Jesus & John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- Dr. Kristin Du Mez is a Christian, yet she is also taking to task America's hard leanings into white Christian Nationalism and authoritarian "God warrior" narratives. Join us for a compelling discussion about her new book.
BOOK LINK: amzn.to/391DTU1
Dr. Du Mez's website: kristindumez.com/
The Founding Fathers would be turning in their graves knowing what is going on today. Separation of Church and State has been disregarded and replaced with Christian Nationalism . The words IN GOD WE TRUST should never have been engraved on the coins.
Indeed. Please bring back "E Pluribus Unum."
@Emblem of Vigilance You obviously aren't very informed concerning the history of the so-called "Founders"...I suggest you start with Thomas Paine=
"What is it the Bible teaches us?--raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us?--to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.
As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book." [Thomas Paine, Letter to William Duane, April 23, 1806]
Thomas Jefferson was a revolutionary progressive and one of the founders of what we understand today as "left-wing politics". America was founded on enlightenment values...a secular LIBERAL Democracy. You're comment is so far away from the factual reality...I consider it comedy.
@@Raydensheraj I agree with you. I usually get hate comments from the Bible believers
@Emblem of Vigilance dude, you dont know what the he your talking about.
You are aware that the constitution IS a liberal document? You are aware that our forefathers were the progressives of their time?
@Emblem of Vigilance wow, way to whine about how far we've left our founders and how they'd be disappointed to saying that this isn't their era anymore.
Way to prove what the op was saying.
As an agnostic living in East Tennessee, surrounded on all sides by racist gun toting evangelicals, all I can say is thank you for this.
Unfortunately, she is completely wrong. The Bible and Christianity is about blind obedience to an Authoritarian figure. What kind of loving God is jealous and demands its servants fear it? What kind of loving God tests its most obedient servants by asking them to sacrifice their child (Abraham) or allow Satan to torture Job and kill his family in order to see if he will remain loyal and obedient? This describes Trump, Republicans and Evangelicals perfectly.... Christo-Fascism
I feel your pain. I'm in Arkansas.
I feel your pain. I’m an evangelical surrounded by racist gun-toting ignoramuses who do not respect their God.
@@janchristian514 Or is it that your god is not their god. But according to Evilangelist like yourself - no body has a right to believe in an Higher Power or god that isn't your definition of god. Freedom of religion means what to you people? How about freedom FROM religion. Wrap your brainwashed head around that. I do not respect YOUR GOD. YOUR GOD does not exist in my universe.
I was living in Kentucky next to the Tennessee border for 10 1/2 years, I just escaped 3 weeks ago. I'm an atheist.
It was hell there for me. Like you, I was surrounded by racist, gun toting, misogynist Trump lovers.
I've always wondered how many evangelicals actually served in Vietnam? My husband is 75, and served as a Hospital Corpsman in the Navy from '63-'69, and in the many years we moved in evangelical circles, we hardly came across any who had actually served in the US Military. Many got deferments and went into teaching, the ministry, missionary work, music directors, and the like. In many cases the evangelical males we knew were big on the military, and Vietnam, but never served in any active duty capacity whatsoever. But neither did John Wayne. He was shooting blanks in Hollywood, while others were dying, or suffering from PTSD. Trump never served either. What we have with many evangelicals are people ignorant of their Bibles, ignorant of history and have a paint-by-numbers binary view of life, which is not only shallow, it has them cheering on American wars from the side-lines, while God leads them in an entirely different direction. This suggests that, above all, evangelicals make for shallow actors in a sub-culture where hypocrisy is served up like prime beef steak on John Wayne plates, and the irony is beyond their grasp.
Well said
John Wayne was considered to old for the draft during ww2 never mind Vietnam
@@jokester3076 no he wasn't. He died look ed it to get out of being drafted
@@jokester3076 True, he never served in Vietnam, and I never implied that he did. But considering that Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart and others, who were not spring chickens, did serve in WWII, often voluntarily, doesn't make Wayne's patriotism any less sincere, just convenient. His film "The Green Berets" is probably the worst, most embarrassing, and laughable attempt at portraying the Vietnam War ever set to celluloid. He shot blanks in the safety of Hollywood sets he worked , as do many Evangelical males shooting off their mouths in the safety of their churches.
Perfect and so true. Great comment.
THIS is how a believer and one who is not convinced have a conversation. Well done, Seth and Dr. Kristin Du Mez!
Well said
I didn't hear one creatard. Ha!
This is what a one on one in person religious conversation usually sounds like. At least this is my experience.
