I'm not a fan of the weight but having everything bathing in oil enclosed in a little compartment is a terrific concept, they're still too big in volume also.
I’ll go on a limb and say no, gear boxes aren’t the future since they’ll always be more expensive and have lower efficiency compared to typical derailleur drivetrain systems. I can see gear boxes becoming popular on e-bikes since efficiency and costs are less important in those systems.
@@Alm8hoorOW they're more efficient than a muddy derailleur and cheaper long term because you don't have to keep buying new parts. Even the exposed parts last longer due to bigger cogs and straight chainline
Looks to me like the rear fork will not get as much abuse as the front. Much less front/rear force from braking, landing on front wheel off a jump, etc. that would cause the creaking.
I remember working on a double Manitou forked dual sus bike back in the day. When I make mention of it people think I've lost my marbles, but I'm glad to see proof I'm not going mad lol. edit: loved hearing all these old names, it's like a part of my brain long forgotten being switched on again. =)
Got to ride Doug Bradbury's test mule FS at the Moab Mountain Bike Festival in 1991. Doug gave me a little demonstration and turned the bike over to me pointing to a high curb to go straight in to. Did it...and both ends of the bike were absolutely amazing...for the time.
It's a cool one-off, but aside from the gearbox, it's not practical enough to be future-proof. There's no space for a dropper. The stack height is achieved with several spacers on the fork steerer, and I could go on. The dual rear suspension design is terrible and was phased out in motorcycles ages ago, except in retro bikes. It just doesn't work as efficiently as a single shock. Cool concept bike for a video though.
The lack of dropper post alone is enough to be impractical. Cool concept but has regressed so many modern features as to not even be worth it since no one would buy it.
One missed opportunity with the rear shock design on the new version is that they could have made more room in the front triangle for bottle cages etc. because there is no rear shock in there taking up space.
That bike from the 90’s was designed by us (Pro Forx) and sold as a Balance. We (manitou and pro forx) were both owned by Answer products. Bradbury was a hack and his initial forks did not have damping (just elastomers) ours did (friction damper) along with springs.
bradburry was building bikes before answer took over. the balance was a cheap version using lower end parts. it was after the answer take over that the frames started cracking as they where made to light in the wrong places. The marin version of the FS is better at this point as it wasn't build so light.
@@Bimmer_Bill The manitous had damping because they were elastomer. But it was definately inferior in performance. At the time it was low weight and simple. But they certainly were never the ultimate suspension ever as the video kind of implies. They were a compromise for cost, weight, and simplicity. I had an early fork but didnt care for it.
I do have an appreciation for gear box/belt drive. Certainly if I ever wanted to get an e-bike, I’d want that Pinion gearbox set-up. Makes the most sense.
In '91 I had a purple Trek 950 that I loved. No suspension at all and I did some dumb shit on that thing that I'd never try now on a modern full suss bike. Ahh to be young and stupid lol!
I lived in Durango Colorado in 1990. I'm not sure, but I think the person who won the first world mtb, Overend had carbon frame, titanium parts, and a rockshox suspension fork.
I had an original manitou FS, build before the answer take over (handwriten serial number 009, not laser engraved) loved that bike. Greg herbold had once a prototype miyata with a dual rock shox mag 21 rear end. always wandered how that one rode compared to the bouncy rubbers. But the question we all have: has the mk2 allready got a cracked headtube?
Telescoping rear suspension is weird since you have double the number of seals and much less leverage compared to a typical rear suspension design meaning you have more friction force to overcome before the fork starts moving so I’d expect less small bump sensitivity and a harsher ride feeling.
Yes. Though this is actually more of an issue in the front than in the rear, and yet dual telescopes are obviously a pretty ok choice for the front so they'll definitely work fine in the rear as well. The question is just, _why!_ - what advantages do you get. I could in principle see seatstay-shocks leaving more space for bottles and luggage, but not in that specific design, where there doesn't even seem to be enough space for a dropper post.
And back then we even said what the FS stood for! If I remember rightly it was throwing you off when cornered on like berms etc with the independent stanchions having sticking issues when it tilled n flexed?
I whish in the future we will have chamelon like frame where you could program the coloring of your bike. So that you are not limited to one color. But would be able to put any color any time. Any picture or text sorta like wallpaper on computer. Same with the parts. So that you will be customizing your bike looks anytime you wanted it.
