I think this is a similar debate to the tone wood one. IMO, the tone on an electric comes 99% from the pickups/amp, which comes from the strings vibrating, not the wood itself vibrating. So whether or not strings would go trough the body, doesn’t matter to me. It may affect maybe 1% of the tone, but even if it did, it’s so minor that tweaking your amp settings could easily counter act that effect
For me, the only difference in putting strings through the body vs through the back of the bridge is the difference in string angle and force that is pushing the string to the saddle, which in top loaded aproach may result in loosening of a screws used to set up strings action and that may cause buzzing/rattling in the sadle and that's basically it.
Ya know, I was in the same camp as you (and when it comes to the BODY, I still am), but I found a great deal on an 80s Fender Strat neck with a rosewood fretboard, so I took the maple-board neck off of my Squier 50s Classic Vibe and bolted the rosewood one on, and it's definitely a lot smoother/warmer/less pokey than the maple board. Conversely, I ordered a solid mahogany Strat body from Warmoth and swapped everything over from my Classic Vibe. Plugged it in and didn't notice even a slight change in tone. So, in my own personal experience, body wood hasn't made a difference, but the fretboard wood has 🤷♂️
@@joojoosasa there are too many variables as i am learning. were those frets on both the maple and rosewood the same kind of frets? I definitely agree about the neck being the most important, I am still new and learning but playing around at guitar stores the neck is the most obvious tone changer when playing low-gain, low-volume, and on the same amp. the indian laurel necks on squiers surprised me with being as comfy as it is
To me it's strings effecting the tone first and foremost, due to the variance in magnetic reactivity of the materials used, the core to wound ratio(for a wound string), the gauge and the tension the string is under. There can be such huge variance, from monel, SS, typical steel, etc. That's primary, then the further potentially massive variance of the pickups, tone controls, and amp. Yeah, 100% agree on the wood, it's only relevant from a tone perspective in so much as it just needing to be at least as stiff as the neck.
In my opinion, all the string's energy is transferred at the first contact point on the saddle. What happens after that (from there to the ball end) doesn't matter for tone or sustain on a solid-body electric. Mechanically, anchoring to the back of the guitar (string-through) will be stronger. However, in practice, the screws on top-loader are more than enough, and the additional strength of the string-through is superfluous. So, bottom line: whichever you find easier to use. It's more important that there aren't any rattles in the saddles.
not quite. if there is a reasonable area of string behind the bridge then sympathetic vibrations can occur. Purely based on experience, the shallower the break angle the more these sympathetic vibrations can be heard - it can almost sound like reverb. So it does impact tone. Whether those sympathetic vibrations are "felt" by the main vibrating area of the string enough to affect how it sustains, I don't know.
The biggest difference to me is feel. A top load feels more "slinky" to me. I prefer that feel. It's all ice cream though. Every choice is a flavour we choose based on our likes. Thank you for pointing out that LPs and SGs are top loads. I find that tidbit get missed so often in this discussion and goes a long way to help my customers understand that top load is not actually inferior, just different. Subscribed! Looking forward to more content!
In my opinion, feel is the single most important factor when choosing a guitar. You can change the look and tone, but feel is much harder to safely change.
Your post is interesting to me. I noticed the longer the string the more slinky it is. I tune down a full step (2 frets) so it is more slinky and I use big string gauges to try to make up for it. I use a string through tele and a strat with tremelo block and my strat having longer strings is more slinky to me. As for the string vibration, it dies after the bridge, doesn't matter anyway, pickups is what gives you the tone in an electric guitar. There is an awesome video of a dude in Nashville proving it. You can have the strings on a guitar, a 2 x 4 and in the open air with a pickup underneath, makes no difference in sound on an electric guitar, none. That tone wood is ok for acoustic, but not electric.
I'm already subbed but I just gotta say, every time I do a youtube search for something I wanna know about that is kicking around in my head, your vids come up and they are always really good.
@@barklordofthesith2997 basically because of strain on the saddles. the string also has less freedom to move when it is through body. I am assuming if you install your bridge correctly and the saddles and screws are great, then no, he is not incorrect, and this guy probably just wanted to say that, but as many others said it seems top loaders tend to want to pulled off the body, while through body's are being pulling down into the body.
I agree. Solid bodies don’t create sustain. Any energy leaving the string via vibrations transferred to the body is lost as acoustic energy (and heat). So it’s removing energy from the string, which reduces sustain. This is why a body with a lot of mass, like a Les Paul, has such good sustain. Most of the energy of the vibrating string is staying in the string. You get long sustain and very little acoustic output. In contrast, look at a banjo; almost all the energy of the vibrating string is converted to driving the drum head. You get a loud acoustic output, but almost zero sustain. Personally I don’t find that string through bridges add anything. But I do make string through guitars.
Hi you. I am changing my original bridge for a hardtail on my Squier Fat Strat (the original is not of very good quality and it is difficult to keep it tuned in open G and without the sixth string) and your tutorials were very useful to me. Above all because of the simplicity and pragmatism of the explanation. Thank you so much!!!!! Hug from Argentina.
I totally agree with you it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in tone just aesthetics. It's a marketing ploy, you get some company like Gibson saying and telling everyone you gotta have this doohickey for the best tone and then suddenly it becomes the gospel.
Yup. The tonal difference is so tiny that you would never tell the difference. It’s like the poly vs nitro debate. Really, imho, the ones that are concerned so much about tone are the ones who cannot play and try to blame it on the guitar rather than them not practicing.
Im glad you said that...most of these tone experts can barly play 5 bar chords. No amount of money or snake oil you throw at a guitar, will make you a better player. A great player can make a cheap guitar sound fantastic.
I agree with you on all points. I've had thru body and top loading Tele's. The most difference in the sound of them was the pickups, IMHO. Am currently building a HT Strat, will be thru body, but only because the holes are already there.
It’s what I always thought but hearing it from a professional means I’ll be using a top loader on my first build! Thanks for the time and money I get back!
A string through bridge is, because of how it works, pushed more into the body cause the string comes out and over the saddle, so the pressure on the bridge is DOWN. A top loader has a pressure the lifts the back of the bridge off of the body cause the strings pull it straight towards the neck, trying to pry it off. That's why people often opt for the string through and mention sustain - the body is not going anywhere, it's a giant slab of wood and the bridge get even more pushed into the body, which should add to the sustain. If you have a bridge that keeps wanting to pry off of the body (a top loader), you're going to (in theory) have just the front of the bridge pushed into the body, so less surface, less sustain. How much and can you feel the difference with all the electronics, amps, pedals, PAs.. I have no idea. I use a string through cause I like how it works and puts less strain on the bridge screws, they're there to, basically, just keep it from moving a bit. On a top loader, you better screw them in tight.
actually less surface contact = more sustain. For sustain, in fact, you don't want transference of vibration to the body - you want to keep it all in the string. This is a common mistake among guitar players. That's why the contact point of the bridge saddles is very small.
Contact points will ALWAYS be saddle breakover and nut seat and what is in contact from THAT point.... correct ? So any string beyond that is inert to the note IMO. I am commenting to assist in my thinking. if you could stretch a string to pitch with nothing touching it (who knows make something up, magic, magnets etc..) would it be different than something at each end holding it in place ?
Agree 100% Chris. It's about perceived value because so many folks have drank the coolaid about solid body guitars being tone wood. 1 3/4" blocks of wood really don't vibrate. Now a neck might vibrate.
I don't subscribe to the 'tonewood' stupidity nor do I believe there is any difference between through and top loading, but I do not understand how you can say 1 3/4" blocks of wood (by which i take you to mean the body of an electric guitar) don't vibrate. When I strum a chord on a solid body electric guitar I can feel the body vibrating. Press your ear against the body and you can hear the vibrations from the strings transmitted through the wood. These vibrations do contribute to the overall sound. Consider that even when the vibrations of the strings are so small they are not easily visible, they can still be clearly heard via the pickups. The strings do not vibrate in relation to pickups that are somehow mounted to a fixed point is space. The pickups are mounted on the body. If the body vibrates then so do the pickups. Therefore the output signal from the guitar is the result of the relative vibration of both the strings and the pickup.
Terry Relph-Knight, there may be some slight vibration in the wood but not in the audible sense. Pickups don’t create sound by vibrating but by the interference of the metallic string disturbing the magnetic field of the pickups. Although I think we may be trying to say the same thing.
@@jonahguitarguy But that is my point, we are dealing with slight vibrations. As I said very small vibrations are clearly audible from the amplifier and even directly by ear. Play an electric guitar unplugged and you can still hear it and that is not because of the air being moved directly by the strings. The sound you hear is the air being moved by the vibrating body. The vibrations of the body, although smaller than string vibration are still significant. If you tap on the body of a solid electric guitar those taps are audible from the amplifier. Whether the strings move in relation to the pickup, or the pickup moves in relation to the strings, that movement will still be translated into the signal voltage across the ends of the pickup coil. Current is induced in the pickup coil when there is a change in the magnetic field around the coil. The permanent magnets in the pickup magnetise the strings. If the strings do not move, but the pickup does, a changing current is still induced in the coil because the coil is moving through the field from the strings. If the strings and the pickup are both moving then both of those movements contribute to the signal current in the coil.
