The horizons montage cracked me up. A lot of times I just listen while I work. But you always put something in there to make me stop, back it up, and see what I missed. Thanks.
Instead of demolition, what they should've done with the buildings at Flushing Meadows is do what the Soviets did: create a park that showcased the country's or state's achievements (Exhibition of Achievements of National Economy in Moscow). The Soviets didn't use World's Fair buildings (for the most part, they did use a building from Expo 67 that was disassembled and built again in Moscow when the expo in Montreal was over) but the fact the place still exists today says something. All the republics within the USSR had pavilions, now it showcases only Russia after the USSR collapse. It was a smooth transition
so Disney owns the Futurama TV show now... I think the way for this to come full circle is a Dark ride based on the TV show that pays homage to/parodies the World's Fair attraction.
Seeing people in the 30s marvel at the idea of a national highway system reminds me of when I was a kid in the late 80s and being really impressed by the idea of a "Information Superhighway" that became the Internet. Now I couldn't imagine a world without the Internet just like I couldn't imagine it without highways.
Great video as always! I'd say Rise of the Resistance at Hollywood Studios comes the closest to this idea: Seeing something play out in miniature (i.e. our tv's and movie screens) and then stepping outside (literally) and into a full scale version of what we saw.
London tried the elevated walkways during its rebuild after the second World War. People were afraid to use them as they were a bottleneck for muggings, robberies as there was no escape for the victim. They're still partially around, but most lead to dead ends now.
This is outstanding information!! I never knew about Futurama, Or Norman Bel Geddes work before this. I'm gunna research this further... Maybe see if I can get my hands on a copy of the books he wrote. Apparently his 1932 book on streamlining industrial design was literally called "Horizons." Thanks for sparking in me a new interest!
As an 11 year old, my dad went to the 1939 World's Fair every chance he got (he lived in Queens, I believe) and he rode the Futurama ride almost as often. He really enjoyed going on that ride. When I get my time-machine, I'm making that one of my destinations. I realize it may seem a bit lame nowadays, but, as the ride said, "Yep, it's always fun looking back at tomorrow." I think my parents went to the 1964 World's Fair, too, but I was just a baby then. I don't recall them saying too much about that World's Fair except in terms of the Disney rides (which we ended up riding in WDW anyway). It is fun seeing certain concepts making their way to future rides (e.g. the dinosaur fight between the Stegosaurus and the Tyrannosaurus Rex from the Ford pavilion showing up in the Energy pavilion in EPCOT...and wasn't it in _Fantasia_ before then?). Still, I'd love to see this fair in my time-travels, too. 😁
I was 9 when the Fair opened about a mile from my house in Flushing. We went a lot, a group of kids usually sneaking in through a hole in the fence! Futurama was definitely the hit ride of the Fair, at least for this kid!
Good video. I just finished reading the catalog of a major exhibit on Bel Geddes; it appears that architect Eero Saarinen did most of the heavy lifting on the facade of the pavilion. See "Norman Bel Geddes Designs America."
I so love your channel it is amazing and I Always learn so much. I know you put in a lot of work to do these videos and it shows. They are so well done thank you for all your hard work. Take care
Plus it further influenced Disney's later concepts. The irony is Walt didn't attend th3 39-49 NYWF. Also as a souvenir at the end of the ride, guests were given a button that said "I have SEEN the future!" Yep! That would have been great to have preserved that model.
The neighborhood where my parents live was build on groundfill from the rubble of this World's Fair. I'll have to look for some Futurama the next time I'm spending six hours digging a post hole for a fence. (Seriously, the bricks, rebar and glass are a nightmare.)
So a version of Futurama with uncannily similar themes to Horizons debuts at the same worlds fare as Carousel of Progress, the ride Horizons was a sort-of sequel to; is that coincidence? Might we see possible links explored in a future video? Thanks Rob, a delight as always.
Actually, Futurama came before, this was at the 1939 World's Fair, Carousel of Progress was at 1964 World's Fair. In 1939, Walt Disney was still firmly in the movie business :-)
@@Brandis13 I was referring to the second Futurama for the '64 World's Fair that is mentionedat 6:17, and triggers Rob's spectacular flashback sequence to Horizons. I could certainly have been clearer, although I feel GM should be in the dock with me on this for having produced two attractions with the same name :-)
@@MrDanJB85 Ah sorry. Hadn't finished the video by then. BTW, I've had a book since I was very young with lots of pictures from the models of the second Futurama.
