Off Topic Comment: I struggle with bitterness when it comes to the 6.5 CM. I have a 260 Rem and it matches the CM in accuracy and exceeds it in velocity by 50-75 fps in all of the reloading manuals up to the 140g projectile. The ONLY time the CM beats the 260 Rem is with projectiles in the 150g class. I get BITTER when I read articles that say the 260 Rem is underpowered, but the same folks will then say the 6.5 CM can be used on ALL big game species including Elk. I am sticking with my 260 Rem shooting the 130g Accubond.
The 260 wasn't given its reins as a factory load, whereas the 6.5 was specd at mighty good pressures as an OTC load. I suspect the there was also something like what happened to the Rem SAUM: they built a fabulous cartridge but marketed it poorly in the wrong format of a rifle that wasn't particularly likeable. The creedmoor is a great example of great marketing matching the right cartridge at the exact right time in trends, which is the exact opposite of what Remington did so many times.
If Craig Boddingtons wife use the 260 then I wouldn’t worry about what people think since he has hunted in more country’s around the world then any hunter alive today and I am sure he can hunt with any caliber that he want as does his wife and she hunts with a 260. I have been hunting reloading and collecting 60+ years and I have about every caliber and cartridge made and I have 3 sons and we don’t hunt with a Creedmore🤔😳 if it works for you then that’s all that matters!
Nothing against the 6.5, great cartridge. But I like my trusty old .243 or my .270 I’m a fan of all the time honored classics. I grew up with them & they are easy to reload & have good accurate results.
The 6.5 caliber goes back to the late 1890s. It is a time honored classic which has taken every kind of game all over the world. Karamojo Bell even took elephants and buffalo with it.
Sako is the only brand I hunt with for years and they make the best Hunting rifle for the price! I have customs and lots of other high end rifles but the Sako is my choice for good reason!
I recently found 3 rounds of 243 winchester 100 gr PowerPoint bullets that would not chamber in my good old Howa 1500 before deer season when I was making damn sure the gun was still dead on before my Alabama deer hunting excursion. There were no rifling marks on the damn bullets either. The brass shoulder had marks on it too. Mr. Randy knows what he is talking about with factory ammunition, and this exact same thing happened to me for the first time since I took up deer hunting over 50 years ago.
I'm neither a reloader or cartridge expert. I have been a machinist for 35 years. I commonly deal with tolerance of +/=.0005. This needs to be addressed at manufacturering level.
randy I am glad that you stated that you do not hate the 6.5 cm. I hunt elk grizzly and alaskan moose with 338 win mag, great tool , but I happen to hunt white tail, antelope, wild pigs with the 6.5 cm loaded with Nosler accubonds and it lights out on smaller size game. shot under 350 yard. better cartages, yes, but for accuracy lower recoil great tool for me. the haters are justified I guess when hunting elk with the 6.5 cm shooting to crazy distance with crappy target bullets. I spent many years in Alaska hunting, trapping, and flying living the bush life. I reload so I pity the guys that have to buy what the ammo manufactures have evil at crazy cost.
The hate for the 6.5cm is the marketing. Hornady makes anything they develop seem like it will turn you in to "that guy". The seal sniper. The PRS match winner.... It's another cartridge. It has it's limitations. It's great for target shooting and smaller game. As you put it, another great tool!
As cringe as Hornadys marketing and hype train is, you gotta hand it to them they make good cartridges and know what it takes to make them stick. In contrast Winchester seems to have forgotten about 6.8 western before ammo was even on the shelves for it.
@@dungeontales8117 The 6.5 mm has taken game all over the world since the late 1890s. It was designed as a military and hunting cartridge, not a target one. The 6.5 Swedish and 6.5 Creedmore ballistics are virtually indexical.
Didn't finish the video before commenting. I have a new Tikka T3x stainless LH 6.5 Creedmoor. Got it on sale. Actually the primary reason I bought it was to possibly trade a LH Tikka 708 to the guy that farms our land, for his son, to build me a new hunting blind. Got a RH Tikka 708 and a LH CM and I was going to swap barrels. Apparently Tikka doesn't make a stainless 708 so I was going to cerakote the metal to match. Anyway it was not good timing for him so I'm keeping both, and just tagged 4 deer, 2 with each. Like with all new rifles, first thing I did was clean the barrel to bare metal. Got 2 types of ammo - Norma Whitetail 140 grain and Norma Bondstrike 143 grain. Range-time was awesome. Right from the start, the Bondstrike made a cloverleaf 3 shot group at 100, all touching. The Whitetail ammo was even better. Put 3 of each downrange then adjusted the scope to 1" high at 100. Was nice that POI was identical for both loads. No chambering issues with either and didn't occur to me it was a possibility. This is the 3rd Stainless Tikka T3x that has done this with both types of Norma factory ammo. The other 2 are clones, both 300WM. Deer were euthanize like any other rifle cartridge from 80 yards to 305 yards. No performance difference with the CM v. any other cartridge I've used on deer. The 708 deer were with Norma 150 Whitetail factory ammo, again, same outcome. So, out to 300 yards, I can't tell any difference in how dead the deer are and this is with my now, smallest cartridge, 6.5CM, up to 300RUM or 338WM. I've got my eyes on a pre-owned Tikka 260 on an online auction. Just received 200 rounds of Sellier and Bellot factory ammo in 6.5CM, 131 grain and 140 grain. Based on this video, just went and double checked to make sure they all chambered. They did.
@@NelsonAdvisors Actually after reading your comment I did double check the box and they are 150 grain Norma Whitetail, not 140. And yes, they shoot amazing in my 708 also. Curiously, I took 3 different ammo to the range when I got it. The other 2 are Hornady 139 grain American Whitetail ammo, and Remington 140 Corelokt (pretty sure it's not 150). The Rem ammo was ok at 1" group but the Hornady was crap....at first. Once I got about 15 rounds down the barrel from all 3 ammo types, I decided to try the Hornady again just get more bullets down the bore. Man, what a change. The next 2 three shot groups with that Hornady ammo were as good or better than the Norma. One 3/8" group and one just under 1/2". So for whatever reason in this very small sample, the Hornady did extremely well also. I went back to the store and bought the last few boxes of Norma and Hornady making sure they were the same LOT number
@@Accuracy1st I’m a big Norma fan……high quality stuff made in Sweden. Shot a big 9 point whitetail this year that weighed 200 dressed out with the Norma stuff. It only went like 3 feet and nosedived into a Hemlock tree. Full mushroom……found it while gutting. My dad, the following day, shot a doe with a Winchester Deer Season XP cup and core bullet, in 308. Complete opposite effect, found the remnants of the bullet, complete separation of cup and core and shrapnel everywhere in the meat. It was horrible.
