How I Save Apple Seeds for Sprouting
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- How I save apple seeds in the refrigerator for breeding new varieties. The method is simple, but very specific. I disinfect the seeds with hydrogen peroxide, dry them off on the outside and store sealed for the winter. This way the seeds stay fresh and plump. They undergo chilling in the refrigerator for months, before they are sprouted in the spring. If the seeds are dried all the way, they must be resoaked, then put through the chilling process for 6 weeks or more. This method more closely mimics how most apple seeds naturally sprout, exiting the apple fresh and staying hydrated all winter in the soil or duff, before sprouting in the spring.
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The organization required to do things in this level is incredible
Wow! That black strawberry looks more like an art piece or something you would see as a decorative element used in plating at an upscale restaurant! Big things have Small Beginnings. Good job man!
Italian varieties all look like these Jeeomine, Red Velox, Zed 1 etc
I just come a cross your videos. And I'm learning lots thanks
Hi Bryan, welcome :)
I wish I thought of this sooner, but have you ever considered selling seeds of intentionally crossed apples...still inside the apple? You do an excellent job of describing flavors and textures, but being able to actually taste some of these new varieties would be super exciting. I bet if you offered a few in an auction format you would see enthusiasm on par with the scionwood auction this past spring. I guess the only potential roadblock would be agricultural regulations. Still though, worth considering. I know I'd go all in to taste a few of your new varieties.
Never thought of that. I think it would be hard to get the timing right. I rarely have enough of anything to sell a lot of apples, but I have thought of maybe selling some sampler boxes. Maybe someday.
super excited as always about all of this !
That’s an exciting Apple pedigree you’ve got going there. I agree with the other commenter - Black Strawberry belongs in a 5 star restaurant- gorgeous!
Black strawberry is suitable for cooking, but it still leaves quite a bit to be desired as a first rate dessert apple. Thus, more breeding. but it's a step in the right direction. And as a garnish, or used in smaller amounts, it's got plenty of potential. I don't think it will be that many more generations until the red flesh offspring are throwing much high rates of good dessert apples.
@@SkillCult an awesome garnish for sure
Nice options!
From what I have learned from Dr Christine Jones, the presence of microbes in high concentrations is instrumental in convincing the seeds to sprout. I know we want to keep the seeds from dying from rot but they have their own mechanisms for keeping beneficial microbes while rebuffing negative ones. I suspect that being kept in the fruit is the most reliable way to keep them safe with high germination later. But that's a bit difficult to store.
I think that storing them the way I do, dried on the outside, but fresh inside, followed by a compost tea treatment is probably going to prove to be very effective. it keeps them pretty safe from rot all winter, but then gives them a quick, very high dose of microbes, nutrients and water to kick off sprouting. I'll know more after this spring. Tomorrow I'm going to collect a bunch of seeds from the cider pommace just to experiment with.
Put them in small cell pots the 72 count tray type in moist perlite and potting mix 50 50 mix . In refrigerator until they sprout. Works every time90+% germination
Hey Steven, if I want to save seeds from Prunus, should I remove the hard shell before stratifying, after stratifying, or just leave the whole pit intact? Thank you sir.
Leave the shell on. if you want, you can crack the shell or even remove it before planting. I've cracked them in a vice before. You could remove it early, but they are safer stored in the shell.
Honestly never understood how complicated apples were lol but it's awesome I hope one day I can eat them and find them around maybe grow some.....god damn tom Sawyer effect, first axes now growing shit damn u Steven lol
muhaha...
Probably a stupid question-so feel free to say so-but have you ever just planted an apple in the ground and let it rot? I understand your often grafting on to root stock, but would these crosses grow naturally or have they been fucked with too much at this point? Again, I’m genuinely asking as I don’t have a clue. What I know about growing apples is from watching Disney’s Johnny Appleseed when I was a kid lol. Thanks, the cherub looks great. Would that grow in Pennsylvania?
