Perils of Alternate Endings | Echoes of the Fallen | Final Fantasy XVI
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- Опубліковано 7 чер 2024
- Once upon a time there was a game called Mass Effect 3. This game made everyone very angry,. Out came a Leviathan DLC together with Extended versions of its endings. The audience became angrier still.
Final Fantasy XVI is set to release its own Leviathan DLC in Spring 2024. Will it make people angry?
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:04 - Echoes of the Fallen
00:05:40 - The Rising Tide - Ігри
I understand you wanting to protect and empower the concept of personal interpretation, but I am truly intrigued to see how Leviathan changes everything, from narrative to gameplay, for Clive.
No doubt so am I, since its coming I'm absolutely interested in what they're going to do with it. There is a lot of work needed to make it congruent with what we already have.
I think you are correct in that DLC1 was cut content due to time/budget. I also suspect that DLC2 which they claim to be 10 hours worth of content was also initially planned and dropped after pre-production due to either budget, technical or other reasons which might explain the bloat the game experiences as they tried to plug perceived time they felt needed to be filled.
I foresee a few possible routes to how they could modify the ending:
- Some voice lines are changed if you have Leviathan or not e.g. when Clive comments that even he cannot withstand the resurrect magic but otherwise fundamentally nothing changes.
- A completely different alternate ending that is clearly expressed to the player as alternate.
- The after credits cutscene is changed to be something that happened in the past as a nice Easter egg such as the Fallen fighting Ultima, Some side character stuff such as Cid and Mid interacting or Cid and Benna
Great point on the bloat, and feeds into how the actors recorded their sessions as well. Ben Starr (Clive) talked a lot about how he was essentially on retainer for years, that's remarkably disorganised considering it must mean the script was constantly and typically studios have their actors for a month tops.
I like this first version, nothing material changes and we still get effectively the same story. I can see the reception to this not being favourable.
The second I'm not a fan of in the slightest, with one slight exception. I would personally enjoy the team providing a bad ending after having unlocked Leviathan, Ultima is fully powered up as well and defeats Clive, succeeding in his plan to remake Valisthea. Kind of like a monkey's paw wish fulfilment, there was a cry for an alternate ending and instead they give a worse one. Doesn't really work from a gameplay perspective as once you have Leviathan you can't unhave it but it would be exciting to see a bad ending unlocked instead. Reinforce just how unlikely it was for Clive to have succeeded.
The third version would be awesome, keep everything as it was and give us more detail on characters that we're interested in.
@@Arkaledion I like the idea of a bad ending but I am not sure how that would work for people who are clearing the game for the first time and don't plan on playing the game again. I was more imagining we end up at the exact same spot i.e. Clive is on the beach but how we got there is wildly different. If they go down the route of an alternate ending I would like it notified to the user so that first time players are aware before they accept the introductory quest.
It could never seriously happen, my desire for it more comes from a dislike of pandering to a vocal minority of the audience. It would be an insane turn of events to grant the wish only for it to double down. If games are ever going to be taken seriously as a medium for telling deep and emotional stories, changing the tales because people don't like it is a step in the wrong direction.
There are myriad stories that I have read, watched or listened to that I didn't like and not for one second did I think it should be changed. It's healthy to be exposed to things that you don't like, but then try and pull out what you can from it.
There's such a thing as a authenticity and integrity, sure the companies making money are primarily focused on how much money they can extract, but there's something to be said about building good will. Yoshida said he wants to make Final Fantasy a must buy franchise, releasing significant DLC episodes that alter something as key as the ending doesn't do that in my eyes. You'll extract more money from the fans you have, but its not an attractive proposal to outsiders to invest in future.
This was always intended the tower was there in Rosaria and the leviathan Mystery was alluded to and its crystal seen from where Jill states she wants to spread her wings and sail to a new area. I don't believe these devs they had a plan and this is its realization. Dumb take they literally foreshadow everything. Leviathan, Clives body not being strong enough, the murals showing the 8 Eikons not 7 serving phoenix and ifrit. You didn't pay attention.
I'm not understanding, I show all of those components in the video. It isn't very good foreshadowing if, when you take Yoshida's comments of "no plans for DLC" at face value, they're not in the game. If DLC didn't happen, what did they foreshadow? Which either makes Yoshida a liar, or it was all cut owing to development constraints, which had the impact on the story.