@@NelsonAdvisors I just watched a youtube video this morning and the guy is new to the 6.5CM. He bought a Ruger American and a bunch of Norma 143 Bondstrke on clearance at his local Rural King for $15/box. He said he wished he had bought more because they had about 70 boxes in stock but he bought around 10. For that price I would have bought it all. I paid $47/box. Anyway, his goal was to hit a gong at 1000 yards and he did. I'm currently shopping for more Norma ammo right now in 270Win, 308, 30-06, 708, 6.5CM, 280 Rem
Last fall I had 2 shells out of a box of 300 Weatherby ammunition that the bolt would not close in a Weatherby rifle. All others in the box worked fine.
All I hear now days is Creedmoore this, PRC that, ARC this. They keep trying to market these new cartridges to the military which just went 6.8mm. Most of the long range pro shooters are using wild cats.
I had a similar experience with a 7x64 Brenneke in my earlier years in Europe. I had bought a box of Meyers ( Fabric Make) loaded with 175 gr Nosler Partitions. At least half of the 20 cartridges in that box did not allow to close the chamber of my Mauser 98 and the ones that were fired showed excessive pressure signs. At that time I had no fine measuring tools but I am sure the brass variation was the culprit.
I work at a gun counter in Idaho. I am constantly bombarded by young inexperienced hunters who have bought all the Hornady and internet crap that cocktail time calibers can be used to finesse our big game. Shame on Hornady for promoting the cripling of our orth American big game animals. At work, after hearing all the horror stories, we now call the 6.5 Creedmoor the 6.5 cripplemore.
Is it a problem with the cartridge or is it an issue with a lack of understanding? I dont own a Creedmore, but I have witnessed its use first hand on over a half dozen whitetails, including the biggest PA whitetail anyone in the family has ever taken. With a 300 yard shot and a proper grain weight monolithic, that big buck just piled up in a heap. Now, you’re from Idaho, so no doubt there are bigger game animals in question. I would categorize the 6.5 Creedmore, even with premium bullets, to be marginal for elk-sized game. For antelope, mulies, and whitetail, I don’t think that a person is wrong to pick a 6.5 CM. In fact, I don’t think their odds of wounding with that cartridge are any greater than many other classic cartridges, as long as they do their part.
In 2021 I bought my first and only 6.5 Creedmmor. It's a Sauer 100 Silver XT S1SX65C. A considerable amount of effort was required to turn the bolt handle down on each loaded round of factory made Federal Premium 140 grain ammo. Slightly less effort was required to lift the handle on a fired case. This is much more force than is required to close and open the bolt on a Savage 110 Scout in 308 Winchester. I thought the Sauer's double ejectors and extractor were to blame because there were no obvious signs of over-pressure on the fired cases, but I stopped shooting after the fourth round and contacted Sauer. Their representative had me run some tests which indicated everything was functioning correctly. I did my own followup test comparing the two rifles. The bolt rotation force required to full close the bolt of the Savage was 2.5 pounds for both empty cases and live rounds. With the Sauer the closure on an empty case was 5.5 pounds and on a live round was 17.5 pounds. Sauer assured me they've never had an out-of-sec chamber, so I checked the dimensions of the factory loaded rounds. They have an OAL of 2.725”, which his below the SAAMI spec of 2.825”. I'm stumped and thanks to the CHICOM Flu epidemic that was ongoing, I put the rifle away and forgot about the issue until I saw your video. Now I'm back to wondering if anything is wrong with my rifle/ammo?
@@stickdweller No, I had too many other projects ongoing and forgot about it. The Sauer rep theorized there might be corrosion in the chamber or some kind of a rough spot, so he suggested I polish the chamber with 0000 steel wool and paste. If that didn't work, he offered to send me a return ticket.
@@edwardabrams4972 A Go gauge will barely go. It requires about the same amount of force as when using the Federal ammo. Other ammo brands will go in without much trouble. Our conclusion is the chamber, while technically in spec, is too tight and should be lengthened a small amount. I'm going to contact Sauer again and see if they are willing to do this.
I’m happy with my 7x57. If there’s still an issue with the 6.5Cr, that’s hard to believe since Randy released his video detailing his observations about the 6.5Cr case variations. That video should have been enough for every ammo maker to double check their dimensions and get them to spec. I wonder if the companies will think about this situation now or just shrug and sigh… Randy’s done a great job of explaining the 6.5Cr case issue, it’s just a shame he can’t understand it for them, lol!
Joseph is not saying the chamber is changing what he is saying is with a tight chamer some of the brass/loaded rounds may not be consistent and may not chamber check to make sure they will chamber before you go hunting
I noticed something similar - though less pronounced- with the 6.5x55mm SE: In more prosperous times I owned a Viking Arms Model 1900 and tried different kinds of ammo in it (Federal blue box, Federal fusion, Winchester grey box, Hornady, PPU, Nosler and Norma and Lapua (all 140 gr. loads)). As I recall the Federal blue box was the worst (suggestive of a no-go gauge), then Winchester grey box, then PPU, then Hornady, with Nosler, Norma, and Lapua exhibiting no tightness. As times got tough I had to sell it but was consoled by the fact I had a Bubba-fied milsurp in the same chambering which shot just as well and wasn't as fussy about ammo brands.
I’ve read about the S20 very interested but very expensive also , I’m impressed that randy had mentioned 6.5 cm a dozen times and not put shit on it , that rifle I believe in any performance caliber would a pleasure to own
Not limited to 6.5 creedmoor. I've had this problem with Winchester ammo in my 300 win mag. Q.C. in general is not up to the same standards as in years past.
Exactly that last video you made about deferent brass and reamers, my god what a mess, I have a savage model 10 24 inch thread cap barrel 6.5 and have not noticed any trouble with bolt tension chambering a round, I think my model has some distance in the throught for jump to the lands and groves, reamer savage uses is my guess leaves extra jump but as you mentioned in this mess not just brass differences but reamer differences among manufacturers
Savage rifles use a floating head design on the bolts. This may be why everything chambers easier. That floating head designed by Savage a very long time ago also contributes to their above average accuracy.
