than me manipulating them, sometimes I see some wild stuff but I have to stay on top of practicing meditation to keep the ability so it fluctuates
you do WILD tecnique?
I’m not sure that’s imagination though. I believe that’s considered a type of hallucination called a hypnogogic hallucination. It definitely can feel similar enough to be mistaken as visual imagination though. So what you are experiencing is pretty close and sensation to what happens when people visualize something. It might even be slightly more. Though with these hallucinations, they tend to be much less controllable than visual imagination.
I can only imagine tinted looking things. Like there's a filter over everything i imagined. Like an old film, y'know. The filter is almost yellow, but not quite. A bit brownish, but when i dream. That, is when every colors came. I also lucid dream often. Not all the time, but it happens quite often enough.
I always have telekinesis as a default setting
in my lucid dream doe. It's like a clutch that my mind made up to make me realized it quicker that "this was a dream, so hurry up and do your thing".
I know what you mean, I remember I deprived myself of sleep to see what would happen and I remembered I saw this antique doll and colors were flashing, from black and white to the image being in color. I also remember seeing those geometrical/kaleidoscope looking shapes. That was crazy.
As someone with Aphantasia and a dissociative disorder, I find the way I can't visualize things feels very similar to trying to remember something that I have disassociated from. It's very interesting
i truly believe these are linked.
There it is. This is a dissociative disorder. I knew this shit was sounding too much like a mental illness to be some normal thing people have. Every person talking about it sounds off in some way so that fits. No offense guys I am just off in a slightly different way so I can tell lol.
this makes sense. i don’t have aphantasia but i do have a dissociative disorder, and i can picture an apple in my head, but if someone is describing to me an object or place or something, its like trying to recall a dissociated memory.
so like if my friend were to describe a shirt they saw at the store, i wouldn’t be able to imagine the shirt and i would just feel vaguely frustrated/confused.
sometimes even things i know about- like if a friend were to ask me about a detail on a shirt i /own/- ill still be just as lost. like yeah i know i own that shirt but idk what it looks like.
Dr. Lau is spot on. I can imagine things without seeing them. With the object rotation, in order to compare figure 1 to figure 2, and check for a match, rotate 1 into the position 2 displays, using a combination of my eyes and my imagination, and it lined up in about 2 seconds. If I closed my eyes it would be impossible to do.
Yup, I found out I had aphantasia around 10 years ago at a dinner party. Someone said wow i had to imagine/ picture myself on a beach to relax. I laughed and said so you're just saying that as a turn of phrase. He said no i am literally seeing this on my mind. 😅 i was like wait can all of you do this ? And everyone at the table said yes, i was flabbergasted. Im in it by the way. And I also use arch 😂
😂 what's n arch btw
Yes, but do you go to the beach? Also, what do they mean by "picture". How close that is in their mind to what they would exactly experience?
Are they feeling the heat of the sun on their skin, the sort of burning feeling? Hearing the sloshing of the waves and the seagulls? How far does it go?
My guess is that everything is "conditioning" if you do X a lot you can "visualize it a lot"/experience it in your mind better. The more you do it the more you can experience it. It's also about how much of "in the moment" you are. When I was younger I couldn't visualize and experience in my mind much but as I got older I could do much more. It's about learning to connect more with our senses rather than being in "thought space". The more of a thinker one is the less they are just experiencing and vice versa.
E.g., if you are imagining things in your mind you can't really think normally because you are already using your mind. E.g., when they imagine themselves on the beach do they also imagine what they are thinking as they are experiencing all that(basically exactly as if they were on the beach)? Likely not.
I do think that some people have more "active imaginations" than others and it is a spectrum but I seriously doubt people experience their imagination as if they were in reality. How could they function. I have had a few times when my mind was very "vivid" and I could not live like that constantly. I would begin to confuse my mind with reality.
E.g., before I started doing music I was very confused on how musicians could hear music in their head since I never heard any. But after doing music I can create music in my head very easily. It's conditioning. If you spend a lot of time doing something it will become more "real".
Maybe it takes doing drugs as that was probably the real turning point for me. Once you do some mushrooms and you experience a different world you realize there is far more out there and it opens your mind to the "experience". Probably any extreme situation triggers peoples minds to expand and teaches them to "think outside the box" and people that are used to living in those high intensity states of mind are just more conditioned to experience more in their own minds.
IKR "It's like wait can all of you do this"😆
I had the same experience & also flabbergasted. I thought everybody was just making it up & joking with me 😆
I love your story how you described it & wrote it 😆
You sound like a really fun person & probably the funnest person at the party 😂
Thanks for your story!
🤍😂🤍👍
when I realized it then I soon came to the understanding that people literally undress others in their minds and got really creeped out.
Also an aphantasiac Arch user, lol
I have Aphantasia and I was always so frustrated when someone said "Close your eyes and imagine X". I was always thinking what kind of bs trick that is when I can't imagine anything. After some time I've looked into it and I found out that people actually can imagine things and see them in their mind. I felt so bad, I love art, I love books, I love science and knowing how many times cooler would all these things be if I was able to imagine them just hit me like a truck. Ever since I am kinda envious of everyone who have the ability to imagine things clearly in their head.
I would also like to describe how it feels when I try to imagine things. It feels like I am only thinking in a facts. I know how apple looks, I know it's rounded, I know what kind of color it can have, etc. But I can't imagine it. I can draw it since I know the apple is rounded, I can color it since I know for a fact which colors can apple have but I can't visualize it. It feels as if I told myself ok so let's visualize an apple and task would be passed down to someone else, imagining the thing and then telling me what it looks like. I can't see it. I just for some reason know how it looks based on my knowledge.
As someone with aphantasia, whose primary job is design, I absolutely think having images in my head would be a superpower.
I've often been called "superhuman" because of my ability to solve complex engineering problems. I've come to the conclusion that we all experience life in a way that's unique to each individual. We happen to experience it with enough similarities that we can agree on most things.
This agreement becomes our agreed-upon reality.
Ultimately, we are all unique in our experiences.
One of my friends has aphantasia and still he devours books. It is so inspiring that nobody or even yourself can stop you when you're involved in such thing with enthusiasm.
it's easier to read books with aphantasia. There are no distractions and hence I've gotten really high speed reading scores. We basically treat the words like you would a math problem by using just the symbols (for example, some may imagine 2 apples and 2 apples as 4 apples OR you can just do logic with the symbols of 2+2=4 without messing with apples), we don't have to imagine or picture it.
I had a stroke that borked my ability to read books.
Before I did. I loved to read and I am aphantasic. They are basically books on tape that play in your mind symphony.
@@SamGarcia how do you know that lol
I get so bored reading all the seemingly meaningless details, I just want to know the story, the characters etc, the real meat of the story. I have a very fundamental way of looking at the narrative.
@SamGarcia do you think music conveying the meaning of the words in unison would help you get a better understanding or do you think you already comprehend enough? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question
This research excites me intellectually and devastates me personally. I’ve been progressively losing my ability to (or based on what the video describes, my *awareness* of it) visualize things in my mind as I rely more and more on dissociation to function the way I need to for a paycheck instead of the ways I enjoyed when I was younger. I also demonstrate a lot of symptoms associated with alexithymia, except I actually can identify my day to day emotions. Seems like I really am slowly dissociating my life away. Functioning normally but “spiritually” bereft.
Those are some big words damn you’re smart
@@PlutoniumSlums 😂😂 uhmmm thanks I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic
In this realm our training forgets to mention that underneath all of it you to are an "I". An I can identify with any description it chooses to be true. See, with all the I's running about; Identities are reinforced or destroyed by a form of democracy or majority belief of state of some quantified event or observation. Being aware of what you are presenting to all the others and knowing that they are not aware of what they presented to you eventually makes you feel like your imagination is gone but it's not true your imagination has moved up a step. Find where it is it might shock all of us.
Dissociating is a bad solution to whatever your problems are.
Going through the same thing. Wish I could be experience things like a child for one day
Being in the spiritual community it makes you feel like your minds eye is broken or blocked when you can't visualize.
I can feel, imagine, and sense a subject, but I can't see it as if I were looking at it with my eyes. I get bright light outlines, bright orbs and darker than black ones, but it's hard to get vivid pictures.
Yet my dreams are vivid and in color. I can use all of my senses in my dreams.
That's why I like guided meditations that say "visualize or imagine" because my imagination is off the charts.
According to 'Keylontic Science', matter is made up of a pattern of scalar waves flashing "on and off". Like binary codes.
I believe that's what I "see" when I visualize.
I work with a lot computer code, mostly C/C++. A while back, I had a revelation that I often remember code by how it _looks_ (whitespace, indentation, line lengths, etc.), and thought maybe I'm weird and other people don't think that way. I can still picture code I haven't looked at in years.
I just remember how the flow of logic "feels".
Like I just imagine a turing machine when I do assembly and stuff.
@@honkhonk8009 Oh yeah, I mostly mean for finding snippets I'm interested in, that I remember seeing or writing some time ago. I don't think Turing machine unless I'm writing brainfцck, and then for anything complicated I map the memory cell usage in comments. Assembly isn't much different thought process from C, just a lot more tedious, especially with SIMD or stack manipulation, which are the major reasons to write assembly these days. If you want something different, functional languages are cool, because they make you invert your whole thought process compared to procedural.
