NOTE: Today I finally tried to figure out why I was experiencing so much clipping on my Virus TI. The problem was that I threw the Master Volume to almost maximum - because there is a high frequency hum that goes through Output 1. This meant that I could turn the gain down on the mixer and that sound would go away, only to find that internal clipping with reverb would occur. Turning the Master volume to 9 o'clock fixed this issue for me. I don't hear any clipping. Which is good - because I remember my TI sounded so good before, and now it sounds good again.
Does your described clipping, occurred by max. master volume on the TI, affect your comparison in any way? Btw: Which synth of the two would you personally prefer regarding the sound.
@@riorattenrudel3907 I bet the Ti. But if you're budget minded, and the B is significantly cheaper, I don't know, haven't looked at the used market for these synths in a decade, but if money is a REAL issue, I'd say the B is fine. I bought the B new back in 2000, and have never liked the sound. Wish I sold it immediately and got about a grand back for it, now it is just half that... But I'm trying to make peace with the B.... But if you're just looking for an analog sounding polysynth, there are now brand new actual analog chef's kiss sounding polysynths... and they are affordable! Even! Take for example Behringer's just released but not yet delivered to distributors/consumers Pro-800. Which is what, $400? THAT IS CRAZY! AN 8 voice analog osc polysynth... for less than a thousand... less than half of a thousand... TAKE MY MONEY (that I don't have, if I did I'd load my minty Virus B into a cannon and shoot it into space). The thing about the Virus synths, in general, is the freaking sound design capabilities, they're immense, endless. They are like a hugely modular digital polysynth, so many aspects of a sound can be modulated/affected in some way. There are novel sound design combinations/patches to last a lifetime, seriously. The thing is, to my ears, maybe it is my B, but to my ears, the B's basic sound engine is crap, so you can do all this crazy bellz and whistlez sound design stuff, but what is gonna come out the outputs... shiz... hashy digital noise from all the high frequency oscillations, and not just from the oscs, there's all kinds of audio rate modulations that can go all over, but all that hits the filter, which tends to be very digital sounding, and you get blankets of nyquist noise, sounds like, but worse, than just white noise over everything. It causes everything to sound digitally blurry. Like if you play a four note chord, and you've done some weirdness with the sound design, and I'm not using any of the digital distortion/saturation capabilities anywhere, but in the oscs, or the filters, you'll get this blanket of nyquist noise, and you won't be able to hear each individual note within the chord. And more caveats, I know how to gain stage irl, and within the Virus, I'm not driving anything to hard at all, nothing anywhere near clipping, it's just the really bright digital waveform oscs hitting nyquist, but it sounds like, to me, that the Virus B runs at 10khz, not 44.1 or 88.2khz, which I'd prefer, I think, I think you'd avoid all the very audible digital noise caused by frequencies going up to and beyond the Virus B's internal processing frequency. Literally last night I was working with the Virus B again, as the day before I replaced one of the virus b's blown power capacitors (they all go, I think there may be a design flaw in the powersupply section of the synth's circuit, but also, I think in the late 90's, there was a global supply issue with bad quality capacitors, like they all were manufactured bad, had really short lifespans... I've even had a similar cap go bad killing a device in my late 2000's Acura suv, something that has happened to all of these vehicles, and I bet the mexican subcontractor that built the boards for this unit was still using that old bad capacitor stock, probably because they were dead cheap, which allowed the company to bid the project a dollar lower per unit than the next cheapest competitor, so they got the contract to build a pretty important unit that ended up causing serious problems in all of these vehicles... I mean the cap I pulled off the B's board was made in Japan, and a higher temp rated cap, rated at 105 Celsius, it should be good quality, but it slowly started going bad maybe 4 years ago, and died and killed the B a couple years ago, it's been dead since, somehow collecting dust, even under a cover, which I just don't understand!) But I realized I had a circuit board lying around with the appropriate value (25v 100uF... the original was brown and rated for 105 Celsius, a higher, more costly rating, but I used a 25v 100uF rated at 85 Celsius) caps on it that I could scavenge to replace the blown cap on the Virus. Really easy fix, even for me, who only has two hands, and crappy ones at that. But really easy to get the old cap out and the new (newer, it also was fairly old) cap in. Without overheating the cap, other components on the double sided board, accidentally pulling the pads or traces) Whamo blamo, the Virus booted no problem, sounds as mediocre as it ever did! But what I was trying to say about the Virus sound before I so rudely interupted myself, is that I was working with the Virus B yesterday, a stringy/flutey sort of chill padish chordal patch, and I was working with a Moog Grandmother, Behri Crave, and even a Korg Volca Bass, all three of those being analog oscs and filters... and no matter what I did, the Virus B always sounded back, farther away, while the true analog devices sounded up front, really present and clear, even when filtered down. I removed all the onboard fx on the Virus, thinking maybe the chorus, reverb at one time, delay at another, even phaser, I was thinking they were causing a bluring that was pushing the Virus back. But it wasn't the fx... The Virus can put out a pretty hot signal, hot enough to clip my converters, so it wasn't volume, the Virus was louder than the other analog synths, but it still sounded more distant, less audibly distinct. And that is the thing I've always felt about this synth, from the day it arrived from Germany, I've always been disappointed with the sound, but could never really put my ear on it. That's why my 22/3 year old B is minty, because I haven't used it that much over those two decades. Promethean quest, they tried too hard, put too many features into the synth, so much so, they exceeded the digital chips/tech that were available at the time... so while it is truly a whiz bang synth capable of so much, what actually renders out as audio is blurry, hashy, indistinct. I really, really wish they focused their design efforts on the core sound of the unit, and held that as their design objective, rather than making an uber synth that did it all. Like if you listen to a single digital osc making a saw wave, with the filters completely