@@libra7624 well it was born of target shooting out to long ranges. It’s precision pedigree is well known but for hunting we must know and abide by the limitations of its killing power on big game.
Let's see if he stops bashing it because he finally realized it's an excellent cartridge design...my money is on him continuing to complain about it. Yep, still painting the 6.5 CM in a bad light because he doesn't like how accurate it is, out of the box. Yes, the chambers are, in fact, cut to tighter tolerances. The brass (99% of it) fits those tighter chambers. It is IMPROVED tolerances that have led to more and more accurate factory rifles, and that's cuttin' into his business. If this wasn't true, he'd be complaining about all kinds of brass, not just 6.5 Creedmoor brass. Back some years ago, the Federal GMM 308 brass was dead soft in the head...not safe to reload, with loose pockets after just the factory load was fired. I don't remember Randy bitching about that.
The likelihood is that the chamber and the cartridge cases are both in spec, given the variations in tolerances for both. The chamber is toward the minimum spec, and the brass is toward the maximum.
Yes Randy this is true. But even as a hand loader I have found factory cases out of spec. I once bought 200 new cases of Remington Peters .243 Winchester Brass and although the shoulder angle was fine almost every case needed trimming after sizing and before components are added. Do you recommend a chamber gauge such as a Wilson case gauge to your reloading regiment?
Interesting. I'm old school and have hunted with big guns. 300 RUM, 338 Win, 375 Ruger... I've been watching many hunting videos lately, and I am surprised how effective the 6.5 CM is on big game, using the correct bullet and shot placement. I'm starting to wonder if I've been brainwashed into using big Magnum cartridges? Yes, I have actual use experience. I kind of reason if a broadhead can kill an elk, so can a 6.5 CM? So despite my never dreaming of hunting with such a dinky cartridge, I'm going to! The 6.5 CM haters out there are actually pushing me towards one. Not to mention that an American made Springfield Waypoint 2020 has me giddy! When I shoulder it in the store, it wants so much to go home with me, and seldom does a rifle speak to me like this one! I can just see taking deer, black bear, and elk with it! I suspect if I do my part, I'll be getting my knife out often. My second choice is a 6.8 Western, in a 20-inch Christensen Arms carbon Ridgeline FFT. It's short action, handy, light, and slings 165 ABLRs. From black timber to mountains, within normal hunting ranges, it seems like a great go-to! I suspect the 6.8 would be the better choice, but the Springfield rifle, specifically in 6.5 CM, has me hooked! I might just need them both! I'm sorry to hear about bad cases, but that fact, along with many other stated online dislikes, does not push me away from 6.5 CM nor Christian Arms.
Interesting. I had this happen with my Tikka and a box of Nosler ballistic tip ammo in 6.5 cm.....out of twenty, I could only chamber ten rounds. Ten! I googled it and found that others had the same problem with Nosler ammo and Tikkas, in the same caliber.
Something else nobody talks about, is the time it takes to stabilize a heavy-for-caliber round. Staying in the 140 range, means your rounds might not be fully stabilized until at least 25-50yds, offering unpredictable performance on game at close ranges. I do use a 6.5 CM for lighter species, but I load in the 120 range for the woods.
Isn't it really an issue of tolerances? The old chambers were reamed out slightly larger to give a greater tolerance for the ammo to fit. The ammo had more tolerance to operate in. With the creedmoor, they tightened the chamber tolerance for accuracy purposes which gave less tolerance for the ammo. So theres less room for error with the brass dimensions. So technically, yes, its a problem with the ammo. But its because the chamber tolerances are tighter, which means the chamber is reamed smaller with less tolerance for the ammo to fit. The ammo has to be more precisely manufactured than a 300 win mag for example.
Randy, Thank You for your informative programs! I own a Sako A-7 Long Range in 308 win. Recently I experienced tight bolt closures on some rounds in a box of New Federal Terminal Ascent 175gr.ammo. The shot rounds ejected well, but when chambering the round, the bolt was slightly more difficult to close than normal. They seem to shoot fine and they are acurate. My questions are, Can these out of spec tight rounds be potentially Dangerous to myself the shooter? Or can these tight fitting rounds harm to the rifle?? Thanks Again!!
I like my 30 calibers much more. Now off subject. Are there any bullet manufactures that make a basic do all bullet. Example; 300wm. I use a 210 Accubond LR or 200 gr Sierra SBT bullet for hunting. 1000 yard target I use Berger 215gr hybrid Target. Two totally different powders, primers and bullets. Are there any bullets that can be you can use for both? Same load for both. So all l9ading is the same practicing, hunting and shooting LR. Jeffrey
This is Cathy, The Real Gunsmith's Wife: I played the video, and while I had to turn up the volume because of a bit of background from forced air [to cool at that time] I could hear it well enough. Sorry you had difficulty. Thanks for watching and taking time out to comment.
Don't worry you will get used to the dentures. Took me awhile but I use fixodent glue on em now holds em right in. I can tell your struggling to talk clear just like i did when I first got em.
I had a tight round one time in the hundreds I have shot. The bolt closed but with much more effort. It would not eject. I lightly tapped it with my cleaning rod, and it came out. It's my fault. I shouldn't have fired it when the bolt was harder than normal. So it can happen and was an out of spec case.
It just sounds like an ammo problem, which can happen with any cartridge. The 6.5 Creedmoor can be touchy, though, especially if the bullet's shank rests inside the freebore, since the cartridge has a very tight freebore spec. Freebore has a minimum diameter only a tenth of a thou over max bullet diameter, so I can see issues if the neck is slightly off center or does not hold the bullet straight (.2645" + .002 freebore dia, and .2644" - .003 bullet dia). The freebore tolerance is + .002", though, so I imagine most chambers are not right at the minimum spec.
Years ago I got a Parker Hale in 30/06 with the Santa Barbara Mauser action. It had been rebarreled. Box of Federal power shok all chambered fine, all of the Highland would not! Once I got into reloading any new brass fired in it resized is fine, ANY brass NOT fired in it resized will not chamber!
