Proudly flying my Munster flag for Flannery, but genuinely one of the best GBR pods to date. Happy to hear I'm not the only Lions supporter who can see Rassies perspective. He's one of the smartest minds in the game, and whether you think he deserves the book thrown at him or whether his actions were justifiable, the man put the thought into it and it might end up bettering the game overall in time. Massive weekend to come.
There were some good points made by Alex Goode on house of Rugby. Publicly scrutinizing the refs isn't going to attract many people to ref in the future. He could have sent the video to world rugby, he didn't need to make it public.
@@dbjmk8083 How dare you mention HoR on this channel!?! 😂 TBF though Rassie did, those style videos are literally what they send to the Refs/WR to get feedback on. I respect the point but feel its overblown. Refs get far worse abuse in soccer and there are still refs who want to do it. The no public criticism of refs thing means that if the broader systems are failing, or individual refs are, then that can't even be discussed? The law that you can't publicly criticise refs has good intentions. But if that rule prevents the standard of refs improving, or allows WR to ignore the broader systemic issues then that has to be addressed too. I also don't buy into the notion that if reasonable criticism suddenly were allowed, the game would just become soccer overnight. So long as the critiques are reasonable, measured, and respectful it won't change the game.
@@Doradexplora lmao, should have thought about that, could you talk about the beef for a moment? Not sure what happened. I agree it won't descend into football over night, the gentleman culture is too strong but the degeneration could start with a single moment and so it should be condemned.
I think a lot of people are focusing on the 26 things Rassie pointed out. The point they are missing is that the Boks had a meeting with Berry the week of the game and he said "if you do these things like come in from the side, or rip the ball when there is a knee down" I will penalize you. They followed his direction but then the Lions did the same thing and were not penalized. That's what pissed off Rassie. He refereed the Boks differently to the Lions.
Funny how rugby is getting more complicated year after year but still have only one ref in charge. You have 3 other refs more or less twiddling their thumbs and not used as they could be.
I disagree. I think he was arguing that his team wasn't getting the respect ot was entitled to, and was suffering bad decisions due to unconscious bias. But that's just me.
Totally with Haskell, referees should have a burden of performance just like everyone else. You can't be reprieved all the time when your officiating influences results.
Love the Podcast but listening to a lot of the British and Irish commentary on the B&I Lions tour in the lead up to the 3rd test and they seem to be trying paint a picture of a Boks side constantly slowing things down and not wanting to play rugby (despite us having scored 3 tries to their 1, so far). With that in mind let's not forget the Lions Tour of '97, which is touted as one of the great Lions achievements in modern times. After losing the first test we fielded an attack minded team in the second test with Henry Honiball at 10, who was a great attacker but a kak kicker. We scored 3 tries to zip, missed all our kicks at and lost the game with 15 pts to 5 pens and drop goal. And the series finished with the Boks scoring 9 tries to the Lions 3! Bring on Sat can't bloody wait! I am confident, but I know there is not much in it. Hope it is a hell of a game of rugby, but I will happily take a slug/kick fest and a one point win and leave the razzle dazzle to the AB's and the Fijians!
Genge sounding every bit the captain with that tactical analysis and solution to a boc sized problem. I agree too that either go big or go home, get something left field going like putting smith in there, with simmons on the bench they have a similar axis to the smith dommers..Plus if you’re looking for get the ball moving and attacking soft shoulders, how better to do it than in conventional attacking and pace… should be a great game.
Quins this season proved that rugby can be played with a more amatuer spirit of joy and being player led while making it at the top. I hope it becomes the new blueprint for the game
How to beat the Box? For a start, much deeper back line to spoil the rush defence, then set moves, chips behind out of line defenders? , chips to wings, back row inside passing - innovative style. Fin Russell or Smith? But I agree with all the presenters, it’s a hard hard ask….
Jerry's being very generous about Rassie's motivations. He made the video for two reasons: 1. To divert the attention of the South African rugby press and public from the loss 2. To place pressure on the officials ahead of the second test.
Finally someone talking about it, appreciate the in depth analysis. It was all done because springboks weren't on par and it managed to get them a decider. Hopefully we get a more old school style of officiating from this so that rugby actually wins not just individuals within the game with clout. Good honesty from Jerry
People are missing the pojnt and Erasmus explained. He has issues with the ref dodging the team wanting interpretations. Berry was biting calls. Asleep at 5 am. Etc And then high perf of WR doenst seem to have structures in place to get answers in a time to apply into training. He’s addressing the elephant in room. Sayjng things we all thinking. Sick of talking on Monday about the fuckimg ref instead game.
Am I the only person who thinks Rassie’s video was essentially “The Lions put pressure on the refs and TMO specifically prior to the first test, by accusing World Rugby of not having a contingency plan, so I’ll put pressure on by pointing out inaccuracies prior to the second test” and actually has nothing to do with the content of the video really? IMO the lions coaches (specifically not Gatland which I believe was tactical) were unnecessarily harsh on the change in TMO considering what the cause was, so that made South Africa do something similar (specifically not the coach who everyone seems to be forgetting is Nienaber)
Spot on. Marius Jonker's voice was crackling throughout the reviews and ended up overcompensating. The assertions made didn't have proof but were baseless attacks on someone's integrity compared to Rassie who came up with evidence.