Thank you for your information! So interesting. A lot of expensive bass guitars uses Top Loader design. I feel some "magic" playing feeling in Stratocaster tremolo bridge, and I think It have to do with part of the string from the saddle to the end. Also in Telecaster guitars I think that part of the twangy playing feel has to do something with string through body bridge design. But In case of hardtail strat bridge there might be less effect in this difference. As for me I can't comfortably play on hard tail Strats. It was string through body one I tried. Can't judge top loader, have not tried one.
I like both top load & string through body bridges !! I also can't tell any difference between the 2 !! It's really up to personal preference . The statement about Gibson's stop tail bridge system was brilliant !! It really punctuated the point !! Fender's & any other brands tremelo systems also negate this debate in my opinion . The strings never really contact the body at all !!
With hardtails I prefer string through body for two reasons: 1. No unwanted string ringing behind the saddles - like on some stoptails or even tele bridges. 2. On some guitars I am using light 9 or even 8 gauge strings and with those the saddles are more stable with through body design due to higher pressure on them. This is however just a minor thing...
I wish there were toploaders that will hide the ball ends. I like the esthetics of a through body bridge more. Any suggestions on a bridge with holes that take in the balll ends?
I like through body because it hides the string ball ends, and the holes are bigger so when you change strings, you can just jam those suckers in. I like that TOM bridges do the same thing.
To me the only "issue" with a top loaded bridge (specially on bass guitars) is the overlaps of string roll over the edges sometimes is so long (or the model of the bridge is so weird) this could end up on the saddles, plus the action of the saddles when you are rising the string is indeed affected, while on a string-thru the point were the string touches the saddle already is way after this overlaps, so the string is a bit "softer" and allows for a better settle.
I cannot manage to get the string to thread through in a top loader. The string has to feed from behind and slightly underneath the saddle and then turn upwards to go over the top and out towards the neck. Its a seemingly impossible angle, and even pre-bending the string to make the turn does not reliably work. These type bridges have vexed me for years, and I avoid them for that reason.
I wondering if it was more difficult to change the strings on a top loader. Now I see that it is. I wonder if the fancy Schaller top loaders are any easier for changing strings. Does anybody have experience with one of those Schaller top loaders?
As a player of over 40 years I can tell you from experience that the top load gives you slightly looser tension in the strings. I don't think it's imagined. It might have something to do with the length of the string being shorter or something similar. I have multiple guitars that have string through or top load options and I've tried them both and I always find that the top load gives me a little bit more flexibility for bending.
It's not a difference in tension. It's a difference in string stiffness (force required per unit length change). If it changed string tension the guitar would be out of tune. String tension is entirely determined by tuned frequency, scale length, and string mass per unit length (gauge).
Probably has to do with working or dynamic elongation. Longer strings between anchor points gives more. Takes a little more bend if you will, to get a full step bend, than a shorter string. Shorter - Less stretch will make it feel more responsive, gets you a full step up bend quicker. But thats just a guess.
Don't forget that scale length has alot to do with tension for bends. Gibson's have shorter scale length and a through tale bridge. Multiple factors to consider.
@@vw9659 lol come on man. It's called semantics. Definition of "tension": the act of stretching or straining. Yes, we all know that a guitar tuned to a certain pitch will be in tune or out of tune. At least most of us do. :)
@@des_o7935 That has nothing to do with my comment. I was talking about using, for example a Telecaster, by running the strings through the ferrules in the back of the body or by running them through the back of the bridge using the top load on a bridge that provides that option. Scale length has nothing to do with this discussion.
Sometimes changing strings on a string-through-body can be difficult if the strings do not line up easily with the saddles when you put them in the ferrules. Is this any easier on the top loaders? Is it easier to thread the strings through the saddles?
In order for the string to transfer any vibration to the guitar, after the saddle, it would have to be vibrating, but that doesn't make sense. The string break angle is designed to stop any vibration post-saddle, and in fact, if you want sustain then you want all the energy from the vibrating string to be realized between the saddle and the nut, so vibration after the nut is not desirable. The one disadvantage I can see to a neck through design is that the string length from the saddle to the ferrel is much greater and so much more likely to stretch, making it more difficult to get new strings to settle. I'm a new guitar builder (long time guitar player though), so I don't really know what I'm talking about. so I have to ask, does my theory make sense?
Thank you for this. I have a string thru the body bass guitar. I am a beginner and was wondering what type of strings to buy. Should I get extra long strings?
I have a point ! I put the strings through 6 drilled holes in a 1/8” thick round bell brass plate on the back of the guitar , the ball ends sit on the brass and go through the whole thickness of the body over the bridge to the tuners . I found it had a lot of sustain ! The ball ends up against my body kinda sux but I could of machined it better to sink the heads
I would simply say that it depends on the design and quality of the top loading bridge. My meager experience comes from a top loading Squier Bullet Strat. Man, that was the buzziest, deadest sounding guitar I ever heard. I wound up drilling the bridge and body out and installing Tele string ferrules in it. That made the guitar come alive. Now, it might have had the same thing happen if I bought an expensive bridge with offset intonation screws. In other words, the strings do not load right under the intonation screw. Anyway, after the experience of before and after on my cheap Squier, I prefer string through body setups.
Does it make a difference for string bending if the strings are through body or top loader? I mean... on strats with a reversed headstock, some people say there's a perceptible difference when bending strings because of the increased lenght. Max Solo Music made a comparison video and there was a subtle difference in tone. I think string through body sounded tighter and top loader sounded fuzzier.
With guitar I totally agree, unless in the hole through the body, the string has the ability to vibrate in the cavity, then IIT would lower sustain. With a stop tailpiece type of guitar, the longer the distance between bridge and tailpiece causes more sympathetic vibration in that length of string, and those sympathetic vibrations are fed by the guitar strings in front of the bridge, therefore lessening the strings main vibration. With a strat, using a small block in the tremolo, more string vibration is transmitted to the springs and the small block will also vibrate to some minor amount, therefore a heavy brass block (than does not ring when you tap it) will transfer less vibration to the springs, therefore more sustain. In the Archery industry, they use vibration transference to make you now function more accurately, by screwing a long rod to the centre of the bow with a weight on the end, when an arrow is released, the bow starts to vibrate, it is then transferred along thehe rod to the weight on the end, the bow vibrates a lot less because the rod and weight (springs and excess string length) are absorbing the vibration. In a bow you want less vibration or sustain, as the bows string becomes more stable as it leaves the bow, the bow vibrates less making the arrow flight more accurate.
Basically there is no perceivable difference. As far as the weights in archery go, I think you might be wrong there. As far as I am aware the weights are not designed to stop vibration. When we lose and arrow from a recurve bow the string is slightly off to one side. This is because the string has to get around the fingers. This applies force to the bow making the bow twist. The role of the weights is to slow down the action of this force. The weights being far from the bow means they require some force and time to move them. The idea is that by the time the force moves the weights (and there fore the bow) the arrow is clear. To be clear they do not eliminate the force they just slow it down.
Top loader can reduce the tension of higher gauge of strings? I wanna put 10/52 strings on my strat (my strat has tremolo bridge but I have a hard tail to change and I don't know if the hole will be covered but that's another story) I tried them on my tele with tune o matic bridge and I feel so hard to play for the high tension and I don't know if the same can happen to my strat when I change the bridge for the top loader, I only wanna know if I can put higher gauge strings or stay with the regular gauge
I have several builds under my belt. One was a string-through with a Hipshot bridge. A friend had me build a 5 string for open G with a tun-o-matic with string-through rather than a stoptail. That was fun! But my favorite bridge is a $12 hardtail top-load from GFS. (Squire 51)
Top loader has slightly less string tension and makes bending a bit easier, which I prefer. A string-through is more percussive, ideal for people that don't bend. Gibson's feel slinkier because of the adjustable stop bar tailpiece and shallower break-angle of the strings. I can definitely feel the difference in tension of a high or low tailpiece.
I would assume all the vibrations end at the contact point on the saddles. On acoustics I can understand the difference. There are top loading bridges and the string pull is different and it makes a difference because it’s just glue holding the bridge in place. I’ve been playing electric guitar for almost 40 years and the only thing that seems to makes a significant difference in tone is the pickups. I’ve heard LPs that sound like Strats and visa versa.
Yes, the vibration for the most part would end at the contact point..think for example when you have a moving contact point..like on a slide guitar..but the firmer the contact point, the more energy reflects back into the string for increased sustain. .and more so when the contact point has a lot of mass compared to the strings.
how to get rid of humming and buzzing sound, because I didn't connect the ground wire to bridge with my diy electric acoustic guitar, mean I put the electric guitar pickup on acoustic guitar, pls help me
I've always been of the opinion that the contact point of the string, which is the saddle, is where the vibration occurs and enters the body of the guitar and thus it makes no difference where the ball end of the string is attached as far as tone is concerned. I do think that the length of string behind the bridge to the ball end makes a difference in how stiff the guitar feels as far as bending strings goes.
