The New "Official" Melee Tier List
Вставка
- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- PGStats has put out their Super Smash Bros. Melee tier list and called it the 13th OFFICIAL Melee tier list. But should it actually be called the newest official tier list?
Watch Live on Twitch: / tophbbq
Twitter: / toph_bbq
edited by / c0rnflake1
Outro: • Okami - The Tribe Of H...
#SmashBros #TierList #tophbbq
Doc is top tier cause I like to combo into his forward air
sound logic
Objectively correct
It was ice cold completely neglecting to mention Hugos dedication to Samus.
Nah, he's staying with Samus totally on sunken-investment fallacy, and doesn't really believe in the character that much. He talked about it a while back. Idk if he picked up a new character since then, but I think he was open to the idea, and even discussed it with his sponsor.
Not only that, but he also meant conmitment with consisten results. Don't get me wrong Hugo has been weel ranked in the past, but for the last decade he has merely been top 50 with some shaky performances
@@tsukimaru131 He was #15 just 3 years ago I swear the memes broke people's brains
@@tsukimaru131 He beat Leffen not so long ago. Not a consistent winner, but definitely a top player.
@@KuhEssen not just Leffen, but Amsa and IBDW as well, he has a tendency to beat 1 really good player every year
toph talking about his purple smashboards username has the same energy as my brother talking about wow and how he was the best on his server back in 2005 lmaoo
I've played MTG, Smash, and bunch of other games with variety in character/deck/whatever choice, and from first-hand experience I feel like the psychological reasoning for people being upset both about under- or over-rating their character can be explained as follows:
-People who get upset about their character being over-rated often want less accountability for their losses. If your character is at X spot and you lose to a character a few spots down on the tier list, the implication is that you got outplayed. Sometimes it's more complicated than that (ie matchup-specific dynamics), but it generally comes down to seeking an excuse for losing. I think in Melee it's not surprising that a lot of fox players are like this since the character is perceived as an S+-tier character when in actuality he's probably best in the game by only a small margin. Because there's a sliver of truth there, it's an easy place to escape to to protect your ego.
-People who get upset about under-rating their character (and I speak from experience here) often don't want to see the investment or attachment they have to a particular character jeopardized. Thus, they might try to put up results as a form of receiving external or internal validation of their investment/attachment.
To be clear, this is my personal explanation for these phenomena, I'm no expert psychologist. But this is my personal experience both from first-hand experiences and observing others, and it tracks imo.
8:46 I can just imagine hugs balled up in a corner crying
Well, that’s the point, right?
Nobody had the ‘gumption’ to survey 60-70 top players for so many years, but PG did.
And given how many top players were surveyed to make this possible, I think it’s appropriate to call it official.
Yeah man. I've been so annoyed that it's not been updated. This is so great. A lot of people go on and on about "This was the last official one? Pssshhh so inaccurate; wow." So glad for this.
@@Pslamist people will still call it inaccurate
Hows it official though it's subjective and few players were interviewed
@@pirateclick1d169 - How is the top 60 "few"? If anything, it's more accurate for not including scrubs.
@@Pslamist im talking about the whole community, not those that got lucky enough to get sponsors/ability to go to tournaments
I love how you said “OH SHIT” on Zains Roy and Big Leff’s Mewtwo lmao
Sounds exactly like the "Oh shit a rat" guy lol
Best part
Official tier lists are nice exclusively as a way of viewing the history of a communities character opinions as informed by the meta and results, I like having a series of official tier lists chronologically for that reason
I don't think the "Up-Players" feel like their accomplishments aren't being acknowledged. I think that they play their character because they feel it's the best, and they feel they understand that better than everyone else because they've put more time than anyone else into that character's matchups.
Yeah this definitely seems like the answer to me, I think a lot of it comes down to people who like the theory side of the game vs people who like the satisfaction of their in game abilities if that makes sense. If you're a theory player you're probably going to be more of an up player since your enjoyment comes from the analysis of the characters and the character you play is the one you've convinced yourself is the best for your skillset. A great example of this is in the pokemon community, since pokemon is like pretty much entirely theory based when you look at their tier list discussions everyone is talking up the characters they're most known for playing.
