Hi Shane, i want to congratulate you to this Video. I just found it while I was searching some Themes for tutorial Videos. The reason is that I´m working for the German Rockwell Distributer and make Videotutorials in German. This Video is for sure one of the best about Tuning a PID Loop.
RAHUL PATIL Thank you, this is why I make videos and training. I have two servo courses on Udemy and a patreon members group for custom training but again, thank you for the support on my UA-cam channel. Thanks, Shane
@@ShaneWelcher Shane, I have been working on tuning an AB pide, level control via vfd's. Independent, e = PV - sp. Level gets to SP but slowly oscillates above and below SP. Only using P & I.(2. 2 & .6) It's working for app. but I think it could be better. Any advice?
Hello Shane, Is there a rational method to determine what should be changed, by how much and in which direction. It sounds as if we are making changes without any prior guidance or reason, and then if needed, and as often as needed, we are reversing these changes or acting on other parameters, or for that matter, reinforcing the previously made changes? There is a lot of guesswork that is not easily analyzed or planned for in this approach to tunning PID. Thanks anyway for sharing with us your expertise
First I would ask if you are using a PIDE or PID. Then I would say a lot depends on the actual device set up & the timing of the reaction from the devices used. Meaning, if you are making a lot of changes then it seems more like a mechanical issue. Whether pipe, valve, pump, air, flow, or whatever is being used. The process is very dependent on the process & how it's physically setup
Good video. Very informative. I am trying to control the PH of a water treatment system. My tolerances are pretty wide so I don't have to get it exact. What is the difference between the Process Variable and the Control Variable? Any tips on using a PID loop in RSLogix5000 with the PH as a process variable to control a mineral injection motor/pump? Upon further research, I have come to the realization that controlling PH is a nonlinear process so it complicates the matter.
The PV is the input value to the PID loop. The CV is the control The PID will react based on the set up of the PID loop but to be honest there are tons of more variables that need to be answered if you wanted to a solution to what you are asking. The setup of the loop matters greatly....meaning, physical setup and the PID loop itself
Just wanted to add my 2 cents given I just went through a troubleshooting exercise with Rockwell. For Logix5000 they do not recommend having any conditions on the PID instruction rung, rather just keeping the instruction inside of a Period Task with the same interval as the Loop Update Time.
With your 2 cents accepted, make sure you know that these videos are just showing & teaching experience. Not anything written in stone. These are examples. If you know about PID programming through Rockwell then note that this is their actual sample code from years ago. The sample is just a test method from using conditions. That is a better way to teach. We all know that due to privacy rights, we can't show real life machines unless we own them
@@ShaneWelcher Right...but in my case, which could easily be the case of others, I ended up at this video as well as other forums where users have incorrectly advised using Timer DN bits as a condition in their PID instruction rung. This wasn't even the point of your video, but nonetheless I wanted to mention it since it was valuable in my particular case.
@@Rottweilerz I agree that other points can be said, note that all PID loops are different. They are dependant on the actual devices used & setup. This is what throws a wrench in teaching tuning so that is why I used the same code so that it would handle the tuning knowledge. At least, small piece of knowledge that people can learn from for what the P, The I, & the D stand for.
Hey Shane, I was wondering if a drive could cause a velocity error? I have a machine with 6 axis all set up the same. Only one axis has a high velocity error. We took apart conveyor and inspection all bearing and gearbox? Didn’t find anything to cause the velocity to spike. Could it be a bad drive. They are 25 plus years old?
Could be the drive or the drive tuning but I would also check for noise. Dirty power from a lost ground or using an oscilloscope to on any speed reference wiring if any is used. Might also be the drive current is higher than expected. Example: Drive outputting double the flux current the motor. The start boost or run boost could be too high. There really could be a number of causes. Depends on the drive & the setup
hello Shane, i liked your video, i am working in a college project where i need used the module imc in block diagram but i dont know how tune this block, i have the instruction set manual but it doesnt say so much, i need help , please if you know any about that could you help me?
