There are two very popular trends in custom rifles right now: small calibers with high BCs and velocity, and large calibers with extremely efficient bullet design at subsonic speeds for dedicated suppressor use.
It’s a beast, I shoot 85.5 grain Berger’s at 3350fps. Nothing has walked away from it yet. Shot a whitetail and it was struck by lightning, I was shooting crows at 300 pretty easy.
@@xntumrfo9ivrnwf that is like 2,200 yards. Half that distance would be wildly unethical. Even if someone could "hit an animal" that far away, doesn't mean they should. Big difference between a hit and a clean kill.
Yes I have one and I love it. I rebarrelled a Savage GRS 6MM Creedmoor after lack luster results on the loading bench. The 22 Creed like all Creedmoor loadings tend to LOVE H4350. It’s a zero recoil having, bughole group making dream with a Hornady 75 Grain BTHP at 25 Thousandths jump. So far the 82g Bergers, 88g ELD and the 90g Sierra ALL shoot lights out. Have yet to shoot the 90g A Tips or 95g HPBT Sierra. Also as a side note I’m running brand new Peterson Brass Can’t wait to punish the P Dogs this spring!!
So I’m not particularly interested in this cartridge but I enjoyed the talk anyway. I found you guys last winter and binged all the 10min cartridge talks. Glad to see you doing more of them.
I have on order a 22 Creedmoor that should be done in about 6 months. I chose this one based on the predator hunting I do: Coyotes and Wolves. The 22-250 was my favorite but with the 50 grain V-max's leaving the muzzle at 4,006 FPS, they really dropped off past 400 yards and questionable whether they could down a Wolf. This new cartridge gets me the best of both worlds, close in for the close calls, then I can also take out a Wolf (much bigger than a Coyote) but also take out Coyotes at distances up to 600-700 yards. This 22 Creedmoor is a game changer for sure.
@@martinrichard-r1v With a 50 grain? Not sure, but anything is possible. I did get a chance to stretch the legs on the 22 Creedmoor and it was amazing out to 900 yards with my 80 grain Berger VLD Targets, but did not do well in the winds.
Another great talk. Would be cool see you guys turn back the clock, and talk about the .22 Hornet. Efficient, mild report (for a center fire .22), near zero recoil, and beats the .22 magnum.
I run the 95 gr Sierra match king and it's been stupid accurate, barrel life is claimed to be 700 - 1000 rounds but if you want cheap with good barrel life shoot a 22LR
I like that 70 grain Barnes as well, but they recently released an LRX in 77 grain that has a substantially higher bc of .404 vs .323 for the 70gr tsx. Probably a perfect match for this cartridge imo.
@@marcmoore4115 Sure, Nosler was the only bullet I hunted with when I used cup and core bullets. Never had a bad experience with them. I did have a jacket separation once, but it was still a fatal wound with no track job. I just prefer to use copper for hunting these days as I don't like eating lead, which if you've ever seen those x-rays of ground game meat, you'll realize you are eating some quantity of lead. Just my preference
@@BcFuTw9jt LMAO not even remotely. I'm a red blooded pipe welder. I haven't been in a doctor's office in years. I do geek out about ballistics pretty often though. Edit I just realized you're probably talking about me not wanting to eat lead. You wouldn't drink water you knew had lead contamination would you? So why eat it when you don't have to?
Very accurate and would have to say the most fun to shoot cartridge I have! No recoil and it’s amazing! Seems to be very forgiving with all my hand loads under 3/4” in different powders and bullets.
Why don’t we stir the pot and do a comparison of the 300 WSM, the 300 RCM, and the 300 SAUM? There are some interesting point to be made, considering the philosophy behind each of these cartridges being so different.
I have a 224 Clark made in the 1960s and it uses the 257 Roberts improved case with a 1 in 9 twist. It used 80 and 82 grain bullets. It was way ahead of its time. Great conversation.
I think it’s probably because hard paper data on how barrel life’s compare is difficult to come by. There’s a lot of people out there making claims but I bet it’s hard to sort that out.
Think that would be less relevant in a bolt gun, especially for hunting. And if you can afford to shoot out the barrel you can probably afford a new one.
This has become my favorite pod to listen to passively at work. You're also correct on every cartridge you talk about makes me want something chambered in it! Lol
Barrel life is the challenge with a coyote gun. We want something fast that doesn't destroy the bore in a few hundred shots. That's honestly why I'm considering the 223 because even though I have to call them in closer the ammo is cheap and the barrels last way longer than other options.
I am over 800 shots into my 22 creed and I havent had to change my load since day 1 still shoots .4" groups or smaller all day long. If I have to change a barrel every 4 or 5 years so be it. The performance is more than worth the cost.
Definitely a cool cartridge I just had a 22-250AI built with a 1:7 twist to hunt coyotes at long range and white tail deer 250ish yards and in. I was looking hard at the 22 Creedmoor but I've always loved the 22-250REM so I went with the 22-250AI. Great video guys as always keepem coming!!!
@@DaveL9170 I'm right here in SW Louisiana... Out of curiosity is your 22-250 have a fast twist barrel or are you using the standard 1:14 or 1:12 twist??? But I agree I've killed tons of coyotes, deer, and hogs with a standard 22-250 only problem is I have 3 of them and wanted something different. The only thing that kept me from going to a 22 Creedmoor is I shoot a good bit and figured I'd burn the barrel out much faster then my 22-250REM or 22-250AI...
Ive loved wildcatting since very young, learned to read on ackleys works. From the 22-243 middlestead and other snot rockets guys had in the 70s running 70-110 gr .224 bullets i read about, the only thing we have truly capitalized with now is the high bc bullets. Those early innovations were largely round nose long bullets with reamer cuts in the .3s for fb. These are nothing new, but the efficiency in case shape in addition to bullet designs we are seeing is growing in the right direction. Ive shot strictly .224 calibers for prs and nrl the past 2 years. From 223 223ai 22br 22gt and 22creed, comparing them all in performance. Even from the diminutive 223ai with 85.5s cleaned a stage at 1740 in the bw series, added horse power truly is just more of a good thing. Went through several 22creed barrels, and while a hot setup its lackluster barrel life is very hard to overlook for match style shooting. Including load development and sight in at matches, it would basically be a new barrel every 4 matches. And yet the 223s are going over 6k rounds and still punching .2-.3 groups? What is the balance? The 22GT. I get the same velocity with 90s and 95s with 8 less grains of powder which equates into less recoil (marginally as it is so light anyway) but barrel life has been phenomenal. Well over 2k rounds on all my barrels so far and some are leaving them over 3k rounds. Compare that to the 8-900 the creed barely makes it to there is no choice. P.s. the comment about the 22-250 ai vs creed is a little misleading because those of us that started with the 22 creed years ago were fireforming from 22 250 brass... the differences are negligible.
