I personally highly believe in forgivness and understanding, however, I don't think that means that you just do something bad and because you're forgiven it's all good. I think you actually have to try to make whatever you did right (or, in cases like this where there is no making it right, at least recognize that you did the wrong), and improve yourself as a person.
I was told as a child that because I was a sinner I will always be partly responsible for anything that happens to me, because I was flawed by nature. I was about 7 at the time, but distinctly remember how unfair that sounded. My Dad used to abuse me and I didn't feel like it was my fault. But my Sunday school teacher should be trusted, right? So little me asked "What about when I'm hurt? Like if I was hit" and they asked me "Well what did you do to provoke that person?" I started to blame myself. This stayed with me for years, until I went to therapy and was told that I was never in the wrong. I was an innocent child that deserved to be loved but unfortunately fell in the hands of corrupt misogynistic adults. The church has hurt too many of us
@@AegixDrakan It is awful, and I hope one day these type of stories can become a thing of the past. As for me, I'm now making progress with my mental health which is good 💙
“People are flawed” is the cheapest excuse there is. The church I grew up in (IFB) put such an emphasis on accountability, yet when I told leaders about abuse at home, nothing was done. Even bullying in the youth group was swept under the rug. It’s all about appearances. If they LOOK like a good church, then they must BE a good church.
I knew a girl who was raped by her father for years. The church forgave him & no one called the cops. The worst part was I found out later that when this girl was grown, she would let that same man watch her little daughter.
I figured out by middle school that the people who dress their kids up every Sunday and go to church do it mostly for appearances. They either want to "fit in" or worse they go to church so people will think they are more honest or ethical than maybe they really are.
Apologetic priest: “You should put your faith in god and his word, not in people who may be flawed” Person: “Oh okay, so leaving the Catholic Church to study my faith on my own is a good idea?” Priest: “ uhhh well, uh, No, not like that”
"you cant find god on your own! strength in numbers!" its crazy how much of you they want to control, even your spirituality and sense of self. if god wants me he wouldnt need a church to find me
I was in a Baptist church when I was a kid. My dad abused and beat my mother. The church knew and the told her to stay and forgive my dad because divorce was a sin. When she could no longer take it, she left. The church kicked us out. I was 7. When I was in my late 30s or early 40s, I contacted the church--the very same pastor who served when I was there. I asked why they did what they did. This man told me I was lying. He told me I was trying to start trouble. He told me it had never happened and that there was no record I'd ever even attended. I have my baptism certificate, signed by him.
"Divorce is a sin" might be the single thing Jesus actually said that caused the most problems in western history. For a lot of other shitty things, you can make more or less credible arguments to exonerate Jesus, but banning divorce is 100% on him.
@@TitusRedwindsome sects don't believe in that sort of repentance after sinning. But I might be wrong, I'm basing this off the idea of “death bed converson.
These people are like: "Hey, everybody does things we regret, such as maybe lying to someone or saying something you wished you didn't say. That's why we shouldn't hold people accountable when they assault others, because they are not perfect and same with you." My guy, there is a big difference between lying and assault.
Yet, these same people say that they should listen to pastors because "God put them in charge of you". A youth pastor I had was big on calling hypocrisy and he wouldn't be around any female that wasn't his wife or daughter. But these people says never rely on pastors but at the same time, they and the bible says to obey authority. So, how am I supposed to not take a preacher's words to heart if they are supposedly God's mouthpiece? My ex-youth pastor from back in 2006 to 2008 would preach about how "You always have to answer to someone above you, even God."
@@jakincordova Oh yeah, I've heard that too. Another reason that cemented my suspicions that churches are more concerned with power, influence and money than actually following their religious tenets. >.>
The new Testament is fan fiction. No one in the stories claims that this is something has someone else as author but fallible men.. They do not claim the Jesus has authorized it.
"Don't follow the people, follow God!" But aren't the people the ones who tell us HOW to follow God? If no one taught me about god and how to follow him I never would've figured it out on my own. That's how christianity (and all religion) works- it's learned from others and there's no other way to discover it.
And which god? It's an arbitrary accident of birth and history which religion you're indoctrinated into, but there's just as much supporting evidence for every religion as any other (i.e. none), so you can pick whichever of them you want and be equally right.
Furthermore, the religion is supposed to make you more like the deity you are supposedly following - if those who are the like the deity they worship are total assholes, then what does it say about the religion? It says that either their deity is an asshole or that the religion in question doesn’t have the transformative power that they claim it does - either answer is damning to the religion and thus the need on the part of the leadership to deflect blame and spin reality to keep their members from leaving.
The Bible itself, everyone who wants to find out how to be a Christian has to go to the Bible. You may first learn from someone else but it’s your responsibility to fact check to see who’s telling the truth. That’s how people end up in false doctrine like Jehovas Witness, Calvinism, Mormonism, Catholicism. That’s also how you don’t let other’s actions affect your stance because your faith isn’t built upon the words of any man in a pulpit.
As a sociologist and former student of Islamic theology (de-converted from Islam 1-2 years ago) your content resonates so deeply with me and my own experiences. Also, I find your videos very thoughtful and intellectually stimulating even as someone with an academic specialisation on these topics. It’s such a pity you don’t have a larger audience yet! Please don’t stop with your awesome work!
I also would like to know why you left? And I’m curious from your experience do you know if a lot of Muslims have religious trauma like a lot of ex Christians suffer from?
I hope there's other Christians on here willing to listen to what this man is saying and acknowledging what TRULY needs to be done among our communities in order to carryout the real mission Christ called us here for. Great video. Glad I took the time. It will be burned to disc and circulated in churches and bible studies.
@@ltchugacast131 Had to look that up, but yeah...If you mean the Mocsow method of prioritization. That seems an appropriate guideline to restructuring church leadership.