open on the Virus, versus a lowly Volca Bass, lowly Behri Crave, or the mighty Moog Gma, the difference is night and day. The Virus saw is not nearly as buzzy, not nearly as sharp. It sounds like it is filtered down a bit, but I don't think it is, per se, I think it is higher harmonics just getting lost in the engine, or hitting nyquist and turning into digital hash... The virus cannot do a simple saw or square wave, I mean, that is basement level stuff for a virtual or actually analog synth. If you can't make an unfiltered saw sound buzzy and sharp, it doesn't matter how you subtly modulate the cutoff spread between the two filters... But still... I'm going to continue to work with the B, try again to get something useful out of it. My synthesis capabilities have continued to level up over the past few years, I really understand all the menu options now.... even if I can't find where I set the basis note for filter cutoff keyfollowing. I've been through every menu twice and I can't find it again! Which is my actual final point... yeah, the Virus B is a knobby interface, but really, almost all of the sound design capabilities are in menus, and the menus are just linear progressions of features, not hierarchical at all, so what I just figured out, because I now have one, the Virus B is basically a bad sounding version of an Alpha Juno... same user interface, really. Just one long linear scroll through sound design capabilities. I wish Roland, or Access for that matter, payed attention to Ensoniq's UI design capabilities, as ASM Hydrasynth has, that is a very fast, very easy to use heirarchical user interface. To prove I'm not just a digital hater, analog purist, I'm seriously desiring the Hydrasynth keyboard version, which itself is a do it all uber synth, incorporating all the long desired features of synthesists over the last 50 years, but the Hydrasynth designers at ASM are actually smart so designed an excellent UI that is instantly navigable, so it has all the features, and you can instantly access all of the features, rather than clicking, clicking, clicking through thirty pages of parameters on the Alpha Juno or the Virus... That's way more than I inteded to write. My apologies, hope this has helped. Don't take my opinion as gospel. I think the Virus tends to do Eurodance/Trance type sounds well, like that is its strongsuit, but I hate that shiz, so maybe I'm biased. I just wanted a good sounding (virtual) analog synth, and that is not what I got! For $1,100 dollars of 2000 dollar value, that's over $4 grand today... I coulda gotten a brand new OBI!
According to the manufacturer, the later models can do anything the previous ones can and more. One major difference has been the EQ starting with the C. The TI/TI2 - as the name "total integration" suggests - is made for use in a DAW via the USB-port and I have to say it works quite well. Since, I'm working with a hardware-only setup, it's not such an important feature for me currently, but who knows. The TI2 is an amazing, complete synth that outsynths pretty much anything I've owned before. Obviously, it's not analog but it get very close because of the awesome filters.
Yeah, I don’t use the TI aspect of mine either, and I’m not sure it works with Mac anymore, maybe it still works on windows? The virus is my favorite synth ever, fyi :)
@@MIDERA I tried the VST in Ableton Live 11 and it works. You can only load one plugin instance (which makes sense given the fact that the sound is generated within the one piece of hardware). There is another good integration plugin from Mystery Island which even works with the earlier versions of the Virus. I think it uses Sysex code to communicate with the synth in real time. They also make plugins for other older synths like the Korg MS2000.
5:38 The TI has 4 harmonic peaks with very little harmonic content between the peaks, but on the B the content in between the 4 big peaks are much higher/louder -- leading me to think these are overstones from aliasing. One method to reduce aliasing is to properly filter the signal. You can see that the TI have a very steep lowpass filter that attenuates the frequencies quickly at the very top of the frequency range. The B however does not seem to have a steep lowpass filter at all.
@@dysfunctionalism27 The FabFilter UA-cam channel has a video "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?" narrated by the great Dan Worrall which is a great introduction to digital audio aliasing. Akash Murthy's UA-cam channel also have some good videos on sampling theory and digital audio processing that are relevant.
As a longtime owner of both, Virus B patches sound far juicier on the Virus B than the TI2. I think the DA converter in the Virus B being slightly 'technically' inferior to the TI models has a less than flat freq response in all the right places for me to prefer it.
This comparison does justice to the company's statement that every next model is better than the previous ones. My TI keyboard is the best (and oldest) of my 9 synths.
Nice shoot out! Regarding the Hall reverb comparison to my ears the saw tooth on the B is brighter than on the TI. This affects the darker reverb sound on the TI. The algorithm itself might be the same because you can hear the same repetitiv pattern of the decay, especially in the low end. Nevertheless I pretty much like the reverb. It's not realistic but due to it strong modulation it matches perfectly with synth sounds. Vangelis-like sounds are easy to create.
Yeah, you’re probably right about the algorithms. I like the brightness of the B more, just funny that Access said it’s identical, when it’s clear there are differences, although they are minor.
Thanks for comparisons. Well, it's a ages old holy war which virus sounds better and if TI is too polished. While they are really close, the TI sounds a tiny bit more clear - there is a some subtle "mud" in B's sound and it's a little bit darker or limited on highs. Interesting where it might be coming from if the CPU are the same and the basic algos too. Probably something to do with the aliasing or internal clock speed. Was there any oversampling on TI line? I could not quickly find the specs. Probably this difference is nothing to worry about, but I have to admit, I love the color of B sound. These subtle darker or more muddy bits add some unique flavor. In world of synthesized sound sometime imperfection has more value than a clinically sterile oversampling and digital precision.
Yeah for sure. I don’t know the differences. I always thought Access maintained they were the same, and that maybe it was the DA converters that made the difference. They’re both good, but the subtle differences are audible to me.
@@MIDERA No internal clipping, better FM sound, better sound when both had the analog boost engaged at the beginning. Slightly better filter. And better reverb. All subjective of course. But I always preferred the KB over the TI whenever there were noticeable differences.