Seth unlike a lot of the imbecile progressive pundits on UA-cam always makes his point with intelligences.
There are also moments that show that the bible cannot be read at face value to be understood. Tme and again apologetic arguments show that god has a serious communication problem.
Yada yada. You have no idea how much Seth had to hold back to not smoke her in her seat. Do you really think that a conversation is better when one person refrains from asking hard and honest questions?
She can deny the misogyny in the Bible all she wants. It's still there.
And it holds about as much validity today as all the other ancient religious tomes and stories...
Of course it's there. But just as Abraham Lincoln was considered extremely progressive in his time and by today's standards would be a total racist, some parts of the Bible are misogynist now, but in their own time, they would have been considered radically feminist.
@@doloreslehmann8628 Really? Please cite some examples of this "radical feminism".
Beyond that, the context of "for its time" makes absolutely no difference in this instance. You are talking about something that is supposed to be the inerrant word of big sky daddy. The time it was written makes no difference as is it what sky daddy's people are suppose to follow to the letter. It doesn't say "In this time you will do X and it this other time you will do Y. Not to mention that this book was pieced together from stories written over hundreds of years each with its own changing world view.
As does violence exist today in many forms. Humanity can be awfully vile and corrupt.
@@Trainwheel_Time "radical feminism"? Is that where YOU are taking this?
I was too much an angsty teen to get to know my grandfather properly before he died. He was a WWII vet who hated John Wayne and was no fan of Reagan, evidently. One cherished quote my family has from him is that he can worship God as well in his own backyard as the church. Held pretty strongly that the church was made by and for man, not God. The more I learn, the more I wish I'd gotten to know him as an adult.
The two of them represented strength, certainty, American ideals, at least in some ways.
@@howardpalys6929 no, I would say they represented the bullshit sold to everyone as the parody of the American life, not the truth at all,
@@doreenorr6435 The reason John Wayne was popular was, that he was seen as THE American hero. bigger than life, tough, ETC, in other words he was seen as what American hero's should be. whether or not that was the truth. the P.R. mattered more.
@@howardpalys6929 Yet he didn't fight in ww2 like other actors did.
@@miggans21012 True but he did a lot to help the war effort in the states.
THIS was really SPOT ON! Keep up the good work. I mean to get that book of hers. This author sounds like a real voice - one that needs to be heard by many more.
Same! I'm adding her book to my already really long to-read list...
Her voice is one among many. They just need more of a spotlight on us.
Yep, the faith of one vs. the faith of another and I like this one better so it has more merit. That's exactly how things work in reality. Except, reality isn't religious, superstitious people who rely on thinking errors and fallacies are. Simple fact: when you have only your interpretation of fairy tales to show someone else's interpretation is wrong, you have no leg to stand on and you're throw away any and all credibility and consideration.
Unfortunately, she is completely wrong. The Bible and Christianity is about blind obedience to an Authoritarian figure. What kind of loving God is jealous and demands its servants fear it? What kind of loving God tests its most obedient servants by asking them to sacrifice their child (Abraham) or allow Satan to torture Job and kill his family in order to see if he will remain loyal and obedient? This describes Trump, Republicans and Evangelicals perfectly.... Christo-Fascism, blind obedience to an Authoritarian figure
Great interview. For someone who lives on the other side of the pond trying to get his head around the alien world of American Christian nationalism, this was so revealing. Thanks very much.
I live in it and it's hard to wrap my head around.
The whole "kickass" mindset is what got us into the war with Iraq.
Nah, it was oil.
The entire mainstream media sold the Iraq war, MSNBC and CNN suppressed anti-war voices until the war was a done deal and their owners like GE cashed their cheques.
@@irielion3748 - actually, yes however, it was predicated and rationalized by the whole "kickass" mindset.
Balance, is needed Carter was too much of a wimp and world leaders walked all over him. Reagan called the Soviet Union the evil empire and over spent on the military, again balance.
@@irielion3748 You must have forgotten the hyper frenzy to go to war; how anyone who opposed going to war after 9-11 was a "traitor." (Obama and Barbara Lee in Congress). Look up how the enlistments went up, too. It was pure, Gungho, John Wayne-ism finishing the job that "Daddy Bush" didn't finish. The public thought waiving tiny flags, and tying yellow ribbons meant we were supporting the troops. then GW closed more VA Hospitals than any other President. Lots of huge war contracts and everyone is fine when it's someone else's son or daughter dying in a pointless war.
Yes race has a lot to do with Evangelical Christianity. And I never was a fan of John Wayne. Always cheer the indigenous people on.
