As a DM, what did a TPK (Total Party Kill) teach you?
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- Опубліковано 2 тра 2024
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As a DM, what did a TPK (Total Party Kill) teach you?
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Don't throw a dragon at your 3rd level party. It may be blind and you do have a rogue, but the paladin will fail all the stealth checks
My party did just fight a dragon at 3rd level. It was kind of fun to do at that low a level, but to help out we had a few cleric helping us that was capable of reviving us, and focused on support
I also did that, fortunately for them, they were with a very powerful sorceress who had the teleport spell on her. She teleported them away when they were in grave danger, even though she warned them that they stand no chance against it. It was our best session so far. One of the players had awoken his powers from his Patron on that day and our Dragonborn and Kobold felt scared of what it is to fight a REAL dragon. The rest had no real scary reaction. Mostly because they were in a hurry to leave since I kept them for so long in that session.
Dragon Wrmlings go crazy tho
I as a DM - learned that Gelatinous cubes can be fucking brutal if you use them right.
As a player I can testify to this being stone cold facts … le sigh
@@ElizabethDurell fully admitted, myplayers know up front, my world is strictly FAFO, and well...they get sucked into a cube. (1/2e) - paralyzes them (failed save) - they get scared to save them. they drown and die. /shrug . it was kinda fucked. but is what it is. besides cubes are damn near invisible. they have the faintest shimmer if played correctly. as written.
Yup and now I have permanent PTSD when dungeon floors are just a little too clean lmao 🤣
@@ElizabethDurellthat's what I always tell in places where there is a chance for a gelatinous cube encounter "you feel like this place is way too clean for what it's supposed to be"
DM told us our first party will get Killed in the firat encounter, so make a second one.
So, we all agreed to make our second party with the theme of "Avenging our pimps!"
Our DM was reluctantly amused.
As a player, and a future DM, a TPK doesn’t always mean game over… and is not always caused by the DM wanting to kill the players. Was playing Frostmaiden when the party I was with got wiped out by a construct thanks to the DM rolling several nat 20’s. The DM handled the situation by putting that dice into his dice jail “for being murder happy” and said we were all knocked out instead of dead. We didn’t get out of it scot-free; the DM rolled to see if were injured in ways that a long rest couldn’t fix. My character got bit in half by the construct’s mouth so I had a spine injury. Permanent disadvantage on dex saves till I was healed. I think it’s a reasonable way to handle that
dude if you are anything like that DM, I would love to hear how your campaigns go (maybe even join in if my schedule allowed it)
As a DM, the group were level 2, they went for the magic sword, triggering the skeleton. Easily dealt with but the soul cames back as a wraith or specter, it got a nat 20, and deal enough damage to kill the PC outright.
So i ruled that he was unconscious with 2 failed death rows. After they won, I told him he now has disavantage on all throw until healed. They spend a week resting in town.
@@Tetsukonakaneedits unfortunately life has made it impossible to even play, let alone DM. However life has started to settle down so hopefully I can start DMing
@@Bentron88 oof I know how that feels, I wish the best of times and a chance to relax and play some dnd
5:42 _That,_ is how you do a TPK with style. It served the purpose of advancing the story to a well-deserved conclusion. The party died saving the world, and they sure as hell saved it for sure. The next generation can come to clean up the mess, and rebuild. :)
Our DM likes to stress that the world is a dangerous place, that it's possible to pick an unwinnable fight, and that running away is always a viable option. He thought he was about to accidentally tpk us in only our 2nd session. Our level 2 party (Fighter, Rogue, Bard, and Wizard) picked a fight with what turned out to be a CR 5 demon. However, using teamwork and superior tactics, we took it down relatively easily. He laughed and said we had no business winning that fight, and that he expected us to run.
He lied to you and fudged the numbers.
@@saltybulldog3241 He showed us the stats after the fight. We were able to restrain it, and it was at continuous disadvantage thanks to failing saves 3 rounds in a row for Viscous Mockery. It also rolled low enough on Initiative that everyone but the wizard got to act first. Our DM rolls the dice in front of everyone, so unless he was fudging its modifiers it was an honest victory.