Interesting. I guess the TI did clip when the filter was being swept. It’s odd. I checked my mixer and the gain on the TI was LOWER by quite a bit. So I think that means it runs hotter to begin with (if mixer gain was equivalent, the TI would have been much louder). And yet, it clips badly, even when I turn down the patch gain). Still, there’s a lot my TI does that my kb cannot touch.
@@MIDERA I've had the AN200 and Nord Rack 2 clip internally. It's like, what the hell, it's all digital. How does this happen? Is there too much detail to fit into 16-bits when it hits the DAC? I don't know if that even makes sense.
Your Virus B reverb sounds so much better than my Virus B's reverb. Mine sounds like a wet fart in a tuna can... I don't even use the reverb on my Virus. Can't imagine why mine sounds so different, perhaps the type of patches that I play into the reverb? I notice you went with a very siny patch. I've been trying to use all the crazy digital waveform oscs on my Virus, as I've got analog synths that have the basic but beautiful analog osc waveshapes, and I can't stand the sound of the Virus's analog waveforms... so trying to play to the Virus's strength, I guess, all the harsh, hashy, nyquist digital noise inducing digital waveform oscillators... which when fed into the reverb just seems to blanket every chord or note in white noise like sounding nyquist distortion.
Interesting. I can’t imagine they’re different. I know what you mean about digital artifacts but it makes me wonder if something else is going wrong with your unit. Hmmm…
@MIDERA FWIW... I have a Virus TI full size keyboard and a VB module and I've had them for years. I haven't done any isolated oscillator, filter or effects side-by-side testing. None of that is important to me. The final product, the sound/patch, is what's important to me. That said, I have created countless patches on the VB that I've subsequently transferred to the TI. In every single case, the patches I've created on the VB sound *IDENTICAL* on the TI board; and that includes any patches that were heavily processed with effects on the VB. Of course, some of the patches I've created on the TI that use features not available on the VB will not sound correct on the VB. That's expected and not relevant to this discussion. Backward compatability is not guaranteed when moving patches from the TI/2 to older models. As for the "digital clipping" on the TI's reverb, I too have found that if pushed, the reverb can get a bit "edgy". But that's NOT the case with the VB reverb, which is very smooth. The answer to the reverb differences is simple: Access included the SAME reverb settings as the VB in the TI; which is evident by the VB patches playing exactly the same on the TI. The TI has expanded the reverb settings beyond the VB's reverb and when those new settings are pushed, that's when the TI's reverb tends to cross the limits of traditional reverbs into areas of "digital echos" and "whistles". Access has allowed us to go crazy with the effects on the TI, if we so choose. Some sound designers enjoy crazy reverbs and consider them part of the "sound". In short, the VB effects are more conservative than the TI's. But nothing is missing from the VB's effects that you can't find in the TI.
One thing I noticed is that the virus ti master volume was up during this demo and that caused clipping that goes away when it’s lowered. The reason I had it high was that way I could turn the mixer level down. I have some grounding issues with my TI I think causing it to hum, which goes away when I have the mixer level low. That said, the KB does not have this issue, well either issue actually.
Hey thanks! Although my level of production is definitely not on par with your videos or others with any videography skills. I take the "What should I do tonight?" approach in the few hours I have after putting my kids to bed! Hope it's useful anyway :)
I sold this Virus B. I was very depressed that it did not have the same keybed that an earlier Virus B had. The best keybed I have ever used. The buyer of my first Virus B had said he would be happy to exchange the keybed itself, but I wasn't sure whether it would work properly (although easy to swap and test). Ultimately, that never worked out, and I sold this unit too. I have the chance to buy it back - and if I do, I can find out the OS (or I can ask the guy who has it now). Just have to determine whether I want to buy it, trade it for my Parva, or leave it out of my studio (given I have already have a TI). Thanks!
@@MIDERA Well for now I think I will buy Virus B. I like that it has brighter reverb which comes as icing on a cake to the darker oscillator sound. It gives that instant "Virus" sound we are all familiar with. I will have to research if TI has a setting for reverb brightness. Otherwise some patches will not sound the same. The stock TI reverb is quite darker as demonstrated in this video.
@@MIDERA Have you heard of the DSP56300 project ?? It's a vst emulator of the whole virus architecture. It's not an emulation as say a cs80 vst, it's an emulator like console emulators, it emulates the CPU and runs the original virus firmware, you can choose which version you run, including B. I have an original KB and a dozen of vintage analog stuff, this emulation plugin is nuts. Essentially it is like the powercore version of virus. So yeah you can run virus on a computer, can't run a jx3p.
Hah, yeah, that's when I looked at the Virus... back in 2011-2012. I loved checking that site out. I made the Radikal Technologies Spectralis and Accelerator pages... I remember making them and it took like 3 years for them to put the pages up.
It looks like this debate about which version sound better has been going on for a while because after the release of the Virus C, Access came out with the virus classic module which is effectively a virus B module reissue. The only difference is that the case is red instead of black and red for the virus b. I wonder if access released the virus classic because some people thought the virus b sounded better than the virus c. Personally I bought a virus classic module because it was about the same price as a B but was manufactured in 2004 instead of 1999 and was less than half the price of a TI or TI2.
I have owned both the TI and C, they sound exactly the same if you don't count for effects and the grain/format/wavetable oscs. Same Motorola DSP chip basically, running the same code
Hi Midera, I used to own an Virus Indigo 1 and remember using the vocoder function and getting decent results. I later exchanged to the Ti which I still have but seemed like I could never get decent results when using the vocoder mode. Could you do a comparison on you're KB and Ti? This was an interesting video, cheers Ajay
Hi - sorry but my Kb is no longer with me. I have never used the vocoder in any of my viruses or… any of my synths for that matter! I wonder what the difference would be between the two units.