I'm not a coder but sometimes I simply like the way words look, not just through font choice, but stuff like ambigrams or palindromes MOW and WOW
I have aphasia yet I do the same thing
Around 12:30 he starts getting into that thing scientists do where he dismisses imagination/intuition. This is a serious flaw. Let's show this metaphorically: You come into a room where there's a bunch of puzzle pieces spread all over the floor. You and a friend try to put them together. After a while, you intuit that you're missing a lot of pieces, and you get this feeling because you can imagine, from the pieces you've seen, what the total image is. Your friend says, "No, that's not scientific. We have to derive an answer from these pieces here, which we know exist. We can't rely on hypothetical 'other' pieces."
I am 43, i didnt find out people could actually visualize things until this year. I always thought it was just an expression. 😂😂
Same…. wtf! This is so weird
4:12 I would argue that the "layman's" definition of conciousness is less about being able to respond to things and just literally being *aware* of stuff. If you are conscious of something, it doesn't mean you're responding to it, it means you are aware of it on a mental level, with the distinction being 'aware' is more about sensory perception and conscious being "it is on my mind" perception; if you are aware of a car, you possess the factual knowledge of the car's existence. If you're conscious of the car, you're actively paying attention to the idea of "there is a car".
You're spot on!!!
I think therefore I am.
I think the best way to explain what aphantasia is like is a book. Instead of visualizing the object, I describe what an apple would look like if my eyes were open. I know an apple should be red so I add 'red' as an adjective, and I just build with words until I have the scene I want
Can you explain how would you interpret something that you have never seen before and it's beeing described to you? And if don't see it can you remeber the description and tell it to others?
@@renelovemetal Not them, but aphantasic.
-Personally, I wouldn't do very well at interpreting it. I would need the description to draw a lot of parallels to things I *have* seen before, but that would only give me a vague understanding of the function, or maybe the size or shape as it relates to me or objects near me at the moment. Either way I would have no way to really imagine or conceptualize the thing, and if its something more abstract as opposed to a singular physical object I basically stand no chance.
-Probably? If I knew I was going to need to describe it to someone else later I could pay extra attention to the description given to me, and just recite that as a script. I would think it would be harder to describe it to others compared to an object I have seen before, but I assume thats the same for anyone. The point there is that describing something to others is the same as my own mental recall though. I wouldn't be drawing off a visual picture in my mind to recall the thing to describe it, I would be drawing off the conceptual description I have in my mind for it. Similar to just defining a word the way a dictionary would.
@@wooden2621 Thank you
@@renelovemetal thats a memory question not an imagination question
@renelovemetal I am notoriously bad with lists of instructions so I think they fall under the same generalization of "things I've never seen before". I keep notes for a lot of the hard-core puzzle games I play so I never lose info I stop thinking about frequently. When I read the maze runner books I never imagined what the monsters described looked like, I just thought about the adjectives used like "sticky, almost fluid, semi mechanical" and was content with that as my understanding of the monster. I still know how terrifying it should be, but I could never see it for what it truly is. Just the outline of what it could be if that makes sense
Your comments on rotating the object 01:58 are not how I do it at all. I do not rotate the object, I compare the relationships of parts of the object to get the answer. If anything I'm trying to create a new image, not manipulate the old one, which may account for the delay. I'm not 100% blind in mind, I have a large memory store, I can think about things I have seen, but creating something new is extremely difficult.
Nice, I do that too and then confirm it to myself with mental rotation.
Also, if I'm looking at an object I don't usually have a mental image of it that I'm aware of, if asked to describe it I don't use a mental image. When describing from "memory" I also may not have a mental image but simply recite the previous description. But when asked to provide new information from memory then I have to visualize it.
@@James-g3w7w It's really hard to actually know how I do things, because it's not an image I can simply describe, it's a subconcious process that I have to review if I can. Often I'll arrive at an answer without knowing how I got there, just that it's right. That used to annoy math teachers who wanted me to show my working. If X-2=5, X=7, that is my working, there are no middle steps. I'm good at maths, perhaps part of my autism, I would have to slow down and think to add extra steps.
It gets really hard as an artist though, drawing from memory or imagination is challenging until I have made a few marks on the paper.
@@Argrouk Yeah, I was thinking before you said it, this guy sounds autistic like me. When I was young everyone was impressed by my memory, but I could not memorize anything on purpose. I didn't memorize the times tables, instead I figured out that 2x2 means 2 two times and would fast add by the numbers in visualized groups. Funny, if you saw the Terrence Howard 1x1=2 on Joe Rogan, not one of the mathematicians proving him wrong said "it just means 1 one time and that's 1". Actually I had to learn word definitions for everything +=and -=take way and consider math short hand.
@@Argrouk Sorry I forgot to say I'm an artist too, when I was younger I had to see the finished product in my mind before I could draw it. An art teacher made it click for me "draw what you see not what you think you see".
Realized i had aphantasia when i told my college age daughter that I couldnt visualize her face when she wasnt around.
This schocked her as her memories are in video and she can rmemeber scents. Shes a psych major and shortly came back and told me about aphantasia after hearing about it in cognitive psych.
I always as highly suspicious of police sketches becauase there was any way i could never rememeber what a person i briefly saw when i couldnt rememebr my children's faces.
I can identify you i just cant visualize it.
Regarding the apple, I rememeber the Alt tag. Just words and symbols that describes what an apple looks like and what it sounds like biting into one and what its general shape is. I dont think i see an outline (maybe) but the calculation of what an apple is vs an orange.
Since someone might relate, I'm a writer / actor with aphantasia. It's such a funny concept to me that I have a "vivid imagination" and yet... I don't See anything in my head. In fact, I always got frustrated during acting exercises during class that emphasized "picturing" a place or thing since I couldn't actually see something in my head; that's actually exactly how I began to realize I might experience things differently than the norm.
I'm also an avid bookaholic ^^ because I enjoy worldbuilding / storytelling. I might not be able to picture the words on the page, but that doesn't mean I'm not going along on the ride with the characters. It also doesn't mean I can't worldbuild myself, which is something I've been doing for years. So I hope if anyone is an aspiring creative with aphantasia, you're not discouraged due to your mind's blind eye.
can you do mental math?
@@stinkydoober kind of. And more likely than not, you'll see me use my hands to keep track of numbers and kind of physically "draw" out equations ^^' It also takes a little longer for me to come up with the answer, I think, than other people I know and I have a habit with second guessing myself.
It also depends on the math a little. Geometry is my worst nightmare; I need paper for that. Algebra is a bit easier, especially when it's basic, and I can use my hands.
I always had issues trying to just, imagine/visualize things out of nowhere, but I never paid any attention to it until a couple of years ago, when I realized that not a single time in my life have I ever been able to produce an "original" image in my head, and whenever I am asked to think of something that is not tied to an actual memory ("think of an apple" VS "think of that apple you ate earlier"), at most, I get a very blurry and broken image that kind of flashes in my head for a millisecond and then completely fades away and I can't ever describe anything I "saw". It got me thinking of when I was a kid, and I went through all Harry Potter books, and could never ever imagine how any of the characters would look like, or the scenery, the rooms, outfits, the castle, nothing at all, and the only image I can produce, is from the movies. This has always been with me all my life... And something I just realized while writing this!!! The only times Ai have ever "seen" things that are not directly tied to a memory of something I've seen before, is either when I'm very high on hallucinogens, or very deep into meditation. The first one is the most common tho haha
Wow i think i have this, i do not see any image when i close my eyes, just have a fleeting sense of apple-ness that is gone as quickly as it arises, in fact i can actually visualize the apple better in my mind with my eyes open but even then it feels more like a memory regarding what i know about apples rather than an actual image, probably why i have always been terrible at drawing anything i cannot see.
I can imagine anything but i still cant draw anything i cannot see, not with real things at least. I can draw things i make up.
@@AmyFerguson I normally have complete blankness only when I try to visualize anything, but sometimes when im very sleepy I get an "impression" of something in just the way you're describing! Very neat! I always question myself like "wait did i just *picture* a slice of pizza?!?" but when I think back its more like I saw a millisecond after-image of a triangle that could be imagined to be a slice of pizza, there were no details or real colours, just a flash of light that was vaguely triangular and my lil creative brain went "hey pizza is triangular! Maybe that was pizza?
@@AmyFergusonthat just means you need practice. You don't have some magical condition that makes you special 😂
Bro same. I’ve always been this way and it’s super hard to explain how I remember things. I’ve always been good with numbers and remembering sequences but I don’t have a visual memory to go off of it’s like I pull the information from no where
Visualisation tends to be quite varied even amongst those who can do it, for some it is more or less vivid and some see it better with their eyes open whilst others can only do it with their eyes closed.
It could be you fall on the lower end of that spectrum and visualise better eyes open.
I have full aphantasia, and even something like a memory is not really like I can relive but just information I have access to.
For example, I would assume you know that 1+1 is 2, but I bet you don't remember learning that, it's just information you have. That's kind of how all my memories are.
How do I know if I'm picturing a red apple in my mind or if I'm just convincing myself that I am?
Trust me... If you see the red apple you can see it.
If you have aphantasia you wouldn't only say "you see nothing or a wire frame".
Maybe you don't actually exist, and you've just convinced yourself that you do.
@@xyzzyxyzzy2 Hey, do you know of any good hotels around here? Asking for a friend.
If you're not sure, then you aren't.