That opening monolog on "official" tier list hits different now.
None’s tierlist is still the most accurate tier list
There’s a third type of player Toph. The player that feels that they play the best with their character. They don’t complain about the weaknesses and can’t definitively say their character is the best.
Hey babe, wake up. New Toph vid dropped
I totally agree with your points on recency biased, and there’s no better example then Doc. I personally think he is tied with Yoshi but because Shroomed switched and Franz isn’t getting enough results he’s under appreciated
It is interesting what Toph says about samus mains not really loving their character that much. I've always experienced that samus mains play and love samus because they loved the hell out of metroid games when they were younger (myself included). I think plup said super metroid is his favorite game and when ultimate came out, he stated he just wanted to be the best Ridley main lol. However, I dont think duck and hugs are this way. That love for a character is hard to come by. I haven't met many people that main their character in melee because of their affinity for the character and their games as a youngster.
Maaaan you really did your boys hugs like that
Hey Toph, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts in a meta-discussion on construction of tier lists: how you think they should be constructed, what the tiers mean to you, value of sub-tiers, etc
The main tier list that got me thinking about this stuff is Melee's 11th tier list, notable for only having S/A/B/F tiers, and having the top 8 characters all in S tier. I think this tier list has valid criticisms, like maybe it doesn't make sense for its S-tier to be so huge (saying Fox/Falco have the same viability as Falcon/Icies), or for its B-tier to have Zelda/Roy/Mewtwo and also DK/G&W/Links. It's hard for me to recall the 2013 meta, but both are cases where I think it is fair to say the tiers are too large and gloss over character strengths too much.
But at the same time, does it matter if Falcon/Icies are in the same group as the space animals if they were all among the only characters to have widespread success? And also, who cares if Zelda is in the same tier as Link when each is about as close to winning a major as Bowser is? I see Brawl tier lists with a million tiers and wonder what the point is in ranking characters below B-tier, who cares about the placement of Lucas or Ike when they have about as much of a chance of getting Top 8 as Ganondorf?
I agree with Toph about PG and their OFFICIAL tier list
This is sick, but it would've been way more sick (and valid) if PG and the others included the SmashBoards Backroom on it. PG is trying to find some footing and stepping up in some good ways where others aren't, but I'd like to see it more "hand-in-hand" with the community, rather than trying to spearhead efforts on their own. Still, a great initiative.
The up-players are thinking "they put my character so low on the list because they can't see his potential like I do. I'll just have to show them what I see in *insert character here*"
I like to think of myself as more of a person from the ginger camp, mostly because I like to look at my character as having untapped potential that I can still discover.
Amen brother. Great mindset
So, I have a tier list idea that could, maybe, possibly remove SOME of the subjectivity that naturally comes with people making tier lists based on... whatever metrics they decide on. The idea is essentially to have the ultimate metric of the tier list be matchup spread weighted by matchup frequency.
How matchup spread would be calculated: Have the current top 1-2 players of EACH character in Melee fill out a roster-wide matchup chart for their main (e.g. Zain would fill out Marth's mu chart, Hbox/2Saint could do Puff's, Mango Falco's, aMSa Yoshi's, etc.) on an x/(100-x) scale. So if Zain were to do Marth's, he could hypothetically fill out the Marth-Fox mu as 57/43, the Marth-Falco at 51/49, the Marth/Pichu at 82/18, etc. This way, essentially two relevant top player opinions would contribute to each matchup analysis (as Zain would share his thoughts on Marth-Falco while Mango would share his on Falco-Marth, so the mu spread for those two characters would be taken as the average between Zain and Mango's (admittedly still subjective but at least well-informed and quantified) numbers).