People have been wildcatting pretty much every cartridge for decades. The biggest recent advantage is the longer heavier bullets in every caliber that improve long range ballistics. Eventually you still hit that barrel burner barrier.
Guys, hear me out! 220 swift, updated to 65000 psi pressures to match 22-250 (its currently 62000), with a Creedmoor or valkyrie style shoulder/neck, a 1 in 7/8/or 9 twist, and those big ol' 90 grain .224 bullets that made the 224 valkyrie popular. That would be a badass cartridge!
To me it usually comes down to twist rate. Just as the .224 Valkyrie was fighting to get a foothold in the market, people started saying "I think I'll just rebarrel my .22-250 with an 8 inch twist".
This should be just shy of what a .22-.243 Middlestead achieves. There’s also the .22-6mm Rem, commonly known as a .22 Coyote, which is almost like a laser beam with 69-77gr bullets which also goes by the name of .22 TTH with the heaviest of .22 cal bullets and a faster twist barrel.
I've also seen the 22 creedmoor and 22-250's shoot its best at about 2800 fps which is where the 223 shoots best at in our f-class guns. The other issue that arises with 90's is the twist rate. I know the berger 90 vld's jacket can't handle the RPM once the barrel starts to get some fire cracking in it. As far as the 90smk's are concerned I don't have a lot of experience with them so I can't really speak on that.
22 creedmoor you get no barrel life and a short action, 224 valk you get no case life and it fits in a mini action. 22 grendel is probably a better choice than either, especially in a bolt action where you can use pressures ar-15s can't handle due to the .440 bolt face requirement. the 80-95 grain .224 bullets have some insane BCs.
@@alexgeislinger6021 A lifespan of well under 2000, likely 1000-1500 shots to be expected. 22-250 AI is already pretty much the limit of how much powder you can sanely put behind a .224 pill and this has significantly more. Much better to drop a couple hundred fps and go with 75-95s at 2800-3000 fps with the 22 grendel tbh.
@@PineyJustice Although I agree with you that the 22 grendel is an awesome cartridge and I do plan on owning one in a bolt gun one day. I dont really get why people get so uptight about something being a barrel burner. 1300-1500 shots is the life expectancy of damn near every competition rifle cartridge and even barrel life is up for interpretation because where do you draw the line? When groups open up to .5, .75, or 1 inch or even more? I also know plenty of people that have 1500+ rounds through a 22 creed and it still shoots lights out. Even if 1500 is max in a gun that is solely used for deer and coyotes, that is a lot of years and critters under that rifles belt. I have right around 700 through mine and I've had it for 2 years most of my shooting was in the early stages when I was figuring out what works and doesn't. So I figure I have 3-4 more years and 100s of coyotes left in the gun. I'll gladly pay an extra $600 every 5-6 years to get a new barrel fit and get 4 to 500 extra fps which is a massive difference in performance.
@@alexgeislinger6021 Fair, but it's rather bad design, low efficiency, expensive, loud and you only get a couple hundred fps more. Cool concept but 243 does everything it does better already with light bullets.
I have 300 prc 6.5 creed and 6 creed. Love all three. About to build a 6.5 prc. Looks like I’ve got another build coming straight up after that one now😂👍😊 Outstanding vids guys👌
Anyone buying a 22 creed, look at the short action customs modular dies for creedmore family. It uses a neck shoulder bushing so you can do the entire Creedmor family with one excellent die.
Colorado has a max caliber restriction of .23cal for small game and furbearers west of I-25/Front Range - the 22Creed sounds perfect for sitting on a hill with a nice view in Western CO callin' in some yotes. I like the Tikka and KRG idea - I've had great performance from my current Tikka action. Now....ammo availability...that might get difficult sourcing primers/brass...
At 13 minutes when Ryan sees the ad pages on the floor! Absolutely funny! Whay are major rifle makers NOT giving us offerings in this cartridge???? I called Savage, Ruger and Howa. None of the folks I talked to had info. I live in Florida and don't own a Vortex hoodie. Life is hard without a 22 CM rifle and a Vortex hoodie. Keep up the great work boys!!!
Hornady needs to leave it alone. It's fine just like it is. If Hornady starts messing with it, they will most certainly screw it up. The fact that its a wildcat means that all the specs can remain nice and tight and we can have really accurate rifles and good quality Peterson brass. If Hornady gets their paws on it, you'll end up with a glorified, re-branded 22-250, and when you go to get a barrel, you won't know if you're buying a good, accurate barrel, or some piece of crap that was chambered and built to Hornady's specs.
I have a PRS rifle chambered in a 7 twist running a 95 gr. SMK @ 3150 FPS at sea level. Very flat shooting setup. Runs right there with all the 6mm's. You must maintain the throat to keep it heathy at those speeds and weight of bullet though. I reload using a single base Vihtavuori N165 power. Run's a little cooler.
@@nathanielgray4235 Although I had N560 to try and did try H4350 first. I seen to much pressure trying to achieve 3100 plus with it. N165 isn't as temp stable as H4350 but it appears to run cooler and preserve the throat and leade quit well knowing I was going to run it hard and fast. Anything over 3150-3175 with a 7 twist and the 95 SMK isn't 100% that the bullet will make it to your target. Over RPM and fly apart. I have sense slowed it down to 3100 for these hot Texas summer days if I compete with that rifle. I believe I ran N560 though QuickLoad at one time and it was a candidate.
Basically the same thing as 22-243 middlestead which uses a 243 case. Barrel life is a major concern with 22-243 22 cheetah or any of these short action 22s. 22 grendel based on the 220 russian - 6mm br - 6.5 grendel line seems to be the way to go, more reasonable velocities with good barrel life shooting the same bullets. If you really want the speed and can deal with 1500 round barrel life, 22 creed / 22-243 middlestead seems to be the best option for a very high velocity very high bc bullet shooting a 90 grain.