@@User-uj7nz That’s actually pretty funny no. The Moscow rules refers to all an old trope from like 80s spy stories wear like they would tie the laces of their shoes certain ways to find agents or you would go to a payphone and introduce yourself as Fred and the phone would play a tone you would record that you would then play into the speaker when you call another number to receive a message convoluted clandestine shit like that. It’s funny that something completely unrelated came up from that was still relevant to what we were talking about
I really respect that. I'm happy there's people in the community who are listening. Accepting there is a problem is a gigantic first step. Even as a non-christian, if these communities were to completely restructure themselves, truly open themselves as a place of worship of The Lord, I would be with you, every step of the way.
I was never hurt by a church. I was thrown out of Sunday School for asking questions that were too difficult for them to answer, but I never took it personally. I didn't even know I was supposed to think those obviously made up stories in the Bible were meant to be taken as though they actually happened.
I was introduced to the Bible first then I went and read the Greek mythology I found while living with my grandma. I thought: Wow the Greek/Roman gods are assholes aside from Hades & Hestia and Demeter😂
Same. I grew up atheist. I went to church with friends when I was around 7 or 8 (they gave out sno cones at the end & my parents didn’t buy many sweets). I started listening & read passages from the Bible while I was there. I went 4 or 5 times & I figured they were obviously parables like Aesop. But I’ve never been able to believe in a god, especially the Judeo-christian god. It blows my mind that ANYONE would believe it. It just seems so clear to me what a bunch of bullshit it is.
I barely made it through the first CCD class. I wouldn't go along with the make believe. I was that annoying kid who would figure out the magic trick and spoil it for everyone else, and therefore deemed too disruptive.
I was gifted a pair of books on dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals from a family friend when I was still attending Catholic Sunday School. When the teacher said dinosaurs and men lived together, I corrected her: my books were scientifically accurate and I'd read them over and over. She scolded me and put me in a corner, then told my Mom she wasn't being a good mother. My parents pretty much stopped going to church because it was a massive chore and they were tired working-class people, not because they hated God. But I'm happy that something so mundane saved me from religious abuse. If it's a choice between god and dinosaurs, I'll take dinosaurs every time.
My son's mom sent him to a Christian school which at the time didn't seem too awful to me. I grew up going to church and had no negative interactions and I felt he should choose for himself what he believes. He eventually came to me and told me he didn't believe any more because someone spoke at his school about having a near death or out of body experience and that strained his belief to the breaking point.
@@JohanKylander Read Numbers 31 - it’s all about the Hebrews killing the males and non-virgin females of a rival tribe and forcing the virgins into marriage (which is called “sex slavery” today).
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz and Judges 19-21, where God orders all killed but a couple hundred men. But in his mercy, let's them take captive a couple hundred virgin women for wives.
One of organized Christianity's biggest issue is any offense is treated as one against God, not the person you hurt. Then it becomes okay because you only need an entity that exists only in your head to forgive you, rather than making a change to better yourself. Of course, this is a generalization, but seems to be a trend.
This is a great comment. I haven’t looked at it that way before. It makes what these people do a bit more sensible now (not better, just helps me understand it better).
They are the worst kind of grifters honestly. Abusing people's faith for their own interests is disgusting, even more so if you're an actual believer. I do respect all religions, and religious people, but that is something I really can not forget.
They are the worst kind of grifters honestly. Abusing people's faith for their own interests is disgusting, even more so if you're an actual believer. I do respect all religions, and religious people, but that is something I really can not forget.
The idea of “sin” is ridiculous - if there is an Omni-max deity, this entity is in control of everything: thus nothing can happen that violates the will of this deity - and “sin” is defying the will of the deity (which is impossible by definition). So either the deity has limitations (and thus is not an Omni-max deity) or all that happens does so by the will of the deity - either way, the Judeo-Christian idea of “god” must be thrown out if you are intellectually honest.
Tbh, stripping the power of sex offenders, and comforting and supporting the people who got hurt is *exactly* what christians should be doing. I think it says a lot about nicene christians in terms of their priorities when they do the exact opposite. Not that it says anything about the truth of the religion, but rather, it shows where their priorities lay and how much they really believe what they preach.
@@Otome_chan311 Indeed, it is rather, *that they consistantly get away with it* , that shows us whether their allegedly all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful friend exists or not.
Perfect And this one "Not knowing how something worked used to seem like…magic. Now not knowing means it might be going wrong and I may not be able to fix it" So many good lines in that amazing game
I prefer Lovecraftian deities that are largely indifferent human ideas of “morality” - of gods that teach a doctrine of madness which inspires their followers to shout, kill, revel and enjoy themselves as the world is set afire with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom!
I think these apologetics talking heads are so distant from imagining a world without Christianity, they are missing the entire point. People aren’t voluntarily giving up their faith because they saw a religious leader fail. It’s seeing those figures in moral failure that breaks the illusion long enough for people to critically examine their beliefs in a new way.
Perhaps they're like what many of us believed when we were still in their churches, that is a world without Christianity would be bleak and life would be meaningless (but for the latter that's what philosophies like Existentialism are for). I suspect that's what makes many afraid to entertain their doubts and push them to the back of their minds, finding out their worldview is all based on a lie would probably be soul crushing to them.
@Kevin Jackson I see this phenomenon as the "ghost dance" of christianity. Although the term applied to Native American tribes in the mid-late 19th century when they saw their entire culture collapsing, I think in a more limited way that's what's going on here. xians see their power and numbers diminishing and its driving them crazy! Literally crazy in some cases.
@@deirdre108 hence all the concerns about how the only people left in the churches will be extremists since the more moderate people have mostly left. There was a meme in my church community that insisted that the only young people that were left in the church were those who were theologically ultra conservative, the more liberal and “lukewarm” ones had all left after graduating from Sunday school or so and I sincerely believed that alongside a couple of church friends (this was a couple of years ago back in college)
@@monus782 I know what you mean. I have a friend who goes to a liberal Episcopalian church--female minister, diverse, inclusive of all people, etc. and she says it's at best one quarter full on Sundays. She showed me a youtube video of what's happening with the Episcopalian churches in Africa, and it's opposite world--conservative, homophobic, misogynistic, etc. But the churches are full! You'd never think they were the same denomination.