Our ork barbarian failed a roll and grabbed a dragon by the balls thinking it was a solid gold orb, and ripped him in half. Very funny, but very dead.
Three idiots with an sorce of anything infinite is a recipe for evil
One idiot is well enough
Facts!
My first TPK as a DM taught me that the dice will definitely not let my players survive against 3 unprepared newbie kobolds, despite having more terrain advantage and combat prowess. You can balance an encounter all you want, but the dice gods are fickle beings that survive on players' tears and shiggles.
No matter how powerful you are if the dice gods want you dead and RNJesus is not with you you are just going to die smh
Part of balancing encounters is also understanding how your players fight. You can use the proper cr to player level and that might not be enough, but it my also be too much for other parties. Also don’t allow PvP, that killed more PCs than I would like to admit
What I learned was I don't like TPK's ether as a player or as a DM. Effectively having to reestablish the party, players, and possibly deal with class changes is a hassle and at the bare minimum feels like we're just wasting time to get back on track.
True. But the hassle should motivate both the players and the DM to do better next time.
Today I realised he says "Brian Vaughn VA" I always thought he's french and named "Brian Von Viey" or something
"Von" iz a german particle. In french it would be "de". "Brian de Vié" ^^'
me, who thought it was Brian von VA:
He can't say "coup de grace" so no, not french.
Wasn't me, but the other healer in the party (I was a cleric, she was a witch) learned the value of having heals prepped.
Long story short, I had mentioned that I didn't have enough spell slots to keep a good amount of heals ready for when we fought a fire drake. She offered to back me up which I thought was a good idea. She prepared a single extra heal and told nobody.
We rolled the session back and came at it next game with a better loadout, but man, that was a rough lesson for her to learn.
PANR has tuned in.
It's better if a monster crits once per fight instead of every nat 20.
As a player with a single Tpk I learned two things: there are consequences to my actions, and puzzles that confuse the party get players killed.
No matter how much you foreshadow, hint, and nudge the players, they will never adequately prepare for a deadly boss fight. They'll skip on the perfect spells and consumables for... reasons?
I have only had a few TPKs, and usually they teach me how much I overestimate my players.
Our table has never had a proper TPK, but we've had near-TPKs where the party either had to run or beg for mercy.
The first and clearest one I can recall was in a Ravnica game. After a joint exercise with the Boros (military) went poorly (3 recruits died on a hunting expedition, even though they were revived afterwards) wanted to, as punishment, strong-arm us into raiding a Golgari lich's lair in the Undercity alongside the Azorius (police). Not a capital-L CR a billion Lich, but more along the lines of a Devkarin Lich that you'd find in the Ravnica guide, except years before the Ravnica guide was printed. I should also mention that the Undercity in Ravnica is literally the underground ruins of previous city dwellings that have been built over for millennia, sort of like Futurama's Old New York but more cramped.
Anyway, my character sat out the dungeon crawl because he objected to it morally (the Golgari had been nothing but reasonable as far as he knew them, and the Boros never gave a reason for the raid beyond "lich bad") and secretly wanted to buy his gf earrings that day, so while he said he trusted the party to keep everyone safe and did his own thing, I puppeted one of several DMPCs available so I'd have something to do. The party, after accidentally setting a farm on fire and fighting past a pocket of unrelated cultists, come to the slaughterhouse: a 5ft-wide hallway with several doors.