This seems so obvious to me . Can't believe he published that and didn't catch that. Made himself sound like a noob. Chambers don't get tight on 2 rounds and not the rest. So obvious it's an ammo sizing issue 🙄
Randy thanks for pointing this out although it is painfully obvious ! He is blaming the rifle in part simply because the ammunition manufacturers ( Advertise) much more than Saco . It’s all about Advertising money ( revenue ) to the magazine ! Just like all these new cartridges are all about selling new cartridges ! Sorry the truth is not always pleasant !…….
Gun writers have been slaves to the big gun/ammo/components companies since forever. Take every article written by authors being paid by advertisers or sponsors with a grain of NaCl.
Mr Randy that’s a great hat by the way. 300 Blackout is just a waste of powder in my opinion I know this is about the 6.5 Creedmore but the 300 BO just doesn’t set right with me but we all got our opinions
Joe did an interview on UA-cam, where he actually said he'd shoot a large buck out from his own kids. Funny as his brother shot that buck out from that lady. Guess those two brothers are more the same then different. (Utah boys, I guess -IDK) He fits real well with Ron.
The sales of 6.5 Creedmore guns and ammo speak for themselves. It's a great all around cartridge that fulfills the needs and requirements of most hunters on all non-dangerous game.
It’s a good cartridge that’s not needed for hunting . The 2506 and 270 are both superior as a hunting cartridge . It does have a place in target shooting for which it was designed for . It’s popular mainly because of marketing hype ! It’s all about selling new rifles !……..
@@thomasdaum1927 you have it backwards, it looks like the public thinks the 25-06 is not needed and the 270 is in decline (usually underloaded) while the 6.5 Creedmore has gained vastly in popularity. Less recoil than the 270 and heavier bullets than the 25-06 can handle so it hit the sweet spot. The Swedes knew what they were doing 120 years ago when they select the 6.5 mm as ideal.
I fell for the numbers/sales volume game. I have two 6.5 Creedmoor hunting rifles that sit in the safe and are no longer used for hunting. I bought two when my son started hunting with me at the age of 12. I thought sharing a common cartridge would make sense. We stopped using them after one season after coming to the conclusion that they didn’t have the killing efficiency that we wanted. He learned to deal with the recoil of a 30-06 and we happily moved on with life. 30-06 has the killing efficiency we prefer. My limited experience with the 6.5 Creedmoor was that any shot other than a “high shoulder” required significant tracking. A perfect “high shoulder” shot still took longer than I like for the game to expire. It wasn’t the hunting round for me. I attribute my experience to the lower velocity. 6.5 PRC and .264 Win Mag kill efficiently for me.
@@robertneal4112 sounds like you need to improve your marksmanship. Going with the 30-06 will not help if you can't put the bullet in the right spot. If the 6.5 Creedmore failed to kill as you state, it would not sell. I have used an even weaker cartridge on deer (243 Win.) and it kills them very efficiently. The 6.5 caliber has been used worldwide for over 120 years with great results, even with rudimentary bullet technology.
Why would you ask a master Gunsmith, if he ever heard of SAAMI? where do you think Chamber meassurements come from when he makes, orders reaming chambers for his customers rifles. Every custom Smith would ream chambers eyeballing the meassurements. Only factory series rifles would be accurate as they are mass produced, and they are not, Some do.
@Denver probably shows up to his local indoor range wearing his 511 tactical pants bragging about his 25 yard 6.5 Creedmoor groups. It shoots an 1/8 inch lol.
Joseph vonbenadick, is this the same guy that tried to shot the leg off a deer someone else had already shot and claimed it was his. Sure let’s take his advice.
Off Topic Comment: I struggle with bitterness when it comes to the 6.5 CM. I have a 260 Rem and it matches the CM in accuracy and exceeds it in velocity by 50-75 fps in all of the reloading manuals up to the 140g projectile. The ONLY time the CM beats the 260 Rem is with projectiles in the 150g class. I get BITTER when I read articles that say the 260 Rem is underpowered, but the same folks will then say the 6.5 CM can be used on ALL big game species including Elk. I am sticking with my 260 Rem shooting the 130g Accubond.
Don't be bitter...use what works for you! Never used one, but by all accounts the 260 Rem is a terrific round.
The 260 wasn't given its reins as a factory load, whereas the 6.5 was specd at mighty good pressures as an OTC load. I suspect the there was also something like what happened to the Rem SAUM: they built a fabulous cartridge but marketed it poorly in the wrong format of a rifle that wasn't particularly likeable. The creedmoor is a great example of great marketing matching the right cartridge at the exact right time in trends, which is the exact opposite of what Remington did so many times.
I run a 260 rem. 130gr berger bullets very accurate long range combination
If Craig Boddingtons wife use the 260 then I wouldn’t worry about what people think since he has hunted in more country’s around the world then any hunter alive today and I am sure he can hunt with any caliber that he want as does his wife and she hunts with a 260. I have been hunting reloading and collecting 60+ years and I have about every caliber and cartridge made and I have 3 sons and we don’t hunt with a Creedmore🤔😳 if it works for you then that’s all that matters!
Personally I've come to hate anything with a cm name... ( How do you say you wear dresses without saying I wear dresses cm)
Nothing against the 6.5, great cartridge.
But I like my trusty old .243 or my .270
I’m a fan of all the time honored classics. I grew up with them & they are easy to reload & have good accurate results.
The 6.5 caliber goes back to the late 1890s. It is a time honored classic which has taken every kind of game all over the world. Karamojo Bell even took elephants and buffalo with it.
Sako is building one of the best rifles today. Thank you sir for your knowledge.Ceep going with your education videos.👍
Sako is the only brand I hunt with for years and they make the best Hunting rifle for the price! I have customs and lots of other high end rifles but the Sako is my choice for good reason!
@@edwardabrams4972can't beat the tikkas too for their price point
I recently found 3 rounds of 243 winchester 100 gr PowerPoint bullets that would not chamber in my good old Howa 1500 before deer season when I was making damn sure the gun was still dead on before my Alabama deer hunting excursion. There were no rifling marks on the damn bullets either. The brass shoulder had marks on it too.
Mr. Randy knows what he is talking about with factory ammunition, and this exact same thing happened to me for the first time since I took up deer hunting over 50 years ago.