Same. He was openly racist as shit
I'm very appreciative of Costner's Dances With Wolves... he did a ton to make the American Indian (or Amerindian) into real people in the minds of whites. A wonderful counterpoint to John Wayne.
John Wayne was popular because he knew how to appeal to the people, some call it cult of personality, others call it charisma,, what ever it was he did it well.
Not to mention the dozens of horses that died in his films
@@howardpalys6929 I call it white American nationalism.
And this is exactly why Reagan was popular too because the evangelicals were embracing the Republican party
It wasn't just Trump. I used to cringe at the Christian nationalism displayed by W Bush and the repukelicans of the last 25 years
Don’t know how old you are but this BS started in 1980 w Raygun. I know - I was there ✌️
well at least Bush believed in that nonsense, and went to church once or twice, unlike Trump who has never been to church and is literally the most anti-christ personality
@@raidermaxx2324 did you notice on that BS walk to the church Rump moron that he is, held the Bible upside down?! I’d laugh but it’s just depressing ASF. ✌️
The Vietnam war protests were triggered by the draft. There was no serious protest of the forever Iraq/Afghanistan war because the military is all volunteer. No one seriously had a frog in the pond.
My Granddad was a Methodist preacher and so was my dad but he turned Baptist in the 1950's because the Methodist church was too liberal for him. One time when I was about 8 he was pastor of a Baptist church in rural south Alabama and there was a disagreement that led to knock down drag out fights in the parking lot, some of which started inside the church, there was even talk about bringing guns out. I remember my dad telling me and my older brother "If you have to shoot somebody aim for their balls." I WAS 8 YEARS OLD! Can you guess what the disagreement was? No? Well, half the people wanted the piano on the platform and the other half wanted it down on the floor with the pews. These people were of the same CONGREGATION. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue from differing DENOMANATIONS if a theocratic government were put in place in the U.S.? It wouldn't be long before they were at each others throats. Especially in today's environment.
WTF? My gosh, man. That escalated quickly. And damn, that's horrible that he would aim for the balls over a disagreement over where to place a fucking piano.
Wow this come out since i started this channel TODAY, because ive been dealing with these people and when i point out how bad they are, i get reported.
Only 13 mins listening. Before the comments go negative. Hope you all have a great day 😄
She is a genius at skirting difficult issues. Her rationalization of biblical subjugation of women is stellar.
"We have to understand the context" is a magnificent dodge, whether it's for the religious or for the "constitutional originalists" who have to reconcile things like slavery and not allowing women to vote with the image of infallible founders.
Your spot on about her
That is just what they do they will flip and jump through hoops and move the goal posts and bend over backwards to justify and make excuses for their beliefs no matter how much they see stuff against religion just bcuz it makes them feel better
@@stanblack5073 You're not 'your'
It has to be difficult to be a gender studies professor at a Christian university and still defend the bible.
you're so spot on.
Thank God I have some time to watch these videos again...😂
I was really excited to hear this conversation but find myself disappointed by yet another apologist trying to argue that their book says something it doesn't and doesn't really mean what it says.
yeah, it's always the same cherry picking excuses.
I find Pagels to be revealing upfront but always seems to reel it back. Your corporate kind of Bible Scholar. She sure seems slippery.
Agreed.
She cherry picks the parts of the bible that support her views. Just like the christo-fascists do to support theirs.
That Bible is a handy book.
Funny the ad at the begining of this video was for bible studies.
Propaganda used to quell the free thinkers ,every breath that goes against the machines intention must be silenced 🔕 🤫
UA-cam's way of taking money from Atheist content creators. Every time you skip an ad, they lose revenue.
I watch a lot of atheist influencer videos. Ads for Pure Flix and Prager U are the norm. It’s all part of the algorithm. Wait out the countdown and skip the ad. If you want to support a new channel, let the ad run.
@@TenMinuteTrips Just found if comical you tube algorithm advertising to me religious content when i clearly only watch atheism content. Maybe they know i will skip so the religious ad wont make money on porpoise .
I was rooting for the conversation to not get awkward, from the get-go. But, it's fairly obvious she's not extending her keen analysis of our society to the bible as well. Like so many in her position, she suggests the bible is just being misinterpretted, even mistranslated. No, but what Jesus meant is women are the equals of men, etc. It's embarassing to see such a seemingly critical thinker fold at such a basic question about the content of the bible.
I should add. Seth dodged this early, budding disagreement expertly and steered the interview into something which could remain agreeable.