The best way to control oscillating in my opinion is to properly tune to loop. Although, if this is a real system that is currently working then please note. Physical, electrical, & the Proportional, the integral, & the derivative. There are more things to consider than just the program. Just keep that in mind
Thank you for the suggestion and the question, I will try to put something together. I am currently in process of making a new training environment to have a better place for everyone to learn from.
I set the logic diagram and pid setting exactly the same as yours, but when i put the PID in Auto Operation then the Output strike to 100%, the curve move fast to 2000 (SP set to 250), is there I missed for something here?
Congratulations on the birth of your son. Yes, definitely no problem, whenever you may have time. The PID works great in SP-PV mode but not in PV-SP mode with that calculation in the compute instruction.
Shane, first of all thanks for all the helpful and educational videos! A couple of questions about your PID setup: (1) at time 16:00/22:04, why your simulator in rung 2 has a calculated value PV1=1250.3518 while the PID process variable (PV1) shows 500.14243? (2) You use a 100 msec timer to run/control your PID in rung 1. In that context, what is the loop update time that you show at 19:41/22:04 of video? (3) Could you possibly add a video that explains more about the function of the different parameters of the PID configuration? Thanks in advance.
I can try but at the time my wife is days away from being induced so my son is about to be born. I will make a note to try to make one but feel free to remind me through my website bit.ly/2D4F2gj
@@ShaneWelcher No rush Shane. You should be with your wife during this special life-changing event. Congratulations! There is already a lot of good information in current video, just thought a little more could be said on parameter configuration.
Use the PID error for logical control, I have a video on this on my channel, just search PID on my channel. I have the video and it is where I made an AOI to do this exact feature so it may be under and add on instruction search on my channel. If you can't find it then let me know and I will make sure I re-publish it.
Just build the logic that is shown, this way it provides you more value. Or you could join my PIDE training which provides files and a way to easily learn. www.allen-bradley-plc-training.com/p/pide-training-with-trainer-included
The way the PID equation calculates. Quick example is: Independent Changing one gains only affects that term and not any of the others Dependant Changing the controller gains you change the action of all 3 terms, proportional, intergral, derivative, at the same time
Is posible use this PID in order to control motor speed of the spooler (winder or unwinder )? , if is not posible, which would be the reason ?thansk in advance
*Check out our training center:
**allen-bradley-plc-training.teachable.com/*
Hi Shane,
i want to congratulate you to this Video. I just found it while I was searching some Themes for tutorial Videos. The reason is that I´m working for the German Rockwell Distributer and make Videotutorials in German.
This Video is for sure one of the best about Tuning a PID Loop.
Thank you very much for the support & glad to see it is helpful
brilliant PID training video.
@@mingli4183 Thank you, glad it helped
Truly speaking, this is la creme de la creme. Congrats Shane
I appreciate your comment, let me know where I can help
Best video on PID available till date... well done SIR... great video ...
RAHUL PATIL
Thank you, this is why I make videos and training. I have two servo courses on Udemy and a patreon members group for custom training but again, thank you for the support on my UA-cam channel.
Thanks,
Shane
Shane I love your videos. Thank you
@@James-oj6lk Thank you, glad to help
@@ShaneWelcher Shane, I have been working on tuning an AB pide, level control via vfd's. Independent, e = PV - sp. Level gets to SP but slowly oscillates above and below SP. Only using P & I.(2. 2 & .6) It's working for app. but I think it could be better. Any advice?
@@James-oj6lk Search my channel for the keyword "PIDE" I have examples of that
Very well done PID definition and instruction.
Thank you
i enjoyed this video alot wish you do more pid loops awesome work on showing us
I have more PID videos, just use the search tab on my channel then all the videos will appear that I have.
Hope that helps
Hello Shane,
Is there a rational method to determine what should be changed, by how much and in which direction. It sounds as if we are making changes without any prior guidance or reason, and then if needed, and as often as needed, we are reversing these changes or acting on other parameters, or for that matter, reinforcing the previously made changes? There is a lot of guesswork that is not easily analyzed or planned for in this approach to tunning PID.
Thanks anyway for sharing with us your expertise
First I would ask if you are using a PIDE or PID.
