👉 Read: Audioholics Petition to 2024 FTC Amplifier Rule: www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/ftc-final-amplifier-rule-2024 👉 Petition the FTC to Reopen the Final Amplifier Rule BEFORE November 8th, 2024: www.regulations.gov/commenton/FTC-2024-0039-0001 Support on Patreon: www.patreon.com/jayiyagi follow on Instagram: instagram.com/jays_iyagi/ follow on Facebook: facebook.com/jayiyagiofficial Follow soundstage take 2 reviews: ua-cam.com/play/PLPOzvlhtSqn5xdc__ftuSt4Rxy_wm5Af0.html Speaker stands: amzn.to/3ssRhI3 Better speaker stands: solidsteel.it/my-product/ss-7-vintage-hi-fi-speaker-stands/ acoustic panels I use: ua-acoustics.com/ acoustic curtain: amzn.to/31d1zAM BDI Cabinet I use: bit.ly/2OJRwQQ amzn.to/3chBuFZ other BDI Cabinets: bit.ly/3ctxXV1 amzn.to/30bsUCH my fav hifi tweaks: (Isoacoustics devices) amzn.to/3j5FGvM
I also agree with the regulation But I also agree that companies use uneducation and stupidity in their consumers to sell their products by showing specs that have no effect on the sound quality. We still see a lot of people asking for Watts when audio experts mostly agree that Watts is not an indicator of quality or power. Thank you for making this video. Hope lots of people get educated by it.
You need at most 250w for any competently made loudspeaker. Most designs thrive at 150w and then you have extreme cases where you should only give 5-25w to achieve best sound quality.
@@phetmoz That depends on whether or not you want dynamics to be limited or unlimited in your system. And of course it depends on the sensitivity of your speakers. Any system that does not allow 120+ db peaks is limited in it's capacity to accurately recreate any and all live acoustic music. Very few systems achieve this level of dynamics capacity and it is often the result of the amplifier lacking the real world power that creates the limitation.
@@scottwheeler2679 sure, but in my experience you almost inevitably lose some aspects of finesse and purity the greater the wattage utilized. You amplify impurities in the signal. Am I wrong?
The real problem is the ability of the amp to deliver current to the speakers, so you can achieve adequate dynamics. The other problem is that speakers are still sensitivity rated at db at 1 meter at 1KHz. It doesn't tell you anything about how hard it is to pump out the sub bass
Through the 80's and into late 90's amplifier power was rated as RMS continuous power, ALL channels driven, into 8,4 and 2 ohms across the frequency band (20 to 20 kHz) plus noise (mininmum 0.1%). Then sometime in the 90's the FTC amended the requirements and the rating system and practices changed. Now most manufacturers rate amps max power at 1kHz at 6 ohms, we rarely see amps rated with continuous power into 8, 4 and 2 ohms. The RMS power rating is the most accurate because it specifies the Average Continuous Power the amp is able to deliver from 20 Hz to 20 kH at specific impedance loads, within the minimum noise requirement with ALL channels driven. Time to resurrect Lazarus ????
20 hz -20khz should not be an issue for any competent amp. If it is you have a wonky frequency response from your amp which *should* be disclosed anyway. If a class D amp is shutting down in 5 minutes at a particular power output level it should not be rated at that power. 8 ohms standard is a great rule. It creates a needed standard. Many amp manufacturers cheat by using their 4 ohm measurement which is often double the 8 ohm capacity. And none of this stops manufacturers from offering detailed measurements that would give a better and more complete understanding of an amp's power output. As for the standard being an option and the disclaimer being required I see no problem or any "wild wild west" scenario. If the disclaimer says they follow the FTC standard then you know the power ratings are reliable by those standards. If they use the disclaimer of not following the FTC rule you know the specs are suspect and warrant further investigation. Truth in advertising is essential for consumers to make informed decisions. There is far far far too little truth in advertising in high end audio.
Truth over Claims please. The small engine manufacturers were forced to change their deceptive ways after decades of lies. The audio industry and many others should not be let off the hook either.
FTC ruling shows they are not audiophiles or engineers.. nor does it show they consulted with knowledgable people .. say.. from the AES. I hope to see a lot of people in the industry and other areas make this rule more balanced to enforce " accurate real world " standard ratings.
i agree with the regulation, it'll force the industry to have better standards. Linearity is very important and too many company lie about it. It'll force manufacturer to show us real data. They still can say 100 watt, they just have to include all the distorsion levels
For those who relied on any Federal Government agency to care for and protect them, the incoming administration says “Bless your hearts, you sweet summer children; now let your rulers take over”
If you're shopping solely based on the power spec, the standard is fine. If on the other hand you're shopping based on listening, or the recommendations of shop employees or reviewers, the power spec doesn't matter.
If I'm considering a Class A or Class A/B amplifier and want to know about the power- I'm looking at the transformer. When I look at an amp with a switched-mode power supply it probably has surface mount devices and will be Beyond Economical Repair as soon as the weakest part fails. Toys basically
If you can afford high-end, I wouldn't worry about it too much, especially with the glut of internet information out there. Most folks will be buying the best-rated cheap stuff they can afford. I'll be going for used if anything breaks down.