The only problem with Pinion is that you can have a significant deadzone in your pedal stroke, especially at lower gears. On first gear there are 13 points of engagement in the 360° of pedal travel, so that's up to 27° of pedal movement before you get any power at the start of your stroke. Even on the highest gear, it's about 23 points of engagement - still much lower than most low-end freehubs. My old GT bike has somewhere over 60. I personally like the gearbox, but I don't do anything that requires fast engagement.
future - no way - not even retro/restmod - aside from the mud sucking swing arm and lack of dropper questionable rear geometry I'd make a guess it'll be flexi flyer after a couple of good runs to destroy the bearings out back
I could listen to Owen talk tech all day! GMBN has found the Mountain bike Attenborough. I hope you guys are paying him well! It's gonna be hard to keep him! To the actual film! Is the bike a bespoke bike? Did Hayes build this as a one off concept bike? Thanks guys 👍
Ooft thats high, high praise - thank you! Yes Hayes group, developed this as a one off but I feel it flags alot of awesome future potential tech! Whats your favourite potential future tech? Cheers Owen
@OwenBikeNerd future tech? I could sit and talk about that all day mate. Not just with mtb. All bikes. I think "electronic wireless" tech is only in its infancy. Brakes might not become wireless but I think they will end up having some kind of electronics connected so they can be tuned to the riders wishes via an app.
@@OwenBikeNerd yeh, most cars and I should think the higher end motorbikes have that kind of thing nowadays. Yes you press/pull the brake manually but are you doing it optimally for the situation you find yourself in, censors and electronics would adapt the brakes within milliseconds to give you the best result. Just like what's happening with forks and suspension already in mtb. If you could imagine descending a long mountain descent 20km+ on the road at the end of a tough 200km stage, the rider becomes very tired and probably isn't applying the brakes in a way that would get the best performance out of them. Electronics could help. But! These kind of upgrades will only come with the younger riders coming through. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
It doesn't look like something that is meant to be ridden. What is the head angle on that thing? Why is it not designed to run a dropper? Is it because the geometry is not suitable for downhill riding?
Only way that would work today is to have an independent linkage at top instead of a 1 peice solid crown same thing will happen as before throw you off with sticking in corners! I remember that bike well haha!
Thats the bike Gee Milner built. I can tell by the fact one of the headset spacers with the emblem on it is not central like most decent bike builders would of lined up correctly when putting it on. One of my pet peeves is when builders are just too lazy too spend a few seconds extra to line up everything.
It's an awesome bike, and a great solution to the belt problem. But Manitou is going to need to design some kind of super short dropper or extend the seat tube. Putting a super cool gearbox on a bike and then not having a dropper flatly doesn't make sense. I also wasn't a fan of the grip shift from the dream build video.
belt drive for winter? Add water, snow, ice, sand, grit, chunks of salt (all normal where I live) and watch those sprockets get chewed to bits in 1 season.
#AskGMBNTech Hello, my TRP trail evo brakes keep making a noise hard to describe, but like they are dirty. I don't think they are contaminated as it looks like no oil on ether rotors or pads. I use disk cleaner and the nose comes back, more on the front then the rear. Could they still be contaminated? I think to try using sandpaper but not sure what grit sandpaper to buy (1,000 grit?). Picture of a system that is contaminated would be great.
Loads bikes like this online to download and 3D print on CNC some guy doing one now testing it but whole frame is the same as the stays in this all engineering bridge works designs!
Do you want to see more gearbox bikes in the future? What do you like about them?
I'm not a fan of the weight but having everything bathing in oil enclosed in a little compartment is a terrific concept, they're still too big in volume also.
Yes, gearbox’s are the future.
A review on the Cavalerie Anakin would be fantastic
I’ll go on a limb and say no, gear boxes aren’t the future since they’ll always be more expensive and have lower efficiency compared to typical derailleur drivetrain systems. I can see gear boxes becoming popular on e-bikes since efficiency and costs are less important in those systems.
@@Alm8hoorOW they're more efficient than a muddy derailleur and cheaper long term because you don't have to keep buying new parts. Even the exposed parts last longer due to bigger cogs and straight chainline
100% yes
I want to see this thing riding!
YESSSSS me tooo
Brilliant, now you got crown creaking front and rear!
quadrafonic
Looks to me like the rear fork will not get as much abuse as the front. Much less front/rear force from braking, landing on front wheel off a jump, etc. that would cause the creaking.