It's crazy that the guy had to think that hard about what the problem was, then publish an article with that statement!
Been binge watching your videos last three days. Thanks for taking the time to inform all us with your knowledge and insight.
I'm neither a reloader or cartridge expert. I have been a machinist for 35 years. I commonly deal with tolerance of +/=.0005. This needs to be addressed at manufacturering level.
I agree
randy I am glad that you stated that you do not hate the 6.5 cm. I hunt elk grizzly and alaskan moose with 338 win mag, great tool , but I happen to hunt white tail, antelope, wild pigs with the 6.5 cm loaded with Nosler accubonds and it lights out on smaller size game. shot under 350 yard. better cartages, yes, but for accuracy lower recoil great tool for me. the haters are justified I guess when hunting elk with the 6.5 cm shooting to crazy distance with crappy target bullets. I spent many years in Alaska hunting, trapping, and flying living the bush life. I reload so I pity the guys that have to buy what the ammo manufactures have evil at crazy cost.
The hate for the 6.5cm is the marketing. Hornady makes anything they develop seem like it will turn you in to "that guy". The seal sniper. The PRS match winner....
It's another cartridge. It has it's limitations. It's great for target shooting and smaller game. As you put it, another great tool!
As cringe as Hornadys marketing and hype train is, you gotta hand it to them they make good cartridges and know what it takes to make them stick. In contrast Winchester seems to have forgotten about 6.8 western before ammo was even on the shelves for it.
@@Westerner_ lol hit the nail on the head.
The cost of reloading supplies has increased so there is no advantage to reloading unless you reload rare and unusual rounds.
@@dungeontales8117 The 6.5 mm has taken game all over the world since the late 1890s. It was designed as a military and hunting cartridge, not a target one. The 6.5 Swedish and 6.5 Creedmore ballistics are virtually indexical.
Didn't finish the video before commenting. I have a new Tikka T3x stainless LH 6.5 Creedmoor. Got it on sale. Actually the primary reason I bought it was to possibly trade a LH Tikka 708 to the guy that farms our land, for his son, to build me a new hunting blind. Got a RH Tikka 708 and a LH CM and I was going to swap barrels. Apparently Tikka doesn't make a stainless 708 so I was going to cerakote the metal to match. Anyway it was not good timing for him so I'm keeping both, and just tagged 4 deer, 2 with each.
Like with all new rifles, first thing I did was clean the barrel to bare metal. Got 2 types of ammo - Norma Whitetail 140 grain and Norma Bondstrike 143 grain. Range-time was awesome. Right from the start, the Bondstrike made a cloverleaf 3 shot group at 100, all touching. The Whitetail ammo was even better. Put 3 of each downrange then adjusted the scope to 1" high at 100. Was nice that POI was identical for both loads. No chambering issues with either and didn't occur to me it was a possibility. This is the 3rd Stainless Tikka T3x that has done this with both types of Norma factory ammo. The other 2 are clones, both 300WM.
Deer were euthanize like any other rifle cartridge from 80 yards to 305 yards. No performance difference with the CM v. any other cartridge I've used on deer. The 708 deer were with Norma 150 Whitetail factory ammo, again, same outcome. So, out to 300 yards, I can't tell any difference in how dead the deer are and this is with my now, smallest cartridge, 6.5CM, up to 300RUM or 338WM. I've got my eyes on a pre-owned Tikka 260 on an online auction.
Just received 200 rounds of Sellier and Bellot factory ammo in 6.5CM, 131 grain and 140 grain. Based on this video, just went and double checked to make sure they all chambered. They did.
Norma whitetail 150 grain 7mm-08 shoots amazing out of my Tikka T3x Superlite.
@@NelsonAdvisors Actually after reading your comment I did double check the box and they are 150 grain Norma Whitetail, not 140. And yes, they shoot amazing in my 708 also. Curiously, I took 3 different ammo to the range when I got it. The other 2 are Hornady 139 grain American Whitetail ammo, and Remington 140 Corelokt (pretty sure it's not 150). The Rem ammo was ok at 1" group but the Hornady was crap....at first. Once I got about 15 rounds down the barrel from all 3 ammo types, I decided to try the Hornady again just get more bullets down the bore. Man, what a change. The next 2 three shot groups with that Hornady ammo were as good or better than the Norma. One 3/8" group and one just under 1/2". So for whatever reason in this very small sample, the Hornady did extremely well also. I went back to the store and bought the last few boxes of Norma and Hornady making sure they were the same LOT number
@@Accuracy1st I’m a big Norma fan……high quality stuff made in Sweden. Shot a big 9 point whitetail this year that weighed 200 dressed out with the Norma stuff. It only went like 3 feet and nosedived into a Hemlock tree. Full mushroom……found it while gutting. My dad, the following day, shot a doe with a Winchester Deer Season XP cup and core bullet, in 308. Complete opposite effect, found the remnants of the bullet, complete separation of cup and core and shrapnel everywhere in the meat. It was horrible.
@@NelsonAdvisors I just watched a youtube video this morning and the guy is new to the 6.5CM. He bought a Ruger American and a bunch of Norma 143 Bondstrke on clearance at his local Rural King for $15/box. He said he wished he had bought more because they had about 70 boxes in stock but he bought around 10. For that price I would have bought it all. I paid $47/box. Anyway, his goal was to hit a gong at 1000 yards and he did. I'm currently shopping for more Norma ammo right now in 270Win, 308, 30-06, 708, 6.5CM, 280 Rem
Thank you Randy once again for your experience and wisdom! My neighbor has a saying....''You can't beat a man at his own game''! Pay attention people
Hats off to you sir! I love the chosen accessories 🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
Seiko (SAY-koh) makes watches. SAKO (SAH-koh) makes rifles. And darn good ones.
Thank you sir for making that simple answer to a problem we all have had
Last fall I had 2 shells out of a box of 300 Weatherby ammunition that the bolt would not close in a Weatherby rifle. All others in the box worked fine.
Was it Hornaday ammo?
Great topic..inconsistency in factory ammo is more prevalent than what you would expect.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and keep your videos coming please.
All I hear now days is Creedmoore this, PRC that, ARC this. They keep trying to market these new cartridges to the military which just went 6.8mm. Most of the long range pro shooters are using wild cats.
Yeppie.. n Am So Over It..