Every now and then... I'll just hit a random Stewart Copeland, Police, Sting, The Cure, or whatever music video on UA-cam with millions of hits or 100s of 1000s of views... "UFOs use CTP Propulsion to control Gravity."
The FX do sound better. Whether that matters or not is up to you to decide. Where the B is better than the TI is the keybed (of the 61key versions) and the fact that “local on/off” stays that way on power down and start up. That said, ultimately I prefer the TI.
You could go to all the forums that say the B sounds better than the C and better than the TI if you'd like to learn more about the discussion. Also, better is subjective, so I don't even think any of it is relevant. But people can listen to them and see what they think.
The B is still great, definitely. Apart from the UI, which I prefer on the TI, the B just sounds amazing. And I think it looked the best (well, the TI polar and the kB both are my favorites).
It totally broke my heart to sell my Kb, but it was a necessary move at the time. What made sleep easier for me after the realization of having to part ways with it, was that all my fave patches, in fact all of the b's patches are on the TI, and a blind taste test of those rendered little to no discernable difference. But, yeah, I think you defintiely need to see the Kb in person. It's such a beautiful synth, visually and sonically. If you've got the room and the cash, I highly recommend snagging one, even if it's capabilities are a bit redundant with a TI in the room. Thanks for the vid!
Yeah - I suppose that's one thing I should have done, compared exact patches, but wow I'm too lazy so I probably won't do that. I'm going to mess with the gain settings on my TI and see if that is an issue. It shouldn't be for a simple init patch, but worth looking into. I was really surprised by how much I liked the look of the B - but the UI is frustrating in my opinion. At the end of the day, I would love to find a synth with the same feel (keybed) but different engine so I don't have complete overlap. I don't think I'd use the B very much because of that.
@@MIDERA Totally agree that the UI has improved. Two dozen menu levels to get to that arp and whatnot on the Kb! Haha. This vid is great though and I'm glad you hung onto the synth. I can't remember if you said you were going to sell it again at one point or not. The keybed on my Kb was a weird one, too. I'd never, and to this day, felt anything like it. The black keys were almost thinner than most and had a little texture to them. Rougher than matte...bizarre. Really gave it a unique vibe and was a blast to play.
What’s funny (not at all funny) is that I spent 3X more on the second kb that I bought… and it DID NOT HAVE THAT KEYBED that you describe. People are telling me it’s the same thing. No way. At all. Totally different. What a bummer. The guy I sold mine to said he’d be willing to swap with me… so I might do that. The new keybed isn’t bad, but nothing to write home about. But yeah, I don’t like the menu diving and it’s really hard to justify having two of the same synths. I have like 18 keyboards -_-
So, I just snagged a KC, and it has the same keybed as my old Kb!!! 😂 It's the keybed we've been pining away for this whole time! When I bought this synth, I thought it might have something more modern, but considering there's only about two years difference between the releases... Also, chatter on Gearspace led me to believe that it was, in fact, something different. I don't believe it. Such a beauty. It's easily my favorite keybed outside of the TI2-61/Darkstar/Polar and the Voyager, which are all different and lovely in their own way.
Hi Midera! I would point towards an open source project emulating motorola DSPs... theoretically able to run virus C/B Roms as VST.... If you give me your discord username I'll give you access. Cheers.
Hey, I’ve seen you mention this elsewhere. This would be most useful to someone who doesn’t have a Virus? Are you wanting me to compare my B to the VST? I am not sure I’m on discord…. Thanks!
NOTE: Today I finally tried to figure out why I was experiencing so much clipping on my Virus TI. The problem was that I threw the Master Volume to almost maximum - because there is a high frequency hum that goes through Output 1. This meant that I could turn the gain down on the mixer and that sound would go away, only to find that internal clipping with reverb would occur. Turning the Master volume to 9 o'clock fixed this issue for me. I don't hear any clipping. Which is good - because I remember my TI sounded so good before, and now it sounds good again.
Does your described clipping, occurred by max. master volume on the TI, affect your comparison in any way? Btw: Which synth of the two would you personally prefer regarding the sound.
@@riorattenrudel3907 I bet the Ti. But if you're budget minded, and the B is significantly cheaper, I don't know, haven't looked at the used market for these synths in a decade, but if money is a REAL issue, I'd say the B is fine.
I bought the B new back in 2000, and have never liked the sound. Wish I sold it immediately and got about a grand back for it, now it is just half that... But I'm trying to make peace with the B....
But if you're just looking for an analog sounding polysynth, there are now brand new actual analog chef's kiss sounding polysynths... and they are affordable! Even! Take for example Behringer's just released but not yet delivered to distributors/consumers Pro-800. Which is what, $400? THAT IS CRAZY! AN 8 voice analog osc polysynth... for less than a thousand... less than half of a thousand... TAKE MY MONEY (that I don't have, if I did I'd load my minty Virus B into a cannon and shoot it into space).
The thing about the Virus synths, in general, is the freaking sound design capabilities, they're immense, endless. They are like a hugely modular digital polysynth, so many aspects of a sound can be modulated/affected in some way. There are novel sound design combinations/patches to last a lifetime, seriously. The thing is, to my ears, maybe it is my B, but to my ears, the B's basic sound engine is crap, so you can do all this crazy bellz and whistlez sound design stuff, but what is gonna come out the outputs... shiz... hashy digital noise from all the high frequency oscillations, and not just from the oscs, there's all kinds of audio rate modulations that can go all over, but all that hits the filter, which tends to be very digital sounding, and you get blankets of nyquist noise, sounds like, but worse, than just white noise over everything.