Thanks for adding some rationality to the world of audio! But I doubt this will ever extend to government :) Feel better my friend. Blessings and thanks!
Sort of agree. It does sort of level the playing field. Like EPA (? Maybe another org) that puts fuel economy stickers on new cars, maybe not accurate in the real world. Also, some car manufacturers don’t list Hp numbers. It might help the masses, having 1 rule. Most of your viewers, audiophiles, do a lot of research, and don’t really rely on advertised numbers anyway. A lot of “low powered” amps in hifi systems. It may be an unrealistic measure if performance, but it is a level playing field.
In my view, the official specs published by manufacturers aren’t particularly meaningful-whether regulated by the FTC or not. The regulation feels somewhat naive, as hi-fi manufacturers are only bound by it within American borders. Outside the U.S., they can continue publishing specs using their own methodologies, and these figures are still available for anyone interested. Ultimately, relying on results from independent testers who publish their methodology and reviews, combined with trusting our own ears, is the best approach.
I am not feeling sorry at the least for class D amp builders. After all they are probably the ones that got us in this mess with their 350W amplifiers that get blown out of the water, in power delivery, by a vintage 12W Sansui receiver. So they made their bed and now they can sleep in it. Tube amps also may fall between the cracks, because they may not reach 20 Hz very well. But luckily customers of serious tube amps are on average more sophisticated and will not buy an amp purely based on its output power, whilst tube amps that can barely reach 70 Hz will have some explaining to do which is not bad either.
“He” who, precisely? If it’s to whom one might assume you’re alluding, it’s unlikely he cares about, or even understands what the FTC’s purpose is; “Protect consumers, why the F would we want to do that? We’ll get Elon to tell them what’s good for them, and if they don’t like it, too bad”
👉 Read: Audioholics Petition to 2024 FTC Amplifier Rule: www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/ftc-final-amplifier-rule-2024
👉 Petition the FTC to Reopen the Final Amplifier Rule BEFORE November 8th, 2024: www.regulations.gov/commenton/FTC-2024-0039-0001
Support on Patreon: www.patreon.com/jayiyagi
follow on Instagram: instagram.com/jays_iyagi/
follow on Facebook: facebook.com/jayiyagiofficial
Follow soundstage take 2 reviews: ua-cam.com/play/PLPOzvlhtSqn5xdc__ftuSt4Rxy_wm5Af0.html
Speaker stands: amzn.to/3ssRhI3
Better speaker stands: solidsteel.it/my-product/ss-7-vintage-hi-fi-speaker-stands/
acoustic panels I use: ua-acoustics.com/
acoustic curtain: amzn.to/31d1zAM
BDI Cabinet I use: bit.ly/2OJRwQQ
amzn.to/3chBuFZ
other BDI Cabinets: bit.ly/3ctxXV1
amzn.to/30bsUCH
my fav hifi tweaks: (Isoacoustics devices) amzn.to/3j5FGvM
Now we need speaker manufacturers to declare real ohm ratings including impedance curve.
I also agree with the regulation
But I also agree that companies use uneducation and stupidity in their consumers to sell their products by showing specs that have no effect on the sound quality.
We still see a lot of people asking for Watts when audio experts mostly agree that Watts is not an indicator of quality or power.
Thank you for making this video. Hope lots of people get educated by it.
You need at most 250w for any competently made loudspeaker. Most designs thrive at 150w and then you have extreme cases where you should only give 5-25w to achieve best sound quality.
@@phetmoz That depends on whether or not you want dynamics to be limited or unlimited in your system. And of course it depends on the sensitivity of your speakers. Any system that does not allow 120+ db peaks is limited in it's capacity to accurately recreate any and all live acoustic music. Very few systems achieve this level of dynamics capacity and it is often the result of the amplifier lacking the real world power that creates the limitation.
@@scottwheeler2679 sure, but in my experience you almost inevitably lose some aspects of finesse and purity the greater the wattage utilized. You amplify impurities in the signal. Am I wrong?
The real problem is the ability of the amp to deliver current to the speakers, so you can achieve adequate dynamics. The other problem is that speakers are still sensitivity rated at db at 1 meter at 1KHz. It doesn't tell you anything about how hard it is to pump out the sub bass
Through the 80's and into late 90's amplifier power was rated as RMS continuous power, ALL channels driven, into 8,4 and 2 ohms across the frequency band (20 to 20 kHz) plus noise (mininmum 0.1%). Then sometime in the 90's the FTC amended the requirements and the rating system and practices changed. Now most manufacturers rate amps max power at 1kHz at 6 ohms, we rarely see amps rated with continuous power into 8, 4 and 2 ohms.
The RMS power rating is the most accurate because it specifies the Average Continuous Power the amp is able to deliver from 20 Hz to 20 kH at specific impedance loads, within the minimum noise requirement with ALL channels driven.
Time to resurrect Lazarus ????
