There is a parable in Japan about the three unifiers that perfectly explains Tokugawa’s(Toganaga) disposition: -When asked how to make a caged bird sing, Oda Nobunaga (Goroda) answers “if it doesn’t sing I will kill it”. Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Nakamura Hidetoshi) answers “I will make the bird sing”. Tokugawa Ieyasu(Yoshii Toranaga) answers “I will wait for it to sing”.- Also my partner is from Osaka and years ago when she found me reading the novel, she told me they grew up with a children’s saying: - Oda makes the pie, Nakamura bakes the pie and Tokugawa eats the pie - Thank you for this forum. I loved the book, am loving the show and the discussion is awesome. It’s great seeing peoples reaction and joy to the story and characters and is the closest I can get to reliving reading it for the first time. Enjoy the rest of the series!
I highly recommend the shows podcast that's on UA-cam for each episode. The host is one of the writers on the show and they bring in actors, writers, and historians to talk about what went on during the show. Brings a lot of insight to what is shown.
I look forward to these reviews every week. It's great having the comparison of the book. I listened to the audiobook and it's amazing but Steve's recollection is much better than my own. Guess I need to read it a few more dozen times to match Steve. Here's to five more amazing weeks! Thanks Cine Files!
The Best Shogun review channel by far. I’ve watched John for years back with Campea and Shnepp. Love his insight and now with Steve’s knowledge of the book this is a perfect pairing. Keep it up guys 🤙🏼🤙🏼😎
These are wonderful reviews I am so enjoying them. Thank you so much. I live in Japan, have done for 23 years. My family is Japanese.....unbelievably wonderful people. whom I love dearly....and I know 2024 is different from medieval Japan,,,,,but scratch a Japanese person.....underneath is Japanese!! This is such a different culture, from my UK Welsh.....but I love them! God knows how Blackthorn survived! My son, Taiki with the pheasant scenes, was physically sick!! Forgetting his father has eaten natto every morning! for tears!! Once again thank you for the reviews!
Next ep: Blackthorn: To his staff, "Don't kill anyone without asking me first." Later on entire house is overrun by bandits, they all get wiped out bc he wasn't there to give permission to fight back.
I was late to Shogun but I absolutely love it, and have been recommending it to people to watch. I also went back to hear your discussions on the previous episodes, so now that I'm all caught up, I was really looking forward to hearing yours and Steve's thoughts - really thoughtful and thought provoking conversation - keep up the great work 🤙
I'm going to have to go and watch Cinephiles. For no particular reason, I never bothered checking it out even though I follow most other Rocha shows, but I'm really enjoying Morris's takes. Thanks for these reviews.
As someone who loved the book, and also most of Clavell’s Asian Saga, your take on each episode is my favourite of all the breakdown analyses. I enjoy the discussions on the differences and where it adds or takes away from the story. Sorry Steve, I don’t think we are getting the scene that you keep referring to. I think that ship has sailed… pardon the pun.
For me - Toranaga's smirk after he's saved from the earthquake - he's recognizing the irony (or karma/fate) that he was saved by Blackthorne. Remember, he's in his own armed camp, filled with his own troops. And of all the people around him, it's this strange foreigner who saves his life. And Toranaga previously made Blackthorne hatamoto (mostly to protect the Anjin) - again more irony/karma/fate.
He didn't save him alone, there were five other people there. Weird of you to act like Blackthorne did it all on his own instead of seeing it as a team effort. Seems you need to pay closer attention.
@@boxtears Of course I saw it was a few people who jumped down the hillside. But who went first? Who actually found Toranaga? Who cleared Toranaga's throat when he was choking? Who did Toranaga see first after the rescue?
@@bani_niba So you're saying if Blackthorne didn't go after him, his people would've just done nothing? You must have a very low opinion of Japanese people. Shame you missed the point of this show.
Mariko has said I think a few times now “we live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.” She says it with pessimism but I think this show is unraveling how much power there is in the choice of life and death. Look back at all the times a character has been presented with the option to take their own life or that of another. Blackthorne didn’t listen to his captain who took his own life. He was spared by an impatient Kashigi from being boiled alive. Kashigi in turn risked and almost took his own life in helping him save Rodrigues. And on and on. Each character making the choice of life or death and each choice is having a profound influence on how this story is unfolding. There is always that which we have no control over like an earthquake but that does not take away from the power that Mariko laments nor the consequences of that power.
