Mark it's important not to slat other installers for sure. You don't know the history or if any other person has come in since them . Remember no one is 100%. it's just good to see what you are doing and this video shows us how you consider safety first.
Honestly I never understood peoples almost obsession with using attics to mount equipment that wants servicing and maintenance. I've lost count of the amount of customers in recent years that have asked us to remove equipment such as boilers/water heaters and invertors from the attic and refit them somewhere else in the property. In the end you have to fit it where people are willing or able to allow space for equipment but we've never put forward or advised people to do it. Also I second that more people need to get thoroughly stuck in before commenting, I know a fair amount about our industry but no where near what I want to know due to being split between multiple roles and trades. As such I have decided to spin off from my partners with a couple of the employees so we can focus on electrics and renewables. Also that Schneider EV install went brilliantly though there were delays getting 4 pole mcb/rcbo combo's so many thanks for your advice with that one!
Most people don’t have an attached garage to fit stuff in so the loft might be their only option. I watched a YT video and the homeowner had batteries and all the equipment fitted in a downstairs toilet.
Hey Mark - as you say - clearance around the Gen 3 is 250mm all around the inverter, what about on the left? and the meter is obscured... tricky space sure...
Another reason to avoid the loft is possible is that the electronics will probably not last as long if exposed to very high temperatures. I would love to know what your opinions are regarding cold temperatures with outside installations and what Give Energy reckon because generally Li doesn't like charging at very low temperatures although discharging at very low temperatures are not a problem. Victron software will not allow Li to charge at below 5C.
My PV installer uses email address for user name and gave every customer the same PW so they can remotely monitor their customer's installs Mark,thankfully I've not had a problem in the 12 month's since my Array was installed 🙏
Hi Mark, I have one of these to do. the battery cable from the inverter has a utp connection. which connections on the upt plug are used for the battery comms?
Am looking to install a Solar PV, but indoor space limited, so is an outside battery and inverter enclosed in a wooden (and possibly insulated) cabinet an alternative?
Hi Mark. Love the videos. Can you tell me what size mcb you used in this installation and why it was not rcd protected. Was the modbus on an mcb. Thanking you
Modbus has to be on a 6A circuit as was the case here mate. Inverter on a C40 mcb. GivEnergy gen 3 inverters don't require RCD protection unless the supply cable route/type dictates otherwise. Thanks
Problem with loft battery/inverter location is mostly the temperature in summer, it may reach well over 40c in summer, which will throttle performance of inverted as well as the battery. Also, if loft is not insulated, and there is no cell heater inside the battery it will also throttle below zero. Generally if you're worried about fire safety, never install batteries inside of the building. Also, not sure what Givenergy recommendation, but generally it is not a good practice to implement DC circuit breaker on a battery path, if fact you should minimise amount of connection on low voltage high amp paths.
As described in the video the DC mcb is dictated by GivEnergy. In fact it's an essential requirement on all battery/inverter links aside from battery modules with the DC MCBs built in. I've covered my views in fire safety in an earlier video. The global stats on loft locations are clear.
@@electrician247 Could you please point at regulation regarding "essential requirement on all battery/inverter links aside from battery modules with the DC MCBs built in".
@paulf3353 Can you point at any regulation regarding anyrhing 🤣. It's all guidance outside of EWR1989 and such. That said the requirement is detailed in MCS 3012 I believe and most importantly in most battery manufacturers instructions that do not directly incorporate a DC mcb. Certainly the case for GivEnergy, ICS, and older solax options. My understanding is they base that decision on stored energy above 3kWh which when you think about it makes sense at 50-120V range. As discussed in the video GivEnergy take it so seriously they will not allow commissioning of the inverter /battery without a picture of the DC mcb terminals and use of the ferrules evidenced. As you say the terminals increase risk so they are trying to ensure attention to detail is paid I guess! Also as discussed next time we will share a give gen 3 inverter and giv gen 2 battery with built in mcb and direct connection on the cables Hope that helps 🙏
@@electrician247 I'm serious, could you please point at specific page where I can find it is required, because I'm struggling to find requirement of external DC isolator. It may make sense to have an external isolator if you have a huge array of batteries you want to isolate at once, but for one battery it is absolutely not required in fact it is more harmful than useful. Even in Givenergy manual I've just check they have multiple batteries on schematics with isolator. Every standalone solar battery has some sort of isolation built in, otherwise you'd have live terminals all the time even before commissioning.