This channel keeps me sane tbh. Living in the South... its hard to tell that there are people in the world, let alone the US, that arent default religious. Its brutal.
Also in the south. People don't take me seriously most of the time when I tell them I'm not religious. Or they keep asking " why, why, but, why, " family is ok with it after some time and personal life events but if I work a new job and the topic is brought up its always ( what church do you go to? You don't? Ok well... )
Ex-Catholic here, not too long ago I sincerely believed what the apologetics said as shown in this video (looking at you Catholic Answers) and since I was a bigoted and zealous jackass back then I probably would've gaslighted anyone who would've told me they left due to the abuse crisis ("it's just a bunch of bad priests" alongside some homophobic explanations like the ones the Church has come up with), or at least pretended to feel sorry for them while believing they were likely going to hell for apostasy. That and my reasoning for not leaving was very similar to the gaslighting shown here (especially as shown around 4:30), and being a Trad maybe I would've just blamed liberal and modernist Catholics and the "misinterpretation" around Vatican II for all the stuff going on in the Church, as usual. I left for other reasons eventually but I just can't believe how much I was simping for this institution back then (that's what happens when you buy into the "one true faith" shtick), but after all if you follow it to the letter Catholicism is a very authoritarian religion.
"People leave Church because they just want to sin" "People leave Church because they're disgusted by leaders' sins" Idk, wouldn't it be better to become a priest and then I could sin as much as I wanted without the looming threat of hell?
They're all saying "Don't lose faith in the church because people are flawed." Nobody is saying "Don't lose faith in people because the church is flawed."
"put your faith in God not in people" but ultimately everything you know about God comes from people. When you put your faith in Christianity, you are ultimately putting your faith in pastors, theologians, the people who wrote the bible, maybe your parents...even yourself if you think God is speaking to you...we can't just say everything is God until it turns out badly, and then suddenly well that's just people.
@@ekulio Whatever... new Topic! Ever used the reportbutton for good? Like it was originally intended to? I currently try to gather strength-in-numbers for something rather specific. Exactly tomorrow, i want many people to report the channel 'Normalizing Nudity'; the videos indivudally but also the Channel (those are 2 different Options). I dare you to take a look at that channel. You will surely find problems with it also, even if you ignore the extremly OFF Gender-Ratio there...
It gets even more hilarious when you realize the Bible itself was written by men... so who tf are you supposed to trust then? The voice in your head you think is god talking to you? Uhh, if you're gonna do that, then I recommend looking into some therapy.
Faith is a fickle thing; I personally am a materialist but I was raised by christens. The thing you must understand is Faith either needs no explanation or you do not understand it. This loops back where faith doesn't need explanations or logical sense, it just needs itself. I have faith, in science, that all will be explained with time in what can be measured. DO I need explanation no, because I have faith in it being true? The bible in the same way requires faith in that it is true as if it isn't what is? Technically nothing separates Christianity from Zeus or that I am God. Only the faith that is in those institutions from experience and majorities.
Dude.. coming across your channel has been so life changing for me. Christianity had a horrible effect on my life ever since being put thru private Christian school ad a child. Thank you for these personal, deep dives. I hope you continue the wonderful and honest content, cheers
Very narcissistic response. Not interested in the "sad story" of someone who is a victim of abuse? Callous. I wonder how many church leaders meet criteria for narcissism.
This argument is so isolating. I left the church for three years and recently went back. My faith has always been in Jesus and it hurts when a Christian tries to slap me with this annoying platitude. I was heavily abused by more than one church leader and when I held them accountable they called me unstable. What most Christians at the time didn’t understand was that I left to protect my deep faith. After a while I stopped explaining myself to people who hadn’t earned the right to hear my story. The tactic of guilting people into staying is a cult tactic. Do not fall for it. Call it by its name and warn the rest.
Bingo! Religion has an interest in keeping you "in the fold" so you can be exploited for money, power, self-aggrandizement for the ones at the top, etc., and if they lose you they will lose the source of their addiction!
@@Idkwtmmythandle2024 Bring up the priests molesting children thing, or the other countless atrocities people have committed in the name of god. I'm sure it won't work, but watching the mental gymnastics at work as they try to justify slavery and genocide is a sight to behold.
The annoying thing is that there's room for a good lesson in there. We are all people, we are all worthy of respect. Love everyone just because they are God's creation. Don't abuse other people, find the people who respect you. Hold people to account when they abuse people to prevent and repair the abuse. But no, instead the church says that a pastor's abuse should be covered up, that repentance fixes everything, that structures shouldn't be put in place to protect others from the pastor, that the victim should be blamed equally because they've done sin too, of course not to that same scale. It's disgusting.
Honestly I have no one in my life that I can share this with, and this is only a vaguely related comment to your video, but I have never felt such empathy and compassion towards others until after I started undoing what being indoctrinated did to me. Through atheism, I have become a better human, and you are one of the people I have to credit for helping me undo it all. So thanks
Just about every city (and a lot of towns) have atheist/agnostic Meetup groups. They might be an hour away by car, but well worth the drive to connect with them. You might be surprised to find out how many people are out there who are on the same page as you. :-)
"Everyone makes mistakes" Excuse me did you just compare me to murderers and sexual abusers? This is why I've never understood why the preconditions for getting into heaven are both insanely low and insanely high at the same time.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I heard once that "even Hitler could have gone to heaven if he turned to Jesus for forgiveness at the last second" like WHAT THE FUCK THAT'S INSANE
Whenever I see a female pastor in this video, I can't help but think of 1 Timothy 2:12. "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
When viewed from an objective standpoint, there's a lot A LOT of problematic statements in Paul's letters. It's really weird that they're put on the same pedestal as "love each other as you love yourself"
I’m so quick to click and like all your short religious topic videos before I fully watch them. And by the time I’m done watching, I wanna give them a million more thumbs up. They’re just so great and hit at the heart of deeper issues I was raised to believe but are hard to convey for people not raised as a Fundamentalist Christian. Please, *please* keep up the good work!!