In Japan, more than 200 earthquakes with a seismic intensity of 1 or higher are measured each year. Currently, more than 2,000 "active faults" have been discovered in Japan, but there are also many "active faults" that are hidden underground and do not appear on the surface. In addition, major disasters such as typhoons and heavy rains have occurred elsewhere in Japan, and these have had a great impact on the Japanese people's views on life and death, religion, and culture.
39:47 the relationship between Toranaga and Yabu reminds me of a quote in Kurosawa’s “Hidden Fortress” where two scheming knucklehead peasants are lured into transporting gold and a princess refugee by a general playing on their greed and treachery. When General Makabe is asked how long they can rely on the rapacious pair, he answers: - We can rely on their greed-
I've been enjoying these reviews as all Outlaw content via podcast, but Steve is nearly silent in this episode. Please keep in mind for future episodes.
I absolutely can't imagine they would cut "that scene" out of the show. I am fully expecting it to be next episode. I think including it before the Gardener scene would have been premature as I don't think Blackthorne was as yet at a point in his journey as to make it fully believable. They HAVE to include it, right? Somebody convince me! But as close as the show has been to the book and as integral as that scene is and how much it would bridge the coldness that now lies between Blackthorne and Mariko who still sees him as a barbarian in her hidden heart, I can't see the scene being skipped. I just can't. My theory is that its happening and that this is the reason the showrunners delayed Blackthorne's learning of Japanese. In the book Blackthorne's reaction to the language ultimatum stretched credulity a little for me as clearly he was a bit of a polygot and he'd have learned Japanese to even the most stringent definition of satisfactory in 6 months. This show's Blackthorne would have a more believable reason to be concerned that he wouldn't learn enough in time and thus be justly afraid for the fate of the villagers.
Jinsai killing the lord reminds me of Jaime Lannister (got) killing his lord. Both, we’re for the “greater good”. And both are viewed as a “king slayer”. Great writing
One thing I feel is under commented on for this ep is just how funny it was. All of Fuji’s comments and disgust & the whole dinner was hilarious… until… it really, really, wasn’t…
⁉️Y'all mentioned the book provides further detailed exposition from a character's inner thoughts to its readers, whereas, this was provided by the great Orson Welles... Do you think adding a verbal narrator would add or detract to this current iteration of Shogun , what sayyou? Thx.. 🤔👍❕️
Sadly it's quite embarassing how many American reviewers show their ignorance about history, language and cuture of for them foreign countries. I think that's the core problem the whole world has with Americans.
The main source of friction in the relationship between Mariko and Buntaro is that she became a member of a crazy foreign cult called Christianity, and refuses to recant despite it potentially endangering their entire family(at this point the real characters had been married for 22 years and had 5 children) . This after he saved her life. And they had a happy marriage before her father's treachery. She even first learned of Christianity from him talking about a friend he had who was Christian. Buntaro should sue Clevell for libel. Lol
How much of Toranaga's army was lost? I didn't get the impression it was significant but maybe missed something. I hope Toranaga doesn't have to rely on those particular swords in battle. He should have access to a quality spare or a smith that can tune them up to functional.
This series has consistently been blowing my mind... MUCH WATCH SHOW AND EPISODE BREAKDOWN!!!!
You guys have no idea how long I've been waiting for this! You guys have become a tradition on Shogun!
After every episode I'm waiting for these videos
I watch these reviews to see if anyone gets Blackthorne's joke in ep. 5, "All my war stories have holes", old sailors joke
🤣🤣🤣
There is a parable in Japan about the three unifiers that perfectly explains Tokugawa’s(Toganaga) disposition:
-When asked how to make a caged bird sing, Oda Nobunaga (Goroda) answers “if it doesn’t sing I will kill it”. Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Nakamura Hidetoshi) answers “I will make the bird sing”. Tokugawa Ieyasu(Yoshii Toranaga) answers “I will wait for it to sing”.-
Also my partner is from Osaka and years ago when she found me reading the novel, she told me they grew up with a children’s saying:
- Oda makes the pie, Nakamura bakes the pie and Tokugawa eats the pie -
Thank you for this forum. I loved the book, am loving the show and the discussion is awesome. It’s great seeing peoples reaction and joy to the story and characters and is the closest I can get to reliving reading it for the first time. Enjoy the rest of the series!
Shogun is amazing. Definitely appreciate these comprehensive breakdowns 🙏
Yes. Been waiting for this review. Best episode so far imo
I highly recommend the shows podcast that's on UA-cam for each episode. The host is one of the writers on the show and they bring in actors, writers, and historians to talk about what went on during the show. Brings a lot of insight to what is shown.