The Rogue goes forward to scout it out, finds the lich behind one of the doors, and motions the party which door the target is in. However, just behind the party was an Ochran Assassin (level 17 Rogue with Purple Wurm poison) that got a surprise attack on the Monk that would have killed him in one shot if he wasn't immune to Poison damage. Initiative starts up as the Monk's pained alert to the party and allies also alerts the lich and his allies. The lich comes out and the Rogue gets put into a Forcecage, the Bard gets taken out by the Assassin, the NPC soldiers die to several lesser Druids and a Circle of Death, the second Monk I was piloting manages to take out the Assassin, but can't back up the Fighter and the NPC commander who are trying to 5v2 guys way above their pay grade coming out of the flanking doors. Realizing that the fight is basically over and they have no moral high ground, the Fighter appeals to the lich, who we find out is actually Jarad vod Savo (the big leader of the Golgari who *is* CR a billion), to allow their surrender. The commander objects and lets spill that this was, through corrupt backroom strategies, considered their best chance to take out an opposing guild leader or a powerful party of vigilantes, and Jarad both accepts the surrender and pulls out a scroll of PW:K to finish off the commander as punishment for the damage his corruption had caused. He sets them up with a different Golgari target (the Golgari are very prone to in-fighting) for a future date, and the party returns home with their tails between their legs. My Ranger greets them as he hears the door open, sees the Bard GF was KO'd, and is filled with the worst combination of bittersweet "I told you so" energy, justified suspicions, and survivor's guilt.
I'm not sure there was really even a lesson to learn from that besides trusting your party? It was such a clusterfuck of mishaps, mistakes, and bad geography that I don't even know if it's to trust your party when they think something is bad news, or to trust your party when everyone else wants to go on the suicide mission they know nothing about to try to fluff a numbers advantage. I for one still think I did the right thing for my character, if nothing else maybe his absence pushed the Fighter to make the correct choice in surrendering before the damage was irreversible, but obviously I also can't say for certain his presence wouldn't have helped the situation even a little. If anything, I guess the lesson is that thinking about the alternate options of the past doesn't help much in the present in future. We got a semi-rematch later as part of Jarad's quest for us, where my Ranger joined with a Simulacrum. He had Haste cast on him in the first round and intentionally dropped in the second, then failed to CHA a hideaway to defect and missed every attack so... I felt kind of justified?
That if you make the entire party to annoy the DM, he can pray to the dice gods for salvation and it might get answered.
I had a 6 person party for my first game.
3 casters with silvery barbs, 1 of which was a Halfling Divination Wizard that took bountiful luck at level 4
3 optimized martials with a min of 19 AC, one of which being an EK so 24 AC in an emergency.
The only thing they couldnt be invincible from was a saves and ambush hits and thats when it happened.
2 crits out of 3 hits in an ambush then they all failed a near max damage lightning bolt (47 out of 48)
Then they lost initiative for the most part and got hit from outside silvery barbs range due to them choosing the worst possible entrance to the room.
I felt the dice gods hold me and tell me "its okay, we'll take it from here."
Eldritch Knight or Echo Knight? And what gives +5 AC??
@jonathanmarks3112 Eldritch Knight, shield spell.
Limited resource but when hitting their base ac is hard enough, all the other casters are using all slots for Silvery barbs, the shield spell on top is just extra pain.
I started running a game for two of my friends and put them through the Forge of Fury from the Tales of the Yawning Portal. I started them out a couple levels higher than the recommended party level and gave them a DMPC to try and make up for the lack of numbers, then ran the encounters as written. They were doing ok until they met Great Ulfe the ogre, and his pet dire wolves. It was 3 on 3, and the enemy had a little more power on their side, so they tried to flee, and failed. I tried to allow them to escape, even had the ogre stop attacking and just watch for the last part, but I couldn't think of any reason that the wolves, who were MUCH faster than them and attacked at advantage with the damage of a greatsword, would stop their assault. So they continued to chase the party to the last, and they all died in an anticlimactic failed escape, ending the adventure and the campaign before it had a chance to really begin.
What I learned from this was, encounters need to be properly considered according to the party's capabilities and balanced accordingly. Undersized parties need to be fighting less powerful enemies and less enemies that are powerful, especially at low levels. If I were to try running that encounter today, Great Ulfe would probably be alone in his room, or he would be an orc with some normal wolves instead of an ogre with dire wolves. That being said, there are several encounters in the Forge of Fury that probably would have given them trouble even if that one hadn't, so it might have been just as well it ended there. Of course, now the party of 2 has expanded to a party of 5, so I don't really have that problem anymore.