I dont think it was just that, but the narrative that rassie had just gone mad or was acting childishly was nonsense. Being honest there was about 5 different reasons i think he did it. Specifics of the tests asides, I think he was also finally airing in public an issue many,many top coaches have had for years with the standard and consistency of refing. If nothing else, I hope WR sit up and take notice (even if Rassie gets the book thrown at him over it)
@David Martin their bias has been outstanding at best. If they had lost due to bad officiating in the 1st test you wouldn't have never heard the end of it. To this day they still whinge about Tana Umaga in 05 and Schalk Burger is 09.
One thing that doesn't really get mentioned, is that Rassie mentions that he was told in the leadup to the 1st test, that the refs would be looking to penalise certain things. Collapsing and slowing down ball from rucks as an example. He must have then told his guys not to do that, even though it would have been something that they would have liked to have done to slow down the Lions ball. To see clear examples of that not penalised so soon after that, was probably a contributing factor to releasing the video.
What a great episode! Some awesome insights from Jerry and the panel. It was interesting hearing his thoughts on Rassie and Jacques. That being said, I'm backing the Boks to close out the series. Springboks by 5!
Hask at 27:11 makes a bloody good point. I've been saying this. They(refs) need to be more accountable. I really feel "sorry" is not good enough I'm afraid. I feel exactly the same, it now puts so much spotlight on World Rugby to either get these refs paid more? But definitely be more accountable. Grade them I suppose? I think the the refs should do more what Rassie did in terms of spending hours with footage. Like I don't know how many hours these refs spend on daily basis making them relevant week in week out. I feel the players, coaches are eating, sleeping, playing rugby constantly and that transpires onto the field of play come the weekend. Are refs doing the same? If not, then they won't be able to translate that work (if they even do any) onto the pitch, in terms of being constantly tuned into the game to make critical decisions consistently. And not only the crucial decisions but just general refereeing decisions.
The refs get these types of videos off coaches every week, it is not anything new that Rassie did. I don't know why people don't understand that the issue is he went public and brought the game into disrepute. People are acting like Rassie is the first coach to send the referee a review of the game!
@@raydenwins1071 No, sir. I think the biggest issue was that he(Rassie) went to the ref on Sunday off camera to ask if he could send footage of the game to be answered which seemed to not be a problem initially (which I can imagine should always be the case based on what you're telling me) so what seemed initially possible in terms of getting his(ref) interpretation and understanding of the refereeing decisions (all this done off camera and through correct respective World Rugby channels) to getting an answer back only on Wednesday morning leaving Rassie with only one session left to practise and correct certain things based on the feedback given, I think might have pissed Rassie off a bit.. And rightly so. I mean if you made mistakes then you want to know what they were to fix them asap as players and coaches especially if you're playing in 7 day's time again. Just makes sense. So if you watch the famous video back that was the bases of the criticism and secondary some of the ref calls which were some bloody bad ones mind you! 8 seconds to 28 seconds advantage given. Mind blowing. The second problem was that I think World Rugby and the ref spoke about 6 Nations "and that's how we do it in the 6 Nations" that got to Rassie a little bit and understandable so. This is the Springboks vs B&I Lions and it comes once every 12 years, my friend. It's not the 6 Nations. And thirdly, Rassie had won a: Rugby Championship(which includes a win in NZ), a World Cup and looks to be on the brink of winning a very good B&I Lions tour given the circumstances, too in less than 4 years. I'm afraid someone needs to tell refs and World Rugby sorry is not good enough. And I think if he wins the series come Saturday, this would be just another stroke of genius by Rassie Erasmus. 🇿🇦
So we expect the refs to be perfect? Players aren’t, coaches aren’t? I hardly think the threat of a public pile-on instigated by coaches is likely to improve officiating.
@@GH-qp6dn I think sort out the feedback immediately and give constructive feedback as a ref. Take accountability then you should have a leg to stand on. As a ref and as WR. I think the difference between blowing 8 sec Bok advantage to 28 sec to that of the Lions is a bit careless and deliberate if you ask me. I can't see any other explanation. And if anyone can't see that then I'm afraid it's not a conversation anymore it becomes an argument. Which I wil not be doing.
Great discussion lads. As a saffa regarding the Rassie video - we are all well aware some calls are 50/50 and most everyone is okay with even 60/40 calls (ocasionally) but I think Rassies desperation was that the 1st test may have been beyond that. Boks definitely not blameless but the gripe is more about fairness than calls missed maybe
If you need to check studs and slow the game as you’re blowing, then you should leave the field no replacement, players will then ensure their kit is fit for purpose. Clever move to extend the 1st half as last 20 became manageable.
I’m so glad we had Russell for the final game. If we had of started Farrell or Biggar it would’ve been another spanking like in game 2. His quick thinking is unmatched. How many times did he flip a quick pass that got us 5-10extra metres out of absolutely nothing.
Awesome show Ellis! The adaptation to empty stadiums now is that wafer that gives Rassie mitigating circumstances with his video. In a normal 2019 game the crowds would have kept the ref in check with bad calls. We miss that! Five or six bad calls happens in any game and normally the game goes on after that, but with no crowds no-one on field knows the sentiment of those that watches the game. Rassies video might be a good idea if we are going to watch footy in empty stadiums.
For every 26 incidents one way there is 26 the other. The game will be sterile if you ping everything. I think a change to jackle law has got to change. I think a step over is needed. Making it easier to clear out. Off feet and offside actually needs to be clearer.
