....Will revolutionise,, its been done before... look on UA-cam .... "Automatic Tube Train Aka New Look Transport (1968)" .. The Victoria Line and Also,, "Looking at London: Victoria Line, 1969,", skip >> 13m 45s
@@MrRolnicek maintenance, since you would need very sophisticated devices along whole lines, which isn't much for an underground line, but it's much for entire railways
Very interesting video, I've often wondered how the DLR works, and it's fascinating to see that it uses such a simple concept to track it's position! I had assumed it would use some sort of GPS system, but I suppose that isn't reliable enough.
GPS is not generally used for trains because having two-dimensional coordinates for a vehicle that moves in one dimension is overkill and it's not precise enough.
In Vancouver, we have had this exact same ATC system deployed for over 30 years with the SkyTrain, now running almost 80KM of track. But I do appreciate the technical depth of the BBC video and the simple explanation of key concepts. Neat to see the loop crossovers on the o-scope.
DLR has different automation level compared to Skytrain though, DLR run on GoA 3 automation that requires onboard staff to open/close doors, unlike GoA 4 on Skytrain that allow the train to be left unattended.
+musicalaviator Oh I'm sure that's what Metro is aiming for amongst other ridiculous demands of their employees, but just think about the cost of removing every single level crossing, pedestrian crossing, and fencing off the entire network. That's before you even start spending money on the actual signalling system or the trains.
+musicalaviator it's because of the nearly useless search engine attached to UA-cam. It saw" train" and assumed you were interested in anything with a train in it. You're lucky you didn't get a "bridal train" on the top of the list.
It is because it shares the same roots. The "SEL" in "Thales SELTrac" (made and brand of the system) comes from Standard Elektrik Lorenz, a german company which merged later to become Alcatel SEL, sold to Thomson CSF which became Thales. That same SEL developed the LZB for the Deutsche Bahn in parallel with SELTrac (at that moment for BVG, the public transport operator of West Berlin) in the 1970ies and in the early 80ies it became reliable systems which were then deployed on thousands of km of track for LZB and exported on many metro networks for SELTrac (among others the DLR and London Underground lines)
It would be nice if this was actually the very near future but with the RMT union i don't see it being easy. I don't see why people are so against this anyway, saying how people will lose jobs and it might even be unsafe. Here's the deal, if all train lines on the tube did go driverless we mightt lost 1 driver/job per train, sure, i'll give you that. But in return each train can hold a couple dozen more people because there wouldn't need to be a driver section. So thats already several thousand(10s of thousands?) of people being benefited by it heavily. Then if it makes trains run ore regularly and on time then that would benefit everyoneee who uses the trains, that''s probably over a million people every day. So sure a few hundred jobs might be lost, but millions of peoples journeys would be better and faster every day. But heres the thing, it doesn't mean a job is lost anyway. With the DRL(the trains shown in the video) they have a staff member on every train doing more helpful things with the passengers. So no jobs are lost there and in return you have more staff members assisting you. Is there a problem with that too? We can't hold back progress because of saving a few jobs. Otherwise we would all be making journeys on horse carriages so that the horse drivers(or whatever) won't be lost to cars. We would all be paying a huge amount more for all the tech we buy because we wouldn't want a machine to build any of it. We wouldn't allow online shopping sites like Amazon because people would lose their jobs at stores due to lower demand. And a load of other stuff. Automated trains are such a minor thing job loss wise and it has many more benefits.
The problem isn't the technology, it's the loss of jobs and unemployment I mean we're at a point where most manual labour jobs can be done away within our current economic system there would be mass unemployment which would be okay if we done away with money. Sadly the current state of capitalism is actually holding back innovation
alex Di Folco-McQuire But in relation to automated trains i've covered that point in my comment. With the DLR there were no fewer jobs than if the trains weren/t driverless.
Here in Toronto we're dealing with dozens of weekend closures on our subway system as they slowly implement ATC (Automated Train Control) which is something a bit similar. I can so easily see the head of the biggest union quashing ANY talk of doing away with drivers. *NOT* because of people losing their jobs, but because fewer drivers means fewer union members means less power for him and his cronies. (The Scarboro RT, which is only slightly older then the DLR, was supposed to operate the same way, but the union made such a big stink they still have drivers.)
First time I've came across Liz Bonnin. Immediately, I was enchanted by her. Her voice reminds me of Marina Sirtis of TNG fame... This lady needs to make more informative flics like this. Instant attention grabber
+mill101 This is no new system, it's been there since almost 30 years ago. Did it change the Tube? And even if it did, there's still staff needed on the trains to operate them, they are not fully automatic like other similar systems.
mill101 yes but one small signal fault can cause a major disruption and recovery will be slow seen in the circle line singapore disruption where a signal fault causes trains to hit the emergency breaks and staff are required to walk in the tunnels to access the trains and manual drive it ti the next stop where the signalling can than be reset investigation that a rogue train was to be blamed
The crossing wire system is a Frence technology which was developped in the 1970s for the Paris subway. It was a speed regulator but the trains were not fully automatic.
+Integrated Electronics Wrong, it's German. It's based on the system that's used for high speed trains in Germany, Austria and Spain. It was first tested in West Berlin.
Interesting. I've noticed these loops on the commuter rail and subways of the MBTA. But they still use drivers on both. I've often thought that train systems, relatively speaking would be the easiest systems to automate. " And me - I've taken the MBTA Red Line from Braintree end to Central. I can tell you that I used to commute from South Station to Central - nice quick ride but then it was only about 3.2 miles. Now I'm working in Quincy it's 6.2 miles. However I note the trains move much slower on the southern end of the Red Line. A lot due to congestion I'm sure.
+kd1s Even with drivers, the system helps the control room to know where all the trains are, and helps the drivers know how fast to go, and when to speed up and slow down.