@@Arkaledion Yoshida is full of it. They don't want controversy about selling another unfinished game. Square has been sensitive post 15 issues. It makes perfect business sense to have DLC specifically with timed exclusives. The assets were in game just inaccessible. Your argument is that they shouldn't touch the ending because mass effect etc. The ending was incomplete Clive did not fulfill the mural prophecy. They should have never had 8 Eikons if they were not planning on DLC it would have been stupid.
This is the other side of the point that I was making. Yoshida lied to market his game, he sold an incomplete product to now extract further money. He mouthed off about XV doing the exact same thing that is being done with XVI. Selling further DLC to complete the story is one side of the issue.
The changes to the ending that is being foreshadowed by Harpocrates is a separate issue. The message behind having the author of the book being ambiguous doesn't need to be changed or interfered with, regardless of whether further content is sold.
Yes it makes sense to have post launch content, I don't understand the position where its fine to pull out critical beats of the story path to sell on later. A book with missing chapters to be sold later on. Typically you'd expect something that doesn't have material effect on the story, like this first round of content. Especially if one of the selling points were that it was complete.
My pet theory is Clive, Joshua, and Dion died at the ending. As for the book, I believe it was written by the Undying who had been gathering information for years and it would make sense with the name too. Of course they'll list Joshua as the author - he's who they served last.
I really like this one, why do you think that they would use the Hideaway symbol? I like it as they're kind of underutilised as they stand, it would be amazing for them to be the documentarians.
@@Arkaledion To be honest, I didn't even notice that. Hmmm, maybe Jote thought to honor the Hideaway with it? She's been there and know that they kept both Clive and Joshua safe. A subtle nod to them without being overt.
@@rdyfrde If they do reveal the author, I hope it is something interesting like that. Jote co-authoring would be cool.
Harpocrates could easily have written his own documentation. Why does that one line have to mean only one person could have written about it? Big events are always documented by many. It still stands that him and Clive discussed Clive writing about his stories after all is said and done. The game begins and ends with Clives narration, so it is still perfectly fitting that he is the real author, but likely with the help of Harpocrates and maybe others. Major publications are rarely written by a single person alone. Clive wrote the book in Joshuas name because he is a truly selfless man. I'm not convinced that Echoes changes anything about the ending, but Rising Tides could prove differently. Perhaps they'll retcon a Leviathan segment into Ultimas final battle and things will continue to fit together the way they were.
In the real that’s true, but in the context of “the great debate” there isn’t any reason for Harpocrates to bring that up without any aim.
It’s clearly there to be stoking the fires of the discussion about the end. I’m in agreement with you about the interpretation of the ending, but the alternate belief is equally as valid.
Throwing in Harpocrates talking like that strikes me as either winding the audience up, or they will go with a version that neither Clive nor Josh wrote it. As it’s the stinger of this first round of DLC, completely out of the blue and unrelated to events in the spire it seems like they’re setting up a third alternate. Which will be a shame if they went with it.
Great analysis but I dont mind them changing the ending if they do
Thank you, and that's a completely valid take. It will be a strange position for people that play the game for the first time when the DLC is said and done.
@@Arkaledion I see a new ending as a good thing as it makes us understand the story better. A new ending will give us something to compare and contrast to. It will emphasize the importance of all 8 Eikons and what that means, vs all but one eikon. We'll understand the lore more based on how the possible new ending plays out
@@zacatkinson3926 I personally would have preferred fleshing out in other areas. There are a lot of characters with back stories that are absolutely fascinating and we barely see anything of them.
Telling their stories would flesh out XVI as well, whereas this DLC is limited in scope. Hopefully it will answer what all Eikons means satisfactorily.
Will Clive become a god? It's kind of what the final speeches were alluding to. I'm looking forward to the question being answered, but I'm disappointed that it is the only question being answered when I was hoping for much more.
Obviously this doesn't rule out coming back to the world eventually, but with the team disbanding it seems like Square itself is ready to move on to the next after this.
Change the ending or not i am 1000% down for having jill to be a main protagonist just like FFX_2
Not just Jill, but Dion, Odin, Cid, Benedikta as well. They've created a world that seems far more interesting than the story they told, although in fairness that may be because the mystery is more enticing and Clive is fully done and tied up in a nice little bow.
