P-47 Thunderbolt Pt. 3 Armor and Protection
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- Опубліковано 29 гру 2018
- The top TEN P-47 aces in the Eighth Air Force survived the war. In this video we discuss the design and features that gave the Thunderbolt pilots protection. It's the armor, structure, and a lot more!
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I knew a pilot who flew P-47s over Europe. an old man during 1990s. when i asked him about his war days he used to tell me stories about his missions. sometimes he would get exited while telling his story and became very animated. then to my surprise a movie special effect like change would come over his face which became young and lively for few seconds. it was stunning experience to see a man in his mid seventies become young again
I knew a lady in the 90s that built P-47s for Republic Aircraft.
I had a neighbor friend who was a P-38 pilot in WW2. He was old but when he talked about the dogfights he'd been in, it was like he was young again. He'd lean in his chair and use his hands to show how the turns went as he re-flew them in his head just like it happened yesterday.
My Dad was a B24 Navigator 449th Bomb Group 716 Squadron and P47Ds provided full Escort on shorter Missions and took them halfway & picked them up halfway on the way Home on longer Missions. They called their P47 Pilots "Cowboys" with great affection. They were the Timex of Airframes "Take-a-licking-and-keep-on-ticking " 2000HP 426mph, 8-50 cals, 10 5" Rockets, a flying weapons platform.
Talk to that old man everyday, he probably likes telling his war stories. You have a wealth of history in him.
@@user-qy9tf2im7f A flying tank platform
I first read "Thunderbolt" when I was eight, at the beginning of a four-week long family road trip vacation. It hooked me completely, made me forever interested in military history. So much so that I used a fair bit of the money I'd saved up for souvenirs to purchase a book on Midway along the way.
I served during the Korean conflict.What I do know is that ground crews that were in the my squadron loved the jug as they called,those veterans as well as pilots of the war swore by its rugged construction and toughness.
Thanks for all the info. I especially appreciate your thoughtful technical approach.
My uncle was with the 9th AAF 371st FG and flew the P47. As you probably know the 9th AAF flew ground support and attack missions. My uncle was killed 3-19-45 after being hit by AAA on a mission and crash landing his ship, a P47D. Following the crash his 406th squadron mates were able to observe his nearly in tacked plane on the ground had a serious cockpit fire. He never got out. He was 21. Years ago I found 3 men that knew, trained and flew with my uncle. Two of them I have met in person. One of them was the flight leader that day and the other his best friend. As of Feb 2019 his best friend now 95 years old is still living in his home town of Knoxville TN. I call him regularly and will visit him for the 3rd time in 10 years. I will visit him in late March at his home there in Knoxville. I hope to be able to take him and visit the near by Tennessee Museum of Aviation in Sevierville TN. There are 2 flyable P47 hangered there.
I have yet to see one fly in person. Maybe get to see one fly this time.
That's quite a story. I am honored that you watched my video.
Paul The USAAF LOST 2400+ when they used it in the G/A role. It was not suited for it and the USAAF should have left it up top where it was the best the US had.
Most channels like the History channel are full of reality tv. The few documentaries that are being made today are full of cgi and explosions, glossing over details and little known facts.... it’s like people have forgotten how to research. Thank you for making quality content and sharing your knowledge! I’m so lucky they’re about the P-47... my favorite airplane!
My father was a six victory (+1 probable) ace in P-38s in the MTO. He did a second tour later in P-47s. Although he loved the P-38, his comment on the P-47 was: "If I had a P-47 the first time around, I would have been a triple ace!" The Luftwaffe pilots in 1943 were still very skilled and knew how to maximize their strengths against our weaknesses. The experienced German pilots would split-S and head vertical for the ground. The early P-38s did not have the dive recovery flaps and could not follow them in the power dive without losing elevator effectiveness. (Compressibility). My dad's next comment was: "No one ever out dove a P-47; that was pure suicide by the enemy pilot....
Thanks for your comment. It's always great to hear such information.
"(Compressibility). My dad's next comment was: "No one ever out dove a P-47; that was pure suicide by the enemy pilot....""
- I may be wrong, but wasn't compressibility also a problem for P-47? I have watched wartime instructional video on flying P-47 and they state the limitations for diving. They seemed rather strict to me... Surely better than P-38 though, but that would be the context of your dad's comment, if I'm understanding it all correctly.
