Common Flightsimmer Mistakes: Understanding and Handling DISCONTINUITIES | Real Airline Pilot
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- Опубліковано 10 жов 2023
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Thank you for this very needed video. As controller, handling a busy approach, it is a huge problem when Pilots just turn final. It can mess up the entire sequence.
Couldn't agree more!
This isn’t a ‘route discontinuity’ issue, it’s a pilot education issue.
To diminish the risks of pilots misbehaviour it worths to advise to 'maintain present heading after ERPUK' beforehand.
@@leonpilot737 But should not be necessary for the controller to say just because of the pilots that dont want read the charts (or ATIS for that matter)
@@SonnichFenn Sure, mate!
Man, I love your videos, but everytime you say "discontinunity" an angel dies :D
I’ve been laughing at this for about 5 minutes.
Great video, his English is probably better than mine and I’m Scottish
As we say in German: "Ein bisschen Spaß muss sein" ;-)
@@A330Driver sowas von! :D
He isn't saying "discontinuity". He is saying Viscount Annuity, because he is noble and we reap the periodic bonus of knowledge from him.
@@KaiTakApproach🤣👍
I flew for a few airlines in my time and we never left route discontinuities in.
Maybe it’s different in Vatsim but there were surely good reasons for us doing so. Britannia(Thompson, TUI) was one I definitely remember being trained that way. That was a good few years ago though, maybe things have changed.
20 years back that would surely have been fine. But since the introduction of RNAV arrivals ending in vectors removing such discontinuities is an absolute no go. ATC expects you to continue on the heading and you clear that out? Bound to go wrong. Now these are mostly a thing coming up in the past ten years, thus if your training was earlier things certainly have changed since then.
I would suggest any pro pilot that isn’t aware that he should stay on a heading rather than blindly allow the jet to follow the magenta line needs more training 😊. I recently spoke to a current TUI 787 Capt who was trained the same way in the Britannia days about this very issue, as Vatsim controllers on discord were arguing the same thing you are, but he agreed with me and still clears any discontinuities irl. I am just uneasy with people stating some things as definitively ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ when there are probably airlines who’s SOPs contradict one’s views operating quite happily day in day out.
By the way I just checked with long term colleagues at Easy & Ryanair - like the TUI one they DON’T leave discontinuities in. So there appears to be a difference between the sim and real life, as I would expect there to be, with real pilots & controllers having thorough training. The SOP at your new company may be different, c’est la vie.
Thank u for this important content. In so many "tutorials" you see it that they are going the wrong way. And always keep an eye on the AIRAC-cycle...
Thanks!
...or at least compare what's in your database with the charts to make sure the waypoints and restrictions are correct.
Something you highlighted at about the 3:40 mark - the gross check of the legs. I keep showing people how to switch to plan mode and check the programmed route :) Great video.
Great tip!
Great insight, as usual. I was aware of no 1 and 2, but never occurred to me about the speed and turn. Unfortunately, sometimes sim FMC inserts disco for unknown reasons between points that are almost on straight route … and those I do clear 😀
Thank You for the help on this, it answers a lot of problems..!
I've always done this because I felt it was easier to manage my flight but never thought it was a valid approach! Thank you for validating my brain!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video as always Emi. Thank you
Thank you too!
Thank you for the interesting insight, disco's weren't something I paid too much attention to unless I would get the UNABLE...fmc message, and VECTORS on the approach, which kind of speak for itself.
I've also noticed that UNABLE will appear if the cost index is out of whack, too.
I don't think the UNABLE is anything to do with the disco - it's more to do with the speed/alt targets set and whether the airplane believes it can achieve that; i'll stand corrected if i'm wrong about this.
as usual a wealth of information, i always learn something with your videos....thanks
My pleasure!
Another great video!! Thank you 😊
Thanks for bringing light to this subject. It doesn't help that most travel agencies are tought by Sabre to remove discos. So that may have propagated that idea into the flight simming community.