You’ll know if you can literally see an image. It sounds like you are probably “convincing yourself”, because you’d probably know it if you were vividly seeing a lifelike image.
When he described 2015 as "a decade ago" my heart skipped a beat but it's true
I completely disagree that it happens via disassociation. When I "rotate" the image, I am simply comparing points of the second image based on the concept of the first image. The first rotation takes less time because there are less points of difference.
Yup. I do things like pick a corner and think if something is left or right; front or back of it and then transpose that rule to the other object. It's conscious and quite manual and that's why it takes time not because it's "not conscious" as he said early in the video.
Edit: I replied during the intro. Finally at the interview. I think it's weird that he says there's no conscious experience in visual imagery. There's consciousness just more like a lack of ability kinda like people who are tone deaf. They can hear tones to some extent, they just can't reproduce them accurately or in the worst case cannot discern them accurately.
I suffer from this! My entire 47 years of life I thought everyone imagined things like me until like 8 months ago I saw a video about someone talking about Aphantasia.. I could not believe people actually could see actual images when they imagined something or like when they read books they have mini full color movies running in their heads.. I just read words and get a concept of whatever im reading in my head. I was SO mad and jealous when I found this out. I feel like I've missed out on so much..I remember growing up doing group meditation exercises and the speaker saying things like imagine a sunset or a beach and I'd always think what's the point? I'm an artist as is my whole family and my whole life I have never been able to draw things from imagination but when I look at something I can draw it really well.. Now I know why I never could draw or create newly imagined things..It pretty robbed me of my dream of working in any artistic field..You people are so lucky I'm so jealous =( I wish there was a cure
If you can't visualize nor have an inner monologue, then I have news for you: You're an NPC.
No cure needed. Nothing is wrong with you
@ashesrockstotaldrama thanks man! Yeah I know but it was a shock to feel disabled in a way after 47 years. Felt like if a person wanted to be football player their whole life and just thought they weren't talented only to find out one day they had been born without legs and no one ever told them that.
@@ashesrockstotaldrama Can't visualize (or no inner monologue) = NPC
I found out a month ago and man worst is im only 14, and you're right, im so jealous that some people can just perfectly picture things in their head, while when I concentrate on trying to imagine things its like blurred out, its like a very distant memory. when trying to imagine an apple in my head theres just like a blurred out circle kind of thing, and I dont even know if thats really imagination, and I only have slight aphantasia, or my brain filling the blanks. I dont know if I explained this well. but when I found this out I was absolutely devastated
I have the ability to foresee the future slightly . I can’t control it but I see things and tell people and the things come to be and the people cry at what happens every time when I tell them. I can also at time read peoples thoughts and am extremely lucky but not for myself always who I’m with. Wild shit for sure!
Its cool that some people don't have an inner voice, but now that I've watched this video, it might be plausible to say they do have an inner voice but it's hidden within the unconscious processes.
So my in-law I work with has neither it’s insane I asked how do you think he just saws idk I told him I have an inner monologue and he looked at me like I was crazy lmao
My buddy from work Simon and I had a conversation ab the inner monolog (he has none I have lots) and he described his thoughts closer to smells than words which is fascinating to me. He says it's because the thought is instant rather than needing to say a whole sentence in his mind, so it just feels closer to how smells work rather than speaking. I'm curious if he made that connection solely because of a lack of "noise" in his head, since my thoughts are instant as well, I just feel the urge to explain my actions to myself. I'll tell myself "you know why you're getting up why are you explaining it to yourself" and then continue explaining anyway
I really don't understand the lack of inner monolog thing. My inner voice LITERALLY NEVER shuts up. Ever. I can't imagine it not being there. My head would be so empty.
@@waterinferno2071 Yeah he described it pretty well.
I have aphantasia and but I do have an inner monologue. Weird thing is I can 'temporarily' turn this inner monologue off by focusing VERY hard at not thinking about any word, and it does feel like 'smelling'. I believe it's possible to achieve this state easier by practice of meditation.
Just to be clear, it's not that I literally smell things. Smell is similar to not verbalizing words because humans lack vocabulary to describe smell precisely. We always talk about smells by comparing them to other things, but never naming the smells themselves.
Clearly this reply is only directed to OP:
So you are an inner mute, but don't have aphantasia?
i actually remember being like 7-8 years old in the car and realizing i can do this!! for some reason i pictured lois griffin (lmao?) in front of me in the car and i was just blown away how i could "see" her but obviously she wasn't real or entirely visible to me. i thought it was so fascinating
this combined with synesthesia is almost overwhelming sometimes, but also incredibly fun and interesting! im on the spectrum so obviously my experience with sensory processing is quite intense, in my experience the ability to visualize is linked with this varying sensory experience. i wonder if this is something that has been examined?
Lois griffin 😂😂
Hey petaahhhh
I'm jealous how cool!
hahahah
I was born with aphantasia and I’ve been trying to understand the advantages. I have found some good ones!
1 - I sleep super fast, no problem at all.
2 - my meditations are peaceful and deep
3 - I live 100% in the present moment because I can’t be anywhere else!
4 - my way of thinking is quite different from others for obvious reasons
5 - I don’t traumatise as easily as I can’t picture anything.
6 - nature and art are an absolute joy for me as they are the only way I can experience beauty
7 - music is my life! I think I’m not so dependent on visuals because of my aphantasia.
I was upset for a few days when I discovered aphantasia. Now I completely embrace it! It is who I am!
pretty sure you can do 6/7 of those things without aphantasia
@@bignerd3783”advantages” They didn’t imply everyone else can’t.
I don't see how number 5 would work at all. Do you need to picture trauma to experience it?
That all sounds like pure cope towards being an NPC. I'm kidding. Not really, but kinda. You can learn it. It's a skill, not some magical ability. Start by closing your eyes and constructing a white square there. It's cool if you have to strain, it'll get easier. Once you can do it easily and quickly, you can invert the image. Make it a black square on a white background. Then fold it in half. Then fold it diagonally. Then make it red. Or blue. Or hot pink. Then you can make it a triangle. Or circle. Or star. Or starman. Or pentagram. Then you can start with real world things. Start simple. Like, for instance, an apple... Then make it 3d. Then do it with your eyes open. Then do it in real space, like on your hand or desk or floor. Just spend the time at each step until you can do it. The first part is the hardest. Once you got that part, the rest is easy.
I have aphantasia and I can't relate at all
This is fascinating, I just figured out today after watching this that I have aphantasia. My background is theoretical physics. When I did my research and dissertation in grad school I can imagine things in my mind but I rarely need to do it unless it's necessary. So when I imagine quarks distribution in a hadronic particle then my mind would think about quarks without picturing it. I noticed this when in the beginning of the video the blocks were visualized by actually rotating them. My mind can pictures two blocks and comparing their arrangements without rotating them. My wife always told me that I am a platonic because I tend to see things in abstract and generality not in particular or concrete. But I guess it takes a new meaning. Thank you for this video. I just learned something new today.
I normally got aphantasia and think in terms of sound, voice. But recently when i was tired and lied on the bed i stopped thinking hearing voice in my head and instead was imagining a movie or something like this it was really cool
Is it difficult to be not able to say things in the mind ?
@@pushparahi5681 For everyone its different experience. Im used to it so can't say but when I don't hear sound i feel very uncertain and kinda in the flow like life just happens you have no control
@@pushparahi5681 I have aphantasia and no inner voice. Not difficult at all. I only think about what I want to think about and if I don't want to think I don't. There are no voices in my head and no random thoughts that pop up. Just me thinking what I want to think.
You're probably clairaudent
@@sinntheeeuhh how do you experience the act of thinking? I visualize a lot so this intrigues me 😅
I have aphantasia, and the rotation test is very interesting, it almost feels like I'm "imagining" tactile rotation rather than visual rotation. I get the same feeling when predicting how a Rubik's cube will change based on certain moves, or when studying molecular structures.
What I find interesting also is that I get very heavily immersed in novels, specifically adventures and journeys, mostly because of how much I feel the sounds, smells, and general atmosphere of the different scenes present in books.
Wall of Text alert!
I had a super scary introduction to my own aphantasia: (TL:DR - I learned I had aphantasia after enduring a week long mental breakdown or something...)
This is 7-8ish years ago:
I was reading a webnovel at my desk when it happened: my brain was suddenly flooded with words, sentences, complete paragraphs of an un-known story.
My internal monologue was hi-jacked by the words, like someone stole away the mic and was shouting directly into my brain. Such an intense verbal barrage completely killed off my ability to function beyond basic self-care. My focus was utterly destroyed. It took an hour or two of me sitting in a daze before a thought broke finally through the noise and made me act.
It wasn't a rational thought, it was more like a compulsion; Vent the words onto paper (a word doc) and hope that it would empty my mind enough to regain control.
And so, I started writing.
For a week, I did nothing but write. When I (eventually) noticed that it was dark, I'd go and cook low-tier meals with easy prep (and I still burned a few due to the broken focus). It felt like I was trapped inside my head the whole time, just experiencing the world passively without any thoughts because I literally couldn't hear myself think. Conversations were impossible, I basically grunted and said yes or no to any questions while I was cooking dinner. Writing seemed to help, but it was like the difference between being set on fire and being dipped in magma. Both are bad, one is just less bad...