😂
I remember working on a double Manitou forked dual sus bike back in the day.
When I make mention of it people think I've lost my marbles, but I'm glad to see proof I'm not going mad lol.
edit: loved hearing all these old names, it's like a part of my brain long forgotten being switched on again. =)
@@mickenoss same feeling, you are not alone
Got to ride Doug Bradbury's test mule FS at the Moab Mountain Bike Festival in 1991. Doug gave me a little demonstration and turned the bike over to me pointing to a high curb to go straight in to. Did it...and both ends of the bike were absolutely amazing...for the time.
And then the first crack in the headtube appeared 😅
Full suspension plus a gearbox is a traction machine. I ride the P1.12 and it does anything in any conditions.
Dream build I assembled this unique bike.
That's a really cool homage to a classic bike.🎉
I agree, that is a really cool bike!
@galenkehler Yes! It was the mid 90s when my buddy had one similar to this. It was a Marin Nail Trail FRS.
ugh 29". but im just grumpy
Just appreciating the machining and build of such an iconic bike, past and present... Beautiful ❤
The stresses on the rear shock set up have my heart in my mouth. That is spectacular machine work.
I actually have the FS hanging on our wall as a trophy. $5000 was its price tag back in the 90's. So cool to see this video.
@@brockgorman clearly bicycles are aimed at the wealthy
It's a cool one-off, but aside from the gearbox, it's not practical enough to be future-proof. There's no space for a dropper. The stack height is achieved with several spacers on the fork steerer, and I could go on. The dual rear suspension design is terrible and was phased out in motorcycles ages ago, except in retro bikes. It just doesn't work as efficiently as a single shock. Cool concept bike for a video though.
That’s probably due to space constraints inside the CNC it was a solid block after all.
@@PatrickPecoraro I was referring to how short the seat tube is with the design of the rear triangle.
The lack of dropper post alone is enough to be impractical. Cool concept but has regressed so many modern features as to not even be worth it since no one would buy it.
Love zerode bikes 🚲
There is no dual rear suspension. It is a spring in one tube and a shock in the other just like every suspension fork out there.
Owen, cool vid. This got me thinking for new videos; pick a brand/bike and do a documentary style about the evolution of that brand/bike.
One missed opportunity with the rear shock design on the new version is that they could have made more room in the front triangle for bottle cages etc. because there is no rear shock in there taking up space.
That bike from the 90’s was designed by us (Pro Forx) and sold as a Balance. We (manitou and pro forx) were both owned by Answer products. Bradbury was a hack and his initial forks did not have damping (just elastomers) ours did (friction damper) along with springs.
bradburry was building bikes before answer took over. the balance was a cheap version using lower end parts. it was after the answer take over that the frames started cracking as they where made to light in the wrong places. The marin version of the FS is better at this point as it wasn't build so light.
@@dannyheyrman4848 This matches my recollection.
Real classy right out of the gate calling one of the bike OGs a "hack."
Only pair of riding shoes I ever had that fitted me perfect were Answer Manitous, I still have the box lol
@@Bimmer_Bill The manitous had damping because they were elastomer. But it was definately inferior in performance. At the time it was low weight and simple. But they certainly were never the ultimate suspension ever as the video kind of implies. They were a compromise for cost, weight, and simplicity. I had an early fork but didnt care for it.
I do have an appreciation for gear box/belt drive. Certainly if I ever wanted to get an e-bike, I’d want that Pinion gearbox set-up. Makes the most sense.
I like the "high tech" stick proping it up 💚
How many spacers are used? They could have designed in a bit more stack you’d think.
XC
Geez, i wish i could add that chain/belt stay to my bike. Chef's kiss
In '91 I had a purple Trek 950 that I loved. No suspension at all and I did some dumb shit on that thing that I'd never try now on a modern full suss bike. Ahh to be young and stupid lol!
I lived in Durango Colorado in 1990. I'm not sure, but I think the person who won the first world mtb, Overend had carbon frame, titanium parts, and a rockshox suspension fork.
Ned won XC
Greg Herbold won DH on Rockshox
F.T.W. rode/burned-in the course on a Moto.
Thanks
Omg Owen...the future is now...spectacular bike in so many ways❤
You're pretty limited on dropper posts with that seat tube, also my main issue with the gearbox is the supposed extra drag they create.
This is the most amazingly beautiful bike I've seen in a long time... could be also made as a light eMTB.