While i agree with your points of possibly being wrong on the ending and having a canonical “correct ending” prove my theory wrong: that clive lives, wrote the book under the alias of josh, and created a magic free world….im willing to accept that for a definitive ending. I like having the full story and ending, its just a preference. I respect people’s preference wanting to ambiguity to “write their own ending” per se, but id much rather have a canon conclusion that the author wrote. Just my preference
It's not necessarily the ambiguity I want to protect, but the original intent. The original intent is that the specific answer doesn't matter, Clive didn't care about himself, he had a goal. They showed that he achieved his goal. Showing Clive lives is just so boring and bland and leaves nothing on the part of the player to think for themselves. I really don't enjoy everything having to be laid out, plain as day. The hero always lives and succeeds, and this stifling of creative expression that gaming in particular seems to be victim to; a huge crossover in those that will provide direct feedback to the creators.
Looking at it now its just this ending, but the author will take this on board that the audience can't cope and it will inform the complexity and depth of future works. I would rather be treated as intelligent and trusted to work something out, rather than pandered to and everything laid bare.
It's good to have something that provokes thought or introspection every now and then.
@@Arkaledion i respect your personal proclivity to appreciate a complex and nuanced ending. But for me?
i have a doctorate degree in physical therapy, ive worked incredibly hard to gain knowledge in my craft. For me, i prefer the games I play to take me on a story thats fully laid out before me. I want to know if he lives or dies. I want to see a possibly different ending depending on if you complete the leviathan dlc. Its just my preference, “boring” or not.
@@inzone88
Congratulations on your doctorate degree in physical therapy.
That's the joy of the medium, we all have different wishes.
I hope in time that the medium and its audience can grow to accommodate more freedom in depth with its stories.
That it isn't a bad thing for the occasional entry to come through with some need for the player to think and consider it for themselves, in the sea of others that are laid out obviously and plainly. That the audience will be ready for subtext and a story that attempts to go beyond its own boundaries.
The thing about the "make your own interpretation" is that kitase is quite right: people go too hard and maybe it was not the intention at all.
You may blame me for not having imagination, but FF16 ending to me was not ambiguous at all. Every other interpretation that i saw later, involves imagining something that was not shown and did not happen. So yes i guess everyone can do it but if the developer intends to show you X, and then you imagine "yes but y and z happened after x " there's not much you can do
Once an author releases their story into the world, they have to let it go. You can’t control people’s opinions about it.
If you feel it wasn’t ambiguous, that isn’t wrong. Trying to control anyone’s interpretation of it is overstepping.
People try and argue all the time that video games are art, part of art is analysing the literature and a large part of art is how it makes the individual feel.
@@Arkaledion I mostly agree, but lets say you want to make a scene that shows a certain character's death. ANd then players interpret that he isnt dead because they didnt really show the funeral or whatever. Maybe what the author wanted to get across is important to him.
@@blackmage567 That’s the failure of the author at that point. They have full control until it’s released, if they fail to supply clarity that’s an issue with the writing.
I think Ultima doesn’t use Leviathan because we never free the Ultima in it’s mother crystal
Three crystals had already fallen before the story started; Odin, Shiva and Leviathan. If that were the reason Leviathan wasn't accessible to Ultima, that would have to be true for Odin and Shiva too.
I love the theorycrafting though!
I was honestly very confused by the direction of the DLC. By all accounts, it felt like they should've focused on character specific DLCs. One focusing on Barnabas quest of waloed to develop barnabas, cid and benedikta, one focusing on jill showing her capture and the subsequent years of her torture and captivity in the iron kingdom, a joshua dlc, etc.
One of 16's biggest gripe was the underdevelopment on anyone besides clive, and I was watching discourse on this game, so I know this was something alot of people wanted, so i'm quite confused they are going this direction of wanting to (presumably) change the ending, which is one of the least non-offensive parts of the game.
Maybe i'm being cynical, but doesn't this prove that they were lying prior to launch of the game? Where they said this was a "complete game" and with no dlc in mind? With less than 6 months to (presumably) make echoes on the fallen is very doubtful, and you already discuss how its cut content, it all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth which is a shame because I really liked 16 in some places
This is the thing that is so disappointing, the loudest outcry was for more of all the other characters. They have far more interesting tales to be told.
Even with the Leviathan Dominant, it would have been fantastic to have the episode with them as the playable character. Let us get into the shoes of a full fledged Dominant, let us feel how powerful they are in their own right. Let them cross paths with Clive as a third party and we lose our powers. Have to survive in that window where we no longer have access to our element or our Eikon. Tell the dark side of Clive siphoning powers. Maybe they will, but with their obsession with Clive I doubt they will take that route.
They absolutely were, as its crystal clear both of the DLC offerings were cut from original production. The Sagespire specifically was absolutely lifted wholesale, its why I wanted to show the comparison between being in the same quest step and the world map as it stands.
