ShibuHal: Company Vtubers going indie / moving companies, from a Vtuber company owner POV 【EngSub】
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2023
- #neoporte切り抜き
Clipped this because I saw the JP version of the clip and thought this topic also has been quite relevant in the recent EN Vtuber community.
Disclaimer: This is from the POV of one guy from one company. Other companies obviously have different rules and approaches on how they handle this matter. It is not an end-all-be-all approval or disapproval either by me or Shibuya HAL to all cases of company Vtubers leaving their company. My personal opinion on the matter differs from ShibuHal, but I don't think either opinion invalidates each other and I don't think this video should invalidate yours either. I only want to provide a single opinion for you to form your own opinion upon.
Stream source 久々の雑談配信＋マシュマロ食べる【渋谷ハル】 • 久々の雑談配信＋マシュマロ食べる【渋谷ハル】
@ShibuyaHAL
@Met_Komori
@Patra_Suou
@ksonONAIR
As for Patra, while she did not disclose how much she paid to 774 inc for her IP, she did mention(albeit in a joking tone) that she has to take a 35 year loan for it. So while the 35 year thing is probably exaggerated, it is presumable that the price would indeed be massive
source: • ななしいんくを卒業し独立を決意した周防パトラ...
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![[ENG SUB] ShibuyaHAL learns English [ShibuyaHAL/Neoporte]](/img/n.gif)
Thank you for the translation! That's a good insight, especially since Hal knows the vtuber and company boss pov.
it's actually interesting to know Shibuhal's perspective on the topic since he was an indie who became a CEO of his own company.
It is quite insightful to see this perspective for once. Thank you for the translation.
It's also interesting to see him being conflicted as company owner and also fan.
thank you for the translation!! there’s not many translated clips of shibuhal’s insights as a ceo tbh. so i really appreciate that you took the time to translate this!
This a good topic since some vtuber fans continously argues that vtuber companies should just let the talents keep the name and model after they leave the company. Which just sounds wrong no matter what perspective you're trying to see this. This is the same thing for almost every job out there where you're pretty much being lended company property in order to do the job you're assigned to do. Once you leave or even get fired, you'd no longer have access to those. The company paid and invested in pretty much everything to get you started, it doesn't matter how popular or how much money you made from them, once you leave, you leave everything that doesn't belong to you before you joined, which in most cases your vtuber name and model. Of course if the company let you buy it off you it sounds like a good thing, but just like ShibuyaHal said in the video, it starts a precedent where pretty much everyone will ask to do it once they decide to leave but not everyone will be able to buy the rights to it since not all of them are successfully financially to be able to do it.
I literally said the same thing on twitter and people said shit like "stop sucking greedy company's dick" "imagine defending a company" to me lmao. Like wtf have those people worked in a company before? Lol
@@eiarsanbecause those are kids that know nothing about the business or adults with an undeveloped brain, driven by merely emotions. Plus its Twitter, its full of dumb and unreasonable people.
@@eiarsan they're just neet who never touch some grass bro 😂
That's a great way to see it. Maybe that's where the predecent of not talking about the past personas of a talent has come from, because you cannot be associated publicly with that persona cause you do not own the rights to it. If we take Henya as the most recent example, she's not exactly hiding or trying to change her way of speaking from her past persona. So I don't think she herself cares about being associated with her past persona, but she can't acknowledge it because another company owns the rights to their past persona.
Stepping stone aka being NTRed/played by your employee.
Never let yourself be a cuck at the pointing end of a gun. Keep the leash tight.
Edgy and uncalled for I know, but that's how every single job on the market is about.
I'm glad you clipped this. He repeated ALL the talking points that I suspected would contribute to managing vtuber IPs.
Too many children on reddit and twitter with no business experience making illogical comments
Thanks for translating & sharing insight on this topic.
Thanks for the clip and translation! It's something I think of sometimes, so it's nice to hear it being talked about by a VTuber - someone who also runs a VTuber company no less.
its really an insider question but he is so chill to share something, i like his style
The issue about selling the Vtuber IP is merchandise. If you sell the IP you cannot sell merchandise of that character anymore. For example, if the vtuber buys the model off the company, if the company chooses to create cards or posters with the character, they can be sued and held liable. This also goes for continuing to sell merch from already created merchandise and group merchandise with that IP involved. Its a really messy situation and most companies would rather not deal with it, so if they own the model, they would not sell it. They would most probably sell it if they have financial issues or huge projects which have gone over budget.