Every aircraft has a Vne( never exceed speed.) This limitation may be due to airframe limitations, controllibility, or who knows.It is just that the P-38 approached that speed faster and earlier than most of its contemporaries. If I remember correctly some P-47s also had "dive recover flaps" to assist with this as well. Anyone?
@@goldcfi7103 Yes, I know that any plane can exceed controllable dive speeds, but the thing with P-47 was that it couldn't recover from powered, vertical dives from 15 000 ft. starting at 250 mph IAS.
That's not much...
Have a look at "How To Fly The P-47 - High Altitude Flight and Aerobatics (1943)" video. Dive speed limits are discussed at around 17:45 min. mark (starts earlier), but the whole movie is some sort of a masterpiece, so worth watching regardless of this topic. Beautiful flying! Your dad could do that too, I guess.
It reminded me of when I've seen a Corsair doing aerobatics right above my head, below 100m for sure. Those guys absolutely rocked! Probably the most impressive display I have seen during the whole airshow. How they got her to Poland, I'm not sure, but they got here and showed everybody how bald eagles do it!
@@bakters Greg covered dive speeds in part 2, check it out.
ua-cam.com/video/aCNt3J65UqE/v-deo.html
Sorry wrong link, the correct one is below
ua-cam.com/video/wwP6qv8jOhI/v-deo.html
My grandfather Capt. Jay P Green took a Canadian 5" shell through his left wing while returning to base in France and landed with no problem. The picture is lost but I remember seeing him and his crew chief on the wing as a kid.
It’s good to see such a breakdown as the P-47 is one of those planes where many people make the mistake of overemphasizing ‘armour’ rather than construction. The armour did not make it the tough nut it was, in many ways the armour was standard (or even below it) and not special. The construction is what mattered and made it standout. Good point on mentioning that looking at only the return aircraft is risky, survivors bias is a thing.
A few points:
Regarding gun cam footage. These were stored in Dresden and were destroyed in the bombing. Hence a wealth of potential footage vs. P-47s was destroyed. This is also the reason why the same footage is also always looped in all documentaries, sometimes mirrored, zoomed etc. making it seem like different footage. There isn’t anything else left.
Armour plating: The P-47 has, as you mentioned, a standard armour load-out pretty much typical for planes of the time, with a single plate for the pilot, some limited frontal protection and ‘armoured glass’. In a past video I made on this topic I compared it to the Japanese Ki-43 which has a thicker armour plate behind the pilot. As for the hardness, iirc I have seen something on a Japanese test versus a US plate in the Pacific of the same thickness as the P-47D. The Japanese 12.7mm AP rounds managed to penetrate it (although no intervening material/ angle was used affair), while the Japanese claimed their own plates would usually offer comparative protection from this calibre. Working on a project concerning this topic which will come to my channel soon. Will have something more definite then.
Auxiliary armour tends to be armour that isn’t actually ‘armour’. It is not supposed to stop a bullet but rather take its kinetic energy, disfigure the bullet and/or make it change its trajectory. For example, the Bf 109 had a similar thin sheet set about a frame before the armour plate In essence, anything that is between the bullet and the armour could count as this, but auxiliary armour is the stuff that has no other use but this. I am in the office atm (yup, even on NY Eve) so I can’t check for a source atm, but I presume William Wolf or Francis Dean might have something on it regarding the P-47 (?).
Robert Johnson was heavily hit as you said. The initial damage was made by 20mm cannons, this rendered his plane combat ineffective. The second FW190 fired only 7.92mm rounds (probably ran out of 20mm earlier in the ‘same’ fight). In his book Thunderbolt he recounts this. It’s important to make that distinction.
Happy New Year and pardon the British spelling ;)
HI Bismark, thanks for commenting.
I didn't know that's what happened to all the gun camera footage. Yet another reason bombing Dresden wasn't a good idea.
I couldn't find anything meaningful on the Auxiliary armor for the Thunderbolt, other than it being mentioned in couple places, one if which is the parts manual page I put in the video. It would be great if you could find a source. I'm really looking forward to your next video, I think a lot of people are.
It's always tough to figure things out from "encounter" or "after action" reports. R.S. Johnson's 6-26-43 incident is a good example. Even though we have pretty good data on this one, I am just not sure that the second 190 was already out of 20mm. I base this on the statement that Johnson's plane was initially hit from above in a single diving pass. All 21 20mm hit the fuselage. It seems to me that it would be tough to score that many hits, all on the fuselage in a single diving pass. It seems more likely to me that a few were from the second plane, but I am not sure we will ever know. Of course even if the second plane did have 20mm, it clearly didn't have much at the time of the encounter.