😂😂😂
It’s an interesting video that raises the subtle but critical differences between Real life / Fsim offline and Fsim Online procedures. Tbf I don’t bother with VATSIM flying so I generally cheat and do a direct after few mins flying to simulate the vector from ATC. Regards the Disc in routes I do have a few questions ofc I don’t know what real aircraft do in these situations. It seems in a lot of planes (msfs) it just tries fly the turn and overshoots but just does the best it can. Then you get the better aircraft that highlight issues, ie More drag in FMC etc. I not sure at what point they turn a ‘extreme’ manoeuvre into a disc though in the sim. In RL I’m sure the plane won’t do anything if you imputed an extreme manoeuvre but would carry on same flight trajectory I have no idea 😂
Thanks for this great advice
Some really helpful tips, thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
I needed this exact video.
I don't vatsim yet because I'm stuck on Xbox SX unfort, until I can build a PC better then I have, it'll be this way for me...but since I have navigraph chart subscription and always try and fly w realism, I started looking at all those vector/discon in my FMC's and wanted to start doing it proper instead of deleting as most tell us, trying to imagine ATC giving me proper spacing with a vector. This is a good vid once again, and something I NEVER see talked about on most MSFS tutorials.
Very informative. I was always under the impression we should delete the discos. As you mentioned, this is a procedure I learned from tutorials lol
You're welcome!
It‘s a technique or sometimes even SOP after all. In my company discos are usually deleted for instance, but of course we need to be aware of our clearance limit, needless to say.
Great video.. as always!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very informative, been deleting discons since i've been flying, wow
Glad it was helpful!
Great video as always! Interested in any tips on managing descent profile when you have a disco in your star
Pretty much the same way as in here: ua-cam.com/video/CO59EpgdPsE/v-deo.htmlsi=6nBU1ZapF4jlArG5
As for the FMCs logic, VNAV doesn't take the disco into account for its prediction, it assumes a direct from the last point before the disco to the first point behind it.
Thank you
You're welcome
Thankyou!, Great info! I have a question about the verticle path, I live in Las Vegas,and monitor ATC while plane spotting. Often, I hear the crew,usualy while lining up, that they will not be able to make the climb restriction on the SID(high density altitude),and will have to make a green dot departure, what alerts them to this issue in the CDU? Thanks!
Hi, in Boeingsyou'd get a scratchpadmessage telling you that the plane is unable to meet a restriction.
In Airbusses the star next to the restriction would show amber rather than purple, indicating that the plane is unable to make it while the altitude of the restriction would be replaced with the actual altitude the plane will make there.
Yeah I remember doing that mistake on vatsim never again😂
Sometimes the best way to learn it to let people do their mistakes. Only that approach controller will probably disagree :D
Vielen Dank! Das hab ich immer falsch gemacht! Grüße aus Mannheim :)
Immer gerne :)
Just noticed your new name here 🎉
You say that a discontinudity could appear when for example a turn can't be made due to a speed that's too high. But why wouldn't there appear a BYPASS segment then? A BYPASS just skips a waypoint that can't be overflown due to speed or a turn that is too tight as well, right? Keep up the good work, love it :)
BYPASS will only appear when it's able to intercept the track before the next subsequent waypoint. If not then it'll create the discontinuity.
Sweet! Discontinunity. But who cares? Your knowledge is fantastic and your urge to teach us all that is admirable. Please, don't discontinue to enrich us further!
Well, certainly less people care than people who should care. This video was made on request of a VATSIM Copenhagen controller because far too many people clear the Discontinuity at the end of their STARs and simply turn final without clearance, thus messing up the sequence.
Luckily at the point of this writing about 9700 people seem to care.
I'm kind of surprised that this is still a thing that causes confusion, but I guess the airplane vendors don't help matters with their advice.
I've always tried to take a common sense approach to this since the first study-level aircraft back in the FS9 days. If I'm flying offline, then of course I'm going to clear the discontinuities before I take off (making sure that they're still technically flyable, of course). I might manually insert some waypoint routings in between the two segments in order to make for a smooth approach. I used to be one of those people who vectored myself "on the fly," but I got tired of doing that.
If I'm online, I leave them in place, and then when I get close to my ToD:
a) if there's no controller online between me and the runway, I clear the discontinuity same as above so that VNAV can recalculate in time enough for me to start my descent properly.
b) If there's a controller online, I leave things as-is and trust that they will vector me when the time comes.