Also, I have a really good saga about my mom and her “faith healing” that was related to my leaving the faith that I think really applies to this videos topic; if you’re featuring guests or stories on the show, I’d love to talk about it. And I ran a support group for ex-Fundies from 2012 to 2018 and although I technically left Christianity, I’m still constantly fascinated by Fundie culture and am always willing to support people who are doubting their faith and may be confused or worried about leaving!
Couldn't agree more. I found them several months ago, I've been listening to every new episode as it comes out, and now I'm in the process of listening to all the podcast episodes from the first one onward. I'm up to the Heaven Tourism episode. (I remember reading Heaven Is for Real with my mom when I was young and being sooo excited about it.) I can't get enough! I also just became a Patron.
I ended up leaving because when I had a mental health crisis my mom and dad thought that my mental instability was a 'demon' that they tried to 'excercise'. It obviously didnt work and it was so bizzarre it made Christianity seem like a complete joke. Left the faith shortly after and a lot of my mental instability subsided when I did. It was such a weight off my shoulders to be free of that fear mongering nonsense. Just one religion of thousands.
"everybody makes mistakes" yes but there's a huge difference between when i would constantly say r@c1st sh1t (which i did grow past) and systemically excusing and allowing csa.
In 2019 or so my grandmother’s church was in the new in our small town because one the youth leaders was being investing by the police after 3 boy came forward and said he’d done terrible things to them. It was then found out that he’d left another church for similar problems years before! And worse part is the people who hired him knew!!! And the had a whole church meeting basically condemning the children who stood up for themselves! People at the church had the audacity to say “ they just wanted to ruin his life!” And feel sorry for a pedo! My grandmother stayed at the church until this year because they don’t believe in masks or corona and supported the Orange man! Plus some of them where at the capital on “that day”! If I’m supposed to believe God has a good plan why are there so many bad people in churches!
I think people with a conscience tend to gravitate towards “liberal” churches. No wonder more fundamentalist churches will actually end up being composed of actual “bad” people who put religious dogma before humanity.
This is the argument I hear most often when I try to explain to Christians why I left the ministry and stopped believing. You captured my frustration well. Thank you for the work you are doing.
The guy who says focus on the message not the messenger, is overlooking the very glaring issue with that phrase, if the messenger isn't perfect why would the message be perfect? Gold medal for mental gymnastics
I despise these arguments, I left the Church just a few months back and I've already heard them so many times. Christians, instead of harassing people who don't believe in your religion, just be nice, ok? Stop attaching strings to human rights and common courtesy.
Great comment, thank you Mitchell! When I stopped attending church I was told that I was going to hell and must not love God, etc. It was pretty awful. I attend church now but look for ways to educate people to simply love one another and serve and stop the nonsense and hate.
Wow I needed this video. Thank you for making this. I was groomed and assaulted by my coworker at the church I grew up in and worked for 4 years at. At the same time, I was running the Middle and High School youth group all by myself (I was the youth pastor’s right hand person, but he quit because of his own bad experiences with the church and the lead pastor.) I stayed for a full year after I was assaulted, because if I left the youth group would have fallen apart. I was broken, exhausted, hurt, and deeply traumatized but I was guilted, gaslit, and my only support system that I had was my boyfriend (now my husband) and two of my closest friends on staff that were also being mistreated. I gave the lead pastor a 6 month heads up that I was going to quit about halfway into my final year working there and in all that time they waited til my final weeks for hire a replacement and it was my sister lol I left feeling betrayed, under valued, and empty. Everyone’s only concern for me was that I keep going to church despite how hard it was for me to even be in the building. Needless to say, I no longer attend that church and am currently deconstructing my faith. Your videos have helped me so much as I make sense of everything.
@@emsmith. they let him resigned so thankfully he’s not there anymore, but the people who enabled and excused his behavior are still very much in power there so it doesn’t bode well for the future.
Even moral Nihilists like myself tend to avoid abusing people because we know there are consequences for our behavior when people find out what happens - sure, there’s no “god” who will punish you with hellfire for raping a child but if the family finds out you may well find yourself on the business end of their weapons. If absolutely nothing else keeps you from being a total piece of shit, fear of consequences does - especially if you have no supposedly “divinely mandated” position of authority to hide behind...
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz consequentalism isn't just about "I don't want to be punished" it's about knowing that the action itself has ramifications on many levels. I don't hurt others because I fear retribution, I don't hurt others because it would be fucked up and negatively effect the world in more ways than one.
@@Purpleturtlehurtler I get what you are saying - I am just trying to say that fear of potential consequences is enough to keep people from being complete assholes in most circumstances: most assholes tend to be in positions of wealth and power that allow them to escape the consequences of their actions - bring in real consequences for their behavior and they will generally stop being assholes.
I very often feel like I'm looking in on a group I shouldn't when I watch these videos from people who deconverted. I was never a part of an organized religion. Not that I was raised being told there was no god, but that I was raised with no bias to believe anything. My mom trusted me to figure it out for myself, and it's honestly the best thing she could've done for me. But it makes me feel like an outsider looking in when I watch videos from former Christians talking about their experiences. I had no experience with science-denying creationists, churches covering up sexual abuse, or bizarre guilt trips when leaving a church. So for me watching this, this kind of stuff just makes me angry. It disgusts me that there are people out there that do those kind of things in the name of an old book and I'm so far removed from it that I just can't see how they rationalize it in their heads. Part of me gets it - it's what's been hammered into people's heads since childhood, but you'd think at some point an alarm goes off. I guess I'm kind of lucky for not having to go through this stuff, but I feel like...I dunno...I'm walking in on a private group meeting or something.