These are good cartridges but No Where Near the Best Thing Since White Store Bought Sliced Bread...
My Savage 100 is stupid accurate. I have had no problem getting it to feed any factory ammo. Great deer rifle.
I've never had a problem with my bergara in 6.5 cm and it's a half inch rifle right out of the box
I had a similar experience with a 7x64 Brenneke in my earlier years in Europe. I had bought a box of Meyers ( Fabric Make) loaded with 175 gr Nosler Partitions. At least half of the 20 cartridges in that box did not allow to close the chamber of my Mauser 98 and the ones that were fired showed excessive pressure signs. At that time I had no fine measuring tools but I am sure the brass variation was the culprit.
I work at a gun counter in Idaho. I am constantly bombarded by young inexperienced hunters who have bought all the Hornady and internet crap that cocktail time calibers can be used to finesse our big game. Shame on Hornady for promoting the cripling of our orth American big game animals. At work, after hearing all the horror stories, we now call the 6.5 Creedmoor the 6.5 cripplemore.
Is it a problem with the cartridge or is it an issue with a lack of understanding? I dont own a Creedmore, but I have witnessed its use first hand on over a half dozen whitetails, including the biggest PA whitetail anyone in the family has ever taken. With a 300 yard shot and a proper grain weight monolithic, that big buck just piled up in a heap.
Now, you’re from Idaho, so no doubt there are bigger game animals in question. I would categorize the 6.5 Creedmore, even with premium bullets, to be marginal for elk-sized game. For antelope, mulies, and whitetail, I don’t think that a person is wrong to pick a 6.5 CM. In fact, I don’t think their odds of wounding with that cartridge are any greater than many other classic cartridges, as long as they do their part.
In 2021 I bought my first and only 6.5 Creedmmor. It's a Sauer 100 Silver XT S1SX65C. A considerable amount of effort was required to turn the bolt handle down on each loaded round of factory made Federal Premium 140 grain ammo. Slightly less effort was required to lift the handle on a fired case. This is much more force than is required to close and open the bolt on a Savage 110 Scout in 308 Winchester. I thought the Sauer's double ejectors and extractor were to blame because there were no obvious signs of over-pressure on the fired cases, but I stopped shooting after the fourth round and contacted Sauer. Their representative had me run some tests which indicated everything was functioning correctly.
I did my own followup test comparing the two rifles. The bolt rotation force required to full close the bolt of the Savage was 2.5 pounds for both empty cases and live rounds. With the Sauer the closure on an empty case was 5.5 pounds and on a live round was 17.5 pounds.
Sauer assured me they've never had an out-of-sec chamber, so I checked the dimensions of the factory loaded rounds. They have an OAL of 2.725”, which his below the SAAMI spec of 2.825”. I'm stumped and thanks to the CHICOM Flu epidemic that was ongoing, I put the rifle away and forgot about the issue until I saw your video. Now I'm back to wondering if anything is wrong with my rifle/ammo?
Did you return your rifle to the company to inspect?
17.5 lb seems freakish.
Your best bet would be to take it to a gunsmith and let him run a Go no Go gauges to see if it’s within specs!
@@stickdweller No, I had too many other projects ongoing and forgot about it. The Sauer rep theorized there might be corrosion in the chamber or some kind of a rough spot, so he suggested I polish the chamber with 0000 steel wool and paste. If that didn't work, he offered to send me a return ticket.
@@edwardabrams4972 A Go gauge will barely go. It requires about the same amount of force as when using the Federal ammo. Other ammo brands will go in without much trouble. Our conclusion is the chamber, while technically in spec, is too tight and should be lengthened a small amount. I'm going to contact Sauer again and see if they are willing to do this.
I’m happy with my 7x57. If there’s still an issue with the 6.5Cr, that’s hard to believe since Randy released his video detailing his observations about the 6.5Cr case variations. That video should have been enough for every ammo maker to double check their dimensions and get them to spec. I wonder if the companies will think about this situation now or just shrug and sigh…
Randy’s done a great job of explaining the 6.5Cr case issue, it’s just a shame he can’t understand it for them, lol!
Joseph is not saying the chamber is changing what he is saying is with a tight chamer some of the brass/loaded rounds may not be consistent and may not chamber check to make sure they will chamber before you go hunting
I noticed something similar - though less pronounced- with the 6.5x55mm SE: In more prosperous times I owned a Viking Arms Model 1900 and tried different kinds of ammo in it (Federal blue box, Federal fusion, Winchester grey box, Hornady, PPU, Nosler and Norma and Lapua (all 140 gr. loads)). As I recall the Federal blue box was the worst (suggestive of a no-go gauge), then Winchester grey box, then PPU, then Hornady, with Nosler, Norma, and Lapua exhibiting no tightness. As times got tough I had to sell it but was consoled by the fact I had a Bubba-fied milsurp in the same chambering which shot just as well and wasn't as fussy about ammo brands.
I was even more surprised at how bad Federal was.@@FranzAntonMesmer
A case of these new tighter tolerance calibers being manufactured to a tighter tolerance than the ammo manufacturers are producing.
I’ve read about the S20 very interested but very expensive also , I’m impressed that randy had mentioned 6.5 cm a dozen times and not put shit on it , that rifle I believe in any performance caliber would a pleasure to own
Great Show.
Upon further review, the ruling on the field is confirmed. The 6.5 creedmoor is still gay
Not limited to 6.5 creedmoor. I've had this problem with Winchester ammo in my 300 win mag. Q.C. in general is not up to the same standards as in years past.
Exactly that last video you made about deferent brass and reamers, my god what a mess, I have a savage model 10 24 inch thread cap barrel 6.5 and have not noticed any trouble with bolt tension chambering a round, I think my model has some distance in the throught for jump to the lands and groves, reamer savage uses is my guess leaves extra jump but as you mentioned in this mess not just brass differences but reamer differences among manufacturers
Savage rifles use a floating head design on the bolts. This may be why everything chambers easier. That floating head designed by Savage a very long time ago also contributes to their above average accuracy.
I love the fixed 20 m.o.a rail, should be able to get some good reach if I had a playground to test out the 6.5@@14goldmedals
@@libra7624 well it was born of target shooting out to long ranges. It’s precision pedigree is well known but for hunting we must know and abide by the limitations of its killing power on big game.