Leviathan I will give the benefit of the doubt owing to potential performance issues, as XVI was rough on launch and still has hiccups now. That may have been them literally unable to get it to run on time, and they've since decreased the scope (you fight leviathan in a detail less void) or they have managed to make some efficiencies somewhere.
I found it in poor taste to lambast XV as much as they did in their run up to XVI, at the end of the day they were still your colleagues. Now, I find it even more poor. There's a lot of displeasure surrounding XIV's Endwalker, if Dawntrail isn't rock solid I think there is going to be a tenor shift.
@@Arkaledion It’s just very annoying and disappointing coming from someone who actually got intrigued by FF16 because of the world leading up to its release. It had the potential of being as great as say Ivalice’s world with its world building, but it feels very lacking and will continue to lack because of the direction they're going with the DLC (Maybe i’m wrong for leviathan’s dlc which I hope for, but i doubt it). The DLC for this game just gives off the aura of a lazy cash grab when they had a gold mine to cash in on. Especially when in a recent interview, they said after the PC port, instead of crossovers for FF16 like FF15 did, they would rather make characters like Cid, or Jill playable which would’ve helped in their respective character development if it was in the base game. Showing us their movements being slower as the game progresses to show the curse taking more and more affect, etc.
Yeah, their focus on Clive may be FF16’s biggest detriment, especially for me considering I found Clive the least interesting. His story was finished not even halfway through, and everyone around him had unfinished character arcs, or character arcs that would’ve heavily benefitted the story being expanded on. It’s nice that Jill, Clive and Joshua get to adventure together, but at the cost of everything else… It just feels bad.
Going back to what I said, the conquest of waloed would’ve been a perfect DLC for this game. It could’ve injected more fantasy into this world considering Ash always gave off a more “Dark Fantasy” approach even with the little we saw. Whilst the land looked desolate by the time we got there in game, going back decades could’ve shown a more fantasy-esque land starting to be ravaged by the blight. Would’ve seen more beastfolk in the orcs, even more potential political drama as Ash had its own country's if I recall correctly that Barnabas conquered. Would’ve been cool to see. Could’ve shown us more of the circle of malius’ teachings, an important religion within this game which would’ve went to help develop ultima more who would have made appearances talking to barnabas, etc.
In an interview they said they weren’t going to be doing a FF16-2 or anything like that so it’s a shame we probably won’t get a satisfying development of Valisthea’s world beyond cookie cutter stuff.
I’ll judge The Rising Tides for its own merit but man, it just feels bad overall for this game for me. I guess people can make their own stories in regard to FF16 and its history which would be fun to check out, but it wouldn't be the same for me.
Completely agree, Valisthea has been wasted on the story that we received. The concept of Eikons reawakening in Dominants wasted because we never deal with an Eikon reawakening. The concept of the Blight overtaking the land wasted because the lands we travel never get overtaken. The concept of Mothercrystals falling on their own and the terror that would install wasted because we never see a nation really affected after a crystal falls. Even the nations themselves are reduced to a small group of people making them feel like levels rather than entities. Unless the Fallen take centre stage in Rising Tide that entire aspect is wasted too.
So many interesting things were presented to us, but not explored anywhere near enough. Almost like everything that was a planning board just gone thrown in for texture.
Waloed like you say, and Odin's conquering of it would be fantastic. His backstory is almost written like they wanted to go back to it, its formatted perfectly for a playable tale. Could even throw in a fight against Ramuh so we can scratch that itch too. It would be cool to play as the villain before he became the villain, see Ultima corrupt him. Flesh out all three characters, be introduced to some others. See Odin create Harbard.
Hopefully the Rising Tide fills in some blanks, rather than just raise more intrigue without any thoughtful resolution.
I think the problem is that the devs have the Spector of FFXV hovering over their shoulder with that, they tried to make character specific dlc that also put extra things into context that added to the overall story but everything went tits up and the second wave of dlc was canned causing the entire story of ffxv to be incomplete and they had to make all the extra story context that would have been revealed into a novella,
I honestly don’t think rising tides will change the ending. Or at the most will add an extra scene that clarifies Clive’s fate but ultimately things will play out the same Joshua is killed by ultima, Clive defeats Ultima, Clive is on a beach somewhere with the curse running down his arm.
Putting it into a book effectively means it doesn't exist ;)
The thing with XVI is that it has the same weak points as XV regardless of whether character DLC is done or not. The biggest complaints are that all of the characters feel like they're not fleshed out. So whether the intent after the game came out was different, they both stumbled on the same hurdle.