Yea, I have a similar experience, my grandparents wanted my parents to decide and my parents allowed me the same courtesy. I watched Sesame Street and kikaninchen with my brother on Sunday mornings. What happened to many ex-Christian folks is horrid.
Nobody is perfect is true, but churches are ultimately organizations who ask not just for faith in a God, but faith in the organization too. Something which is hard to maintain when said organization not only has "imperfect" people in seats of power but fiercely protects them too. Especially at the cost of their victims.
I found your channel amidst a serious crisis of faith. I couldn’t put my thoughts together though of why such a crisis was happening. Your evidence, personal experience, and pursuit of truth helped me find my way to a new understanding of what I want, how I want to give back, and best of all, who I really am. Thank you so much Trevor.
It all boils down to the idea that actions speak louder than words. All the honey words, apologies, and excuses will always remain empty until one takes up the responsibility to do something about it.
I wanna thank you. Watching these vids, I catch myself remembering when I agreed with the people in these clips and now I can see how twisted my life was. You put into words what I couldn't.
Oh, how I remember this double bind. I was supposed to be so perfect and consistent, so that I don't present a bad witness to the unsaved. But if a leader or teacher in the church did wrong or did me wrong, I was supposed to ignore it
Just wanted to thank you for making these. I just recommended them to a friend because they've really helped me come to terms with the way the church warped my thinking. I really enjoy the podcast but these video essays are my favorite, I hope you keep making them.
Can you do a video on biblical contradictions, or as my dad loves to call them...”paradoxes”. It’s one of the most frustrating things when dealing with Christians, because you can’t win with logic. When you point out that gods actions are often at odds with his supposed good nature, they will always retort that it’s not actually contradictory, it just looks that way 🙄
I've had conversations with friends about these and it always baffles me that it doesn't bother them, they just brush it off and see no problems. "They're not contradictions, we humans just don't have the capacity to understand!"
If a human did any of the crap God does in the Bible they would be locked up or killed but God is good because God is good because the Bible says so.Me*in Bender voice*:Hahahahahaha Oh wait you're serious? Let me laugh even harder. Ahahahahahahaha I then walk away😁
God works in "mysterious way"...which is a really, REALLY convenient catch all term to justify things that clearly don't make sense. We just couldn't POSSIBLY begin to understand why its totally isn't hypocritical or contradictory.
Coming from someone whose mother was a youth pastor and my older sister (along with at least one other girl) were molested by a deacon in the Assembly of God church I went to as a kid... You're not wrong. Your hurt is not invalid. While I agree with the concept of "Just because people hurt you, you shouldn't leave the church", I know the reality is this: If nothing in the situation changes, you have to change it. There is a MASSIVE difference in being "hurt" and being VIOLATED. Hurt can be (easily) forgiven, being violated cannot be. What we ran into with my sister is the pastor wanted to sweep it under the rug. My father (another deacon) threatened to involve the police when confronting the pastor about it after we discovered the whole story and that the molester also grabbed the breast of my friend. What happened? The pastor drove my family out of the church "because they were trouble-makers". After that, every family with kids left because my parents were NOT silent on what happened. However, the guy got away with it. No one called the police, a fact that enrages me to this day, 25 years later.
Thank you so much for making this video. I had that worldview and went on Facebook rants about it fairly often. That's been challenged in the past year, hearing all these stories of church abuse I realized what a cop-out "don't blame God for what the church did to you" was and how potentially hurtful and dismissive I was to my friends. Your video summed it up in the words I needed. I repent from this attitude. Instead of trying to tell victims of abuse or even just disillusionment how wrong they are, Christians need to get the church to do better and stop saying "You just haven't found the right church", "People let you down, not God" etc.
This has big abusive relationship redflags YOU should always forgive and never want accountability, otherwise you're a bad person Of course the only people not effected by this rule are those who don't care and are often in positions of power or authority But even then you can't take issue with it, otherwise you're a bad person
“I understand what it’s like to be disappointed at times,” is such a revealing statement. That you can just be “disappointed,” by rampant and systematically hidden abuse and not afraid or in pain because of it is a statement of privilege.
"The reason you're not a christian is because you don't want to submit to god", *want* and *submit* are the key words there-Why do you christians want to submit to god, and why do you want a god who wants submission to exist?
@@misterauctor7353 ??? It shouldn't be a reason at all. Name one parent who tells people, "oh, we decided to have a kid so he could worship us". Stupid, and proves religion's flaws.
When I was working in ministry the pastor would brood over me and made me feel useless and unworthy to work for him. It didn't kill my faith at the time, though later on critical and rational thinking did that. The worst part was that my family would side with the pastor over me when I complained to them about what was happening. That situation definitely made me more cautious in tolerating how I am treated at work.
I'm sorry you had to go through that, it's really frustrating when someone gaslights you all the time, especially when it comes from family (I would know)
I didn't quit because of imperfect pastors, I quit because I studied the Bible cover to cover 4 times from the ages of 12 to 24 and realized it was garbage.
That was one of the reasons I left. There's no pillars holding up the world. There's no dome over the world. There's no cornerstone. Genesis isn't literal because dinosaurs and people didn't coexist. Just realizing how obviously made up it is was enough to show me that that 'holy' book wasn't inspired from a God because it's all wrong. Not to mention obvious contradictions that causes frequent debate amongst Christians.
@Senior Venus Digital What a horseshit excuse. There are blatant claims in the Bible that contradict each other. And if it’s the infallible word of god then god wouldn’t have allowed there to be contradictions… sorry… differences in subjective opinion that would cause people to go astray. Or, let me guess, is that just another unnecessary test of God’s so he can thin the herd even more despite wanting his children in heaven with him? What nonsense.