They technically still happen (they’re referred to as World Expos now), but the US hasn’t hosted since 1984. The next World Expo is Expo 2025 in Japan.
This is so interesting! I love learning about the different World's Fair attractions. The World's Fair was so unique to that time period and seems so strange in our modern, global society. I loved the Horizons reference too.
i was gonna say the horizontal omnimover type system reminded me of horizons but then you mentioned what was featured in the second version.... HMMMMMMMMM
man that's some incredible stuff. It's so easy to underestimate man's ingenuity. People have been building incredible things for a long time. The end of the ride is especially neat.
I commend you on an excellent and informative video. However, i must take exception to your depiction of the 1964 Futurama as a second rate attraction. Quite the contrary, it was the hit of the fair and by far the most attended exhibit. I was 12 years old in 1964. My family lived about 15 minutes from Flushing Meadow and we visited the fair many times over the two years. I rode the Futurama ride about ten times and we never waited less than two hours to get on the lines were so long. Disney’s exhibits were certainly popular, but the Futurama of 1964-5 was number one.
Dude, I love retrofuturism and Worlds Fair optimism! How cool! I had no idea this existed. Would love to see more Worlds Fair related videos. Proud to be a Patron Rob!
2:54 .... but .. my car **is** automatically spaced from others on the highway using radio signals. It's called radar adaptive cruise control and it's standard in a lot of cars now.
Did the Carousel of Progress at the '64 World's Fair include the city of the future at the end or was that added to the ride when it opened at Disneyland?
They also missed the mark quite a bit as to cars would actually look like in 1960: not streamlined teardrops, but rather tail- finned, chrome-laden giants- and let's not forget the Edsel (put out of its misery by Ford in 1960)...
Blue background. Like it better Good thing you got out of Disney went you did. It appears the whole secondary market including travel agents are out of here. Basically what parks? Can I sign you up for Disney + or better Disney ++ for a little more
That was my reaction when we went through Horizons! I tried to explain to my stepdad that it was just like The Futurama of the NYWF and I just got a blank stare followed by "You're a weird kid" (you can see why we did not get along)
This was amazing. The 3 step zoom in-reality ending was ingenius. Horizons had a few similar zoom scenes but obviously didn't end in a real, interactive backdrop of prior scene.
They should have not destroyed everything and re-assembled it at Disney World. They have plenty of empty space to fill there. There are also plenty of GMs concept cars stored at the GM design center that nobody ever sees. They could put in a recreated Motorama in another part of the building.
This was such an interesting video! The end of that attraction is incredibly unique and inspired! I’d love to see something like that idea implemented at Disney or Universal someday!
It used to be at Epcot. Horizons, originally sponsored by GE. That whole pavilion got torn down about 10 years after Epcot opened, and was replaced by some useless stuff that most people don't even know is there now.
@@lwilton Yes I’m sad I’m too young to have ever seen Horizons - but as we learned in this video, ideas often come back in different forms in the future
Well done piece! I visited 1964 Futurama, it was pretty awe-inspiring to an 11 year old. A lot of those things have come true -- collision avoidance technology, adaptive cruise control, lane centering, with much more on the way. Maybe people aren't as easily fascinated today, but those who were got us here.
This was so fascinating! You have absolutely spotlighted “Futurama”....something I never knew about at all (from the Worlds Fair). Congratulations on your amazing editing and ability to tell a story in the most unique way ever!! You truly have BIG talents Rob. Theresa xo
Generally just lost interest in Minecraft altogether, and as the videos evolved to use more real-life b-roll, there wasn’t a reason any longer to use Minecraft Disney footage as a backdrop of the history.
So Disney built Horizons based off the GM exhibit for GE. Disney had a partnership with GM for World Of Motion and Test Track, plus they now on 20th Century Fox. By that extension, they own two different Futuramas!