Somehow I managed to survive until the end of the week and on morning 8, I woke up half asleep and sat down at my desk. As the screen flickered on, I suddenly started crying because I could finally hear my thoughts again: "I need a coffee..."
Thankfully that sort of thing hasn't happened again, because it was absolutely terrifying... During that manic week, I wrote about 200k words (it was all pretty shit because I wasn't even a hobbyist writer at the time). It traumatized me to the point that my brain keeps trying to convince me that it was just 'inspiration' and to this day, reading that novel draft makes me feel off so it won't become a complete story anytime soon.
In the aftermath of that event, I was curious to look stuff up online and thus found out that I'm basically on the bottom tier of visualization for aphantasia. Also, there's no making music because my internal monologue is just that; a voice that kinda sounds like me, endlessly ranting in the darkness.
Learning more about it was quite refreshing as I could finally understand many things that were weird when I was younger. For example, I absolutely hated mathematics because I couldn't do the calculations in my head without forgetting numbers (similar to how people shout random numbers at someone's who's counting to make them forget...). Now I have a concrete reason why I hated it so much, which helped me to hate it less.
Once I realized that, I came up with new methods that suit me for counting (I use verbal rhythms for the numbers I'm adding. For example, 80 + 15, I would first do the 80 + 10 which is simple enough, then count out the 5 with a certain rhythm which helps me to remember the numbers much easier somehow. If there's a carryover, I can use half-steps to indicate it in the rhythm. Hey, if it's stupid but it works...)
The big take-away is that my internal monologue is supremely-uber-highly-mega important for me to function as a human and when it goes away, my brain functions at the level of a smart dog.
Right, I also learned that my spatial memory seems pretty good; I can still remember the dimensions of my grandma's linen closet (we used to hide there as brats while playing hide and seek...)
I can still draw a basic floor plan of that house even though I haven't been there in like 20 years (They just moved houses).
Maybe I missed my calling, maybe I should've been an architect.
Have you only been manic once? It’s so strange that that happened. Do you think anything triggered it?
Loved your story.
I'm an architect, so the end took me by surprise!
Like you, I also can recall spaces pretty well. In fact I remember and can probably draw to scale all the dwellings I've ever lived in, even the apartment we lived in when I was a toddler.
Did you ever find out why you had that "verbal storm" that locked you into a writing trance?
This doesnt really sound like it would have anything to do with aphantasia. I mean what you described is some sort of panic attack and the math thing is about focus, not visualisation. Pointing to ADHD.
I was thinking more about discalculia, about the math part. Rather than aphantasia.
@@phobics9498 over a full week long of the same hyperfocus is pretty our there for adhd, sounds more like a schizoaffective breakdown than anything else.
I have total aphantasia and have for as long as I can remember. Sometimes it makes me sad, like I’m missing out on something fundamental, and it makes me feel very separate from other people. I’ve been practicing for years and occasionally get this momentary flash of mental imagery, although I can’t control what the image is OF, and by the time I notice it, it’s gone. Wish I had an MRI and could see what’s going on in my brain when that happens 😆
It's a hard feeling, the realization of being different or missing out. But the mind is complex and we know so little about it. Aphantasia is framed as a "lack of" with research, but that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't strengths to an aphantasic brain. It definitely makes it harder when most people operate under the "norm", but aphantasics still excel across many disciplines. The mind finds a way, no matter what. When I am having a hard time with the missing out feeling, I go back to before I knew it was a thing and think about how I thought about it. For myself I didn't really notice a difference, it was only by discussing with others that I was made aware of the difference. I also have ADHD and was undiagnosed most of my life. Once I did know the difference it helps to understand, and know why certain things are harder for me than others. But also why I excel at other things. Meds help me function in neurotypical environments, but largely if the world was structured a bit differently I would be just fine. I think we notice these "lacks" just because it's not the majority case and so it amplifies the difference as a negative rather than trying to see how each person can contribute with their own strengths.
Like ppl who claim to not enjoy music or tone deaf, they’d be able to do some of it but not experience it? Brain scan comparisons of deaf ppl and blind ppl to sighted and hearing ppl must be interesting. Aphantasia brains have differences in visual cortex activities? Some ppl during a stroke , are not aware that they are having a stroke. Once a gun shot victim was interrogated with internal bleeding and was not clear headed enough and forced to admit killing instead of getting emergency help… this is a good episode.
known I have aphantasia for years (thanks to some content on youtube). always thought, 'minds eye' - just a phrase that people used - no idea that people could *actually VISUALISE* things - blew my mind (not as much as people who don't have an inner voice/how do they THINK???) - I've l already happily volunteered to be part of a couple of uni research projects (University of Auckland, Aotearoa/New Zealand). what I find really interesting is... well number of things
well it *is* POSSIBLE for me to see images - when I am completely utterly totally EXHAUSTED (think of a civil defense training weekend - from Friday evening to Sunday night 0 we has to drive after work (*when* I WAS working, many moons ago) - under the training they pushed us hard - little sleep - and trying to get to sleep these random but very detailed images - usually of random people did not know would just FLASH in my mind
I went through a drinking binge in early 2014 for about 10 days (please don't judge me - reasons) - by the end similar but worse - VERY CLEAR - random images - regardless of whether my eyes open or shut - flash flash flash flash - so clear like watching TV but someone else is changing the channel every few seconds - really freaked me out
PLUS - have VERY VIVID dreams - to the point where well well well before Inception (movie) - I had worked out a system (look at a clock - look back - time had changed - *ONLY* way in the dream I KNOW I'm dreaming - just like this 'reality' - sometimes try/succeed turn into a lucid dream - )
some images from *dreams from years* ago stuck in my head - though I can't 'see' them - still THERE
although I cannot SEE images, I can draw a map/image of what is in my head - (i'm 52 now - have clear distinct vivid memory of an incident in kindergarten - yes kindergarten - sent this information to my mother few years back in an email - she didn't come back with "don't be ridiculous" = just accepted it = and moved onto to another topic
oh - I'm an INTJ btw - professional tested twice - career counselling in 1998 & weekend business retreat based around Myers Briggs in.. 1999? 2200?
That's interesting 🤔 I have pretty vivid visualization and rarely dream. In fact, I feel more rested when I don't dream, which is most nights. Sometimes though, it's like living an entire lifetime or more shoved into those few hours.
I cringe to death at random memories too 😂 very annoying usually. Almost like my brain is deliberately keeping me from being too happy because every time I've felt really happy for the last 15 years something devastating has happened soon after. It's hard not to be pessimistic about it, but it's something I know how to deal with 99.5% of the time.
I hope you get to find out what those studies found, if you haven't already 🙂
how do you even pronounce aoutoeaeara????
@@crunchymushy I take it you mean Aotearoa ???
mate! it's easy...🙃
actually - aoutoeaeara is on right track - more vowels than english speaks are used to - including ng (like singer)
ok first, vowel sounds are a little different - instead of a, e, i, o, u
A (ah) - Pronounced like the 'a' in 'are. ...
E (eh) - Similar to the 'e' in 'there. ...
I (ee) - Sounds like the 'ee' in 'three. ...
O (aw) - Similar to the 'o' in 'or. ...
U (oo) - Pronounced like the 'o' in 'two. ...
Ng - Pronounced like the 'ng' in 'song. ...
Wh - Usually pronounced like the 'f' in 'fine.
next - you break it down into 'chunks'
each bit that ends in a vowel is a 'chunk'
so Ao /tea / roa
Ao = hmm - Ah-o (as above, where, A in 'are' & O as in 'or'
tea - tea-ya
roa - like 'rower' (some one who rows a boat)
VERY *rough* guide -
listen Splitz Endz = 6 months in a leaky boat - (song) - they start with Aotearoa -
lovely name - means 'land of the long white cloud'
now that you've mastered that - onto our next vocab word -
Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu
(85 letters); Short form: Taumata
"The summit where Tamatea, the man with the big knees, the climber of mountains, the land-swallower who travelled about, played his nose flute to his loved one".
Note: Listed in the Guinness World Records as the longest official place name in the world.
Very interesting comment, thanks
About your remark on people not having an inner monologue:
I have an inner monologue but I've a few memories from very early childhood where I didn't have an inner monologue. It wasn't at all bothering me in my understanding of my environment or in my interactions with it. I also more recently experienced my inner monologue temporarily disappearing while being chemically impaired. It was a bit more peaceful but that didn't render me unable to think.
I've come to think that the inner monologue, like visualization, is only mirroring subconscious processes instead of being the main drivers of information processing.
Try to do the following to understand what I mean: focus on your thoughts and cut your inner monologue short. Then, ask yourself if you really did lose information doing that. You most likely didn't.
This is the only channel I've found that is covering the many aspects of the hard problem of consciousness so clearly and easily to digest, and it's a topic that deserves so much more attention, with it arguably being the core mystery of everyone's life and existence. Unbelievably interesting and awe inspiring, and if there was a course about it and I had the time and money, I would without a doubt enroll. Thank you so much for covering these modern day enigma's that almost feel like the only remaining piece of true magic left in a world where science has made the explanations to most things that were once magic, seem predictable or mundane.
@@you_are_soul Yes. Science attempts to be objective, but as Chalmers has said, consciousness is by definition, subjective.
Conscious experience is subjective. But is consciousness?
@you_are_soul So, your unconscious activities and automatic functions are consciousness.
I don't really get how scientific explanations take away any of the magic or majesty to aspects of our universe.
