More Torque than a Ferrari?! Verge hubless electric motorbike
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- Опубліковано 4 тра 2022
- Our resident man of action, Andy Torbet, takes a test ride on a potentially revolutionary new electric motorcycle: the Verge TS. With its groundbreaking design, which discards the conventional chain drive and essentially turns the entire back wheel into a motor, the Verge is capable of both eye-watering performance and staggering efficiency. Could this be the future of two-wheeled transport?
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#electricmotorbike #verge #vergeelectric #vergebikes #vergets #fullychargedlive #amsterdam - Авто та транспорт
I'd love to see what the process of changing the rear tire would look like.
If I had to guess, and I’m definitely not an expert, I’d say that you can just screw off the bolts, disconnect the wires and then remove the tire from the motor, shouldn’t actually be too much of a hassle I think.
This has me curious. As well as how much they made the rim fit conventional tyres or if it's a custom designed affair.
As well as the integrity and what was done to mitigate the forces involved in hitting a pothole at speed.
They should focus on these matters since not mentioning it just leads me to believe in it being the weakness in what is an aesthetically pleasing design.
@@sepro5135 The interviewee says it takes 5 minutes to change the tire in the video. Cant be too complicated.
@@Pimpemans potholes Defo a worry.
That was my first thought when he introduced the rear wheel concept
Reminds me of that Tron film back in the early 80s - the future is here! Yep it has been mentioned in this video I know, but that'll teach me to comment too early! :)
Not really, hubless wheels have existed for decades now and have always been a gimmick, including this
@@Jeppelelle Hardly a gimmick, you cannot get any more direct drive than this.
Syd Mead would be proud
@@electroplank587 It exited for long time, nobody used it, because it's not idea for anything, not in racing, not in long distance transportation, not in rail road, it's not rigid enough to hold the circle shape, too much rolling resistance, and yes there's more direct drive than this.🥰🥰🥰
@@electroplank587 I don't think you know what you're talking about, why don't you let your 6 months old ( please provide video that prove she explaining ) explain to me, if not nobody will believe you 🥰🥰🥰, and yes, there's more direct drive than this.
Since when are Ferrari’s known for their torque?
Your friends must really like you.
😂😂😂😂@@matthewbridges1438
Truly a well designed bike. Love the low center of gravity and minimizing moving parts. Looks awesome too. Definitely a head turner, not because of the noise but the lack of. Well done people.
It would be interesting how the unsprung mass of the rear wheel assembly compares to a conventional set-up. Convention indicates that a reduction in mass improves handling and ride.
Just what I was questioning as well.
Really isn't hugely relevant for road riding. Two key points; it's the ratio of sprung to unsprung mass that's the important part (& the factor that usually gets missed); and considering the swingarm etc as part of unsprung mass, it's likely to be equal to or less than something like a BMW Paralever (I did work it out once).
A 2002 generation GSXR 1000 has about 45lb of unsprung rear weight. My first thought was that this would be much heavier. But without the axle and center hub, there was some definitive weight savings. I'd like to pull the rear shock and set the tire assembly with swing arm attached to the bike on a scale.
I suppose we will have to wait for an unbiased review once they get into the wild?
I can see gyroscoping being an issue - surely? 🧐
Never thought about being able to get rid of the chain and the rest of that bollocks, which is pretty cool. I've never been into motorbikes and never really wanted one, but I might actually consider an electric one, if I can find one cheap enough. Someone rode past the other day on an electric motorbike, and it might sound obvious, but when he passed by almost silently, it was ten times cooler than the noisy smeggers that normally irritate everyone in the village. I'd love to ride through the countryside in virtual silence, I think it would be heavenly.
Yes! Can you imagine riding through the countryside on a quiet Sunday morning as the sun is coming up? Heavenly indeed...
Agreed!
"if I can find one cheap enough"
Good luck. As of now they are incredibly expensive, just like E cars.
"I'd love to ride through the countryside in virtual silence, I think it would be heavenly."
The truth is that, depending on your speed, as a rider you don't necessarily hear the noise from the engine. It's the wind noise. But at slower speeds it would be quite nice.
I'm actually worried about motorists not seeing you coming.
Saying that I ride a bike in London so what's the difference.
Kinda really want one, just shit scared of driving a motorbike in London 😅
@@tmarritt
"Kinda really want one, just shit scared of driving a motorbike in London"
Yeah. I've had several motorcycles. The fact that they are silent isn't really going to make a difference. People don't tend to hear motorcycles unless they are insanely loud. And even then, you're right, there isn't the same level of awareness.
I don't have a bike now, but would love to have one for tooling around. Prices, though, aren't great. For me it wouldn't be worth it.
Wow, congratulations for the people of the Verge... it looks fabulous with that crazy engineering in the back wheel !
Fantastic innovative engineering... Right off the bat to come up with a winner in version 1 as it were... Wow! Excellent.
This was quite impressive. And the bike was *beautiful*. I really liked how the wiring was done - the curves remind me of the exhaust lines on a petrol engine bike. Verge has hit a jackpot.
I wonder what the retail price will be :D
Wait what? They make them in my country? This gets curiouser and curiouser :D
...I did think that license plate style looked familiar :D
I think it's supposed to be around 25,000 euros.
