Until you turn around and the cameras cant see you... its a bummer oculus users have to buy a 3rd camera to achieve proper room scale, and the amount of USB ports being used up by the cameras is a bit of a pain too, but oh well im just glad Oculus users can finally come play some of the awesome roomscale games the Vive owners have been playing
You can do 360 with 2 sensor. You need the 3rd for room scale and honestly one more sensor isnt much when you already have a vr capable pc and a headset
@@smartguyjaja You don't really need a 3rd for roomscale. Many have a successful rs setup with 2, it depends on the persons layout. They may need a 3rd to cover a blind spot.
Okay now you need to try a three or four camera setup and see what the limitations are there. Given what you get with two cameras, using three or four cameras would make a space that will be incredibly huge.
Guys, can I use a few seconds of your video in my oculus review please? With links to you and name of your channel and video on the screen? I don't have enough space, and you have a good demo of tracking quality.
I recently picked up the Rift and tried out the experimental 360 with the 2 sensors in corner to corner, some times it drops tracking, some times my head gets stuck and some times things get odd, tho it isn't to bad for $400... tho I wish I knew someone close by with the Vive so I could try it out and compare. Tho there are videos out there it would be nice to try it in person, I might mess with my sensors to bring them a little lower on my wall to see if that fixes the tracking issues, I have 2 sensors at this time and my god the wires!
Does he realize he can just make an outline for his play area and it will fill it in automatically? At least that's what i did when i got my Rift today. 😊
SuckeroftheYear I put my 3 sensors kitty-corner across from eachother in my 3.0mx3.5m room. Got terrible tracking, yet my vive tracks perfectly. No LED interference either.
your mainboard/driversor sensors suck...i put them in my 20 square meter room in 3m distance and got perfect tracking not compareable to the stutter tracking with 2 lighhouse fail units...greez
With two frontfacing cameras, sure. With 2 cameras across from each other, full 360 with the same space. 3 cameras, full roomscale. 4 is just a buffer really.
One of the issues with full room scale will be that each camera requires USB connection to your computer. Also the more cameras you have the heavier the back end processing will be. Simple light latency testing with the vive sensors is nearly instantaneous. It uses simple trig equations to process the time it takes each sensor on the controllers/headset to be pinged and then triangulate from there to resolve an XYZ position coordinate as well as an orientation in XYZ. This type of computation could be handled at nearly zero overhead. Also there aren't any visual optics that inherently degrade the visual accuracy of the information coming in to be tracked. In my line of work ive done allot of camera tracking for film and commercials. I know its not exactly the same but they both require allot of optical accuracy and processing to achieve a decent track. My first experience in VR was on the DK1(no position tracking) which is the same thing as the Oculus gear VR. My second was on the DK2 (optical positional tracking) which finally crossed that threshold into convincing presence in VR . Once I saw the vive lighthouse tech I instantly knew it was not subject to the issues that were hard to overcome with optical tracking. This is what prompted me to switch. Knowing how this tech works is key to understanding which will work better on a technical level. But as I have seen in this demo for allot of scenarios the two camera setup will due fine for simple games that put you facing a stage. Test them both thoroughly before buying. PS i have mad respect for all the technicians and scientist involved in making my childhood dreams of VR a reality. I will let the final product be the judge though. And this is just my first had impressions of each system and the technology they use to achieve the same task.
Joe shmoe OK perhaps the resolution on the sensors are lower than I thought and perhaps they have a way of optimizing the stream for optical tracking. that still doesnt change the inherent issues with optics and resolution at a distance. also the cone angle seems to be less than that of the light house system. how do you feel this compares, I.e limitations for both techniques. Is the oculus not limited? from this demo I see a lack of 360°. I have seen a demo on "tested" where they setup room scale by placing the cameras diagonally. the issues they run into like controllers sticking and jittering seem to be caused by none other than the limitations in the tracking. My main message here is the limitation of sending multiple video streams to a computer and having said computer process them all the while it is also trying to keep up with solid 90 fps. perhaps you know better than me on this. what do you own? do you have the rift/ vive.