How’s it going for them?
@@jonathanmarks3112 It seems to be going well. I've run those two through two whole campaign modules, and they're getting super invested in the one I'm running now. There was one encounter where I almost killed them with some modified imps, but that was only because they hadn't had a short rest the entire dungeon and I pulled back at the right time, so I guess I did manage to learn from that last one.
A TPK once taught me that players who copy broken builds from the internet are not all that good at fighting. In the end, the players were devastated and I had to pull a “you wake up, it was all a dream.” Still, prophetic visions are not to be ignored. Next time I’m sure they can do it.
To the DM with the Zombie Dog story (around the 14 minute mark), I would have left your game too. You threw the party at, in you words, an unwinnable situation in the first session! There is nothing you can say that justifies that.
Door is behind you. :)
Sometimes the level 2 will fight over 100 goblins instead of running.
Im a player not a DM, but I fear a TPK because of how my DM balances his encounters.
His Main bad guys, he makes them able to do damage equal to a 18 Con fighter of the parties level in one round.
So our lvl 9 party is going up against things that can do upto 90 damage is a single round.
The AC tank, has 76hp (24 AC)
The Wizard has 82hp (amulet of health)
The Rogue has 70ish
The Barbarian has 110 (Bear totem)
I'm just waiting for the day someone just gets nuked and is gone, and I have a feeling it's going to be my charecter that gets it as she is the AC tank, she's the protective one.
Im also waiting for the DM to break out disintergrate, because then I know he's trying to just straight up kill someone.
I learned to remind players they have potions
Giant Roller-Polleys are extremely dangerous
Nearly TPK today, my party has no tactical planing. Hoping their new characters (5/7 dead) are more cohesive. A single flameskull detonated theor explosive equipment with fireball, the tap house in Phandelin is nearly gone. Don't take inactive flameskulls home!
It was one of my first times DMing and it was in a pre-established world where there were a bunch of parties and a bunch of DMs. There was a bunch happening in that world and every party was between levels 6 and 8
So, obviously, being a relatively new player and an even newer DM, I felt like higher levels were awesome, and told my very first party to roll up level 8 characters
Because of this, I had an issue. Players were steamrolling my combats left right and center, even when I used monster with a Challenge Rating far, far above the players' level.
I looked around the internet, and the answer seemed to be "minions" Give the enemy lots of minions, and they'll stand a much better chance.
So I did. For my next boss fight, the high ranking devil invading the material plane had a bunch of nasty CR 2 or 3 or so minions.
But I did also still hold on to the idea that the main boss needed a very high statblock.
He had an ability that was basically sunbeam, a high AC, a reaction that gave him resistance to a damage type that he could trigger when getting hurt, plenty of health, many attacks, and his minions basically had a damaging aura that only became more powerful when there were multiple.
It wasn't even close.
It stung even more that this campaign, narratively, was probably one of the better ones I've DM'd.
My murder hobo Bard blindly attacking a dragon isn't a good idea
If i mess up and it hurts the party roll it back. If it helps the party roll with it.
Dont let someone else tell you how to run your game. I was running a 3.5 game with the specific intent of doing a story driven vanilla campaign, and brought in a new player.
The new player decided they wanted to strongarm splatbooks and expansions that i didnt have the time nor energy to read. Eventually i got bored and built the most powerful assassin i could to gut them in their sleep.
On the next ling rest, i made sure to roll everything out and announced that everyone's character was slain, with the exception of the power gamer's, who woke up with a streak of blood on them from each other party member across their cheek. I disbanded the group after this, and let them know i hadn't been having fun for several sessions due to the library i couldnt catch up on.
Vindictive? Yes. Bullshit? Yes. Satisfying? Yes. The right way to do things? No.