It causes everything to sound digitally blurry. Like if you play a four note chord, and you've done some weirdness with the sound design, and I'm not using any of the digital distortion/saturation capabilities anywhere, but in the oscs, or the filters, you'll get this blanket of nyquist noise, and you won't be able to hear each individual note within the chord. And more caveats, I know how to gain stage irl, and within the Virus, I'm not driving anything to hard at all, nothing anywhere near clipping, it's just the really bright digital waveform oscs hitting nyquist, but it sounds like, to me, that the Virus B runs at 10khz, not 44.1 or 88.2khz, which I'd prefer, I think, I think you'd avoid all the very audible digital noise caused by frequencies going up to and beyond the Virus B's internal processing frequency.
Literally last night I was working with the Virus B again, as the day before I replaced one of the virus b's blown power capacitors (they all go, I think there may be a design flaw in the powersupply section of the synth's circuit, but also, I think in the late 90's, there was a global supply issue with bad quality capacitors, like they all were manufactured bad, had really short lifespans... I've even had a similar cap go bad killing a device in my late 2000's Acura suv, something that has happened to all of these vehicles, and I bet the mexican subcontractor that built the boards for this unit was still using that old bad capacitor stock, probably because they were dead cheap, which allowed the company to bid the project a dollar lower per unit than the next cheapest competitor, so they got the contract to build a pretty important unit that ended up causing serious problems in all of these vehicles...
I mean the cap I pulled off the B's board was made in Japan, and a higher temp rated cap, rated at 105 Celsius, it should be good quality, but it slowly started going bad maybe 4 years ago, and died and killed the B a couple years ago, it's been dead since, somehow collecting dust, even under a cover, which I just don't understand!)
But I realized I had a circuit board lying around with the appropriate value (25v 100uF... the original was brown and rated for 105 Celsius, a higher, more costly rating, but I used a 25v 100uF rated at 85 Celsius) caps on it that I could scavenge to replace the blown cap on the Virus. Really easy fix, even for me, who only has two hands, and crappy ones at that. But really easy to get the old cap out and the new (newer, it also was fairly old) cap in. Without overheating the cap, other components on the double sided board, accidentally pulling the pads or traces) Whamo blamo, the Virus booted no problem, sounds as mediocre as it ever did!
But what I was trying to say about the Virus sound before I so rudely interupted myself, is that I was working with the Virus B yesterday, a stringy/flutey sort of chill padish chordal patch, and I was working with a Moog Grandmother, Behri Crave, and even a Korg Volca Bass, all three of those being analog oscs and filters... and no matter what I did, the Virus B always sounded back, farther away, while the true analog devices sounded up front, really present and clear, even when filtered down. I removed all the onboard fx on the Virus, thinking maybe the chorus, reverb at one time, delay at another, even phaser, I was thinking they were causing a bluring that was pushing the Virus back. But it wasn't the fx... The Virus can put out a pretty hot signal, hot enough to clip my converters, so it wasn't volume, the Virus was louder than the other analog synths, but it still sounded more distant, less audibly distinct.
And that is the thing I've always felt about this synth, from the day it arrived from Germany, I've always been disappointed with the sound, but could never really put my ear on it. That's why my 22/3 year old B is minty, because I haven't used it that much over those two decades.
Promethean quest, they tried too hard, put too many features into the synth, so much so, they exceeded the digital chips/tech that were available at the time... so while it is truly a whiz bang synth capable of so much, what actually renders out as audio is blurry, hashy, indistinct.
I really, really wish they focused their design efforts on the core sound of the unit, and held that as their design objective, rather than making an uber synth that did it all.
Like if you listen to a single digital osc making a saw wave, with the filters completely open on the Virus, versus a lowly Volca Bass, lowly Behri Crave, or the mighty Moog Gma, the difference is night and day. The Virus saw is not nearly as buzzy, not nearly as sharp. It sounds like it is filtered down a bit, but I don't think it is, per se, I think it is higher harmonics just getting lost in the engine, or hitting nyquist and turning into digital hash... The virus cannot do a simple saw or square wave, I mean, that is basement level stuff for a virtual or actually analog synth. If you can't make an unfiltered saw sound buzzy and sharp, it doesn't matter how you subtly modulate the cutoff spread between the two filters...
But still... I'm going to continue to work with the B, try again to get something useful out of it. My synthesis capabilities have continued to level up over the past few years, I really understand all the menu options now.... even if I can't find where I set the basis note for filter cutoff keyfollowing. I've been through every menu twice and I can't find it again!
Which is my actual final point... yeah, the Virus B is a knobby interface, but really, almost all of the sound design capabilities are in menus, and the menus are just linear progressions of features, not hierarchical at all, so what I just figured out, because I now have one, the Virus B is basically a bad sounding version of an Alpha Juno... same user interface, really. Just one long linear scroll through sound design capabilities. I wish Roland, or Access for that matter, payed attention to Ensoniq's UI design capabilities, as ASM Hydrasynth has, that is a very fast, very easy to use heirarchical user interface. To prove I'm not just a digital hater, analog purist, I'm seriously desiring the Hydrasynth keyboard version, which itself is a do it all uber synth, incorporating all the long desired features of synthesists over the last 50 years, but the Hydrasynth designers at ASM are actually smart so designed an excellent UI that is instantly navigable, so it has all the features, and you can instantly access all of the features, rather than clicking, clicking, clicking through thirty pages of parameters on the Alpha Juno or the Virus...
That's way more than I inteded to write. My apologies, hope this has helped. Don't take my opinion as gospel. I think the Virus tends to do Eurodance/Trance type sounds well, like that is its strongsuit, but I hate that shiz, so maybe I'm biased. I just wanted a good sounding (virtual) analog synth, and that is not what I got! For $1,100 dollars of 2000 dollar value, that's over $4 grand today... I coulda gotten a brand new OBI!
i had the same "problem" on my B tho. Would you say with this revelation that they sound equal now?