True...but string tension can be altered at the machine head with more windings to create more tension. The scale length of the string is exactly the same, from the bridge to nut...so the point of string contact is exactly the same. The theory a string through creates more tension in the string is another myth...it just changes the area of string where the tension is placed.
There are plenty guitar techs and luthiers who say the string through the body giving more sustain is a myth. A solid body especially one that been painted and lacquered or had a finish applied to the body will not resonate like an acoustic guitar. The pickups respond to the strings when they are struck, and come into contact with the magnetic field of the pickups. The signal is then controlled by the volume and tone controls on the guitar and sent to the amp. If there is any difference it's very very minimal.
I always wondered why Leo Fender used the string through method on the Telecaster. It most cost more than a top loader to produce and Leo wasn’t known for spending unnecessary money and time. I can only imagine that he thought it added some tonal or stability advantage although the Tele bridge is pretty firmly fixed to the body. I personally prefer the lop loader Tele bridge as it seems to make the guitar feel a bit more slinky and is easier to change strings.
Top load saddles are much higher. If you like low action, the saddles may end up pointing down at an awkward angle with the grub screws sticking way out. It really depends on how deep the neck is set in the pocket. But my hardtail Mustangs had to be converted from the top-load Tele style to vintage Strat string-through bridges.
It’s a fact that the bridge itself stops and absorbs the very largest part of the strings vibrations, so what’s left may be insignificant. I still remember when back in the late 70ies ppl were talking about the supposed lack of sustain of bolt-on guitars compared to set-in and neck-through contructions; being a big fan of Pink Floyd, I didn’t understand what they meant because I couldn’t hear any “lack of sustain” in Gilmore’s guitar, or any other Strat player for what matters. Guitarworld is full of myths...
Sir, may I ask a question, I’m a beginner and I’ve been playing acoustic guitar for more than one year now. I want to play an electric guitar. Please help me decide on what kind guitar I will buy, here are the list: 1) Yamaha Pacifica 012 HSS pickup, USD207. 2) Yamaha EG112GPII, HSH pickup, USD260 - with free GA15 amplifier 15w, Gig bag, strap, etc. 3) Severo Les Paul model electric guitar USD163.
A tuneomatic bridge requires a neck that is installed at an angle. The neck on a Stratocaster is not installed at an angle. The work necessary to fill the tremolo cavities and shim the neck at the required angle should encourage you to leave that Strat alone.
It's nice with a toploader if you have a minor adjustment to make where you may need to remove a string or two, or maybe all of them to get to a pot or switch, especially when you have brand new strings on the guitar. It's fun trying to the thread that pig-ass string through the body. I'd say the difference in tone and resonance is far to minuscule for my ears...I've got two telecaster bodies in my shop right now, both from the same slab of maple. I'm going to do one of each and compare the results. That will at least solve the question in my mind and I don't really care what anybody else thinks since I'm the only one who suffers through my playing!
I dunno why, but I just love string through the body setups, and the resulting higher tunomatic bridge type on es335’s to rest my hand and palm mute. I’m hoping I can convert this Strat I got to that. It came with a Floyd Rose which I don’t want, but the guitar was too good to pass up. I sure feel like my strings are at least more stable through the body-tone or not.
Any guitars I get, I try to make sure I can put a wraparound bridge on it because of the ease of string change. Which ever hard tail bridge is easier I’ll get! I hate changing strings through the body as well
I'm building my first guitar - a Tele style. I was just going to use a top load bridge as I am worried about not getting the string through holes straight. What do you thinks?
Just search for 2-3 videos that show you how to get the holes right if you that is what you want. Try it on another piece of wood to test your approach and think about the steps you take.
Do you have a drill press? Here's what I did for string through top and back ferrules, I used a hardtail bridge's holes to drill out the top holes as if it were a template by taping it down and using a drill press to drill out the six holes half way through the guitar. Then I put down a special piece of mdf on the drill press table that has an indexing pin in the center of it that fits perfectly into the guitars top holes and I line up a forstner bit in the drill presses chuck with the pin on the table and clamp the mdf down to keep it stable. I then put the guitar face down on the mdf and place the indexing pin in to each of the six top holes and the drill presses chuck will be perfectly lined up with the front holes, now drill to the right depth with your forstner bit. Here is a great video, do this! ua-cam.com/video/YIHFFJ0Bdz0/v-deo.html
I think string through bridges are a big hassle, both to use and install. I’m a DIYer, so I don’t have as much experience as a lot of people. I liked this video. It did answer that question for me.
Well.... that's one thing... another one, perhaps more important,is the length of the strings....the higher the length,the bigger the tension,in order for the strings to be tuned! So,a top loader bridge, provides a smaller length.... It's like something the difference between a Stratocaster and a Gibson,but in a lower level ‼️
I think I can hear a difference in tone in the highest 3 strings. I don't notice it with the wound strings, but the others seem to have a plinky sound to me. Nothing a little gain and a good pedal can't take care of though. I suppose it could be the saddles. Perhaps I need to look at changing those before I start drilling holes and installing string ferrules.
Nice vid! For tuneomatics I'm confident it affects tone, since I enlarged the afterlenght of my Gretsch to the 1/6 used in violin families and to me tone and sustain improved . Just mute the afterlenght to check it. The string vibrates after the bridge more freely (I also have a roller bridge on a Hardtail) than I an short or wraparound bridge, thus lasting longer vibration and changing tone because of that notes also vibrating in the afterlenght. I don't know if swapping the tremolo of a Yamaha for a Schaller 3D-6... Since I read that the tremolo system springs help sustain and Tone. But I rather a Hardtail for my bendings and I don't use a tremolo. What would you suggest?
@@HighlineGuitars you mentioned that tune o matic style Guitars sound good as Les Paul and that is a top loading bridge.... But the difference with a Tele toploading or a wraparound bridge is that there is quite a piece of string after the saddle to the tailstop. I made it longer on my Gretsch which had a funky tailstop that came from the strap screw, but made the afterlenght shorter than 1/6 of the string which is the proportion found in violin families. I Bought a tailstop and drilled it but put it at 1/6 which is way more far than Gibson or Gretsch standard placing. I think that reduces the stress on the string since there's more material streching and makes it ressonate much bigger. They told me it was non important but just muting the afterlenght with duct tape clearly kills the sound and is highly noticeable. In fact researching I found that violin family instrument players change the tailstop to affect tone and that there are even pieces to fine tune the afterlenght of each string. I meant that toploaders the string ends right in the saddle or very very short to ring and make any difference. Don't know if there's any free resonance in the passthrough strings, I guess not since between the Ball end and the saddle there's not much string piece. For the Yamaha I don't know if to put A schaller roller toploader, or just Block the tremolo and try muting the springs and replace graph saddles. I'm more interesed in building a compact travel guitar and checking about toploading bridges I surely will go for that system to keep the things as simple as possible. I also don't think it would made much difference if the string is that short and how many resonance is passed to the body... Maybe depends on the screws and bridge material, but I'm not that expert. Kind regards
If the tone of the string is determined between the saddle and the nut then string through or top loader would not matter at all. I do wonder about there being a node point "the saddle" on a string with minimal slack (the top loader) versus a string with longer slack (the through body.) I have noticed a difference in tone with trapeze tailpieces with floating bridges which have plenty of slack after the node point. Just curious if anyone has any ideas about this. Thanks.
It's my absolute favorite tool in my shop. If it broke and for some reason, I couldn't fix it, I would quit building guitars rather than go back to the old school approach to making them.
I think it's all a tension issue and it makes difference between guitars affected also by the headstock angle. Cannot say in a scientific way but it's something we have to feel by hand. I have a hardtail bridge guitar that has the the both ways and I can test between them. For me, in that *specific guitar*, the strings through body sounds and feels worse, less sustain and more tension. In a Telecaster model I have, the strings through body feels just perfect. I'm pretty sure this feel vary from each guitar.
Tone/Sustain are open to subjective interpretation. Another consideration is playability as a function of string tension - longer string for the through-the-body bridge means higher tension on the string to bring it to tune = a little more resistance to bending. But back to tone - arguable tonal/attack difference with the reduced string tension from the top loader. Some say the Tele twang, for example, is in part a function of that added string tension, relative to a top loader. No experience, just passing on what I've read. I have a G&L Asat Special with Leo Fender's Saddle Lock bridge - it's a top loader, but sits atop a hidden wedge that's driven into the body to transmit the string vibration, which apparently Leo felt was important enough to include, though that doesn't address the string length/tension issue, assuming it is an issue. Apparently, Leo didn't think so.
It is "common knowledge" (not sure if it is correct or not) that there is a difference in perceived tension while bending strings between top loaders (easier to bend) vs through body. Same as doing "top wrap" for Gibson style tail pieces. It would be an interesting idea for a show to test this out. You just need a t-style guitar with a bridge that supports both top loading and through body, so you can test tension and sustain on the same guitar with the same types of strings.