I've watched GBR for years and the questions Alex has asked about the laws and ref chat is utterly spot on. Communication, referring and coaching needs to be sorted to let the game flow.
Haskels point on Rassie pointing out things in his words "you have to do" such as shifting a player by the legs i think Rassie and anybody who plays rugby agrees on that its a stupid Law. But Rassie's Point he made in the video is that the Ref told them Prior to the game that he will be watching for that and then in game never even mentions it. The Video was his frustration with the Refs communication to them Before, During and after the test.
I'm really giggling about everyone havin a gripe with Kolbe "only" getting a yellow. When the week before Kolbe was played in the air and didn't even get a penalty... In fact... The Springboks had to defend a line out. Of course Rassie got annoyed. You can't have it both ways. The Lions really got away with that one and then next week you get a penalty and a yellow card for a not all too dissimilar offence. Also the scrummaging thing Tom Curry. The penalty went against the Boks there and our prop got injured in that same scrum. Of course Rassie was annoyed! You are glossing over some serious issues and Inconsistencies that Rassie was pointing out in the first place. The British fury over Kolbe "only" getting yellow, strangely, even reinforces Rassie's point, but at the same time vindicates him too. The other funny thing about it all is that Connor Murray hit the ground FOOT FIRST, then his hand, then his head. Where Klobe was pulled out of the air by Allie Price and landed straight on his back, and there was 0 sanction. So even when the sanction was applied in the second test, the Boks ended up on the wrong end of the inconsistencies.
Rassie showed quite a few clips of inconsistent calls. Where 1 team was penalized for an offense, and the other was not. Also the boks penalty advantage lasting 8 seconds, and the lions 24. The way he listened to one captain and brushed the other away. The way he allowed the lions to do things he told the boks pre game he wouldn't allow. You gents missed this. The problem was not the calls, it was the inconsistency between how he blew against 1 team vs the other. It would have been moot if the ref had made the same mistake to the disadvantage of both teams.
If South Africa didn't rest every 30 seconds the score would have been 50 - 0 to the Lions. Hopefully the french ref keeps a normal tempo this week and SA will be gassed.
HI Guys love your show , James is pure class and so funny , one thing I do find Interesting how Sir Clive Woodward was allowed to do a presentation to the press back in 2005 and there was no uproar ? I think he set the precedence for this sort of thing, and if Rassie does get punished then there lies the essence of the problem , Clive got away with it and Rassie was penalized.
Rassie wants consistency with teams. SA have this bully boy image and as result Rassie feels that SA gets hard done by because they are physical. They hence don't get the rub of the green.
At last rugby is played in your head south Africa have played vthis way since year dot ... you just play for parity and make sure you make them big lumps are run around until they are sucking lumps of air new Zealand beat them often and use width of pitch
"Going home and feeling bad that you made a colossal screw up of a game with even one card or one penalty call" is just not enough. Respect the refs on the field and off, but please can we somehow remove this sense of invincibility that they have been given from world rugby.
I would hate us to do that, whether there are 1 or 100 decisions that go against us. Rassie has set a terrible example to young players all round the world, it’s now open season on officials.
A rare delight for them to actually be talking about rugby for once. Really interesting episode and it's just nice not to have to hear any more of Bob Skinstad on a bloody rugby podcast atm. The game has become too complicated and full of quirky laws. It needs to be simplified with more tempo. As for the game, completely agree with Genge. The Lions just need to move that Springbok pack around a bit more and stress them.
Nick Berry consciously cheated in the 2nd half, Rassie had to highlight that fact, in fact Rassie did so diplomatically. Berry and a good number of Aussie refs are rotten. ( not to mention their cricket team)
The truth of the matter is Rassie made some good points but Gats could make an hour long video too, as could any coach in any game. Therefore Rassie has looked stupid
Imagine Gatland making a video showing another 26 ref errors favouring Boks. Club ref would make less errors. This was necessary as all coaches will benefit. The authorities are the problem. The old farts Will Carling spoke about.
Well they make these types of presentations to refs week in, week out to try understand the game and what the players did wrong. This is one of the first times a coaching staff member made it "public".
Rassie asked for feedback on the Sunday, he was told the guy was sleeping, he didn't get any answers until the Tuesday. That and inconsistency is the beef. Nothing stupid about that.
Looked stupid and his team crushed the lions. I'm happy to look stupid and destroy you on the field. 3 world cups to the boks... how many between all the lions nations??
At some point it felt like the podcast was trying to milk the decision that rassie made was in fact wrong which it isn't wrong or right its both so we can keep looking for a definitive answer as much as i loved that kolbe didnt get a red which could've lost us the game i have to say that was red for me so the argument about the 4 greatest mind is kinda invalid i think kolbe should've went off i even shouted how much of an idiot he was at that point so i think scrutiny is justified about referees as long as its constructive from both coach and world rugby
Interesting how Jerry says he is happy with experiences with the refs in the England since moving there right …. So maybe the issue again is the NH vs. SH refs again …. I like Berry and that he is the best in Australia..sadly … but SA andNZ refs are stand outs by far in SH ….. so maybe in benefit of the refs and their development etc this is BLOODY GOOD REASON to have a standardised and unified season around the world AND the stupid bloody self centred UK and French clubs have too. Much power over World Rugby !!!!!! For the sake of the refs they possibly also need a time for off season to get shit done and developed so to speak. Yes I’m SA and yes I support Rassie in what he did and hope WR get a big bloody wake up call … and the refs too …. But agree also hopefully this needs to happen once only and stuff gets done after this !!!