Good concept! A small advise on a):
In the 737 you can just insert the "shortcut" without executing, wait until the FMC has calculated the crossing altitude for the closest waypoint before the shortcut, then clear the modification (don't execute the mod!) and insert that previously calculated altitude as a constraint. That way VNAV is prepared for the shortcut, while maintaining the correct LNAV profile in case a controller comes online in time.
In the A320 you can do the same via the secondary flightplan.
@@A330Driver Oh, see, I always forget about that little time-saver! Thanks for the reminder, Emi. I don't use pre-staged routing near as often as I should.
Hey emi thanks for the video very informative. I have one question if you have a speed restriction at 280 knots, if the plane cant make it like it would rather fly 244 knots, i usually use speed
Intervention is that wrong.
If the restriction on the chart reads "AT 280kt" then we need to obey that restriction.
My way of doing so would be to change the target speed on the VNAV descent page from the CI calculated speed (244 in your case) to 280kt while maintaining the cruise mach number until changeover. That way your plane will be able to meet the restriction while maitaining the most economical flight path.
@@A330Driver thank you i will definitely try that i never knew that.
Interesting thanks, but how would the open approach affect your TOD point on the FMC?
It doesn't affect it at all, VNAV is a smart thing and will for the purpose of vertical path calculation still assuming that you'll fly direct from the beginning of the open segment to the end of it. For VNAV it's as if you connected the points anyway.
@@A330Driver Awesome thanks!
awesome, does discon in sid or star always mean vector ?
Not always, see my explanation in the video.
Hey, out of context question, but i really need help. When i start a flight everything is normal, but after about half an hour my gpu wattage drops from 200 to like 50 and the gpu usage is about 10 percent (before that it was about 80) resulting in massive fps drops from 50 to 5 fps. Does anybody know what to do? And if i quit the flight and restart it (without restarting Msfs) everything is fine again. And everything started when I downloaded Opentrack. I deleted it after this occured the first time, but it didnt fix the problem .
Hi, I'm really not too much of an expert on that topic, I'd suggest to open a supporttopic in the MSFS forums.
@@A330DriverThank you for your answear, i actually fixed it by just deleting one file that was left of opentrack. So finally i can fly again. Thank your for your great content!
I dont have navigraph
dis · kaan · tuh · noo · uh · tee
Hi Emanuel! Thanks again for your great input. Interesting as always. Unfortunately at least the cockpit software I am using in my B738 simulator, which has a FAA approval, does not give you correct numbers for EAT and fuel prediction at your destination as long as you do not clear such disco from the FMC but keep it the way you suggest. You may even get "insufficient fuel" warning in the first place because of this infinity track and have 0 fuel left at destination. How did you handle this in the real B738? Is this a software bug? 😂 As far as I am concerned in my humble perspective the well know German carriers do cancel the disco there, disregard the generic created FMC routing but fly the needed track in heading mode according to the charts to join vectors once ATC advises. At least that's how I was briefed. You'll never fly an approach blindly following the FMC without looking onto the charts in your EFB. Thanks and regards.
It's a bug in your FAA approved software, the real one will calculate ETA and fuel without problems.
Nicely shows that any sort of auhority approval mustn't mean anything and is mostly marketing stuff these days.
@@A330Driver Thanks for your reply. Yeah, it's a shame. Anyway good to know!
This is a How-To: Germany in VATSIM.
Similar procedure designs are used in the US, Spain, Denmark and so on.
@@A330DriverI know I know, but these type of arrival always brings Germany to my mind. It’s actually fun to watch them IRL flying around Frankfurt when you know how the arrivals work.
discontiNOONity 😁
I really don't care what any none real pilot UA-camr has to say about flying. I only listen to those who are real-life pilots.
Sadly it's not just youtubers, but also official documentation coming with addons teaching this. I'd expect those to be correct, but they seem to often simplify things.
Many real pilots clear discontinuities so that’s a questionable video
Just because *some* do it, it doesn't mean they're meant to. How often did I hear something on the radio already like "where are you turning now" when exactly this happened. Now I could mention some certain airlines names, but I suppose their lawyers wouldn't be happy.
@@A330Driver i just reported that many real pilots do not remove discontinuities which is something plenty of proof, going beyond facts it seems to me something not interesting
I'm not quite sure but I think there's a typo in the title
unsubscribed /j
haha, typo corrected.