Like we might be able to explain the "how" of some complex processes but there's still plenty of awe and magic left to be found in the "why"
It explains why many engineers at work can't seem to understand when I'm trying to explain a simple mechanical issue. I can see it in my mind, but they can't, they see it as numbers and usually are way off from reality.
As someone with aphantasia, ive realized that memory recall is a different thing to composing new "images" in the minds eye. So i sort of have a bank of memories which i can access, but for new constructs i find i need to write or draw them out to explore them. Then they become a memory that i can work with.
Same, it’s like it doesn’t exist yet, so there’s nothing to “replay” a memory of until you conceptualize it on paper or draw it lol😅
You can learn it. Close your eyes and construct a white square on the black backdrop. Then fold, rotate, shift, change the shape, spin it, rotate it, etc. Do those in any given order, but make sure you master the first step before trying the others. From there, it's a short step from simple shapes to complex imagery.
True ask me to visualize an apple and I can get if I try hard a crazy slide show of apples tree branches anything related to an apple but I can't focus on one apple.
But not always often it is blank.
Yes I'm the same way! For this reason I have often though of myself as not having 'full aphantasia' but I wonder if as you say it would be more accurate to think of these as separate processes? I would be really curious to see a study on this relationship
@@samuelrosenberg1991 hey! Yes indeed! My "hypothesis" (AS IF i was some kind of academic lol) is that indeed there are 2 processes, probably more. I have another interesting anecdote to describe, it happened a few days ago when my wife was trying to show me something. And through that process we discovered something that kind of supports the memory thesis. If you want to know more, let me know!
I see two images, both 3d, one with my eyes and one with my mind. They can be unique. As I listen and look at a person, I also see what they are saying or what I’m thinking in mental visuals.
Both take mental capacity, so as my eyes are focused on an external stimulus, my internal representations reduce in strength and vice-versa - as my imagination increases my external focus reduces.
But it is very easy for me to translate a recent external image into a mental one - like rotating a 3d object.
I have total aphantasia, but have done psychedelics and under the influence that's exactly how my perception became, 2 worlds and the ability to choose which one to pay attention to. My real eyes and one in my mind. Absent drugs, no mind's eye at all, just the real world.
@@Gnaritas42 I can attest to psychs having an effect on “increasing” the minds eye. I also remember my “minds eye” being an order of magnitude more vivid after having done psychedelics, still to this day, years since my first experience. (I don’t use them anymore besides marijuana - which does have its own effect but a lot less than psychs)
@@luke-8equalsD doing psychs was the first time I discovered what a minds eye was, and what a visual imagination actually was outside of dreams, and realized my thoughts could affect what I was seeing. Also only use mj these days.
I had the ability to visualize extremely vividly and in different ways my whole life. Then i had a crazy OBE in my 30s and after that i cannot visualize anymore. I thought something was wrong with me for a long time. Thought a part of me didn't return. It wasn't until i really started down my meditation, and looking inward process that i truly knew it was a gift. There was a major diference to how i learned to manipulate my awareness. Allowed me to feel and know instead of picture. It's hard to explain but now i think it's really helped me on my path. will continue to do so as i progress.
It is great to finally see someone working on consciousness research who has a realistic and practical view of it. The others I stumbled upon on the internet often couldn't even clearly define the object of their research. Sometimes I think we should come up with a new more clear term for what is called "consciousness" in that field, just like when UFO was replaced with UAP. I think it would save us a lot of headaches.
Oh wow, this is life-changing. He's totally describing me.
In response to some of the comments.
I can't "picture" an apple in my head. I can "imagine" a green apple vs. a red apple, taste the difference, feel how the texture is different on my tongue, hear the different sounds when I bite into each one, I can "imagine" how some set of features would change if it were rotated in different ways, but I can't conjure an image of it, and no I can't "see" green in my mind's eye when asked. I do get some abstract "shadows" with my eyes closed, and they can have color, but I have no control over them, except that if I try to identify them, they go away. When asked to visualize a tiger, (with my eyes open) I got an instantanious flash of a tiger's stripes and then the face of a tiger, but I can't pull them back, and with my eyes closed, I can't even get that. I had a therapist a few years ago who thought I might have a split brain disorder, her attempt to treat that went nowhere. I have had vivid lucid dreams where I tested my vision, and with effort, was able to make out details like the exhaust pipe of a car or, with effort, reading a sign (though it changed when I attempted to re-read it), and I can see color in dreams.
No, I can't intentionally "picture" loved ones' faces, or my house, or green, or even the numeral 1. I've tried to ask others about how their minds eye works, it was like we were talking in different languages. If asked to imagine myself on a beach, the best analogy I could give is that I can only imagine myself as if I'm on a beach with my eyes closed. All of the other senses work fine, (sound works REALLY well for me, I think it's better than my actual hearing), but no vision at all.
I'm an INTJ, computer programmer, and have been doing really fancy stuff with AI. I'm sort of elite in my ability to "imagine" the behavior of complex systems. This video and the comments section, even comments from those who think this isn't real, were very helpful.
Edit: I don't think I've ever smelled anything in a dream, but yes I can conjur the sensation of specific smells on demand. I'd never tried that before now, but it works, so I know it's not something I had to "practice".
Really interesting that you can recall senses from other modalities but not vision. Your experience and vivid description of it is more confirmation to me that I lack any of what you describe in my mind.
mfs like you always end up being really good at chemistry/bio and discrete math. But bad at solving differential equations and calc stuff lol
AI will tell you what a rose smells like.
@@claudiamanta1943 Well, I probably can't tell you in words what a rose smells like in a meaningful way. "Slightly sweet", that's obvious, and "soft" comes to mind for some reason I can't explain. I tried a few AI's (that is my specialty lately), they consistently say it's commonly described as smelling "romantic", "delicate", and other things that are mostly meaningless to my [probably underdeveloped] sense of smell. I also saw "Floral", well duh, and "Feminine", which seems nonsensical to me, roses do not smell like a woman, unless that woman is wearing rose-scented perfume. The point is that I can, at least for some things, intentionally recall an actual sensation that's very much like smell, but I can't (at least not conciously) do that for vision.
So fascinating. I’ve long struggled to mentally see images without accepting that my imaginings are more of a feeling than seeing. When I insist on creating an image it’s more electric in nature. I had no idea of aphantasia before this video. Thanks for the validation!
I genuinely went into this like “oh that’s weird…”
Then I tried visualizing an apple
Nothing.
I tried visualizing a toothbrush
Nothing.
Roll of paper towels
Nothing.
So I might have aphantasia guys
I can't even imagine what it would be like to see an actual image in my mind.
Everyone’s explanation seems to be different. For me, it has to be “outside” my normal vision. Off to the side, in the periphery, usually “above” where I’m looking. But it’s not like an extension of my normal vision. I guess it feels like I’m seeing something with an eye that is literally inside the back of my head, and it’s pretty dark really unless my mind is clear. When zoning out, like in the shower, it’s like that “eye” takes priority though.
@@LeeTwentyThree yeah it's kinda like a third eye that is shut most of the time, and when you open it, it blends with the rest of your vision. Just like when your right and left eyes see seperate things
@@Whatismusic123 Thank you for this explanation. I have strong Aphantasia and have tried to teach myself to visualize. Anytime I feel like I'm close I can literally feel the energy in my forehead/top of my head
i would describe it as like having two layers on photoshop, and the imagination layer is like at 10% opacity. like its there but also not
@ajvast Interesting. I really appreciate you describing it. I understand what the details of say an apple are. However I don't see an image of it, just know what the apples I've seen look like. If that makes sense. Now if you asked me to imagine something I've never seen I would not be able to explain any details.
All of this is very intriguing to me.
Again thank you for helping me to understand.
I have a mild version of aphantasia as I can see in front of me an apple, but only for a fraction of a second, after that there is only the abstract notion of an apple and the memory of the various properties a apple can have. I can consider rotating an abstract apple just fine. Lau's idea that there is an unconscious process going here is completely unfounded.
When he said to visualise an Apple I got nothing. But there are times where I can kind of visualise things, but it’s generally location based. If you asked me to visualise a deceased family member I simply can’t do it.
Very interesting!
I may have this in some weaker form. I can bring up a weak image of an apple, mostly stemming from the memory of the apple, that was on my desk yesterday. But there is no color. And now I realize I generally don't see color in my imagination and when imagining something the images feel brittle. Same goes for dreams, I cannot remember, ever seeing intense color in dreams, even though I dream often.
But I am a Computer Scientist and can visualize Algorithms and flow of data really well. I also own and design Bonsai trees and can imagine the shape, that I want, even when not looking at the tree.
But more interestingly I am also a musician and I always envied people with chromesthesia (people, that automatically associate notes with certain colors). But now I realized, while listening to, or playing music, I associate it with shapes and texture.
Very nice, thought stimulating video! Today I learned something new about myself, which I never thought about before.
what a nice comentary, i dont want to be disrespect but i have this cuestion from musician to musician, do you try psichedelycs? do you see colors there or not? (i know this has nothing to do whit the music lol)
@@TatuCarreta Once, and I did see colors there, yes.
I wonder what chemicals like LSD do. When I used to trip colors were everywhere like a kaleidoscope.