So cool to see the love for the show. Shogun has been such a treat
Lots of reviewer shows on UA-cam, but your conversations and observations stand above the rest.
I look forward to these reviews every week. It's great having the comparison of the book. I listened to the audiobook and it's amazing but Steve's recollection is much better than my own. Guess I need to read it a few more dozen times to match Steve. Here's to five more amazing weeks! Thanks Cine Files!
The Best Shogun review channel by far. I’ve watched John for years back with Campea and Shnepp. Love his insight and now with Steve’s knowledge of the book this is a perfect pairing. Keep it up guys 🤙🏼🤙🏼😎
Hugely enjoyable review, guys.
These are wonderful reviews I am so enjoying them. Thank you so much. I live in Japan, have done for 23 years. My family is Japanese.....unbelievably wonderful people. whom I love dearly....and I know 2024 is different from medieval Japan,,,,,but scratch a Japanese person.....underneath is Japanese!! This is such a different culture, from my UK Welsh.....but I love them! God knows how Blackthorn survived! My son, Taiki with the pheasant scenes, was physically sick!! Forgetting his father has eaten natto every morning! for tears!! Once again thank you for the reviews!
Loving these in depth reviews Outlaw and Steve! ✌🏾✌🏾
Next ep: Blackthorn: To his staff, "Don't kill anyone without asking me first." Later on entire house is overrun by bandits, they all get wiped out bc he wasn't there to give permission to fight back.
I was late to Shogun but I absolutely love it, and have been recommending it to people to watch. I also went back to hear your discussions on the previous episodes, so now that I'm all caught up, I was really looking forward to hearing yours and Steve's thoughts - really thoughtful and thought provoking conversation - keep up the great work 🤙
I'm going to have to go and watch Cinephiles. For no particular reason, I never bothered checking it out even though I follow most other Rocha shows, but I'm really enjoying Morris's takes. Thanks for these reviews.
As someone who loved the book, and also most of Clavell’s Asian Saga, your take on each episode is my favourite of all the breakdown analyses.
I enjoy the discussions on the differences and where it adds or takes away from the story.
Sorry Steve, I don’t think we are getting the scene that you keep referring to. I think that ship has sailed… pardon the pun.
The joint I've been waiting for all day! Let's gooooooooo!
For me - Toranaga's smirk after he's saved from the earthquake - he's recognizing the irony (or karma/fate) that he was saved by Blackthorne. Remember, he's in his own armed camp, filled with his own troops. And of all the people around him, it's this strange foreigner who saves his life. And Toranaga previously made Blackthorne hatamoto (mostly to protect the Anjin) - again more irony/karma/fate.
He didn't save him alone, there were five other people there. Weird of you to act like Blackthorne did it all on his own instead of seeing it as a team effort. Seems you need to pay closer attention.
@@boxtears Of course I saw it was a few people who jumped down the hillside. But who went first? Who actually found Toranaga? Who cleared Toranaga's throat when he was choking? Who did Toranaga see first after the rescue?
@@bani_niba So you're saying if Blackthorne didn't go after him, his people would've just done nothing? You must have a very low opinion of Japanese people. Shame you missed the point of this show.
Mariko has said I think a few times now “we live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.” She says it with pessimism but I think this show is unraveling how much power there is in the choice of life and death. Look back at all the times a character has been presented with the option to take their own life or that of another. Blackthorne didn’t listen to his captain who took his own life. He was spared by an impatient Kashigi from being boiled alive. Kashigi in turn risked and almost took his own life in helping him save Rodrigues. And on and on. Each character making the choice of life or death and each choice is having a profound influence on how this story is unfolding. There is always that which we have no control over like an earthquake but that does not take away from the power that Mariko laments nor the consequences of that power.
In Japan, more than 200 earthquakes with a seismic intensity of 1 or higher are measured each year.
Currently, more than 2,000 "active faults" have been discovered in Japan, but there are also many "active faults" that are hidden underground and do not appear on the surface.
In addition, major disasters such as typhoons and heavy rains have occurred elsewhere in Japan, and these have had a great impact on the Japanese people's views on life and death, religion, and culture.
Earthquakes, typhoons, volcanoes, tsunamis, the United States Army Air Force....the list of disasters is almost endless....