History channel claims that the second 190 was piloted by Egon Mayer. I couldn't find any real evidence of that, and I am curious if you have any thoughts on that.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles I'll check once I get the chance.
It's indeed tough to piece this incident together, even if we have relatively good data on it. 21 hits in a pass would be possible, provided Jerry was a good shot and closing speed wasn't too fast. I seem to remember about half of those were in the wings. Might be that I remember that wrong, have not looked at it too closely in some time. Anyway, FW190As in mid-43 were equipped with up to four 20mm cannons - although some of the variants might still rely on two of the four being the less effective MGFF/Ms. Without knowing who pulled the trigger, we have no idea what exactly was fired down range.
As for Egon Mayer, I don't know. It's possible, then again can be that it's a guess to provide some closure. Mayer didn't make it so there was no way to ask him and since the majority of the files have been lost, it will probably remain a mystery.
I wonder how the P47 structure developed? Was it a philosophy that came out of the Seversky P43 Lancer and earlier P35?
I would assume so, but I do't know for sure.
@Military Avaition History , I reviewed Johnson's book. In it he says that the second plane didn't have any cannon ammo, and that 9 of the 21 20mm did hit the wings. Specifically 5 in the left and 4 in the right. That makes a lot of sense. On Wikipedia it says " damaged by an Fw 190 fighter which fired 21 20 mm cannon shells into his fuselage" WIkipedia doesn't list a source so I think I'll go with Johnson's version. Looks like you remembered correctly :)
It is beautiful to witness how the Internet is working to keep history alive. My dad was a B29 pilot in WWII and my psyche is steeped in early experiences of his frequent living room gab fests with his pilot buddies and being hoisted through the nose hatch of one of those winged war wagons and it's highly organized innards which certainly didn't resemble the living room, in fact imbued me with a love of logic, order and purpose. I congratulate you on this Channel and will hang around for a bit and see what else you got going on here. I often fantasize what it might have been like with my fist wrapped around a control stick in some high altitude field of battle. I'm a WWII junkie and relish explanatory videos such as this. We owe those guys our lives and minds and not a day goes by that I am not thankful for their sense of right and wrong. Don't stop.
Walter
Thanks for the added commentary on Bob Johnson. I read his book cover to cover 12 times as a kid. I think he was a remarkable man.
Oh I guess now I know what to do with 25mins of this sunday.
Thanks Sheriff, and I really enjoy your channel.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles thx!
I was hoping you’d show up haha
@MIDKNIGHT FENERIR I will be covering that exact topic before this series is done. We are only about 1/2 way through.
The P47 Thunderbolt has a Special place in Brazilian military aviation, in WWII the pilots from Brazilian Air Force ( First Fighter Squadron) received training in US and after that were deployed in the Italian front, main mission was bombing enemy convoys, rail roads, trains and Bridges. They also served as bombers escort (at list one time according a book I read). Very good content in your vídeo! Thank you for upload and share. Have a Great New Year! God Bless! Congratts from Brazil!!!
They are remembered. I grew up in Westhampton Beach, New York, location of Gabreski Airport where they trained. Mom (90 years old) lived near the airport tells stories of the constant flights and occasional crashes (and her high school classmates swooning over the dashing Brazilian pilots...). When I was a boy, we found tarnished .50 cal shell cases in areas that were once firing ranges around the airport. Gabreski commanded the airbase in the early '50s during the transition from P-47s to F-86s.
@@baker2niner Thank you for share this History!
A Brazilian born friend of mine, classmates until high school had told me a story of a neighbor of his who had served with one of the squadrons in Italy. Cannot remember it for the life of me. But Brazilian service during the war especially in the Mediterranean Theater of Operations is admirable nonetheless.
One of my Dad's stories as an Army Air Corp cadet was that a student from Brazil died in a plane crash accident and all the other Brazilian students refused to fly.
1º Grupo de Aviação de Caça or 1º GAvCa
This plane is fast becoming my favorite.
I really enjoy your content. Your channel is a hidden gem on youtube
Thank you. Yes it is a bit hidden, but that's OK because it's not for everyone.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobilesLove your detailed specific content. Absolutely definitive and rare. I learn so much.