Like others have said, I “see” my imagined objects but not like I see an outside object. It’s dreamlike. If I try to focus in, it disappears. I will say I imagined a green apple but it’s more like a memory of an apple. There’s no real green there.
or DMT, imagine a non inner perceptions person in dmt, we need so much research here
To me LSD does nothing, only haven taken as much as 150 ug
I haven't broken through on DMT but the visuals with my eyes open are much stronger on the spirit particle than on LSD
And while LSD is mainly affecting things that are there, for example I would see the bark on tree revolve going upwards, or the small 3D spots on my wall shifting and moving, or a curtain dancing as if it was windy, on DMT I saw things that weren't there, for example I would look at some plants on the ground and I would see them sprout, grow, wither and die only to be replaced by new plants over and over again.
I have brutal aphantasia, absolutely blind mind, but on psychedelics I can see pattern like visuals in my kinds eye. Still no at will imagination, but some kind of crazy light show instead of total blackness.
I believe I have complete aphantasia and have never experienced visual dreaming. Curiously I excel at 3D spatial analysis and it's a core part of my work.
I don't see the shapes I'm working with in my head; I feel them. Not physically but a feeling for distance and position. Almost like how you can map an object within a box using your hands, but obviously without any sense of touch involved.
Hard to describe but quite powerful. The stacked cubes in your video took me a few seconds to 'map out' the initial orientation, but I could then determine sameness in the other orientations very quickly - likely less than a second each.
When I am talking with my friends online, one of them has at least said they have aphantasia, and they typically seem to be more logic oriented, and I personally have thought that maybe this is something like brain-handedness? Like for most people they press a 'button' to think of an image of whatever they want to imagine using their right hemisphere vs others using their left hemisphere to try for the same thing.
BINGO. This data support my comment for the video. It's about thinking in Ideas as opposed to Particulars .. or something. Thanks man. We're gonna solve the Riddle of the World, and have Peace. WE ARE BECOMING AS GODS. ('bout apple time!)
No its because their word oriented.
Words use traditional logic. People with hyperaphantasia think abt stuff through processes and "feelings".
Like I do my math through feelings more than actual logic.
Im really ass at chemistry and biology and shit like that tho
@@honkhonk8009 I agree with you. I'm mostly aphantasic and I'm definitely a word guy. I'm always reading or writing, from an early age.
When I typed logic oriented I didn't mean very specifically math, but moreso logically thinking in conversations or taking logical approaches to situations to a higher degree than what I personally consider a normal level
@@honkhonk8009I’m very word/logic system oriented but my memory works based on the “energy” of a memory, then specific “strands” of that energy represent objects, people, events in the memory, rather than words describing the memory, or genuinely re-experiencing in my mind as ive heard from some people. Idk if it’s necessarily one or the other, personally I think it’s probably more like a wheel of categories including traditional word logic, feelings/emotions, generally active vs passive, generally external vs internal, plus plenty of others I can’t think of off the top of my head, which everybody has varying degrees of natural ability in. We love applying binaries to topics, but the more we learn about topics we have split into harsh binaries, the more we have to take those binaries apart. It may be time to stop applying hard rules and restrictive boxes to things we clearly don’t understand yet. Binaries are not helpful in most contexts, we just seem to really love dividing things into two groups for no real reason.
Spinning a cow at high speeds
Same...
Now I can't unimagine it
*starts humming in polish*
How many rotations? Grass fed?
the game
As someone with seemingly quite severe aphantasia, the best way I can describe it is like AI image prompts, but in reverse. Instead of inputting words to generate an image, its as if when given an image prompt, I mentally "fill it in" with descriptive words. So in the case of apples, I know what apples look like and I can describe them to you in words, but I cannot see what I am describing as internally it is essentially text. For entirely new images/concepts I find that I rely almost exclusively on similes or metaphors that allow me to relate some known concepts and combine them to approximate what this new thing may look like.
I recently figured out that I have partial Aphantasia. I can visualize things in my mind to some degree, but the images tend to be fleeting and mostly grayscale (though I can get flashes of colour by focusing on the notion of something being a specific colour).
Perhaps the best comparison would be the "Embossed" effect in image editing software, generally lacking in fine detail & texture, with the areas outside the central focal point becoming rapidly more blurred and dissolving towards the periphery.
Yet perhaps surprisingly, I can visualize mechanical concepts & movement quite well (for example, the internals of an engine), though I can't see the whole image clearly at once (almost like shining a very narrow and rather weak torch in the dark).
I can visualize (for example) a cabin I'd like to build, move my perspective around inside or outside, place the major components in that space, but it's all outlines & shadowy planes, and fuzzy outside the central focus.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm really visualizing, or if it's mostly conceptualization parading as visualization.
Me too. My dreams are usually dark and fuzzy around the edges. Sometimes there is a “sense” of colour in that I know a bus is red in a dream but I don’t see the red.
out of interest, is there any difference when trying to visualise memories? So not some abstract imagined apple, but a specific photo you've seen before? Or given you have an interest in engines, maybe a specific engine or car you've seen many times
@@camicus-3249 No significant difference visualizing memories vs abstract. Familiarity adds detail to the object being visualized, but holding that detailed object in the minds eye is just as difficult, and will dissolve just as easily. It's still a patchy, fleeting, fading to greyscale view of a detailed object.
Dreams are a little bit less so - still fuzzy & fleeting, and patchy colour, but not quite as bad as awake visualization, still considerably worse than my awake vision, which is excellent.
what youve described is what i experience to a t
HD spinning 3D half-eaten apple that bounces around randomly
I got that shit bouncin around in my head like an old TV screensaver
Big bounce boings
Ive got apple fractals.
I can do it all minus the HD
HD?
I have aphantasia and gf has hyperphantasia.
Its interesting to hear her describe how she thinks, where she can basically create those images you see of an engine split apart and see how it all combines together.
For me, (in something like this) it's more on the way things comnect. A goes with B, then do process C, etc. like its specifically the process that I think with.
These are not 100%, I am still struggling with the words to describe how my brain thinks. Haven't found the right language to explain it yet, so I am glad its being looked into more.
Once you realise that you can't 'see' an apple, try thinking about a clock. I have full Aphantasia but I'm able to imagine clock hands at various times in my m,ind and replicate them - I just can't understand how it's done.
It seems to run in families alongside Hyperphantasia. I have noticed those with Aphtantasia tend to be above average with words, whereas Hyperphantasia lends itself to visual art of course. We also get a meditation bonus (and we finally realise why we could never do the guided visual ones).
im so glad to find some aphantasia person who meditates, if you want to share, how is it?
I long ago had given up on meditation because the few guides/pointers from friends/family were heavily visualization based.
"Imagine a spoon in your mind and really focus on it".
A frustrating few minutes later had me annoyed and resigned to the fact that it just wasn't for me.
Never really revisited it since, perhaps I ought to give it another try.
@@TatuCarreta Sorry for the delay! Meditation was hopeless for the longest time but I was approaching meditation badly. Once I stopped trying to meditate on something and just sit and feel sensations in my body the aphantasia became a blessing. We only have thoughts to ignore, not imagery. The only time I actually recall seeing an internal image (and it was really vivid) was in deep meditation. I thought it was enlightenment. It was with a group and they just thought I was insane. 😁
When I imagine an apple it's the Pink Lady variety and I can also smell, and taste the sweet, tart, crunchy, smooth, flavors of it all too. My lips tingle, and my jaws contract.
I am a visual artist and have aphantasia. Everything is filed in my mind as concepts. I have good spatial awareness.
In a way, I feel like it’s a net benefit. My imagination doesn’t feel as “polluted” and I don’t need to overcome what pops into my mind as much.
I have the opposite- hyperphantasia.
Thought that was you. Small world sometimes 👋
Hmmm.... Do I have a normal mind? I can imagine anything visualize anything and everything, but visualizing very complicated stuff takes too much brain power, so I just visualize parts of it and just use concepts on parts that the human brain just can't imagine, such a complicated thing.
Tbh... I have the ability to dream while awake ....
The way I do it is kind of forcing my brain to sleep but instead of the brain dreaming I do the dream by imagining things.
By doing this I can actually choose what to dream and stuff.
I can also do this when I wake up but I don't move or anything, I just think that I woke up but I'm still in a dream, basically half asleep the instant I try to move in real life I disconnect from my dream the same way I can connect when I want to as well
Happens most often when I am sleeping and somebody calls my name
And that kind of makes me wake up but not all the way
I can manipulate this kind of half conscious state and basically know that I woke up even though I never left the dream, this way I can manipulate my dream it's kind hard since sometimes I fail and when I try to move in the dream I move in real life disconnecting from the dream
When it is successful I'm able to control what I want to move kind of like transporting my consciousness into the dream
When I move in the dream it feels just like moving my real body but the actual movements can't connect to real life
And since I discovered this I have gotten an incredible amount of controllability in my normal dreams and I can actually recognize and acknowledge for example stuff like the super slowed movements in nightmares I can acknowledge that this is not normal and is supernatural but no matter how hard I think the word dream just escapes my mind
It's kind of like forgetting what you were trying to do even though you are doing it
Opposite end of the spectrum here, super Hyperphantasia/MADD, tuning in.
4D visualization, simulating entire worlds in my head, etc.
It’s debilitating, as it’s hard for me to interact with others normally at times.
I only get that in my dreams, it must be a bit of a pain to have the ability to distract yourself whenever you want.