"If I have to put my faith in God instead of people, wouldn't that mean that I don't need the church to be a christian? What would be the point of associating with people and forming religious communities if we are not going to take accountability and change when we break our principles or do questionable things?" I used to think about this when I was departing from my faith as a JW, and was dissapointed to be encouraged to stay in the religion no matter what, even if I had doubts, because believing in any other way was wrong, according to the JW.
You actually don't need the building "church" to be a Christian, when one is accepts Christ, the father and the holy spirit and follow their guidance you become a Christian. There is no need to go or stay with such gatherings they are not required. And church theologically means the body of Christ so ones you accept Jesus as your saviour you become a church. To be a Christian is to simply be a good person, follow God, help others in need and be light in the place of darkness. Questioning your faith does not mean leaving your faith. God is patient with us and he understands our trouble. Please take you time. Accountability to God is very important and anyone that says something else is wrong. Paul persecuted Christians and Jesus made him blind and then tells Ananis that paul will suffer a great deal for his faith and he did suffer a lot then other apostles because God holds people accountable. David lost his son and a child and later on was on the run from Absolam ( which was an absolute shame for a king) after committing adultery and murder. There are even more but I hope you get the point.
@@sharahlousia6460 Oh, I didn't mean the physical place at all, just, you know, as a JW you're encouraged to only associate with people inside the religion, and not really question anything if things seem off in any regard. Anyways, thanks for your words, I did consider just changing denominations at some point, but after a lot of trouble and thinking, I'm living my life as an agnostic-atheist now, and have been pretty happy. If a god does exist, well, I hope that in the end they can appreciate my honesty as a non-believer, and that I still tried doing good for others, even if it was for reasons other than salvation and piety.
@@bbernie I am not familiar with JW because I am not an American, but I heard it is a cult and what they are doing in Christ name is wrong it's good you came out of it. Good wishes to you.
"Don't be misleaded by Church leaders, just follow Jesus." Great. Just tell Jesus to stop hiding in Heavens, come back to Earth and give a public interview.
"You're assuming that there's a standard...what is the standard of goodness that you're expecting people to live up to?" 😳 The actual...piss poor low standard...of not being a sex offender?? Is that too unrealistic a standard of goodness?
That sermon meme is unintentionally accurate. If churches were honest and absolutely literal about what the Bible says, a lot more people would be struck earlier by how incoherent and outdated it is as a text.
interesting that an omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving being would set up his church in such a way that makes it so easy for the people in power to get away with so much horrible abuse in the first place. 🤔 Best not to question it,, he does work in mysterious ways!
@@smiklosovic8971 I mean, pretty sure alot of those churches believe much of the Bible is to be taken literally so it's the same God that drowned everyone once, commanded several genocides and sent bears to eat the people who made fun of one of his prophets (2 Kings 2:23-25), and that's without mentioning the hell stuff. If that's the case I wouldn't be surprised any of this is happening, it's indeed part of his plan and he's probably having a kick out of it
I began to realize I was not feeling satisfied and I was so frustrated with Christianity (Evangelical chuch)and I was also saddened when I realized it was more about the people rather than God himself. I began to ask myself how can a group call themselves united when Christianity has multiple branches and everyone keep throwing shame at others. I realized that it was more about pushing their agenda to you (Bi discriminated in an homophobic (literally a pastor put a 180 in his message to encourage kids to be pray straight (I was brave enough to stand my ground and not follow the crowd) and to go to conversion therapy) camp with toxic messages and people who clearly shouldn't have taking to young adults and children). I was hating myself and feeling so unsatisfied until I realized the problem was that I was listening to what the people say (contradicting each other too) instead of what God really had to say. I decided to lose my faith in the church and try to open my heart and mind to what God had to say... and I felt much happier and free. I no longer felt bad for not being Christian enough and I'm starting to see the world with new eyes, enjoying the little things and start to embrace the fact that I don't have to be like anyone else. Love your videos, they are so inspirational and I learn so much from them. Thank you💙
i never got abused by anyone growing up, we had some pastors get removed from our church and i heard whisperings that they abused some kid, but never heard anything concrete or specific. No, the reason *my* family left the church was because after my confirmation, the very first adult bible study class i went to began with the adults passing around a list of local businesses and saying "these are companies that we're going to ask the congregation to boycott because they said 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'" and my mom and i just looked at each other like o-o and left
Wait... @9:15 when commenting.. Don’t these people realize that Jesus says that the kind of people who hurt people through their church position and abuse etc are the ones that he says would be better off thrown into the sea with a millstone around their neck? As peaceful as I try to be... there’s a part of me who’s all for that ngl
I grew up in the GARBC (General Association of Regular Baptist Churches). I worked in the nursery and went through all their training regarding accountability and all that. Looking back, it was all focused on making sure that ppl working/volunteering for the church had alibis and some kind of adult witness to everything. Where it failed ofc was the fact that they always paired married couples in the nursery or in Sunday School classes whenever they could - and married couples tend to cover for each other a lot. My brother and I didn't like the church and didn't want to go. Mom got kicked out of nursery duty and was banned from working in the nursery again by the associate pastor based on an accusation - the pastor didn't follow the established procedure and just banned her from the nursery. My brother and I didn't know that, but that's also why Mom and Dad had basically quit going to church as well. Then one Sunday night, Mom and I headed to church together (despite neither of us wanting to go, but hadn't told the other). We arrived and found that it was an unscheduled business meeting (those are usually the last Sunday evening service of the month). The same associate pastor who failed to follow church discipline procedures had been accused by the parents of a girl in the youth group of having an "inappropriate relationship" with their teenage daughter. When confronted, he admitted it and he confessed to it and apologized to the church that night. He then resigned and sat down in the pew beside his pregnant wife and 2 year old son. At no point did he apologize to his wife or anything. The church considered the matter settled. At no point did anyone even consider calling the cops. It was more than a bit of a shock to me because the church's own procedures and rules should have made it very difficult for him to develop an "inappropriate relationship" with a member of the youth group. That meant he had to have been intentionally and knowingly breaking those rules in order to do so. They claimed it was caught early so "nothing happened," but it really bothered me that it could even reach that point. But I think what bothers me the most is that in retrospect, the rules were all about avoiding accusation, not about avoiding situations entirely - and the way that the various rules were implemented, those situations are almost encouraged to happen (your spouse was supposed to be there, so if they weren't, they were encouraged to lie and cover for you to avoid getting in trouble for not being there). And everything I've seen in other churches leads me to believe that the same fundamental problems exist in most churches - they set things up so everyone has an alibi and then if/when it comes up? They handle it all in-house and try to keep it quiet.