@@RemoteViewr1 ditto! Greg's careful explanations of WW2 technical stuff is unmatched.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles This was good my man. Do the same for others. Axis and Allied. Would be great to learn about other airframes.
When I was a kid, I loved the P-47 Thunderbolt. Read all kinds of books relating to this plane, and Pilot Gabby Gabreski became my hero. This pilot and airplane formed my love for ww2 air combat, and desire to join the Air Force.
Rivet You do know there were 200 Germans that had more than Gabreski 25 Brits /Dominions and do you know none flew P47s
Jack Tattis You know why that is right? Basically there was no true combat rotation for Nazi German air crews, and they were fighting the Soviets. You combine the facts of never going home, being in near, constant contact with the enemy, and having a huge number of potentially weak targets to shoot at, and it’s possible to score a lot of aerial victories. Much harder to rack up the count when your primary responsibility is escorting high altitude bombers to a variety of locations, from bases hundreds of miles distant from the enemy. An enemy which has pretty good aircraft and pilot training. By the time Germany didn’t have those things, they didn’t have many aircraft in the air for allied pilots to shoot down.
@@jacktattis143 You do know there was only 1 Ozzie ace that matched Gabreski in WW2 and the rest fell FAR short, yet you Ozzies were supposedly fighting for a lot longer than the U.S. Of course, the majority of Clive Caldwell's victories were flying the U.S.-made P-40 not the Spitfire. However, the P-40 itself shouldn't be blamed for him having the habit of shooting pilots hanging in parachutes.
If those 20mm were "Minengeschoss" rounds. Which is likely, they detontated. Those are basically HE rounds not made for penetrating Amored plates within the aircraft. They are rather ripping large holes in the planes surface.
Hi Sheriff, I always look forward to your comments. You, Barton and Central are my go to channels for sim content. Anyway, I think you are correct. If I were flying an FW190 I would select high explosive rounds and sacrifice the armor penetration for the blast damage. It makes more sense when shooting at things made mostly out of thin aluminum. I also think that the holes aft of the armor plate show the the shells hit at a steep angle and Johnson's report indicates that the fire came from above, which also gives an indication of the angle of the 20mm shells relative to the armor plate, so it could be a combination of factors.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles The belting of the 20mm was usually not up to the pilot. Basically there was a standard belt afaik. Considering that Fw 190s fighting P-47 were specifically equipped to shoot down planes (B-17s and P-47s) I think we can assume high amounts of Minengeschoss rounds.
However I dont know for sure how the belting was in detail in 1944/45. Pretty sure there are people who know more and have sources.
I agree entirely. It certainly makes sense. Of course I can't speak German (well, I speak enough to order schnitzel, which I plan to do when in Morbach next month), so all the stuff I have read from the German side are the few bigger publications translated into English. I have never seen any mention of just how German ammo was selected, but what you say makes sense. The U.S. pilots did have a certain amount of control over ammo type. For example some avoided use of tracer rounds because when you miss they give away your position.
well if you one day stumble across german docs and you need a translation summary let me know. I'll happily do that.
Perhaps Google Translate might be useful for translations. I haven’t used it extensively, but have had some occasional success.
All of that is even more amazing seeing as they were assembled on-site
Man, your videos on airplanes are pure gold! Deep document digging and first of all deep UNDERSTANDING of processes and matters you talk about is beyond anything I saw on UA-cam or even Discovery or other "serious" TV channel. Well, maybe on par with Ian from Forgotten Weapons, he knows his shit too.
Anyway, thank you and keep up this awesome channel!
Thorneyed Краб, здоров! Где рисовач по Тундроболту (высотным истребителям) и с Новым годом!
I once read a comment of a wwII pilot that said something like this: want to show off, fly a Mustang, want to come back of every mission, fly a P-47
Roberto J mateau : Not if that role was Ground Attack
@@hoatattis7283 Especially in a ground attack the jug is favorable over the mustang
@Hoa Tattis Imagine how many P-51 they would have lost if they used the P-51 instead of the P-47 for ground attacks.
@Hoa Tattis Your provided data does not help your point at all.
First of all - the maneuverability is not that important if you have air superiority and if you are strafing ground targets. The P-47 is fast enough for that for sure.
Second and most important, the P-51 just cannot sustain damage. The P-47 is way more rugged.
It is a known fact that the P-47 (even if designed as high altitude fighter / escort plane) is a better ground attacker than the P-51 which also shines in high alt.