@@paulf3353 I am really not here to do your research for you but have at it. kb.givenergy.cloud/article.php?id=82&oid=1 Very clear in the GivEnergy knowledge base. You are wrong and thats okay. Hope it helps.
Hi Mark, I have a GivEnergy new setup with 19 panels, 2 x 5.2kwh batteries and inverter isolarboost etc. I wanted to add a third battery, how involved is that and roughly what cost would you say is reasonable to pay installer for a third added battery / supply of it etc?
Just a quick one if anyone can answer regarding bonding. I replaced an old 6mm main earth for water mains. While doing a board change. This enters property at bolier room at the center of the house. This now has a new 10mm bond. All good. Until I just discovered the plumbers piped in copper under a concrete floor to the kitchen sink. 2 meters away. The 2 copper pipes under the sink seem to be linked with what looks like a 4mm cable. Is this satisfactory or do you need to bring a 10 mm to this location as it pipes come up from the concrete again.
Hi mate, If it has picked up an earth potential in the ground AND is possibly separated from the other copper pipe work by a plastic insert or length of pipe it will require bonding in its own right. That will need to be sized same as normal which will most likely result in 10mm. Hope that helps.
So is there a limitation with resistance to earth or how is it classified with certain reading after already bonding at the main stop tap. Appreciate your feedback. Ask 10 electricians and you get so many different opinions.
@ciaranhughes8705 anything extraneous will measure under 22k ohms. If it deffo goes outside the exponential zone and is deffo copper in the ground you would expect a very very low value. If its got a plastic bit somewhere along the route it will most likely be a high value. If the value is low enough for you to be happy it's continous copper and doesn't import a new potential you could accept its effectively bonded. But personally speaking and this isn't really to do with regs I would bond it regardless as it leaves the ground.
@roser16v best check your model and with Giv directly but my understanding is gen 3 hybrids have output protection on current and voltage via varistors etc.
Hi Mark, I've only just learnt that the zero rate VAT on battery installation only applies when it's done as part of a new solar installation. We're in the same sort of scenario as this customer was in - We already have a standard solar installation and need to replace the inverter with a hybrid model and add a battery. Do you know if the replacement of the inverter itself is enough for VAT purposes to count as a solar installation or did this customer have to pay the full 20% VAT rate on this job? I'm really struggling to understand exactly what is and isn't allowed as this revelation has really messed up the funding for our battery project - Our installer's VAT specialist is saying that it wouldn't be covered but I'm really hoping you might know of some way to make the installation eligible seems as you've just done a project like this. (Even if we have to lose our FIT and count it all as new, that would still be worthwhile to us)
I'm afraid VAT would be due. Although government currently have review on removing VAT for batteries! Have you though abut just adding an AC coupled battery and additional inverter or looked at the giv energy all in one ac coupled system? Might be an option
@@electrician247 Thanks Mark, I didn't realise it was still under review I thought dropping batteries from 5% to 0% (With the solar installation requirement) was the only thing but it's good to know that it might change - I get confused as they keep changing the rules every few months! We did consider a separate AC setup but it would be nice to have it all as one so that we can get some proper stats from it. (The current installation is in a barn so no fire risk issues and plenty of physical space) I'll have a look at the GivEnergy setup but ultimately it comes down to the price of the batteries themselves as they all tend to be in the same ballpark from when I last looked but I'll check again. We'd budgeted based on not having to pay VAT but we might just need to reduce the amount of storage or wait to see what happens with the review. I feel for you as installers too, how are you meant to advise customers when the rules keep changing? Anyway I appreciate your time, cheers Mark.
Hi Mark, that meter looks like a re-branded Eastron SDM120CT. SolaX said they don't support them but they did say you can use the Chint DDSU666-CT with SolaX Hybrid inverters instead - Useful for when you need a very long CT cable as it uses RS485 instead. (The manual used to say 25 meters max for a CT, but the latest version says 100 meters) I was wondering about the MCB for this sort of meter, looks like you've used a 6A for it - It's a shame that they don't have a built-in fuse or something like that to save a space. Did you need to do anything regarding a FIT tariff with the inverter capacity change? Or was there not one for the existing installation? Just regarding the battery circuit breaker, doesn't it have be a metal enclosure? I would have expected it to count as switchgear.