@@jannepeltonen2036, You didn't know that Verge is the only motorcycle manufacturer in Finland. I was myself working with that when we build the first prototype (the company was called as an RMK then).
@@jannepeltonen2036 please tell me it's not supposed to be pronounced the way they do in the video! It means something nobody wants to talk about in my country...
I would have liked this a lot more if 1. You'd shown us the bike pieces (suspension, steering, braking system up front, the mirrors, storage compartment) more carefully. 2. You'd told us how it makes you feel - How responsive, how it feels at top speed, seat comfort, head and tail lights, data readout, etc, etc.
maybe a roll race vs an mt 10
I'm impressed. Well done to the engineers to simplify it so.
This is the first bike (motor or electric bicycle) video I've enjoyed. What a brilliant piece of design and innovation. I hope it's a huge success!
Wow, this is fantastic! Finally a proper ground up electric motorcycle! This definitely needs some LED lighting for that Tron look. 😃
Damn I didn't think of it, now that I read this comment I can see how practical it can become. It will be lit af for us 90s kids! :D
YESSS!!!!! The future has arrived! :D Thank you so much, Fully Charged Show and Verge!
This is remarkable. Beautiful design. Job well done.
WOW! By far the coolest E vehicle I’ve ever seen.
That is several orders of magnitude cooler than any of the Harley Davidson my 14 year old self used to dream about.
Nice to see Andy again it's been a minute. Hope everyone had fun at FCL, wish I'd been able to make it
What a beautiful futuristic design! Thank you for sharing! 🔌⚡🏍️
Wow 1 moving part! Other than fork seals, breaking system, tyres and bulbs looks like no other servicing required ! And such a good looking bike too. Love living in the future. This should be big hit :)
9:33 Love the reaction from the family. Genuine surprise and not annoyance of a loud CE motorcycle ruining their pleasant walk.
It was staged.
I imagine the person filming was on a CE motorcycle tho
Annoyance? I always love the sound. And when I drive through villages, all kids want me to rev it up.
What you call annoyance is sweet music to us great heads 😂
Impressive, I love it. Using electric power as the beginning tech has produced a stellar product.
Brilliant VERGE! Looking forward to the opportunity to see them here in Canada
I've seen concepts from 2012 with hubless wheels and electric motors intergrated inside hubless. The easy way to understand hubless wheels is if you get a ball bearing, weld a swingarm to the center of the ballbearing rim put a tire on the outer rim of the ballbearing and there you go you've got your own hubless wheel.
I still wonder how much of a challenge does the hubless wheel add to changing rear tire. Other than that it look so delicious. 😋😁 It definitely is an engineering wonder. 🤘🏼👍🏼
He says in the video it takes under 5 mins to change a tire
@@eomhS He said "wheel." Really not specific if he meant removing/installing the metal wheel with tire, or swapping out the rubber wheel.
And how it manages puddle of water
@@anshulbhardwaj4038 he said it was impermeable
@@lemongavine how impermeable monsoon impermeable I doubt because even Tesla has not launched its cars in such climate.
I like the idea and in time, these could be made more compact and lightweight enough to be a reasonable replacement for the old chain and sprocket design, although I do wonder about the cost of replacing one if you dink it on a pothole or something!
Also, as it's all contained in the wheel you could have powered front wheels as well. Imagine a 2WD adventure bike with that power!
sorry just seen this after I wrote mine.
Something tells me that if you could break it by dinking it on a pothole, they wouldn't have put it into production 😜. Cost of replacement is a big factor though. I did initially wonder about how you would get it serviced and whether the lack of standard components would make repair more expensive or very difficult. Could easily end up with a situation where only Verge can repair it.
In most hub designs the rim can be unbolted from the motor. I ride a hub motor motorcycle and I'm not worried about it at all.
@@marsrover001 Good to know. It's something I'd consider buying as long as I felt confident that I could rely on parts being widely available so that repairs are feasible and cost-effective.
We have toyed around with 2wd ect, but to keep the TS as pure as possible we chose to stick to a simple front end set up. As @WiSkify said, we've done our testing to make sure a simple pothole will not stop our motorcycles.
What I'm missing is your opinion on handling and suspension, and a general riding comfort comparison to e-bikes with tradition drive trains. The advantages seem to be better power efficiency, even less/easier maintenance and a bigger battery.
Seems to also be performance, efficiency, reliability / simplicity, handling, and so on. That said, I suspect that rear wheel also significantly increases unsprung mass, which is generally a bad thing, so in terms of handling it may be a case of 'difference' rather than 'better'.
Bigger battery means it will weigh more than goldwing for a bike that is supposed to be sporty. It will effect handling. Also you are moving the main drive to the rear instead of the middle so that will most likey have weird effect on handling as well.
@@corail53 The TS weighs 248kg and will be lower on official release. The Centre of gravity is so low, it makes manoeuvrability very easy.
A few things...
1) The colour code...
The flex cables really stand out as a feature & flow into the body of the bike... The white body panels parts should be matched to the orange flex cables providing continuity & vibrancy...
2) The sound...
An audible, futuristic, fluctuating high/low electric pitch matching power delivery would really set this apart & also increase safety for all road users...
Brilliant venture!