If you wanna argue that, argue with someone else.
Thank you for the P-47 series. This is a real treat not only learning so much about my favorite aircraft from WWII but also that you’re a fellow Oklahoman aviator as well. I’ve seen the painting before but didn’t know the story. How great.
Possible answer for the auxiliary armor; In armor vehicles we would often have a thin sheet of steel spaced before/ exterior the main armor. This would break up an impacting round and by having the space it could not carry it's kenetic energy directly into the main armor plate. Great effectiveness with less material. Similarly we would often have a "spall liners" inside. This was a sort of sheet of kevlar or similar material to catch pieces of steel from the armor itself which could break away and go flying through the interior of the vehicle, even from the impact of a round which didn't penetrate.
I can imagine the survivability conversation with the B-17 crews ‘The P-47 is very heavy and very strong to protect the pilot so that he can protect you better’
‘I see, but can it fly with us for the whole mission’
‘No it doesn’t have the range for that’
‘Right, in that case we prefer the P-51’
You might want to watch the rest of the series, especially episode 6.
The American TigerTank of the Air ... ( plus 8 .50's) ...
WW2 ace Chuck Yeager said in an interview that our 50 caliber armor piercing incendiary rounds penetrated into the aircraft and destroyed internal machinery. He said that the German 20mm ammo exploded on the aluminum skin of the plane and did less internal damage.
Let's say that aside from the Wright Flyer that the P-47 is your favorite airplane for six decades. Then Greg does this. I musta been high.
Not only informative and entertaining but it's also nice to be able to understand the Presenter/Narrator's accent.😁 It's also nice to hear him say "I'm uncertain" and/or "I couldn't verify" etc. instead of making stuff up an presenting his opinions as facts. Nice job, Greg.🙂
The Thunderbolt is my favorite WWII fighter and I have a number of books regarding this plane and Republic Aircraft. I remember reading something like "If you want to impress the girl back home have your picture taken on a P-51 and if you want get back to the girl back home do on a P-47". This might have been form the book " Thunderbolt". Thanks for these great videos.
A few things to consider:
1) 20mm cannon shells fired rather low velocity projectiles with a bursting charge, and were chosen for their destructive capabilities on bombers at very close range. The fact they didn't penetrate the armor, especially after traveling through other parts of the fuselage, isn't terribly surprising.
2) Projectiles tumble quite readily when transitioning from one medium to another. Once destabilized, their penetrative capabilities are essentially nil. Given a well built and rather thickly skinned airframe like the P-47's, the armor is essentially never taking the full force of an incoming round. Look at the effectiveness of the German's Schutzen tank armor upgrades for a clear example.
Take into consideration that any trajectory variation from perpendicular increases the armors relatively thickness, and that speed is the most critical factor in the ability of a projectile to penetrate, and it becomes rather easy to explain why field experiences will differ greatly from blasting at a solitary piece of P-47 armor with an MG 131 at 50 yds.
Watched an episode of Wings I think it as that had a P-47 pilot, Simmons or Simpson, was nursing his damaged plane from a previous attack when German Ace Myers spotted him alone. The P-47 survived 3 strafings. Myers pulled up, shook his head, waved and left. His FW 190 was out of ammo.
That was Robert S. Johnson.
Greg,
You are the man. I've been involved in general aviation for my entire adult life, and was a WW2 warbird fan since I was a kid. You are definitely one-stop shopping for getting to intimately know the particulars of the aircraft you've covered in your series. Thank you for all your hard work!
plane
Didn't the 51 drivers used to say that the 47 drivers idea of taking evasive action was to get out of the seat and run around the cockpit?
@@Moelders109 I am reminded of the similar contention between F-15 and F-16 drivers, with F-16 drivers referring to the F-15 as the "Great Prehistoric Bird Rodan" and cartoons showing an F-15 with a pair of F-16s slung as underwing ordnance.
Thanks for the video Greg!
Fascinating stuff. Thankyou for posting. 👍🏻
Great post, as usual. Thanks.
Thanks for the series on the P-47!
absolute gem of a series thanks looking forward to the next one
Thanks Greg. Simply fantastic research on the subject.
Systems redundancy, quality components, well thought out and proven design. Very resistant to catastrophic failure from virtually any cause.
Many a pilot owed his life to this tough old bird.
Outstanding video, as usual.