I totally agree. Dr Du Mez seems like a very nice person but I hate it when liberal Christians try to make the Bible nicer than it actually is. Like you said, they claim right-wingers have "misinterpreted" it but a plain reading of the Bible shows it to be quite misogynistic and anti-gay. You really can't sugar coat it. Why can't they just said the Bible says some really horrible shit and that we don't believe that anymore instead of saying, "That's not a correct interpretation."
I get you, but Jesus really was an advocate for women at his time. It was the early church that moved away from his position quickly, already within the Bible.
@@doloreslehmann8628 And you know this because? Divine revelation?
It's her actual job as a "biblical historian", which is an Orwellian term. Her job is to bend religious history around modern social values, explain away the bad stuff, and make the whole task sound sensible.
He wanted to test the waters, saw what was coming and jumped ship, lol.
Thanks for cutting her apologetics short on the subject of male dominance in Christian scripture! I almost cut out!
this was a fun listen
What about Isaiah 2:4 “they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
Wow. Nice find. Perhaps we should make mass flyers to put this passage on posts and doors of all churches.
Yeah can see that going down well with the military industrial mob I reckon, lol
The term 'Christian Feminism' should not exist. The Bible is pretty clear on the role of women, and it's not about being equal to men, to say the least.
You can develop any ideology with the bible as the source. You can own sex slaves (gid specifically orders israelites to keep virgin girls but kill the rest of the population of a foreign nation) or you can love your neighbours as yourself. Its really a terrible source for morality
You have female ministers and woman pastors even among the “ultra-conservative” evangelicals, most Christians (including the fundies) cherry pick the bible.
@@jokester3076 The Bible is very clear that women are supposed to be silent in church and not teach. 1 Timothy 2:12 - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.
@ThxGod It'sOver You can take your preaching somewhere else. Who are you trying to convert? Using Bible verses to convince people who do not accept the Bible as evidence is pointless.
The Bible is not describing actual events, there is no (abrahamic) god, there is no satan, no heaven, no hell, and once you realize that, you can finally live your life without mental restrains.
@ThxGod It'sOver THE LIZARD PEOPLE ARE PUTTING CHEMICALS IN THE WATER TO TURN THE FROGS GAY
This is so off topic - but - Seths voice. I want Seth to do sleephypnosis-audios so I can fall asleep to his voice. How can a voice be so relaxing and sexy at the same time 🙈😍
Seth certainly has a voice built for “easy listening”
I would listen to Seth reading my grocery list, or the phone book. And I'm certain it would be one of the most relaxing things I've ever listened to.
Attracted to the alpha. The big bravado.
Interesting that the “Christian” didn’t learn the lessons of the David and Goliath.
I'm curious about the books that were left out of the Bible. more specifically the one about Mary Magdalene not being a horror and was actually a head profit and possibly jesus's wife. the very fact the books were left out I find extremely disturbing. even more disturbing is the fact that there are lots of people that know this and still don't care. edit to add I'm just going to leave that misspelled word so UA-cam doesn't remove my comment.
Goliath basically brought fists to a gunfight, evengelicals probably take away a different message from that story.
Like David wasn't brutal and violent? David was a war mongering, mass murdering prick. He even murdered 200 Philistine men just so he could hack off their foreskins.
@@BigHeretic The jews lost against Persia, Assyria, the Greeks, the Romans so David is their fantasy character that won at least against the one Philistines.
Very interesting conversation. Love to see an educated theist have a conversation without resorting to biblical claims of superiority over us heathens. More please!
When I hear the titles of biblical scholar or Dr. of Divinity I can respect their dedication but always feel they've wasted their time.
Scholars of languages and cultural myths go in to their research knowing it's myth. Most biblical scholars do not.
"President MTG" You don't know how frightening that sounds to me. Ugh.
Let's all hope that nightmare never comes to pass.
Andrew has a strong beautiful eloquent voice. He was definitely born to be a speaker.
To which 'Andrew' are you referring?
John Wayne Gacy loved John Wayne too.
The one thing that shocked me the most about the last four years was seeing venues full of thousands of Evangelicals performing the Two Minutes Hate against whoever that second rate Screwtape wanted them to. Trump had a rally in Colorado Springs, Evangelical country, with all the Evangelical leading lights coming along with him, including Pence, and at that rally it was Greta Thunberg's turn, and I was just nauseated. If he could get Evangalicals hating on her, he could get them to hate on anybody.
