I am a HUGE Robbie van Leeuwen and Shocking Blue fan. I so wish this clip had English subtitles to go along with it, so I could know what they were saying. The only part I understood was, "Originality is undiscovered plagiarism." ;) I am familiar with the story of "Venus" being a copy of The Big 3 song, but even so, there's no question to me that Robbie is a brilliant talent in his own right. Rather than saying he "stole" the song, I prefer to say, he IMPROVED upon it!
@@mcmlxii4419 FYI: The item is from a show called ‘De wereld draait door’ (The world goes on) which was a daily evening talk show on the Dutch television. The host (left) is Matthijs van Nieuwkerk and the other guy (right) is called Leo Blokhuis who is a musical journalist and presenter. 0:04 Matthijs: Big news, at least that’s what I think, Leo Blokhuis my friend and musical mainstay did a discovery last week which will make the global music industry look surprised. It has all to do with the song ‘Venus’ from ‘Shocking Blue’. It is a big discovery right? 0:19 Leo: I didn’t discover it myself. A guy called Maarten de Mulder send me an email saying ‘You have to listen to this song’. After this they play Shocking Blue. 0:54 Matthijs: Number one in America. Leo: In the version from Shocking Blue and after that in the version from Bananarama, and actually also as a small part of ‘Stars On 45’ which makes it the only Dutch song that has been a number 1 hit in the USA in 3 different forms. And now ask Matthijs. 1:09 Leo: So I discovered a song by ‘The Big Three’. The middle one, the real ‘big’, is Mama Cass who later became a member of The Mamas and the Papas. 1:26 Leo: In 1963 they record a song and I’d love to play that for you. (He plays the song then) 1:38 Leo: We recognize that riff right?! 1:48 Leo: This melody is still the verse but I’ll play the chorus with Mama Cass which makes it interesting. (2:00 He plays the chorus). 2:05 Leo: And there is another funny thing when Mama Cass comes on, which I’ll let you hear. 2:28 Leo: We recognize the ad lib as well from Venus to be honest. 2:32 Matthijs: Be strict Leo because you are when it comes to pop history, what is going on here? 2:38 Leo: I don’t understand it. Somebody listened to a song very carefully. Let’s put first that Robbie van Leeuwen, who wrote the songs first for The Motions and later for Shocking Blue is absolute one of the best Dutch composers there is who made some amazing pieces. 2:52 Guest: It is noteworthy that this song has had 3 number 1 hits in the USA and that there has never been anybody who said ‘that’s mine’. 3:04 Leo: Tim Rose, who says he wrote the song, has also listened carefully to another song. In any case I can say that a classic in American pop music ‘Oh Suzanna of Stephen Foster’ from 1848. 3:32 he plays the song. 3:39 Leo: The lyrics are exactly the same as the one from the song from The Big Three which I just played. So this is also not completely clean [from copying]. 4:47 Matthijs: Leo we want a verdict! The judge speaks. 4:49 Leo: The conclusion is that ‘originality is undiscovered plagiarism’ 4:02 Matthijs: You did call Robbie van Leeuwen about this right? 4:05: Yes I did call him and he said ‘all those blues songs also sound like one another’ after he hung up the phone slightly irritated. 4:13 Leo: But listen, I think this case is a bit different. Robbie van Leeuwen said ‘I know The Big Three, I know the song, of course I listened to it, it has been an inspiration and let’s leave it at that’.
@@Max-xr4vh Wow!! How can I ever thank you for that? Except to say, THANK YOU! You translated the entire discussion for me, even though we don't know each other, and that makes you a special person!! I'm in your debt. :D I hope I can somehow return the favor to you someday!
@@mcmlxii4419 No problem you’re welcome! Hope you learned something new haha. I do like a few songs of Shocking Blue and I watched a documentary about them as well so I can understand why you like them :) I know they’re dutch so there is probably a lot of information about them in dutch I assume. I mean if you need some help with something else like translation you can send me your email if you like.