This episode has definitely made me consider electric bikes more! I have always been someone who loves the sound and feel of motorbikes so electric was something I was almost afraid of because it takes my love motorbikes out. Watching this show has shown me first a very aesthetically pleasing electric bike and that it has some incredible stats and is making me consider one!! I just don’t know if I’m ready yet but we shall see!
Interesting design, I like the minimalist approach unlike other motorcycles where they are adding more systems and items all the time.
I have been riding for 45 years and was a Mechanic for most of those years one of my first thoughts was wheel changes dealing with those orange cables which as a Mechanic whom has worked around EV's knows that means Danger and to be careful working around them.
Changing the wheel in five minutes not bad, good thing too, I can see tire changes will be a frequent item seeing how much torque this thing puts out you know burnouts will be a thing. 😆
I like the idea of no chain, filters or other maintenance items to deal with.
€25k price not bad, here in the USA at the Harley Dealer I was looking at the new Nightster and with markups and fees its $20k USD.
I rode Harleys for many years, I go look at them won't be buying one. I more interested in the newer Electric bikes coming out.
I did look at the Livewire but its short range its not enough for me and my insurance is 3k a year to get one, I'll wait until the costs become more reasonable.
I can hear some people complaining its heavy, yes compared to ICE super bikes that have had decades of development and big factories doing the R&D and bringing them to production, but its an interesting time its wide open for independents and creatives to try new things.
LOL seeing that hubless wheel I thought of a custom bike built by Billy Lane years ago he has a similar looking wheel setup.
The idea has been around for awhile, interesting to see it used in a Electric Motorcycle.
The three big orange cables at the wheel are not a big danger at all if the bike, specifically the motor controller, is turned off. The dangerous cables are the pair going from the battery to the motor controller. These will be kept as short and secure as possible.
@@grejen711
I also hope the bike has something like a bank angle sensor to shut off the controller in case of an accident.
I have worked around high voltage systems and know the precautions to take and what not to touch.
I just found it interesting to see those orange cables out in the open usually they are carefully routed and kept out of sight if possible.
I've been a beemer rider since the '90s and have been waiting for an electric equivalent to the BMW RT - so weight isn't a big issue for me ;-)
The only riding I've done over the past decade or so has been the couple long road trips/year on my regular schedule - one from San Francisco to Southern California and one to the Pacific Northwest - and that's only because our intercity passenger rail system sucks.
What's I've been waiting for is a full fairing with adjustable windscreen, capacious bags (side bags, topcase and tank bag and some built-in compartments would be nice too), 250-300 miles range at a spirited highway cruising speed and/or canyon-carving, and 30-60 minute charge time (and a Denny's or equivalent that incorporates charging into its parking so I can feed the bike and myself simultaneously).
IMHO the 2007 model - the last one I owned before I decided to go with rentals - had a good ratio of useful tech : cruft. The later models which I rented in '17 and '18 & the one I bought in '19 (RIP) had _way_ too much technocruft, particularly the overstuffed menu that required a scroll wheel to go through just to get the two or three pieces of info you really want to have in front of you at all times, that I found dangerously distracting.
And honestly I don't _want_ their nav and entertainment options, and resent the dash and menu space being taken up for them. What I want is somewhere to snap my mobile into, that will plug the power and antennae into the vehicle for charging & signal boosting, respectively, so I can use the nav and music options I've already got set up to my preferences.
Can somebody help me?
@@dwc1964 do you realize a touring motorcycle has hardly less drag at spirited highway speed than a full size sedan with .20 drag coefficient like model s/MB EQS/lucid air. you don't want to be adding almost 1000lbs of batteries to your GT electric motorcycle, so you'll have to wait for a while before battery tech allows this kind of range. even next gen solid state batteries won't provide this kind of energy density.
your only hope with current battery tech is an fully enclosed fairing two wheeler
Tron coming to life
I bought the 'chainless' Soco ..Bosch motor, supposed to be 50cc equivalent but delivers 40 mph, lots of fun, 50p to do 30-40 miles. The issue is lack of streamlining so that is the battery killer ..not the motor.. not weight..simply pushing the sail that is your body through the air
Exactly, this is why motor bikes are inefficient, ducking down whilst riding add more mpg and mph.
Imagine the efficiencies that could be gained if aerodynamics were properly sorted, but this would mean encapsulating the rider taking away some of the Joy's of riding.
@@FlyingFun. My bike EV has a purpose..it is the eco run around that goes on the back of my camper.. for trips into the hills, to save fuel, to venture into cities.
30 mile range is fine.
Bike makers have to be clear on what the bike is for.. the do everything of a modern ICE bike is not really an option.
This super bike really needed super fast charging as standard & a 150 mile range
@@julesdingle I have converted some pushbikes to electric they do 30mph, range is dependant on pedalling but easily 30 to 60 miles.
It really is plenty for all the local chores and having fun exploring.
Biggest issue is security, too many theives about..
yeah I'm on a soco too, the tc max so it's not a hub motor but instead has a belt drive. Still lovely to not have a chain to oil or rattling away. Biggest thing for me commuting daily is it's so smooth - no vibrations may be a bad thing when riding for short periods for pleasure but as a commuter experience it's so much more restful having a smooth bike.