I find the difference not tone at all. The guitar vibrates more with the string-through which feels different. That can feel more interactive. Unless you don’t want that vibration. Sometimes I don’t and the string-through can be a hassle. Depends on my mood.
Same here, im 68 yrs old and have heard quite a few of both types in my life, could never hear a lick of difference at all, everyone that tells me they can, i think they just like to hear themselves talk.
I'm getting ready to try top load on a particular Tele because it plays sooo stiff. Not sure why since I have other Teles that are fine. Love this one but it is murder on the hands. I'm thinking top loads should help due to a shallower break angle behind saddles.
I *think* it's because the length is shorter (missing the length thru the body) that the strings feel looser. If that's not it, I hope someone will tell me the right answer.
Hi guys, I'm using THRU-BODY STRINGS (purchased without thinking about the meaning of T.B.) on a TOP-LOADED bridge Does anybody know if that could be a problem. I'm not having any "issue", so far so good, but I was wondering and couldn't find answers. (Stings Model: LaBella Deep Talkin' Bass 760FS -TB - Standard) (Bass Model: Fender Player Precision PF PWT)
Vibrations are not picked up by pickups.....they are magnetic pickups. String through makes the string longer that is the main difference. The string would need more tension on it to be in tune and therefore it would be a little stiffer.
I was hoping to find some recommendations here, but it was all theory (which is good, I guess). Does anybody have any ideas on good options? The only toploader bridge I can find is the Golden Age. I wonder if there are other options.
In the modern era, it is tough to make recommendations because the market changes too often. The recommendations I would have made for this video 3 years ago would likely be no longer valid. Instead of responding to your comment, I would be responding to dozens of others complaining that my recommendations are no longer around.
It's all about transmissibility. When we do MIL-STD-810 vibration testing on electronic weapons systems we design a fixture that maximizes stiffness, doesn't induce its own resonances, and ensures a 1:1 transmissibility from the exciter to the unit under test. But once you near 1:1 it cannot be further improved upon in any practical sense.
I would respectfully disagree. Toploader guitars don't sound worse than string through, but they do sound a little different - a bit thinner and more spanky, if you will. Also the Les Paul reference is a bit off the mark, since the significant mass of the body and the bridge/ tailpiece contributes massively to its sound. A better comparison would be: does a toploader tele sound different to a string through tele? I would argue that it does. I love your videos though, Chris, and have learned lots from you. Thanks for making them.
I think the only thing that really matters is the bridge material and the number of string contacts, the less the better they say for stability and Sustain. I have all string thrus and let me tell ya they can be ANNOYING when the string won’t go through hahaha
A top-loader has a shorter string length than a string-through. For argument's sake, a Telecaster has a 1 3/4" body, so you are adding about that much extra string. Some say that the extra length of string makes a difference, or feels different, when doing bends. Why? Because you are stretching about 27" of string with a string-through compared to 25 (whichever scale length plus the short distance behind the saddle). The physics is undeniable with 2" more string . . . the feel of having to stretch 2" more string is debatable . . . the sound difference considering identical distances saddle, fret, to nut . . . even more debatable. In the end, the customer/client may have their own feelings/experience and that will determine which bridge.
And if the guitar body is resting against any part of your body, the vibration is instantly muted.
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In my Fender Jazz 🅱️ass I have a bridge with both options, and in this 🅱️ass it is very easilu noticeable difference in sustain depending which way the strings are installed. However I still think it is not the through body deal that is the mother reason for this happening. I would argue and theorize that it is more to do with the angle the strings cross the bridge, because the biggest difference in contact point is there. There are some examples of the same effect when you over wrap the strings to a les paul vs. under wrap...
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To add, this is what I mean by this ua-cam.com/video/GaJjjVKcXJM/v-deo.html
Guitars with top loading bridges, especially in a 25.5” or longer scale length, play better. The shorter and more direct string path through the bridge yields lower string tension. This isn’t theory, I have tested it more times than I can count.
It's not tension. It's a string stiffness difference you feel (force required per unit length change => bend feel). String tension is entirely determined by tuned frequency, scale length, and string mass per unit length (gauge). The bridge type doesn't change any of those.
Its definitely not a theory, its a hypothesis at best and one I disagree with. Its not you. There are so many comments from people in the comments that are complete fiction. The string can be 15 miles long. The only part that matters is the part between the saddle and the nut.
The strings may get fed through the body but the ballend ends up right against the metal plate about 1/3 inch of bridge-metal away from where it enters if it is back loaded. The string doesn't magically remember that it had passed through the body of the guitar in order to get there. The actual place the ballends end up is almost the same exact place. I call shenenigans.
Have to say that I agree. I have one tele that is top loading and one that is string through. No difference as far as I can tell. All thou I still prefer the string through.
And all that string vibration on a top loader is transferred through the bridge, the screws holding it down to the top and, in the example you show, through the base plate. In a String through, its really only the ball end contacting the ferrules that are in contact with the body. Of course you still have the bridge, its base plate and the string vibration through that too - but generally, the string inside the body doesn't actually touch the wood - its just the ferrules... In general, I prefer top loading as I find it easier for restringing.
Shouldn't "sustain" and "vibration transfer to the body" be polar opposites? Any transfer of energy OUT of the string means the energy of the string itself (which determines its vibration amplitude) decays faster and there is less sustain. It seems required by physics that there is a tradeoff (all else equal!!!) between acoustic volume and sustain. Luckily, an electric guitar doesn't need to have any acoustic volume so can maximize the tradeoff in favour of sustain (in theory). In practice, even the magnetic pickups extract energy from the strings to some extent, and there are probably tradeoffs there too. So I want a bridge on my electrics that transfers as little vibration to the body as is possible. In theory, this should have more sustain. As far as "tone", I suppose that depending on the frequency response of the coupling between the bridge and the string, some frequencies may decay more quickly, which may affect the tone. But I would prefer a guitar that picks up the strings as faithfully as possible. If I want any particular frequency response, I can just EQ it. That being said I agree that the difference in this case is negligible. There are surely much more significant factors.
Oh you know what, I think I might have an actual good reason for string through, not for solid, but for a hollow body electric guitar, what I'm planning to build I could imagine having the string tension on the bridge would have a bigger sideways pull on the bridge, opposed to having it string through the body, even to the back of the guitar, which would have to be thick enough for it though. So not at all for sound, but to relieve sideways tension maybe?
I think this is a similar debate to the tone wood one. IMO, the tone on an electric comes 99% from the pickups/amp, which comes from the strings vibrating, not the wood itself vibrating. So whether or not strings would go trough the body, doesn’t matter to me. It may affect maybe 1% of the tone, but even if it did, it’s so minor that tweaking your amp settings could easily counter act that effect
For me, the only difference in putting strings through the body vs through the back of the bridge is the difference in string angle and force that is pushing the string to the saddle, which in top loaded aproach may result in loosening of a screws used to set up strings action and that may cause buzzing/rattling in the sadle and that's basically it.
Ya know, I was in the same camp as you (and when it comes to the BODY, I still am), but I found a great deal on an 80s Fender Strat neck with a rosewood fretboard, so I took the maple-board neck off of my Squier 50s Classic Vibe and bolted the rosewood one on, and it's definitely a lot smoother/warmer/less pokey than the maple board. Conversely, I ordered a solid mahogany Strat body from Warmoth and swapped everything over from my Classic Vibe. Plugged it in and didn't notice even a slight change in tone. So, in my own personal experience, body wood hasn't made a difference, but the fretboard wood has 🤷♂️
@@joojoosasa there are too many variables as i am learning. were those frets on both the maple and rosewood the same kind of frets? I definitely agree about the neck being the most important, I am still new and learning but playing around at guitar stores the neck is the most obvious tone changer when playing low-gain, low-volume, and on the same amp. the indian laurel necks on squiers surprised me with being as comfy as it is
To me it's strings effecting the tone first and foremost, due to the variance in magnetic reactivity of the materials used, the core to wound ratio(for a wound string), the gauge and the tension the string is under. There can be such huge variance, from monel, SS, typical steel, etc. That's primary, then the further potentially massive variance of the pickups, tone controls, and amp. Yeah, 100% agree on the wood, it's only relevant from a tone perspective in so much as it just needing to be at least as stiff as the neck.
%100
In my opinion, all the string's energy is transferred at the first contact point on the saddle. What happens after that (from there to the ball end) doesn't matter for tone or sustain on a solid-body electric.
Mechanically, anchoring to the back of the guitar (string-through) will be stronger. However, in practice, the screws on top-loader are more than enough, and the additional strength of the string-through is superfluous.
So, bottom line: whichever you find easier to use. It's more important that there aren't any rattles in the saddles.
not quite. if there is a reasonable area of string behind the bridge then sympathetic vibrations can occur. Purely based on experience, the shallower the break angle the more these sympathetic vibrations can be heard - it can almost sound like reverb. So it does impact tone. Whether those sympathetic vibrations are "felt" by the main vibrating area of the string enough to affect how it sustains, I don't know.