All they can do is Foster hate, as they are all hateful people (TV evangelist preachers) the lowest of the low, yet masses of people send them money? And pyramid schemes are outlawed? Yet these horrors don't even get taxed on the money they con
Seth Andrews a true professional and humanist who can have a conversation with anyone… the world needs more people like him.
It's been more than 40 years since I was Christian but even then I heard a preacher claiming that Jesus was a big strong man's man. Being a carpenter he would have to be muscular etc. Even as a kid I thought "where did he get this idea". The Jesus of the bible didn't come off as being all that macho to me. But then again thinking like that made me drift away from believing what I was told.
Thank you both for a very enjoyable, edifying and respectful discussion!
Seth is the crown jewel of the atheist movement.
... without doubt!
I would say Richard Dawkins or the late Christopher Hitchens were the crown jewel of atheism, but Seth and a few others are part of the crown.
Alex O'Connor gets my vote. He is barely beginning and has many more years ahead of him.
@@ASMRyouVEGANyet Alex is good, a little young but he has a lot of potential.
She seems to dance around blatant issues. Very wishy-washy in my opinion.
The parallels between believing in an omnipotent invisible GOD, and trust in an unseen abstract national power is chilling. Too many people prefer to be led rather than to think for themselves. I always thought that unfettered greed would be the demise of humanity but, it turns out that willful naiveté will be its strange bedfellow.
What a wonderful conversation. I'd like to hear more from Dr Du Mez.
I don't think that our attraction to the "strong alpha Male" that's not how primates or even most mammals do it at all. The whole original idea of the alpha Male was incorrect and taken completely out of context according to the scientist and author who invented the term. There's no such thing as an alpha wolf. We just got it wrong. It's just a family. What we think of the alpha Male is often just dad, or grandpa. Of course the alpha female is mom, or grandma. It's just a family that breaks down exactly as you would expect a family too.
A troop of primates breaks down in a different way. Often the leader of the troop isn't the most physically powerful Male. It's the member of the troop that inspires cooperation. The one that makes the troop happiest. Through things like sharing food and grooming. We have taken the worst aspects of our relationships and projected them onto the natural world for our own justifications. Religion has been the single actor most responsible for our reinforcement and justification of these harmful attitudes. Instead of allowing us to grow and evolve. Religion keeps these bad habits and traditions alive through fear, hatred, and shame.
Ever hear the song John Wayne Was a Nazi by the Stains?
Ohhh come now.
And Burt Lancaster was a Hun (I happen to know).
I thought that was an MDC song
@@bowlsallbroken yeah, M.D.C did that song.
Seth, it's nice to hear your wonderful voice again! I've been away from your channel for too long. Great episode, my brother!
Just bought Jesus and John Wayne. Thoroughly appreciated this conversation. Thank you!
My dad used to call generic TP "John Wayne TP" cuz it was rough and tough and didn't take no crap off of anyone
Yes!! 8th 😂
That made me laugh. Thanks! 🌟
@ThxGod It'sOver for someone with so much to say weres your videos? Btw what's the point of listening bible verses when your the only one here who believes them? As if your "wholy fable" makes you think you have authority or something.
This is why I walked away from Christianity and religion altogether. And today's evangelicals convinced me to stay away from Christianity even more.
Damn, great job on this topic. Buying the book today. This explains so much. I’ve never given much deep thought on the masculine aspect of Christianity but this is fucking spot on. This is why they push the shit they push. Love learning about the things I did not know, I did not know. Thanks Seth! You’re a tremendously HUGE asset on team skepticism! Keep doing what you do best!!!
John Wayne is one of the most overrated Hollywood actors. He could only play one character, and that was John Wayne.
The only John Wayne movie I like is Stagecoach and that's more because of the excellent stunt work.
He truly was a one-note wonder. In every movie he played the exact same character! His acting ability ranged from A to B. Sort of like Chuck Norris.
he was better than most of the so called actors of today's Hollywood. granted that's a very low bar but still the current crop is terrible.
He was more talented than that hack Alec Baldwin.
@@howardpalys6929 he was a pretty shit actor all round and basically a caracature of what was an American male
This woman seems nice and intelligent but as soon as Seth criticized the bible she went off on some bull crap "translation and context" stuff and I have to admit I lost a bit of respect for her there.
Whenever blind believers get pointed to problematic or confusing passages in the Bible, they whip out the "translation, culture, context" talisman to precede their failure to address the plain text in the passage. That talisman. Is not as effective as they think it is.