The air resistance is substantial though as you say - no streamlining and a very upright position, a fairing would be nice :D still spanks any tesla in efficiency round town though.
I'd love a bigger bike, but at the moment there is such a huge price jump between what I'm on and the faster bikes.
@@asharak84 I would be tempted to convert a classic , buy the biggest hub motor and squeeze as many batteries into the frame
Nice innovation of a permanent mag layout on outer rim and 👌 in bike wheel and coils in stationary guided positions around center rim love the design on permanent magnet motor ....
The design and engineering is absolutly brilliant. Can't wait to see this is action.
What a spectacular bit of kit. Along with many others, was boggling at it last weekend in Farnborough, so this is fascinating stuff. And yet again, FC find us another brilliantly innovative genius to explain all. Great video as ever.
Fascinating indeed! Did they let people take this bike for a spin at Farnborough?
I'm going to FC Live in Amsterdam and would love to try this thing 😄
@@EdwinOtten oooh - good question. Not sure! But the point Andy made about noise in the video was such a good one. Standing by the track watching all test drives was fascinating. Silence! A reimagining of what cities could be like. Have a great time at the show in Amsterdam!
@@shhhyouknowhoo3753 I will definitely go and watch, thanks!!
@@EdwinOtten bring your gear and your licence to the show. Get there early to book a time.
Interesting concept.
Fascinating that some of the selling points seem to be it's doesn't vibrate, smell of oil or make any sound. For an old duffer like me those are things that I like about bikes 😄
Heyho, can't stand in the way of progress. Good luck to Verve. I hope they're successful.
I don't really call this progress (ev's aren't solving any enviromental issues) Silence and no vibration just mean boring and lifeless. I have driven in EV cars and have been a huge RC guy my entire life - and while they have instant torque and are fast (credit due there) they somehow made that incredibly boring and sterile.
@@corail53 of course they are helping environmental issues - yes, ok the grid needs to move more than it’s current 30% renewables; but already no local particulate or gas pollution is a very big plus.
Thats nostalgia. Take a new generation. Raise them on EVs and then have them drive a vehicle with an engine. My bet is most will not like it. Just wait and see.
Hmm. I gather you've never watched planet of the humans?
Awesome bike and always top notch production.
Keep the bike stuff up, loving it!
Would love to see a custom bike building competition built around the hub less system.
Custom bikes are already very popular and you might be able to get into that market this way as well as get some advertising for the cost of a few motors.
If you can find Biker Build Off episode on you tube with Billy May he builds a hubless rear wheel. I looked at making one about 14 years ago when I ran a custom bike parts business, but getting a bearing was the hard part, they were basically helicopter rotor blade bearings.
It would look amazing to take 4 of those wheel assemblies and custom build a car using them. You could have the front and rear wheels tilt in opposite directions to steer. Low speed turns could be handled by turning the left and right sides in opposite directions or at different rates. Electric, in wheel motors give you so many options for amazing designs.
Have a poke about online for hub motor vehicle designs. The custom AMK brand hub motors used by certain Formula Student teams are worth a look, for example.
Make the wheels huge and you have the racing game GRIP.
@@wayland7150 The whole point of using this particular design would be the motorcycle wheels, which are designed to steer by tilting. Regular tires aren't meant to ride along the side of the tread for turning like these are.
@@hellcat1988 I know why you do that on a bike but why in a car?
@@wayland7150 One, I think it would be a fun and interesting car. 2, it could possibly be a more efficient setup for lighter class vehicles. 3, to see if it CAN be done in a functional and cost effective way.
Awesome! The tunes are great too :) Thanks :)
Congratulations! Brilliantly designed Electric Bike!
I’m not a biker but this caught my eye and can’t help but think it’s a super impressive feat of engineering and really stands out against regular bikes. Well done! But I wonder how quickly will the rear wheel structure fill with road grime and gunk, and how trouble free that will be in the long run. Also, aesthetically I’d prefer to have both wheels in same style, not one open and the other with spokes. Still, good job coming up with an original design and making it work.
I think they should have hidden those ugly orange power cables better. And the price is a bit to much.
@@JayDee-xj9lu It's matter of preference. I personally really dig that they left the phase wiring like that. So cool.
I was thinking the same. Cleaning and maintenance just the rear wheel would be hell.
This concept with hubless bikes have already been tried out in the late 80ies, by Sbarro. The biggest problems is that the bearings dont like these constructions from what I have understood.
@@JayDee-xj9lu yes accidents happen slide on that side and pinching those baby’s on what ever
After a Brammo and two Zeros I definitely want a Verge. I just ordered one
Hoffentlich nicht passend in grün🤭.
@@ministeriumfurstartsicherh9895 wird sie gar nicht angeboten
Welcome to the Verge MC family!
I am self teaching myself about Electric Motorcycle builds and this design is beautifully done. I would to visit and learn how to build a bike like is. Never knew there was a thing like a "hub-less electric motor."
Very cool but, it would never replace my primary internal combustion bike. I love the sounds, the vibrations, the shifting, and yes, even the wrenching.