Sorry for being so critical, but this video is a bit too uncritical of this massive PR move in my view. Futurama did not predict the future. It was a self-fulfilling prophesy! PR and lobby work by the car companies made American cities what they are today. Also, maybe the American suburbs had not existed back then, but if you watch the whole original video, they are actually already being mentioned. The narrator speaks of "separated areas for living and productivity". This is a nice hint to what a massive impact the car industry had on American city planning. Futurama was but a Christmas list from the car industry to the government - and they were given every single item. To me, the model city depicts a true dystopia in which the authorities bow to the car, and those who cannot afford one will have to live in deserted cities right by the big highways. A carbon-free mobility could not be taken into consideration. Also, if you want to see a miniature city like that, there is one in Hamburg, Germany. Only this one focusses more on public transport, i.e. smart and socially amicable urban planning.
Judge Doom: Several months ago I had the good providence to stumble upon this plan of the city council's. A construction plan of epic proportions. They're calling it a freeway. Eddie Valiant: Freeway? What the hell's a freeway? Judge Doom: Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast. Traffic jams will be a thing of the past. Eddie Valiant: So that's why you killed Acme and Maroon? For this freeway? I don't get it. Judge Doom: Of course not. You lack vision. I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night. Soon, where Toontown once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful. Eddie Valiant: Come on! Nobody's going to drive this lousy freeway when they can take the Red Car for a nickel. Judge Doom: Oh, they'll drive. They'll have to. You see, I bought the Red Car so I could dismantle it.
Of course that wasn't really a Futurama in the sense of predicting an age that hasn't happened yet. It was an artistic snapshot of what really happened 40 years in the past, for the story authors.
There was an awful lot of predicting going on in the 1939 NYWF that actually came to pass. Futurama is the flashiest, but there was all kinds of stuff around. For instance over in the Electric Farm exhibit (showing how much nicer life on the farm will be once electricity not only comes to town but then goes out in the country to the farm) there was the Rotolactator. This was a carousel for cows while they were being milked. You only needed a hand to get the cows to step into their milking stalls one at a time, a hand to connect the milking machine, and a hand to get the cows to leave the stall as each had had its turn around the milker. That was opposed to how cows were really milked in 1939, which was a HUGE amount of work and drudgery. We have had milking carousels exactly like that for at least 20 years now.
Haha love the horizons flashback
P.H.S.D.
*Look at that, will ya? A few years ago this was all barren desert. No crops, no irrigation, quite a transformation*
*invest in highways today!*
The horizons montage cracked me up. A lot of times I just listen while I work. But you always put something in there to make me stop, back it up, and see what I missed. Thanks.
Instead of demolition, what they should've done with the buildings at Flushing Meadows is do what the Soviets did: create a park that showcased the country's or state's achievements (Exhibition of Achievements of National Economy in Moscow). The Soviets didn't use World's Fair buildings (for the most part, they did use a building from Expo 67 that was disassembled and built again in Moscow when the expo in Montreal was over) but the fact the place still exists today says something. All the republics within the USSR had pavilions, now it showcases only Russia after the USSR collapse. It was a smooth transition
Ge in 1939: 14 lane high ways
FDOT planning the expansion of I-4 in 2021: 8 lanes...tbd
South America: We'll give you 2 and dont complain
so Disney owns the Futurama TV show now... I think the way for this to come full circle is a Dark ride based on the TV show that pays homage to/parodies the World's Fair attraction.
4:05 Rise of the Resistance kind of does this at the end of the ride! It gives me chills every time!
Seeing people in the 30s marvel at the idea of a national highway system reminds me of when I was a kid in the late 80s and being really impressed by the idea of a "Information Superhighway" that became the Internet. Now I couldn't imagine a world without the Internet just like I couldn't imagine it without highways.
LOVED THE HORIZONS cinematic flashback sequence!!! That was a touch of brilliance!
If only the Seaboard Railroad had shelled out $10 million, we might have some decent trains in this country...
Great video as always! I'd say Rise of the Resistance at Hollywood Studios comes the closest to this idea: Seeing something play out in miniature (i.e. our tv's and movie screens) and then stepping outside (literally) and into a full scale version of what we saw.
We need to bring it back. Bring her back!!