How matchup frequency would be calculated: This one is trickier, because Slippi character usage stats likely wouldn't be useful (if they even exist) because of character trends there being different compared to actual tournaments (e.g. Roy is currently popular on Slippi). So my next thought was to count up how many top 64 appearances a character has had since 20(whatever year. 07? 13?)--with maybe counting top 8s doubly--and use those as weights for each mu. For example, if Fox has had 500 appearances in top 64s but Ganondorf has only had 50, every character's Fox mu would count 10 (500/50) times as much as their Ganon mu, since Fox has proven to be that much more relevant to the Melee meta. Yes, this would ultimately HEAVILY weigh the most popular characters' matchups way more than Bowsers' and Ness', for example, but that's kind of the point here. The point of having matchup frequency serve as a weight is to put more emphasis on the matchups that have mattered more throughout Melee's history.
How would the math work from here exactly? I'm not sure yet, but it can definitely be done (I know someone out there would know how!). But basically, once every character has their weighted values set, the goal would be to boil them down to one number in order to effectively rank each character based on their weighted mu spreads, and that would be the tier list.
If you've read this far, I hope you've found this interesting! I'd love to get feedback on this, and even more to eventually see something slightly more objective like this gain some traction. I personally think this could be extremely useful for a calculated tier list that could easily be adapted over time!
Much love!
14:37 😂😂 the edit into it out of nowhere was too good
Yo toph loving the you tube content brother. Keep it up! Also what happened to the reads i loved that stuff!!!
I agree with you about Falcon Toph but ONLY if we're talking about a Falcon who can actually RTC seriously (very difficult, requires endurance) and can tank very effectively (live to 180+% every non gimped stock). And even in that case Falcon is still only like 5th. Still loses the Falco matchup if they're not willing to commit obvious mistakes, probably loses to Fox if they're not willing to commit obvious mistakes, probably still loses to Sheik, goes even with Marth but the matchup is volatile because of edgeguards and gimps and FD counterpick. BUT I'll always give this ito Falcon, he can fuck up floaties with the tank/RTC playstyle.
I'm glad Toph is promoting Samus here. I genuinely think Samus has the ability to win a major. She's got the tools to get the job done in neutral and has some of the sickest tech in the entire game. Her down B mix ups buy her SO much safety in disadvantage other characters just can't afford. And honestly I don't think we've seen any top level player really push her super wave dash nearly as far as it can be pushed. With enough of a grind, a player with high levels of game sense or internal rhythm could make SWD much more potent. And even without that capability, all someone has to do is find or make a song that plays at the exact same tempo as the inputs for a super wave dash. Then at the very least they've got a constant map in their ears to hit the next available SWD window.
Puff should be like 7th he’s only there because hbox
At the end of the day tier lists are for new players who know nothing about the game and want to see if they can win with Zelda (rip) and for longtime players who want to insult each other, so by that token I think this tier list does a great job
we really lived in a society where people said puff was top 1 smfh
We really did 😔
Hilarious to me. Every fox main convincing themselves their character isnt good
LOL the Mew2King callout at the end, I'd love to see a Toph vs. M2K's D-tiers in a first to 10
Toph grinding the content. Respect
the recency bias thing is huge. it's hard to tier anything properly without having data. top players are going to skew how we feel broadly about a character especially when there is little representation elsewhere. tier lists are best as vehicles of discussion for matchups and thinking about the meta and how it shifts over time vs. a static list of "The best" for sure
hugs loves samus to death
TOPH! you are always talking about the gannon pichu matchup so I must ask, what do you think of the gannon ICs matchup?
I really hate the edit at 9:33 where you were about to say n0---
At first I thought the browser lagged, but I was curious about that bit about Ganon. Was hoping for mb a Bizzaro Flame shoutout.
I do love me a n0ne Ganon vs Sheik on Yoshi's anytime though.