Yea, if yiu wanna buy it, you gonna buy the WHOLE IP and of course including the merchandising rights of said character. It is actually doable, if you have the MONEY and you can negotiate well with the Company. Pretty hard & complicated, but doable if you have determination and money to back it off.
Yeah, this part is also specific, need to have the IP allowing everything, the contract must contain everything that will be used. This part, i'm not sure what should and can be included, maybe the accounts, channel, avatar, character design, redesign, name, products, the 3D (if they have), voice, music, broadcasting, app for the avatar, also need to think about future useds too.
Another part is no matter what, the original creator can't be transfered. That means, in a situation that the company made the character, once the company close, the entire rights can't be changed, or depending on what was included on the IP contract can't be used for future investiments.
Maybe the solution is on a different approach, when both the streamer and company creates the character, "they both become the creators". Once they want to leave, it's easier to transfer the company's share to the streamer or even the opposite.
@@leandroiuki4337 The bureaucracy of the various aspects of transferring an IP is a given, but the one biggest hurdle is deciding on how much an IP is worth. For example, one of the commenters mentioned "a certain Souchou" (Kson basically) was quoted ￥200 mil yen (around $1.5 mil USD today) which I assume is the price Cover wanted for Kiryu Coco.
The argument here is if the IP of Coco is worth that much. Obviously Kson didn't buy the IP in the end since she'd rather pay Himono (@himono_vtuber) a year's worth of wages (￥10-20 mil yen is my guess) to rig a new Kson model over buying Coco, which is only like 1/10 of the price. Now the question is, is Cover's asking price reasonable, or are they out of their minds? You could argue that Cover spend a massive sum promoting Coco over the 18 months she was active; all the promotion campaigns, costs for multiple 2D and and 3D creation/rigging, costs to run a 3D live/concert, etc. The cost of all those can pile up easily. But then there's the argument that the avatar Coco is only worth it's weight in gold when combined with Kson behind the avatar.
So the biggest hurdle is actually negotiating a price that both parties can agree on.
@@makaijin im pretty sure the talent has to pay partial for shit like 3d live/concerts and mvs etc...source lamy talkin about her bill and bae sayin the one million yen wont even cover a mv
I really enjoyed learning about the financial side of Vtuber corporations, I'm glad HAL was willing to have an open discussion about it!
It must of been a little hard to translate a business discussion, thank you!
thanks for the clip! I saw the JP clip of this but its too difficult for me to understand because too many bussiness word on it
ty for the tl clip!
I really respect companies who let their talents go indie without graduating. I always feel bad for the artists who drew them so beautifully/handsomely go to waste.
Can totally understand ShibuHal's POV because he's the owner of Vtuber company
Souchou tried to do what?
Leaving a company to go indie is still graduating, no? Graduating from the company, not graduating from VTubing.
@@divingradishofc no. Graduating = abandon your character
@@HitogoroshiCh nope, graduation/debut culture comes from idol entertainment industry so graduation simply mean ended association with a group/company/act.
To fully imply retreat from the scene/industry as a whole would be "retiring"
@@HitogoroshiCh Some idols graduate and became actresses, they graduate from being an idol but their fans can still see them as an actress but I guess the term graduate is different in vtubing. In vtubing since their persona is owned by the company I assume graduate means end of that character.
@@KenRyuu1 learn to read maybe? where I told something about retreating from scene?
It's interesting talk from CEO Apex jp himself
Hal is also an owner of Neoporte, a new vtuber agency so he also sees things as someone who actually manages vtubers.
@@Eins3467 i knew, the ceo apex is a joke too
Bro until this day still cant realize ShibuHal is the actual head leader of NeoPorte
In the topic of the personalities *behind* the VTuber persona, the idea here is that we have establish an acquiescence over the rights of a virtual avatar, the manner of which the personalities establish and developed their assigned persona, and the established relationship between the sponsors and the VTuber management company. You cannot deviate from the common established norms/procedures (unless explicitly written in their contract agreements) in the VTuber entertainment industry, and that is: you don't "represent" the VTuber persona as the personality behind it; you merely retain the services of a company willing to spend money on your appearances and contract managements necessary to hook you up with other business partners of the industry. Wanna collab with a seiyuu? Go to your talent manager. Wanna do a stunt that few streamers/VTubers actually do? Get clearance from the higher management of the company.