In theory a top-load is trying to pull the bridge off the body, while a string-through is forcing the bridge down against the body.
The biggest difference to me is feel. A top load feels more "slinky" to me. I prefer that feel. It's all ice cream though. Every choice is a flavour we choose based on our likes. Thank you for pointing out that LPs and SGs are top loads. I find that tidbit get missed so often in this discussion and goes a long way to help my customers understand that top load is not actually inferior, just different. Subscribed! Looking forward to more content!
In my opinion, feel is the single most important factor when choosing a guitar. You can change the look and tone, but feel is much harder to safely change.
Your post is interesting to me. I noticed the longer the string the more slinky it is. I tune down a full step (2 frets) so it is more slinky and I use big string gauges to try to make up for it. I use a string through tele and a strat with tremelo block and my strat having longer strings is more slinky to me.
As for the string vibration, it dies after the bridge, doesn't matter anyway, pickups is what gives you the tone in an electric guitar. There is an awesome video of a dude in Nashville proving it. You can have the strings on a guitar, a 2 x 4 and in the open air with a pickup underneath, makes no difference in sound on an electric guitar, none. That tone wood is ok for acoustic, but not electric.
I'm already subbed but I just gotta say, every time I do a youtube search for something I wanna know about that is kicking around in my head, your vids come up and they are always really good.
Awesome! Thank you!
I think tuning stability may be better with the top loader due to s straighter and more simple string path.
You are incorrect
@@cmurduh1 Care to elaborate as to why?
@@barklordofthesith2997 basically because of strain on the saddles. the string also has less freedom to move when it is through body. I am assuming if you install your bridge correctly and the saddles and screws are great, then no, he is not incorrect, and this guy probably just wanted to say that, but as many others said it seems top loaders tend to want to pulled off the body, while through body's are being pulling down into the body.
I agree.
Solid bodies don’t create sustain. Any energy leaving the string via vibrations transferred to the body is lost as acoustic energy (and heat). So it’s removing energy from the string, which reduces sustain.
This is why a body with a lot of mass, like a Les Paul, has such good sustain. Most of the energy of the vibrating string is staying in the string. You get long sustain and very little acoustic output.
In contrast, look at a banjo; almost all the energy of the vibrating string is converted to driving the drum head. You get a loud acoustic output, but almost zero sustain.
Personally I don’t find that string through bridges add anything. But I do make string through guitars.
Hi you.
I am changing my original bridge for a hardtail on my Squier Fat Strat (the original is not of very good quality and it is difficult to keep it tuned in open G and without the sixth string) and your tutorials were very useful to me.
Above all because of the simplicity and pragmatism of the explanation.
Thank you so much!!!!!
Hug from Argentina.
i have a tele that can go either way, the top load strings feels a bit more slinky.. sound wise you're not gonna notice
This was my understanding, it's more feel than tone.
That's what I was going to post is that maybe a touch easier to bend...hence slinkier
when someone listens to a song.... they don't care. It's the melodic content that makes someone feel something special.
I totally agree with you it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in tone just aesthetics. It's a marketing ploy, you get some company like Gibson saying and telling everyone you gotta have this doohickey for the best tone and then suddenly it becomes the gospel.
I have had many instruments, guitars and bass guitars which had dual-loading bridges. Any difference is completely imperceptible.
Yup. The tonal difference is so tiny that you would never tell the difference. It’s like the poly vs nitro debate. Really, imho, the ones that are concerned so much about tone are the ones who cannot play and try to blame it on the guitar rather than them not practicing.
Im glad you said that...most of these tone experts can barly play 5 bar chords. No amount of money or snake oil you throw at a guitar, will make you a better player. A great player can make a cheap guitar sound fantastic.
Tune-o-matic string through setups are my favourite. Best of both worlds.
I agree with you on all points. I've had thru body and top loading Tele's. The most difference in the sound of them was the pickups, IMHO. Am currently building a HT Strat, will be thru body, but only because the holes are already there.
It’s what I always thought but hearing it from a professional means I’ll be using a top loader on my first build! Thanks for the time and money I get back!
A string through bridge is, because of how it works, pushed more into the body cause the string comes out and over the saddle, so the pressure on the bridge is DOWN.
A top loader has a pressure the lifts the back of the bridge off of the body cause the strings pull it straight towards the neck, trying to pry it off.
That's why people often opt for the string through and mention sustain - the body is not going anywhere, it's a giant slab of wood and the bridge get even more pushed into the body, which should add to the sustain. If you have a bridge that keeps wanting to pry off of the body (a top loader), you're going to (in theory) have just the front of the bridge pushed into the body, so less surface, less sustain.
How much and can you feel the difference with all the electronics, amps, pedals, PAs.. I have no idea.
I use a string through cause I like how it works and puts less strain on the bridge screws, they're there to, basically, just keep it from moving a bit.
On a top loader, you better screw them in tight.
actually less surface contact = more sustain. For sustain, in fact, you don't want transference of vibration to the body - you want to keep it all in the string. This is a common mistake among guitar players. That's why the contact point of the bridge saddles is very small.
Contact points will ALWAYS be saddle breakover and nut seat and what is in contact from THAT point.... correct ? So any string beyond that is inert to the note IMO.
I am commenting to assist in my thinking. if you could stretch a string to pitch with nothing touching it (who knows make something up, magic, magnets etc..) would it be different than something at each end holding it in place ?
It makes about the same difference as the colour! It's just perception and which poundland experts you choose to listen to
Agree 100% Chris. It's about perceived value because so many folks have drank the coolaid about solid body guitars being tone wood. 1 3/4" blocks of wood really don't vibrate. Now a neck might vibrate.
I don't subscribe to the 'tonewood' stupidity nor do I believe there is any difference between through and top loading, but I do not understand how you can say 1 3/4" blocks of wood (by which i take you to mean the body of an electric guitar) don't vibrate.
When I strum a chord on a solid body electric guitar I can feel the body vibrating. Press your ear against the body and you can hear the vibrations from the strings transmitted through the wood. These vibrations do contribute to the overall sound. Consider that even when the vibrations of the strings are so small they are not easily visible, they can still be clearly heard via the pickups. The strings do not vibrate in relation to pickups that are somehow mounted to a fixed point is space. The pickups are mounted on the body. If the body vibrates then so do the pickups. Therefore the output signal from the guitar is the result of the relative vibration of both the strings and the pickup.
Terry Relph-Knight, there may be some slight vibration in the wood but not in the audible sense. Pickups don’t create sound by vibrating but by the interference of the metallic string disturbing the magnetic field of the pickups. Although I think we may be trying to say the same thing.
@@jonahguitarguy But that is my point, we are dealing with slight vibrations. As I said very small vibrations are clearly audible from the amplifier and even directly by ear. Play an electric guitar unplugged and you can still hear it and that is not because of the air being moved directly by the strings. The sound you hear is the air being moved by the vibrating body. The vibrations of the body, although smaller than string vibration are still significant. If you tap on the body of a solid electric guitar those taps are audible from the amplifier. Whether the strings move in relation to the pickup, or the pickup moves in relation to the strings, that movement will still be translated into the signal voltage across the ends of the pickup coil. Current is induced in the pickup coil when there is a change in the magnetic field around the coil. The permanent magnets in the pickup magnetise the strings. If the strings do not move, but the pickup does, a changing current is still induced in the coil because the coil is moving through the field from the strings. If the strings and the pickup are both moving then both of those movements contribute to the signal current in the coil.
Terry Relph-Knight, very good logic my friend. I appreciate your insight.
Thank you for your information! So interesting. A lot of expensive bass guitars uses Top Loader design.
I feel some "magic" playing feeling in Stratocaster tremolo bridge, and I think It have to do with part of the string from the saddle to the end.
Also in Telecaster guitars I think that part of the twangy playing feel has to do something with string through body bridge design.
But In case of hardtail strat bridge there might be less effect in this difference.
As for me I can't comfortably play on hard tail Strats. It was string through body one I tried. Can't judge top loader, have not tried one.
I like both top load & string through body bridges !! I also can't tell any difference between the 2 !! It's really up to personal preference . The statement about Gibson's stop tail bridge system was brilliant !! It really punctuated the point !! Fender's & any other brands tremelo systems also negate this debate in my opinion . The strings never really contact the body at all !!
yeah, but gibson uses always humbuckers...
With hardtails I prefer string through body for two reasons:
1. No unwanted string ringing behind the saddles - like on some stoptails or even tele bridges.
2. On some guitars I am using light 9 or even 8 gauge strings and with those the saddles are more stable with through body design due to higher pressure on them. This is however just a minor thing...
I wish there were toploaders that will hide the ball ends. I like the esthetics of a through body bridge more.
Any suggestions on a bridge with holes that take in the balll ends?
Schaller 3D-6
I wonder if using a top loader results in less broken strings? 🤔Seems to be the case with my top loading hardtail Squier Strat.🎸
I like through body because it hides the string ball ends, and the holes are bigger so when you change strings, you can just jam those suckers in. I like that TOM bridges do the same thing.