Then I would say a lot depends on the actual device set up & the timing of the reaction from the devices used.
Meaning, if you are making a lot of changes then it seems more like a mechanical issue.
Whether pipe, valve, pump, air, flow, or whatever is being used.
The process is very dependent on the process & how it's physically setup
Good video. Very informative. I am trying to control the PH of a water treatment system. My tolerances are pretty wide so I don't have to get it exact. What is the difference between the Process Variable and the Control Variable? Any tips on using a PID loop in RSLogix5000 with the PH as a process variable to control a mineral injection motor/pump? Upon further research, I have come to the realization that controlling PH is a nonlinear process so it complicates the matter.
The PV is the input value to the PID loop.
The CV is the control
The PID will react based on the set up of the PID loop but to be honest there are tons of more variables that need to be answered if you wanted to a solution to what you are asking.
The setup of the loop matters greatly....meaning, physical setup and the PID loop itself
Just wanted to add my 2 cents given I just went through a troubleshooting exercise with Rockwell. For Logix5000 they do not recommend having any conditions on the PID instruction rung, rather just keeping the instruction inside of a Period Task with the same interval as the Loop Update Time.
With your 2 cents accepted, make sure you know that these videos are just showing & teaching experience.
Not anything written in stone.
These are examples.
If you know about PID programming through Rockwell then note that this is their actual sample code from years ago.
The sample is just a test method from using conditions.
That is a better way to teach.
We all know that due to privacy rights, we can't show real life machines unless we own them
@@ShaneWelcher Right...but in my case, which could easily be the case of others, I ended up at this video as well as other forums where users have incorrectly advised using Timer DN bits as a condition in their PID instruction rung. This wasn't even the point of your video, but nonetheless I wanted to mention it since it was valuable in my particular case.
@@Rottweilerz
I agree that other points can be said, note that all PID loops are different.
They are dependant on the actual devices used & setup.
This is what throws a wrench in teaching tuning so that is why I used the same code so that it would handle the tuning knowledge.
At least, small piece of knowledge that people can learn from for what the P, The I, & the D stand for.
Thanks for helping, hope all is well
Hey Shane, I was wondering if a drive could cause a velocity error? I have a machine with 6 axis all set up the same. Only one axis has a high velocity error. We took apart conveyor and inspection all bearing and gearbox? Didn’t find anything to cause the velocity to spike. Could it be a bad drive. They are 25 plus years old?
Could be the drive or the drive tuning but I would also check for noise.
Dirty power from a lost ground or using an oscilloscope to on any speed reference wiring if any is used.
Might also be the drive current is higher than expected.
Example:
Drive outputting double the flux current the motor.
The start boost or run boost could be too high.
There really could be a number of causes.
Depends on the drive & the setup
Ola Shane! Ótimo vídeo! Abraço do Brasil 🇧🇷
hello Shane, i liked your video, i am working in a college project where i need used the module imc in block diagram but i dont know how tune this block, i have the instruction set manual but it doesnt say so much, i need help , please if you know any about that could you help me?
What software are you using exactly?
Sir, in CONFIGURATION of PID what is role of NO BIAS CALCULATION.
does it effect the oscillation.
The best way to control oscillating in my opinion is to properly tune to loop.
Although, if this is a real system that is currently working then please note.
Physical, electrical, & the Proportional, the integral, & the derivative.
There are more things to consider than just the program.
Just keep that in mind
@@ShaneWelcher thank you sir.
@@naman.maheshwari212 Welcome my friend
Thanks the answer, could share one example of routine for PI ? , and wthat happen with D gain ?
Thank you for the suggestion and the question, I will try to put something together. I am currently in process of making a new training environment to have a better place for everyone to learn from.
I set the logic diagram and pid setting exactly the same as yours, but when i put the PID in Auto Operation then the Output strike to 100%, the curve move fast to 2000 (SP set to 250), is there I missed for something here?
Maybe the PID tuning from what you are saying or either the scan rate of the processor.
I used a periodic task at 75ms
Hi Shane very nice video, have you got any video where explains how to configure the simulate PV rung?