I had an original manitou FS, build before the answer take over (handwriten serial number 009, not laser engraved) loved that bike. Greg herbold had once a prototype miyata with a dual rock shox mag 21 rear end. always wandered how that one rode compared to the bouncy rubbers. But the question we all have: has the mk2 allready got a cracked headtube?
I lusted after than Manitou sooooo much
Grip shift on a downhill? Idk??
I have a haze memory it was around 5000 DM (Deutsch Mark) at the time, that would be $2500-ish
Thanks for video Thumbs UP
I love when old conceptions gets a second chance on the winds of new tech.
I was surprised when I saw the Schwalbe tires and they weren’t the radials.
Had a poster of John Tomac on my wardrobe wall
Snap!
Tomac was and is a legend!
Should we try and hunt down some of the old Tomac bikes?
Cheers
Owen
This bike looks sick!
I hope it makes a quick recovery.
Combining frame and suspension, BOTH front and rear, makes most sense!
Peça é uma obra de engenharia e de arte, lindíssima.
Telescoping rear suspension is weird since you have double the number of seals and much less leverage compared to a typical rear suspension design meaning you have more friction force to overcome before the fork starts moving so I’d expect less small bump sensitivity and a harsher ride feeling.
Yes. Though this is actually more of an issue in the front than in the rear, and yet dual telescopes are obviously a pretty ok choice for the front so they'll definitely work fine in the rear as well. The question is just, _why!_ - what advantages do you get. I could in principle see seatstay-shocks leaving more space for bottles and luggage, but not in that specific design, where there doesn't even seem to be enough space for a dropper post.
Reminds me of MX bikes of the 1970s, especially factory Hondas
what a beauty
And back then we even said what the FS stood for! If I remember rightly it was throwing you off when cornered on like berms etc with the independent stanchions having sticking issues when it tilled n flexed?
I whish in the future we will have chamelon like frame where you could program the coloring of your bike. So that you are not limited to one color. But would be able to put any color any time. Any picture or text sorta like wallpaper on computer. Same with the parts. So that you will be customizing your bike looks anytime you wanted it.
no no no, that front triangle is machinists nightmare
huge part, awfully long machinig time and one mistake can destroy it all
No test ride? :c
Couple of beauties there. Great engineering.
One second from now is the future.😮
Yes, more gearboxes! Reasons: Mass centralization, low maintenance dependability, range.
The only problem with Pinion is that you can have a significant deadzone in your pedal stroke, especially at lower gears. On first gear there are 13 points of engagement in the 360° of pedal travel, so that's up to 27° of pedal movement before you get any power at the start of your stroke. Even on the highest gear, it's about 23 points of engagement - still much lower than most low-end freehubs. My old GT bike has somewhere over 60. I personally like the gearbox, but I don't do anything that requires fast engagement.
That single pivot point on the rear seems like it could twist really easy by landing a little sideways rear wheel first going 30mph..
Wow awsome !!!
Daaaamn what a piece of art!!!
This takes me back I love it
Interesting that they copied Honda 1970's off road idea. If I remember Honda dropped the rear forks as suspension after 1 or 2 seasons.
future - no way - not even retro/restmod - aside from the mud sucking swing arm and lack of dropper questionable rear geometry I'd make a guess it'll be flexi flyer after a couple of good runs to destroy the bearings out back
I’m definitely buying one of theses at some point
Make sure you send pictures into the Bike Vault, we'd love to see them!
Price? Weight? And does the rear fork work any better? Is it lighter?
Love it but man that whole backend gonna be fun to clean.. love belt drive, that rear sus? Sus!
I could listen to Owen talk tech all day! GMBN has found the Mountain bike Attenborough. I hope you guys are paying him well! It's gonna be hard to keep him! To the actual film! Is the bike a bespoke bike? Did Hayes build this as a one off concept bike? Thanks guys 👍
Ooft thats high, high praise - thank you!
Yes Hayes group, developed this as a one off but I feel it flags alot of awesome future potential tech!
Whats your favourite potential future tech?
Cheers
Owen
@OwenBikeNerd future tech? I could sit and talk about that all day mate. Not just with mtb. All bikes. I think "electronic wireless" tech is only in its infancy. Brakes might not become wireless but I think they will end up having some kind of electronics connected so they can be tuned to the riders wishes via an app.
@iansingleton - oh interesting - fully wireless brakes or semi with tune-ability - maybe ABS style function to max braking power - interesting!