London tried the elevated walkways during its rebuild after the second World War. People were afraid to use them as they were a bottleneck for muggings, robberies as there was no escape for the victim.
They're still partially around, but most lead to dead ends now.
Love when you cover World's Fair stuff! Great video, Rob!
This is outstanding information!! I never knew about Futurama, Or Norman Bel Geddes work before this. I'm gunna research this further... Maybe see if I can get my hands on a copy of the books he wrote. Apparently his 1932 book on streamlining industrial design was literally called "Horizons." Thanks for sparking in me a new interest!
we could've avoided this situation if we built conventional rail
HII! love your videos!! thank you so much for making your videos! I have learned so much Disney history thanks to you! Keep making them! c:
As an 11 year old, my dad went to the 1939 World's Fair every chance he got (he lived in Queens, I believe) and he rode the Futurama ride almost as often. He really enjoyed going on that ride. When I get my time-machine, I'm making that one of my destinations. I realize it may seem a bit lame nowadays, but, as the ride said, "Yep, it's always fun looking back at tomorrow."
I think my parents went to the 1964 World's Fair, too, but I was just a baby then. I don't recall them saying too much about that World's Fair except in terms of the Disney rides (which we ended up riding in WDW anyway). It is fun seeing certain concepts making their way to future rides (e.g. the dinosaur fight between the Stegosaurus and the Tyrannosaurus Rex from the Ford pavilion showing up in the Energy pavilion in EPCOT...and wasn't it in _Fantasia_ before then?). Still, I'd love to see this fair in my time-travels, too. 😁
TO THE FUTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never knew this, how cool! Great video as always!
I was 9 when the Fair opened about a mile from my house in Flushing. We went a lot, a group of kids usually sneaking in through a hole in the fence! Futurama was definitely the hit ride of the Fair, at least for this kid!
I rode GM's Futurama as an 8 year old in 1965. The attraction's futuristic spaceship/airplane architecture was what was highlighted in ads.
Good video. I just finished reading the catalog of a major exhibit on Bel Geddes; it appears that architect Eero Saarinen did most of the heavy lifting on the facade of the pavilion. See "Norman Bel Geddes Designs America."
I so love your channel it is amazing and I
Always learn so much. I know you put in a lot of work to do these videos and it shows. They are so well done thank you for all your hard work. Take care
Shut up, baby! I know it!
Suddenly the theme park that named after the TV show from the creator of the simpsons
Plus it further influenced Disney's later concepts. The irony is Walt didn't attend th3 39-49 NYWF. Also as a souvenir at the end of the ride, guests were given a button that said "I have SEEN the future!" Yep! That would have been great to have preserved that model.
Where’s Bender?
0/10 no zoidberg
I saw an automobile once when I was a kid. But, now they're everywhere.
The world went and got itself in a big damn hurry
The neighborhood where my parents live was build on groundfill from the rubble of this World's Fair. I'll have to look for some Futurama the next time I'm spending six hours digging a post hole for a fence. (Seriously, the bricks, rebar and glass are a nightmare.)
Sooo space mountain is a homage to futurama???
So a version of Futurama with uncannily similar themes to Horizons debuts at the same worlds fare as Carousel of Progress, the ride Horizons was a sort-of sequel to; is that coincidence? Might we see possible links explored in a future video?
Thanks Rob, a delight as always.
Actually, Futurama came before, this was at the 1939 World's Fair, Carousel of Progress was at 1964 World's Fair. In 1939, Walt Disney was still firmly in the movie business :-)
@@Brandis13 I was referring to the second Futurama for the '64 World's Fair that is mentionedat 6:17, and triggers Rob's spectacular flashback sequence to Horizons. I could certainly have been clearer, although I feel GM should be in the dock with me on this for having produced two attractions with the same name :-)
@@MrDanJB85 Ah sorry. Hadn't finished the video by then. BTW, I've had a book since I was very young with lots of pictures from the models of the second Futurama.
Ah... ...so now we know the REAL reason for Horizons demise. ...a certain sponsor in the pavilion next door water it gone =)
Very interesting I love anything about the World's Fair
Brilliant! The Horizons throwback! 😍
we should bring world fairs back. It made so much cool stuff, why did we stop?