Not sure on the rebrand. Possibly! The original install is only a few months old believe it or not lol. So all good with fit/seg. We did consider metal enclosure but ultimately trying to avoid conductive parts around the DC cabling and connections. It makes sense to me anyway.
@@electrician247 I wouldn't have guessed that it was such a new install, surprised that the customers have decided to go for a battery so soon after installation - It backs up your suggestion in previous videos to always plan ahead for batteries at a later date. Your justification on the enclosure makes perfectly logical sense to me too. Fortunately the newer batteries appear to include them which makes life simpler!
@andrewyoung9748 this customer played it smart tbh as they was unsure if they would export anything with careful usage. It's a relatively small array. But having punched the numbers went for an upgrade. We have the Givenergy gen 2 battery next and that has a built in MCB. Showing the whole range of options right up to the 13.5kW all in one.
@andrewyoung9748 you're right this looks identical to the Easton SDM120CTM (M for modbus over rs485, CT for....CT rather that wire-through) just with a slightly different part number
Can you explain why the unit costs £5800 but people quote £11 to £12k to install them? This is a rip off racket. These batteries are pointless at those costs. Maybe £7k but still pays back 7 years is long time for a unit with only 10 to 12 year life
Another ridiculous comment. If its so easy to install them for £7k why not get yourself MCS registered, insured, tooled up, hies/recc approved and give it a go? Its fine if you can't afford one, other options are available. I've got a cheaper system in my own home. You are forgetting all the cable costs, isolators, labour, travel etc etc. Also the units delivered are generally 6k delivered including the VAT. A trunking, cabling and isolation setup can't be anything up to another £1000 or so depending on runs. MCS notification and HIES insurance add a few hundred more. Admin for dno notification, site team for a day or 2. £9000 + VAT easily validated. Strange mindset to believe a market place is out to rip you off. Shop around. Do the maths. It's a 12 year warranty. Most payback are inside 7 years. Faster if you are prepared to put the effort in load shifting and use enough electricity. If you are a small consumer payback will take longer. But imagine this 7 years from now when you would have long since bought, consumed and lost imported electricity. Its still sat there reducing your bills and that's totally forgetting the value of going off gris, load balancing, surge protection and all the features you seem to have no value over. Make sense? If not can't help you.
Absolutely ridiculous comment. Clearly no idea on fire safety in a home. The board has 2 purposes... 1. To help prevent fires originating away from the battery reaching it. 2. If the battery goes up to help allow as much time as possible for occupants to escape. Basics.
@@electrician247 you clearly have no idea about lithium fires at all stick to being a sparky because this is clearly not your strong point. What that fire board is the equivalent of using an umbrella as a back up for sky diving. Once lithium reaches thermal runaway not even submerging the battery in water can stop it. So putting a board on the back is safety psychology than practical safety
@mattx4253 we are not trying to stop the fire or contain it. Clearly above your head. Which is fine. If your happy to mount a battery on timber wall and allow a fire starting elsewhere to easily reach the battery. Thank heavens your not an installer. Much bigger picture and I'm not just a sparky. Not that their is anything wrong with that. I do court reports for fire investigations. Next question?
@mattx4253 a concrete board won't stop fire for a few extra minutes for occupants to exit a building? Sorry what is your qualification to suggest that? For those who might read this afterwards. We can then update MCS to adjust their requirements as well. Let me know 👇 If its expert on the Internet then we can take 0.01% value on your input.
Mark it's important not to slat other installers for sure. You don't know the history or if any other person has come in since them . Remember no one is 100%. it's just good to see what you are doing and this video shows us how you consider safety first.
Totally agree and I am careful to always keep that in mind
Honestly I never understood peoples almost obsession with using attics to mount equipment that wants servicing and maintenance. I've lost count of the amount of customers in recent years that have asked us to remove equipment such as boilers/water heaters and invertors from the attic and refit them somewhere else in the property. In the end you have to fit it where people are willing or able to allow space for equipment but we've never put forward or advised people to do it.