According to the manufacturer, the later models can do anything the previous ones can and more. One major difference has been the EQ starting with the C. The TI/TI2 - as the name "total integration" suggests - is made for use in a DAW via the USB-port and I have to say it works quite well. Since, I'm working with a hardware-only setup, it's not such an important feature for me currently, but who knows. The TI2 is an amazing, complete synth that outsynths pretty much anything I've owned before. Obviously, it's not analog but it get very close because of the awesome filters.
Yeah, I don’t use the TI aspect of mine either, and I’m not sure it works with Mac anymore, maybe it still works on windows?
The virus is my favorite synth ever, fyi :)
@@MIDERA I tried the VST in Ableton Live 11 and it works. You can only load one plugin instance (which makes sense given the fact that the sound is generated within the one piece of hardware). There is another good integration plugin from Mystery Island which even works with the earlier versions of the Virus. I think it uses Sysex code to communicate with the synth in real time. They also make plugins for other older synths like the Korg MS2000.
Someone released a Virus emulator, can you make a comparison with this? It's called Ostirus for Ti and Osirus for b/c model
I could, but I have heard they’re indistinguishable. It’s crazy they exist!
I did it, B against the OSirus... I matched the levels and the presets sounded the same
5:38 The TI has 4 harmonic peaks with very little harmonic content between the peaks, but on the B the content in between the 4 big peaks are much higher/louder -- leading me to think these are overstones from aliasing. One method to reduce aliasing is to properly filter the signal. You can see that the TI have a very steep lowpass filter that attenuates the frequencies quickly at the very top of the frequency range. The B however does not seem to have a steep lowpass filter at all.
Where can I gain this knowledge?
@@dysfunctionalism27 The FabFilter UA-cam channel has a video "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?" narrated by the great Dan Worrall which is a great introduction to digital audio aliasing. Akash Murthy's UA-cam channel also have some good videos on sampling theory and digital audio processing that are relevant.
I have a chance to buy my old Virus KB back, could trade my JX3P for it. Might go for it since I never play my JX. I loved my virus though.
I have owned the B and TI2, and I really think the B sounded better, but both were nice to have.
I would agree with this.
As a longtime owner of both, Virus B patches sound far juicier on the Virus B than the TI2. I think the DA converter in the Virus B being slightly 'technically' inferior to the TI models has a less than flat freq response in all the right places for me to prefer it.
@@neuroscope9052 That will be the reason. As far as I know, the sound engine didn't change a bit from the Virus A.
@@chakko007I had the A. Now I have TI2. My goodness I remember the A sounding soooo Crystal warm. TI2 gets clipped hot it's annoying.
Thats Because B sounds more like Analog, and TI is like software and it's true. Yeah, TI is cleaner but in same time it's more like a great VST Synth.
This comparison does justice to the company's statement that every next model is better than the previous ones. My TI keyboard is the best (and oldest) of my 9 synths.
Thanks! Yeah, I love my TI and my kb… might have to buy a TI 61 key and sell the kb and polar. I dunno!
Nice shoot out! Regarding the Hall reverb comparison to my ears the saw tooth on the B is brighter than on the TI. This affects the darker reverb sound on the TI. The algorithm itself might be the same because you can hear the same repetitiv pattern of the decay, especially in the low end. Nevertheless I pretty much like the reverb. It's not realistic but due to it strong modulation it matches perfectly with synth sounds. Vangelis-like sounds are easy to create.
Yeah, you’re probably right about the algorithms. I like the brightness of the B more, just funny that Access said it’s identical, when it’s clear there are differences, although they are minor.
Thanks for comparisons. Well, it's a ages old holy war which virus sounds better and if TI is too polished. While they are really close, the TI sounds a tiny bit more clear - there is a some subtle "mud" in B's sound and it's a little bit darker or limited on highs. Interesting where it might be coming from if the CPU are the same and the basic algos too.
Probably something to do with the aliasing or internal clock speed. Was there any oversampling on TI line? I could not quickly find the specs.
Probably this difference is nothing to worry about, but I have to admit, I love the color of B sound. These subtle darker or more muddy bits add some unique flavor. In world of synthesized sound sometime imperfection has more value than a clinically sterile oversampling and digital precision.
Yeah for sure. I don’t know the differences. I always thought Access maintained they were the same, and that maybe it was the DA converters that made the difference. They’re both good, but the subtle differences are audible to me.
42:24 I'm still watching bro!
Hah, thanks!!!
“B” is for “better.” 😁 seriously though after this vid I think a B desktop could be in my future. Thanks for making this vid!
Lol, but why? I didn’t really show them doing anything cool… I just did stupid comparisons, lol.
@@MIDERA No internal clipping, better FM sound, better sound when both had the analog boost engaged at the beginning. Slightly better filter. And better reverb. All subjective of course. But I always preferred the KB over the TI whenever there were noticeable differences.
Interesting. I guess the TI did clip when the filter was being swept. It’s odd.
I checked my mixer and the gain on the TI was LOWER by quite a bit. So I think that means it runs hotter to begin with (if mixer gain was equivalent, the TI would have been much louder). And yet, it clips badly, even when I turn down the patch gain).
Still, there’s a lot my TI does that my kb cannot touch.
@@MIDERA I've had the AN200 and Nord Rack 2 clip internally. It's like, what the hell, it's all digital. How does this happen? Is there too much detail to fit into 16-bits when it hits the DAC? I don't know if that even makes sense.
@@thesrabbit The soundtrack of hell is digital clipping
Your Virus B reverb sounds so much better than my Virus B's reverb. Mine sounds like a wet fart in a tuna can... I don't even use the reverb on my Virus. Can't imagine why mine sounds so different, perhaps the type of patches that I play into the reverb?