Let's see if he stops bashing it because he finally realized it's an excellent cartridge design...my money is on him continuing to complain about it. Yep, still painting the 6.5 CM in a bad light because he doesn't like how accurate it is, out of the box. Yes, the chambers are, in fact, cut to tighter tolerances. The brass (99% of it) fits those tighter chambers. It is IMPROVED tolerances that have led to more and more accurate factory rifles, and that's cuttin' into his business. If this wasn't true, he'd be complaining about all kinds of brass, not just 6.5 Creedmoor brass. Back some years ago, the Federal GMM 308 brass was dead soft in the head...not safe to reload, with loose pockets after just the factory load was fired. I don't remember Randy bitching about that.
The likelihood is that the chamber and the cartridge cases are both in spec, given the variations in tolerances for both. The chamber is toward the minimum spec, and the brass is toward the maximum.
Yes Randy this is true. But even as a hand loader I have found factory cases out of spec. I once bought 200 new cases of Remington Peters .243 Winchester Brass and although the shoulder angle was fine almost every case needed trimming after sizing and before components are added. Do you recommend a chamber gauge such as a Wilson case gauge to your reloading regiment?
All cases need trimmed when new.
@@jasoncummings1755 Nope!
@@davestrohmeyer-saddleupsho8009 ok, let me rephrase, should be trimmed! I always trim new cases so each one is exactly the same length.
Dave! Love your videos!
Am like watching us die! Thank u Randy & Ms uve done some good raisin
Love your hat.
Interesting. I'm old school and have hunted with big guns. 300 RUM, 338 Win, 375 Ruger... I've been watching many hunting videos lately, and I am surprised how effective the 6.5 CM is on big game, using the correct bullet and shot placement. I'm starting to wonder if I've been brainwashed into using big Magnum cartridges? Yes, I have actual use experience. I kind of reason if a broadhead can kill an elk, so can a 6.5 CM? So despite my never dreaming of hunting with such a dinky cartridge, I'm going to! The 6.5 CM haters out there are actually pushing me towards one. Not to mention that an American made Springfield Waypoint 2020 has me giddy! When I shoulder it in the store, it wants so much to go home with me, and seldom does a rifle speak to me like this one! I can just see taking deer, black bear, and elk with it! I suspect if I do my part, I'll be getting my knife out often. My second choice is a 6.8 Western, in a 20-inch Christensen Arms carbon Ridgeline FFT. It's short action, handy, light, and slings 165 ABLRs. From black timber to mountains, within normal hunting ranges, it seems like a great go-to! I suspect the 6.8 would be the better choice, but the Springfield rifle, specifically in 6.5 CM, has me hooked! I might just need them both! I'm sorry to hear about bad cases, but that fact, along with many other stated online dislikes, does not push me away from 6.5 CM nor Christian Arms.
Have you looked at the 7mm 08.
Interesting. I had this happen with my Tikka and a box of Nosler ballistic tip ammo in 6.5 cm.....out of twenty, I could only chamber ten rounds. Ten! I googled it and found that others had the same problem with Nosler ammo and Tikkas, in the same caliber.
Something else nobody talks about, is the time it takes to stabilize a heavy-for-caliber round. Staying in the 140 range, means your rounds might not be fully stabilized until at least 25-50yds, offering unpredictable performance on game at close ranges. I do use a 6.5 CM for lighter species, but I load in the 120 range for the woods.
I think this is called thinking inside the box.
Isn't it really an issue of tolerances? The old chambers were reamed out slightly larger to give a greater tolerance for the ammo to fit. The ammo had more tolerance to operate in. With the creedmoor, they tightened the chamber tolerance for accuracy purposes which gave less tolerance for the ammo. So theres less room for error with the brass dimensions. So technically, yes, its a problem with the ammo. But its because the chamber tolerances are tighter, which means the chamber is reamed smaller with less tolerance for the ammo to fit. The ammo has to be more precisely manufactured than a 300 win mag for example.
The problem is when it is out of or over specs ammo and brass. Thanks for watching.
Randy, Thank You for your informative programs! I own a Sako A-7 Long Range in 308 win. Recently I experienced tight bolt closures on some rounds in a box of New Federal Terminal Ascent 175gr.ammo. The shot rounds ejected well, but when chambering the round, the bolt was slightly more difficult to close than normal. They seem to shoot fine and they are acurate. My questions are, Can these out of spec tight rounds be potentially Dangerous to myself the shooter? Or can these tight fitting rounds harm to the rifle?? Thanks Again!!
I like my 30 calibers much more. Now off subject.
Are there any bullet manufactures that make a basic do all bullet. Example;
300wm. I use a 210 Accubond LR or 200 gr Sierra SBT bullet for hunting. 1000 yard target I use Berger 215gr hybrid Target. Two totally different powders, primers and bullets.
Are there any bullets that can be you can use for both?
Same load for both. So all l9ading is the same practicing, hunting and shooting LR.
Jeffrey
Interesting had not heard of or ran into this yet on my Uncles Hypemoor.
Sako best production rifles bar none
I love your channel, love the stories, and the knowledge you share. But I just can't hear you very well.
This is Cathy, The Real Gunsmith's Wife: I played the video, and while I had to turn up the volume because of a bit of background from forced air [to cool at that time] I could hear it well enough. Sorry you had difficulty.
Thanks for watching and taking time out to comment.
I like my 270 win because it smokes the 6.5 Needmore and it not a short fat carttidge with finicky cases .
My henry won’t chamber the Sig Venari in 6.5cm. If you push it hard it will stick in the chamber.
Don't worry you will get used to the dentures. Took me awhile but I use fixodent glue on em now holds em right in. I can tell your struggling to talk clear just like i did when I first got em.
I like both lol I want Joseph to jump in. But Randy's right....
I had a tight round one time in the hundreds I have shot. The bolt closed but with much more effort. It would not eject. I lightly tapped it with my cleaning rod, and it came out. It's my fault. I shouldn't have fired it when the bolt was harder than normal. So it can happen and was an out of spec case.
It just sounds like an ammo problem, which can happen with any cartridge. The 6.5 Creedmoor can be touchy, though, especially if the bullet's shank rests inside the freebore, since the cartridge has a very tight freebore spec. Freebore has a minimum diameter only a tenth of a thou over max bullet diameter, so I can see issues if the neck is slightly off center or does not hold the bullet straight (.2645" + .002 freebore dia, and .2644" - .003 bullet dia). The freebore tolerance is + .002", though, so I imagine most chambers are not right at the minimum spec.