Also I second that more people need to get thoroughly stuck in before commenting, I know a fair amount about our industry but no where near what I want to know due to being split between multiple roles and trades. As such I have decided to spin off from my partners with a couple of the employees so we can focus on electrics and renewables.
Also that Schneider EV install went brilliantly though there were delays getting 4 pole mcb/rcbo combo's so many thanks for your advice with that one!
Wholeheartedly agree mate and glad to hear it went well
Most people don’t have an attached garage to fit stuff in so the loft might be their only option.
I watched a YT video and the homeowner had batteries and all the equipment fitted in a downstairs
toilet.
Hey Mark - as you say - clearance around the Gen 3 is 250mm all around the inverter, what about on the left? and the meter is obscured... tricky space sure...
Has more than the correct space all round. Meter is what it is. Can still be read and we also have the meter in the CU now. More than happy with it.
Another reason to avoid the loft is possible is that the electronics will probably not last as long if exposed to very high temperatures. I would love to know what your opinions are regarding cold temperatures with outside installations and what Give Energy reckon because generally Li doesn't like charging at very low temperatures although discharging at very low temperatures are not a problem. Victron software will not allow Li to charge at below 5C.
Sometimes it's the only way. But last resort for for me is any environments that have extreme temp swings
My PV installer uses email address for user name and gave every customer the same PW so they can remotely monitor their customer's installs Mark,thankfully I've not had a problem in the 12 month's since my Array was installed 🙏
Hi Mark, I have one of these to do. the battery cable from the inverter has a utp connection. which connections on the upt plug are used for the battery comms?
Am looking to install a Solar PV, but indoor space limited, so is an outside battery and inverter enclosed in a wooden (and possibly insulated) cabinet an alternative?
Yes for sure.
Hi Mark. Love the videos. Can you tell me what size mcb you used in this installation and why it was not rcd protected. Was the modbus on an mcb. Thanking you
Modbus has to be on a 6A circuit as was the case here mate. Inverter on a C40 mcb. GivEnergy gen 3 inverters don't require RCD protection unless the supply cable route/type dictates otherwise. Thanks
Problem with loft battery/inverter location is mostly the temperature in summer, it may reach well over 40c in summer, which will throttle performance of inverted as well as the battery. Also, if loft is not insulated, and there is no cell heater inside the battery it will also throttle below zero.
Generally if you're worried about fire safety, never install batteries inside of the building.
Also, not sure what Givenergy recommendation, but generally it is not a good practice to implement DC circuit breaker on a battery path, if fact you should minimise amount of connection on low voltage high amp paths.
As described in the video the DC mcb is dictated by GivEnergy. In fact it's an essential requirement on all battery/inverter links aside from battery modules with the DC MCBs built in.
I've covered my views in fire safety in an earlier video. The global stats on loft locations are clear.
@@electrician247 Could you please point at regulation regarding "essential requirement on all battery/inverter links aside from battery modules with the DC MCBs built in".
@paulf3353 Can you point at any regulation regarding anyrhing 🤣. It's all guidance outside of EWR1989 and such.
That said the requirement is detailed in MCS 3012 I believe and most importantly in most battery manufacturers instructions that do not directly incorporate a DC mcb. Certainly the case for GivEnergy, ICS, and older solax options. My understanding is they base that decision on stored energy above 3kWh which when you think about it makes sense at 50-120V range.
As discussed in the video GivEnergy take it so seriously they will not allow commissioning of the inverter /battery without a picture of the DC mcb terminals and use of the ferrules evidenced. As you say the terminals increase risk so they are trying to ensure attention to detail is paid I guess!
Also as discussed next time we will share a give gen 3 inverter and giv gen 2 battery with built in mcb and direct connection on the cables
Hope that helps 🙏
@@electrician247 I'm serious, could you please point at specific page where I can find it is required, because I'm struggling to find requirement of external DC isolator.
It may make sense to have an external isolator if you have a huge array of batteries you want to isolate at once, but for one battery it is absolutely not required in fact it is more harmful than useful. Even in Givenergy manual I've just check they have multiple batteries on schematics with isolator. Every standalone solar battery has some sort of isolation built in, otherwise you'd have live terminals all the time even before commissioning.
@@paulf3353 I am really not here to do your research for you but have at it. kb.givenergy.cloud/article.php?id=82&oid=1 Very clear in the GivEnergy knowledge base. You are wrong and thats okay. Hope it helps.