To me the only "issue" with a top loaded bridge (specially on bass guitars) is the overlaps of string roll over the edges sometimes is so long (or the model of the bridge is so weird) this could end up on the saddles, plus the action of the saddles when you are rising the string is indeed affected, while on a string-thru the point were the string touches the saddle already is way after this overlaps, so the string is a bit "softer" and allows for a better settle.
I cannot manage to get the string to thread through in a top loader. The string has to feed from behind and slightly underneath the saddle and then turn upwards to go over the top and out towards the neck. Its a seemingly impossible angle, and even pre-bending the string to make the turn does not reliably work. These type bridges have vexed me for years, and I avoid them for that reason.
I wondering if it was more difficult to change the strings on a top loader. Now I see that it is. I wonder if the fancy Schaller top loaders are any easier for changing strings. Does anybody have experience with one of those Schaller top loaders?
As a player of over 40 years I can tell you from experience that the top load gives you slightly looser tension in the strings. I don't think it's imagined. It might have something to do with the length of the string being shorter or something similar. I have multiple guitars that have string through or top load options and I've tried them both and I always find that the top load gives me a little bit more flexibility for bending.
It's not a difference in tension. It's a difference in string stiffness (force required per unit length change). If it changed string tension the guitar would be out of tune. String tension is entirely determined by tuned frequency, scale length, and string mass per unit length (gauge).
Probably has to do with working or dynamic elongation. Longer strings between anchor points gives more. Takes a little more bend if you will, to get a full step bend, than a shorter string. Shorter - Less stretch will make it feel more responsive, gets you a full step up bend quicker. But thats just a guess.
Don't forget that scale length has alot to do with tension for bends. Gibson's have shorter scale length and a through tale bridge. Multiple factors to consider.
@@vw9659 lol come on man. It's called semantics. Definition of "tension": the act of stretching or straining. Yes, we all know that a guitar tuned to a certain pitch will be in tune or out of tune. At least most of us do. :)
@@des_o7935 That has nothing to do with my comment. I was talking about using, for example a Telecaster, by running the strings through the ferrules in the back of the body or by running them through the back of the bridge using the top load on a bridge that provides that option. Scale length has nothing to do with this discussion.
Sometimes changing strings on a string-through-body can be difficult if the strings do not line up easily with the saddles when you put them in the ferrules. Is this any easier on the top loaders? Is it easier to thread the strings through the saddles?
No.
Ok.
In order for the string to transfer any vibration to the guitar, after the saddle, it would have to be vibrating, but that doesn't make sense. The string break angle is designed to stop any vibration post-saddle, and in fact, if you want sustain then you want all the energy from the vibrating string to be realized between the saddle and the nut, so vibration after the nut is not desirable. The one disadvantage I can see to a neck through design is that the string length from the saddle to the ferrel is much greater and so much more likely to stretch, making it more difficult to get new strings to settle. I'm a new guitar builder (long time guitar player though), so I don't really know what I'm talking about. so I have to ask, does my theory make sense?
You've nailed it.
Thank you for this. I have a string thru the body bass guitar. I am a beginner and was wondering what type of strings to buy. Should I get extra long strings?
Go long.
That was very straight to the point.
Thank you for addressing this, Chris!
Does a hipshot bridge nullify the need for machine heads? Thinking about modifying my traveler electric guitar
hipshotproducts.com/collections/guitar-headless
What i heard is that the top loaders are smoother to play due to the string break angle at the saddle. What do you think?
In my experience there’s not much difference. The string is still coming up through the saddle at the same angle
They bend easier, but it's not a massive difference. It's nothing compared to going down a string gauge.
Chris, do you find a difference in string tension between the two? I completely agree with your assessment of tone.
Probably the only thing....and very little tone difference between trem and hard tail Strats
I have a point ! I put the strings through 6 drilled holes in a 1/8” thick round bell brass plate on the back of the guitar , the ball ends sit on the brass and go through the whole thickness of the body over the bridge to the tuners . I found it had a lot of sustain ! The ball ends up against my body kinda sux but I could of machined it better to sink the heads
Don't forget to consider all of the other factors that determine sustain.
I would simply say that it depends on the design and quality of the top loading bridge. My meager experience comes from a top loading Squier Bullet Strat. Man, that was the buzziest, deadest sounding guitar I ever heard. I wound up drilling the bridge and body out and installing Tele string ferrules in it. That made the guitar come alive.
Now, it might have had the same thing happen if I bought an expensive bridge with offset intonation screws. In other words, the strings do not load right under the intonation screw. Anyway, after the experience of before and after on my cheap Squier, I prefer string through body setups.
Does it make a difference for string bending if the strings are through body or top loader?
I mean... on strats with a reversed headstock, some people say there's a perceptible difference when bending strings because of the increased lenght.
Max Solo Music made a comparison video and there was a subtle difference in tone. I think string through body sounded tighter and top loader sounded fuzzier.
I’ll take the top loader for playability they feel more slinky
With guitar I totally agree, unless in the hole through the body, the string has the ability to vibrate in the cavity, then IIT would lower sustain. With a stop tailpiece type of guitar, the longer the distance between bridge and tailpiece causes more sympathetic vibration in that length of string, and those sympathetic vibrations are fed by the guitar strings in front of the bridge, therefore lessening the strings main vibration. With a strat, using a small block in the tremolo, more string vibration is transmitted to the springs and the small block will also vibrate to some minor amount, therefore a heavy brass block (than does not ring when you tap it) will transfer less vibration to the springs, therefore more sustain. In the Archery industry, they use vibration transference to make you now function more accurately, by screwing a long rod to the centre of the bow with a weight on the end, when an arrow is released, the bow starts to vibrate, it is then transferred along thehe rod to the weight on the end, the bow vibrates a lot less because the rod and weight (springs and excess string length) are absorbing the vibration. In a bow you want less vibration or sustain, as the bows string becomes more stable as it leaves the bow, the bow vibrates less making the arrow flight more accurate.
Basically there is no perceivable difference. As far as the weights in archery go, I think you might be wrong there. As far as I am aware the weights are not designed to stop vibration. When we lose and arrow from a recurve bow the string is slightly off to one side. This is because the string has to get around the fingers. This applies force to the bow making the bow twist. The role of the weights is to slow down the action of this force. The weights being far from the bow means they require some force and time to move them. The idea is that by the time the force moves the weights (and there fore the bow) the arrow is clear. To be clear they do not eliminate the force they just slow it down.
Top loader can reduce the tension of higher gauge of strings? I wanna put 10/52 strings on my strat (my strat has tremolo bridge but I have a hard tail to change and I don't know if the hole will be covered but that's another story) I tried them on my tele with tune o matic bridge and I feel so hard to play for the high tension and I don't know if the same can happen to my strat when I change the bridge for the top loader, I only wanna know if I can put higher gauge strings or stay with the regular gauge
Try using a lighter gauge set of strings.
What about a floating tremlo wouldn't it take away the vibration theroy?
No.
I have several builds under my belt. One was a string-through with a Hipshot bridge. A friend had me build a 5 string for open G with a tun-o-matic with string-through rather than a stoptail. That was fun! But my favorite bridge is a $12 hardtail top-load from GFS. (Squire 51)
Top loader has slightly less string tension and makes bending a bit easier, which I prefer. A string-through is more percussive, ideal for people that don't bend. Gibson's feel slinkier because of the adjustable stop bar tailpiece and shallower break-angle of the strings. I can definitely feel the difference in tension of a high or low tailpiece.
Gibson feels slinkier because of the shorter scale length.
@@BryanClark-gk6ie Partially true. I believe the bridge type and break angle plays a bigger part in string tension.
I would assume all the vibrations end at the contact point on the saddles. On acoustics I can understand the difference. There are top loading bridges and the string pull is different and it makes a difference because it’s just glue holding the bridge in place.
I’ve been playing electric guitar for almost 40 years and the only thing that seems to makes a significant difference in tone is the pickups. I’ve heard LPs that sound like Strats and visa versa.
Yes, the vibration for the most part would end at the contact point..think for example when you have a moving contact point..like on a slide guitar..but the firmer the contact point, the more energy reflects back into the string for increased sustain. .and more so when the contact point has a lot of mass compared to the strings.
The question that I have though is does it change the way the strings feel when bending notes?
Probably. Fortunately, you can try different kinds of strings or different gauges to dial in the feel.
It is said that through-body makes bending a bit harder (as does longer scale length).
how to get rid of humming and buzzing sound, because I didn't connect the ground wire to bridge with my diy electric acoustic guitar, mean I put the electric guitar pickup on acoustic guitar, pls help me
I've always been of the opinion that the contact point of the string, which is the saddle, is where the vibration occurs and enters the body of the guitar and thus it makes no difference where the ball end of the string is attached as far as tone is concerned. I do think that the length of string behind the bridge to the ball end makes a difference in how stiff the guitar feels as far as bending strings goes.