Falcon doesn't have the best dash dance Marth does because it turns your model on its side
Falcon, best run speed, second best aerial drift of top tiers, incredible grab punishes, best overall collection of aerials
for sure, but he has weaknesses such as slow aerial startup, bad grab range, limited recovery options, and bad out of shield options. i personally think falcon should be rated higher tho, and i agree with all those strengths and more. he has crazy mixup potential, and can kill at low percents consistently, and you can play him in a really personalized way, you can do wizzy style of guarenteed punishes and reaction tech chases, or you can play it like none, and rely on falcons mixup game and the value of hard read punishes. you can also mix in tons of custom techs and punishes that really show off your unique play style and mentality. falcon really is a great character.
I think Peach inherently drops in the tier list due to wobbling being banned. I was just talking about how wobbling isn't an actual nerf to IC's with someone else, however objectively IC representation has drastically dropped and IC's would wreck a bunch of top tier players through the bracket while Peach has a pretty easy win against them. I think its pretty inarguable that Peach has to drop at least one spot due to this change in the meta, however I do think that most players are extremely unequipped to play against Peach proficiently because she also has lower representation. I actually think Peach is in the perfect position even if Armada was still playing because Armada is just good and can make a barely viable character look much better because he's just good.
Also Falcon is clearly a good character, but he's also very clearly worse than the 5 characters above him.
Samus is a gimmick of a character, and all the Samus mains of the world were banking on match up unfamiliarity. Plup has apparently said before that he thinks Luigi might even be better than her. I think it should be more and more clear with more Yoshi players popping up that Yoshi still has things we need to discover and utilize, whereas Samus is mostly finished and understood while also being much more underwhelming than anyone ever thought in the last 5 years or so. She has some good tools like up b out of shield, a decent yet predictable recovery, a tether, side b auto cancel camping from platforms, and several really good moves like dash attack, down smash, charge shot, etc., but I don't think they outclass all of Yoshi's tools as they have more utility and they're more plentiful. Ask yourself, which character between Yoshi and Samus do you see being able to take a major in the next 5 years? There's not a fucking chance a Samus main takes a major possibly ever, but I could definitely see aMSa taking one.
The tier list came with an explanation of every decision taken during its making. If you had read it before starting to analyze it you could have afforded that confused look you have for most of the video.
I feel like taking Leffen and Zain results to justify Mewtwo and Roy being better than other low tiers is pretty ridiculous. They’re just so much better at the game than anyone who seriously plays the other low tier characters.
These are the same people that ranked Mang0 11th and Hbox 4th behind Jmook
It's weird how people say that puff or peach is still good even if they aren't getting results, but when it's a bad character like Roy or Mewtwo they say that the character is carried by the person playing them. What says that puff doesn't only seem good because of Hbox (and vintage Mango) or that Peach was hard carried by Armada?
There's a level of position and placement to be had for a characters relative power to effort ratio.
Ganon has and earns his place because of the brutality of his punish.
Pichu beats Ganon is like the equivalent of" Fox Marth I'd an even MU" to an extent because it's like.
Yeah you have the tools and potential to win in your own right and you can do things really well Aaaaand you get punished and explode.
The relative reward and dynamic of the match is grossly in the other characters favor.
If you have to make an argument about how perfect you have to play a MU for it to be a good or reasonable MU, then it's probably not a good MU and you're just overcoming the MU as a player.
"those are batteries" lol
I was on the stream but i fkn love Toph so i watching it again.
glad to see some hugs love i was devastated
I'd like to see more matchup chart content from melee
62bit Hero still preaches the word of how awful Bowser is haha
Lmao what are you talking about, fox has no losing matchups besides one character on one stage, everything else is neutral or winning. He's definitely in his own tier
He's still combo food for everyone tho cuz he's a fastfaller
@@seanathan1 Yeah but in pretty much every scenario he has multiple great options. Plenty of characters are combo food I don't think it's enough reason. Besides like puff everyone gets combo'd
*complains about PG calling their list offcial*
*calls his own tier lists from melee backroom official*
*complains about the tier list and the the tiers*
*doesnt read the reasoning*
The plight of the UA-camr.