Years ago I got a Parker Hale in 30/06 with the Santa Barbara Mauser action. It had been rebarreled. Box of Federal power shok all chambered fine, all of the Highland would not! Once I got into reloading any new brass fired in it resized is fine, ANY brass NOT fired in it resized will not chamber!
It sounds like you're inside a warshing machine. I've had brand new federal brass that won't hold a primer.
Always listen to a man that makes guns for a living, noy writing about them.
I got some Lapua 300 win mag brass in the other day, several cases were bad out of spec on neck thickness,
Rare for Lapua i know
Werry strange for Lapua,they are one of the best.
@goranmalnar5172 yes they are , so far out of 100 , I have found 3 with bad thin necks , been working up load in a Cooper rifle
I can almost hear you
This seems so obvious to me . Can't believe he published that and didn't catch that. Made himself sound like a noob. Chambers don't get tight on 2 rounds and not the rest. So obvious it's an ammo sizing issue 🙄
You are correct! Have run into this same problem hundreds of time having reloaded 60+ years and being a gun collector!
So if a go gauge and a no go gauge reveals a correct chamber the any factory should chamber ! All comments welcome.
Randy thanks for pointing this out although it is painfully obvious ! He is blaming the rifle in part simply because the ammunition manufacturers ( Advertise) much more than Saco . It’s all about Advertising money ( revenue ) to the magazine ! Just like all these new cartridges are all about selling new cartridges ! Sorry the truth is not always pleasant !…….
Hello Mr Randy and hello to your lovely wife to
You get what you pay for. Check all factory ammo dimensions, Common sense...
The knowledge of this man tells it like it is 👍
Joseph isn't saying the chamber is changing. I am sure he knows the problem is the brass
Read the article, he is blaming the chamber for feeding issues! Joseph is full of bs as always, but traying desperately to be an expert😂
Gun writers have been slaves to the big gun/ammo/components companies since forever. Take every article written by authors being paid by advertisers or sponsors with a grain of NaCl.
That's not what he means
I’ve got a micrometer just like that
Was there a micrometer in this vid? I didn't see it. I saw a dial caliper. 😊
I've heard machinists refer to calipers as "guessometers" lol.
Meaning Randy is as usual spot on. Refer to specs and look at tolerance stacks.
Like your hat!
Mr Randy that’s a great hat by the way. 300 Blackout is just a waste of powder in my opinion I know this is about the 6.5 Creedmore but the 300 BO just doesn’t set right with me but we all got our opinions
Can barely hear you.
It’s the 6.5 useless!
Joe did an interview on UA-cam, where he actually said he'd shoot a large buck out from his own kids. Funny as his brother shot that buck out from that lady. Guess those two brothers are more the same then different. (Utah boys, I guess -IDK) He fits real well with Ron.
The sales of 6.5 Creedmore guns and ammo speak for themselves. It's a great all around cartridge that fulfills the needs and requirements of most hunters on all non-dangerous game.
It is no hunting cartridge, it’s a target round and does a damn good job at that
It’s a good cartridge that’s not needed for hunting . The 2506 and 270 are both superior as a hunting cartridge . It does have a place in target shooting for which it was designed for . It’s popular mainly because of marketing hype ! It’s all about selling new rifles !……..
@@thomasdaum1927 you have it backwards, it looks like the public thinks the 25-06 is not needed and the 270 is in decline (usually underloaded) while the 6.5 Creedmore has gained vastly in popularity. Less recoil than the 270 and heavier bullets than the 25-06 can handle so it hit the sweet spot. The Swedes knew what they were doing 120 years ago when they select the 6.5 mm as ideal.
I fell for the numbers/sales volume game. I have two 6.5 Creedmoor hunting rifles that sit in the safe and are no longer used for hunting. I bought two when my son started hunting with me at the age of 12. I thought sharing a common cartridge would make sense. We stopped using them after one season after coming to the conclusion that they didn’t have the killing efficiency that we wanted. He learned to deal with the recoil of a 30-06 and we happily moved on with life. 30-06 has the killing efficiency we prefer. My limited experience with the 6.5 Creedmoor was that any shot other than a “high shoulder” required significant tracking. A perfect “high shoulder” shot still took longer than I like for the game to expire. It wasn’t the hunting round for me. I attribute my experience to the lower velocity. 6.5 PRC and .264 Win Mag kill efficiently for me.
@@robertneal4112 sounds like you need to improve your marksmanship. Going with the 30-06 will not help if you can't put the bullet in the right spot. If the 6.5 Creedmore failed to kill as you state, it would not sell. I have used an even weaker cartridge on deer (243 Win.) and it kills them very efficiently. The 6.5 caliber has been used worldwide for over 120 years with great results, even with rudimentary bullet technology.
Good Lord! This guy ever hear of SAAMI?
Why would you ask a master Gunsmith, if he ever heard of SAAMI? where do you think Chamber meassurements come from when he makes, orders reaming chambers for his customers rifles. Every custom Smith would ream chambers eyeballing the meassurements. Only factory series rifles would be accurate as they are mass produced, and they are not, Some do.
This guy has more knowledge in his little pinky toe than you have, and all your years of shooting guns on earth
Sako and tika heard for sammi and cip, but case manufactors did not.
@@WillyK51Maybe DenverLoveless was referring to Joesph Von Benedict?
Randy your a bully making fun of Joseph
@Denver probably shows up to his local indoor range wearing his 511 tactical pants bragging about his 25 yard 6.5 Creedmoor groups. It shoots an 1/8 inch lol.
Joseph vonbenadick, is this the same guy that tried to shot the leg off a deer someone else had already shot and claimed it was his. Sure let’s take his advice.
It wasn’t Joseph. It was his twin brother Aarom
Wrong person
@@Westerner_ so has Arrom ever heard of Joseph, maybe he should get some of his magazines and read about hunting ethics.
No they are both on the long range wounding of animals
They interchange, in my opinion.
Sorry I comment so much sir but I run into the same problem sometimes I just bump the shoulder back maybe a thousandth
When Randy Shelby speaks you listen!!