True...but string tension can be altered at the machine head with more windings to create more tension. The scale length of the string is exactly the same, from the bridge to nut...so the point of string contact is exactly the same. The theory a string through creates more tension in the string is another myth...it just changes the area of string where the tension is placed.
There are plenty guitar techs and luthiers who say the string through the body giving more sustain is a myth. A solid body especially one that been painted and lacquered or had a finish applied to the body will not resonate like an acoustic guitar. The pickups respond to the strings when they are struck, and come into contact with the magnetic field of the pickups. The signal is then controlled by the volume and tone controls on the guitar and sent to the amp. If there is any difference it's very very minimal.
I always wondered why Leo Fender used the string through method on the Telecaster. It most cost more than a top loader to produce and Leo wasn’t known for spending unnecessary money and time. I can only imagine that he thought it added some tonal or stability advantage although the Tele bridge is pretty firmly fixed to the body. I personally prefer the lop loader Tele bridge as it seems to make the guitar feel a bit more slinky and is easier to change strings.
Leo Fender couldnt play guitar...he was a sax player...and he made a few weird decisions...like the string dampner on the first Jaguars.
Top load saddles are much higher. If you like low action, the saddles may end up pointing down at an awkward angle with the grub screws sticking way out. It really depends on how deep the neck is set in the pocket. But my hardtail Mustangs had to be converted from the top-load Tele style to vintage Strat string-through bridges.
The bridges on the electric 12 strings I build have both covered. Six strings are through the body and the octave strings are top load.
It’s a fact that the bridge itself stops and absorbs the very largest part of the strings vibrations, so what’s left may be insignificant. I still remember when back in the late 70ies ppl were talking about the supposed lack of sustain of bolt-on guitars compared to set-in and neck-through contructions; being a big fan of Pink Floyd, I didn’t understand what they meant because I couldn’t hear any “lack of sustain” in Gilmore’s guitar, or any other Strat player for what matters.
Guitarworld is full of myths...
Sir, may I ask a question, I’m a beginner and I’ve been playing acoustic guitar for more than one year now. I want to play an electric guitar. Please help me decide on what kind guitar I will buy, here are the list: 1) Yamaha Pacifica 012 HSS pickup, USD207. 2) Yamaha EG112GPII, HSH pickup, USD260 - with free GA15 amplifier 15w, Gig bag, strap, etc. 3) Severo Les Paul model electric guitar USD163.
I know nothing about the guitars you mentioned and therefore cannot advise.
How do you covert a stratocaster bridge w/tremblo to a tuno'matic bridge w/stop bar?
A tuneomatic bridge requires a neck that is installed at an angle. The neck on a Stratocaster is not installed at an angle. The work necessary to fill the tremolo cavities and shim the neck at the required angle should encourage you to leave that Strat alone.
Thank you for your prompt response.
It's nice with a toploader if you have a minor adjustment to make where you may need to remove a string or two, or maybe all of them to get to a pot or switch, especially when you have brand new strings on the guitar. It's fun trying to the thread that pig-ass string through the body. I'd say the difference in tone and resonance is far to minuscule for my ears...I've got two telecaster bodies in my shop right now, both from the same slab of maple. I'm going to do one of each and compare the results. That will at least solve the question in my mind and I don't really care what anybody else thinks since I'm the only one who suffers through my playing!
I dunno why, but I just love string through the body setups, and the resulting higher tunomatic bridge type on es335’s to rest my hand and palm mute. I’m hoping I can convert this Strat I got to that. It came with a Floyd Rose which I don’t want, but the guitar was too good to pass up.
I sure feel like my strings are at least more stable through the body-tone or not.
Any guitars I get, I try to make sure I can put a wraparound bridge on it because of the ease of string change. Which ever hard tail bridge is easier I’ll get! I hate changing strings through the body as well
I have a good ear and I cannot tell the difference top loading or through the body of my Telecaster.
I'm building my first guitar - a Tele style. I was just going to use a top load bridge as I am worried about not getting the string through holes straight. What do you thinks?
Go with a top loader or try this approach: ua-cam.com/video/8CHSg6up928/v-deo.html
Just search for 2-3 videos that show you how to get the holes right if you that is what you want. Try it on another piece of wood to test your approach and think about the steps you take.
Do you have a drill press? Here's what I did for string through top and back ferrules, I used a hardtail bridge's holes to drill out the top holes as if it were a template by taping it down and using a drill press to drill out the six holes half way through the guitar. Then I put down a special piece of mdf on the drill press table that has an indexing pin in the center of it that fits perfectly into the guitars top holes and I line up a forstner bit in the drill presses chuck with the pin on the table and clamp the mdf down to keep it stable. I then put the guitar face down on the mdf and place the indexing pin in to each of the six top holes and the drill presses chuck will be perfectly lined up with the front holes, now drill to the right depth with your forstner bit. Here is a great video, do this! ua-cam.com/video/YIHFFJ0Bdz0/v-deo.html
@@banditkeithkingofduelmonsters Wow! Thanks Keith for your really detailed answer! Yes, I have a good drill press. I'll give it a go on scrap first.
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks HG!
I think string through bridges are a big hassle, both to use and install. I’m a DIYer, so I don’t have as much experience as a lot of people.
I liked this video. It did answer that question for me.
Well.... that's one thing... another one, perhaps more important,is the length of the strings....the higher the length,the bigger the tension,in order for the strings to be tuned! So,a top loader bridge, provides a smaller length.... It's like something the difference between a Stratocaster and a Gibson,but in a lower level ‼️
I think I can hear a difference in tone in the highest 3 strings. I don't notice it with the wound strings, but the others seem to have a plinky sound to me. Nothing a little gain and a good pedal can't take care of though. I suppose it could be the saddles. Perhaps I need to look at changing those before I start drilling holes and installing string ferrules.
top loader eliminates the need for extra work drilling holes and installing string ferrules and it looks better overall imo
Nice vid! For tuneomatics I'm confident it affects tone, since I enlarged the afterlenght of my Gretsch to the 1/6 used in violin families and to me tone and sustain improved . Just mute the afterlenght to check it. The string vibrates after the bridge more freely (I also have a roller bridge on a Hardtail) than I an short or wraparound bridge, thus lasting longer vibration and changing tone because of that notes also vibrating in the afterlenght.
I don't know if swapping the tremolo of a Yamaha for a Schaller 3D-6... Since I read that the tremolo system springs help sustain and Tone. But I rather a Hardtail for my bendings and I don't use a tremolo. What would you suggest?
Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.
@@HighlineGuitars you mentioned that tune o matic style Guitars sound good as Les Paul and that is a top loading bridge.... But the difference with a Tele toploading or a wraparound bridge is that there is quite a piece of string after the saddle to the tailstop. I made it longer on my Gretsch which had a funky tailstop that came from the strap screw, but made the afterlenght shorter than 1/6 of the string which is the proportion found in violin families. I Bought a tailstop and drilled it but put it at 1/6 which is way more far than Gibson or Gretsch standard placing. I think that reduces the stress on the string since there's more material streching and makes it ressonate much bigger. They told me it was non important but just muting the afterlenght with duct tape clearly kills the sound and is highly noticeable. In fact researching I found that violin family instrument players change the tailstop to affect tone and that there are even pieces to fine tune the afterlenght of each string.
I meant that toploaders the string ends right in the saddle or very very short to ring and make any difference. Don't know if there's any free resonance in the passthrough strings, I guess not since between the Ball end and the saddle there's not much string piece.
For the Yamaha I don't know if to put A schaller roller toploader, or just Block the tremolo and try muting the springs and replace graph saddles. I'm more interesed in building a compact travel guitar and checking about toploading bridges I surely will go for that system to keep the things as simple as possible.
I also don't think it would made much difference if the string is that short and how many resonance is passed to the body... Maybe depends on the screws and bridge material, but I'm not that expert. Kind regards
@@guitarrizer i understand what you're talking about :)
If the tone of the string is determined between the saddle and the nut then string through or top loader would not matter at all. I do wonder about there being a node point "the saddle" on a string with minimal slack (the top loader) versus a string with longer slack (the through body.) I have noticed a difference in tone with trapeze tailpieces with floating bridges which have plenty of slack after the node point. Just curious if anyone has any ideas about this. Thanks.
How's the yellow CNC - gets a lot of use?
It's my absolute favorite tool in my shop. If it broke and for some reason, I couldn't fix it, I would quit building guitars rather than go back to the old school approach to making them.
@@HighlineGuitars I have a small x carve but alas its too small to do guitar bodies.
Is your yellow cnc a kit or pre built?
@@freeelectron8261 No to both. I designed it myself. I offer an assembly manual on the following link (scroll down): www.eguitarplans.com/
@@HighlineGuitars Way to go if your canny enough! I'll check it out - Thanks!