It's easy to talk about this topic, but the truth of the matter is: you are merely a customer in a business relationship between the personalities behind the VTuber persona and the company that created those persona.
I feel that you’ve written this in a quite dry tone, almost in a negative/critical manner. But the fact of the matter is that is true for most entertainers unless they managed to make it on their own (which only cuts the middle man out). Even then, you’re always a customer for every entertainment industry worker, your entertainment is their subsistence. Sure, smaller content creators will maintain a more tight knit community but that changes if they get big and 99% of people wanna get big, that’s the incentive of joining a corporation.
@@Lucaz99 w.r.t. my tone: I don't really care about it, because at the end of the day, people need to read the contract, and read them *diligently* . We already witnessed a few talents losing their hard-earned intellectual properties (their own VTuber model, rigging, character designs, etc.) upon leaving their agency, because their agency "bought over" the rights to their VTuber designs. (I forget who it was, but it was recent.)
People interested in becoming an entertainer/VTuber/streamer must be able to find out the knowledge of how contract works in the entertainment industry. If they want to retain the creative rights to their avatar models and designs, they must be aware that not every big agency is forgiving about that.
@@FiredAndIced I don't know who you're talking about, but there's another case like Azuma Lim that won over her Vtuber persona as "Azuma Lim" and her own channel with the help of lawyer since her previous Vtuber agency want it back, till today she still remain as Azuma Lim and stay as indie Vtuber
@@FiredAndIced I guess you're talking about Yuri from Phase Invaders. She started indie
Very interesting clip, the company's side is pretty complicated. It makes you wonder what were the deals behind the scene for Met to be able to transfer to vspo, because they basically got a fully formed pretty popular vtuber without any of the development cost.
Also for the performer side it seems like the best behavior is to cultivate your corporate and personnal channel side by side so you don't loose too much if you ever need to change identity. But again it could be seen as just using the company as a stepping stone to fuel viewers to your other channel
Probably the biggest case of someone (true or not) hit by this controversy is Laplus I guess.
Not a long ago seen a clip where Henya said "I don't even understand a difference between company and agency". Before this sentence i didn't think about this too, but I guess company start a vtuber person from zero and agency is recruiting vtubers who already was famous. As company it's Hololive, AnyColor, NeoPorte and others. As agency is Vshojo, 774 and others. The second one take under their wing (temporarily) the Vtubers who asked to them (for example, for help in management), or the agency itself is looking for someone to create a name for itself.
Both ways of leading their companies is right, but both of them has their own problems. If you a vtuber for a company and you want too leave company, than you must a leave a model, because all right on them set out in a contract. You know this awkward situation when vtubers from big company graduating and with reborning on other model (Kson, Henya, Tsuna, Delutaya and others). I guess their are can't even imagine too collab with members whose was a friend to you even month before.
And even agencies have their own problems, because one of vtubers will not renew the contact and instantly will be open a branch on 4chan where will be discussed that everyone quarreled among themselves (agency and vtuber) and there is some kind of conflict.
comparing company with agency is like comparing fruit with orange. Agency is company. A company that provides service to their clients. In the case of talent agency, the talents are the clients.
If you want to compare VShojo vs Hololive, it is better to use "Talent Agency Company vs Intellectual Property Company".
Talent Agency Company helps their talents to get business deals.
Intellectual Property Company license their IPs to other parties.
And there is something interesting. In their official site, Hololive call themself as "VTuber agencies". My interpretation is that, just like talent agency, Hololive helps their VTubers to get business deals. The thing is "Vtuber" here is not just the human talent behind the character, but also the character which the IP owned by Hololive. Hololive is VTuber agency, but not talent agency. Again, this paragraph is just my subjective interpretation.
Even if it's difficult I do like when companies manage to avoid the worst case of needing reincarnation, here's hoping as things keep progressing this happens every now and then the examples make it easier for agreements to be made for this kind of thing that work out for both parties.
Big props to Noripro too for letting Kirara and Momo go indie as well btw., it was a really pleasant surprise to see the announcement Kirara was coming back after her graduation.