10:32 I can confirm this and my example isn’t even a TPK and am a player. Semi-spoilers for the newest Dragonlance module but there is an encounter that is very scary early on. When I tell two of the other players were acting like the DM had a personal vendetta. This was ignoring the fact that we were warned in session 0 about the campaign in general and above table the mechanics of the combat right before because the DM wanted to give us a decent chance. We got through with no deaths but the shit storm they threw afterwards would’ve made you think it was a TPK.
don't piss on Ymir's brain; the slumbering titan whose body is the entire world still has control over it mostly
Teleport & mind control abilities are both OP. Parties splitting up can be dangerous. Combine all 3 to end a campaign in under 20min. Oops.
As a DM, I've never had a TPK that wasn't intentional.
The only TPK's I've experienced with my players have been due to their own stupidity. I like to be more fun and fair than a hard dm. So I let my players try things so long as its creative and isn't game breaking. Or if they know the extreme risks of what they're attempting.
Also to be fair, the DM that TPK'd his entire party in the first session for narrative convenience really was completely in the wrong. Despite him moving heaven and earth to blame the swashbuckler.
unwinnable opening dm needs to realise that, he coulda just lead with "your party has died at the hands of a vampire and zombies, and been ressurected a year later"
instead of putting them in a fight that they will take seriously only to be met with impossible challenges and killed, which even if theyre resurrected, that character is now entirely different, as they have had a brush with death, which changes how people act and feel
I never try to intentionally TPK my players. I play most encounters within what I know they can handle.
But when they happen it is often that either the players make a lot of bad decisions during an encounter or they think of the game as a strategy game and don't value their characters beyond powers and abilities.
I cant stand players who think their PCs shouldnt lose.
It taught me that sometimes the story ends abruptly, the heroes don’t win, and maybe it’s better that way. Rather than force a narrative and have a party carry on with the current campaign, it’s a sound enough ending to the campaign to have a TPK. And it makes way for new adventures and new stories
Never *technically* have had a TPK, but two general take aways. CR=/= player level and have an in-universe reason why characters are brought back or Deus Ex-ed. Maybe 3rd is let players theoretically have an option to let their character die or change characters if their current character recieved trauma if they are bored of the current character.
The DM’s from past stories: “I learned that the party are liars for gaslighting the internet into thinking I’m a bad DM just because I exercised my right to justify double standards”
my problem is that we have one massive asshole in our party that has led to many near tpk’s bc he refuses to listen or consider any form of plan. got a door that needs opening? instead of letting the rogues do it, he forces the door open. got a dangerous puzzle trap that you need to figure out by the clues on the wall? no! he forces it open. Got a command word you need to figure out from scraps of paper? just guess the wrong one and nearly get us all killed! I’m a very new player but every game I’ve played in so far, the only near tpk’s have been due to one dickhead fucking it up for everyone. Of course there have been near tpk’s bc that’s the nature of fighting the bbeg and them being so powerful. But 90% of my experience has been the former.
A run where I dropped the party in the Dragon's Hoard after a Wild party the day before I was expecting them not to do anything too stupid then the dragon was going to hire them to pick up something but you can guess how that went, the party was at level 15 they try to stuff their pockets and running but fail horribly attempts to deescalate fail party insults dragon regrets immediately
Pathfinder 1e poisons are hardcore.
Don’t nuke the dragon unless you’re at a level where you can finish the job. No context beyond that.
That it is okay to tpk your party.
It wasn't a TPK, but it nearly became one. My lesson: Pay attention to monster CR, and maybe don't start the party off by fighting a group of goblin *alchemists.* For reference, this was Pathfinder, where alchemists have throwable bombs. *The party was level 1.*
Well our DM learned paralyzed = crit. We play "brutal critical rules" so a crit does max dice damage plus dice rolls. (2d6+2) crit damage is (6+6+2) + (2d6). Means a crit from a boss can be an insta knockout. Also a boss with multi atack and paralyzing breath sounds like this. The monster breathes it's nasty breath weapon all make saving throws. (3/4 fail). You are all paralyzed, it uses its tentacles to attack you. Player - Uuummm all those hits are crits. Dm - uuuummm oh ooo ooohhh...oh noooo. Players yea...barbarian who survived the breath weapon screams "to the deathhhh!!!!" Which happened2 IRL minutes later.