24 mins. Jerry nails it. Rassie had issues with the ref not doing his job OFF the field. Burning calls. sleeping at 5pm etc. And no structures it seems at WR to make the ref answerable at a time thats realistic for teams to apply interpretations. Refs are too protected. That why you have shitty attitudes like Berry .
I feel like this debate is just dancing around the simple fact that it was poor inconsistent, confusing referreeing. Nothing more, nothing less. As you said, maggie mcgeechan, warbuton and o'gara were all confused by the decisions and they are the brightest pundits around atm. If they are confused, of course everyone else are confused. The whistle went every 2 minutes and serveral halfs of rugby latest over 60 minutes which is ridiculous
Lions have been worse than average during tests .. gats decided to have them play same 10 man rugby like bokks kicking leather off ball but when lions have a back 3that was worse than useless that couldn’t catch a ball the bokks capitalised.. 1st test win was a fluke against undercooked bokks which was proved in 2nd test when bokks didn’t runout of steam 2nd half and totally outmuscled and dominate lions also exposing just how weak lions are at 12 / 13 channel which is unusual for lions considering how strong the lions have historically been at centre when considering the greats that have graced the 12/13 shirt for lions… I mean Elliot daly 1st test starting at 13 !!! Jesus wept and no surprise he got smashed in attack and defence and looked massively out of his depth proving he is 100% not a utility player to cover all positions in he backs at this level… at least some Changes made for 3rd test especially 2 in the back 3 but should have been more… ffs gats get those lions play some rugby which changes in backs does at least suggest that.. if they don’t play . .? Lions will loose
Frustrating how conversational focus is 90% on the pros and cons of Rassie's video, as well as the minutiae of how he executed his argument, rather than the clear details of what led to it. 1) WG voiced distrust for the TMO. 2) In the test following, blatantly incorrect TMO calls went against the Boks - most obvious was Hamish Watson's tip-tackle which didn't get a card and yet which the world agreed should get a card 100 times out of 100 Can you blame Rassie for feeling paranoid that there was maybe a conspiracy against his team?
The mentality of SA rugby is very different to any other country. In SA winning comes first, rugby comes second. Rassie doesn’t mind dragging the game through the mud, to gain an advantage. He doesn’t mind playing percentages and pragmatic, boring rugby. He doesn’t mind time wasting - look how little the ball was in play during the last test. With the player pool at his disposal, it’s criminal to play the way he does. South Africa is a desperate place to live at the moment, maybe they need a victory more than the B&IL. In the NH, rugby standards are installed into players from a young age. Looking at the actions of Rassie, he’s setting a terrible example.
Jerry - Appreciate your admiration for Erasmus but this does not explain his 60+ minute tirade towards the Ref`s. He has dragged Rugby back to the to the dark ages. SA are simply boring to watch and Erasmus should be cited for bringing the game into disrepute.
Proudly flying my Munster flag for Flannery, but genuinely one of the best GBR pods to date.
Happy to hear I'm not the only Lions supporter who can see Rassies perspective. He's one of the smartest minds in the game, and whether you think he deserves the book thrown at him or whether his actions were justifiable, the man put the thought into it and it might end up bettering the game overall in time.
Massive weekend to come.
Being a dick head on Twitter isn’t helping the game. There was nothing remotely altruistic about his video, it was self serving in the extreme.
There were some good points made by Alex Goode on house of Rugby. Publicly scrutinizing the refs isn't going to attract many people to ref in the future. He could have sent the video to world rugby, he didn't need to make it public.
@@dbjmk8083 How dare you mention HoR on this channel!?! 😂
TBF though Rassie did, those style videos are literally what they send to the Refs/WR to get feedback on.
I respect the point but feel its overblown. Refs get far worse abuse in soccer and there are still refs who want to do it.
The no public criticism of refs thing means that if the broader systems are failing, or individual refs are, then that can't even be discussed? The law that you can't publicly criticise refs has good intentions. But if that rule prevents the standard of refs improving, or allows WR to ignore the broader systemic issues then that has to be addressed too.
I also don't buy into the notion that if reasonable criticism suddenly were allowed, the game would just become soccer overnight. So long as the critiques are reasonable, measured, and respectful it won't change the game.
@@Doradexplora lmao, should have thought about that, could you talk about the beef for a moment? Not sure what happened. I agree it won't descend into football over night, the gentleman culture is too strong but the degeneration could start with a single moment and so it should be condemned.
@@dgmclar World cup winning coach 👏
I think a lot of people are focusing on the 26 things Rassie pointed out. The point they are missing is that the Boks had a meeting with Berry the week of the game and he said "if you do these things like come in from the side, or rip the ball when there is a knee down" I will penalize you. They followed his direction but then the Lions did the same thing and were not penalized. That's what pissed off Rassie. He refereed the Boks differently to the Lions.
@David Martin Bollocks
Exceptional episode. Really educational. The past player, the coach, the current player and the intellectual host. A fantastic mix.
I completely enjoined this one, guys. From SA.
Best episode yet, real honesty and insight into the game. Jerry Flannery's thoughts are spot on.
Great show, finally non biased commentary from a NH group. Also, nice insight into Rassie and Jacques from someone in the know.