I had an old buddy recently message me, said something like, "You're one of the nicest people I've ever met, and I just want to make sure you're right with god so I can meet you in heaven." That sentence blew my mind. I had to ask him how many people he thought there were who had already died and currently burned in hell and would still qualify as "nicest person you ever met." Because for every one of those, there's 10,000 strikes against your god. In America we do things a certain way, people are innocent until proven guilty. The christian god does things a little different, people are guilty until proven subservient. It doesn't actually matter if you ever sinned or not, it's just about the rituals.
Exmormon here and my jaw dropped when Richard g Scott was included. I know just like many Christian cults they victim blame but I hadn't seen this clip from their biannual conference. Smh. It's just sad.
Trying to get my own records removed. Yeah, Mormons are fucking awful. The core is rotten, and they refuse to take any accountability for their homiphobia, sexism, racism, ect. That's when I realized the Mormon church is a sham, along with all other organized religions and groups.
The church's insistence that "all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord" is absolutely evil. Acting like telling a white lie once and sexual assault are on the same level of severity is reprehensible
Sorry if this is too unrelated, but this Video-Title just makes me think so hard of Kent Hovind; one of the most toxic Christians i’ve ever seen. Ya know: The kind of walking Image-Damage? A man so disgusting that i could vomit all over him; which YES, are HARSH words, i know. But what can i do but say harsh words? Use the reportbutton as it was originally intended? ...Oh, wait, i could actually do that. ?!
Knowing the Christian God condones slavery, is enough for me; including the numerous other hypocrisies/contradictions/absurdities/atrocities acceptable by religion. I’m good on organized religion, especially in America where it seems to lead to bigots empowering themselves, and justifying their racism, nationalism, and immorality.
A big cop-out I heard was the leader at my Newman center arguing that a student there harassing me for my disability wasn't a big deal because Priests have done a lot worse to children than what I experienced and that didn't make me leave the catholic church.
Priest who worked at the church I was a youth minister at was found to be a molester. He had left many years prior to me starting there, so I don't think I ever met him, but I will say that prior to it being uncovered, he was loved by the congregation. Sick.
Just wanted to thank you for making these videos. I left the church 12 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made but I am still unpacking all the damage done over the 18 years I was a part of it. Sometimes it really does feel like I left an abusive relationship, I was lied to, I was manipulated, I was made to feel like if I was in pain it was my own fault and yet part of me sometimes longs to go back because even though I know it wasn't healthy for me and I was the worst version of myself when I was in it.. there were good times too. Most of the people I know are either still a part of it or never were so it's hard to talk about. It's been so therapeutic to watch these videos and remember why I left and unpack the damage the church did to me, they can be hard to watch and I imagine they are hard to make but they really help.
Don't go back. A religion that says you're nothing without Jesus will easily wreak havoc on anyone's self esteem. Screw their religion and any other one designed to subjugate us.
I'm a non-binary lesbian who grew up in the church. I had a lot of traumatizing things happen there, and it wasn't until I started watching your videos that I realized how negatively impactful my time there was. I thought it was something I had successfully moved on from, but I've started to notice so many of my issues stem from my abuse within the church. Having someone you respect betray your trust is awful in any circumstance, and it's especially harmful if they have a significant position of power over you. I was hurt by someone, and upon telling my leaders, I was out cast by my peers and told I was overreacting. You have no idea how much distrust that can instill in someone, and its still something I heavily struggle with to this day. I often question the motives of everyone around me to an incredibly unhealthy level. I'm going to therapy now to correct this and figure things out. I'm learning to tell myself that my anger is justified, that I'm allowed to be angry at Christians - not just the ones that hurt me. So uh, thank you. Thank you for these videos. I watch you religiously (lol), and your arguments help instill a lot of long-lost confidence in myself.
During a previous time in my life I would've chalked it up to divine intervention but I still have to say that it's a great coincidence that you've made a video on the topic that's been stuck in my head lately. So thanks :)
God, I wish you were a channel when I was a teenager. I would have been watching this channel every day. This is the logical look of religion I've been wanting. Good stuff man, new fan of the podcast and your content.
It's interesting the way you start the sentence. I once talked to a Christian who tried to say the fact that I used the word "god" offhandedly in a sentence while talking to him proves on some level I believe in Jesus Christ, I just needed to admit it to myself.
I continue to be blown away by how much effort goes into your videos. Not too Not the script & message…but finding SO many clips? I can’t even imagine how much time is committed to this. Thank you so very much. I am always moved by these videos and find them so entertaining too. Also, I have a history with I’ll Be Honest so I always love it when I see those clips thrown in. Just 2 years with that organization and I’m still working to undo the damage over a decade later. Thanks for all you do!!!