I like that too ... lights out with relatively inexpensive Win USA 45gr hp. BUT, I think the Barnes bullets 70gr or 77gr in the 22Creed makes it a different animal. I'm considering iot...
22cm is significantly flatter. The 6xc with a 105gr ELD will have roughly 15" more drop at 600 yds, and 1-1/4" more wind drift with a 10mph cross wind. If you have a 6cm throated to take a 115 DTAC, the DTAC drops 16-1/2" more than the 22cm, but has about 1-1/2" less wind drift. So the 22cm shoots significantly flatter, and with a 75gr VLD it splits the difference in wind drift between a 105gr ELD and a 115gr DTAC. I suspect that with heavier bullets you can get better performance in the wind than what you can get from a 115gr DTAC, but I don't know what you'd be giving up in regards to trajectory. I'm sure it would still shoot flatter than the DTAC, but not sure by how much.
I’ll keep my .22-250 for down here in TEXAS thanks!!! I can reliably drop deer, black bear, elk (yes, I dropped a cow elk with it!), and certainly pigs. My .22-250 with 60 grain Nosler Partitions is good for anything walking in North America except for the largest of the bears and musk ox. It shoots like a laser beam and drops pigs in their tracks. Almost zero recoil and AMAZING penetration capabilities. The Nosler Partition is the basest of the bad boys. Opens almost immediately and the core drives through hard.
22-250 is a good round but it’s stupid and inhuman to use it for elk or bear. It will 100% wound if you hit bone or get a bad shot. There’s a reason almost everyone in Alaska uses a 308, 30-06 at minimum.
It's a fine idea. And that's from a .220 Swift fan (my first centerfire which I got in Jr High). .22 Creedmoor is like a Swift or Cheetah with room for VLD's. With small pocket Lapua brass, to boot. Will eat barrels faster than bigger Creedmoors, though. And I wouldn't push it for anything bigger than a whitetail, and with very careful shot selection on them.
Before this was out there was the 22LRV (long range varmint). Its a 6xc necked to 22 cal. My brother in law built one of specs from West Texas Ordnance. Its a shooter.
There's also a straight up 22xc out there. I don't recall if Tubb is selling brass for it or not, but a 6XC die with the appropriate sizing bushing is all it takes to convert the 6xc brass. End result is a tack driving barn burner with a nice, long neck.
Seems like the more I watch this channel, we’ll it would not exist without the guy on the right side of the screen. He is the brain of the operation. The guy closest to the screen tries to be a smart, but gets corrected, The guy in the back is like the little brother or friend who just wants his opinion heard that know one takes seriously. Anyways I’ve subbed, liked! Keep up the great content. Would like to know more detail about this cartridge.
As cool as the 22 creed might be I can’t imagine it’s much different than a fast twist 22/250AI… just an observation, not being a negative nancy. I picked up a Bergara 22/250 hmr which has a 9” twist and I wonder what the different case capacity of the 3 are…
I just threw a brake on my 6.5crd to try and squeeze all the accuracy I can out of it, and the new recoil impulse is exactly as Ryan describes " the rifle just shakes" 😂
I'm working on a vintage rifle with some custom stuff done to it like my 1953 Remington 721 270 Ackley. I was going to find an old Remington or Ruger in 22 250 throw on a fast twist Ackley improved barrel but now I'm thinking I completely different strategy around the 22 creedmoor
big choice to make between these two small Creedmoor for such variety of shooting. was going to revisit forty years ago and chase a krico 222, but these things have so much want.
You will get a caliber that will most likely burn out a barrel in less than 900 rounds (depending on the barrel maker) of ammo unless you get it hot shooting 300 yard F-Class etc. where you shoot 22 rounds in 20 mins. then maybe 600 rounds. It's good for Gunsmiths like me, i charge $400 for a barrel and $300 to put the barrel on. It's a win win for me. Basically the same principle as the 6.5-284 or 6.5 PRC or 22-250 Ackley or 22-243 Middlested or 22-284 and when they burn the throat it's not worth setting the barrel back becasuse it will burn the barrel way forward of the throat as well because of the amount of powder used. 6mm Creed. is already a barrel burner and a .22 Creed?. well, it's way over bore capacity and has a thirst for barrel throats. I and barrel makers will love it.
I have played with the thought of rebarreling my 22-250 when its burned out. However I've shot a 22-250 since I was a kid and is one of my favorites. I have enjoyed watching these talks and was curious if you could do one on the wssm cartridges 243 wssm, 223 wssm, 25 wssm?
Thanks for the 10 minute talks I love your show I watch it almost everyday but I have a question I have owned a 7mm 08 and I've also on a 260 and a 243 I'm like almost every man out there I would like to own at least one of each caliber but could you do a comparison of the 260 Remington versus 243 ,7mm 08 and 6.5 creedmoor I've got my thoughts on this but I'm still learning I've learned a lot from you guys I would like to hear what you think about it
Can you guys do or talk about the fine details about all things considered...for example..22 creedmoor..22 nosler ....the 24. ..the Grendel hEtc..etc..and discuss case size ...if over bore applies ...a barrel burner ...amount of rounds before barrel is cooked what problems why one manufacturer made it the way they did ...longer necks ...case capacity...if they will work in semi auto’s...over bolt actions ....up here in Canada we are limited to what we can use ...in states..the ar platform ...case life.barrel length ...longer better than a shorter I’d love to hear things explained...why and what was the reason manufacturers went the way they did And the reasons for there conclusion..... Great videos and pod casts...keep up the good work Cheers from Canada!!!
It's an absolutely hellacious long range varmint round too, one of my best friends has hammered coyotes at over 600yds and they drop like their strings are cut. He likes to use 75gr ELD-M, and he's pushing them just a hair over 3400, and he's getting grenade-like expansions out to 500yds and still getting reliable expansion out to about 900 (using a ballistic calculator and adjusting velocity accordingly to test on gel) And in a 10+lb rifle on a bipod he has zero recoil, it's almost like shooting a pellet rifle except for the noise.