I notice you went with a very siny patch. I've been trying to use all the crazy digital waveform oscs on my Virus, as I've got analog synths that have the basic but beautiful analog osc waveshapes, and I can't stand the sound of the Virus's analog waveforms... so trying to play to the Virus's strength, I guess, all the harsh, hashy, nyquist digital noise inducing digital waveform oscillators... which when fed into the reverb just seems to blanket every chord or note in white noise like sounding nyquist distortion.
Interesting. I can’t imagine they’re different. I know what you mean about digital artifacts but it makes me wonder if something else is going wrong with your unit. Hmmm…
@MIDERA
FWIW...
I have a Virus TI full size keyboard and a VB module and I've had them for years. I haven't done any isolated oscillator, filter or effects side-by-side testing. None of that is important to me. The final product, the sound/patch, is what's important to me.
That said, I have created countless patches on the VB that I've subsequently transferred to the TI.
In every single case, the patches I've created on the VB sound *IDENTICAL* on the TI board; and that includes any patches that were heavily processed with effects on the VB.
Of course, some of the patches I've created on the TI that use features not available on the VB will not sound correct on the VB. That's expected and not relevant to this discussion. Backward compatability is not guaranteed when moving patches from the TI/2 to older models.
As for the "digital clipping" on the TI's reverb, I too have found that if pushed, the reverb can get a bit "edgy". But that's NOT the case with the VB reverb, which is very smooth.
The answer to the reverb differences is simple: Access included the SAME reverb settings as the VB in the TI; which is evident by the VB patches playing exactly the same on the TI.
The TI has expanded the reverb settings beyond the VB's reverb and when those new settings are pushed, that's when the TI's reverb tends to cross the limits of traditional reverbs into areas of "digital echos" and "whistles". Access has allowed us to go crazy with the effects on the TI, if we so choose. Some sound designers enjoy crazy reverbs and consider them part of the "sound".
In short, the VB effects are more conservative than the TI's. But nothing is missing from the VB's effects that you can't find in the TI.
One thing I noticed is that the virus ti master volume was up during this demo and that caused clipping that goes away when it’s lowered. The reason I had it high was that way I could turn the mixer level down. I have some grounding issues with my TI I think causing it to hum, which goes away when I have the mixer level low.
That said, the KB does not have this issue, well either issue actually.
Ooh this is going to be interesting
Hey thanks! Although my level of production is definitely not on par with your videos or others with any videography skills.
I take the "What should I do tonight?" approach in the few hours I have after putting my kids to bed!
Hope it's useful anyway :)
after the first few notes that sounded different, they proceeded to sound exactly the same
Yeah, that's my take as well.
Great video. Just wondering is your Virus B running OS4.9? Maybe there is a difference in the reverb algorithm of the earlier OS vs later OS.
I sold this Virus B. I was very depressed that it did not have the same keybed that an earlier Virus B had. The best keybed I have ever used. The buyer of my first Virus B had said he would be happy to exchange the keybed itself, but I wasn't sure whether it would work properly (although easy to swap and test). Ultimately, that never worked out, and I sold this unit too.
I have the chance to buy it back - and if I do, I can find out the OS (or I can ask the guy who has it now).
Just have to determine whether I want to buy it, trade it for my Parva, or leave it out of my studio (given I have already have a TI).
Thanks!
@@MIDERA Well for now I think I will buy Virus B. I like that it has brighter reverb which comes as icing on a cake to the darker oscillator sound. It gives that instant "Virus" sound we are all familiar with. I will have to research if TI has a setting for reverb brightness. Otherwise some patches will not sound the same. The stock TI reverb is quite darker as demonstrated in this video.
@@MIDERA would you really concider trading the parva for the kb ? they seem so different.
@lameturtle1170 the trade isn’t on the table anymore… I could trade my JX3P for it.
@@MIDERA Have you heard of the DSP56300 project ?? It's a vst emulator of the whole virus architecture. It's not an emulation as say a cs80 vst, it's an emulator like console emulators, it emulates the CPU and runs the original virus firmware, you can choose which version you run, including B. I have an original KB and a dozen of vintage analog stuff, this emulation plugin is nuts. Essentially it is like the powercore version of virus. So yeah you can run virus on a computer, can't run a jx3p.
yay VSE plug! yeah, it was great... in 2012.
Hah, yeah, that's when I looked at the Virus... back in 2011-2012. I loved checking that site out. I made the Radikal Technologies Spectralis and Accelerator pages... I remember making them and it took like 3 years for them to put the pages up.
It looks like this debate about which version sound better has been going on for a while because after the release of the Virus C, Access came out with the virus classic module which is effectively a virus B module reissue. The only difference is that the case is red instead of black and red for the virus b. I wonder if access released the virus classic because some people thought the virus b sounded better than the virus c. Personally I bought a virus classic module because it was about the same price as a B but was manufactured in 2004 instead of 1999 and was less than half the price of a TI or TI2.
I think they’re all great, but prefer the workflow of the later versions like TI. That’s the biggest factor for me.
TI2 desktop for the win. I have a Darkstar Virus TI2 Polar keyboard and would get a desktop TI2 or Virus C and skip A or B models.
I love my TI. My desert island synth.
I have owned both the TI and C, they sound exactly the same if you don't count for effects and the grain/format/wavetable oscs. Same Motorola DSP chip basically, running the same code
That was my conclusion to. Adding the FX changes things and not in the benefit of the TI.
I also compared several years ago and there's no difference.
I also compared A and C without differences (turn off phaser on the C)
Sans effects, they sound identical?
That was my finding as well.
FX do change the equation.
Hi Midera, I used to own an Virus Indigo 1 and remember using the vocoder function and getting decent results. I later exchanged to the Ti which I still have but seemed like I could never get decent results when using the vocoder mode. Could you do a comparison on you're KB and Ti? This was an interesting video, cheers Ajay
Hi - sorry but my Kb is no longer with me. I have never used the vocoder in any of my viruses or… any of my synths for that matter! I wonder what the difference would be between the two units.