I’d tell my story, but i wasn’t the DM so i don’t know if i should tell it. The clipnotes version is that my character caused a TPK by doing something that the other party members had shown would lead to a negative outcome
No matter how many times, and the many ways you warn the party, they just may not get the hint. Players do not think like you. Greed, even if it is imaginary gold, can be overwhelming. Racism in diplomacy will not end well. (Different TPKs with different groups).
D&D 3e: Nauseated:
Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move (or move-equivalent action) per turn.
Nauseated characters are not _helpless_ and so not subject to a Coup de grâce.
D&D 3e: Helpless:
Bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious characters are helpless.
Incompetent dm it seems
Short rests
I'm going to say that the take of the DM in the third story is not one that I'd broadly implement. Not everybody comes to role playing with the intention of becoming grand tacticians, so games that require a year of teaching your players how to fight is going to be a turn off to a lot of people. Some people want to just have fun - which is a valid play style - and turning D&D into a high level combat simulator won't appeal to them. Some people want to really focus on the narrative, and making a high chance that they'll lose what they've been building through the plot because you as a DM didn't think they were using good enough combat tactics won't appeal to them. Some people want to really get into their characters and, yes, having a character whose driving value is putting the lives of their teammates before themselves might mean that they don't run when it's strategical to do so, but is it really making the game better if you tell them that their character has the wrong moral framework for your world?
And that's not getting to the difficulty of being able to pull off that style in the first place. If most players aren't top notch at tactics, etc., then it's safe to assume that most DMs aren't either. I can very easily see this advice leading to well intentioned DMs upping the difficulty of their encounters, making them unbalanced, and then afterwards blaming the characters for their own deaths because they didn't read the DM's mind and take the one proper course of action that would have let them survive.
Sure, a maximized combat simulator is a style of game play that some people are really going to enjoy, but I would say that almost no DM should change their play style to incorporate that advice unless their players aren't happy with the current campaign, and if you're going to play like that, you have to make sure you've got a bunch of players who really want that for their game. Hardcore tactical combat is a style of play, but that doesn't make it *the correct* style of play. The correct style of play is one that the people at the table enjoy.
What did I learn from DMing a TPK?
Nothing. Insert the Goofy meme. I'll fuckin' do it again.
The main thing i have learned is that it's not fun for anyone. I've had 2 tpk's as a dm,and they were both on accident.
Been part of three near TPK's as a player, two where I was the only survivor and one where I did lose a character I loved. Can say that those moments were a blast and we still have fond memories of them.
That last dm is actually pretty bad. I get where some of his reasoning comes from but if you guys are ina story and they see zombie dogs pretty much everyone is gonna wanna continue and push the story forward.
I disagree with the last DM's takeaway solely on the situation he described. He set the scene and began the story for the campaign. A story driven TPK in the furst session is a good motivation/plothook, and he gave them chances to spot it and run beforehand.
Made clear who were whiners.
Also who could do the most entertaining rage quit.
Finally infinitely easier to decide who to invite on next game.
As a fledgling DM, my one and only TPK taught me unstoppable monster HP regeneration makes unstoppable monsters.
The PCs were trapped in the monster’s lair, and it could summon and consume giant insects to regain HP. Its regeneration outstripped the PCs damage output, and they’d been beaten up getting to the lair. They did enough damage to kill it 3 times over if it didn’t keep regenerating. And I was too inexperienced to be able to change things on the fly.
Talking with one of the players afterwards, we discussed how to change things around to make the monster tough but killable. So good learning for me.
As a player, I learnt not to save items for “an important battle”.
The most important battle is the current one - if you don’t make it through this one, there is no next one.
They didn’t make it through that one. RIP Tull and Tallessa 🫡