In my old stamping ground there are coal trains with 50 or 100 wagons each grossing about 73 tonnes, mixing in with pendolino passenger trains and ordinary mixed freight, diesel and electric hauled. Much but not all is single track working over distances of up to 300km. Obviously stopping distances and train speed vary enormously. On this London light railway, train mass is always nearly the same. I suspect that moving blocks would be rather more difficult to set up with mixed coal freight and passenger trains.
is anyone else who lives in London excited to see when driverless trains come to the tube, tons of jobs are lost even though tfl said there wouldn't be and then the whole transport network goes into the longest strike we've ever had and everyone's playing the London underground song out loud with rage.
+ChaosPotato every station (not just the DLR) has a full set of cameras, sensors and emergency stop systems. The sensors are not on the train, however, the all stop signal is automated across the underground system - even in the train with drivers if someone steps onto the tracks, the nearby trains will immediately stop. Sadly, there isn't much you can do without the physical barriers like on the Jubilee line to stop people leaping in front of the train at the last second.
+SchneiderMan There's also fallback systems, such as old fashioned track circuits, the rotation sensors they mentioned, and I'd be willing to bet the trains all have GPS on board. Also, cutting the cables would be a lousy terrorist attack, as any sensible engineer would design the trains to stop if they have no idea where they are, so there wouldn't be any casualties unless you timed it excessively well.
For main lines, ERTMS is basically the same, but it uses eurobalises that respond to radio signals instead of cable loops. Sadly, it's gonna take decades before that becomes mainstream.
Actually someone died recently after falling onto the track at a station and the passengers at the front of the train couldn’t get to the emergency stop button on time
That's cab signaling. Tells the train how fast it can go via light aspects on the dash and the track conditions ahead. We have them in our trolley tunnel in Philly but they attached to the columns between the tracks.
Does the DLR really drives its trains in convoys where the distance between the trains is less than the braking distance, i. e. if the first train stops catastrophically, the second train would crash into it? Usually, the advances in rail technology mean that the blocks trains occupy are virtualized (no signals) and their lengths minimized, but the principle that the block in front of a train is free, i. e. its safety doesn't depend on something else getting out of the way in time, remains.
+Tim Landscheidt The block will include the thinking distance, in this case the amount of time it takes the braking train to signal that it's braking and for any train behind it to be relayed that signal.
+Bungle2010 The topic of this video isn't the DLR's actual timetable, but the technical safety mechanisms. So let me rephrase my question: If DLR would be running trains in a convoy and the first one would stop catastrophically, would the trains behind it crash into it?
I would at least still have a dude up front who could press an emergency stop button just in case things go wrong. Which, according to Merphy's law, will.
+Bungle2010 That means the need of an emeregncy stop button more needed. Bit of a saying. The longer you go without an accident the closer you are to one
Very well put @bungle2010. Automating everything from checkout tills to trains is all well and good but with every automation there is a redundancy and without paying customers trains dont run and shops don't open
NoYourself For a large object like a tree there would probably be sensors or track CCTV to alert people at a control room and/or on the train. As for people, like the other guy said not much you can do. Someone died recently after falling onto the tracks at a station
This is the problem, it doesn't stop. There is no sensors on the trains , the cctv personel can't pick it up on time as they can't watch all the stations nor tracks. I witnessed recently a fatal suicide attempt and tried to stop the oncoming train but I haven't been picked up on camera waving and shouting nor the passengers in the train comprehend the situation. He did not jump! He must have been longer waiting on the tracks. It is very traumatic.If one sits on the front they literally see it and there is no alarm button on the front inside. The person was not the first one strucked. If you do research you find other victims they did not want to dye but fallen down ill , one pushed and one went to close to the edge and fallen down and were overun. So this is minimum 4 fatalities in the last couple of years. Not sure about the near miss. Sadly the man passed recently . R.I.P
Driverless is the future of all transport. Be it underground, rail, buses, taxis, cars, planes even. One day transport will be far safer than it is today and capacity higher. 70% of all plane accidents are caused by pilot error for example. How many 'accidents' are there on the road and how many caused by driver error?
Tell me in this day and age why do we need train drivers? Trains only go forward slow down speed up and brake. Oh that's right the unions who insist its for safety even though the overwhelming cause of train accidents is actually caused by the drivers themselves.
Gavin Sharp Well let's say a sudden fault popped up on a train. A driver could easily fix this problem than someone dashing through congested traffic to fix it. Additionally, would you rather be safe than sorry?
Well yes I do believe you should do your own fact checking you challenged the original poster in quite an arsey way without any facts and all I did was point out that the accident reports from very minor to some of the worlds worst accidents, will support what they said.
Singapore Train Systems also uses this Technologies and soon GPS "SMART" technologies will be soon introduced to Singapore in the 2020s and the ALL Existing Manual Operated will be REPLACED by this System.
+Gopinath Muruti I don't like machines taking over all our jobs but our tube drivers just constantly strike because they want more and they really don't do all that much compared to bus drivers who navigate traffic and people. So if the tube drivers lose their jobs I really wouldn't care.
+Gopinath Muruti Transportation's a dying industry. Truck drivers, pilots, ship captains, they're all going to be out of jobs when the robots take over. However, given the number of deadly accidents caused by human error, especially on the roads, this is definitely not a bad thing overall.
***** No. Sorry about by comment but it was just a little rant about are tube drivers. If they don't want to be replaced though they should try harder to not annoy the public and management all the time.
+kammak743 if you actually talk to tube staff why they go on strike, then you realise that they are human, and tbh they have a valid reason. Even those who aren't part of the RMT or some other union. Anyway the minutes lost to strikes isn't much compared to failures on the engineering side, just my opinion and I stand by tube staff and drivers.
it's an interesting system I know computers can do jobs like counting the number of revolutions the wheel has turned or number of Loops passed but both of those methods are prone to cumulative error on a small scale it wouldn't matter but if you were doing it on a country or a continent the tiny errors would eventually add up and the train could be anything between a metre and half a kilometre away from its reported location although this could be solved by putting GPS systems on the train
combining systems fixes that. For instance, you could have checkin points every few km where the train "logs in". Then any calculations are done from that point.