Those are her friends anyway just asking favor from a friend which is not that hard to do. I don't see noripro as corpo more like group of friends.
Momo is also an indie now? that's news for me
Very thought provoking, people *on that side of the internet, if you catch my drift* , need to watch this clip so they could get a better understanding before they spurt some nonsense
.
Thank you for the clip 🙏
Interesting discussion.
Also reminds me of Momo Kurumizawa........who was originally with Nori Production (the one operated by Norio Tsukudani / Inuyama Tamaki) but decided to go indie.
I think the moment you established yourself even if you reincarnate as a different persona people will still follow you since they already know who you are. Buying rights to a model has no value when the person already has a following. Just make a better model design for your next one. I agree there are people who use small companies as stepping stones to first get publicity then the moment they get a following they turn indie to get all the profit for themselves, it's bad manners. On the other hand, joining a big company like Hololive will give you massive exposure so if you have the talent for streaming you're set.
The idea behind a graduation is that a chapter ends and a new one begins. And normally a vtuber graduation follows that as well, the talent behind the model wants to rebrand for X or Y motive.
As also a utaite fan, even with a simple name change there's a chance that they'll lose audience. Because what really determinates if they'll keep their old audience is the content they make and they can't really control if audience wants to stay after changing the content.
It's a pretty difficult topic overall because of all the parts involved with vtubing. I wish there was a more clear win-win scenario that would work but it's hard not to see potential drawbacks. With larger companies it might work to give/sell the IPs but then it would suck for smaller agency vtubers that might not have the same luxury of retaining their models and having to start all over. It's not fair to be stuck at on employer, but it's hard to justify companies giving away the IPs despite the heavy initial investment costs.
that last bit is basically ShibuHal saying if he's the head honcho of Vshojo JP then he thinks it was worth it.
It really is complicated, as long as there’s a better offer people will want to take it. But then what happens to those who depend on the old agree ment? It hits home especially when you see what’s going on with Nijisanji right now.
what's going on with nijisanji?
@@04hinorinnn Terrible management and possible power abuse from the company has led to mass resignations of livers especially from ex-ID and ex-KR.
@@communismwithgiggles2515 oh, i didn't know it...
yeah im not a fan people going indie 'cause the company ACTUALLY is a stepping stone for that person and a MAJOR kickstart
not sure about Patra but Komori Met already said that She would just graduate if They don't accept It since the purpose of both side already deviated
not sure about the lawyer part though, even if You get lawyer about They asked talents to pay the models that They own if They want to continue, I wonder if They can even win that plus doesn't that need you to dox yourself first
@@zir456 it also that vspo staff also contribute to her transfer. And they already have experience in similar like this and they succeed.
I mean look like they rn has 2 talents that transferred from other agencies, met and qpi. And there's other one who's to be known as a reincarnation.
All in different ways, like hal said. Going indie bcs the agencies dissolved, or going transfer directly between agencies or even quitting and became reincarnated.
@@zir456 I think the lawyer part was specifically about a company going under but still trying to hold on to an IP that would be lost anyway, instead of selling/handing over the rights to the streamer in question.
@@thatdarnskag5043 but even if It's that way, the talents still wouldn't win since I already few got graduated due to that case so I wonder what Hal actually mean👀
@@zir456 remind that they still would have to buy it from the company
If they want to go indie, i would just ask them to pay like.... 50% of their "total earning" they made when they still in the company.
Seems appropriate for big name, but then again.... It's quite complicated when we start calculating their "future earning" as well.
Investing to human/personnel is the hardest type of investment.
"Recoup 200 million in 10 years"
I think there's one big problem with that view point though. You're assuming the VTuber will stick with you that long when VTubing in its current state (as in the way we know it now as "started" by Kizuna Ai) has only been around for around 5 years. Whether it will still be around for 10 years (or how the VTubing genre/model changes) is something no one can picture.
I was thinking this exact same thing at that comment. When talking about typical business stuff, sure 5-10 years is normal. But in the vtubing topics, thinking in cycles of 1 year or so are more realistic for now I feel. This is just true of any tech field too though to some degree, as it is one of the more fluid and fast evolving sectors.
@@chewtoy1107 Which more so underlines the problem that the company is taking all the financial risks for you, so it makes sense that they are not so keen on the idea of their employees or contractors treating their company as a stepping stone.