You could certainly do that and that is how a lot of wild apples are "planted". But I grow mostly for breeding with specific crosses, so I want to extract the seed and make sure they all grow. The clonal rootstocks are for controlling size and other characteristics. they are produced by rooting shoots, so they are genetically identical. The dwarfing stocks I graft new seedlings onto, control the size of the trees so I can plant them close, but they may also induce earlier fruiting. It's hard to say on growing cherub there. It might not be resistant to all the diseases over there that are worsened by humidity. We won't know til someone grows it there for a while.
I thought that apple seeds just varied wildly from the parent apple. Your video makes it sound like you're getting really tightly controlled genetic variation with your trees. I was under the impression that most apple trees planted from seeds just end up producing mealy, bland or repulsive fruit. Or am I misunderstanding something here?
That's a myth that was perpetuated by commercial growers to have you think you can't grow at home.
@@familyguyrofl Seriously? I want to believe you. Do you have some info I could read?
With seeds from just any apple you don’t know what you will get. Some really inedible ones some that would be good for cider some that would be cooking apples and some that would be good for fresh eating. Skillkult has improved the odds of getting good eating apples by crossing good eating apples with each other and selecting from the crosses. If you watch his tastings he often gets apples that are not good to eat. Takes a lot of time to get good apples considering the time from seeds to producing tree.
@@PatrickCordaneReeves Watch this channel. He covers this topic in depth, many times. Highly recommended, and has encouraged many amateurs like myself to start breeding apples.
@@ordanjbest I'll be damned. I usually just watch his leather stuff and skip the apples, but this one caught my eye (apple of my eye, yuck-yuck). I'll have to go back through and educate myself. Thanks!
If you can, please support this dude on patreon. He deserves all of our support for the great content and inspiration.
I've always been curious how you do this. Will definitely have to try the compost tea and charcoal method. I got a ton of seeds from you last year and only had about a 20% germination. It was my first attempt though and pretty sure I just didn't stratify them long enough.
I had kind of a crappy year last year too. The seeds should be stratified enough when I send them out. It's more a matter of waking them up and convincing them to start growing. From the little bit of research I did last year, they can go into a second dormancy if they fail to sprout and require restratification. Especially if they get too warm, which was probably my issue last year. I planted late, and it was over 80 degrees many days in the greenhouse. They supposedly sprout faster in warmer temps, but more reliably in colder temps and can enter 2nd dormancy in the highest temps. I think the combo of getting plumped in water and soaked in nutrients is going to prove very effective for presprouting in the fridge and the seeds can be sorted so if any don't sprout, they could potentially be saved over to the next year if they are alive. I've also tried warm and cold cycling on stubborn seeds, with some success, but not great success.
What kind of trees do you have?
You're an extraordinary person Steven. Thanks for all you do.
thanks :)
This is the most concise video I have seen on this subject.
I am growing a few trees from seeds. One is dark red bark and red leaves. I’m anxious to see what the apple is like. Those are awesome. You are doing great work.
Hello, I've been watching for a while. Can I have the title of the book you have done about the hides please I can't seem to find it. Thankyou ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
The book is out of print (I’ve been wanting a copy too) you can find it on eBay for a high cost. But it’s called “Buckskin, the ancient art of brain tanning”- hopefully a second volume will be printed sometime
Buckskin: The Ancient Art of Braintanning. It is out of print currently We started revisions this fall, so hopefully it will be back out in print and digital form next year.
@@TJHutchExotics wow thankyou so much plz give an update on the second one too and I will start saving for that one too ♥ ♥ ♥ I love all the work you do and has inspired me ♥ Thankyou so much ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
@@SkillCult Sweet!
Can I buy some seeds
Out of the 5 "varieties" of seeds I got earlier this year I only ended up having issues with the Pink Parfait x OP for whatever reason. Only 1 out of 10 germinated and that one got eaten by something. I'll have to try the soaking method next time. Fortunately the rest did pretty well, though. And yes, that Black Strawberry does have a cool pattern ha.