You mention how in many states there is minimum size requirements for big game. You guys should do a 10 minute talk on why that is and if it makes sense
I can speak from experience on 22 caliber 90gr bullets. A 140 grain 6.5 bullet and even a 200.20x out of a 308 will greatly outperform them in f-class. Especially at 1000 yds. At 600 yds the 90's can hold their own pretty good, but still are outperformed by bigger and heavier bullets. If it's calm they do good comparatively.
So the 22 Creedmoor is worthless, beyond 600 compared to 6.5 ,30 cals? I'm interested, to know. 90 .224 smk has got to go fast to catch 6 5, or 30 at a grand. If .224 90 grainer can get to 3400 it might, jackets blow up easy that fast though. I'd say your right
The trouble you will find is that as you head into the longer heavier, high BC bullets, you rapidly run out of sturdy enough bullets to penetrate very much before they expand. Generally, the bullet manufacturers just don’t see enough of a market for heavy 22-caliber hunting bullets. I have a friend who hunts deer with a 22-250. he is an excellent shot who owns several hay fields. He has fixed blinds to set up in, and aims for the eye on a front quartering shot. The animal dies instantly.
Not yet available as a component the 69gr Sierra blitz king shows promise, hoping to see Berger release a high BC varmint bullet similar to those 6mm offering
I was hoping they would compare it too .243 specifically. Based on the weights and numbers they were throwing out there it sounds like it might have more velocity in a 90 grain bullet than .243. If they are neck and neck then they don’t do the most important thing better than .243 for a lot of people. Commercial ammo selection.
Also the 90gr 224 bullet has suck a higher B.C. over the 90gr 243 bullet. Kind of hard to compare I think. That bullet must cut the wind like a hot knife through butter
While I always like variety & choices, even in bone stock 6.5 Creedmoor you can get major-brand factory ammo between 95-147 grains (Hornady, Winchester, Barnes).
Barrel life is the only draw back at 1000 rds if shooting PRS, for a regular hunter, looking like 1500 rounds. Deer, antelope, coyote gun, that has great BC performance. My friend dropped his antelope with my gun at 350 yards with an 88 eldm. I ran it out to 1265 on steel, and it was out performing the 25 cm! I built mine for stubborn coyotes that hang up at 400 yards and out.
Wow!! You guys are killing it with all the 10 min cartridge talks. Thank You!!!
I don't know about that , as they are constantly going over ten ?
They should probably rename them ‘10-ish’ minute talks haha. I like them, but they just don’t quite fit in to my commute.
With more heavy for caliber bullets coming out I believe the 22, 6mm, 25creed are going to keep getting more popular
There are two very popular trends in custom rifles right now: small calibers with high BCs and velocity, and large calibers with extremely efficient bullet design at subsonic speeds for dedicated suppressor use.
Turns out, nothing within 400 yards is fun shooting anymore. The only game in town is trying to hit stuff past 500-600 yards. It's all the rage.
These cartridge talks are absolutely the best thing this holiday season! Thank you Mark, Jim and Ryan. Looking forward to the next two. 👊🏻
It’s a beast, I shoot 85.5 grain Berger’s at 3350fps. Nothing has walked away from it yet. Shot a whitetail and it was struck by lightning, I was shooting crows at 300 pretty easy.
Would it be possible to hit an animal from approx 2km away? Thx
@@xntumrfo9ivrnwf I am sure there is someone out there that can do it.
@@xntumrfo9ivrnwf that is like 2,200 yards. Half that distance would be wildly unethical. Even if someone could "hit an animal" that far away, doesn't mean they should. Big difference between a hit and a clean kill.
@@demetriuscooksey7147 hit a squirrel at that distance and it will be ethical 🤣 hitting one at that distance will make you God himself.
Holy jumping that’s fast ..3350
Yes I have one and I love it. I rebarrelled a Savage GRS 6MM Creedmoor after lack luster results on the loading bench. The 22 Creed like all Creedmoor loadings tend to LOVE H4350. It’s a zero recoil having, bughole group making dream with a Hornady 75 Grain BTHP at 25 Thousandths jump. So far the 82g Bergers, 88g ELD and the 90g Sierra ALL shoot lights out. Have yet to shoot the 90g A Tips or 95g HPBT Sierra. Also as a side note I’m running brand new Peterson Brass Can’t wait to punish the P Dogs this spring!!
So I’m not particularly interested in this cartridge but I enjoyed the talk anyway. I found you guys last winter and binged all the 10min cartridge talks. Glad to see you doing more of them.
I have on order a 22 Creedmoor that should be done in about 6 months. I chose this one based on the predator hunting I do: Coyotes and Wolves. The 22-250 was my favorite but with the 50 grain V-max's leaving the muzzle at 4,006 FPS, they really dropped off past 400 yards and questionable whether they could down a Wolf. This new cartridge gets me the best of both worlds, close in for the close calls, then I can also take out a Wolf (much bigger than a Coyote) but also take out Coyotes at distances up to 600-700 yards. This 22 Creedmoor is a game changer for sure.
killed a stone sheep 550 yards , one shot with my 22 250
@@martinrichard-r1v With a 50 grain? Not sure, but anything is possible. I did get a chance to stretch the legs on the 22 Creedmoor and it was amazing out to 900 yards with my 80 grain Berger VLD Targets, but did not do well in the winds.
I'm in the process of working on 22 250 ackley one in seven twist i think i'll stick with that
Found my new favorite podcast. Now I'm going to end up with a bunch of new rifles in calibers I didn't know I needed.
haha we appreciate that, Corey! There's always room for just one more rifle ;)
@@VortexNation My gunsafe disagrees.
@@WayStedYou Might be time for a new gunsafe ;)
Another great talk. Would be cool see you guys turn back the clock, and talk about the .22 Hornet. Efficient, mild report (for a center fire .22), near zero recoil, and beats the .22 magnum.
My dad has one in a ruger m77 and it’s a dream to shoot. No recoil and I was watching hickory nuts turn to fairy dust. One word awesome.
I run the 95 gr Sierra match king and it's been stupid accurate, barrel life is claimed to be 700 - 1000 rounds but if you want cheap with good barrel life shoot a 22LR
U can’t get good performance and good barrel life
Brilliant videos keep up the good work .
Could you please make a video on the 6.5x55 swede thank.