I think it's all a tension issue and it makes difference between guitars affected also by the headstock angle. Cannot say in a scientific way but it's something we have to feel by hand. I have a hardtail bridge guitar that has the the both ways and I can test between them. For me, in that *specific guitar*, the strings through body sounds and feels worse, less sustain and more tension. In a Telecaster model I have, the strings through body feels just perfect. I'm pretty sure this feel vary from each guitar.
is top loader and hard tail bridge the same?
Tone/Sustain are open to subjective interpretation. Another consideration is playability as a function of string tension - longer string for the through-the-body bridge means higher tension on the string to bring it to tune = a little more resistance to bending. But back to tone - arguable tonal/attack difference with the reduced string tension from the top loader. Some say the Tele twang, for example, is in part a function of that added string tension, relative to a top loader. No experience, just passing on what I've read. I have a G&L Asat Special with Leo Fender's Saddle Lock bridge - it's a top loader, but sits atop a hidden wedge that's driven into the body to transmit the string vibration, which apparently Leo felt was important enough to include, though that doesn't address the string length/tension issue, assuming it is an issue. Apparently, Leo didn't think so.
It is "common knowledge" (not sure if it is correct or not) that there is a difference in perceived tension while bending strings between top loaders (easier to bend) vs through body. Same as doing "top wrap" for Gibson style tail pieces. It would be an interesting idea for a show to test this out. You just need a t-style guitar with a bridge that supports both top loading and through body, so you can test tension and sustain on the same guitar with the same types of strings.
Preception is the brain's natural placebo. The only way to know if there is a difference would be to conduct the test you describe. So go for it!
I find the difference not tone at all. The guitar vibrates more with the string-through which feels different. That can feel more interactive. Unless you don’t want that vibration. Sometimes I don’t and the string-through can be a hassle. Depends on my mood.
Same here, im 68 yrs old and have heard quite a few of both types in my life, could never hear a lick of difference at all, everyone that tells me they can, i think they just like to hear themselves talk.
I'm getting ready to try top load on a particular Tele because it plays sooo stiff. Not sure why since I have other Teles that are fine. Love this one but it is murder on the hands. I'm thinking top loads should help due to a shallower break angle behind saddles.
I *think* it's because the length is shorter (missing the length thru the body) that the strings feel looser. If that's not it, I hope someone will tell me the right answer.
Hi guys, I'm using THRU-BODY STRINGS (purchased without thinking about the meaning of T.B.) on a TOP-LOADED bridge
Does anybody know if that could be a problem.
I'm not having any "issue", so far so good, but I was wondering and couldn't find answers.
(Stings Model: LaBella Deep Talkin' Bass 760FS -TB - Standard)
(Bass Model: Fender Player Precision PF PWT)
Vibrations are not picked up by pickups.....they are magnetic pickups. String through makes the string longer that is the main difference. The string would need more tension on it to be in tune and therefore it would be a little stiffer.
Vibrations affect the position of the magnet relative to the strings.
Which top loading bridges do you recommend?
www.bitterrootguitars.com/Bridge-hardtail-top-mount-6-string-chrome-p/080633ch.htm
Thank you!
Thank you, good to find your channel, great points .
Agreed
I was hoping to find some recommendations here, but it was all theory (which is good, I guess). Does anybody have any ideas on good options? The only toploader bridge I can find is the Golden Age. I wonder if there are other options.
In the modern era, it is tough to make recommendations because the market changes too often. The recommendations I would have made for this video 3 years ago would likely be no longer valid. Instead of responding to your comment, I would be responding to dozens of others complaining that my recommendations are no longer around.
@@HighlineGuitars Right...there's a different focus here. Thanks, though.
@@srinip
bit.ly/4cZHnVY
bit.ly/462bQjV
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks very much - that's how I found the Golden Age. The Schaller is probably a better option - oh well, the search goes on.
String through just looks better to me
It's all about transmissibility. When we do MIL-STD-810 vibration testing on electronic weapons systems we design a fixture that maximizes stiffness, doesn't induce its own resonances, and ensures a 1:1 transmissibility from the exciter to the unit under test. But once you near 1:1 it cannot be further improved upon in any practical sense.
I would respectfully disagree. Toploader guitars don't sound worse than string through, but they do sound a little different - a bit thinner and more spanky, if you will. Also the Les Paul reference is a bit off the mark, since the significant mass of the body and the bridge/ tailpiece contributes massively to its sound. A better comparison would be: does a toploader tele sound different to a string through tele? I would argue that it does.
I love your videos though, Chris, and have learned lots from you. Thanks for making them.
Thinner and more spanky? I'm going to add that to my repertoire of tone descriptions.
I think the only thing that really matters is the bridge material and the number of string contacts, the less the better they say for stability and Sustain. I have all string thrus and let me tell ya they can be ANNOYING when the string won’t go through hahaha
A top-loader has a shorter string length than a string-through. For argument's sake, a Telecaster has a 1 3/4" body, so you are adding about that much extra string. Some say that the extra length of string makes a difference, or feels different, when doing bends. Why? Because you are stretching about 27" of string with a string-through compared to 25 (whichever scale length plus the short distance behind the saddle). The physics is undeniable with 2" more string . . . the feel of having to stretch 2" more string is debatable . . . the sound difference considering identical distances saddle, fret, to nut . . . even more debatable. In the end, the customer/client may have their own feelings/experience and that will determine which bridge.
How ever the gibson type setup does go over a bridge thats down inside the body. The vibration is then going into the body in this way.
And if the guitar body is resting against any part of your body, the vibration is instantly muted.
In my Fender Jazz 🅱️ass I have a bridge with both options, and in this 🅱️ass it is very easilu noticeable difference in sustain depending which way the strings are installed. However I still think it is not the through body deal that is the mother reason for this happening. I would argue and theorize that it is more to do with the angle the strings cross the bridge, because the biggest difference in contact point is there. There are some examples of the same effect when you over wrap the strings to a les paul vs. under wrap...
To add, this is what I mean by this ua-cam.com/video/GaJjjVKcXJM/v-deo.html
Guitars with top loading bridges, especially in a 25.5” or longer scale length, play better. The shorter and more direct string path through the bridge yields lower string tension. This isn’t theory, I have tested it more times than I can count.
It's not tension. It's a string stiffness difference you feel (force required per unit length change => bend feel). String tension is entirely determined by tuned frequency, scale length, and string mass per unit length (gauge). The bridge type doesn't change any of those.
Its definitely not a theory, its a hypothesis at best and one I disagree with. Its not you. There are so many comments from people in the comments that are complete fiction. The string can be 15 miles long. The only part that matters is the part between the saddle and the nut.
@@vw9659 that is my thinking exactly.
I couldn't agree more...
The strings may get fed through the body but the ballend ends up right against the metal plate about 1/3 inch of bridge-metal away from where it enters if it is back loaded. The string doesn't magically remember that it had passed through the body of the guitar in order to get there. The actual place the ballends end up is almost the same exact place. I call shenenigans.
It is absolutely the same because the strings through the body don't touch the wood there. So it is the exact same construction.
Nice! I subscribed.
Awesome, thank you!
Have to say that I agree. I have one tele that is top loading and one that is string through. No difference as far as I can tell. All thou I still prefer the string through.
I don't think it makes a difference either. maybe on acoustic it does or like a semi electric where the strings are merely going through the top wood
And all that string vibration on a top loader is transferred through the bridge, the screws holding it down to the top and, in the example you show, through the base plate. In a String through, its really only the ball end contacting the ferrules that are in contact with the body. Of course you still have the bridge, its base plate and the string vibration through that too - but generally, the string inside the body doesn't actually touch the wood - its just the ferrules...
In general, I prefer top loading as I find it easier for restringing.
Well said
There is a vid on YT that debunks audibly that there is no difference.
Do you have a link to the video?
The solo from Stairway to Heaven was played on Jimmy Page's top loader "Dragon" telecaster.
Shouldn't "sustain" and "vibration transfer to the body" be polar opposites? Any transfer of energy OUT of the string means the energy of the string itself (which determines its vibration amplitude) decays faster and there is less sustain.
It seems required by physics that there is a tradeoff (all else equal!!!) between acoustic volume and sustain. Luckily, an electric guitar doesn't need to have any acoustic volume so can maximize the tradeoff in favour of sustain (in theory). In practice, even the magnetic pickups extract energy from the strings to some extent, and there are probably tradeoffs there too.
So I want a bridge on my electrics that transfers as little vibration to the body as is possible. In theory, this should have more sustain. As far as "tone", I suppose that depending on the frequency response of the coupling between the bridge and the string, some frequencies may decay more quickly, which may affect the tone. But I would prefer a guitar that picks up the strings as faithfully as possible. If I want any particular frequency response, I can just EQ it.
That being said I agree that the difference in this case is negligible. There are surely much more significant factors.
The last two sentences sum it up well.
Oh you know what, I think I might have an actual good reason for string through, not for solid, but for a hollow body electric guitar, what I'm planning to build I could imagine having the string tension on the bridge would have a bigger sideways pull on the bridge, opposed to having it string through the body, even to the back of the guitar, which would have to be thick enough for it though. So not at all for sound, but to relieve sideways tension maybe?