South African here. Brilliant show guys. Love the passion👍🏼✌🇿🇦
Enthralling real rugby talk. Hope the Boks win but it is all to play for. Great great episode!
Finally, a show with some unbiased commentary. Great show and appreciate the other side perspective view points.
"its organized chaos between 4 white lines" best discription of rugby i heard in a while!
Funny how rugby is getting more complicated year after year but still have only one ref in charge. You have 3 other refs more or less twiddling their thumbs and not used as they could be.
I disagree. I think he was arguing that his team wasn't getting the respect ot was entitled to, and was suffering bad decisions due to unconscious bias. But that's just me.
Great show, what insight into Rassie. May the best team win the 3rd test. Go Bokke.
Absolutely fascinating! Just really interesting chat. Thank you gentlemen.
Totally with Haskell, referees should have a burden of performance just like everyone else. You can't be reprieved all the time when your officiating influences results.
Love the Podcast but listening to a lot of the British and Irish commentary on the B&I Lions tour in the lead up to the 3rd test and they seem to be trying paint a picture of a Boks side constantly slowing things down and not wanting to play rugby (despite us having scored 3 tries to their 1, so far).
With that in mind let's not forget the Lions Tour of '97, which is touted as one of the great Lions achievements in modern times. After losing the first test we fielded an attack minded team in the second test with Henry Honiball at 10, who was a great attacker but a kak kicker. We scored 3 tries to zip, missed all our kicks at and lost the game with 15 pts to 5 pens and drop goal. And the series finished with the Boks scoring 9 tries to the Lions 3!
Bring on Sat can't bloody wait! I am confident, but I know there is not much in it. Hope it is a hell of a game of rugby, but I will happily take a slug/kick fest and a one point win and leave the razzle dazzle to the AB's and the Fijians!
Love it when genge is on
Really enjoyable interview. Thanks gents.
Jerry impressed with your knowledge of the game - especially when it comes to player safety - some injuries can be life changing
Great discussion
Genge sounding every bit the captain with that tactical analysis and solution to a boc sized problem. I agree too that either go big or go home, get something left field going like putting smith in there, with simmons on the bench they have a similar axis to the smith dommers..Plus if you’re looking for get the ball moving and attacking soft shoulders, how better to do it than in conventional attacking and pace… should be a great game.
If only Gats had picked Marcus Smith, Danny Care and Donners in the original touring squad. Now that's a ready made spine of a team to build around!
Try head butt the world head butting champions was his take. Never ends well for the other side.
Very enjoyable and interesting conversation - subscribed.
Quins this season proved that rugby can be played with a more amatuer spirit of joy and being player led while making it at the top. I hope it becomes the new blueprint for the game
How to beat the Box? For a start, much deeper back line to spoil the rush defence, then set moves, chips behind out of line defenders? , chips to wings, back row inside passing - innovative style. Fin Russell or Smith? But I agree with all the presenters, it’s a hard hard ask….
Really enjoyed this cast the best online come on the Lions GRAWL those Springboks
that was a great podcast guys. thanks.
Jerry's being very generous about Rassie's motivations. He made the video for two reasons:
1. To divert the attention of the South African rugby press and public from the loss
2. To place pressure on the officials ahead of the second test.
Cloak and daggers.
Finally someone talking about it, appreciate the in depth analysis. It was all done because springboks weren't on par and it managed to get them a decider. Hopefully we get a more old school style of officiating from this so that rugby actually wins not just individuals within the game with clout. Good honesty from Jerry
People are missing the pojnt and Erasmus explained. He has issues with the ref dodging the team wanting interpretations. Berry was biting calls. Asleep at 5 am. Etc And then high perf of WR doenst seem to have structures in place to get answers in a time to apply into training. He’s addressing the elephant in room. Sayjng things we all thinking. Sick of talking on Monday about the fuckimg ref instead game.
Out of all the chat shows thsi week. Jerry nailed it. You can tell he really knows Rassie and Jaques. Spot on
Interesting show. I wondered with the discussion about the flanker moving onto the prop: The guys say its cool, but Ox was hurt by it.
Another great podcast. Thanks 🙏🏽
Love it fellas, fantastic interviews 👍 lack of umbro on Mr payne and hask, come on lads keep the classics going 😉
Am I the only person who thinks Rassie’s video was essentially “The Lions put pressure on the refs and TMO specifically prior to the first test, by accusing World Rugby of not having a contingency plan, so I’ll put pressure on by pointing out inaccuracies prior to the second test” and actually has nothing to do with the content of the video really? IMO the lions coaches (specifically not Gatland which I believe was tactical) were unnecessarily harsh on the change in TMO considering what the cause was, so that made South Africa do something similar (specifically not the coach who everyone seems to be forgetting is Nienaber)
Spot on. Marius Jonker's voice was crackling throughout the reviews and ended up overcompensating. The assertions made didn't have proof but were baseless attacks on someone's integrity compared to Rassie who came up with evidence.
I dont think it was just that, but the narrative that rassie had just gone mad or was acting childishly was nonsense. Being honest there was about 5 different reasons i think he did it.
Specifics of the tests asides, I think he was also finally airing in public an issue many,many top coaches have had for years with the standard and consistency of refing. If nothing else, I hope WR sit up and take notice (even if Rassie gets the book thrown at him over it)
@David Martin their bias has been outstanding at best. If they had lost due to bad officiating in the 1st test you wouldn't have never heard the end of it. To this day they still whinge about Tana Umaga in 05 and Schalk Burger is 09.