They technically still happen (they’re referred to as World Expos now), but the US hasn’t hosted since 1984. The next World Expo is Expo 2025 in Japan.
This is so interesting! I love learning about the different World's Fair attractions. The World's Fair was so unique to that time period and seems so strange in our modern, global society. I loved the Horizons reference too.
The picture boxing at 6:47 leading into the Horizon’s PTSD scene was very well done. Nice attention to detail
So by the year 3000 we should have robots with shinny metal asses?
The futurama we had before 1999
That part where you were deep in thought was classic! Great work! 👍🏼
i was gonna say the horizontal omnimover type system reminded me of horizons but then you mentioned what was featured in the second version.... HMMMMMMMMM
Good news, everyone!
man that's some incredible stuff. It's so easy to underestimate man's ingenuity. People have been building incredible things for a long time. The end of the ride is especially neat.
LOOK IT'S HORIZONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
I commend you on an excellent and informative video. However, i must take exception to your depiction of the 1964 Futurama as a second rate attraction. Quite the contrary, it was the hit of the fair and by far the most attended exhibit. I was 12 years old in 1964. My family lived about 15 minutes from Flushing Meadow and we visited the fair many times over the two years. I rode the Futurama ride about ten times and we never waited less than two hours to get on the lines were so long. Disney’s exhibits were certainly popular, but the Futurama of 1964-5 was number one.
Dude, I love retrofuturism and Worlds Fair optimism! How cool! I had no idea this existed. Would love to see more Worlds Fair related videos. Proud to be a Patron Rob!
2:54 .... but .. my car **is** automatically spaced from others on the highway using radio signals. It's called radar adaptive cruise control and it's standard in a lot of cars now.
Did the Carousel of Progress at the '64 World's Fair include the city of the future at the end or was that added to the ride when it opened at Disneyland?
They also missed the mark quite a bit as to cars would actually look like in 1960: not streamlined teardrops, but rather tail- finned, chrome-laden giants- and let's not forget the Edsel (put out of its misery by Ford in 1960)...
I loved the 64-65 Futurama and would get off the ride and go right back on line to do it again and again.
Cars spaced by radio signals -> Radar
Spot on, the automatic cruise control does just that
Blue background. Like it better Good thing you got out of Disney went you did. It appears the whole secondary market including travel agents are out of here. Basically what parks? Can I sign you up for Disney + or better Disney ++ for a little more
That was my reaction when we went through Horizons! I tried to explain to my stepdad that it was just like The Futurama of the NYWF and I just got a blank stare followed by "You're a weird kid" (you can see why we did not get along)
After all of those decades we still don't have teleport. :D The Earth is just one big traffic highway. :(
Interesting. Definite inspiration in future attractions.
Futurama was clearly a succesful social programming project that went pretty well = )
This was amazing. The 3 step zoom in-reality ending was ingenius. Horizons had a few similar zoom scenes but obviously didn't end in a real, interactive backdrop of prior scene.
There are neighbourhoods in Hong Kong with elevated walkways over concrete canyons for cars and a lot of them look pretty horrible!
7:35 aka possibly one of greatest animated series ever. I mean, this show was great back when I was a kid and it’s great now.
They should have not destroyed everything and re-assembled it at Disney World. They have plenty of empty space to fill there. There are also plenty of GMs concept cars stored at the GM design center that nobody ever sees. They could put in a recreated Motorama in another part of the building.
I remember standing in line for hours at Futurama II It was very popular.
predict or influenced...... after all so many people saw it in that time period and how many of this people came into position of power
"Cars would be spaced out by radio signals".
Give it a few more years.
It looks way ahead of its time.
and yet, this NEVER happened,🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Only 8 months for building all of that??????
Hahahahahaha the horizons flashback was perfect
Great content and name
I understood that reference. 😆
Futurama 1939 is pure dystopia
seriously mind blown. loved this video.
This was before lyder
Increase volume please
Not the tv show folks
This was such an interesting video! The end of that attraction is incredibly unique and inspired! I’d love to see something like that idea implemented at Disney or Universal someday!
It used to be at Epcot. Horizons, originally sponsored by GE. That whole pavilion got torn down about 10 years after Epcot opened, and was replaced by some useless stuff that most people don't even know is there now.