@@fredericdouglas3574 Or the tired "Jesus changed that" even when that character said exactly the opposite. They refuse to understand that all their protagonists were Jews, not Christians since they didn't exist yet, they weren't going to randomly abandon all the rules of their faith or tell anyone to stop following them. But thats how religion works, it forces itself on everyone and if they don't like it they either die or find a way to combine their traditions into it, then later generations believe all of it was always one thing, never realizing (or questioning) the beginnings were just ignorant tribals trying to find comfort from their fears of everything around them.
A more honest aproach for a Liberal Christian would be that of Dale Martin: accept the secular Biblical scholars hypothesis that half of Paul's letters in the Bible are pseudoepigraphical, precisely those with the more misogynistic and authoritarian takes.
@@Ucedo95 How is that more honest? So you think somehow its better to say "well it wasn't really one of 'our' guys who wrote it so its okay that they don't quite fit our idea of proper behavior". You'd have to do that with almost the entire book then, though that also assumes they have read the entire book.
The more honest approach is to admit it was all written in a time that had socially acceptable behaviors that we don't agree with today because we have learned better. But that only goes so far as you then have to still pretend that those same people were enlightened enough to create your holy text book.
There is no way to fully avoid some kind of bias, contradictions, or cherry picking if you want to live in a modern society and still believe ancient myths.
@@JohnA... It actually takes courage for a Protestant Christian to admit that a very important fraction of the New Testament is pseudoepigraphical, even written in the 2nd century.
My dad, who was a B-24 pilot along side Jimmy Stewart in WWII..noticed something about the "warrior" John Wayne (and Ronald Reagan too).
While he (my dad) was dodging flack over the skies of Europe, the "warrior christ's" were dodging bar tabs at the Brown Derby.
Much later, I read about how John Ford the director, used to throw a lot of shade the Dukes way during movie shoots. Because even John Ford had gone over to Europe and risked his life filming war footage for the Army.
John "green beret" Wayne, warmonger "warrior christ"...Top General in the Yellow Elephant" brigade.
Always, always, when I think of the fracturing of the United States, I go first to economic inequality. Therefore, I am compelled to think of the Evangelical movement as the sledgehammer rather than the one swinging the hammer. In one respect, it doesn't matter much, since a huge segment of the wealthiest class of people in the United States are indeed actual Evangelicals. But to see great numbers of people slavishly, cultishly, and irrationally serving the interests of the rich to their own detriment touting their rejection of reality as a virtue is alarming.
The hierarchy of rich over poor is part of many evangelical denominations. It's called the prosperity gospel.
This man has an amazing voice 😍
Thank you so much for this episode. I ordered this book on Amazon and it is fascinating and hits the nail on the head so well!
Dammit Seth, I can't keep up with the books you rep. I just finished 10 things Christians wish Jesus hadn't said and here you are again :)
Excellent interview, EXCELLENT insight in an historical context!!! Thank you, Seth, for this interview with Dr. Kristen.
Best John Wayne movie for me was “The Quiet Man.” He played a different kind of hero in that movie. It was still a bit misogynistic yet I loved it as a kid. My dad was a macho kind of guy while my mom was a mousy type yet she still let him know in her own way when he was too cocky. My mom hated Jane Russell and those women who told her to listen to their husbands like they were god. At the same time she disliked feminists. As an atheist I am so glad this lady is teaching Christians.
You are pretty much right until the book of revelations I'm not a Christian but just saying
Thank you for this, Seth. I enjoyed the discussion and I hope to see more of Dr. Du Mez in the future.
What a tremendous interview!!! Thank you for introducing us to this brilliant author! I just ordered her book.
I find it weird that some people can’t differentiate the actor from the roll.You can see it with John Wayne,Clint Eastwood,Chuck Norris, and so on.It almost is a strange type of worship.
I find it weird that so often these are the same people who howl "stick to acting!" whenever a liberal celebrity speaks his mind.
Or a strange type of hate. The actor who played Anakin Skywalker got hate and hate mail for years for his role and the writing and directing which... that's not his fault. Like at all. The actor did a good job with what he had to work with.
To me it is a fascinating phenomenon.
Right. But you have to admit that especially actors like the ones you mention are extremelly typecasted and almost don't play anything else. So the actor becomes synonyme to the type of role he plays. It doesn't happen that often with more diverse actors. Or have you witnessed the same phenomenon with, say, Geoffrey Rush or Alan Rickman?
Actors quite often play themselves and people in real life are playing a role.
Its almost like people don't actually pay attention beyond the surface level and make assumptions about everything so it fits their world views. Certainly some actors have similar mindsets to their roles, but assuming they all do you would have to believe that the actors that play in horror movies also are those horrible characters in their real life. Take the movie for what it is, take the person for what they do outside of it if you care so much about actors... but hey I guess I'm pretending that people are rational enough to act like more than just clothed apes most of the time.