One thing that doesn't really get mentioned, is that Rassie mentions that he was told in the leadup to the 1st test, that the refs would be looking to penalise certain things. Collapsing and slowing down ball from rucks as an example. He must have then told his guys not to do that, even though it would have been something that they would have liked to have done to slow down the Lions ball. To see clear examples of that not penalised so soon after that, was probably a contributing factor to releasing the video.
What a great episode! Some awesome insights from Jerry and the panel. It was interesting hearing his thoughts on Rassie and Jacques. That being said, I'm backing the Boks to close out the series. Springboks by 5!
Beast was right .this guy needs to be sorted out by the Bokke ..All big talk ...Must take him to loftus or Ellis park
Hask at 27:11 makes a bloody good point. I've been saying this. They(refs) need to be more accountable. I really feel "sorry" is not good enough I'm afraid.
I feel exactly the same, it now puts so much spotlight on World Rugby to either get these refs paid more? But definitely be more accountable. Grade them I suppose? I think the the refs should do more what Rassie did in terms of spending hours with footage. Like I don't know how many hours these refs spend on daily basis making them relevant week in week out.
I feel the players, coaches are eating, sleeping, playing rugby constantly and that transpires onto the field of play come the weekend. Are refs doing the same? If not, then they won't be able to translate that work (if they even do any) onto the pitch, in terms of being constantly tuned into the game to make critical decisions consistently. And not only the crucial decisions but just general refereeing decisions.
@David Martin lol...we wouldn't want to think that but we shouldn't be naive to think that it's not possible.
The refs get these types of videos off coaches every week, it is not anything new that Rassie did. I don't know why people don't understand that the issue is he went public and brought the game into disrepute. People are acting like Rassie is the first coach to send the referee a review of the game!
@@raydenwins1071 No, sir. I think the biggest issue was that he(Rassie) went to the ref on Sunday off camera to ask if he could send footage of the game to be answered which seemed to not be a problem initially (which I can imagine should always be the case based on what you're telling me) so what seemed initially possible in terms of getting his(ref) interpretation and understanding of the refereeing decisions (all this done off camera and through correct respective World Rugby channels) to getting an answer back only on Wednesday morning leaving Rassie with only one session left to practise and correct certain things based on the feedback given, I think might have pissed Rassie off a bit.. And rightly so. I mean if you made mistakes then you want to know what they were to fix them asap as players and coaches especially if you're playing in 7 day's time again. Just makes sense. So if you watch the famous video back that was the bases of the criticism and secondary some of the ref calls which were some bloody bad ones mind you!
8 seconds to 28 seconds advantage given. Mind blowing.
The second problem was that I think World Rugby and the ref spoke about 6 Nations "and that's how we do it in the 6 Nations" that got to Rassie a little bit and understandable so. This is the Springboks vs B&I Lions and it comes once every 12 years, my friend. It's not the 6 Nations.
And thirdly, Rassie had won a:
Rugby Championship(which includes a win in NZ), a World Cup and looks to be on the brink of winning a very good B&I Lions tour given the circumstances, too in less than 4 years.
I'm afraid someone needs to tell refs and World Rugby sorry is not good enough. And I think if he wins the series come Saturday, this would be just another stroke of genius by Rassie Erasmus.
🇿🇦
So we expect the refs to be perfect? Players aren’t, coaches aren’t? I hardly think the threat of a public pile-on instigated by coaches is likely to improve officiating.
@@GH-qp6dn I think sort out the feedback immediately and give constructive feedback as a ref. Take accountability then you should have a leg to stand on. As a ref and as WR. I think the difference between blowing 8 sec Bok advantage to 28 sec to that of the Lions is a bit careless and deliberate if you ask me. I can't see any other explanation.
And if anyone can't see that then I'm afraid it's not a conversation anymore it becomes an argument. Which I wil not be doing.
Great discussion lads. As a saffa regarding the Rassie video - we are all well aware some calls are 50/50 and most everyone is okay with even 60/40 calls (ocasionally) but I think Rassies desperation was that the 1st test may have been beyond that. Boks definitely not blameless but the gripe is more about fairness than calls missed maybe
If you need to check studs and slow the game as you’re blowing, then you should leave the field no replacement, players will then ensure their kit is fit for purpose. Clever move to extend the 1st half as last 20 became manageable.
Looked like Ellis nearly threw up in his mouth when Hask came out with the stardust comment 😂
Good Craic as usual, roll on Saturday….C,mon Lions, good show boys
Add to play book, the tried/tested drop goals? Put 3-4 over in first half?
I’m so glad we had Russell for the final game. If we had of started Farrell or Biggar it would’ve been another spanking like in game 2. His quick thinking is unmatched. How many times did he flip a quick pass that got us 5-10extra metres out of absolutely nothing.
... and yet he barely got a mention pre-match before the side was picked. Smith this, Smith that.
Great episode
Everyone has a plan (Lions) untill you get hit in the face - Mike Tyson...🇿🇦💪
Genge is massive!
I thought blue was Alex Payne’s colour...turns out it’s black!!!
Awesome show Ellis! The adaptation to empty stadiums now is that wafer that gives Rassie mitigating circumstances with his video. In a normal 2019 game the crowds would have kept the ref in check with bad calls. We miss that! Five or six bad calls happens in any game and normally the game goes on after that, but with no crowds no-one on field knows the sentiment of those that watches the game. Rassies video might be a good idea if we are going to watch footy in empty stadiums.