Thanks for your feedback with your experience with the oculus touch. Being the same price point after setting up touch, to me they should have gone the same or similar rout as the vive with tracking. But I understand they went far down the rabbit hole already and decided to push the tech as far as they can. With your setup you are getting really good results as far as accuracy. I know it sounds nitpicky but im curious to see how things fare for a large number of customers. Of course its hard for me to compare my vive setup to someones Oculus touch setup. I will have to wait and see when one of my friends picks up touch so I can give it proper hands on critisism. Do you have any issues with occlusion? How about dead spots within your play area? I have been very impressed with the lighthouse tracking in reguards to this and im curious to hear what you have observed.
The beard is really great, Ben. People need to know when their beards are on point, and it's not said enough. Keep it up! Oh by the way, thanks for the content. I was hoping someone would make this exact video. I'm also curious about the vertical limits. Rifters are going to LOVE Climbey.
I have both cameras on the desktop at chest height, my play space is 1 meter away from the cameras and I get full tracking floor to roof. The FOV is about 90 on the cameras so you 'draw' a 45 degree line up and down from the camera to see where it will track.
Is the constant jittering of the white circle (representing the Touch controller) a problem with the video / recording? Or are there some technical problems with your controllers? Low battery perhaps? The test itself is a bit pointless, because it only tests the optimal mid-height level. But of course room-scale means from *floor to ceiling.* The cameras will have a hard time to track the whole space of the shown play-area. So this test is a bit of a waste of time.
Excellent, and very helpful, demonstration. Can you share a bit about the physical dimensions of the rectangles you created there? Looked to be around 8x6 for real world, maybe a little larger?
Everyone doing testing is demostrating that direct opposite position is the best setup to maximize your playing space. Also rotating 30º down (putting cameras on ceiling and pointing to floor) improve a lot the 2 camera setup. Can you test it too?
when you face the opposite and your body blocked the controller, will it lost tracking? because on this demo, you're only showing 180 degree facing the front camera/monitor.
Why not test it with a game that requires 360 degrees of movement. I was watching Nathie's live steam of Superhot VR earlier. He was losing tracking often when he knelled down.
haven't seen his video, but I'm guessing he had the sensors on the table so it blocked the view when he got low. if so, it´s easily solved with having the sensors up high on the wall looking down
Its just a ridiculous bit of advice. move the cameras forward a little so your desk is not occluding if you must have your play space so close to the desk...
Hey All, for interest - I have a 2.5x 3mt room, one sensor in Cnr facing room cntr, the other NOT in the opposite cnr but inbetween cnrs on opposite wall (perpendicular to wall) facing room cntr. Works heaps better. 5mt active usb 3 needed obviously
Interesting video, thank you. It wouldn't make much sense to cover the front with plastic and more IR led's though. Then you wouldn't be able to point and stretch out your fingers, which is quite an important feature. Or did I misunderstand your point?
He means a full ring instead of half circle like on a cutlass sword. (pirates sword) The full ring like the Vives full circle would give it better tracking. Not sure what Oculus was thinking.
Great test! I know the parallell cameras is how Oculus recommends the setup but I would like to see some alternative setups like further apart and angled inwards. With cameras higher and possibly lower which might give more angle on the tracked ring of the controller.
VinceG ye me too even though I don't own one but the vive sounds much better. Such as even better tracking, from what Ive seen you can spin the controller like tis guy did and will never lose tracking, plus they are working on making the vive wireless as we speak.
The wireless solutions that are sold for the Vive work with the Oculus as well. Also the controllers apparently track better in multiple situations better than the Vives. And they are a lot more comfortable. Plus, they have joysticks, which is the biggest plus for me.
These are indeed better than the current gen vive controllers, and the joysticks are definitely a nice feature. however after using the vive touchpads for a while, you end up really not missing the joysticks. and the fact that you don't have to hold the next gen vive controllers is a great feature that's not on the Rift.
Oculus touch (like the rift) seems better designed and more polished, however the tracking solution is less suited for roomscale/360 degrees. You also need three cameras and the cables are too short
this is crap.. so glad I bought a Vive.. When playing games I'm constantly turning 360 and never even know what direction I'm facing. How can you tell your facing towards the camera with your VR on??? Try again Oculus.