This is a very nice concept and definitely the future for road going bikes if it turns out to be really reliable over time. The whole back wheel setup needs to mature of course. Motors are getting lighter and materials are getting better - and cheaper as well. So, that should go well. I wonder which of the big OEMs is gonna bring a similar bike to market first.
It's kind of sad...
I mean, the sound is a big part of experiencing a motorcycle. Everything is becoming boring. They take the fun out of cars and motorcycles by electrifying them...
Also battery technology is changing very rapidly, which potentially means more miles/kw and more power for the same weight /size battery.
@@professormoriarty6875 The fun is still there. Sound is only an addition, but most of the enjoyment in a motorcycle are going to be related to how it rides.
@@professormoriarty6875 yeah but this is not completely silent ..and the work will blow you away !!!! deff enough for me to buy electric !!!
This is the way to do an electric motorcycle, ground up design, just like Tesla did. Designed and developed in Finland 🇫🇮💪 btw.
Soon to be Russian tech.
Great to see the Cotswolds! The bike looks great!
Not sure how Andy manages to look super awesome whatever he does but that’s very enjoyable to watch. 👌🤩
I really like this bike. Good looking, interesting tech, wonder if we'll see a comparison to the Zero and Livewire bikes.
Mr. Torbet's review is a nice start. I believe a more in depth review is needed, including maneuverability tests (set up by fully charged and not by the manufacturer) and a servicing demo including changing the rear tire.
As more and more people get their hands on our motorcycles, these videos will be coming
Very nice man, love it!
Love it. Maybe they could get in touch with Sila, new battery tech by the end of this year, crunched the numbers and their battery tech equates to 460W/Kg. Even the best Li Ion is 260W/Kg. I'd also like to see how the tyre is changed. Great vid for a great bike, cheers 👏👏
One disadvantage that in-hub motors have in general is that they have to absorb all of the road shock directly, whereas if the motor (gas or electric) is centrally located that shock can be largely mitigated between the wheels and the engine via various shock absorbers and linkages. I worry about this fact with the Aptera too. Every pothole is felt _directly_ by the wheel and its hub motor.
I suppose it is comparable to one very large bearing and the stress that would come under - you may well have a point, though I do wonder whether an effective bearing of that size relative to the mass of the bike would probably have a longer life than the bike itself - I wouldn't have thought it was too difficult to give it the necessary longevity - though if cheap copies come out, that would be a different matter, ^oo^
I hope it's worth the weight.
@@bernardthedisappointedowl6938 Its not the bearing that's the worry.. The windings are of thin wires only insulated from each other with varnish. What will impacts and vibration induced internal rubbing do in the long term? Also an unmodified manual tyre changer will be of no use in changing the rear tyre
@@xtc2v That's a very good thought - I guess it in part depends on the design of the motor, normally the wire windings are fixed and the magnets move - though as you say, they would still come under stress and may cause problems - Often in high vibration settings the windings are immersed in resin as well to set them solid to help with that potential problem - a solution commonly used in small wind turbines - again - resin has its problems too - not least weight, but it might alleviate some of the inter-wire stresses, ^oo^
@@bernardthedisappointedowl6938 Its not a resin in industrial applications its a varnish. A resin once set would be impossible to take for a rewind if it developed a short.
I am pretty split on the hubless motor thing, It being hubless and the novel swing arm attachment point will reduce the gyro effect to almost nothing at the rear wheel.
But having the entire (very heavy) motor as unsprung mass is very concerning about its stability on even slightly rough roads.
you still have the front wheel and the invisible rotating parts inside the rear one
Or if all the magnets are in the rim the Gyro effect is bigger than if they were in the centre?
But it looks cool
Good point
The point of the unsprung mass is very fundamental. Its a negative in my opinion. Elon musk has talked about it as well in the Tesla context
Wow! I wish I was 30 years younger. I'd be chomping at the bit for one of those. Thanks for the excellent reveal, Andy! 🙂👍
??? How old are you 95?
I love it! Absolutely amazing 👏
What a great looking bike. 1000Nm of instant torque must require some amazing traction control!
they are cheating by quoting wheel torque instead of motor torque which is what is normally quoted for determining performance. i would estimate motor torque to be somewhere between 140-200ish nm of torque at the motor, which is still quite a bit but not as misleading at the 1000nm figure
@@tindy128011 Isn't engine torque the cheating one? Because it doesn't account for drive train losses.
@@tindy128011 Knew there must have been some miss quote. Can you imaging a genuine 1000Nm of torque on a twist grip and single tyre 😳
@@KungfooBucket Comparing it to a conventional powertrain's torque at the crankshaft is unfair, yes
The chain and gearbox multiplies the torque on a conventional bike, so the wheel torque number isn’t that big compared to 1st gear.
Lots of cleverness here. I always enjoy a different approach. They need to all be explored to find the better fit for purpose solutions right now. For electric vehicles. Because many of our existing design instincts are still informed by ICE constraints. I don't think many people realise how very different the future can be. I saw an electric skateboard with tank treads the other day that speed over almost any terrain. Climb stairs, etc.
And this really comes across as fairly quiet if I'm hearing right around 8:50. Real quiet. Which is amazing to me.