I absolutely love Jerry
Endless forensic ref analysis is a “hard listen” but fly Ellis out on the next flight! Red card or hero in that 3rd test. 😂
Love listening to Fla.
For every 26 incidents one way there is 26 the other. The game will be sterile if you ping everything.
I think a change to jackle law has got to change. I think a step over is needed. Making it easier to clear out. Off feet and offside actually needs to be clearer.
Marcus Smith should start? How drunk is Flannery?
I've watched GBR for years and the questions Alex has asked about the laws and ref chat is utterly spot on. Communication, referring and coaching needs to be sorted to let the game flow.
Qi
I wonder if Rassie and Shaun Edwards could ever gel and form a coaching team. What if they could be the next lions coaches?
That would be fascinating
Wouldn’t want him, he’s an absolute disgrace and does not respect the game.
@@TheDandob1982 🤡
totally agree with James on refs
Love Jerry
Haskels point on Rassie pointing out things in his words "you have to do" such as shifting a player by the legs i think Rassie and anybody who plays rugby agrees on that its a stupid Law. But Rassie's Point he made in the video is that the Ref told them Prior to the game that he will be watching for that and then in game never even mentions it. The Video was his frustration with the Refs communication to them Before, During and after the test.
Would have been good to have Genge on the tour.
Why have you got a bust of Bobby Ewing in the background, we’re not in the shower this tour is for real!
I'm really giggling about everyone havin a gripe with Kolbe "only" getting a yellow. When the week before Kolbe was played in the air and didn't even get a penalty... In fact... The Springboks had to defend a line out. Of course Rassie got annoyed.
You can't have it both ways. The Lions really got away with that one and then next week you get a penalty and a yellow card for a not all too dissimilar offence.
Also the scrummaging thing Tom Curry. The penalty went against the Boks there and our prop got injured in that same scrum. Of course Rassie was annoyed!
You are glossing over some serious issues and Inconsistencies that Rassie was pointing out in the first place.
The British fury over Kolbe "only" getting yellow, strangely, even reinforces Rassie's point, but at the same time vindicates him too.
The other funny thing about it all is that Connor Murray hit the ground FOOT FIRST, then his hand, then his head. Where Klobe was pulled out of the air by Allie Price and landed straight on his back, and there was 0 sanction. So even when the sanction was applied in the second test, the Boks ended up on the wrong end of the inconsistencies.
Rassie showed quite a few clips of inconsistent calls. Where 1 team was penalized for an offense, and the other was not. Also the boks penalty advantage lasting 8 seconds, and the lions 24. The way he listened to one captain and brushed the other away. The way he allowed the lions to do things he told the boks pre game he wouldn't allow. You gents missed this. The problem was not the calls, it was the inconsistency between how he blew against 1 team vs the other. It would have been moot if the ref had made the same mistake to the disadvantage of both teams.
Hey Hask, if neither team had missed a kick at goal, the score would have ended 32-12.
If South Africa didn't rest every 30 seconds the score would have been 50 - 0 to the Lions. Hopefully the french ref keeps a normal tempo this week and SA will be gassed.
HI Guys love your show , James is pure class and so funny , one thing I do find Interesting how Sir Clive Woodward was allowed to do a presentation to the press back in 2005 and there was no uproar ? I think he set the precedence for this sort of thing, and if Rassie does get punished then there lies the essence of the problem , Clive got away with it and Rassie was penalized.
Rassie wants consistency with teams. SA have this bully boy image and as result Rassie feels that SA gets hard done by because they are physical. They hence don't get the rub of the green.
At last rugby is played in your head south Africa have played vthis way since year dot ... you just play for parity and make sure you make them big lumps are run around until they are sucking lumps of air new Zealand beat them often and use width of pitch
"Going home and feeling bad that you made a colossal screw up of a game with even one card or one penalty call" is just not enough. Respect the refs on the field and off, but please can we somehow remove this sense of invincibility that they have been given from world rugby.
Would love to see the BIL do a video showing 26 unfair calls against them from the second test, I doubt they’d get anywhere near 26. Point made
I would hate us to do that, whether there are 1 or 100 decisions that go against us. Rassie has set a terrible example to young players all round the world, it’s now open season on officials.
There are too many laws. Simplify the game
After what Jerry and the gang achieved international teams will be coming for him got loota time for him
A rare delight for them to actually be talking about rugby for once. Really interesting episode and it's just nice not to have to hear any more of Bob Skinstad on a bloody rugby podcast atm. The game has become too complicated and full of quirky laws. It needs to be simplified with more tempo. As for the game, completely agree with Genge. The Lions just need to move that Springbok pack around a bit more and stress them.
Pinkapple. Club refs make less mistakes. Saffers have always had to be satisfied with 2nd place
Nick Berry consciously cheated in the 2nd half, Rassie had to highlight that fact, in fact Rassie did so diplomatically. Berry and a good number of Aussie refs are rotten. ( not to mention their cricket team)
What a disgusting slur to make.
The truth of the matter is Rassie made some good points but Gats could make an hour long video too, as could any coach in any game. Therefore Rassie has looked stupid
Nope it's not his fault they chose not to make their own videos, Clive Woodward made his video after losing to the All Blacks.