Long ago, a Buddhist coined the term Spiritual Materialism. That is apt for many right wing, white evangelists.
What a great conversation! Thank you!
This was a very good conversation.
Phillis Schlafly's son Andrew started a wiki because wikipedia was "liberally biased" and so he decided to have a "non-biased" wiki. The result was "conservapedia" - it's shockingly hilarious and triggers a morbid fascination. It's almost impossible to become a moderator - because when you are (or try to be) as nuts as them they think you are a poe. 🤣
It's great and led to saner people starting rationalwiki.
I once sent my very conservative Christian brother a link to a video by Sam Harris. He emailed me back that he'd looked Harris up on his go-to source for information, Conservapedia, and felt no need to watch the video because he now knew what a supposedly awful person Sam was.
LOL I now know what I will be reading for entertainment when I am done with this book!
I really lost interest in what she had to say after she said that the Bible is not degrading to women. She said that you have to research the interpretation to see that it is not. The way that I see it, you can interpret the Bible to say almost anything that you want.
It's compartmentalization. She's not stupid, she just has a blindspot.
You missed a good discussion.
Well women just play absolutely no role in Judaism and Jesus was a jew. So surprise in the fanfiction about Jesus only males have a role.
@26:00 Trump literally recently just said, "Nobody has done more for Christianity or for evangelicals or for religion itself than I have." And evangelicals embraced this sentence instead of pausing and reflecting and refusing.
Dr Du Mez is awesome. Thank you for this brilliant discussion.
I like this interview, but when she says that "the Bible is actually talking about mutual submission" that is absolute BS. Maybe if you think god actually wrote the Bible, but the actual fact of the matter is that people wrote the Bible, and there's 0 chance that those people could even understand the concept of mutual submission.
Lol For real, how people believe this bs is beyond me! I believed some of it as a child up until the age 32 when I finally read the damn thing to my horror! If only I had never read it, I like being awake to the bs of religion but it sad seeing how they have corrupt the world with this crap
@@memyself2630 You are fortunate though, far too many can't get past their intrinsic bias about their religion to see the issues even when they bother to read their own texts. I have spoken with my fair share of people who claim to have great belief but typically have far less knowledge of the texts than I as an Atheist have, yet even after pointing out many things they have no knowledge of they still believe they know far more about it than I do simply because they believe its real. Most aren't easily capable of seeing their bias, they can't understand the contradictions, and refuse to be introspective about what they claim to believe let alone openly being able to question it.
I love the saying "the best way to make an Atheist is to have someone read their own religious texts", but unfortunately you have to have a person who is openly honest with themselves to start.
@@JohnA... I understand the benefits of being awake to the bs but being both black and female trying to talk to anyone religious about religion has proved disastrous! I’m either dumb, female or both! It’s extra fun talking with my dad who believes I shouldn’t even be talking to him about the Bible! lol It’s both a blessing and curse I guess🙃
The main hope I have left are for men like yourself who can be more vocal and our youth who hopefully won’t be brainwashed!
@@JohnA... Oh and the ridiculousness of atheists knowing the Bible better the most Christian is just sad but true! I like to ask them who King James is and why is he on your Bible! Their blank stares, my only joy in this joke on society lmbo
@@memyself2630 Its actually very disappointing to me how religious the black and hispanic populations in this country are, the ultimate Stockholm syndrome, a tool/excuse used to against them in this area of the world (much more complicated topic globally with all that historical garbage) then to be believed more strongly than the very people who used it against them in many cases.
I recently moved to an area where my lack of pigment makes me stand out quite a bit, and I try to be polite by just saying "not religious" to not scare the old ladies (or get burned at the stake), I've already had some of the old ladies that I am teaching computers to ask if I worship lucifer because the automatic go to for religious people when you say "I'm not religious" is to think your are the opposite of their religion not that you just don't believe religious stuff.
And yes, one of them I've had a few conversations with about this stuff, and shown many times that I know more about the bible than she does, yet she keeps thinking that I just don't know enough about it. Recently we got into the "he can't show himself because it would cancel free will" discussion, to have her not understand that only a few seconds later her saying "I'm praying for him to show himself to you" is exactly the thing she was just saying he couldn't do because it wouldn't negate free will.