I have a C and a TI2, keeping the TI2 as a workhorse.
I had a C, it was great! But the TI polar looked so cool, I could keep only one and that was it.
at 9:00 the Virus B sounds a bit fatter to my ears.
Hmm, I didn't hear that myself. They sound identical!
Every now and then...
I'll just hit a random Stewart Copeland, Police, Sting, The Cure, or whatever music video on UA-cam with millions of hits or 100s of 1000s of views...
"UFOs use CTP Propulsion to control Gravity."
Hmm, ok?
I had a Virus KC and a TI had to sell them both. :( Miss them both.
Nooooooo! Hopefully you can get one again!
OH but the virus B sounds warmer 🤣
The FX do sound better. Whether that matters or not is up to you to decide.
Where the B is better than the TI is the keybed (of the 61key versions) and the fact that “local on/off” stays that way on power down and start up.
That said, ultimately I prefer the TI.
What's your favorite synth for soft ambient pad textures?
Probably my System 8 or Virus TI. I think Virus TI probably slightly more so.
@@MIDERA well shoot now I got a TI2 61 on the way haha
Nice!!!! Would love a 61 key version, but also love my polar.
it's weird how i prefer the smoother top end of the B but the sound very close ha. in a mix i couldn't tell
Yeah, I just think they're not as identical as Access said they were. But they are very close and I couldn't tell in a mix either.
have you messed with the osiris project Motorola dsp modelling VSTi? @@MIDERA
I haven’t, but I’ve heard good things about it :)
it's fun..i'm actually really curious how it sounds against the hardware. (i don't think anyone has made that video yet)@@MIDERA
DMPM just got the snow,…. Great synth better than the Waldorf IMO
Never used a Waldorf personally, but I do love my Virus synths :)
Series B - TOP, the densest sound of all viruses.
Agreed
Does the desk top sound the same at the keyboard B ?
14:30 - Do you also hate sand?
Lol, I’m not sure I know what you mean.
What's there to discuss?? Ti is better.
You could go to all the forums that say the B sounds better than the C and better than the TI if you'd like to learn more about the discussion.
Also, better is subjective, so I don't even think any of it is relevant. But people can listen to them and see what they think.
The chorus can sound quite good, I remember this patch from vengeance sounds for instance: ua-cam.com/video/qrv34TH0myI/v-deo.html
I agree - it’s very good :)
😅😊
:)
If you're ever a programmer you will learn to count from zero.
🙂
Luv and Peace.
What's this in reference to? Did I say something in the video?
It is hard to beleave that the B sounds better than the TI, but I can hear it clearly.
Yeah, it does sound a little better for some reason.
I needed to hear "it's not worth upgrading". The B has been great 👍
The B is still great, definitely. Apart from the UI, which I prefer on the TI, the B just sounds amazing. And I think it looked the best (well, the TI polar and the kB both are my favorites).
The Virus TI has a lot of additional features though.
It totally broke my heart to sell my Kb, but it was a necessary move at the time. What made sleep easier for me after the realization of having to part ways with it, was that all my fave patches, in fact all of the b's patches are on the TI, and a blind taste test of those rendered little to no discernable difference. But, yeah, I think you defintiely need to see the Kb in person. It's such a beautiful synth, visually and sonically. If you've got the room and the cash, I highly recommend snagging one, even if it's capabilities are a bit redundant with a TI in the room. Thanks for the vid!
Yeah - I suppose that's one thing I should have done, compared exact patches, but wow I'm too lazy so I probably won't do that. I'm going to mess with the gain settings on my TI and see if that is an issue. It shouldn't be for a simple init patch, but worth looking into.
I was really surprised by how much I liked the look of the B - but the UI is frustrating in my opinion. At the end of the day, I would love to find a synth with the same feel (keybed) but different engine so I don't have complete overlap. I don't think I'd use the B very much because of that.
@@MIDERA Totally agree that the UI has improved. Two dozen menu levels to get to that arp and whatnot on the Kb! Haha. This vid is great though and I'm glad you hung onto the synth. I can't remember if you said you were going to sell it again at one point or not.
The keybed on my Kb was a weird one, too. I'd never, and to this day, felt anything like it. The black keys were almost thinner than most and had a little texture to them. Rougher than matte...bizarre. Really gave it a unique vibe and was a blast to play.
What’s funny (not at all funny) is that I spent 3X more on the second kb that I bought… and it DID NOT HAVE THAT KEYBED that you describe.
People are telling me it’s the same thing. No way. At all. Totally different. What a bummer.
The guy I sold mine to said he’d be willing to swap with me… so I might do that.
The new keybed isn’t bad, but nothing to write home about.
But yeah, I don’t like the menu diving and it’s really hard to justify having two of the same synths. I have like 18 keyboards -_-
So, I just snagged a KC, and it has the same keybed as my old Kb!!! 😂 It's the keybed we've been pining away for this whole time! When I bought this synth, I thought it might have something more modern, but considering there's only about two years difference between the releases... Also, chatter on Gearspace led me to believe that it was, in fact, something different. I don't believe it. Such a beauty. It's easily my favorite keybed outside of the TI2-61/Darkstar/Polar and the Voyager, which are all different and lovely in their own way.
Hi Midera! I would point towards an open source project emulating motorola DSPs... theoretically able to run virus C/B Roms as VST.... If you give me your discord username I'll give you access. Cheers.
Hey, I’ve seen you mention this elsewhere. This would be most useful to someone who doesn’t have a Virus? Are you wanting me to compare my B to the VST?
I am not sure I’m on discord….
Thanks!