Imagine Gatland making a video showing another 26 ref errors favouring Boks. Club ref would make less errors. This was necessary as all coaches will benefit. The authorities are the problem. The old farts Will Carling spoke about.
Well they make these types of presentations to refs week in, week out to try understand the game and what the players did wrong. This is one of the first times a coaching staff member made it "public".
Rassie asked for feedback on the Sunday, he was told the guy was sleeping, he didn't get any answers until the Tuesday. That and inconsistency is the beef. Nothing stupid about that.
Looked stupid and his team crushed the lions. I'm happy to look stupid and destroy you on the field. 3 world cups to the boks... how many between all the lions nations??
At some point it felt like the podcast was trying to milk the decision that rassie made was in fact wrong which it isn't wrong or right its both so we can keep looking for a definitive answer as much as i loved that kolbe didnt get a red which could've lost us the game i have to say that was red for me so the argument about the 4 greatest mind is kinda invalid i think kolbe should've went off i even shouted how much of an idiot he was at that point so i think scrutiny is justified about referees as long as its constructive from both coach and world rugby
Interesting how Jerry says he is happy with experiences with the refs in the England since moving there right …. So maybe the issue again is the NH vs. SH refs again …. I like Berry and that he is the best in Australia..sadly … but SA andNZ refs are stand outs by far in SH ….. so maybe in benefit of the refs and their development etc this is BLOODY GOOD REASON to have a standardised and unified season around the world AND the stupid bloody self centred UK and French clubs have too. Much power over World Rugby !!!!!! For the sake of the refs they possibly also need a time for off season to get shit done and developed so to speak. Yes I’m SA and yes I support Rassie in what he did and hope WR get a big bloody wake up call … and the refs too …. But agree also hopefully this needs to happen once only and stuff gets done after this !!!
Jeremy guscott got it right. Boks by 4
24 mins. Jerry nails it. Rassie had issues with the ref not doing his job OFF the field. Burning calls. sleeping at 5pm etc. And no structures it seems at WR to make the ref answerable at a time thats realistic for teams to apply interpretations. Refs are too protected. That why you have shitty attitudes like Berry .
I feel like this debate is just dancing around the simple fact that it was poor inconsistent, confusing referreeing. Nothing more, nothing less.
As you said, maggie mcgeechan, warbuton and o'gara were all confused by the decisions and they are the brightest pundits around atm. If they are confused, of course everyone else are confused. The whistle went every 2 minutes and serveral halfs of rugby latest over 60 minutes which is ridiculous
No one mentioned the time wasting by SA players feigning injury and deliberately slowing down play.
owen took 10 years to kick his penalty at the end of the first test, please just dont.
Yup and crushed the lions by 18 points. First test was lost by 5. With two tries pulled back. One mall try by the lions in two tests...
Lions have been worse than average during tests .. gats decided to have them play same 10 man rugby like bokks kicking leather off ball but when lions have a back 3that was worse than useless that couldn’t catch a ball the bokks capitalised.. 1st test win was a fluke against undercooked bokks which was proved in 2nd test when bokks didn’t runout of steam 2nd half and totally outmuscled and dominate lions also exposing just how weak lions are at 12 / 13 channel which is unusual for lions considering how strong the lions have historically been at centre when considering the greats that have graced the 12/13 shirt for lions… I mean Elliot daly 1st test starting at 13 !!! Jesus wept and no surprise he got smashed in attack and defence and looked massively out of his depth proving he is 100% not a utility player to cover all positions in he backs at this level… at least some Changes made for 3rd test especially 2 in the back 3 but should have been more… ffs gats get those lions play some rugby which changes in backs does at least suggest that.. if they don’t play . .? Lions will loose
Frustrating how conversational focus is 90% on the pros and cons of Rassie's video, as well as the minutiae of how he executed his argument, rather than the clear details of what led to it.
1) WG voiced distrust for the TMO.
2) In the test following, blatantly incorrect TMO calls went against the Boks - most obvious was Hamish Watson's tip-tackle which didn't get a card and yet which the world agreed should get a card 100 times out of 100
Can you blame Rassie for feeling paranoid that there was maybe a conspiracy against his team?
Defending the indefensible again.
The mentality of SA rugby is very different to any other country. In SA winning comes first, rugby comes second. Rassie doesn’t mind dragging the game through the mud, to gain an advantage. He doesn’t mind playing percentages and pragmatic, boring rugby. He doesn’t mind time wasting - look how little the ball was in play during the last test. With the player pool at his disposal, it’s criminal to play the way he does. South Africa is a desperate place to live at the moment, maybe they need a victory more than the B&IL. In the NH, rugby standards are installed into players from a young age. Looking at the actions of Rassie, he’s setting a terrible example.
Alex just pushes the same question over and over until he gets the answer he wants...
without Faf the boks are fucked
He’s one boring get is Jerry
Genge is such a fake but Flannery is a good bloke and very insightful.
Why is he a fake? Interested
Fake? Don't day things just fort likes, it's embarrassing!
@@paulbeavan220 don't write comments with incorrect words and poor spelling. Its embarrassing
What do you mean by a fake??
That's right, hide behind somebody's spell check! Another keyboard warrior hey? Wimp 👍
Jerry - Appreciate your admiration for Erasmus but this does not explain his 60+ minute tirade towards the Ref`s. He has dragged Rugby back to the to the dark ages. SA are simply boring to watch and Erasmus should be cited for bringing the game into disrepute.