The existing design instincts are automotive constraints and constraints from the fact you still need axles, still need steering, all the stuff that makes up a vehicle regardless of drivetrain. We aren't magically going to get rid of that stuff because it is an EV. That Tank tread skateboard you are talking about is using tech that is over a hunderd years old in EV and tread design. Nothing innovative in it. It is just taking what is old and putting on things that don't need it for the sake of what.
@@corail53 You are being disingenuous. I'm not talking about the underlying technology of transportation. I'm not talking about wheels and axles, treads, etc.
I'm talking about the vehicle form factors enabled by more compact drivetrains which require less auxiliary mechanisms to function. Less design constraints from the driving train. Less moving parts. No exhaust. No oil. No water cooling. No combustion timing. Flat power curves which make gearing optional. Etc. Etc. Etc.
You can't get an internal combustion engine to do what was done with this bike. It's practically impossible. And it's an extremely efficient design for a wheel which even extends the range of the bike. Maybe that's what has you in a tizz... New technology that makes EVs even more viable... This exact design need not even be limited to motorbikes. An EV car could most likely get better range with something like this. And the car itself could be massively less complex for it.
You can't create a practical tank treaded skateboard with an internal combustion engine drivetrain. You probably could make something that will sort of work, but it would not be a good product. Then look at water craft - We've already seen electric designs with small but sufficiently powerful electric motors built into the waterfoil. Making even waterfoil surfboards possible. No need for fuel lines and a large, complex engine nor exhaust. Just power lines down to compact motors. Already small VTOL aircraft are in the works, nearing market readiness that are designed to serve as flying taxis as affordable as an Uber. You cannot do that with internal combustion engines.
This is what I'm talking about. Where drivetrains are concerned electric motors make internal combustion engines look like dated steam power technology. Opening up a wide range of design options, and even types of vehicles that were just not available before.
For what you ask? Is this now fatalism hour? Go search for that tank tread skateboard. Watch the videos. That is a mean, lean personal transportation device that can go many places, over a wide range of obstacles, that will appeal to many people.
Looks quite nice and no doubt that wheel is a conversation starter!
Superb innovation - I hope they are successful
What's the process of changing the rear tire. I imagine with all that torque and weight is going to result in a fair amount of tire wear. And then I'm guessing that huge metal ring on the right of the bike is the brake disk?. I mean from a weight and a cost perspective this certainly isn't ideal but damn it looks cool.
EV bikes tend to have a horrible power to weight ratio. I wonder how the COG is with the main drive being in the back the video claims a lot of stuff but all the rolling shots were the rider going slow.
@@corail53 COG is super low as the battery and the motor are the heaviest and lowest parts of the motorcycle. as for changing the tire @nicoschurr, it takes no longer than 5 minutes. It is removed like a HGV tyre.
Wow! I'm all teased up to see how the Heck they solve the bearings challenge.
Make sure your suppliers can give you the right product, easy 💪. The model in this video has been through all out dyno testing and real-world testing and still hasn't needed a bearing change.
Wow! Just Wow! I gave up riding a while back (years ago) and seeing this I want to start all over again riding electric.........
That looks cool i would definitely buy 1 , i just wonder if there's any maintenance and the other thing that crossed my mind is if the rear tire gets a flat is it easy to replace that tire with the tires they sell at a motorcycle shop or is it a specific tire it has to have for that rear hub
Very interesting take on the EV bike lads top work. Love seeing development in this sector.
I'd like to know how heavy that rear wheel/motor is - must be an awful lot of unsprung weight!
But just look where the center of gravity is for that weight. You can't get much lower than that!
@@alexfunk2047 if you're talking about the body then yeah, the CoG is pretty low, but I'm wondering why they didn't just go with a traditional motor that would sit in the middle of the wheel. There will be less inertia for accelerating and braking if the mass is concentrated towards the center instead of towards the edge of the wheel.
@@alexfunk2047 True. I would love to ride it to discover how it feels, especially in corners.
@@yummyhershey5902 The mass is concentrated in the centre, that's how centres of mass works. It doesn't matter if the wheel is hollow or filled, as long as the weight distribution is the same around the whole wheel, then the centre of mass will be in the middle of the empty area. The part that connects the wheel to the bike is only there to keep the wheel in place and acts as something for the wheel-motor to push against, thus moving the bike forward.
@@TextiX887 "center of mass" is nothing but the mean position of matter. The mass being concentrated towards the outside or center of the wheel won't change the center of mass, but it can still affect the inertia of a rotating object. For example, ice skaters bringing their arms closer to their center of mass makes them spin faster. Having the mass concentrated towards the center of the wheel will make it require less force to accelerate/decelerate to a certain speed.
need this in the us would be amazing to see this on the road
Very very good presentation
Fantastic concept and impressive engineering! I really hope you have all of your IP, patents etc in order because everyone of your competitors will want to copy this concept. I can see the whole motorcycle industry going in this direction for e-bikes! How can small private investors invest in your company? I'd be interested to put some money down and I bet lots more people would too. I think you have a winner! Good work Verge!
Right? If they have the necessary patents in place they needn't lift a finger... just let the license fees roll in
Really nice Episode guys, I saw this bike at Fully Charged live, is the Crewekerne I spying you riding through? Would have been nice to have more of a review / Rider experience and feedback from you, if it has that much torque what was it like to ride compared to other electric bikes, did it feel like it wanted to wheelie everywhere , how did it feel flip flopping around the corners? Was it comparable to a BMW boxer engine with the weight low down etc.???