There is definitely a difference between different crosses. Some are very fast and reliable and others are sluggish. The worst for me has been the Malus prunifolia, "becca's crab". If I can get those to germinate reliably, I probably we probably won't have much trouble with anything else. I'll know more after I sprout a few seeds this spring, but I'm not planning to grow out very many. I can still save some from the cider press to experiment with though.
Seed genetics in a video, love it !
Wow, great simple tip for getting seeds out to cut where you did, I have been cutting the dumb way for years now and wasted so much time fiddling getting seeds out. I feel dumb!
I cut the other way for some years before I had that duh moment :)
I have a Granny Smith and Anna apple trees, I’m gonna try to cross them and see what I get 🤔
I bought some of your seeds this week. Did they get wintered?
Do you know if it matters which parent is the "father" of the cross and which one is the "mother"? Like pollen parent vs. ovary/flower/fruit parent?
I saw someone already asked that below, nm!
It does matter, but not sure in which ways it will have a significant effect on what.
Hope you are able to continue all of this work. Very inspired to work on more varieties over a lifetime because of what I've seen you doing.
Great to hear. Hope I live long enough to see the best results :)
This is not something for people who need instant gratification.
Or maybe it's exactly what they need... :)
Do you then grow the seeds into scions and graft them on to a mature apple tree?
Yeah, grow them out and graft. I have mostly grafted onto dwarf rootstocks, but I have some on mature trees to test. So far jury is out, but not that promising. It just seems to take a long time, sans more high tech interventions.
Looks like you may have mislabeled the bag at 4:45.
Good catch. I did, but I caught it when I was cleaning up. thanks.
I am loving your videos!! Very inspiring!! Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and knowledge! I would like to try breeding apples in the coming years as well. I had my first try if a red fleshed apple at a neighbor's property this year, and we made some pink applesauce which was fabulous!
I use a method picked up from sprouting citrus trees a while back. Unsure where I learned it, but you just simply remove the outer dark skin (Testa) and place the remaining seed in a damp paper towel or other means of providing moisture. No stratification necessary. I have eight seedling from this past winter patiently awaiting spring, started from this method.
Unclear if the success is with every seed, although it has never not worked for me with apple.
Do they have to go in the fridge? For how long can they remain in the fridge for please?
I have gone to drying them frist, then I resoak and either sprout outside where the temperature is cold, or keep in the fridge for 6 or 8 weeks , then plant them. the cold period is necessary to break dormancy. I seem to be having better luck drying them first though.
@@SkillCult Thank you. Between now and next spring is about 7 months. Do you think already sprouted seeds can last that long. Appreciate your feed back. Subscribed
@@themillionairesgroupaxenic1515 No, plant those now in pots and keep them in the house for the winter. Just make sure they get enough light and don't dry all the way out.
@@themillionairesgroupaxenic1515 replying from another account...
I had a random apple sprout in my strawberry row, it reminded me of your work. I hope it continues, I might just have to bid on seeds myself.
For optimal germination, you need moist cold. Simply being in the fridge is usually not sufficient to lift dormancy if the seeds are dry. Using a paper towel, vermiculite, sand, or other other such means to keep the seeds moist (not too wet, you can drown them) will typically lift the dormancy in about 90 days for apples. After that you can put them in trays and germination should be rapid and uniform, without any kind of fancy treatment. Fertilization is not recommended on young seedlings, they neither have the need nor ability to absorb a lot of nutrients, and that just favors algae which in turn favors the development of gnats. It's also easy to use too much and kill the seedlings through excessive salinity.
I find that having the seeds damp in any way for months is risky. I also have to ship seeds and don't know what they will go through after I've had them. I think the system of drying off the oustide only, then soaking in nutrient tea, and sprouting in the fridge is probably going to work well. We'll see this year how it goes. From last years experiment, it appeared that vernalization was not the problem and they just need a kick start of water and maybe nutrients to flip the switch. Germination was probably in the high 90s and very fast.