Sometimes it feels like I have aphantasia, as it, at times, can be impossible for me to imagine things on command, but in reality I see incredibly vivid images in my head, they’re just entirely out of my control most of the time.
If you ask me to imagine an apple, it’s like my mind is an old TV where I have to fiddle around with the antennas to get a clear picture, where often their is interference, and sometimes all I can get is snow.
What makes it really interesting to me is that though I struggle to picture things in my mind on command, if you ask me to imagine something within the real world, I can “see it” Like experiencing an overlay. Seeing the apple in my mind can be a struggle, but picturing the apple sitting on the table in front of me is no problem at all.
I can visualize, but those visions are very bleak, blurred, they lack almost all detail and color. But I can imagine an overall impression of a place, including it's atmosphere, smell, sounds, temperature, how it touches. But images are really reduced, and take a lot of effort to imagine a detail of something. I cannot imagine faces. They are always simplified, and blurry, if I focus really hard, I see them in my mind, but only for a short moment, and it is very straining.
I have no image of an apple at all, I just see black screen. And I can solve rotation puzzles pretty well. Ironically, my dream is to make comics
These comments are fascinating. I have the opposite of aphantasia. I have no internal monologue nor do I think in language, period. My thoughts are exclusively images and abstractions. It seems impossible to me that the average person can have complex thoughts and think them through with words alone.
This makes me curious, what if someone has no internal monologue, but also has aphantasia
@@SemiCollin You're looking for those with anaduralia
The only “sense” I have in my head is “hearing”. I can make a wide range of sounds in there. Thankfully it’s not constant. I do have “metal images” I just don’t “see” anything. The only time I’ve ever “seen” anything in there was when I was high.
Im an artist with aphantasia. I think what drew me to art was being a child unable to imagine things that i wanted to, if i wanted to see a cool guy with a sword, i would have to physically make it on paper because i couldnt represent it in my head. I really think thats what drew me to art from an early age
can you do mental math?
I only heard about aphantasia when I was 40. I have never been able to visualise anything, but I was an avid reader since I was 5 and it surprised people when I finally mentioned this. I also had an active imagination and people thought I could see things, but I never did. I actually use struggle to play pretend because I need something close to whatever concept I am dreaming up (i.e. I can't just imagine I have a dress on; I have to be wearing one, but I could imagine it was blue but not that it was a princess dress if it was a tutu). I was never envious of anyone and actually just assumed people exaggerated when they said they could see it. When I studied meditation I use to hate visualisation, and now I know why. I lived with it and it was never an oddity to me until I found out that others didn't experience it like I did.
to me aphantasia is exactly like mental blindness, I'm fully aware of what I'm imagining, but I cannot see it. I say that because I would think it's similar to what a blind person's imagination is like. I agree with him when he says that I can have a "mental image" in my mind and do tasks like mental rotation, but there is absolutely no visual aspect. imagine a painting on the wall. to me its just a wall with a bump on it, but if im not touching the wall i would think that its just a flat wall, because i cant see the bump. this is even true in my dreams, I am fully aware of everything in my surroundings, even when I'm in a dark underground place with no light, and my awareness is tied to my location, so I don't know what's happening around corners or through walls, but there is no detail to anything. nobody has faces, there is no visual at all, it's almost like I exist in the third person. I'm aware of where I am and where everything else is and aware of what's happening and how things exist in the space, but I'm not limited to my field of vision and I am not able to make out any details that would require vision. even when I'm interacting with people that I know i cant make out their faces or clothing or any other details that would require eyesight to discern. not only this but I'm very inept at trying to make 2 dimensional sense of the 3 dimensional "image" I have in my mind. in the beginning of the video when you showed a mental rotation puzzle it was instantly obvious to me that they were the same object (i looked at them and didnt have to think about it or rotate them, i just looked at them and at glance thought they are clearly the same), but when trying to picture or draw the details on an object or in a scene from a specific perspective absolutely all detail is lost because there is no color or vision that I can use to tell where a contour or object ends and another begins. the best I can do is outlines, but details are completely lost on me. I can carefully design a car in my mind, lay out an engine bay, and be aware of how each individual component fits with the others in space. I'm very good with packaging and the 3 dimensional tetris when putting boxes and items into the back of a car or truck. I can completely and tangibly "visualize" all kinds of 3 dimensional shapes and interactions, but there is no perspective like you would get if you were looking at it, I'm "seeing it" from all angles and my awareness is fully 3 dimensional, like I'm a 4 dimensional being looking at a 3 dimensional image so that I can see everything from every possible angle at once. this is why mental rotation is silly to me. in the context of an engine bay I can rotate the turbo to make sure that the inlet and outlet pipes fit with the engine and the wheel wells, but the shape of the turbo doesn't change, so if there's 2 images I don't need to rotate it to know that it's the same turbo because when I look at an image the shape in my mind is clear, and since there is no perspective the shape is the shape and they are either the same or they aren't. the same applies to all of my senses, I can't imagine sounds, can't imagine smells, but when things are happening in a dream I'm aware of what people are saying, aware of what happened when someone slams a door even if I don't "hear it." my memories are much the same as my dreams and memories, I only remember what was significant to me at the time, so if someone said something I will remember the meaning of what they said but not the exact phrasing of it or where we were at the time, depending on how significant those details are. if it is significant that we were in class when it happened I'll remember it, but I still can't "picture" the classroom much less what other people in the room were doing or even where we were in the classroom, unless for example we were hiding from the teacher and to me that was significant enough to remember, or someone else was doing or saying something funny.
excuse my bad grammar and run on sentences, but I'm lazy
I also have an incredibly good sense of direction because of this, I always know where I am relative to where I have been in a 3 dimensional space (unless I'm somewhere new AND not paying attention)
for me the mental rotation still takes place, but it's unnecessary and it's not something I do to identify objects, just something I do while completely a 3d puzzle for example, rubix cubes are hard for me though because the colors mean nothing in my imagination so I can't keep track of them using my mental image
I agree with this 😂 literally how i sorta describe it to people. Im amazing at directions. it's almost as if I've been somewhere i can always remember how to get there. Without any images, it doesn't seem to be happening automatically.
Bro, you HAVE to use paragraphs.
I just get very vague bits of shapes in my mind, everything is mostly shrouded in darkness. And as soon as I try to concentrate on it, it gets harder to see. My dreams are like that as well, it is like 50-80% of the information is missing. What happened one time though is that I got pushed in my dream and suddenly everything popped with colour and it was like real life for a few seconds. This was a very surreal experience and I still wonder what happened there.
Also didn't really understand what backwards masking was about. In the first image I knew it was a spider, the second one I thought it was a bunny in a cup. But what does it tell me, how did that relate to the video?
That masking made little sense
you need to read about WILD tecnique in lucid dreams, is the only way to have a "more real than reality" dream
As an artist, people are always shocked when I tell them I don't come up with a mental image of what I want my piece to look like when it's finished, I just kind of go with the flow. I'm now just realizing that I have Aphantasia. I always wondered why I wasn't able to mentally create images in my mind. Thanks for the information. Very interesting stuff.
I totally agree with this . Although I have aphantasia, I am able to manipulate my mind and even other processes in my brain in strange ways that other people claim they cannot, yet I objectively experience these processes. I have found that hard determinism has helped me understand a lot. I do love music, as some people on here said, I used to have very vivid dreams.. horrible horrible ones. I listen to solfeggio frequencies on my tv while I sleep in the other room during the night and I have gone from not having any mental imagery to being able to somehow m occasionally have a slight , abstract images but they are.. I can’t explain it. I do experience synesthesia when I attempt to recreate the apple in the form of feeling an invisible apple sitting on my skin for example. It has led me to have insights on things I never thought I would. Once you define consciousness it ceases to be that. So my imagination is very malleable and bizarre things that I can’t seem to find any info on, in every other aspect except visually. I think you are onto something here for sure. I can seem to visualize quantum physics in a strange way, like invisible walls. I watched a video recently where someone suggested our consciousness is quantum. When I access that field or whatever I.., I can’t explain. . Ahhh
so interesting! please if you find the words share :)
@@TatuCarreta quantum physics is our true nature. If we are not fully accepting of our nature and the nature of all things, we limit our consciousness and it gets separted, causing what some people experience as the unconscious mind somehow controlling us, or the subconscious bubbling up and doing one thing to another. We are on the path to, as a collective, as more and more realize we are all essentially the same, just with different interests that can unify or separate us based on our interpretation of said interests. Political structures and organized belief systems know this, and use it to control us. Our unconscious mind is part of a us. Raise it and make it equal, and you can then a utilize your subconscious and be the writer of your own existence, and not have to be subject to anyone else’s. Although, seeing as we are one mind, separated by beliefs and ideas, we are partly there.. once the quantum computer race is won, and there are no longer any more secrets, which one country is going to do inevitably… just think. We have been on a binary system of computing, and we are biological computers that know the buttons. During the time we until technology makes the leap from binary to quantum, we can use our nature/biology to make reprogram our past binary ways of thinking to align with nature. It’s happening, and if you don’t pay attention it will happen anyway.