I like that 70 grain Barnes as well, but they recently released an LRX in 77 grain that has a substantially higher bc of .404 vs .323 for the 70gr tsx. Probably a perfect match for this cartridge imo.
Personally, I'm thinking about the 70gr AccuBond.
@@marcmoore4115 Sure, Nosler was the only bullet I hunted with when I used cup and core bullets. Never had a bad experience with them. I did have a jacket separation once, but it was still a fatal wound with no track job. I just prefer to use copper for hunting these days as I don't like eating lead, which if you've ever seen those x-rays of ground game meat, you'll realize you are eating some quantity of lead. Just my preference
@@robertmajors1737 You sound vaccinated
@@BcFuTw9jt LMAO not even remotely. I'm a red blooded pipe welder. I haven't been in a doctor's office in years. I do geek out about ballistics pretty often though. Edit I just realized you're probably talking about me not wanting to eat lead. You wouldn't drink water you knew had lead contamination would you? So why eat it when you don't have to?
Very accurate and would have to say the most fun to shoot cartridge I have! No recoil and it’s amazing! Seems to be very forgiving with all my hand loads under 3/4” in different powders and bullets.
Why don’t we stir the pot and do a comparison of the 300 WSM, the 300 RCM, and the 300 SAUM? There are some interesting point to be made, considering the philosophy behind each of these cartridges being so different.
Never new there was a 300SAUM sounds very interesting thanks for the info mate cheers
@brettstewart8765 300 SAUM was the first rifle I ever bought, in 2003. It's what got me into handloading and I still love it.
Love it. Running a 22 inch barrel with 80.5 gr Bergers at 3400fps. Replaced my 22-250.
Where did you get the barrel?
I’ve always loved these 10 minute cartridge talks! Keep it goin fellas
I have a 224 Clark made in the 1960s and it uses the 257 Roberts improved case with a 1 in 9 twist. It used 80 and 82 grain bullets. It was way ahead of its time. Great conversation.
7x75 Mauser casing has been a good parent for a lot of stuff.
Have 2 absolutely love them waiting on my MDT chassis for the second now!
🙌🙌
Love the Talk's, but it seems like barrel life is never mentioned when comparing a lot of these cartridges?
I think it’s probably because hard paper data on how barrel life’s compare is difficult to come by. There’s a lot of people out there making claims but I bet it’s hard to sort that out.
Think that would be less relevant in a bolt gun, especially for hunting. And if you can afford to shoot out the barrel you can probably afford a new one.
This has become my favorite pod to listen to passively at work. You're also correct on every cartridge you talk about makes me want something chambered in it! Lol
Barrel life is the challenge with a coyote gun. We want something fast that doesn't destroy the bore in a few hundred shots. That's honestly why I'm considering the 223 because even though I have to call them in closer the ammo is cheap and the barrels last way longer than other options.
I am over 800 shots into my 22 creed and I havent had to change my load since day 1 still shoots .4" groups or smaller all day long. If I have to change a barrel every 4 or 5 years so be it. The performance is more than worth the cost.
22-250 over 223 all day far out performs and not a barrel burner. although with just shooting coyotes I cant imagine you'll burn barrels out.
How many coyotes do you shoot?!
@@alexgeislinger6021 What barrel brand, material, length, twist?
@@preachers4135 26" bartlien stainless with 1×8" twist
I have a 6mm Creeedmoor and it is a laser. I can imagine a .22 Creed with really heavy pills and a fast twist would hammer.
Definitely a cool cartridge I just had a 22-250AI built with a 1:7 twist to hunt coyotes at long range and white tail deer 250ish yards and in. I was looking hard at the 22 Creedmoor but I've always loved the 22-250REM so I went with the 22-250AI. Great video guys as always keepem coming!!!
My .22-250 is a laser beam of death down here in south TEXAS. Drops critters with authority.
@@DaveL9170 I'm right here in SW Louisiana... Out of curiosity is your 22-250 have a fast twist barrel or are you using the standard 1:14 or 1:12 twist??? But I agree I've killed tons of coyotes, deer, and hogs with a standard 22-250 only problem is I have 3 of them and wanted something different. The only thing that kept me from going to a 22 Creedmoor is I shoot a good bit and figured I'd burn the barrel out much faster then my 22-250REM or 22-250AI...
Ive loved wildcatting since very young, learned to read on ackleys works.
From the 22-243 middlestead and other snot rockets guys had in the 70s running 70-110 gr .224 bullets i read about, the only thing we have truly capitalized with now is the high bc bullets.
Those early innovations were largely round nose long bullets with reamer cuts in the .3s for fb.
These are nothing new, but the efficiency in case shape in addition to bullet designs we are seeing is growing in the right direction. Ive shot strictly .224 calibers for prs and nrl the past 2 years.
From 223 223ai 22br 22gt and 22creed, comparing them all in performance.
Even from the diminutive 223ai with 85.5s cleaned a stage at 1740 in the bw series, added horse power truly is just more of a good thing.
Went through several 22creed barrels, and while a hot setup its lackluster barrel life is very hard to overlook for match style shooting. Including load development and sight in at matches, it would basically be a new barrel every 4 matches.
And yet the 223s are going over 6k rounds and still punching .2-.3 groups?
What is the balance?
The 22GT. I get the same velocity with 90s and 95s with 8 less grains of powder which equates into less recoil (marginally as it is so light anyway) but barrel life has been phenomenal. Well over 2k rounds on all my barrels so far and some are leaving them over 3k rounds. Compare that to the 8-900 the creed barely makes it to there is no choice.
P.s. the comment about the 22-250 ai vs creed is a little misleading because those of us that started with the 22 creed years ago were fireforming from 22 250 brass... the differences are negligible.
What barrel make, material, length, twist rate do you think would be best in light of this?
@@preachers4135 7.5 if you want heavys. Works even with the 95s if you push em fast. Perfect for 88 85 80 75 grain combos
@@calebconner6127 Thank you.
@@preachers4135 you bet. We have been very successful with that combo. Berger 85.5s at mid 3100 in a 7.5 twist is just ridiculous
these 10 min talks are the most interesting ..keep them coming.
People have been wildcatting pretty much every cartridge for decades. The biggest recent advantage is the longer heavier bullets in every caliber that improve long range ballistics. Eventually you still hit that barrel burner barrier.