Greg, absolutely great video series. Love it!
On the German 20mm shell and the Bob Johnson P-47, I saw somewhere that they tend to choose explosive and/or incendiary shells, not armor piercing ones. The reason is that it was discovered early in the war, that opening roles on the enemy's fuselage was much more effective than to make a shell go through the enemy armor, since it may or may not hit something important.
I agree 100%, The Sim Sheriff make the same remark, so you are in good company.
Think of the drag that such a hole creates
@@martijn9568 Indeed. Imagine the difficulty of flying with one or more big holes on your wing. It should make you a siting duck in a dogfight.
At least one P-38 pilot claimed his 20 mm gun was loaded with explosive shells and when they recovered "Glacer Girl" they took out its its 20 mm cannon and fired at a 55 gallon drum blowing it apart with a single shot with an explosive shell.
I'm glad you mentioned the book "Thunderbolt" by Martin Caiden. I love that book. It's got some great pictures as do his other great books "Flying Forts" and "P-38, The Forked Tail Devil" to add 2 more of my favorite books.
I noticed something my dad showed me one time on a P-47, Being a Crash Crew Fireman at Point Mugu Naval Air Station it came in handy. You can see the feature in a few pics, There's a hole straight thru the Fuselage that is used to pick up the airplane along with the engine mount. Nobody else knew how to pick one up.
I like Martin Caiden. For some reason, he gets a lot of hate in the comment section here, most based on "Samurai!". Overall, I think his stuff is good. He was a real pilot, owned and flew a JU-52 and is accurate far more often than not. An occasional mistake here and there, but that's always true with this stuff.
My paternal grandfather was a Crash Crew Fireman at the Smyrna Air Base near Nashville in WWII. He had nightmares for years after the war from dragging parts of B-24 crews out of the wrecks by student pilots. He wore an asbestos suit and charged right in to try and save those guys.
Hub Zemke in his book "Zemkes wolf pack" told of taking a cannon round that killed the engine. He had a lot of altitude, and figured he could make it most of the way to the channel. When he got into heavier air, the aircraft started up and he flew back to base, no problems. The cannon round had holed the duct work for the pressure side of the turbo, and the engine didn't have the oxygen to run.
oxegen
hehe
My Christmas present, thanks Greg!
Thank you so much. Like your teaching. Keep the good job going.
Awesome video!!!
Great video Greg, thanks
Thank you very well done, This presentation answered a lot of P-47 internal structure questions and their Whys.
Another excellent video, thanks very much!
Fantastic, thank you.
Thanks for posting this part.
Another excellent presentation and very thorough.
Keep up the great work.
☺
Another great video from you. Very nice Greg. Can't wait for the next one. Thx for upload! :D
I read all I can on ww2 fighters, but the p47, I love!!! People say its ugly, but in the air, with its big wings it looks graceful!!
Thanks for another great and very technical video on WW2 aircraft
I love this series. I can’t wait to get to the episode with the gun camera footage!
Thanks once again for a very informative video full of facts and thoughts.
Greg thank you for a wonderful series of videos, solid data and knowledgeable commentary is so refreshing.
You have the BEST videos on WW2 aircraft. Fascinating material. Thank you.
Excellent video full of great information. Thanks!
I appreciate your channel!!! After a long day at the track I watch your vids to decompress !! Thank you
Awesome work!
Thanks for informative info about one great aircraft.
Completely brilliant and absorbing.
Spent my lunch yesterday watching this video. Certainly made that time much more enjoyable. Most informative as always.
Good video. I'm gaining a greater appreciation for the 47 with each episode.
Love your stuff, I enjoyed your breakdown of one of my favourite machines
absolutely fantastic.... thanks again Greg for another amazing video about the best fighter of WWII.
The two armor plates talked about in the first part of the video. I have no source but my theory is, there are indeed two stacked plates. Maybe there's two plates instead of one because the rear plate is made of a different more expensive, better quality metal. Maybe the two type metal plate combo was a compromise between protection and weight over just increasing the thickness of the original plate with the same metal.
You do a great job of researching and explaining technology around these aircraft. Good stuff, and your speech is easy to listen too also. Thanks for taking time to do these videos
Well done! You've done a brilliant job of describing the aircraft and features, and bring it all to life with your anecdotes. Truly informative while at the same time it's entertaining. I look forward to the next one
Great vid. You can be sure I'll hunt up the rest of them on the P-47s and then start on the rest.