I have the same.. draw? affinity? for quantum topics, when they are explained to me they just click but my friends are all very confused when I try talking about it, ive explained to them in every way i can think of, sent them to the reading or video I was talking about, they just do not get it. Thinking about the ways in which different quantum effects connect, the things they have in common, I feel like my spirit has touched another plane, the energy there is amazing, i yearn to understand more of the topic. We live in a time of incredible advancements in nearly every field, but consciousness study and quantum mechanics have made some real leaps and bounds even since I started following them, yet still I wish we knew far far more than we do. I really think whatever is causing the strange effects we see with quantum jumping/tunneling is the key to multitudes of other advancements in countless places, it’s just an idea I feel in my very core is true.
Yes! The tactile apple! I get this as well.
???
I love reading stories, especially action fantasy genre, and I can imagine some epic sword and magic battle in my mind no problem. I just discovered aphantasia recently, and I wonder how different my life would've been up till then if I had the condition, maybe I would've thought that these stories are boring AF without knowing that people can visualise what is being described in them lol
I used to have aphantasia but I taught myself to visualise (it’s unreliable though, I can’t always visualise on command and the image quality varies). Visualising made no difference to my appreciation for stories. I always loved reading, to me the words are as impactful as a picture. They’re like another sense of their own!
Weirdly I don’t always like visualising a story because you often have to fill in details with your own ideas. Sometimes I just want the author’s words. The mind is so funny, if I’d always visualised I would never think of it that way!!! Most authors probably expect readers to visualise the story!
I have aphantasia and memory issues, the very few things I remember, I can’t even picture them, it’s only data. That’s why I take photos of everything, and keep boxes of everything I buy, and track everything down to my heartbeat and what I do every half an hour every day. Data owns a huge part of my life.
If you want to kill who I am, you just have to thrash away my external HDD, which I really need to make a backup of... THIS is the proof of me being alive, it has all the pictures and data of the things I don’t want to forget, not my brain.
When i closed my eyes I saw an apple that kept changing colors from green to red and back like flickering...i realized this was because i didnt have information on its colors...
Mine did this but with shades around me instead of actual apple shades - a muted burgundy red, a sage green instead of apple red etc 🍎 🍏
Mine kept flicking from green to red too. Like, “I can be green, I can be red, I can be anything you like!”
I'm fairly weak on visualisation but fairly strong I think on somatic and auditory imagination. I can "feel" the texture of a tissue for example, if inexactly. I can recall voices and music fairly clearly, replay a song with accuracy mostly limited by memory.
If a qualia is to be thought of as an integration of cognitive inputs, then virtual qualia like imaginary experiences can be described in similar terms relative to all inputs simulated internally. If that makes sense.
lol i write about that, is a very good way to see the mental manifestations, like we have an analogue perception and a digital one, we can mentally taste, smell, view, hear, feel, and even all the perceptions at the same time. aphantasia is like a broken cable...
Synesthesia
Fascinating. i've known I have aphantasia for some time, but this is the first time i've heard an explanation that explains my experience.
Specifically, I can "see" what are called"flashbulb" memories but cannot simply choose to see things like the apple example. I spent all of school just confused when people said things like "close your eyes and picture " it just seemed like nonsense until i found this condition and realized everyone has a minds eye.
But, this idea that those with aphantasia just don't experience internal imagery consciously explains to me how "flashbulbs" aren't just some confusing curveball invalidating my experience.
My curiosity comes when people don't have an internal monolog or dialog, I've only met a few people who don't habe this function and they all seem to make poor or impulsive social decisions, I wonder if they can run conversation scenarios in their head even, I've asked some of them how they think of things and they unfortunately the three I've met aren't super good at explaining things well either...
I think another issue with consciousness studies is that we haven’t scientifically studied psychadelic experiences, it’s a difficult task but I think one that needs to be studied to fully understand what consciousness is
we need to do it by our self if the goverments dont aprove the researchs. Some like psilocibine, pure lsd or DMT, are very powerful drugs but no big damage, actually are great and positive results! helps us to know what we are
Fooor suure, this is my biggest gripe with consciousness studies. What is the reason for this? Do countries not let you research illegal substances or what? There are definitely places in the world where they do it. Do the scientists themselves avoid it?
I'm personally really interested in what Astral Projection (the next level after lucid dreaming), is and I think that it would definitely unlock some big unknown knowledge about consciousness.
I've heard it explained as different states of consciousness:
Dream Awareness Experience - you're unaware that *you*'re dreaming, and you're not the real you, with all your memories and being
Lucid Awareness Experience - you are aware that you're dreaming, but you're still not really the real *you*
Astral Awaremess Experience - you're BOTH, aware that you're dreaming, AND, you're the real, full, *you*
I wonder, how do these 3 interact with the main one?:
Awareness Experience - you're AWAKE, not dreaming, and you're you, fully conscious and aware that you're conscious.
I think the field of Neural Science is vastly under-researching the state of dreaming and how it influences our ego. And then this one combines quite well with the field of studying psychedelics, "mind-altering drugs". And there likely lies the key to quite a big chunk of "how the brain works".
I wrote this while high, sorry.
@@Katatonyathe problem is doing it in a way that is more broadly useful. individual experience is hard to pin down and quantify. plus getting funding for such a project could be a hard sell if you went "we're getting people high as shit and writing down what happens". as far as i know there's some research on psychedelics, and how it could be used to treat some mental illnesses (anxiety, depression, dunno what else) but not specifically on how it relates to the idea of consciousness. on a not-so related note, astral projection is a load of bull, but your definition of it seems to differ from the more popular one. Can you elaborate on what it means to be the "real you" and why you're not the "real you" when you lucid dream?
@@monkqp the cultist version of astral projection definitely sounds like a load of bull, but people like to sugar coat everything in life, it's probably how our brain works (hence religion, makes you feel special and not just a blob of cells).
Thing is, A LOT of people experienced this Astral thing, and I know a few personally even. If you ask any of them for details of the experience, it matches, to what people on the internet say, to what people in other cultures say, etc. The CIA even did experiments on it. It definitely exists imo. Do you actually leave your body? Most likely not lol. Does our brain have some immense hidden potential? Most likely yes imo. And I think some psychedelic drugs bypass the difficulty of getting an astral experience, but it's like going into it ultra drunk.
I stumbled upon a subreddit called AstralAcademy where the author wrote a book explaining his views and techniques on Astral Projecting, his definition is what I used, it's way more realistic and down to earth, stripped down from any unnecessary cultist links.
Here's how his book explains your question:
"it’s best described as you being the actor in a play, but being fully aware that you’re the person playing the part, not the person in the play" -- is what an astral experience is
The difference from the lucid experience is that while in a lucid dream, you become aware that you're dreaming, but you don't become aware of much more than that, you're still kinda in a dream state. I.E - you don't really become aware that you're the person playing the part, you're still the person in the play, not the real you reading this comment.
I think the author also claims that all 3, dreaming, lucid dreaming and astral projection, take place in the same space. The only thing that's changing is your awareness level. That's also an interesting way to view it.
I myself only experienced lucid dreaming and many failed astral dreaming attempts. Have some wild sleep paralysis stories though. I never really gave it a full shot though, was always busy with stuff irl and couldn't concentrate on this. This book of his sounds really promising though, if anyone's interested find the subreddit and there should be a post with the downloadable book somewhere on there.
>on a not-so related note, astral projection is a load of bull
Absolutely stupid statement.
As a creative person who experiences Aphantasia, this is an amazingly relevant...
When Ketamine is more available worldwide, we will discover much more!, thank you both so much for your research and work.
I have aphantasia. No i can’t imagine this or that so don’t make me try. It literally feels like my head is empty, yet i can still “see” imagery, it’s just not like i can picture it in my hand for example. It’s in the back of my mind but i can’t bring it out into the real world as some people might be able to do. I don’t know if it’s genetic or not, my mom can see imagery and she was surprised when i told her about it.
Cannot imagine being unable to visualize things in my mind, when I visualize stuff its always in easily manipulable high quality images that can be animated and the like
yup. We got superior processing power.
No wonder I get tired easily 😂 I can imagine how much I’d get done if I wasn’t able to do this so well.
@@nikkireigns As someone with aphantasia, but not a very total one, it literally feels like my brain is burning a lot of calories for me when I try really hard to imagine things, and all I get is very faint shadowy lines and shapes in a very foggy abysmal void, so I imagine someone with a full one would get drained easily.
@@SamGarcia do you find that you’re good at things like math and science? I’ve always struggled with those but love reading and writing and art. Just curious if there might be a correlation there somewhere
@@nikkireigns While I do love math and science, I can't do math in my head, I do it with pen and paper, because I have to image the symbols to do it in my head.
There might be some correlation, but simply, I just find that people with aphantasia simply think outside our head (like the pen and paper math I just said) compared to people who think inside their head.
I have an internal dialogue, so I talk to myself in my head, but apparently, some people don't have an internal dialogue, and I believe they talk to themselves out loud with their mouth instead to make up for that. So really, anything you can do in your head with images, we can/try to do outside our head. If you try to make an image in your head, well, we have to make with our hands a real statue outside our head.
I once had a lucid dream where I wanted to test the limits of the human minds ability to recreate reality. I studied my hands and saw that no detail was missing from them. I went over to the grass and pull some of it out so that I might see every spec of it. I saw it all, no particular was too small for my mind to simulate. I looked around and there was nothing wrong with anything. How frightening it must be to hallucinate in real life, knowing how well the mind simulates reality.
I really struggle to rotate objects in my head
What do you experience when you try to do it? Do you "see" anything?
You are just bad at geometry