Guys, hear me out! 220 swift, updated to 65000 psi pressures to match 22-250 (its currently 62000), with a Creedmoor or valkyrie style shoulder/neck, a 1 in 7/8/or 9 twist, and those big ol' 90 grain .224 bullets that made the 224 valkyrie popular. That would be a badass cartridge!
.220 swft AI has been here. The bullet shredded at the rpm, and throat erosion was *swift*😮
New powders and bullets would be neat to try.
To me it usually comes down to twist rate. Just as the .224 Valkyrie was fighting to get a foothold in the market, people started saying "I think I'll just rebarrel my .22-250 with an 8 inch twist".
Makes lots of sense Kurt and also a different barrel for the good old 243.
@@baobo67 I have a 9.25" twist on my 243. Wish I had 2 of them, 8 inch and 10 inch.
This should be just shy of what a .22-.243 Middlestead achieves. There’s also the .22-6mm Rem, commonly known as a .22 Coyote, which is almost like a laser beam with 69-77gr bullets which also goes by the name of .22 TTH with the heaviest of .22 cal bullets and a faster twist barrel.
I've also seen the 22 creedmoor and 22-250's shoot its best at about 2800 fps which is where the 223 shoots best at in our f-class guns. The other issue that arises with 90's is the twist rate. I know the berger 90 vld's jacket can't handle the RPM once the barrel starts to get some fire cracking in it. As far as the 90smk's are concerned I don't have a lot of experience with them so I can't really speak on that.
I would also like to know y’all’s thought on the 22 creedmoor vs the 224 Valkyrie.
I love the cartridge conversations btw.
22 creedmoor you get no barrel life and a short action, 224 valk you get no case life and it fits in a mini action. 22 grendel is probably a better choice than either, especially in a bolt action where you can use pressures ar-15s can't handle due to the .440 bolt face requirement. the 80-95 grain .224 bullets have some insane BCs.
By no barrel life you mean what exactly?
@@alexgeislinger6021 A lifespan of well under 2000, likely 1000-1500 shots to be expected. 22-250 AI is already pretty much the limit of how much powder you can sanely put behind a .224 pill and this has significantly more. Much better to drop a couple hundred fps and go with 75-95s at 2800-3000 fps with the 22 grendel tbh.
@@PineyJustice Although I agree with you that the 22 grendel is an awesome cartridge and I do plan on owning one in a bolt gun one day. I dont really get why people get so uptight about something being a barrel burner. 1300-1500 shots is the life expectancy of damn near every competition rifle cartridge and even barrel life is up for interpretation because where do you draw the line? When groups open up to .5, .75, or 1 inch or even more? I also know plenty of people that have 1500+ rounds through a 22 creed and it still shoots lights out. Even if 1500 is max in a gun that is solely used for deer and coyotes, that is a lot of years and critters under that rifles belt. I have right around 700 through mine and I've had it for 2 years most of my shooting was in the early stages when I was figuring out what works and doesn't. So I figure I have 3-4 more years and 100s of coyotes left in the gun. I'll gladly pay an extra $600 every 5-6 years to get a new barrel fit and get 4 to 500 extra fps which is a massive difference in performance.
@@alexgeislinger6021 Fair, but it's rather bad design, low efficiency, expensive, loud and you only get a couple hundred fps more. Cool concept but 243 does everything it does better already with light bullets.
Seems badass I wonder how much flatter it is if it's flatter at all over a .257wby mag pushing a 80gr ttsx at 3900fps?
I have 300 prc 6.5 creed and 6 creed. Love all three. About to build a 6.5 prc. Looks like I’ve got another build coming straight up after that one now😂👍😊
Outstanding vids guys👌
22 GT gives you back some barrel life
Anyone buying a 22 creed, look at the short action customs modular dies for creedmore family. It uses a neck shoulder bushing so you can do the entire Creedmor family with one excellent die.
Love this cartridge talk you guys kill it!! Ryan is very knowledgeable and it’s awesome to learn!! Would like to see you guys talk about 6.5 prc!!
Colorado has a max caliber restriction of .23cal for small game and furbearers west of I-25/Front Range - the 22Creed sounds perfect for sitting on a hill with a nice view in Western CO callin' in some yotes. I like the Tikka and KRG idea - I've had great performance from my current Tikka action. Now....ammo availability...that might get difficult sourcing primers/brass...
Great, now I have to buy a 22 creedmore too
At 13 minutes when Ryan sees the ad pages on the floor! Absolutely funny! Whay are major rifle makers NOT giving us offerings in this cartridge???? I called Savage, Ruger and Howa. None of the folks I talked to had info. I live in Florida and don't own a Vortex hoodie. Life is hard without a 22 CM rifle and a Vortex hoodie. Keep up the great work boys!!!
When are we going to have a talk on the 7 rem mag? I think I remember Ryan saying he’s not a fan and would love to hear his take on it.
I would also like to hear your thoughts on the 224 Valkyrie. I own one. It is dynamite on a yote. That’s with a 75 Gr ELD Match.
Now that you guys have reviewed the 220 swift, 204 Ruger, and the 22 creedmoor, you need to also review the 223 WSSM
I laughed when Ryan started speaking Jim's language with a car/engine block metaphor!!
Have you done a 10 min talk on the 224 Valkyrie? That would be a good thing to discuss since it can be in both a bolt and an AR15 platform.
Hornady needs to make this round official!
I’ve heard rumors that it’s next on their list.
You can get Hornady dies for it!
Hornady needs to leave it alone. It's fine just like it is. If Hornady starts messing with it, they will most certainly screw it up. The fact that its a wildcat means that all the specs can remain nice and tight and we can have really accurate rifles and good quality Peterson brass. If Hornady gets their paws on it, you'll end up with a glorified, re-branded 22-250, and when you go to get a barrel, you won't know if you're buying a good, accurate barrel, or some piece of crap that was chambered and built to Hornady's specs.
Already available from them
I have a PRS rifle chambered in a 7 twist running a 95 gr. SMK @ 3150 FPS at sea level. Very flat shooting setup. Runs right there with all the 6mm's. You must maintain the throat to keep it heathy at those speeds and weight of bullet though. I reload using a single base Vihtavuori N165 power. Run's a little cooler.