I do agree some things are remarkably similar in both songs but some things are also quite different. Robbie van Leeuwen added several elements that are unique of Venus. Like the iconic strummed opening chord that also returns several times during the song. And also the instrumental bridge with the gliding chord is added. And the lyrics of course, especially those of the chorus. Futhermore the singing melodies of both songs are distinctively different (verses as well as the chorus)(exception being the (iconic) 'she's got it'- part...). All together lots of differences so i think the author van Leeuwen is done wrong by labeling this as 'pure plagiarism'.
The arrangement started with a B sus 4 (dominant) that is common in opening tunes,. The ancient lyrics have nothing to with the fact that the melody and the chord progression are quite similar. If the The Big 3 had taken it to court ,the arranger had to pay. Besides ,the arranger let Mariska , (who's voice attracked the attention) pay for her play back performance, not very friendly. A double rip -off in regard to this song.
listen , i allways tought that the intro was stolen by pinball wizard ( who ) but when you hear big 3 , you can hear clearly that pinball wizard is stolen by big 3 , where is the end :-)))))
Nothing wrong with being influenced by something, and then improving on it vastly,as robbie and his gang did with that old track and made Venus (and a few more, if you listen long enough they did it a few times!). Many artistes follow up a hit with a "sounds like their last one" track. No shame in giving Joe Public what they want.
And listen to "Fever" by Trini Lopez. And when you hear "Ferris Wheel" and "Price of love" by the Everly Brothers, you recognize parts of Venus and of Mighty Joe. And the chord structure of Blossom Lady is similar to Runaway by Del Shannon (only at half the speed). Robbie van Leeuwen knew where his roots are.
Btw, did you notice that you can easily mix Billy Jean with the first part of this song? Now this is my idea. if some DJ makes a hit with it, I'll claim the success and the revenues.
I'm a Shocking Blue fan but this was a very interesting video clip. (and you don't need to know DUTCH to tell that he admitted to being influenced by the melody),I was just a kid at the time but wasn't Venus the first big hit after the Beatles broke up?
plagerism aside, Shocking Blue gets first prize for best longevity. In Canada on CBC radio they do tune comparisons between groups ... this would fit in perfectly.
Regardless of inspiration, originality, etc., Shocking Blue win this contest because Venus is the best song (even if it was a rearrangement of another) Though there are obvious similarities, different chording in the verse makes it a different song imo. Superior arrangement, superior performance and delivery. That says volumes when you are up against Mama Cass, one of the finest pop voices ever. Venus beats any predecessor in its family tree by leaps and bounds.
The driving guitar intro was taken from Lovin' Spoonful's "Speakin' of Spoken", out of the movie soundtrack " What's Up Doc". Shocking Blue's one time act looks so innocent now, compared to plagiarism monsters as Led Zeppelin or Michael Jackson and countless big names.
Typisch van Nieuwkerk, mosterd na de maaltijd. Zelfs toen dit uitgezonden werd wisten de echte muziekliefhebbers al lang waar venus door geïnspireerd werd! This is so typical for the presenter of this show: pretending this was a "new discovery" whereas real musiclovers already new much longer that Venus was inspired by this song...
Leo Blokhuis may be VERY cute, but, he is not actually very knowledgeable on 'American Songbook' and trad. music. And he pronounces 'plagiarism' rather stupidly.
I am a HUGE Robbie van Leeuwen and Shocking Blue fan. I so wish this clip had English subtitles to go along with it, so I could know what they were saying. The only part I understood was, "Originality is undiscovered plagiarism." ;)
I am familiar with the story of "Venus" being a copy of The Big 3 song, but even so, there's no question to me that Robbie is a brilliant talent in his own right. Rather than saying he "stole" the song, I prefer to say, he IMPROVED upon it!
I know your comment is over a year old, but do you still want a translation/summary of the video? Reply if so
@@Max-xr4vh Yes, that would be great! Thank you!
@@mcmlxii4419 FYI: The item is from a show called ‘De wereld draait door’ (The world goes on) which was a daily evening talk show on the Dutch television. The host (left) is Matthijs van Nieuwkerk and the other guy (right) is called Leo Blokhuis who is a musical journalist and presenter.
0:04 Matthijs: Big news, at least that’s what I think, Leo Blokhuis my friend and musical mainstay did a discovery last week which will make the global music industry look surprised. It has all to do with the song ‘Venus’ from ‘Shocking Blue’. It is a big discovery right?