It looks like a concept vehicle rather than commercial final with question mark about the riding experience specifically the "Geometric" seat and the hand bar. Goodluck and sell well!
A beautiful bike, and the tech on the rear end is really intriguing. Disappointing that everything front of that is very conventional... switching to a swingarm front end would not only bring significant handling improvements (less dive, lower COG, minimal changes trail/wheelbase due to suspension travel, less dive, etc), but would also allow for a more flexibility in the design of everything in between.
I've driven an e-scooter since 2019 and I love it with the exception that it kills chains and gears quite easily. This is a great solution. My only question is, why didn't you make an electric center stand.. I think having the front wheel also be hubless would look great
To have a hubless wheel is a massive weight, and only makes sense if you are designing it around a motor. The front wheel only needs to be a normal rolling wheel. And if you made it 2WD so you had that as a powered motor too.... you are introducing a whole new wave of problems that simply aren't worth the time and hassle.
As a car-nerd, I have to say that this was the first motorbike I really felt like wanting to try - Also - would the wheel design work on small sports cars, similar to an Ariel or Caterham? That would be interesting yo see and drive!
A similar wheel design is being used on a car in California. Called an Aptera
As a former car guy, get a motorcycle. I will never own another car again.
if all 4 wheels were this magnetic bearing type, I don't see why it wouldn't work for every car, every size
@@TheMythicalAce 100%
ew gross, imagine being addicted to motorized wheelchairs
This is incredible! Even as someone who never cared about motorcycles, I find myself wanting to drive this marvel of engineering everyday! 😳🤍💥
Bikes have always been attractive, it's just that small issue of road safety. 😁
cars you drive, bikes you ride ...:)
Was skeptical but DAMN it is beautiful. No chain and sprocket, incredible. Good on you fellas
Two wheel drive is easily possible with this design. Go full TRON on this! I know there are 2WD ICE bikes out there, but this simplifies it drastically given no need for mechanical connection. The three flexible power cables are all that’s needed, and they could be run very neatly into the crown and down one side of the forks.
And get front end re-gen braking !
Would look pretty cool with a front swinging arm, like the Arc Vector or the Bimota Tesi. Arc reckon that they have improved the handling of these designs with their iteration.
Wonder how much is the unsprung weight of the back wheel?
There's a difference between a hubless wheel, and one with a huge hollow axle. This is the latter, which is why it might work reasonably well. True hubless wheels are goofy junk with all kinds of disadvantages but no advantages.
I agree! They should not call this "hubless" because it isn't and it would be worse if it was. Great engineering with questionable marketing.
What is a hubless wheel then, I don't understand the difference. Does it just mean there's no center?
I think for marketing terms and the layman alike, “hubless wheel” is sufficiently accurate because it has no conventional hub.
Wow wow wow!! What a nice bike! I really need it! 👍
That's genuinely fantastic 🏍
Love the tech put into this bike, I just need an explanation on braking the setup on the rear
? The braking system is using the old Buell outer ring style of brake - works just like any other disk brake. It most likely has a regen system in it as well. There is also no new tech in this bike - it is just run of the mill EV stuff.
you would use regenerative braking most of the time
The rear brake disk is custom from Galfer Brakes. It is a requirement of the homologation process to have a manual brake. But as FSXgta suggests, you won't need it as the reiterative breaking is customisable and very efficient.
This is actually the first electric motorcycle that I actually fancy a go on.
magnificient... simply bloody brilliant!
A hubless setup is prime for 2wd application. It would be a game changer in motorcycle off-roading.
One moving part - amazing
Striking bike and really interesting video. I was at FCL and was really impressed by the bikes and scooters I saw. It would be good to get a review of how the bike handles. How does it compare to ICE bikes; weight, handling, suspension, acceleration. 1000Nm just sounds like it would flip you over. Presumably it has anti-wheelie, traction control etc....?
Yes, this is a good point. I think all that torque probably isn't necessary, as the traction control willl be endlessly cutting power to stop you ending up in a hedge. I own a Zero SR/F and it has 140 ft-lb (190 Nm) which means my TC is endlessly saving me from cartwheeling down the road :D - this Verge has almost 5 times the torque.. that's a huge difference and I'm not sure it'll ever be able to put that amount of power down on the road.
Would still love to try it though!
@@SpottedCreeper It's only got one gear so no opportunity to multiply torque like a geared bike has. With the right electronics it should be able to wheelie like a unicycle.
One of the problem area of a standard motorcycle is the fact that since the drive sprocket and the swingarm pivot are not coaxial, there must be slack in the chain to allow for rear wheel travel. This is a source of component wear and introduces forces for which the suspension must compensate. It would be interesting to hear if the bike had anti-squat and anti dive built into the design. With the amount of energy being recaptured by regen, it could be an interesting ride if the rear braking overwhelms the front brakes!
this is exciting, absolutely love it
Stunning and amazing. Just this one example of EV innovation proves to me that things like rear axles, diffs, prop shafts, chains, gearboxes, water pumps, radiators, carburettors, fuel injectors, petrol tanks, exhaust systems etc etc will all be just stories told by grandparents by the time the current infants finish school and get their first “car” ….