Something a lot of people aren't aware of is that you can stick 2 cameras towards each other from either side which allows for 360 turning, no third camera needed. You're still massively limited on playspace however, which is why 3-4 cameras is recommended if you want movement with 360 turning.
bullshit lol. Ideally we want wireless yes but i would much prefer wired with much higher resolution. We cant have both yet due to technological limitations. But a large playspace with a wire is no worse than a small playspace and a wire...i dont get your logic at all. Oculus just needs a much longer wire like the Vive
Chris Thorpe you're misunderstanding. I was referring to the room sensors. They are why a giant room is required. By putting those into the headset (like hololens) you could get full immersion without a giant square and wires run all over the room.
Im talking about showing us how good the tracking is from inside the headset.. not on that little map you got there m8.. we cant see if the controllers are juttering or anything when you swing your arms violently and says its quite impressive... just because its green does not mean there is no issues at all.. if the tracking is not 100% it is not an option.. If you get my drift? Have a good day :)
Lumidandk I see, so you are speaking of the in-game view from the headset. I can tell you that what you see on the screen is a more accurate representation of tracking than what your eyes can see. You should see perfect mm precision tracking. I have a 3.0m x 3.5m space I use for the Vive and Rift. I have three cameras for the rift and place them in in a triangular pattern from eachother about 7 feet up against the walls. I see some small jitters and tracking issues that last for split seconds, but everything has been mostly good so far. Not nearly as good as the vive, but I've had better luck than most.
I read that also, but i just got my Rift 2 days ago, and i dont see why you would need 3. Even with just one hooked up i can turn my back to the sensor and not loose tracking. I think most of these claims come from people not having them far enough apart. inside 3 feet it doesn't track well. but who knows
Oculus owner here as well. What he doesn't show is that if you turn around the cameras likely will not be able to see the touch controllers b/c they will be blocked by your body. That's the purpose of the 3rd camera
it seems like you would just be okay with one in front and behind you though. Im still waiting on my touch conrollers, but it seems like it reads well enough that it would work
Recommended but not needed I use 2 facing each other and it is working well but I don't have a lot of space sensors are about 13' apart. You need 3 sensors for flawless 360 tracking and 4 for god mode :)
im never letting you hold my cat
mattymatt2323 hahahahhaaa
Until you turn around and the cameras cant see you... its a bummer oculus users have to buy a 3rd camera to achieve proper room scale, and the amount of USB ports being used up by the cameras is a bit of a pain too, but oh well im just glad Oculus users can finally come play some of the awesome roomscale games the Vive owners have been playing
You can do 360 with 2 sensor. You need the 3rd for room scale and honestly one more sensor isnt much when you already have a vr capable pc and a headset
@@smartguyjaja You don't really need a 3rd for roomscale. Many have a successful rs setup with 2, it depends on the persons layout. They may need a 3rd to cover a blind spot.
I'm getting my touch controllers tomorrow! So excited.
Okay now you need to try a three or four camera setup and see what the limitations are there. Given what you get with two cameras, using three or four cameras would make a space that will be incredibly huge.
Guys, can I use a few seconds of your video in my oculus review please? With links to you and name of your channel and video on the screen? I don't have enough space, and you have a good demo of tracking quality.
I recently picked up the Rift and tried out the experimental 360 with the 2 sensors in corner to corner, some times it drops tracking, some times my head gets stuck and some times things get odd, tho it isn't to bad for $400... tho I wish I knew someone close by with the Vive so I could try it out and compare.
Tho there are videos out there it would be nice to try it in person, I might mess with my sensors to bring them a little lower on my wall to see if that fixes the tracking issues, I have 2 sensors at this time and my god the wires!
Can you tell me what size did you achieve with the 2 front facing camera?
Does he realize he can just make an outline for his play area and it will fill it in automatically? At least that's what i did when i got my Rift today. 😊
I'm confussd.
I'd like to see the Rift try to do 25' x 25' with seemless tracking like the vive can.
with 4 cams no prob...
SuckeroftheYear Not really, the view distance is terrible with the Rift sensors.
nope its epic ?
SuckeroftheYear I put my 3 sensors kitty-corner across from eachother in my 3.0mx3.5m room. Got terrible tracking, yet my vive tracks perfectly. No LED interference either.
your mainboard/driversor sensors suck...i put them in my 20 square meter room in 3m distance and got perfect tracking not compareable to the stutter tracking with 2 lighhouse fail units...greez
it move slow
Now turn around XD
Wtf?