Hi Mark, I have a GivEnergy new setup with 19 panels, 2 x 5.2kwh batteries and inverter isolarboost etc. I wanted to add a third battery, how involved is that and roughly what cost would you say is reasonable to pay installer for a third added battery / supply of it etc?
You might be best looking at the larger 9.5kWh battery modules. Costs vary depending on ease of installation
16amp fuse for the heat pump? Seems low!
Not our install but seems to work fine
Just a quick one if anyone can answer regarding bonding. I replaced an old 6mm main earth for water mains. While doing a board change. This enters property at bolier room at the center of the house. This now has a new 10mm bond. All good.
Until I just discovered the plumbers piped in copper under a concrete floor to the kitchen sink. 2 meters away. The 2 copper pipes under the sink seem to be linked with what looks like a 4mm cable. Is this satisfactory or do you need to bring a 10 mm to this location as it pipes come up from the concrete again.
Hi mate, If it has picked up an earth potential in the ground AND is possibly separated from the other copper pipe work by a plastic insert or length of pipe it will require bonding in its own right. That will need to be sized same as normal which will most likely result in 10mm. Hope that helps.
So is there a limitation with resistance to earth or how is it classified with certain reading after already bonding at the main stop tap. Appreciate your feedback.
Ask 10 electricians and you get so many different opinions.
@ciaranhughes8705 anything extraneous will measure under 22k ohms. If it deffo goes outside the exponential zone and is deffo copper in the ground you would expect a very very low value. If its got a plastic bit somewhere along the route it will most likely be a high value.
If the value is low enough for you to be happy it's continous copper and doesn't import a new potential you could accept its effectively bonded. But personally speaking and this isn't really to do with regs I would bond it regardless as it leaves the ground.
Hi Mark, We are looking at using Givenergy. Do you install SPD on DC side?
We do but they do also have DC spd in so don't have to.
@@electrician247 Givenergy has DC surge built in? I was told they don’t?
@roser16v best check your model and with Giv directly but my understanding is gen 3 hybrids have output protection on current and voltage via varistors etc.
@@electrician247 great thank you.
@@electrician247 have email Givenergy and all I get is “we recommend all installations comply with the regulations”
Useless!
Hi Mark,
I've only just learnt that the zero rate VAT on battery installation only applies when it's done as part of a new solar installation. We're in the same sort of scenario as this customer was in - We already have a standard solar installation and need to replace the inverter with a hybrid model and add a battery. Do you know if the replacement of the inverter itself is enough for VAT purposes to count as a solar installation or did this customer have to pay the full 20% VAT rate on this job?
I'm really struggling to understand exactly what is and isn't allowed as this revelation has really messed up the funding for our battery project - Our installer's VAT specialist is saying that it wouldn't be covered but I'm really hoping you might know of some way to make the installation eligible seems as you've just done a project like this. (Even if we have to lose our FIT and count it all as new, that would still be worthwhile to us)
I'm afraid VAT would be due. Although government currently have review on removing VAT for batteries!
Have you though abut just adding an AC coupled battery and additional inverter or looked at the giv energy all in one ac coupled system? Might be an option
@@electrician247 Thanks Mark, I didn't realise it was still under review I thought dropping batteries from 5% to 0% (With the solar installation requirement) was the only thing but it's good to know that it might change - I get confused as they keep changing the rules every few months!
We did consider a separate AC setup but it would be nice to have it all as one so that we can get some proper stats from it. (The current installation is in a barn so no fire risk issues and plenty of physical space) I'll have a look at the GivEnergy setup but ultimately it comes down to the price of the batteries themselves as they all tend to be in the same ballpark from when I last looked but I'll check again. We'd budgeted based on not having to pay VAT but we might just need to reduce the amount of storage or wait to see what happens with the review.
I feel for you as installers too, how are you meant to advise customers when the rules keep changing?
Anyway I appreciate your time, cheers Mark.
@andrewyoung9748 no problem and you are right it's a minefield!
Hi Mark, that meter looks like a re-branded Eastron SDM120CT. SolaX said they don't support them but they did say you can use the Chint DDSU666-CT with SolaX Hybrid inverters instead - Useful for when you need a very long CT cable as it uses RS485 instead. (The manual used to say 25 meters max for a CT, but the latest version says 100 meters)
I was wondering about the MCB for this sort of meter, looks like you've used a 6A for it - It's a shame that they don't have a built-in fuse or something like that to save a space.