@@lwilton Yes I’m sad I’m too young to have ever seen Horizons - but as we learned in this video, ideas often come back in different forms in the future
Well done piece! I visited 1964 Futurama, it was pretty awe-inspiring to an 11 year old. A lot of those things have come true -- collision avoidance technology, adaptive cruise control, lane centering, with much more on the way. Maybe people aren't as easily fascinated today, but those who were got us here.
HORIZONS!!!
roads
This was so fascinating! You have absolutely spotlighted “Futurama”....something I never knew about at all (from the Worlds Fair). Congratulations on your amazing editing and ability to tell a story in the most unique way ever!! You truly have BIG talents Rob. Theresa xo
Welcome to the world of tomorrow!
Why do you always have to say it that way?
Did this channel have its name changed?
Yup!
So, do we know if Disney and or future imagineers went to the earlier fair?
Why did you quit MCMagic?
Generally just lost interest in Minecraft altogether, and as the videos evolved to use more real-life b-roll, there wasn’t a reason any longer to use Minecraft Disney footage as a backdrop of the history.
GREAT videos!
Another great video!
Excellent video!!
Excellent as always.
I love this
This was awesome
So awesome.
hello
Good news, everyone! Rob has uploaded a new video!
Right.. I wanna ride thaat
So Disney built Horizons based off the GM exhibit for GE. Disney had a partnership with GM for World Of Motion and Test Track, plus they now on 20th Century Fox. By that extension, they own two different Futuramas!
Sorry for being so critical, but this video is a bit too uncritical of this massive PR move in my view. Futurama did not predict the future. It was a self-fulfilling prophesy! PR and lobby work by the car companies made American cities what they are today. Also, maybe the American suburbs had not existed back then, but if you watch the whole original video, they are actually already being mentioned. The narrator speaks of "separated areas for living and productivity". This is a nice hint to what a massive impact the car industry had on American city planning. Futurama was but a Christmas list from the car industry to the government - and they were given every single item. To me, the model city depicts a true dystopia in which the authorities bow to the car, and those who cannot afford one will have to live in deserted cities right by the big highways. A carbon-free mobility could not be taken into consideration. Also, if you want to see a miniature city like that, there is one in Hamburg, Germany. Only this one focusses more on public transport, i.e. smart and socially amicable urban planning.
So are we saying horizons is the futurama ride from the 60s?
From GM to GE.
Futurama I: 1940 predicting 1960.
Futurama II: 1965 predicting, what, 1980 or so?
Horizons: 1980 predicting around 2000.
Judge Doom: Several months ago I had the good providence to stumble upon this plan of the city council's. A construction plan of epic proportions. They're calling it a freeway.
Eddie Valiant: Freeway? What the hell's a freeway?
Judge Doom: Eight lanes of shimmering cement running from here to Pasadena. Smooth, safe, fast. Traffic jams will be a thing of the past.
Eddie Valiant: So that's why you killed Acme and Maroon? For this freeway? I don't get it.
Judge Doom: Of course not. You lack vision. I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night. Soon, where Toontown once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful.
Eddie Valiant: Come on! Nobody's going to drive this lousy freeway when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.
Judge Doom: Oh, they'll drive. They'll have to. You see, I bought the Red Car so I could dismantle it.
Of course that wasn't really a Futurama in the sense of predicting an age that hasn't happened yet. It was an artistic snapshot of what really happened 40 years in the past, for the story authors.
Do a reupload on the magical Express and its baggage services and how many people use it and are going to be disappointed.
There was an awful lot of predicting going on in the 1939 NYWF that actually came to pass. Futurama is the flashiest, but there was all kinds of stuff around. For instance over in the Electric Farm exhibit (showing how much nicer life on the farm will be once electricity not only comes to town but then goes out in the country to the farm) there was the Rotolactator.
This was a carousel for cows while they were being milked. You only needed a hand to get the cows to step into their milking stalls one at a time, a hand to connect the milking machine, and a hand to get the cows to leave the stall as each had had its turn around the milker. That was opposed to how cows were really milked in 1939, which was a HUGE amount of work and drudgery. We have had milking carousels exactly like that for at least 20 years now.