I hope you're right with the ending. However much detail they want to pour into XVI before the end I'm happy with. VII Rebirth is looking like its going to have some issues on that front as well. Bringing back Zack, potentially keeping Aerith. These things are cheap unless they have something to really say about it. Bringing them back just because the audience likes them is cheap. I'm reserving final judgment to see where it all goes, but I'm apprehensive.
the main difference is that FF16's ending was satisfying. Whether Clive lives, Joshua lives, both die or both make it out alive. Everyone went out on a high note. As to the question of who writes the book, both Clive, Joshua and Jill/Gav/Mid are solid candidates since we don't know where the book stops covering events.
There's breadcrumbs that lead to all 3 options being valid.
As for the cut content question, I think if the sagespire and Leviathan were in the base game, they were there in a much smaller capacity.
As for Ultima not using Leviathan against Clive, it is a plot hole that needs adressing.
But all in all I don't think they'll change the prologue, more like probably give more clarity as to what happened to Clive and Joshua, I doubt Clive would change his mind regardless of how much strength he has. Unless it's a what if ending where you face the complete Mythos or Logos gone evil, it makes little sense narratively but I welcome that as a what if ultimate challenge.
On the author, I've never seen it argued that it could have been a tertiary character before - I've always taken it to be Josh is you look at it literally or Clive if you look at it thematically (and if you consider the developer speak of XVI being "Clive's Story").
I hope nothing changes with it at all, personally. Trying to shift things to make people happier rarely makes people happier and makes more people unhappy.
Unless, like you say, all Eikons actually ends up making Clive corrupt. That I would actually really enjoy. Sending a message of just how close to the line Clive stood and how unlikely it was for him to succeed. I would be completely in favour of expectations being bucked in that sense.
It would fix a lot of plot issues like with Ultima allowing Clive to collect Eikons at that point as well.
@@Arkaledion I agree with you and hope nothing changes as far as the gang's fate but the reality is that this is a JRPG and JRPG and folk like us do not think alike
They get attached to these characters to the point where a tragic ending is automatically seen as bad
@@DarkRei7 100%. It makes me worried about what they're going to do with Rebirth.
Are they going to undo that scene? Have they brought Zack back to sacrifice himself to save you know who.
Its a shame that the audience isn't maturing in tandem with the genre, when you look at the depth of story available in other areas of gaming.
Ambiguity (in response to an open ending) does not translate into quality. Being able to interpret an ending differently, and coming to different conclusions, is not art. It's a lack of storytelling/narrative cohesion. Having a moment of ambiguity where one's own inner values fill the void, and then following that up with an in-game evaluation of said values, is art. Art is meant to SAY something, regardless of whether that is good or bad. Good art is meant to say something that brings something new to the table. Making a speach and then leaving the final sentence unspoken, so that someone else has to grab the mic and try to figure out how to turn the speech into a satisfying conclusion, isn't art. It's lazyness. And while the Nolan films you mentioned (which I also like) have a "sense" of "open-endedness" about them, you forgot to mention that they also told a compelling and (mostly) narratively cohesive story beforehand, where their themes were explored and brought to their finality. To that end, the "open-endedness" of these movies are superficial and don't detract from the core of the stories. Thus, a comparison between FFXVI and Nolan is highly unfair. So please, stop excusing lack of storytelling and narrative cohesion as "art". You're only hurting gaming as an artform.
Interesting. Whereas XVI can't back itself up narratively for a lot of things it raises, one area where it did put great effort into seeding was the ending. The fact that players are able to place forward any variation of events of the ending with enough evidence to back it says it was thought out and in the mind of the writers throughout.
That said, the parallel to be drawn with the examples, is that if you're focusing on the characters being alive solely, then you're focusing on the wrong thing. It doesn't matter what happened specifically at the ending, the final scene showcases that Clive achieved his goal, it was all worth it. Focusing on whether he lived in that moment shows a lack of respect for what the character stood for, for what all of the characters stood for. Same with Inception, and same with Batman.
In XVI's case, whether the writing was strong enough to really excel is immaterial, it is the attempt that they made. I disagree that wanting the artists to stick to the original intent rather than performing a redo hurts gaming as an artform. What this feedback does is increase the likelihood of having a more blasé story in future, as clearly the audience isn't ready for it.
You raise a lot of good points but there is one huge issue...In an interview done about 2 months ago, Yoshi-P confirmed that there is there is a canon author to the book. He says something along the lines of "Although we have an idea of who wrote the book, we on purpose chose not to tell the player." It isn't a pick your own ending such as everyone thinks.