@@SkillCult Moist stratification is the standard for the germination of most perennials in the horticulture industry. There are multiple ways to achieve it with each their pros and cons, and the length will vary depending on the species. Most species will germinate readily after 6 to 8 weeks of stratification. Some, especially trees, are reputed to take longer. For apples, it typically takes about 90 days. The exact number of days can fluctuate depending on genotype and stratification method (temperature and presence of various molecules like nutrients or hormones).
For shipping and storing, seeds should absolutely be kept dry, yes. But I don't think that keeping them in the fridge actually does much, if anything. I can't exclude the possibility that apples are the oddball in this regard, but in general, dry cold doesn't alleviate dormancy. You've stated that some people that got seeds from you had trouble getting them to germinate, this is probably the main cause, that their seeds never underwent proper stratification. That they do get /some/ germination is not a very good indicator that stratification occured, in many species you can obtain (poor) germination without doing the "necessary" stratification. In some species that are believed to require stratification, it's really just a question of needing a very long time to germinate, and the cold isn't actually needed, though often useful to keep germination more uniform. I do get the impression the moist cold helps apples a lot, though, compared to transitioning them abruptly from dry cold to moist warmth. Which would explain your greater success when sowing in damp charcoal in the fridge.
There are some risks to keeping the seeds damp for months, but they are fairly marginal, and depend on the technique. First of all, the seeds should be sanitized to prevent pathogens from their hull proliferating in these conditions. You use hydrogen peroxide, I use an ethanol+bleach mix, probably doesn't really matter much. What you use next can also bring in mould and stuff, though. Towels are pretty favorable to mould. Personally that's still what I preffer, though. I change them now and then, as needed, and the mould doesn't really attack the healthy seeds unless you let it get way out of hand. This is less of a concern with stuff like perlite, though. The advantage of a damp paper towel in a ziploc is that it takes no space, you can see the status of germination, and you don't damage early sprouting seeds when taking it out, hence why I personally preffer it. As soon as the radicle starts peeking at the tip of the seed, doesn't even need to be extending, the seed is ready to germinate without any additional treatment.
I'm not saying that your methods are wrong, you got your seeds to germinate and that's what matters, but if the people getting the seeds from you have a hard time, they might need a more reliable yet simple germination protocol to help them out.
@@dominic_hj Thanks for the reply. I guess I've always gone on the assumption that the natural moisture in a fresh seed is adequate for the chill period, and still suspect it probably is. But it may be more complicated than applying simple rules if there are multiple factors. It's not uncommon to find seeds sprouting in stored apples, at least in some varieties like pink lady. I might do some experiments sprouting seeds from apples that have been hanging outside in the cold this winter as they should have adequate vernalization if the natural moisture in the seed is adequate. I think my main issue in the past may have been secondary dormancy, from planting seeds late in a warm greenhouse. I only found out about that phenomenon recently. I've used a few substrates to keep moisture in the bags in the past and sprouting was common late in storage. But mold and rot was also pretty common. I don't use paper towels for scions or seeds, just because of the propensity to mold. I do use them for for germination tests, but it is often molding by the end of the test. wood chips seem much more resistant. I still sometimes get mold in the bags with a peroxide clean and new bags. This year I started using a very light dusting of sulfur, which I'm pretty sure will completely take care of that. If I can get my cold storage with a dry seed coat, followed by activation with water or nutrient tea, to work consistently, it is the ideal scenario, since it allows long, safe storage combined with chill time, and then activation at any time. Most seeds are stored for quite a long time before they are sent out and then usually longer by the recipient. The obvious experiments seem to be, soaking in compost tea after storage of fresh seeds with dry seed coats. A comparison group of the same soaked in plain water. And soaking and sprouting winter apples right out of the apple. If any or all of those work consistently, problem solved. totally dry seeds are another animal as far as I know, and need to be re-soaked and vernalized. From the little I've read, seeds that have entered a second dormancy may need a second vernalization.