Did you need to do anything regarding a FIT tariff with the inverter capacity change? Or was there not one for the existing installation?
Just regarding the battery circuit breaker, doesn't it have be a metal enclosure? I would have expected it to count as switchgear.
Not sure on the rebrand. Possibly!
The original install is only a few months old believe it or not lol. So all good with fit/seg.
We did consider metal enclosure but ultimately trying to avoid conductive parts around the DC cabling and connections. It makes sense to me anyway.
@@electrician247 I wouldn't have guessed that it was such a new install, surprised that the customers have decided to go for a battery so soon after installation - It backs up your suggestion in previous videos to always plan ahead for batteries at a later date.
Your justification on the enclosure makes perfectly logical sense to me too. Fortunately the newer batteries appear to include them which makes life simpler!
@andrewyoung9748 this customer played it smart tbh as they was unsure if they would export anything with careful usage. It's a relatively small array. But having punched the numbers went for an upgrade.
We have the Givenergy gen 2 battery next and that has a built in MCB. Showing the whole range of options right up to the 13.5kW all in one.
@andrewyoung9748 you're right this looks identical to the Easton SDM120CTM (M for modbus over rs485, CT for....CT rather that wire-through) just with a slightly different part number
👍
Great install, did you need to do a G99 application to go to the 5KW inverter?
Yes mate
SHED UPPLY. 😂
Can't beat some fat thumbs 👌
Can you explain why the unit costs £5800 but people quote £11 to £12k to install them? This is a rip off racket. These batteries are pointless at those costs. Maybe £7k but still pays back 7 years is long time for a unit with only 10 to 12 year life
Another ridiculous comment. If its so easy to install them for £7k why not get yourself MCS registered, insured, tooled up, hies/recc approved and give it a go?
Its fine if you can't afford one, other options are available. I've got a cheaper system in my own home.
You are forgetting all the cable costs, isolators, labour, travel etc etc.
Also the units delivered are generally 6k delivered including the VAT. A trunking, cabling and isolation setup can't be anything up to another £1000 or so depending on runs.
MCS notification and HIES insurance add a few hundred more. Admin for dno notification, site team for a day or 2. £9000 + VAT easily validated.
Strange mindset to believe a market place is out to rip you off. Shop around. Do the maths.
It's a 12 year warranty. Most payback are inside 7 years. Faster if you are prepared to put the effort in load shifting and use enough electricity.
If you are a small consumer payback will take longer.
But imagine this 7 years from now when you would have long since bought, consumed and lost imported electricity. Its still sat there reducing your bills and that's totally forgetting the value of going off gris, load balancing, surge protection and all the features you seem to have no value over.
Make sense?
If not can't help you.
That fire board is a waste of time. If that battery goes up in flames that board will do nothing.
Absolutely ridiculous comment. Clearly no idea on fire safety in a home. The board has 2 purposes... 1. To help prevent fires originating away from the battery reaching it. 2. If the battery goes up to help allow as much time as possible for occupants to escape. Basics.
@@electrician247 you clearly have no idea about lithium fires at all stick to being a sparky because this is clearly not your strong point. What that fire board is the equivalent of using an umbrella as a back up for sky diving. Once lithium reaches thermal runaway not even submerging the battery in water can stop it. So putting a board on the back is safety psychology than practical safety
@mattx4253 we are not trying to stop the fire or contain it. Clearly above your head. Which is fine. If your happy to mount a battery on timber wall and allow a fire starting elsewhere to easily reach the battery. Thank heavens your not an installer. Much bigger picture and I'm not just a sparky. Not that their is anything wrong with that. I do court reports for fire investigations.
Next question?
@@electrician247 as I said it’s an umbrella for sky diving. Won’t do anything. Makes zero difference. Seat belts on an aeroplane
@mattx4253 a concrete board won't stop fire for a few extra minutes for occupants to exit a building?
Sorry what is your qualification to suggest that? For those who might read this afterwards. We can then update MCS to adjust their requirements as well.
Let me know 👇
If its expert on the Internet then we can take 0.01% value on your input.