A lot of people have expressed a desire to have the ending expanded, and I understand why. If I was playing a 10 hour long game or watching a movie I would have thought an ambiguous ending would fit but for something that is over 50 hours long to not answer the fates of our characters just provides a confusing narrative with no closure to the original plot. It doesn't have an epilogue for our main characters and I desperately think it needs one regardless of who lived or died.
That isn’t relevant, as that isn’t in the story that they told. A story should stand on its on legs, primarily because it’s a poor story if it doesn’t and second not everyone that plays the game will hear general chatter.
It is a pick your own ending because they haven’t defined it. If they wanted it defined no one was stopping them. They left it open, thus the audience treats it as such. If they release DLC walking back the ending to put it in stone, that wasn’t a complete story.
So we’re saying the length of the game determines the scope of artistic expression allowed? It’s a shame if that’s the perspective, and it’s a shame that the themes throughout the story are ignored.
I disagree. Again the dev's have already revealed there is a canon author of the book, there is a correct answer, it's already set in stone, they just don't tell you. It's not walking back on the openness of the ending If they have a specific person in mind of who wrote the book and they decided to reveal it in DLC that would just expand the narrative.
Is it kinda shitty to pay for an extended ending? Absolutely. However, It's unfair to put that all on CBU3, especially with a lot of fans asking for clarity.
Length absolutely plays a factor in this. There's a reason people get frustrated with the ending. It's completely valid to be upset. It's great that you liked it but a lot of people didn't.
@@Arkaledion
@@Stark11582 Of course it’s walking back, they could have intended for the story to be 1000 hours long with life long stories for each of the characters, but it isn’t.
It doesn’t matter what they say outside of the story, as it stands it is ambiguous. There is nothing in the game that categorically states who the author is, and this first DLC annihilates any prior hinting by throwing Harpocrates’ hat into the ring. They’re playing with people. Changing that ending is unfathomable to me.
Sometimes fans don’t know what they what and endings have the power to change the entire story. The Mist is one of my go to examples, if you cut that two minutes earlier the entire film changes.
In all honesty I don’t like the ending looking at it in isolation, but I like what they tried to do with it and how it reinforces attempts made in the story to convey a message. I mainly don’t like the design by committee approach and amending stories because of fan pushback.
With saying that’s a canon author, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a lie as well to be honest. Have to take promotion of XVI with a pinch of salt at this stage.
I disagree with you. By getting leviathan. Clive will survive and have a family with Jill. Joshua will still be the one who writes the book. That part after the credits will not change for who wrote the book. We might get an additional cut scene of Clive bloodline surviving. Like his great great grandchildren or something to that effect.
You current interpretation is that Clive died and Joshua lived as I understand in that case? You think all of the good parts to the ending will remain and the bad parts will all be scrubbed up by the introduction of Leviathan? No consequences at all?
@@Arkaledion I think this is a DLC. I think you will have to have all the side quest done (or at least certain ones) to be able to even do the DLC. I also think this is just an alternate ending. So it is completely missable. The only difference between the two endings is going to be one where Clive survives. That’s it. So no. No consequences at all. No mater what. After he blows up the crystal, you can no longer use magic. Ether will return to the world and humans will loose the ability to use magic. All that will stay the same. The post credit scene is like 100-200yrs removed from these events. So that will stay the same.
@@joshuacoons9517 I'm hoping that isn't the case, as it comes across as incredibly boring.
A full blown fairy tale hero ending. I think that if that happens all of the themes, motifs and messages from the story will be completely annihilated.
The first mainline Final Fantasy with an alternate ending.
@@Arkaledion technically FFX had different endings. Depends on how many Aeons you have that shows up in the Final Cut scene. So you are wrong about that. While Tidus still goes away ether way. Same here. The post credit scene will not change. We will just get a different scene on the beach and Jill will be happy instead of crying. What is with this doom and gloom all the time. It has been since FF7 OG since we have actually got a happy ending. What is wrong with that. I actually hate the fact for the past 25yrs every franchise has to end with the good guy getting screwed over. People wonder why no one wants to do the right thing anymore. This is a huge society problem in the world. When we had movies that ended in a happy ending (where the good guy won and got the girl). People wanted to do the right thing and the world was a hell of a lot better place!
Edit: ff9 had a happy ending so technically it been 21yrs. My point still stands
I don't think a different assortment of Aeons disappearing really qualifies as an alternate ending, but at least that was all available out of the box as it stood.