Can you try with opposite locations for roomscale, please?
pretty extensive demo, thanks dude
so 180° tracking on a small area lol
With two frontfacing cameras, sure. With 2 cameras across from each other, full 360 with the same space. 3 cameras, full roomscale. 4 is just a buffer really.
One of the issues with full room scale will be that each camera requires USB connection to your computer. Also the more cameras you have the heavier the back end processing will be. Simple light latency testing with the vive sensors is nearly instantaneous. It uses simple trig equations to process the time it takes each sensor on the controllers/headset to be pinged and then triangulate from there to resolve an XYZ position coordinate as well as an orientation in XYZ. This type of computation could be handled at nearly zero overhead. Also there aren't any visual optics that inherently degrade the visual accuracy of the information coming in to be tracked. In my line of work ive done allot of camera tracking for film and commercials. I know its not exactly the same but they both require allot of optical accuracy and processing to achieve a decent track. My first experience in VR was on the DK1(no position tracking) which is the same thing as the Oculus gear VR. My second was on the DK2 (optical positional tracking) which finally crossed that threshold into convincing presence in VR . Once I saw the vive lighthouse tech I instantly knew it was not subject to the issues that were hard to overcome with optical tracking. This is what prompted me to switch. Knowing how this tech works is key to understanding which will work better on a technical level. But as I have seen in this demo for allot of scenarios the two camera setup will due fine for simple games that put you facing a stage. Test them both thoroughly before buying.
PS i have mad respect for all the technicians and scientist involved in making my childhood dreams of VR a reality. I will let the final product be the judge though. And this is just my first had impressions of each system and the technology they use to achieve the same task.
Joe shmoe OK perhaps the resolution on the sensors are lower than I thought and perhaps they have a way of optimizing the stream for optical tracking. that still doesnt change the inherent issues with optics and resolution at a distance. also the cone angle seems to be less than that of the light house system. how do you feel this compares, I.e limitations for both techniques. Is the oculus not limited? from this demo I see a lack of 360°. I have seen a demo on "tested" where they setup room scale by placing the cameras diagonally. the issues they run into like controllers sticking and jittering seem to be caused by none other than the limitations in the tracking. My main message here is the limitation of sending multiple video streams to a computer and having said computer process them all the while it is also trying to keep up with solid 90 fps. perhaps you know better than me on this. what do you own? do you have the rift/ vive.
Thanks for your feedback with your experience with the oculus touch. Being the same price point after setting up touch, to me they should have gone the same or similar rout as the vive with tracking. But I understand they went far down the rabbit hole already and decided to push the tech as far as they can. With your setup you are getting really good results as far as accuracy. I know it sounds nitpicky but im curious to see how things fare for a large number of customers. Of course its hard for me to compare my vive setup to someones Oculus touch setup. I will have to wait and see when one of my friends picks up touch so I can give it proper hands on critisism. Do you have any issues with occlusion? How about dead spots within your play area? I have been very impressed with the lighthouse tracking in reguards to this and im curious to hear what you have observed.
Joe shmoe but does that include 360 tracking?
The beard is really great, Ben. People need to know when their beards are on point, and it's not said enough. Keep it up!
Oh by the way, thanks for the content. I was hoping someone would make this exact video. I'm also curious about the vertical limits. Rifters are going to LOVE Climbey.
Would have liked to see a more vertical test (crouching down, reaching up). That would show up the very limited vertical fov of the cameras I think.
I have both cameras on the desktop at chest height, my play space is 1 meter away from the cameras and I get full tracking floor to roof.
The FOV is about 90 on the cameras so you 'draw' a 45 degree line up and down from the camera to see where it will track.
Fov for the sensors is actually quite large both vertically and horizontally.
Well that's great. If you keep your arms between your waist and head then you get the area you are showing. Just don't drop anything.
Great VideO! haha people wanted to see this forever) glad you did it so well)
Lets play some games guys!!!))
thanks for sharing this!
Are you going to do a similar experiment using opposing corner cameras and another with a third camera?
Is the constant jittering of the white circle (representing the Touch controller) a problem with the video / recording?
Or are there some technical problems with your controllers? Low battery perhaps?