0:19 Leo: I didn’t discover it myself. A guy called Maarten de Mulder send me an email saying ‘You have to listen to this song’. After this they play Shocking Blue.
0:54 Matthijs: Number one in America. Leo: In the version from Shocking Blue and after that in the version from Bananarama, and actually also as a small part of ‘Stars On 45’ which makes it the only Dutch song that has been a number 1 hit in the USA in 3 different forms. And now ask Matthijs.
1:09 Leo: So I discovered a song by ‘The Big Three’. The middle one, the real ‘big’, is Mama Cass who later became a member of The Mamas and the Papas.
1:26 Leo: In 1963 they record a song and I’d love to play that for you. (He plays the song then)
1:38 Leo: We recognize that riff right?!
1:48 Leo: This melody is still the verse but I’ll play the chorus with Mama Cass which makes it interesting. (2:00 He plays the chorus).
2:05 Leo: And there is another funny thing when Mama Cass comes on, which I’ll let you hear.
2:28 Leo: We recognize the ad lib as well from Venus to be honest.
2:32 Matthijs: Be strict Leo because you are when it comes to pop history, what is going on here?
2:38 Leo: I don’t understand it. Somebody listened to a song very carefully. Let’s put first that Robbie van Leeuwen, who wrote the songs first for The Motions and later for Shocking Blue is absolute one of the best Dutch composers there is who made some amazing pieces.
2:52 Guest: It is noteworthy that this song has had 3 number 1 hits in the USA and that there has never been anybody who said ‘that’s mine’.
3:04 Leo: Tim Rose, who says he wrote the song, has also listened carefully to another song. In any case I can say that a classic in American pop music ‘Oh Suzanna of Stephen Foster’ from 1848. 3:32 he plays the song.
3:39 Leo: The lyrics are exactly the same as the one from the song from The Big Three which I just played. So this is also not completely clean [from copying].
4:47 Matthijs: Leo we want a verdict! The judge speaks.
4:49 Leo: The conclusion is that ‘originality is undiscovered plagiarism’
4:02 Matthijs: You did call Robbie van Leeuwen about this right?
4:05: Yes I did call him and he said ‘all those blues songs also sound like one another’ after he hung up the phone slightly irritated.
4:13 Leo: But listen, I think this case is a bit different. Robbie van Leeuwen said ‘I know The Big Three, I know the song, of course I listened to it, it has been an inspiration and let’s leave it at that’.
@@Max-xr4vh Wow!! How can I ever thank you for that? Except to say, THANK YOU! You translated the entire discussion for me, even though we don't know each other, and that makes you a special person!! I'm in your debt. :D I hope I can somehow return the favor to you someday!
@@mcmlxii4419 No problem you’re welcome! Hope you learned something new haha. I do like a few songs of Shocking Blue and I watched a documentary about them as well so I can understand why you like them :)
I know they’re dutch so there is probably a lot of information about them in dutch I assume. I mean if you need some help with something else like translation you can send me your email if you like.
VENUS
Venus is ongetwijfeld een FANTASTISCH legendarisch nummer.
The Banjo Song by the Big Three never even charted in the US! How could a guy from the Netherlands even know about it?
It's great business, all melodies were stolen from unknown groups
I do agree some things are remarkably similar in both songs but some things are also quite different. Robbie van Leeuwen added several elements that are unique of Venus. Like the iconic strummed opening chord that also returns several times during the song. And also the instrumental bridge with the gliding chord is added. And the lyrics of course, especially those of the chorus. Futhermore the singing melodies of both songs are distinctively different (verses as well as the chorus)(exception being the (iconic) 'she's got it'- part...). All together lots of differences so i think the author van Leeuwen is done wrong by labeling this as 'pure plagiarism'.