+frank cusack Redundancy's the name of the game here, they have a bunch of different ways to tell where trains are. I don't know this for a fact, but I'd be willing to bet that the trains have GPS on them, although I doubt it's used in general operation, probably just to locate stopped trains. Also, the loops are not prone to cumulative errors, only the wheel sensors. The chances of the sensor "missing" a crossover is basically zero, and the crossover points never change, so in effect the loops are log points.
Most deep level tube lines are already automatic,the entire system will be driver less in 5 years.at the moment a member of staff,who is called the train operator remains in the cab controlling the door operation.in the near future this will change and the member of staff will travel somewhere on the train.two serious problems with this,any track related danger will not be registered by a driver less train,and without doubt one day a train will catch fire in the tube tunnel.weather it takes 5years or 25 years it will happen.if that happens in peak period it would be catastrophic.
+Bungle2010 To the cost of running them, and to the reliability of the network. There are always announcements that 'due to a signal failure, such and such line is suspended'. This technology could do away with all that, plus all the drivers holding London for ransom whenever they please.
+Eduard BP The Northern, Central, Jubilee and Victoria lines operate with ATO (Automatic Train Operation). This means that the trains basicly run by themselves but the "drivers" are there in case of an emergency and to open the doors and set of at the stations a bit like a dispatcher used to do
+Andrew Nielsen drivers drive the train on weekends and open sections of the northern line, would like to see that type of train operation rather than no driver, the tube won't be ready for it for now.
these trains do have drivers they just monitor not drive unless told over wise they have a emergency panel they can use to drive and they also have train driving experience
+AMGitsKriss There are only Public Service Agents onboard for safety reasons. They don´t operate the trains unless they really have to, and that´s rare!
+Andrew Sebastian Rothgarn Antonsen Not exactly true. There are several levels of train operation reaching from completely manual operation on sight up to fully automated trains. The DLR is just using the second highest level where the train moves totally automatic but the closing of the doors has to be overseen by staff.
Andrew Sebastian Rothgarn Antonsen not as such. Any rush hour train will be manned by a 'captain' at the front access controls. This is to see the doors shut promptly and regulate service. But should they need to drive it manually then they can and will.
When they sit at the front, they don’t directly operate the train. They’re at the front ready to perform an emergency stop incase there is a [possible] track incident.
and no greedy gangsters ( unionised drivers) going on strike every year! fantastic! they should make the whole london tube system driverless - fire the gangsters who hold us hostage every year!
Unfortunately DLR still require a staff onboard for safe operation as they run on GoA 3 automation, unlike GoA 4 that can be left completely unattended. However even a full automation doesn't prevent control room and station staff strike though.
Why on earth the BBC didn’t brand ‘bang goes the theory’ as ‘tomorrow’s world’ I can not understand… Tomorrow’s world was a flagship brand and its scandalous that its been left to die. Come on BBC.. bring back tomorrow’s world… and bring it bang upto date… I might actually start watching the BBC. again if the shows got better.
Vital Mark our rail system may not be like europes, but what they have in terms of capacity, we make up for in tonnage. compared to us, the heaviest trains over in Europe are about 1000-2000 tons. in the states, your average freight train weighs in at 10,000 tons and are well over a mile in length.
I wonder what the failure rate for this system is. Here in Vancouver, we get delays that are sometimes so bad enough that we have to close down entire track sections. Throw it back to 2014 when the entire system shutdown twice. One was thanks to a computer error which logged off all the trains and the other was in human error when an electrician screwed up and cut a communications cable. Nonetheless, I find it very amazing that we can run trains run at frequencies of up to 90 seconds at rush hour. Something not very many cities have. Sadly, the of Vancouver gives no damn and will complain nonstop and expect things that are literally inpossible. Its so bad that we still complain when we get service improvements. Sheesh. I love my city - I just cant stand thise who complain at ever Translink does.
Maybe it's just in our country, but i would be worried what is some idiot cuts the wire and/or steals it? Otherwise awesome idea, but i would prefer GNSS - positioning for every train using satellites GPS/GLOBASS/GALILEO..
probably because unless they were electromagnetic you wouldn't notice they were gone and secondly magnets degrade over time admittedly is a long time but its hastened by stuff like fluctuations in temperature and what's going on in the surrounding environment
It happens in Denmark aswell with people stealing the cable. But only on the S-train thats manned. I don't think it have happen on the unmanned metro yet.
+Lukáš Artek But who would be stupid enough to stand on a railway, with trains coming every 15 minutes or whatever it is? It'd definitely take up more than 15 minutes to take out 25m of wire ^_^
If someone cuts the wire they system detects that there is a fault and stops all the trains in the area. GPS isn't accurate enough to be used for train position and dosent work underground.
***** Apples are free. Commerce and government are one symbiotic entity that need each other to exist. 3D protein printers cannot come about by chance and then self replicate. Physical is slowed down energy. Gravity is an illusion.
It is not as safe the DLR as shown in this film., Anyone beeing on the tracks will face highly to be overun as the driverless trains has no obstacles sensors on the front. Try as passenger in the train or on the platform to stop an oncoming train. If one presses the alarm the train won't stop immediatly. The process to bring a DLR train to emergency stop is too lengthy and people lost their life whilst either fallen ill on the platform and fallen on the tracks or been pushed or lately standing on the track. , There is not enough time and the cctv operator room can't monitor all the stations and tracks, that's is what they say.