N165 is my next plan what speeds compared to hodg 4350 or n560
@@nathanielgray4235 Although I had N560 to try and did try H4350 first. I seen to much pressure trying to achieve 3100 plus with it. N165 isn't as temp stable as H4350 but it appears to run cooler and preserve the throat and leade quit well knowing I was going to run it hard and fast. Anything over 3150-3175 with a 7 twist and the 95 SMK isn't 100% that the bullet will make it to your target. Over RPM and fly apart. I have sense slowed it down to 3100 for these hot Texas summer days if I compete with that rifle. I believe I ran N560 though QuickLoad at one time and it was a candidate.
Basically the same thing as 22-243 middlestead which uses a 243 case. Barrel life is a major concern with 22-243 22 cheetah or any of these short action 22s.
22 grendel based on the 220 russian - 6mm br - 6.5 grendel line seems to be the way to go, more reasonable velocities with good barrel life shooting the same bullets.
If you really want the speed and can deal with 1500 round barrel life, 22 creed / 22-243 middlestead seems to be the best option for a very high velocity very high bc bullet shooting a 90 grain.
I hear the 22-243 is really finicky to tune in for accuracy
i’ll stick to a .22 250 with 45 grain hollow points coming out at about 4100-4200 fps!
I like that too ... lights out with relatively inexpensive Win USA 45gr hp. BUT, I think the Barnes bullets 70gr or 77gr in the 22Creed makes it a different animal. I'm considering iot...
Hornady making it all happen. They put the big three ammo manufactuers in last place! Even Sierra is barely holding it's own.
why not use the 6mm CM for all this? how do they compare?
22cm is significantly flatter. The 6xc with a 105gr ELD will have roughly 15" more drop at 600 yds, and 1-1/4" more wind drift with a 10mph cross wind. If you have a 6cm throated to take a 115 DTAC, the DTAC drops 16-1/2" more than the 22cm, but has about 1-1/2" less wind drift. So the 22cm shoots significantly flatter, and with a 75gr VLD it splits the difference in wind drift between a 105gr ELD and a 115gr DTAC. I suspect that with heavier bullets you can get better performance in the wind than what you can get from a 115gr DTAC, but I don't know what you'd be giving up in regards to trajectory. I'm sure it would still shoot flatter than the DTAC, but not sure by how much.
223 rem has worked well for me for whitetail deer. This cartridge definitely has me interested.
I’ll keep my .22-250 for down here in TEXAS thanks!!! I can reliably drop deer, black bear, elk (yes, I dropped a cow elk with it!), and certainly pigs. My .22-250 with 60 grain Nosler Partitions is good for anything walking in North America except for the largest of the bears and musk ox. It shoots like a laser beam and drops pigs in their tracks. Almost zero recoil and AMAZING penetration capabilities. The Nosler Partition is the basest of the bad boys. Opens almost immediately and the core drives through hard.
Musk ox are the size of shetland ponies. You must’ve meant to say moose. Surely you’re not just another ignorant Texan.
Oh yea? You need that big ol' cartridge? I dropped a 500 class elk at 300yds with the good ol' 22lr
22-250 is a good round but it’s stupid and inhuman to use it for elk or bear. It will 100% wound if you hit bone or get a bad shot. There’s a reason almost everyone in Alaska uses a 308, 30-06 at minimum.
Fantastic cartridge. Hammer bullets a great hunting option!
It's a fine idea. And that's from a .220 Swift fan (my first centerfire which I got in Jr High).
.22 Creedmoor is like a Swift or Cheetah with room for VLD's. With small pocket Lapua brass, to boot. Will eat barrels faster than bigger Creedmoors, though.
And I wouldn't push it for anything bigger than a whitetail, and with very careful shot selection on them.
Before this was out there was the 22LRV (long range varmint). Its a 6xc necked to 22 cal. My brother in law built one of specs from West Texas Ordnance. Its a shooter.
There's also a straight up 22xc out there. I don't recall if Tubb is selling brass for it or not, but a 6XC die with the appropriate sizing bushing is all it takes to convert the 6xc brass. End result is a tack driving barn burner with a nice, long neck.
Same thing, its now called the 22xc
Seems like the more I watch this channel, we’ll it would not exist without the guy on the right side of the screen. He is the brain of the operation.
The guy closest to the screen tries to be a smart, but gets corrected,
The guy in the back is like the little brother or friend who just wants his opinion heard that know one takes seriously.
Anyways I’ve subbed, liked! Keep up the great content.
Would like to know more detail about this cartridge.
One of the customers from our shop had us build a lightweight custom bolt action and he's taken quite a few Aoudad and hogs at 700 yards regularly
Shout out to Marc for the “this page was intentionally left blank.” refrence.
. 222 Rem and 264 Win Mag next, please! Can't find any good videos on either of them.
''Every time..." I just built a 6.5 Creedmore, haven't shot it yet, and I want to throw it in the garbage. I'm pissed.lol
As cool as the 22 creed might be I can’t imagine it’s much different than a fast twist 22/250AI… just an observation, not being a negative nancy. I picked up a Bergara 22/250 hmr which has a 9” twist and I wonder what the different case capacity of the 3 are…
.284 Winchester next please. Spawned some interesting cartridges
I just threw a brake on my 6.5crd to try and squeeze all the accuracy I can out of it, and the new recoil impulse is exactly as Ryan describes " the rifle just shakes" 😂
I'm working on a vintage rifle with some custom stuff done to it like my 1953 Remington 721 270 Ackley. I was going to find an old Remington or Ruger in 22 250 throw on a fast twist Ackley improved barrel but now I'm thinking I completely different strategy around the 22 creedmoor
big choice to make between these two small Creedmoor for such variety of shooting. was going to revisit forty years ago and chase a krico 222, but these things have so much want.
You will get a caliber that will most likely burn out a barrel in less than 900 rounds (depending on the barrel maker) of ammo unless you get it hot shooting 300 yard F-Class etc. where you shoot 22 rounds in 20 mins. then maybe 600 rounds. It's good for Gunsmiths like me, i charge $400 for a barrel and $300 to put the barrel on. It's a win win for me. Basically the same principle as the 6.5-284 or 6.5 PRC or 22-250 Ackley or 22-243 Middlested or 22-284 and when they burn the throat it's not worth setting the barrel back becasuse it will burn the barrel way forward of the throat as well because of the amount of powder used. 6mm Creed. is already a barrel burner and a .22 Creed?. well, it's way over bore capacity and has a thirst for barrel throats. I and barrel makers will love it.