XVI is a happy ending, but I think the trouble is, people like yourself focus on the wrong thing. There is nothing happier than Clive achieving what he set out to do. That he did make the world the better place, that his gamble was worth it and he triumphed over overwhelming odds to actually create a better world. That was the message behind it, it was trying to impress that your own personal story is important, but you are part of a bigger whole and being a better person can chip away at a bleak outlook. It is never too late.
The good guy wasn't screwed over here, in any way. I guess that because we don't see a scene with Clive having a nice cup of tea at the end its doom and gloom. If it takes for you to see it laid out like that I think you're right, but for completely different reasons. That people need personal benefit to strive to make the world a better place. That's quite sad commentary you have.
I feel people didn't even listen to Clive's final speech. The post credits scene is exactly what he wanted, nothing else mattered to him.
i dislike the ending of XVI a lot, so i`m not as bothered that they would change it, but i get where people are coming from. In a single player game that does not have multiple endings, your one and only ending should be definitive, especially after you market it as a complete game (which is totally a lie considering what the 2nd DLC is about). Cyberpunk 2077 has a lot of endings, so Phantom Liberty adding another one was just a pleasant surprise
It's the design by committee aspect of going back over the ending that I don't like. Maehiro wrote his story and that is the story that he wanted to deliver, to go back over it based upon audience pressure, perceived monetary benefit etc I see as a bit of a slap in the face to his work.
Unless he had written a completely different story and had to rewrite it last minute to accommodate for the cutting of Leviathan and we're now getting his true and original intent. The fact that its being locked behind a paywall is insane to me - it wouldn't bother me at all if it wasn't for so much of the press coverage being "XVI is a complete story", when it clearly isn't.
Cyberpunk is a great example as you say, the extra endings given there were a bonus. Although, that did have its own fair share of problems.
@@ArkaledionI think it's sort of cynical to assume that adding endings is "for money" versus just because a lot of players were very disappointed with the ending. One could also assume that with games like Cyberpunk and Baldur's Gate 3 being so popular with the choice aspect being so lauded in particular, SE simply felt they needed to follow suit to accommodate modern audiences. That all said, I'm not a fan of the hive mind demanding stories end the way that their headcanon writes it - this has resulted in a lot of toxicity across different media in fact.
@@Arkaledion it's really weird how they prided themselves on a complete game, but have almost the same problems as FF XV. XVI goes so little in depth into other characters that are not Clive or Dion, that you would probably need an Episode Cid+Barnabas+Benedikta, Ep Jill, Ep Joshua. The problem with that is the way the story and game are designed its impossible to make a compelling DLC for Jill and Joshua because there's not much to show or do, especially for Joshua who did almost nothing for 18 years. Other problems similar to XV are sidelining the main female lead at every point possible (The first mother crystal mission with Cid, Clive and Jill was as close to character assassination you can get for Jill), side content was poorly presented, terrible time skip
I agree it is cynical, as I look to things like Mass Effect that updated for free, or something like God of War more recently adding an entire new game mode for free. I'm definitely not saying all games need to release content for free, but companies do have the option to do that and buy good favour from their audience instead. Positivity in reception can translate to its own sales.
The complication I see with XVI in particular, is that the PC version is likely to be released with everything attached much like VII Remake was. Out of the gate, people who waited owing to necessity or wanting PC get the objectively more complete version. What does that mean for people's interpretation of the story, those that played the base game and have a rule of not paying further (the value proposition of DLC is never as great as a full game).
Chasing what others have done well can lead down a troubled path, as it is weakening its vision. Trying to appeal to everyone when you should focus on a particular group from the outset leads to something that doesn't achieve as highly as it could. XVI would have been better overall if it had ditched the RPG trappings altogether, they wouldn't have had to waste resources developing aspects of the game that is arguably acceptable at best.
Final Fantasy X or XIII spring to mind with this series as well, both had reasonably sad endings which were then messed with. Reception to those weren't great either, but I guess this time around its a DLC as opposed to a full game. I think if we want to look at games as able to produce mature stories or be regarded as art, there needs to be an attitude shift in appreciating the intent behind what someone has produced. To continue on from the examples in the video, Nolan never returned to Inception and provided clarification on his ending, because that would ruin the message of his film. I worry that trying to appease a minority of your audience will negatively impact what was done here.