Jobs were created, not lost by the DLR. A. It opened with this system, so how could any drivers lose their jobs if they haven’t had them to begin with? B. There is an attendant on board every train. If necessary, they can open a panel at the front of the train that has drivers controls. C. There are people working behind the scenes too, for example signalling, train maintenance, track maintenance etc.
Will revolutionise the way trains are run? She said, like it was new. The DLR has been running for 29 years now.
That means it's now proven technology, yes? Not a risk to invest in.
....Will revolutionise,, its been done before...
look on UA-cam .... "Automatic Tube Train Aka New Look Transport (1968)" .. The Victoria Line
and
Also,, "Looking at London: Victoria Line, 1969,", skip >> 13m 45s
I think she meant implementation of this technology on other rail networks
Now 35 years
@TDR REVENGE The victoria line trains still have drivers on board.
We've had this technology and the knowlede for a good number of years now, I'm honestly surprised that this is not the standard yet.
+MrRolnicek So am I. Technology even evolved since the DLR was build.
In Singapore we have line which are driverless but there are staff Monitoring
It's incredibly expensive, and you would always require the most modern train to run
@@marcodamasio which part is expensive and for what reason?
@@MrRolnicek maintenance, since you would need very sophisticated devices along whole lines, which isn't much for an underground line, but it's much for entire railways
Very interesting video, I've often wondered how the DLR works, and it's fascinating to see that it uses such a simple concept to track it's position! I had assumed it would use some sort of GPS system, but I suppose that isn't reliable enough.
GPS is not generally used for trains because having two-dimensional coordinates for a vehicle that moves in one dimension is overkill and it's not precise enough.
I know it’s old but I still find that the DLR is still the most incredible transport that relies on no drivers but instead is controlled by computers.
Still require a staff member onboard to operate doors though. DLR runs on GoA 3 automation as opposed to GoA 4 automation that can be left unattended.
In Vancouver, we have had this exact same ATC system deployed for over 30 years with the SkyTrain, now running almost 80KM of track.
But I do appreciate the technical depth of the BBC video and the simple explanation of key concepts. Neat to see the loop crossovers on the o-scope.
the DLR is that old too
DLR has different automation level compared to Skytrain though, DLR run on GoA 3 automation that requires onboard staff to open/close doors, unlike GoA 4 on Skytrain that allow the train to be left unattended.
3:03 - A guy picking his nose and hiding the "findings"... :P
Just one question.
Couldn't they have made those trains prettier?
Domagoj Terzic yes but they didnt
The older cars looked better
who cares - it’s just a train lol
i think they look good
Efficiency: is a killer of many nice things in life.
I always noticed those ground wire loops here in Nürnberg and never figured out their use till this Moment.
SkyTrain in Vancouver, Canada has being like this since 1986.
***** I do note that bart is driverless, but isnt there still a front cab?
+Bungle2010 I'm sure the underground started in the late 1800s
@@Russel530 did they say the entire Tube system? Stop trolling
why was this video one that came up when I was searching for videos about the train strike in Melbourne this week... hmmm.
Automated robots with picks and hammers repairing tracks and replacing stolen wiring... riiight.
+musicalaviator Oh I'm sure that's what Metro is aiming for amongst other ridiculous demands of their employees, but just think about the cost of removing every single level crossing, pedestrian crossing, and fencing off the entire network. That's before you even start spending money on the actual signalling system or the trains.
+musicalaviator it's because of the nearly useless search engine attached to UA-cam. It saw" train" and assumed you were interested in anything with a train in it. You're lucky you didn't get a "bridal train" on the top of the list.
***** You probably used quotes, though that doesn't always work.
That's okay, they'll automate your job soon enough.
This video reminds me of the good old days, when the US was on the forefront of infrastructure advancement.
+ptrinch Except now it isn't.
+ptrinch Now it's China.
+Alex “Phil” Carter Funny how changing around one letter makes quite, quiet :P
this is the UK the US sucks ass at technological development
The cables on the rails are like the german LZB System!
The cables cross every 100 Meters though.
It is because it shares the same roots. The "SEL" in "Thales SELTrac" (made and brand of the system) comes from Standard Elektrik Lorenz, a german company which merged later to become Alcatel SEL, sold to Thomson CSF which became Thales. That same SEL developed the LZB for the Deutsche Bahn in parallel with SELTrac (at that moment for BVG, the public transport operator of West Berlin) in the 1970ies and in the early 80ies it became reliable systems which were then deployed on thousands of km of track for LZB and exported on many metro networks for SELTrac (among others the DLR and London Underground lines)
It would be nice if this was actually the very near future but with the RMT union i don't see it being easy.
I don't see why people are so against this anyway, saying how people will lose jobs and it might even be unsafe. Here's the deal, if all train lines on the tube did go driverless we mightt lost 1 driver/job per train, sure, i'll give you that. But in return each train can hold a couple dozen more people because there wouldn't need to be a driver section. So thats already several thousand(10s of thousands?) of people being benefited by it heavily. Then if it makes trains run ore regularly and on time then that would benefit everyoneee who uses the trains, that''s probably over a million people every day. So sure a few hundred jobs might be lost, but millions of peoples journeys would be better and faster every day.
But heres the thing, it doesn't mean a job is lost anyway. With the DRL(the trains shown in the video) they have a staff member on every train doing more helpful things with the passengers. So no jobs are lost there and in return you have more staff members assisting you. Is there a problem with that too?
We can't hold back progress because of saving a few jobs. Otherwise we would all be making journeys on horse carriages so that the horse drivers(or whatever) won't be lost to cars. We would all be paying a huge amount more for all the tech we buy because we wouldn't want a machine to build any of it. We wouldn't allow online shopping sites like Amazon because people would lose their jobs at stores due to lower demand. And a load of other stuff. Automated trains are such a minor thing job loss wise and it has many more benefits.