I think so, just search the channel to see.
Can a different formula be put into the compute instruction to allow the PID to simulate a PV - SP control action?
Yes, this was just an example. Nothing written is stone
I have been unsuccessful getting the PID to work in reverse acting PV-SP mode. Have you created a formula for that function?
@@paulrogers8459
I do in the sample logic I did in the video
@@paulrogers8459
I'm just getting home from my wife having our son, it may take a few days for me to get things situated so I can help out more.
Congratulations on the birth of your son. Yes, definitely no problem, whenever you may have time. The PID works great in SP-PV mode but not in PV-SP mode with that calculation in the compute instruction.
Thank You
Anytime
Shane, first of all thanks for all the helpful and educational videos!
A couple of questions about your PID setup:
(1) at time 16:00/22:04, why your simulator in rung 2 has a calculated value PV1=1250.3518 while the PID process variable (PV1) shows 500.14243?
(2) You use a 100 msec timer to run/control your PID in rung 1. In that context, what is the loop update time that you show at 19:41/22:04 of video?
(3) Could you possibly add a video that explains more about the function of the different parameters of the PID configuration?
Thanks in advance.
I can try but at the time my wife is days away from being induced so my son is about to be born. I will make a note to try to make one but feel free to remind me through my website bit.ly/2D4F2gj
@@ShaneWelcher No rush Shane. You should be with your wife during this special life-changing event. Congratulations!
There is already a lot of good information in current video, just thought a little more could be said on parameter configuration.
What is the %output meaning in this PID block ?
That would be used for controlling a device in the field, I didn't show that because I simulated the logic to show how a PID works
Thanks for sharing. How can you use this if it is a digital output, say to SS Relay controlling a heater with a
Thermocouple as the input?
Use the PID error for logical control, I have a video on this on my channel, just search PID on my channel.
I have the video and it is where I made an AOI to do this exact feature so it may be under and add on instruction search on my channel.
If you can't find it then let me know and I will make sure I re-publish it.
if you have sample or acd file it will be very good for us,anyway thanks for this helpfulvideo
Just build the logic that is shown, this way it provides you more value.
Or you could join my PIDE training which provides files and a way to easily learn.
www.allen-bradley-plc-training.com/p/pide-training-with-trainer-included
What is the difference between Independent and Dependent mode ?
The way the PID equation calculates.
Quick example is:
Independent
Changing one gains only affects that term and not any of the others
Dependant
Changing the controller gains you change the action of all 3 terms, proportional, intergral, derivative, at the same time
@@ShaneWelcher Thank you very much
Is posible use this PID in order to control motor speed of the spooler (winder or unwinder )? , if is not posible, which would be the reason ?thansk in advance
Angel Tobar
Truthfully, I would write a routine for PI and not use a PID. The use of a PI is a natural logic control for winders and speed control
someone give him a Nobel prize, please.
Thank you for the kind words.
Really thanks !!
Glad to help
How i can made PID for 3 analog solid state relay connected to 3 heaters ?To keep the temperature on 50 Celsius
Look on my channel and search PID, there should be a video about that....I think PWM
It may be under Add on instructions so search that as well
Excelent.
TB1 tag AS YOU HAVE CONFIGURED?
Please be specific, these are my older videos and it would help to know what you need help with.
Nice.
Best video and great work but need to zoom in the screen little bit
It's a free video, why complain?
I can take it down if people don't like it
No I am not complaining , as a electronics engineer your tutorials bring me to the next level.It's only a request
@@subha3210 No worries, it is an older video & we all have to learn as we go so I have much better quality now
When use Auto_Req Or Manual_Req ?
Auto is for auto mode and standard controls generally but a manual is often used as a maintenance task or is something is wrong.
Shane Welcher thank you so much
LOOP UPDATE TIME ?
Deepak Kumar
Yes, did you not watch the whole video?
Please watch again my friend
please use a bright colored pen next time
I do in my new videos
Pls update new video
What do you want to see?
This video is not that old as far as software.
Do you mean software version?