You forgot Godzilla
Please put this weekly Cine files special treat straight into my veins
Wonderful analysis of Mariko's response to Blackthorne. (as I reach down deep into my bookcase for my copy of the Tao te Ching for a refresher)
39:47 the relationship between Toranaga and Yabu reminds me of a quote in Kurosawa’s “Hidden Fortress” where two scheming knucklehead peasants are lured into transporting gold and a princess refugee by a general playing on their greed and treachery. When General Makabe is asked how long they can rely on the rapacious pair, he answers:
- We can rely on their greed-
Yes the spy is revealed at the end of the book, but it is accurate that the gardener volunteered to do the honor of removing the pheasant
I've been enjoying these reviews as all Outlaw content via podcast, but Steve is nearly silent in this episode. Please keep in mind for future episodes.
I really love this review.
I absolutely can't imagine they would cut "that scene" out of the show. I am fully expecting it to be next episode. I think including it before the Gardener scene would have been premature as I don't think Blackthorne was as yet at a point in his journey as to make it fully believable. They HAVE to include it, right? Somebody convince me! But as close as the show has been to the book and as integral as that scene is and how much it would bridge the coldness that now lies between Blackthorne and Mariko who still sees him as a barbarian in her hidden heart, I can't see the scene being skipped. I just can't. My theory is that its happening and that this is the reason the showrunners delayed Blackthorne's learning of Japanese. In the book Blackthorne's reaction to the language ultimatum stretched credulity a little for me as clearly he was a bit of a polygot and he'd have learned Japanese to even the most stringent definition of satisfactory in 6 months. This show's Blackthorne would have a more believable reason to be concerned that he wouldn't learn enough in time and thus be justly afraid for the fate of the villagers.
Oooh. That's so tantalizing! Thank you for not spoiling it; I still have no idea what this dramatic scene is.
I could barely even hear Steve on the podcast feed. At least here I can hear him. Hopefully the audio is better in the future.
I rushed to these videos as soon as I get done with every episode!
Great review, great review. I'm under the weather, but I found this enjoyable.
0:49 bay area native myself by way of Oakland... so beautiful, enjoy your stay in the bay ❤
Amazing episode 🙌
Jinsai killing the lord reminds me of Jaime Lannister (got) killing his lord. Both, we’re for the “greater good”. And both are viewed as a “king slayer”. Great writing
One thing I feel is under commented on for this ep is just how funny it was. All of Fuji’s comments and disgust & the whole dinner was hilarious… until… it really, really, wasn’t…
Me on Monday: woah this episode was insane
Me on Tuesday: omg where’s the spoiler review?!😭😭😭
Is it me or was his mic really low I couldn't hear him
⁉️Y'all mentioned the book provides further detailed exposition from a character's inner thoughts to its readers, whereas, this was provided by the great Orson Welles... Do you think adding a verbal narrator would add or detract to this current iteration of Shogun , what sayyou?
Thx.. 🤔👍❕️
Sadly it's quite embarassing how many American reviewers show their ignorance about history, language and cuture of for them foreign countries. I think that's the core problem the whole world has with Americans.
@JohnRochaSays Steve's audio was way too low compared to yours. Had to turn the volume way up to hear him and then turn it back down when you talked.
Yes. His audio setting was low and he was not on his usual set up. We couldn’t fix it.
The main source of friction in the relationship between Mariko and Buntaro is that she became a member of a crazy foreign cult called Christianity, and refuses to recant despite it potentially endangering their entire family(at this point the real characters had been married for 22 years and had 5 children) . This after he saved her life. And they had a happy marriage before her father's treachery. She even first learned of Christianity from him talking about a friend he had who was Christian. Buntaro should sue Clevell for libel. Lol
How much of Toranaga's army was lost? I didn't get the impression it was significant but maybe missed something.
I hope Toranaga doesn't have to rely on those particular swords in battle. He should have access to a quality spare or a smith that can tune them up to functional.
In real life Tokugawa (Torinaga) is the one who years earlier had to have his wife and daughter killed to prove loyalty to his lord.
pésimo audio! La diferencia de volumen no deja concentrarse en la conversación.
Sorry man, Steve's mic was too low, not a fun listen.
Its Shogun not Showgun!
Worthless filler episode just like 4..shows done lost its luster
Your guys audio levels are kinda off, John is really loud but Steve is super quiet
Yes. And it’s because Steve is up in the Bay Area without his usual set up. So apologies but it’ll be back to normal next week.
Awesome!!@@JohnRochaSays