You still need water pumps (batteries can be liquid cooled because they get hot under load), gears, diffs, axles in EV's plus you need miles of cables an inverter (also usually liquid cooled). You still need bearings, axles, suspension, tires, wheels, plastics - lots of plastic) It is almost like you know nothing about cars but think an EV is some magical hover craft.
@@corail53 watch this particular video again, (a little more carefully this time) and then check you comments again buddy.
@@philtucker1224 Sorry phil but corail is completely correct and you are wrong.
Interesting - would like to know more about how it felt to ride. e.g. "Stable" is not usually a massive compliment for a motorcycle - one might want to know how it corners, what the acceleration feels like, etc.
I'm waiting for my eMotorbike :) Keep up the good work and One love from West Pacific Canada, Sincerely DJ Lyndon from SUMOLab1.
Very interesting design. Love the 3 cables feeding the motor. Kinda replaces the chain idea. I see this going places.
so you mean like every single other motor of this type and the vast majority in existence?
comment screams "i dont know shit about motors durrr"
@@Blox117 I'm a lifelong electrician, so kindly take your durr and stick it.. Thanks.
@@thetravellingpicker5096 LOL even more embarrassing! by like 100x!
careful not to shock yourself while sticking your tongue on power lines LMAO
@@Blox117 What are you, 12?
it's going to be a bitch and a half to change the tire on this thing. Not to mention it has a ton of un-sprung weight that won't be damped by suspension.
They said right in the video that they could do it in 5 minutes, I'd probably want to see that demonstrated but I believe that they've made it possible.
Also when it comes to unsprung weight you have to think of it as a ratio to the rest of the mass. The battery and the rider are the really heavy parts and they are above the springs, that motor probably doesn't weigh that much.
If they're to be believed, 10:55 (can change it in 5 minutes). Whether _anyone_ can with minimal training is to be seen, I think...
an interesting technology review but little on the way that it rides. I wonder if it is still being finalised in terms of feel? The lack of any acceleration figures (which should be astonishing given the power and torque available) suggests you might have been asked to skirt around some areas?
We aren't skirting around anything. We advertise the 0-60 as under 4 seconds so that potential riders don't feel it is too fast, becasue the TS can be ridden however you wish. Some of our team have flirted with 3 seconds flat, some haven't. So under 4 seconds is an honest representation.
@@vergemotorcycles how difficult is replacing the rear tire? With accel numbers like that, i'd assume you'd wear them out quick.
@@vergemotorcycles surely you can get way under 3s?
2017 honda fireblade does 0-60 in 3.0 and costs around 11k. MPG around 40-45. Lets say you ride 6k miles a year (most people don’t) thats 133 gallons of fuel per year at $5/gal = $670/yr fuel costs, oil change once a year $50, chain cleaning and wax around $20 entire year. So for around 12k I get a bike thats waaaay faster, lighter, better engineered, and its reliable and easy to work on. Plus you can take the cash you saved on not buying the obsolete electric scooter and you can buy a second bike or car, invest the money, etc.
Am I missing something here?
Oh and it sounds like a fucking F1 car as you shoot past the scooter that has no where to fuel up on long rides in the mountains…. 😎
@@hondafanboy1856 Yea you are missing the fact that this is a different type of machine. No where in the video did anyone say it was a 1:1 replacement for the standard motorcycle. It is type of tech that has not been used in this way much at all, whereas gas motorcycles have been standard for over 100years. Straw manning the bike into calling it an electric scooter is weak. I’ve yet to see an electric scooter hit anywhere near those speeds or have anywhere near that range much less have that electromagnetic motor on the wheel. You can keep your Honda, which is a fine machine, and still appreciate the work that went into something else.
Beautiful! Innovative indeed.
Okay, that thing is really dope. Look at Verge out here raising the bar on electric motorbikes. Very impressive design with the lower center mass and that innovative hubless rear wheel power-train. So cool. I wonder what the retail price for one of these bad-ass bikes will be.
It looks like a very imp[ressive piece of engineering but it sounds as though there is a tremendous amount of unsprung weight in that real wheel. I wonder how that affects the handling and road holding.
That's a really good point I didn't consider
In addition to the handling penalty I wonder if the extra amount of jostling on the motor will effect anything.
That is why a good ebike don't use hub motor rear wheel. Bad unsprung weight and balance of handling.
@@MarkBlance True. I can't see any benefit of this set-up over a standard hub motor, which has all the benefits of the hubless design but with the same downside of unsprung weight.
@@kl9518 Plus the benefit of multiplying the torque at the rear wheel through the bike's gears.
I see two problems - changing the tire on a rim which is the motor sounds delicate … and having everything in the rear wheel means there is a lot unsprung mass…
The battery is sprung, which will counteract any wheel flung you might worry about.
@@aby0ni you can’t counteract unsprung weight!
@@SkysaxonDragonslayer
You just need some mass to press the tire on the road, to counteract its inertia.
@@aby0ni 😂😂😂😂😂
@@aby0ni that's not how it works..
Very nice!! The headlight area reminds me of the 'Mother' robot from 'I am mother' a very good film. 👍
Great looking bike!