I have played with the thought of rebarreling my 22-250 when its burned out. However I've shot a 22-250 since I was a kid and is one of my favorites. I have enjoyed watching these talks and was curious if you could do one on the wssm cartridges 243 wssm, 223 wssm, 25 wssm?
That's a great idea mate
Thanks for the 10 minute talks I love your show I watch it almost everyday but I have a question I have owned a 7mm 08 and I've also on a 260 and a 243 I'm like almost every man out there I would like to own at least one of each caliber but could you do a comparison of the 260 Remington versus 243 ,7mm 08 and 6.5 creedmoor I've got my thoughts on this but I'm still learning I've learned a lot from you guys I would like to hear what you think about it
As a French precision shooter this rings a bell to my ears...
🖖🏻🇨🇵😎🇨🇵😎🇨🇵🖖🏻
Can you guys do or talk about the fine details about all things considered...for example..22 creedmoor..22 nosler ....the 24. ..the Grendel hEtc..etc..and discuss case size ...if over bore applies ...a barrel burner ...amount of rounds before barrel is cooked what problems why one manufacturer made it the way they did ...longer necks ...case capacity...if they will work in semi auto’s...over bolt actions ....up here in Canada we are limited to what we can use ...in states..the ar platform ...case life.barrel length ...longer better than a shorter
I’d love to hear things explained...why and what was the reason manufacturers went the way they did
And the reasons for there conclusion.....
Great videos and pod casts...keep up the good work
Cheers from Canada!!!
I built a 22 Creedmoor upper this summer, but haven’t shot it yet; gotta get glass, and more components to reload for it.
It's an absolutely hellacious long range varmint round too, one of my best friends has hammered coyotes at over 600yds and they drop like their strings are cut.
He likes to use 75gr ELD-M, and he's pushing them just a hair over 3400, and he's getting grenade-like expansions out to 500yds and still getting reliable expansion out to about 900 (using a ballistic calculator and adjusting velocity accordingly to test on gel)
And in a 10+lb rifle on a bipod he has zero recoil, it's almost like shooting a pellet rifle except for the noise.
Outstanding. Thank you
What episode do you review the 300 PRC? THX!
You mention how in many states there is minimum size requirements for big game. You guys should do a 10 minute talk on why that is and if it makes sense
I think Weatherby just came out with their new version of this cartridge as well not to long ago. Would be nice to compare them
A cartridge episode on the 12 gauge would be amazing
Love the talks! Keep bringin'em!
Don’t know how I haven’t found you guys but this shit is fun.
It’s the only Creedmoor Coolaid I would drink. SO FAR. Wonder how close it is to the 22TTH. I have lots of Robert’s brass I can neck down.
love these talks......can I suggest one of my favs??? how about 358Win??
I can hear the lands and groves crying from here.
I can speak from experience on 22 caliber 90gr bullets. A 140 grain 6.5 bullet and even a 200.20x out of a 308 will greatly outperform them in f-class. Especially at 1000 yds. At 600 yds the 90's can hold their own pretty good, but still are outperformed by bigger and heavier bullets. If it's calm they do good comparatively.
So the 22 Creedmoor is worthless, beyond 600 compared to 6.5 ,30 cals? I'm interested, to know. 90 .224 smk has got to go fast to catch 6 5, or 30 at a grand. If .224 90 grainer can get to 3400 it might, jackets blow up easy that fast though. I'd say your right
I would absolutely love hearing you guys speak about the 7mm STW and the 7x57
60, 64 and 69 grain for predator hunting.
60 grain Ballistic Tip
64 grain TGK
69 grain SBK
Just asked for this yesterday haha. Love it
I would love to have a 22 Creedmoor out here in the West for long range varmint/predator hunting. Coyotes to mountain lions.
I’m looking hard at this caliber. What’s the barrel life expectancy
The trouble you will find is that as you head into the longer heavier, high BC bullets, you rapidly run out of sturdy enough bullets to penetrate very much before they expand. Generally, the bullet manufacturers just don’t see enough of a market for heavy 22-caliber hunting bullets.
I have a friend who hunts deer with a 22-250. he is an excellent shot who owns several hay fields. He has fixed blinds to set up in, and aims for the eye on a front quartering shot. The animal dies instantly.
Not yet available as a component the 69gr Sierra blitz king shows promise, hoping to see Berger release a high BC varmint bullet similar to those 6mm offering
The 69 grain SBK is THE varmint/predator hunting bullet for the 22 Creedmoor. We pulled bullets and used it on rockchucks, with amazing results.
Minus ELR, does it do anything 243Win doesn't? We are talking similar bullet weights, and case capacity
I was hoping they would compare it too .243 specifically. Based on the weights and numbers they were throwing out there it sounds like it might have more velocity in a 90 grain bullet than .243.
If they are neck and neck then they don’t do the most important thing better than .243 for a lot of people. Commercial ammo selection.
Also the 90gr 224 bullet has suck a higher B.C. over the 90gr 243 bullet. Kind of hard to compare I think. That bullet must cut the wind like a hot knife through butter
Would have loved to hear some comparison with the 22 Nosler. I believe both rounds were developed for potentially the same usage.
While I always like variety & choices, even in bone stock 6.5 Creedmoor you can get major-brand factory ammo between 95-147 grains (Hornady, Winchester, Barnes).
Long distance if the wind is calm and your just shooting steel and paper. Sounds totally wicked on the long distant prairie shot.
I would get the 22-250 AI first
Barrel life is the only draw back at 1000 rds if shooting PRS, for a regular hunter, looking like 1500 rounds. Deer, antelope, coyote gun, that has great BC performance. My friend dropped his antelope with my gun at 350 yards with an 88 eldm. I ran it out to 1265 on steel, and it was out performing the 25 cm! I built mine for stubborn coyotes that hang up at 400 yards and out.
I know its old and out of date but I recently bought a ruger m77 in 7x57 and don’t know a bunch about it. 10min talk would be awesome!
Me too, I always want whatever you talk about.
You could use the 22 creed in Utah on elk, we only have a center fire cartridge requirement.