The problem isn't the technology, it's the loss of jobs and unemployment I mean we're at a point where most manual labour jobs can be done away within our current economic system there would be mass unemployment which would be okay if we done away with money. Sadly the current state of capitalism is actually holding back innovation
alex Di Folco-McQuire But in relation to automated trains i've covered that point in my comment. With the DLR there were no fewer jobs than if the trains weren/t driverless.
+Ben W i agree and its a real shame. The DLR runs so smoothly.
+Bungle2010 Are you a train driver/related to one? You seem to be quite pro them.. You've made quite a few comments in that light
***** Sadly, the world moves on
Here in Toronto we're dealing with dozens of weekend closures on our subway system as they slowly implement ATC (Automated Train Control) which is something a bit similar. I can so easily see the head of the biggest union quashing ANY talk of doing away with drivers. *NOT* because of people losing their jobs, but because fewer drivers means fewer union members means less power for him and his cronies.
(The Scarboro RT, which is only slightly older then the DLR, was supposed to operate the same way, but the union made such a big stink they still have drivers.)
Is this the same system as in Copenhagens subway?
First time I've came across Liz Bonnin. Immediately, I was enchanted by her. Her voice reminds me of Marina Sirtis of TNG fame... This lady needs to make more informative flics like this. Instant attention grabber
Is this the end of tube strikes? Hope so
+mill101 This is no new system, it's been there since almost 30 years ago. Did it change the Tube? And even if it did, there's still staff needed on the trains to operate them, they are not fully automatic like other similar systems.
I thought the original Victoria line was designed to be driver less. Staff on each platform would work the doors and trigger trigger departure.
mill101 yes but one small signal fault can cause a major disruption and recovery will be slow seen in the circle line singapore disruption where a signal fault causes trains to hit the emergency breaks and staff are required to walk in the tunnels to access the trains and manual drive it ti the next stop where the signalling can than be reset investigation that a rogue train was to be blamed
Dlr runs totally different to the tube it would take yrs for the tube to catch up as its 5 times bigger then the dlr system
NeoDerGrosse huh
This is DLR
The crossing wire system is a Frence technology which was developped in the 1970s for the Paris subway. It was a speed regulator but the trains were not fully automatic.
+Integrated Electronics Wrong, it's German. It's based on the system that's used for high speed trains in Germany, Austria and Spain. It was first tested in West Berlin.
+NeoDerGrose Ok where can I find info on that?
Interesting. I've noticed these loops on the commuter rail and subways of the MBTA. But they still use drivers on both. I've often thought that train systems, relatively speaking would be the easiest systems to automate. "
And me - I've taken the MBTA Red Line from Braintree end to Central. I can tell you that I used to commute from South Station to Central - nice quick ride but then it was only about 3.2 miles. Now I'm working in Quincy it's 6.2 miles. However I note the trains move much slower on the southern end of the Red Line. A lot due to congestion I'm sure.
+kd1s Even with drivers, the system helps the control room to know where all the trains are, and helps the drivers know how fast to go, and when to speed up and slow down.
Hi BBC Earth Lab,
May I have permission to show this video in a training program I'm designing?
was that the DLR Depot in Gallions Reach or a different one? because i recognised most places the DLR Ran in that video.
I want a system like this in my town
Hong Kong's MTR Tuen Ma line(West Rail and Ma On Shan Line after merging) is also using a similar system.
In my old stamping ground there are coal trains with 50 or 100 wagons each grossing about 73 tonnes, mixing in with pendolino passenger trains and ordinary mixed freight, diesel and electric hauled. Much but not all is single track working over distances of up to 300km. Obviously stopping distances and train speed vary enormously. On this London light railway, train mass is always nearly the same. I suspect that moving blocks would be rather more difficult to set up with mixed coal freight and passenger trains.
Thing is Incase a train has a problem there is a slide out control board where drivers can sit and control the train manually if required
is anyone else who lives in London excited to see when driverless trains come to the tube, tons of jobs are lost even though tfl said there wouldn't be and then the whole transport network goes into the longest strike we've ever had and everyone's playing the London underground song out loud with rage.
Those cables are prone to cutting though.
Good thing it's not the only system they use.
+SchneiderMan That, and what if somebody throws himself on the rails? Is there any camera sensor magic heartbeat detector thing to brake hard?
+ChaosPotato every station (not just the DLR) has a full set of cameras, sensors and emergency stop systems. The sensors are not on the train, however, the all stop signal is automated across the underground system - even in the train with drivers if someone steps onto the tracks, the nearby trains will immediately stop. Sadly, there isn't much you can do without the physical barriers like on the Jubilee line to stop people leaping in front of the train at the last second.
+SchneiderMan The driver is prone to stabbing. The rails are prone to vandalism. It works both ways.
+SchneiderMan There's also fallback systems, such as old fashioned track circuits, the rotation sensors they mentioned, and I'd be willing to bet the trains all have GPS on board. Also, cutting the cables would be a lousy terrorist attack, as any sensible engineer would design the trains to stop if they have no idea where they are, so there wouldn't be any casualties unless you timed it excessively well.
For main lines, ERTMS is basically the same, but it uses eurobalises that respond to radio signals instead of cable loops. Sadly, it's gonna take decades before that becomes mainstream.
On the Jubilee and Northern lines and soon to the Sub surface lines, the trains are automatically driven as well
The Jubilee and Northern line uses the same system, only difference is there still is drivers cab and the driver presses two start buttons
So can someone please tell me where the hell the DLR gets power from ? The two wheel tracks ?
it has an electric strip on one side of the rails which is where it draws power from.
+niels Mallant yeah ;D I noticed in one of the high quality amateur train spotter videos XD thanks!
The DLR uses a third rail system, like most metro systems around the world.
Third rail
Runs next to the tracks, slightly raised, with a cover over it
bottom contact third rail
The jubilee line has drivers but it has moving block signals
Does anyone know what are the intervals between trains, their maximum and average speed?