Can I use seeds from a store bought apple. An plant them in the spring March r April
You can. At least use an apple you really like though. If you control both parents, then you can stear the process in a certain direction.
@@SkillCult you do amazing work with the apples. More interesting to me the tanning of hide to make fine leather
what's the peroxide supposed to be for?
the seeds I managed to sprout I just threw in the ground in the fall and they came up in the spring.
For storing in the fridge fresh, it helps knock back the fungus and bacteria.
@@SkillCult do you mean just for when you intend to sprout them or do you not let your seeds dry out?
I don't have much luck with the cold stratification in fridges, things just seem to rot for me. maybe because I don't do the peroxide treatment, but I like to just let nature do it's thing :P
@@kingjames4886 I store them very dry on the outside, but still green. This year, I might dry everything, just to simplify storage and shipping. I've had mixed results with stratification and sprouting in the fridge. Best luck I've had has probably been storing fresh, but planting out very early, like early to mid winter in the unheated greenhouse to stratify and sprout slowly in the natural cold. rotting is usually from storing too wet, or on wet paper. Damp sawdust or something like that is safer, but still risky.
I have no problem getting seeds saved and stratified in a moist paper towel in a zip block bag to sprout in my refrigerator by the time spring comes. I would just lightly wash them. I read letting seeds dry extended the time it takes to sprout for some seeds species. Even if mold grows in my baggies, the little bit of mold does not kill them.
I've had seeds mold and rot quite a bit in wet storage. But that is from doing a lot of batches of seeds over the years. the benefit of cleaning and drying off the outside is that they store and ship much more reliably. I think it just needs to be combined with being swelled and started in the right conditions when the time comes. the seeds are still fresh inside, and will sometimes start to germinate in the fridge, but less so than if stored in more damp conditions. I think by the end of this year, I'll show that this will be a good system for reliably safe storage, followed by a quick start to germination. It sucks to have a large batch of seed start growing mold and rotting, especially when they embody all the work of intentional cross pollination. Short of drying, I hope I'll have a pretty solid solution to the problem without using chemical intervention like fungicides. We'll see.
Those apples are gorgeous!
Have you noticed any trend in seedling traits for seed A x pollen B vs seed B x pollen A? Do the seedlings tend to more resemble the seed or pollen parent, or is it pretty random?
I have not paid a lot of attention to the limited data I have on that, and it would be very limited so far. There are dominant and recessive traits and probably mom vs. pop tendencies for different traits. With most things, that is true, so for instance, you might be more likely to get the shape or skin color etc from the pollen v.s seed parent. A lot of that information is surely available if you cared to look it up. I try to avoid the genetics part of it and use the least informed dumbest logic possible just to see what happens if I don't avail myself of any of that. But I may extract some of my own data on that at some point. I do have crosses in both directions of some, though not a ton.
@@SkillCult Thanks! I'm going to try to look that up and see what I can find.
Thank You!
I've been super lucky with my seeds planted in winters the last few years, but will definitely give the manure tea method a go for my spring and summer planting!
I was also pretty interested in your seed extraction method, and it turns out to be similar to my own. I do exactly the same, but cut from top to bottom, instead of along the side, probably because I'm always collecting from a edible amount of apples and like my apples in wedge slices 😂
Great video as always, and will keep an eye out for when the seeds go up for sale!
If you use manure, make is very, very dilute. I used home made compost, but even some potting mix soaked in water might do okay. Maybe even a rich humus. I'm not sure how important the nutrients v.s. the signal that they are in nutrients and soil is, but my theory is that we are giving them the signal that there is enough water and the nutrients are available, so it's time to grow. Seemed to work remarkably well. Just the extra water may play a large role too.