20 hz -20khz should not be an issue for any competent amp. If it is you have a wonky frequency response from your amp which *should* be disclosed anyway. If a class D amp is shutting down in 5 minutes at a particular power output level it should not be rated at that power. 8 ohms standard is a great rule. It creates a needed standard. Many amp manufacturers cheat by using their 4 ohm measurement which is often double the 8 ohm capacity. And none of this stops manufacturers from offering detailed measurements that would give a better and more complete understanding of an amp's power output. As for the standard being an option and the disclaimer being required I see no problem or any "wild wild west" scenario. If the disclaimer says they follow the FTC standard then you know the power ratings are reliable by those standards. If they use the disclaimer of not following the FTC rule you know the specs are suspect and warrant further investigation. Truth in advertising is essential for consumers to make informed decisions. There is far far far too little truth in advertising in high end audio.
One spec to rule them all, One spec to find them, One spec to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them, In the land of DC where the shadows lie.
Truth over Claims please. The small engine manufacturers were forced to change their deceptive ways after decades of lies. The audio industry and many others should not be let off the hook either.
FTC ruling shows they are not audiophiles or engineers.. nor does it show they consulted with knowledgable people .. say.. from the AES.
I hope to see a lot of people in the industry and other areas make this rule more balanced to enforce " accurate real world " standard ratings.
i agree with the regulation, it'll force the industry to have better standards. Linearity is very important and too many company lie about it. It'll force manufacturer to show us real data. They still can say 100 watt, they just have to include all the distorsion levels
Well the FTC is about to change drastically, as are all regulations. 🇺🇸
For those who relied on any Federal Government agency to care for and protect them, the incoming administration says “Bless your hearts, you sweet summer children; now let your rulers take over”
Good video. Thank you
If you're shopping solely based on the power spec, the standard is fine. If on the other hand you're shopping based on listening, or the recommendations of shop employees or reviewers, the power spec doesn't matter.
If I'm considering a Class A or Class A/B amplifier and want to know about the power- I'm looking at the transformer.
When I look at an amp with a switched-mode power supply it probably has surface mount devices and will be Beyond Economical Repair as soon as the weakest part fails. Toys basically
If ur buying audiophile amps this really shouldn't apply to u I would think. Watts don't mean much in the tube community
If you can afford high-end, I wouldn't worry about it too much, especially with the glut of internet information out there. Most folks will be buying the best-rated cheap stuff they can afford. I'll be going for used if anything breaks down.
I also find it deceptive when a company has lower wattage at 8ohms , they post their wattage at 4ohms and try to hide the 8ohm specs. Pick one
Really both should be disclosed
I like that other guys idea of a simple impedance graph as well
Thanks for adding some rationality to the world of audio! But I doubt this will ever extend to government :)
Feel better my friend. Blessings and thanks!
I think with the newly Elected President hating Government Regulations this won't be a problem for long! 🤣
This New President is not yet the President. I doubt very much that he we be able to be a president in Jan 25.
i agree, FTC did not do any good with this.
why simplify and misinform when graphs should be the standard, at least for technical insight.
How is the FR5’s review going?
Sort of agree. It does sort of level the playing field. Like EPA (? Maybe another org) that puts fuel economy stickers on new cars, maybe not accurate in the real world. Also, some car manufacturers don’t list Hp numbers. It might help the masses, having 1 rule. Most of your viewers, audiophiles, do a lot of research, and don’t really rely on advertised numbers anyway. A lot of “low powered” amps in hifi systems. It may be an unrealistic measure if performance, but it is a level playing field.
I bought a bit of crud 🤧 from Audiofest
In my view, the official specs published by manufacturers aren’t particularly meaningful-whether regulated by the FTC or not. The regulation feels somewhat naive, as hi-fi manufacturers are only bound by it within American borders. Outside the U.S., they can continue publishing specs using their own methodologies, and these figures are still available for anyone interested.
Ultimately, relying on results from independent testers who publish their methodology and reviews, combined with trusting our own ears, is the best approach.
I am not feeling sorry at the least for class D amp builders. After all they are probably the ones that got us in this mess with their 350W amplifiers that get blown out of the water, in power delivery, by a vintage 12W Sansui receiver. So they made their bed and now they can sleep in it. Tube amps also may fall between the cracks, because they may not reach 20 Hz very well. But luckily customers of serious tube amps are on average more sophisticated and will not buy an amp purely based on its output power, whilst tube amps that can barely reach 70 Hz will have some explaining to do which is not bad either.
I knew that was coming
Can this petition be joined by non US citizens?
incompetent regulations? colour me shocked. Bullsh!t like this is one of the reasons he's coming back.
He who?
“He” who, precisely? If it’s to whom one might assume you’re alluding, it’s unlikely he cares about, or even understands what the FTC’s purpose is; “Protect consumers, why the F would we want to do that? We’ll get Elon to tell them what’s good for them, and if they don’t like it, too bad”
he delegates, ask the representative to assign/appoint someone who knows his/her stuff, ask sensibly
instead of screaming Goldstein
There is nothing "incompetent" about these particular regulations.
F THE FEDS