But thats all what indoctrination does to the average person, most don't question all too much, and of course add to that the common religion trend to demand that you don't question things. I guess we can only try to be positive influences in the world, show that not being religious doesn't make you a bad person, encourage education and reason, and know that even though it happening slowly that its slowly starting to fade away... though we do need to get out of the rest of the superstitious thinking also.
Best of luck to you, I don't have the same of course, but I know what its like having religious family that won't stop pushing it and can't discuss such things. I'm only fortunate that I can easily not deal with my family and didn't have any outright violence as some deal with.
Wow !!!!!! Thank you both.... I have wondered for years why I did not fit into "Church"...I really felt a misfit as a female...... I could not stomach all the "men" and all the double standards pushed onto women.... a lot of women in the church are frustrated and angry... and they are put down for that....... thank you again
Excellent interview! ThankYou Seth…
Great interview… thanks so much …. Very informative, thoughtful 🌹💫
John Wayne wasn't that innocent cowboy that you think. He had a ww2 deferment, on purpose, because of his kids and family, Then stay in the USA, doing movies, drinking and smoking and never took care of them. He was also pro Vietnam War, that's why he made the green berets movie. And a very right wing extremists, Against anything associated with socialism and communism. He made a movie persecuting anyone that held Marxist believes. In the movie He was an FBI agent persecuting every body, Working for macartism. And later there were found very racist comments coming from him, against black people...the white hat cowboy for sure...
If the Bible is the inspired word of some god, then why is it so easily and often "misinterpreted"? One would think an all knowledgeable, supernatural entity could and would inspire a crystal clear manifesto.
Yes, superb interview. Both of you exemplify how to conduct a dialogue. You really ought to do Part 2 though on your theological differences.
Great guest. Very interesting conversation/interview.
*"If the liberals get their way, before you know it, the US will have some sort of stated separation between church and state!"*
-The Onion
Only Cancer kicked his ass.
The more listen to both of you is why this country is going down the tubes.
Well he is a atheist but is from a certain tribe just like her who is anti white and hates Christ
Really interesting interview. Thanks. Dr Du Mez has some really good points and I feel like I've learned something.
I took my cousin to visit potential colleges. As a former Jehovah's Witness, I saw more cult like behavior on these campuses since I left the cult of my birth.
Like what?
I can't think about John Wayne without thinking about Dalton Trumbo. John Wayne needs an asterisk next to his name.
I bought your book, and am glad to hear from you!
Brava! This was one of the best conversations I have listened to in a long time. I hope some of the threads . . . the topics introduced but not followed because they could not be dealt with in a short interview . . . will be the subject of forthcoming discussion between Dr. Du Mez and Seth Andrews.
Religion- how to keep people small
@ThxGod It'sOver thank you for proving my point.
@ThxGod It'sOver and …
@ThxGod It'sOver sticks and stones darling considering source
It boggles my mind that a historian can be fooled by a creator myth.
The 60’s and 70’s remind me a bit of what’s going on now.
Excellent interview.
Fascinating interview! Definitely have Dr. Du Mez back again - even just to explore the role of women in Christianity
She is exactly correct that neither Trump nor the GOP are using evangelical christian nationalists. The opposite is the case. The christian nationalists and oligarchs are using the Republican party.
It's reciprocative.
Yep...they're using each other.💯
Call it Christofascist! Coined by Chris Hedges!
I loved the closing at the end. Made my eyes water a little. Good words.
George Lakoff's discussion on the linguist frames of the "strict father" and "nurturant parent" provides another lense to understand the historical perspective provided in Dr. Du Mez's book.
John wayne was objectively bad for our country
May I ask you, since I'm interested, is there more other reasons that lead you to what you're saying or it's just based on the subject of this video?
I kind of doubt it there would have been someone else they could glom their distorted morality etc onto and he wasn’t the worst character they could have picked.
Different but similar to the damage done and being done by Disney.
The same people who love John Wayne end up liking Trump. I truly don’t get thinking either of them are worth worship.
But.. but ... but he won wwII and vietnam all by himself?
Evangelical Christian Zionism
An interesting dialogue. Thanks to both of you.
Great interview!
I really feel like she's reaching here and trying to defend Christianity like "its not as bad as you think" but it is as bad as we think. And it IS misogynistic, no matter what context you put it in. She's just cherry picking, like all other Christians do. Come off it already this is BS.
Get into science. Leave the bible where it belongs, way deep in the past.
Mum had a photo of jesus on the wall he looked like a perfect skin hippie surfer with big blue eyes and shoulder length hair. Dad said " thats the american jesus syndrome right there"......
Wow! This was a great interview. More like this, please.