The test itself is a bit pointless, because it only tests the optimal mid-height level. But of course room-scale means from *floor to ceiling.* The cameras will have a hard time to track the whole space of the shown play-area. So this test is a bit of a waste of time.
Woa, ok I would be interested to see the same sort of test with 4 tracking cameras.
nalorcs Yeah, that's what it looks like.
what about with 8 cameras
slikk66 4 cameras is an actually option Oculus Home gives you though. That is currently the max amount of trackers you can use with the Rift.
Excellent, and very helpful, demonstration. Can you share a bit about the physical dimensions of the rectangles you created there? Looked to be around 8x6 for real world, maybe a little larger?
I would love to see a test in experimental sensor set up (corner to corner). I'm curious to see how well it does 360 degree tracking.
Everyone doing testing is demostrating that direct opposite position is the best setup to maximize your playing space. Also rotating 30º down (putting cameras on ceiling and pointing to floor) improve a lot the 2 camera setup. Can you test it too?
Face backwards. roomscale without being able to turn 360 is extremely immersion breaking
honestly after seeing this im a little disappointed. I thought the play space would have been larger......
I can also walk like 3 meters out of my vive room and still have tracking. but its not optimal at all!
when you face the opposite and your body blocked the controller, will it lost tracking? because on this demo, you're only showing 180 degree facing the front camera/monitor.
This setup only works facing forward.
Why not test it with a game that requires 360 degrees of movement. I was watching Nathie's live steam of Superhot VR earlier. He was losing tracking often when he knelled down.
haven't seen his video, but I'm guessing he had the sensors on the table so it blocked the view when he got low. if so, it´s easily solved with having the sensors up high on the wall looking down
mount table sensors on the wall...lol just get a Vive this is ridiculous.
yeah camera is also made to be mounted on the wall
Its just a ridiculous bit of advice. move the cameras forward a little so your desk is not occluding if you must have your play space so close to the desk...
dat OMNI in the back ... someone might murder you to try to steal that.
Hey All, for interest - I have a 2.5x 3mt room, one sensor in Cnr facing room cntr, the other NOT in the opposite cnr but inbetween cnrs on opposite wall (perpendicular to wall) facing room cntr. Works heaps better. 5mt active usb 3 needed obviously
Roof mounted btw, hanging about 100mm to be precise, but I'm sure that shouldnt make a diff
Interesting video, thank you. It wouldn't make much sense to cover the front with plastic and more IR led's though. Then you wouldn't be able to point and stretch out your fingers, which is quite an important feature. Or did I misunderstand your point?
He means a full ring instead of half circle like on a cutlass sword. (pirates sword) The full ring like the Vives full circle would give it better tracking. Not sure what Oculus was thinking.
You don't need to paint the whole volume. Just the perimeter.
Great test!
I know the parallell cameras is how Oculus recommends the setup but I would like to see some alternative setups like further apart and angled inwards. With cameras higher and possibly lower which might give more angle on the tracked ring of the controller.
I would imagine Oculus tested all the different setups and found that this one works best even though it's not that good.
Caneras too close together, no? Would widen that front end
What if the cameras were placed on the ground looking up slightly? would that improve the visibility of the sensors?
yes, but it would also cause more occlusion from your body
How far is your corner!!!!!! We need numbers
Can someone explain to me what the roomscale is for?
Useless test
You could do this with 1 sensor
Still gonna stick with the Vive... can't wait for those new controllers! nice detailed video btw
VinceG ye me too even though I don't own one but the vive sounds much better. Such as even better tracking, from what Ive seen you can spin the controller like tis guy did and will never lose tracking, plus they are working on making the vive wireless as we speak.
The wireless solutions that are sold for the Vive work with the Oculus as well.
Also the controllers apparently track better in multiple situations better than the Vives. And they are a lot more comfortable. Plus, they have joysticks, which is the biggest plus for me.
These are indeed better than the current gen vive controllers, and the joysticks are definitely a nice feature. however after using the vive touchpads for a while, you end up really not missing the joysticks. and the fact that you don't have to hold the next gen vive controllers is a great feature that's not on the Rift.