I LOOOVE LIZ BONNIN !😍😍🥰
Is seriously no one gonna worry about how she’s driving on the motorway looking at the camera instead of the road?
What if someone jumps, or there is something on the track? how does the train react if at all?
Warning system in the tracks slows them down if it senses a foreign object in the track area
Actually someone died recently after falling onto the track at a station and the passengers at the front of the train couldn’t get to the emergency stop button on time
There is no safety in place . No sensors on the train. See my other comments . It is fatal .
Interestingly I've noted those same cross point loops on tracks on both the commuter rail and subway lines in Boston.
That's cab signaling. Tells the train how fast it can go via light aspects on the dash and the track conditions ahead. We have them in our trolley tunnel in Philly but they attached to the columns between the tracks.
can you do a video on how automatic trains work in singapore? there isnt these wires things here.
please make a video explaining why the DLR is so wobbly :)
the one at 52 seconds is where live. it is in redbridge
No at 3:30 it's show a brief glimpse of the powered rail
Your point?
Apologies if it's already been said but I can't understand how she was allowed onto the "permanent way" without hi-viz.
She was in the yard
@@RRansomSmith All the more reason for it
Does the DLR really drives its trains in convoys where the distance between the trains is less than the braking distance, i. e. if the first train stops catastrophically, the second train would crash into it? Usually, the advances in rail technology mean that the blocks trains occupy are virtualized (no signals) and their lengths minimized, but the principle that the block in front of a train is free, i. e. its safety doesn't depend on something else getting out of the way in time, remains.
+Tim Landscheidt The block will include the thinking distance, in this case the amount of time it takes the braking train to signal that it's braking and for any train behind it to be relayed that signal.
+Jack Evans So you're saying that on DLR if a train stops catastrophically, the trains behind it could crash into it?
+Bungle2010 The topic of this video isn't the DLR's actual timetable, but the technical safety mechanisms. So let me rephrase my question: If DLR would be running trains in a convoy and the first one would stop catastrophically, would the trains behind it crash into it?
+Tim Landscheidt simple answer no
Singapore Subway and Light Rail Train are using This Advanced System as shown.
I still prefer to drive my vehicles Myself.
The only two times DLR has had a crash is when a human was driving the train.
But it could decrease the chances of surviving when your on the tracks.
Very informative information, Thank you Appreciate.
I would at least still have a dude up front who could press an emergency stop button just in case things go wrong. Which, according to Merphy's law, will.
+Joshua Walters Much like your spelling of Murphy.
Well thanks for the 'needed' correction. I don't spell things very well and rightly don't care.
+Joshua Walters All the DLR trains do have a member of staff on board who can stop the train is necessary.
There is an emergency stop button on platforms (behind a small glass door) that anyone can use if there is an emergency
+Bungle2010 That means the need of an emeregncy stop button more needed. Bit of a saying. The longer you go without an accident the closer you are to one
The moving block is a great idea, more trains in a given space UNTIL... until one gets to a terminus which can only handle so many trains at a time.
You do know the system is designed for that as well
Very well put @bungle2010. Automating everything from checkout tills to trains is all well and good but with every automation there is a redundancy and without paying customers trains dont run and shops don't open
how does the train stop for unknown objects on the tracks? Like a fallen tree or a suicide attempt without a driver?
There is not much you can do about suicidal people on any railway.
+Bungle2010 That's not totally true. The Stratford to Canary Wharf line is in a cutting full of trees.
NoYourself For a large object like a tree there would probably be sensors or track CCTV to alert people at a control room and/or on the train. As for people, like the other guy said not much you can do. Someone died recently after falling onto the tracks at a station
This is the problem, it doesn't stop. There is no sensors on the trains , the cctv personel can't pick it up on time as they can't watch all the stations nor tracks. I witnessed recently a fatal suicide attempt and tried to stop the oncoming train but I haven't been picked up on camera waving and shouting nor the passengers in the train comprehend the situation. He did not jump! He must have been longer waiting on the tracks. It is very traumatic.If one sits on the front they literally see it and there is no alarm button on the front inside. The person was not the first one strucked. If you do research you find other victims they did not want to dye but fallen down ill , one pushed and one went to close to the edge and fallen down and were overun. So this is minimum 4 fatalities in the last couple of years. Not sure about the near miss. Sadly the man passed recently . R.I.P
Why not use GPS tracking to determine train position and speed ??
+Markus Dammasch cost
+Markus Dammasch I'm not sure if the trains go underground, but it they do, they won't have signal.
+MrSaiwen - yea, didnt think of the underground - GPS would be useless.
+Markus Dammasch The lack of reliability and precision most likely (not cost, GPS isn't expensive)
GPS isn't used for train position because it isn't precise enough and dosent work underground.
Driverless is the future of all transport. Be it underground, rail, buses, taxis, cars, planes even. One day transport will be far safer than it is today and capacity higher. 70% of all plane accidents are caused by pilot error for example. How many 'accidents' are there on the road and how many caused by driver error?
Tell me in this day and age why do we need train drivers? Trains only go forward slow down speed up and brake. Oh that's right the unions who insist its for safety even though the overwhelming cause of train accidents is actually caused by the drivers themselves.
Gavin Sharp Well let's say a sudden fault popped up on a train. A driver could easily fix this problem than someone dashing through congested traffic to fix it. Additionally, would you rather be safe than sorry?
DLR is automated but requires staff on board in case of emergency. Skytrain is different, it can handle emergencies even when unattended.
Well Bungle2010 the accident reports of many train crashes support their statement.
I'm not your slave look up the accident reports for your self they should be in the public domain in most countries
Well yes I do believe you should do your own fact checking you challenged the original poster in quite an arsey way without any facts and all I did was point out that the accident reports from very minor to some of the worlds worst accidents, will support what they said.