@@Arkaledion I feel more than anything, Yoshi's (and Koji's) loose mouth during interviews is what piled so much pressure and criticism on the game. There's a lot to criticise, like the overly easy combat, the fact that it feels extremely derivative in many parts through very overt "inspirations" it tries to copy (the scene with Joshua punching Clive is a 1:1 from AoT), having too many of said inspirations, failing to live up to any one of them, pulling in all directions, and the list goes on in terms of the well worn criticisms of how the game falls short, but ultimately it is Yoshi running his mouth which made it so much worse, from his strawman comments on JRPGs to comments like the one you allude towards.
Let's say that we agree to disagree. While i liked the ending at the begining, the more time pass the more i want an answer to Clive's fate. I don't want to assume i want facts. And honestly even knowing that Clive died would be better than knowing nothing
What is it in particular about a direct answer that you prefer? So saying being told Clive was dead, would you be sad or indifferent? Do you have an feelings about ambiguous endings normally, or is it just XVI that doesn't sit right?
@@Arkaledion I simply want an answer to fate of character that i've been following for hours. Ambigious ending is okay when the story is more like a legend or fairytale ... or characters sucks, so i don't care about them. But if any media makes me follow a character for hours and care for him/her - then i want and answer.
Also let's not pretend ff16 ending wasn't meant to be 'perfectly open for possible follow up' . Any personal interpretation would leave player with doubt. Saying that i hope Square would release new ending for everyone, not just DLC buyers - because 'paid true ending' would be PR nightmare
That's fair. I think as much as it is ambiguous, it ultimately leans more toward Clive survived and passed on the tales. I've softened a little on the ending behind changed, but only owing to people rightly pointing out that the story as a whole isn't sophisticated enough to have earned an ambiguous ending. I will be gobsmacked if they pursue any other route, and completely agree that to have the true ending behind paid DLC/"Complete edition" on PC will be complete and utter nonsense.
That said, Square aren't above fleecing their audience at any opportunity so I'm expecting it.
I hated the ending… the whole “it’s up to you to interpret” is a complete cop out and lazy. I think the fact that loads of people hated the ending, shows that. The way I see it, you’re in one of three camps:
1. Hated the game, therefore didn’t care about the ending - don’t bother with DLC
2. If you liked the game and liked the ending - again, don’t bother with DLC and leave it as you want. No one is forcing you to buy the DLC
3. Liked the game, hated the ending. Buy the DLC, and let’s hope the ending changes to something we like. :)
This is fair, and DLC take up will determine the overall reception in a way. People will purchase the game based on hype, but will only purchase further content if they found it overall enjoyable.
Comments online can't be taken as overall sentiment, as people typically speak louder if they're unhappy about something.
The major issue that comes, is that if the story changes it doesn't matter whether you play it or not, that is the new story. Your interpretation will be shouted down in favour of the new content.
People already refer to the Ultimania or interviews that provide detail that wasn't in the game at all so really shouldn't be relevant in my opinion. If it wasn't in the game, clearly it wasn't important or was an original failure of storytelling.
Changing stories as some people didn't like them runs the risk of listening to a minority and removing integrity.
Gameplay changes that people are unhappy about I'm completely on board for people wanting amendments. Story, I don't understand how people would view that as something other than lip service, like they're being pandered to even if they do get what they want.
Learn from feedback for future stories by all means, don't change your existing story. You run the risk of still not making people happy, but now risk making people that were previously happy annoyed with it.
I've come around to the idea that XVI didn't earn the right to have an ambiguous ending, but I still don't think it should be changed. We'll see in a couple of months if I'm on the wrong side of history.
@@Arkaledion it’s happened before, after FF15, they released DLC’s which changed the ending. So they’ve got form for doing this. I didn’t play those DLCs, because I didn’t really like that game. So as far as I was concerned the original ending was how it was.
It doesn’t have to be a “true ending” or anything. Just an alternative one, if you like the original then keep your money and don’t play it. I want a “happy ending” so will happily spend my money if it means it changes. If it doesn’t change then so be it. :)
@@SamBerbatov2010 Which they didn't finish in the end owing to a huge drop off in interest from the game. Good example to draw funnily enough with how much shade Yoshida threw at it, but now XVI seems to be doing the same thing. Not as extreme, but still.
In fairness I feel I'm stuck buying it even if it tells me specifically that I'm an idiot, I've spoken on everything else to do with XVI at this point so it would feel incomplete if I didn't record my thoughts on the final piece.
The ending of FF16 is incomparable with the ending/s of Mass Effect 3. Clive has a complete story and arbitrarily reviving him would just pander to Tumblerites that make bad art and OC laden fanfics.
I wouldn't put it quite like that, but I agree. Learn from feedback for the future, but also take into consideration that not all feedback is valid.