Years ago I read voraciously every book on WWII fighter pilots that I could lay my hands on. Here's some bits and pieces I remember that you might find amusing.
-Immediately after WWII, the Russians getting difficult to deal with, LeMay withdrew the 51s and reintroduced P-47s for the projected ground attack role.
-An episode (I think in Tumult in the Sky) was related that it was a court marshalling offense for a pilot to have a woman in BOQ room. The base commander made an unannounced inspection and as luck would have it, knocked and entered the room of his top ace and watched two women trying desperately to exit the room by the far window.
At the end of the inspection the base commander mused aloud that the rule was one woman, nothing was said about two.
Mr lemonbaby : I am sure that the P47 in the Ground Attack role would not have worried the Russians
Afterall the usaaf LOST 2400/2600 IN THAT ROLE
Thanks Mr. Greg!
Wow... some of that battle damage. Certainly was a tough aircraft. Yep, you're not going to be shooting the wings off that in a single pass.
Great vid Greg, always fun to learn more about a the P-47. It was a super machine and my favorite modeling subject. Keep up the good work!
Thank, happy million year Greg!
Really like your work. Excellent video and thank you for sharing.
I love your channel because you cover all my favorite planes
Thanks for your very informative third video on my favorite fighter. One additional thing about the P-47 armor was that the head protection plate was angled forward on the bubble top to aid in deflection. I'll bet Johnson would have appreciated that feature in the razorback version that he flew against the 190. That was his first combat mission by the way. I remember reading his memoir of that event. He said that all he could do was to crank his seat down as far as possible and wait it out. I remember he said that he had his wrist watch shot off and that he tried to bail out when the plane was on fire, but couldn't because the sheet metal damage (shown by your photo) kept him from sliding the canopy back more than six inches. You can see in your photo that the side plexi-glass panel of the canopy was removed after his crash landing (after running into some parked Spitfires because the loss of hydraulic fluid left him with no brakes) allowing him to get out of the cockpit. This, by the way, is why we must keep these warbirds flying to honor these great men who flew them and there dedicated ground crews who kept them flying. One other potential hazard of the P-47 was that the pressurized return air from the supercharger had to pass through the cockpit to the engine. I did my flight training at the Spartan school of aviation in Jenks, OK in the 1970's right next to your home town of Tulsa. An old flight instructor there did some test flying of the P-47 during the war and said it was a concern, but never heard of it causing any damage. You can see these return ducts on your photo of the guys doing maintenance on a jug.
Very good article. Keep up the good work!
That was not his first combat mission. In previous mission(s) he would break formation. he got his ass chewed, and in this mission he was determined to stay where he belonged. Being in the tail of the flight he was jumped by the 190.
Kevin Schreur You're probably right about it not being his first combat mission, perhaps I read that maybe it was his first dogfight. I do remember that he was "tail end Charlie" and that his radio was not functioning so he couldn't warn the others of the incoming German planes. I remember writing a letter to Republic Aircraft in the early 60's asking for drawings of a P-47 to help with a model I was building. Robert Johnson replied to my letter with a cutaway drawing and said he hoped it would help. He had obviously landed a PR job with Republic. He was a great guy and always one of my heroes.
@@intrepid2011 "Robert Johnson replied to my letter with a cutaway drawing"
- Do you have it framed? I'd do it for sure.
great content as usual
Another great video Greg. Your combination of great research ability and down to earth presentation skills are a real asset. I really think you're onto a winning formula! Keep up the great work. Happy New Year from New Zealand.
There was an interesting study done during WWII by the brits (I think). A group was tasked to try and stem the massive bomber losses (1943/44?) and so they started surveying battle damage to the aircraft that returned. Lets say for statistical purposes they broke the airframe up into zones when counting hits. Overwhelmingly over the span of a month surveying a couple of hundred airframes it emerged for example that Zones A and C were getting plenty of hits, Zone D about 50% less and Zone B next to none. A recommendation was made to armour plate Zone B. The Bomber Command initially questioned this advice - surely - if A and C were receiving the hits then that is where the armour needed to be (seems logical). The answer is even more logical - the surveys were completed on planes that made it BACK to the UK after their mission. Clearly, the planes were still capable of flying if hit in A,C, and to a lesser extent D. The fact that there were only a few with hits to Zone B that made it back showed that your odds of making it back to the UK were slim if you got hit there. Ergo the 'odd' decision.