Its called cbtc worldwide
I sat on the front of this train today and wondered how it worked thx
Universal Basic Income is the solution to inevitable job losses. Science of a different kind.
indeed
Interesting. But wouldn't fitting GPS on the trains and tracking via it achieve the same thing?
We have a glimpse on new tube for London, lol.
Singapore Train Systems also uses this Technologies and soon GPS "SMART" technologies will be soon introduced to Singapore in the 2020s and the ALL Existing Manual Operated will be REPLACED by this System.
SG MRT's are not all the time run manually.
The Older Models of the Siemen Types are Still operated Manually Except the DRIVERLESS ones in the Circle Line.
I'd be surprised if they get it working at Clapham Junction.
Are they powered by 3rd rail?
Yes
Next to the tracks
Making some more people jobless.
*****
It's like the mining industry, huge machines are better than a few men with pick axes.
+Gopinath Muruti I don't like machines taking over all our jobs but our tube drivers just constantly strike because they want more and they really don't do all that much compared to bus drivers who navigate traffic and people. So if the tube drivers lose their jobs I really wouldn't care.
+Gopinath Muruti Transportation's a dying industry. Truck drivers, pilots, ship captains, they're all going to be out of jobs when the robots take over. However, given the number of deadly accidents caused by human error, especially on the roads, this is definitely not a bad thing overall.
***** No. Sorry about by comment but it was just a little rant about are tube drivers. If they don't want to be replaced though they should try harder to not annoy the public and management all the time.
+kammak743 if you actually talk to tube staff why they go on strike, then you realise that they are human, and tbh they have a valid reason. Even those who aren't part of the RMT or some other union. Anyway the minutes lost to strikes isn't much compared to failures on the engineering side, just my opinion and I stand by tube staff and drivers.
it's an interesting system I know computers can do jobs like counting the number of revolutions the wheel has turned or number of Loops passed but both of those methods are prone to cumulative error on a small scale it wouldn't matter but if you were doing it on a country or a continent the tiny errors would eventually add up and the train could be anything between a metre and half a kilometre away from its reported location although this could be solved by putting GPS systems on the train
combining systems fixes that. For instance, you could have checkin points every few km where the train "logs in". Then any calculations are done from that point.
+Jim Groth didn't think of that thanks also I think about it cumulative errors are so small you could probably use the stations as log points
GPS won't work in tunnels
+salaciousone gps can still be used in conjunction with the other systems to increase accuracy.
+frank cusack Redundancy's the name of the game here, they have a bunch of different ways to tell where trains are. I don't know this for a fact, but I'd be willing to bet that the trains have GPS on them, although I doubt it's used in general operation, probably just to locate stopped trains. Also, the loops are not prone to cumulative errors, only the wheel sensors. The chances of the sensor "missing" a crossover is basically zero, and the crossover points never change, so in effect the loops are log points.
Most deep level tube lines are already automatic,the entire system will be driver less in 5 years.at the moment a member of staff,who is called the train operator remains in the cab controlling the door operation.in the near future this will change and the member of staff will travel somewhere on the train.two serious problems with this,any track related danger will not be registered by a driver less train,and without doubt one day a train will catch fire in the tube tunnel.weather it takes 5years or 25 years it will happen.if that happens in peak period it would be catastrophic.
Paul Cowell and how would a tube driver help stop a fire?
Those wires are overkill. An RFID tag system would work just fine.
RFID is too weak isn't it? Don't think it's designed for this function.
The question is - can this system be adapted for the London Underground? That's where it would make a huge difference.
+Bungle2010 To the cost of running them, and to the reliability of the network. There are always announcements that 'due to a signal failure, such and such line is suspended'. This technology could do away with all that, plus all the drivers holding London for ransom whenever they please.
+Eduard BP The Northern, Central, Jubilee and Victoria lines operate with ATO (Automatic Train Operation). This means that the trains basicly run by themselves but the "drivers" are there in case of an emergency and to open the doors and set of at the stations a bit like a dispatcher used to do
+Andrew Nielsen Thanks for that Andrew, didn't know that.
+Andrew Nielsen drivers drive the train on weekends and open sections of the northern line, would like to see that type of train operation rather than no driver, the tube won't be ready for it for now.
2:50 Heisenberg's uncertainty principle: how certain are you of anything in the uncertain world?
Why no GPS?
these trains do have drivers they just monitor not drive unless told over wise they have a emergency panel they can use to drive and they also have train driving experience
They're attendants, not drivers.
No signals?
And yet, the DLR is rarely left on automatic. The train captain/attendant usually opts to drive it.
+AMGitsKriss There are only Public Service Agents onboard for safety reasons. They don´t operate the trains unless they really have to, and that´s rare!
+Andrew Sebastian Rothgarn Antonsen Not exactly true. There are several levels of train operation reaching from completely manual operation on sight up to fully automated trains. The DLR is just using the second highest level where the train moves totally automatic but the closing of the doors has to be overseen by staff.
Andrew Sebastian Rothgarn Antonsen not as such. Any rush hour train will be manned by a 'captain' at the front access controls. This is to see the doors shut promptly and regulate service. But should they need to drive it manually then they can and will.
was on it yesterday, only drive to couple / uncouple the trains in an emergancy / to the depo only.
When they sit at the front, they don’t directly operate the train. They’re at the front ready to perform an emergency stop incase there is a [possible] track incident.
and no greedy gangsters ( unionised drivers) going on strike every year! fantastic! they should make the whole london tube system driverless - fire the gangsters who hold us hostage every year!
Unfortunately DLR still require a staff onboard for safe operation as they run on GoA 3 automation, unlike GoA 4 that can be left completely unattended. However even a full automation doesn't prevent control room and station staff strike though.