Oculus touch (like the rift) seems better designed and more polished, however the tracking solution is less suited for roomscale/360 degrees. You also need three cameras and the cables are too short
with the extra sensor you get an extra 5m usb extension cable
I need that room in my apartment.
Awesome, thanks for sharing. Now what I'm really interested in is the performance when the cameras are positioned opposite each other diagonally :)
Not sure anyone asked. But have you tried with all 4 sensors as you just did in the video.
4 sensors?? The normal amount is 2 and the recommended amount is 3. Where did you get 4 from?k
How many IR points are there on the top of touch so a top down wall mounted cam can track?
None.
Is your mic on the controller? lmao
what happens when you turn your back to the cameras
this is crap.. so glad I bought a Vive.. When playing games I'm constantly turning 360 and never even know what direction I'm facing. How can you tell your facing towards the camera with your VR on??? Try again Oculus.
Something a lot of people aren't aware of is that you can stick 2 cameras towards each other from either side which allows for 360 turning, no third camera needed. You're still massively limited on playspace however, which is why 3-4 cameras is recommended if you want movement with 360 turning.
That's horrible, so you have to concentrate on where the wind is blowing while trying to play your game?? Wow...
Just buy a 3rd sensor, and you get perfect room scale. I've got a rift with this setup and it works great.
Until the headset is wireless, that large of a space will never be needed.
bullshit lol. Ideally we want wireless yes but i would much prefer wired with much higher resolution. We cant have both yet due to technological limitations. But a large playspace with a wire is no worse than a small playspace and a wire...i dont get your logic at all. Oculus just needs a much longer wire like the Vive
Chris Thorpe you're misunderstanding. I was referring to the room sensors. They are why a giant room is required. By putting those into the headset (like hololens) you could get full immersion without a giant square and wires run all over the room.
What about vertical boundaries ?
Yea it's nice knowing those aswell for specific builds I guess but not manditory as it''s not like youre climbing a real life ladder while ingame.
Robbert But you do bend down to pick up objects, open drawers, etc quite a bit.
ncdv47 Thats true ye
wtf is he doing?
Show the tracking from the headset lol.. not on your "room map" This makes no sense, lets see how good they really track pls
Headset is larger and easier to track. Controllers aren't. Use some logic.
Im talking about showing us how good the tracking is from inside the headset.. not on that little map you got there m8.. we cant see if the controllers are juttering or anything when you swing your arms violently and says its quite impressive... just because its green does not mean there is no issues at all.. if the tracking is not 100% it is not an option.. If you get my drift? Have a good day :)
Lumidandk I see, so you are speaking of the in-game view from the headset. I can tell you that what you see on the screen is a more accurate representation of tracking than what your eyes can see. You should see perfect mm precision tracking.
I have a 3.0m x 3.5m space I use for the Vive and Rift. I have three cameras for the rift and place them in in a triangular pattern from eachother about 7 feet up against the walls. I see some small jitters and tracking issues that last for split seconds, but everything has been mostly good so far. Not nearly as good as the vive, but I've had better luck than most.
Hwo is this guy?
i would like to see the same test done with the vive controllers
No reason to. The vive can achieve 25' x 25' without any tracking loss.
but is the tracking precise 100% at the same rate in all the 25x25 space or it has some hiccup?,
yashizuko Yup, even outside.
The Rift, however, jitters and hiccups galore at those distances.
the controllers are way too big, you might dislocated your arms lmao
I heard that the 3rd tracker is recommended for room setups.
I read that also, but i just got my Rift 2 days ago, and i dont see why you would need 3. Even with just one hooked up i can turn my back to the sensor and not loose tracking. I think most of these claims come from people not having them far enough apart. inside 3 feet it doesn't track well. but who knows
Oculus owner here as well. What he doesn't show is that if you turn around the cameras likely will not be able to see the touch controllers b/c they will be blocked by your body. That's the purpose of the 3rd camera
it seems like you would just be okay with one in front and behind you though. Im still waiting on my touch conrollers, but it seems like it reads well enough that it would work
Recommended but not needed I use 2 facing each other and it is working well but I don't have a lot of space sensors are about 13' apart. You need 3 sensors for flawless 360 tracking and 4 for god mode :)
For reliable 360degree tracking you need 4 cameras, 2 of which need to be on long USB 3.0 extension cords.