Ikr. The difference between this tier list and other ones is that this one surveyed the majority of the top 100, not that they just decided it was "official" lol
Such interesting mannerisms. A true nerd
M2K's Pichu is nasty
Ness is the top of the swag tierlist
From the perspective of an "up" player, it's that I want to play a great character, so why wouldn't I pick the character who I think is the best? It's not about the perspective that the ranking puts on the player, just that I legit think my character has great options in every situation, and if it's rated low, then I think that that's inaccurate.
Justifying putting Roy and Mewtwo up because of Zain and Leffen is recency bias too tho. I bet if Zain busted out a fucking Bowser secondary you'd consider bumping the Koopa King up lol. I agree about Samus though.
Then you have people like Hax who were down about their previous main them are up their new main
Up players genuinely believe in their character's potential, think they are underrated, and want everyone to realize it
Tierlists in most cases are terrible imo, I'd much rather see a matchup chart cause in some games there's a bottom 5 character that has an 8-2 against a top tier just because of how their good tools line up against each other like a character with the best aa in the game is typically gonna have a good matchup against a character that wants to be in the air a lot even if that second character is technically "better" overall. In most cases they only apply to top level as well like the way a Fox/Falco can play is very different if they have consistent techskill which is why I play Peach cause she's easy and rewards my natural playstyle
pika is overated, and is actually pretty mediocre imo I usually go yoshi>samus>pika I think yoshi and samus have potential to stay in the meta and pika ~not really~ in the same way., I also feel link and mewtwo are criminally underated characters. link has (the best) projectile game and solid range/kill options, while mewtwo has a great recovery throws nuetral game and matchup against spacies. I personally think donkey kong is pretty bad as he is very gimicky imo not having an actual aproach option is painfully bad.
Not everyone is one camp or the other, Axe for example? Thinks Pikachu is ~ 9th or 10th, no biggie
pika and yoshi deserve more player investment
Toph you've got Samus and Pikachu mixed up. Samus can be invalidated but Pikachu doesn't.
idk man pika does get invalidated by icies and pika and samus both get invalidated by puff
@@kirbymontrey3897 First, who plays ICs since they banned wobbling besides like 1 player per region. Next, Pika can beat ICs. Just land safe aerials between their sheilds to hit nana away from popo, and don't get grabbed almost ever. Last, pika can win vs puff. IMO puff is a top tier.
melee centrist discusses new tier list
Whne they say official i think it is because it is what the average players will think because of the fact that they asked questions
Toph! I thought I was subbed this whole time. We good now
Toph is trying to prove a point that Mewtwo and Roy are really bad characters, cuz apparently people didn't know
TIME TO BUCKLE IN
You are right, its a lot better a biased tier list of a player
Man, I know he isn't playing rn, but HugS has stuck it out with Samus from the very beginning. I guess you were just thinking of good Samus' tho huh?
You only get mentioned if you have skills. Feels bad man ;(
Toph doesn’t miss!!
TOPH !
feel like Toph straw-mans falcon players' position on their character :(
The B+/- and C+/- splits are poorly done
10:08 at 0.25x speed...
commenting for algorithms
The meta changes too fast to make official tier lists. Probably why they stopped making them 6 years ago.
Morsecode though?
*Any good Roy could beat anyone*
Mewtwo needs to be higher
wtf Ness is top tier, have you seen pk flash????!?
poggers video
Why is this the official tier list?
...
It was an average of the top 60 players I think, and their tier lists.
@@Lagoa_real I get that but it feels pretentious to just release it and call it the official melee tier list. Who makes it official? It's just one of several big gaming companies. Idk why they're assuming a position to be calling their list the official one. Just seems a little off.
love u toph
Puff ain’t 3 LOL
Ness is better than that everyone just bad
so sick of hearing about tier lists
So... why did you click on the video about a tier list?
Whoo
algo
Algorithming for comment
you complaining about how biased people are was the most biased point of view