10* You definitely need to get more patronage and a larger acreage (and buildings - grow houses, etc) starting an industrial-like CA state Zaiger process for creating new apple and crab apple cross-species - much like all of the now common grocdery store Zaiger plumcots, pluots, etc.
Fortunately, apples seem to hybridize readily. I think something like a pear/apple cross would be challenging. My main interest with apples is along the lines of continuing to make crosses and some risky crosses with wild and crab species, for F1s and distributing those genetics via seeds, pollen and scions so they can be moved forward by more breeders. And yes, I will take more patronage :)
@@SkillCult I was just mentioning crabs and apples - for dynamic crosses for taste, flavor, aroma, texture, color, skin, anti-scab, anti-cracking, specialized early - late maturation, ....
I've been thinking about your project. I've gotten interested in natural dyes for wool and there's a really nice red/orange/burgundy you can get from the bark of fruit trees. I wonder if your really red apples have a corresponding really red pigment in the bark? Because red dyes are hard to find natural sources for, that could be another use for your trees. If you get really bored this winter, what you'd do is soak the bark in water for about a week (I'd take it from stuff I pruned off the trees), then simmer it for about an hour at not-quite a boil. Then simmer natural fiber like wool, silk, or cotton for an hour then turn off the heat and let it sit overnight and you'll see what you get. It can be surprisingly intense. You use equal parts bark and fiber to dye, tho they say the inner bark alone makes a better dye.
Some of the more primitive red fleshed apples have red bark, cambium and wood, so maybe those? I don't grow many of those though or breed with them much. I've used may pole a little bit. Also a rootstock I use a lot, bud 9, has red throughout.
ПЕРВАЯ!)
Love the channel.
What works well for me is to stratify using paper towel method, then transferring the towel out of the baggie in the fridge straight into an upside down mason jar on the counter. Extremely fast and almost 100% germination.
thanks. are you using dry or fresh seed? How long do you stratify?
Are you able to post seeds to the UK? I'd love to buy black strawberry seeds to experiment with!
Yes. We may have to work something out when it's time. My shopping cart doesn't do international transactions I don't think.
Also will you be selling the Saffron Crocus or the San Pedro cactus this year? Thanks!
No Saffron unfortunately. that will only happen about every 5 or 6 years if I plant a new bed wherever I end up. But I have TONS of cactus. Lots of interesting crosses. I should have some on the skillcult site, or I might just put them on my new project site called team wachuma, which should be operational soon. I'm just finishing up making my cactus selections and then I have to count, catalogue and list them all.
Cool info thanks! is the peroxide thing safe for other seeds as far as you know?
I would think so. I have not really seen it damage plant tissues that I could tell. but I would keep exposure short just in case. Most seeds are stored dry, so it doesn't really matter. I only do it, because I'm keeping them still green and fresh.
The Sweet16 trees I'm growing finally fruited this year and the tasting experience was very rewarding. The cherry flavor was most definitely noticeable. Trees have only 3 years of growing on B9 rootstocks. Looking forward to trying them next season again. The Sweet16 is a good parent choice for your experiments.
I find that it responds well to care. Mine this year and in other drought years, tend to taste just like a strong anise flavor that is unpleasant. I was just commenting in a new video that the sweet 16 crosses I did in 2013 are not throwing very promising offspring. I think some apples tend to throw a lot of good progeny and some don't for unknown reasons. I really want that spicy cherry flavor in other apples though! I did get a really good Cherry Cox offspring that has the cherry flavor, so that is promising, though most of my Cherry Cox offspring have not been good.
@@SkillCult My location also has been very very dry the last 3 growing seasons, I wish I could afford an irrigation system for my orchard trees but that’s not practical with the costs that would be associated with the drilling of the well, installing a pump and doing all the plumbing of all the irrigation lines. I also have Frostbite, and Fireside that came from the University of Minnesota breeding program in my orchard. I haven’t tried either of those yet. Have you thought about working with HoneyCrisp for your breeding program?