In order to run a driverless metro system, strict laws and law abiding citizens are a must. Every passenger must act like sheep.
that's like the Skytrain in Vancouver! No drivers
Until 2008 when the Dubai metro got the record.
Skytrain is once again the longest driverless metro system in the world now with the new Evergreen Extension
australia usually use electric wires above the trains
Why on earth the BBC didn’t brand ‘bang goes the theory’ as ‘tomorrow’s world’ I can not understand…
Tomorrow’s world was a flagship brand and its scandalous that its been left to die.
Come on BBC.. bring back tomorrow’s world… and bring it bang upto date… I might actually start watching the BBC. again if the shows got better.
Liz forgot one great improvement about driverless trains : It will eliminate a bunch of twats who always go on strike for every arbitrary reasons
Unless the controllers start striking as well
Riswan Ahmad P. DC Metro is just pure staff incompentece
Nah, the computers are gonna go on strike at some point...
Are you aware that people don't get paid when they're on strike? So they're not going to unless they have no other option!
they already do....
if they are running windoze instead of a linux based OS
Train captains in Hong Kong sleep while driving. Now you know why.
Step up your game America
Vital Mark our rail system may not be like europes, but what they have in terms of capacity, we make up for in tonnage. compared to us, the heaviest trains over in Europe are about 1000-2000 tons. in the states, your average freight train weighs in at 10,000 tons and are well over a mile in length.
Msts196 But those are freight trains...
Since our country is more toward freight trains. MASSIVE freight trains.
moving block is The signal.
I wonder what the failure rate for this system is. Here in Vancouver, we get delays that are sometimes so bad enough that we have to close down entire track sections.
Throw it back to 2014 when the entire system shutdown twice. One was thanks to a computer error which logged off all the trains and the other was in human error when an electrician screwed up and cut a communications cable.
Nonetheless, I find it very amazing that we can run trains run at frequencies of up to 90 seconds at rush hour. Something not very many cities have.
Sadly, the of Vancouver gives no damn and will complain nonstop and expect things that are literally inpossible. Its so bad that we still complain when we get service improvements. Sheesh.
I love my city - I just cant stand thise who complain at ever Translink does.
Juan Miguel Sanchez Pretty sure it was some thing with BC transit doing something in the 80s that caused all these problems.
Things do still go wrong
@@buizelproductions-movedtob7799 SkyTrain barely existed in the 80s. It didn't open until 1986.
Maybe it's just in our country, but i would be worried what is some idiot cuts the wire and/or steals it?
Otherwise awesome idea, but i would prefer GNSS - positioning for every train using satellites GPS/GLOBASS/GALILEO..
probably because unless they were electromagnetic you wouldn't notice they were gone and secondly magnets degrade over time admittedly is a long time but its hastened by stuff like fluctuations in temperature and what's going on in the surrounding environment
It happens in Denmark aswell with people stealing the cable. But only on the S-train thats manned. I don't think it have happen on the unmanned metro yet.
+Lukáš Artek But who would be stupid enough to stand on a railway, with trains coming every 15 minutes or whatever it is? It'd definitely take up more than 15 minutes to take out 25m of wire ^_^
If someone cuts the wire they system detects that there is a fault and stops all the trains in the area. GPS isn't accurate enough to be used for train position and dosent work underground.
+Jordan O'C (Xenro66) They run every 5-6 minutes :D
Nice
I wonder that DLR is a automatic train and I pretended to be a driver in DLR
What if the door gets stuck?
There will certainly be an explosion.
There goes my dream job of becoming a train conductor...
***** it appears to me thou art newth toth theth internetth.
@@lugosky02 seemeth that thou faileth to speak correctly the queens English.
Off with his head
Good that this is light rail and not conventional trains then
Long story short, CBTC
Yeahhhhhhhhh FTW lads (sry dream job for me :) )
at least the docklands light railway is better than the docklands light Failway which had a shadow bus service running.
Found the troll
People think money is bits of paper with an old woman on them. She is on welfare.
+truth1901 That's not true, the government promised to give her money in exchange for the royal land, so basically it is a let.
o0prince
The land belongs to me but was divided up before i was born.
truth1901 Tell your landlord about that, he might give you his house.
o0prince
Blue costumed humans prevent such justice.
*****
Apples are free. Commerce and government are one symbiotic entity that need each other to exist.
3D protein printers cannot come about by chance and then self replicate.
Physical is slowed down energy.
Gravity is an illusion.
What if someone cut the wire
Triggers a stop signal
It is not as safe the DLR as shown in this film., Anyone beeing on the tracks will face highly to be overun as the driverless trains has no obstacles sensors on the front. Try as passenger in the train or on the platform to stop an oncoming train. If one presses the alarm the train won't stop immediatly. The process to bring a DLR train to emergency stop is too lengthy and people lost their life whilst either fallen ill on the platform and fallen on the tracks or been pushed or lately standing on the track. , There is not enough time and the cctv operator room can't monitor all the stations and tracks, that's is what they say.
why not just use GPS to locate the trains and calculate their speed?
I just hope there will never be driverless planes.
Why use driverless train in UK when many people are looking for jobs...dont make sense to me.
More efficient and safer. Plus there is a member of staff on board every train anyway.
And cost people jobs. Because you know that's what humanity is all about making ourselves obsolete.
*making our lives easier. Sucks for them but i dont care
Jobs were created, not lost by the DLR.
A. It opened with this system, so how could any drivers lose their jobs if they haven’t had them to begin with?
B. There is an attendant on board every train. If necessary, they can open a panel at the front of the train that has drivers controls.
C. There are people working behind the scenes too, for example signalling, train maintenance, track maintenance etc.
shout out to everybody who is watching this video for homework
why not just use GPS?
Wow
0:02 no you're doing 40 according to your speedo.
nightw4tchman which in reality is likely to be about 36 mph.