Bismark has a good video on that exact subject: ua-cam.com/video/B3YQJ5DwTzM/v-deo.html
Fantastic logic, thanks
This is similar to the studies on helmet effectiveness in wwi.
Studies showed an enormous increase in head wounds at the hospitals once helmets were issued.
This seemed counterintuitive until it was realized that before helmets were issued many of those wounds were never counted as such. They didn’t make it to the hospitals. They’d been fatalities.
The same logic was applied to the B29's that returned from bombing missions over Japan. The B29's that returned did not show damage from being hit in the engine nacelles. Engineers installed armour to protect the B29's engines and the survivability did increase significantly on those missions.
Well done, thorough: the source drawings/documents/testimony is greatly appreciated. Thank you for sharing.
Love your videos !
Great episode 👍
I saw a P-47 in Seattle ,it was a beast of an airplane. Great technical information 👌.
This stuff is pure gold. Thank you for your hard work putting these videos together.
the extensive rear fuselage structure and ducting of the P-47 can cause even 20mm rounds to begin to tumble and lose most of their penetrating power by the time they reach the actual armor plate...effectively a spaced armor concept
Greg - Happy New Year ! And thanks for all your hard work making this video. I can tell it is a labor of love - but still - I see a ton of work and extreme devotion to the subject matter as well as Ground Truth. It's totally appreciated. I love how you gave the turbocharged Pratt & Whitney R-2800 it's due regard as the heart of the Thunderbolt, a sword in the hands of an aggressive airman like Johnson and capable of shielding bullets away from that man. Many of them hauled on home with entire cylinders missing (blown clean through the cowling) and their connecting rods flailing away out in the breeze. Corsair pilots also sang the praises of the mighty Double Wasp as a true mechanical ally in the struggle to win or at least survive Air Combat.
PS - At 1:32 AM CST 1/1/2019 the counter shows 666 thumbs up and ZERO THUMBS DOWN.
Been watching UA-cam since 2004 and I have never seen that before !
Great video. Tough old bird from Republic. Thank you.
Holy crap that plane is tough.
Your knowledge.....your research..your calmness of voice, confidence. Fantastic ! really great work. Subscribing now.
My Dad worked on P 47's during WWII and had stories that impressed me about the durability of the 47. He observed planes landing with large trees named in the wings. And they all made it home safely. What a tough plane.
2400 lost in the G/A role never made it home It should never have been used in that role It was too large and not manoeuvrable enough
I agree that the book “Thunderbolt!” is a fantastic read. I especially like how the author explains why certain upgrades helped him in combat. As always, thank you for this great series on a legendary aircraft.
Always interesting Greg 👍
This is so so good!
Nice, been looking forward to this.
Thanks but I'm not sure what you mean? Looking forward to Pt. 3, or to Armor and protection specifically?
So... you like the thunderbolt?
I sure do, your videos are great, I'm not joking when I say these videos should be in national archives, you're doing a historian's work.
Thanks Birdy. I do like the Thunderbolt, but I like a lot of planes. I am just focusing on the Thunderbolt for the first in the series because it allows me to cover a lot of the major principles we will be using in the future, and all in one airplane, i.e. supercharging, turbocharging, fuel injection, mach numbers, tail warning radar, etc.
Fantastic work as always! Behind the FW-190, the P-47 is probably my favorite aircraft of the war.
"This P-47 landed on a 500lb bomb and the pilot survived". I don't even have words. I love the P-47, not sure how good of a fighter it was but it certainly does a few things obscenely well.
Olivia : As a fighter it was very good as a Ground attack not so good
@@skyscall 3 years late, but if you've watched Gregg's next videos of the p47, that's not really true. The introduction of the paddle prop and 2800 hp upgrade in 1944 made the p47 competitive in a climb with the latest german fighters. Hell, USAAF ace Robert S. johnson mentions in his diary just how much perfomance the paddle prop added to the p47 in terms of climb performance. That is certainly true in earlier p47 variants, but not at all true in 1944 towards the end of the war in 1945. The plane continued to improve and was a force to be reckoned with. To say it was a mediocre fighter is false, it did most of the heavy lifting in the European theater before the merlin powered p51's arrived in large numbers. Again, watch Gregg's later videos on it, he discusses climb performance and maneuverability
Thanks Greg. I was oblivious to the 47 and its superior design and performance until now!
Awesome!