@@chewtoy1107 I think this vtuber stuff has promising future tho. The community already accept it as kinda subgenre of the internet culture.
Of course vtuber itself booming bcs the pandrmic time when ppl start looking some sort of entertainment. But i think it's pretty similar like what happen with vocaloid or utaite. Those still relevant to this day right?
@@chewtoy1107 maybe Vtubing will not survive 3 more years in Western side but in Japanese side it probably last longer knowing how Vocaloid, Utaite and some Idol business still relevant there.
@@blackblade7757 3 years? vtubers are getting more and more popular, I don't see them diying on my lifetime.
The biggest issue I have is with the secrecy of the talent behind the avatar. In most media jobs you get credited as the voice actor etc. but for corpo vtubers lack of credit is used to make quitting or getting fired a major threat to their career being erased. If the talent leaves in good standing they should include social media accounts to follow them afterward.
then again that privacy is why they are vtubers in the first place so often its up to the internet to find their next incarnation
774 lost a huge Vtuber, but I see them as a good company because they let Patra go like that. It raises their reputation and might lead to other new VTubers joining
Sure they also get money back, but of course they would prefer her to stay, instead they chose to support her future activities👍
"Sure" there is nothing "sure"
@@cionm7077 Well Patra bought the rights for her character didn't she ?
You used "sure" in another sentence and i think they are referring to it
@@rodpepo6372 I only see 1 "sure". Did you mean the sentence with "of course"?
sure reputation of not making their vtuber popular enough to make a decent living.
4:00 imagine trading talents like trading players lmfao
this is a game of numbers if u know what ur doing play ur cards.
Haha like a sports trade or a draft combine.
Reminds me of former Cyberlive chuubas that went to Phase Connect.
Or a few indies that decide to go with Sony (e.g. Kohaku to Vee Project ; and Nana Asteria being a part of PRISM Project)
(Idk if this is a sensitive topic or not so feel free to delete my comment)
On the topic of vtuber companies, I think WACTOR is still out there going with another name and "hurting" more people. The company was so bad it led to a (ex)-talent, also an oshi of mine, almost lose their own life. So be careful guys and gals, you'll never what might happen with an ordinary company.
Who is that certain souchou that hal mentioned? Himself?
coco
yeah, the only ethical way I see is if a company goes bankrupt
It looks like there is a very wide spectrum of vtuber companies based around how much they provide and how much freedom they give. I really do not agree with the worry about vtubers using their agency as a springboard to then leave though. To me that just shows the company is not providing the necessary value and I believe in the future all vtubers will own their own models and art.
Think about it from another point of view. When a Vtuber leaves, that model and IP is gone forever regardless, and its very unlikely to ever be used for merchandising or sales again. In other words, the company would be keeping hold of a dead IP (because fans would almost never accept another VA for that character). So instead of just keeping rights to a dead asset, its better to sell it back to the former talent if they want to buy it. This is a win win situation for everyone. The Vtuber keeps their model and online identity. The company gets a high short term profit.
The only thing the company has to consider is that people might attribute the actions of the now independent vtuber as part of the original company.
Other than that, I'm of the belief that they should always sell the IP rights to the original talent, because it makes sense on every level especially a monetary perspective, unless they have massive beef with each other (ala WACTOR and Nijisanji).
As for the valuation of the model, it would depend on how they want to calculate present value of total future revenue potential of the model (in essence it would be like how they value stock). In which case, for most successful Vtuber IP's, it would be far above $100K, and perhaps go above the millions for super stars (for instance, Coco's IP could have easily be worth over 10 million USD, and Pekora and Kuzuha are well above that), other wise, your company would literally just be a stepping stone (this is excluding the vshojo model, where their talents already have pre-existing IP when they enter).
They actually still sell their merch.
concerning
i think hololive have a cleaner path about what's going on with their character, IDOL as whole always intact with a group/ companies, they chose the idol path for their talent because it was easier to adjust, it can be like, Before they join hololive they are not idol, and so after final stage of an idol which is GRADUATION with whatsoever cause, they are no longer idol. and so was their character, which created with IDOL background so they couldn't use it outside hololive because of a NON-IDOL factor.
Nijisanji is not branded as idols, yet they do the same method regarding those. So I don't think being Idol format or not really matter in this situation.
@@Cosmoman78 agree. Isn't every company works like that?
what if they want to be an idol for another company?