The arrangement started with a B sus 4 (dominant) that is common in opening tunes,. The ancient lyrics have nothing to with the fact that the melody and the chord progression are quite similar. If the The Big 3 had taken it to court ,the arranger had to pay. Besides ,the arranger let Mariska , (who's voice attracked the attention) pay for her play back performance, not very friendly. A double rip -off in regard to this song.
one of best bands in the world immortal, the shoking blue and Mariska Veres..I miss your
Can UA-cam look into subtitles? I don't speak Dutch.
listen , i allways tought that the intro was stolen by pinball wizard ( who ) but when you hear big 3 , you can hear clearly that pinball wizard is stolen by big 3 , where is the end :-)))))
Nothing wrong with being influenced by something, and then improving on it vastly,as robbie and his gang did with that old track and made Venus (and a few more, if you listen long enough they did it a few times!). Many artistes follow up a hit with a "sounds like their last one" track. No shame in giving Joe Public what they want.
"They did it a few times!" And why that does not make van Leeuwen a plagiarist?
Being influenced by the Beatles is one thing, but copying their music or lyrics is another. You get 7 notes to copy before their lawyers call you up.
And listen to "Fever" by Trini Lopez. And when you hear "Ferris Wheel" and "Price of love" by
the Everly Brothers, you recognize parts of Venus and of Mighty Joe. And the chord structure of Blossom Lady is similar to Runaway by Del Shannon (only at half the speed). Robbie van Leeuwen knew where his roots are.
I heard "Mighty Joe" today for the first time and remarked to my wife how it sounds like "the Price of Love" by Bryan Ferry
@@MrStevecro no not a slice 😂🤗
Btw, did you notice that you can easily mix Billy Jean with the first part of this song?
Now this is my idea. if some DJ makes a hit with it, I'll claim the success and the revenues.
I'm a Shocking Blue fan but this was a very interesting video clip. (and you don't need to know DUTCH to tell that he admitted to being influenced by the melody),I was just a kid at the time but wasn't Venus the first big hit after the Beatles broke up?
No! Actually Venus came out before the Beatles officially broke up
plagerism aside, Shocking Blue gets first prize for best longevity. In Canada on CBC radio they do tune comparisons between groups ... this would fit in perfectly.
"originality is undiscovered plagiarism"
Why wasnt this subtitled no point otherwise we no wiser!
Can you find a similar tune that predates the Big Three ?
Regardless of inspiration, originality, etc., Shocking Blue win this contest because Venus is the best song (even if it was a rearrangement of another) Though there are obvious similarities, different chording in the verse makes it a different song imo. Superior arrangement, superior performance and delivery. That says volumes when you are up against Mama Cass, one of the finest pop voices ever. Venus beats any predecessor in its family tree by leaps and bounds.
Nothing's new ! Interesting comparison of two great songs.
Listen to Steppenwolf's "Rock Me" for the origin of the brief guitar-drums interjections.
Is dit wel uit 2011? Ik zie Antonie Kamerling zitten en die pleegde zelfmoord in 2010.
2011 is de plaatsingsdatum op YT
@@ShockingBlueandMariskaVeres Oh natuurlijk. Het is later geplaatst. Ja, daar had ik even niet aan gedacht.
It's Mama Cass not Gass.
Of Mama Gas... na veel ei met ui...
We love You CASS ELIOT!
The driving guitar intro was taken from Lovin' Spoonful's "Speakin' of Spoken", out of the movie soundtrack " What's Up Doc". Shocking Blue's one time act looks so innocent now, compared to plagiarism monsters as Led Zeppelin or Michael Jackson and countless big names.
I failed to trace similarities
Typisch van Nieuwkerk, mosterd na de maaltijd. Zelfs toen dit uitgezonden werd wisten de echte muziekliefhebbers al lang waar venus door geïnspireerd werd!
This is so typical for the presenter of this show: pretending this was a "new discovery" whereas real musiclovers already new much longer that Venus was inspired by this song...
"Beter goed gejat, dan......" Robbie rules.
Leo Blokhuis may be VERY cute, but, he is not actually very knowledgeable on 'American Songbook' and trad. music. And he pronounces 'plagiarism' rather stupidly.
Yes, but of course you are.
Plagio
Gewoon gestolen nummer door van leeuwen en er rijk mee geworden, net als Led Zeppelin veel hebben gestolen van ouwe blues muzikanten
Who cares. In the older days everyone sung each other songs. Nobody cared. Take Elvis for example. Lots of covers.
Yes, but very likely payed for them or bought them out. Robbie didn't't, even denied it more or less.