@@OwenBikeNerd yeh, most cars and I should think the higher end motorbikes have that kind of thing nowadays. Yes you press/pull the brake manually but are you doing it optimally for the situation you find yourself in, censors and electronics would adapt the brakes within milliseconds to give you the best result. Just like what's happening with forks and suspension already in mtb. If you could imagine descending a long mountain descent 20km+ on the road at the end of a tough 200km stage, the rider becomes very tired and probably isn't applying the brakes in a way that would get the best performance out of them. Electronics could help. But! These kind of upgrades will only come with the younger riders coming through. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
What is the weight of the new one? Thank you
They seemed to work ok enough for cars. Yeah i like the idea, will give it a few years before we start seeing them on bike's everywhere.
looks nice but the geometry of this bike looks like its from 2012
I want to see it on the trail. Those early Manitou bikes were notorious for failing. You also forgot the Cannondale Pong bike!
Finally, the redundancy of the phrase "front fork" can begin to make sense.
Purple Hays... I get it.
still some of the best
I'm 47 and I hope gearboxes get low enough in price to purchase before I get to old and die...
Is it better to have 2 forks or 2 shocks?
cool concept bike.
Nice, but what is the weight of the new one?
Future without dropper post 😣
They are kinda dumb
@@BonafideToolJunkie I don't think so.
@@BonafideToolJunkie Yes, this bike is kinda dumb. Dropper posts are a nigh necessity for most.
Weak
That bike is bonkers, 180mm travel for me
What is the weight?
Yes please!👍👍
Give granpa his hair back, he also been on the look-out for his glasses as well
Pure Art
Ride clips?
3:41 I don’t see any reason to get rid of my dangly bits that scrape the ground.
Where can i get it
Ok if it’s the future what about a dropper post. Can you get a post with 20mm of drop
Cool bike🔥
Cool but.. isn't a hollow tube stronger than a rod of equal mass and the same material?
It doesn't look like something that is meant to be ridden. What is the head angle on that thing? Why is it not designed to run a dropper? Is it because the geometry is not suitable for downhill riding?
World Wide Web on Commodore 64 ? Like wow man 😯 Fork me....that bike looks sick 💯👌
Only way that would work today is to have an independent linkage at top instead of a 1 peice solid crown same thing will happen as before throw you off with sticking in corners! I remember that bike well haha!
I see this on 3 different channels, but no one drive with this bike 🤔 i want to see it in action please ! 😁
Thats the bike Gee Milner built. I can tell by the fact one of the headset spacers with the emblem on it is not central like most decent bike builders would of lined up correctly when putting it on. One of my pet peeves is when builders are just too lazy too spend a few seconds extra to line up everything.
It's an awesome bike, and a great solution to the belt problem. But Manitou is going to need to design some kind of super short dropper or extend the seat tube. Putting a super cool gearbox on a bike and then not having a dropper flatly doesn't make sense. I also wasn't a fan of the grip shift from the dream build video.
no riding footage???
The entire time, i was like. "ok, surely, they will show someone riding it... any minute now...."
weight of the new bike?
belt drive for winter? Add water, snow, ice, sand, grit, chunks of salt (all normal where I live) and watch those sprockets get chewed to bits in 1 season.
Re imagine?? What a crass expression, its redesign
Aluminium is always winner in my eyes
Why didn't you ride this bike! I would see how it works!
"Gone is the 240g rear derailleur! In its place is the 2,863g Pinion!"
(Yes, I know the Pinion nixes the rear cassette. Just making a joke!)
I miss my manitou DH
In Austria we have a word for this " Schirch"
#AskGMBNTech Hello, my TRP trail evo brakes keep making a noise hard to describe, but like they are dirty. I don't think they are contaminated as it looks like no oil on ether rotors or pads. I use disk cleaner and the nose comes back, more on the front then the rear. Could they still be contaminated? I think to try using sandpaper but not sure what grit sandpaper to buy (1,000 grit?). Picture of a system that is contaminated would be great.
Well it does have wheels.
Looks like an earles leading link fork off a old BMW 3 wheeler placed on the back
Might want to check out the *Madnes Nova* Beautiful French boutique brand.
Loads bikes like this online to download and 3D print on CNC some guy doing one now testing it but whole frame is the same as the stays in this all engineering bridge works designs!
Has the head tube cracked yet??
ride that mtb dude .. please ..