@@Cosmoman78 well yeah, because nijisanji/hololive are too big for the talent to fight to begin with.
And that kind of (my take above) excuse only apply for hololive, because their IDOL brand.
@@Pepe-dq2ib are there actual case of that? I mean, in real life case when an idol moving to another idol grup,
I dont know other vtuber company with idol brand other than hololive exist rn...
this is like football player transfers, imagine that whole hololive team member mostly like Ronaldo and Messi, while other company like nijisanji have only 3-5 ronaldo and messi, and other vspo, neoporte, 774, etc. only have 1 star player or maybe all round balance team.
i'm not saying other company vtuber is bad, they're good, and had their own perk and talents.
I really hate the "stepping stone" argument. In the end of the day, its a business. In the end of the day, the corp is bigger then you as an individual. So they are always going to look after themselves. So should you! So never be so "loyal" to a copr to the point you would sabotage your own career.
That rule can ble aplied to all jobs. To many times ahve I see people give above and beyond of their time and efforts to a big business and never get any recognition, or atleast close to what they have sacrifised for them. So now, I give about 80-90% when I am at work. Its not worth, cuz in the end, the big boss dont give a rats ass. He can easly hire a new worker. You cant get your health back.
Atleast that is my take on that one argument.
One other thing I dissagree with what he said about selling rights of the character etc. He said its a "hard choice", I dont agree. If the person operating the character is interested in buying the rights, but not interested in staying in the agency, why not sell. Again, its a business. So why not get a last payout and selling the rights, or getting a % for a year or 2, instead of laying the character dead. To me it sounds like a easy decision. Its like selling off old equpment if you are a heavy machinery business.
well tbf that's from his own POV Hal literally coming from small indie Vtuber to own literally a Vtuber agency, he was also part of Upd8 back in 2018 and left since the agency dissolved he def know more than us he just said buying the right of chararcter is not as simple as it looked.
well, it is a business. Both parties need to agree with the transaction. It is nothing wrong if one party doesn't want to sell their property for whatever reason, especially if they can't agree on the price.
Edit: I think I got it wrong and you meant that "You're doing business, why are you refusing easy money?".
Some possibility:
- They already have plan for that kind of scenario
- They don't have plan for that kind of scenario and still not sure
- They don't want independent use of the character to affect their brand negatively
- They can't agree on the price
- They want to stick to their existing business plan
I personally think renting the character could be a potentially good scheme. Maybe with some limitation like, "you need to work for us for at least 5 year before you can rent the character". But, it still depends on their branding strategy.
That's idiotic, "In the end of the day, its a business" you are assuming every business is a McDonald's were they can just do whatever they want because they have billions of dollars. Is not like that, the entire business depends on the vtuber. Losing a Vtuber is not like losing "a piece of equipment" or even losing someone that helds a "common" position in the company. If mcdonalds loses a manager, they hire another one and both functionally are the same thing. This is not a normal busineess. You have to think that this is not a "normal" company and employee relationship. Most companies dont care if you leave because they can replace you. You cant "replace" a personality. Having another vtuber doesnt guarantee that people will like them or that they will reach the same amount of popularity. Also, common sense. To let vtubers go like that is to let the an entire stream of income go, not just any position in a company but the engine of the company, if you create a precedent were the most popular ones making millions leave because they no longer need the company then everyone would want to leave once they are popular enough. Basically as a vtuber company president you would be the most idiotic president and make the entire thing go under if that happens. I know you get a hard on for the employee when you hear a company vs employee argument, I am middle class I know, but if a vtuber wants to go solo they shouldn't have signed the contract in the first place because this is not like working at starbucks. This is not a "normal" industry. You can't just make a new million dollar worth personality everytime a vtuber leaves. If it were possible to just easily sell vtuber rights then Vtuber agencies would not exist, it would be a stupid business model with no worth to investors because is not reliable in the long term. Use common sense. Shit, is probably easier for investors to replace a president than to replace a popular vtuber, because the president is not the stream of income. Point is that as a company hiring someone who just wants to work there for a while and then leave with the entire rig and fanbase is dumb, like they can leave and start with a new rig then, even then the company loses the most. The vtuber might still have the chance to recover after all they are the same "personality".
You are wrong the name coco still generates money for cover to this day.