Holy shit, does this video reasonate with me. Back in 2018, I wanted to get serious about my faith and I started to go more regularly to the church to meet people around my age, because all of my friends were "of the world" and I didn't want to be too influenced to go to their side; I was 14 years old. I started going to these teenage meetings regularly. I felt singled out everytime I went to these, because nobody truly minded me. They kept having side conversations, and no subject reasonated with me. But I thought that that was all that I carried ever since I lost my faith: I thought I just felt alone because I was introverted, and that I left the faith only out of asking too many questions with no answers or half-answers and fallacies. A year or so after I started questioning, my mom bought herself a cross necklace and I thought it looked nice. My grandmother called her and she started a rant about how "real christians" don't use crosses, and that's a thing that Catholics, the "fake christians", use. She compared the cross to idolatry, and she still had the audacity to say that she was only saying that because she loves my mom. My mom was mad, and she broke the necklace chain; I, however, had an anxiety attack inside of my room. I didn't know why I had the anxiety attack until I looked deeper, and I realized that I didn't leave the faith _only_ because I didn't reasonate with it anymore, but out of religious trauma. I didn't only feel alone in church, I also felt observed: there were times in which I did or said something wrong, and the leaders overreacted. I know now that the things I've said about them were wrong and petty, but I was just a kid and I should've been talked to calmly so I could learn from my mistakes; instead, a woman told me that I was "too young to have an opinion", and that I had "disrespected the pastor, who was just trying to help", and once another woman mistook a praise I've given to her as passive-agression and when I denied I ever had been passive-agressive at her, she sent me a screenshot of the message. I didn't send the message to her, and she had it with her. I realized no conversation I had with these people was truly safe, and they would send what I was saying that was wrong in their eyes. I felt unsafe, and I tried to hide under God and Jesus, and then I started slipping away from them aswell. I was desperate and I tried to hang on longer, I didn't want to blame them for whatever happened when I was 14-16, but now I just don't buy any of that anymore. It was all of that that went through my head when I had the anxiety attack, it was remembering that my grandmother was doing the same thing I tried so desperately to stay away from. I still have the cross my mom bought as a souvenir, as weird as it is. Sometimes I want to use it just to spite my grandmother, since I actually am a "fake christian". Maybe I will, one day.
I think the most powerful phrase I heard way too late in life was "You don't get to tell people what they feel" in response to "That's not offensive". Offense is felt on the part of the person offended but is triggered by the actions of the offender. Whether or not the offender finds it offensive is immaterial to whether or not offense has occurred.
As an ex-Evangelist(I cannot consider myself a Protestant at all), this resonated with me the most. I genuinely hurt people back than at my youth, I cannot even do anything to change myself and yet when I ask for forgiveness or seeking this God they worship. Instead of giving me a helping hand, they always wanted me to seek Him not knowing my problems at all, although it doesn't help that Pinoy culture makes you ashamed to say that you did something wrong and you want to rectify it. So long story short, I have internal problems that plague me since my childhood and they did nothing to help. So I ended up no longer connected to my own church when they spew the mystified things about Roman persecution was just the excuse I use to cut-off with the Church and the Christian god permanently for good. Now I am just a plain old Pagan leaning towards Buddhism and Ruism. And Luckily my clan is fine with it, maybe not my Mother who is just tolerating me, but other than that I got the lucky bag.
I wondered about that even when I was still a kid and being confirmed as a church member. If it's about a personal relationship with God above everything else, why all this horse hockey about the lectures and songs and temples every week?
Church means the body of Christ so if a person accepts the holy spirit then that person is a church. At first century people were taught about the gospel through the word of mouth so someone like an apostle for example goes and teaches them the basics of the Christian gospel and move to another place, because the believers back then didn't have resources as this generation. So these gatherings were a way to pray and discuss and learn about the gospel together there was not a church pastor like we have now and this custom revolved into the current Church setup, going to church is not a necessary to be a Christian. But good denominations do provide other kinds of support which are useful to different communities like food, resources etc.
a power structure built around forgiving abusers sure does attract a lot of abusers
I personally highly believe in forgivness and understanding, however, I don't think that means that you just do something bad and because you're forgiven it's all good. I think you actually have to try to make whatever you did right (or, in cases like this where there is no making it right, at least recognize that you did the wrong), and improve yourself as a person.
Air null Amen.
I was told as a child that because I was a sinner I will always be partly responsible for anything that happens to me, because I was flawed by nature. I was about 7 at the time, but distinctly remember how unfair that sounded. My Dad used to abuse me and I didn't feel like it was my fault. But my Sunday school teacher should be trusted, right? So little me asked "What about when I'm hurt? Like if I was hit" and they asked me "Well what did you do to provoke that person?"
I started to blame myself. This stayed with me for years, until I went to therapy and was told that I was never in the wrong. I was an innocent child that deserved to be loved but unfortunately fell in the hands of corrupt misogynistic adults.
The church has hurt too many of us
@@simona_sigmund1001 I seriously feel for you. :( It's just awful.
@@AegixDrakan It is awful, and I hope one day these type of stories can become a thing of the past. As for me, I'm now making progress with my mental health which is good 💙
“People are flawed” is the cheapest excuse there is. The church I grew up in (IFB) put such an emphasis on accountability, yet when I told leaders about abuse at home, nothing was done. Even bullying in the youth group was swept under the rug. It’s all about appearances. If they LOOK like a good church, then they must BE a good church.
You don't become one of the world population's leading religions by being truthful and kind, unfortunately.
I knew a girl who was raped by her father for years. The church forgave him & no one called the cops. The worst part was I found out later that when this girl was grown, she would let that same man watch her little daughter.
I figured out by middle school that the people who dress their kids up every Sunday and go to church do it mostly for appearances.
They either want to "fit in" or worse they go to church so people will think they are more honest or ethical than maybe they really are.
@@susanmaggiora4800 what happened to her
Yeah, they make the excuses, but without the intent of ever even trying to improve.
There’s a big difference between being an imperfect person and just not giving a shit about how your actions effect others.
Agree 100%
Nicely said
Yes preach it
Admitting you’re an imperfect person is like saying the sky is blue. Using it to justify abuse is like using sponges to combat the rising sea levels.
*affect. I agree though.
Apologetic priest: “You should put your faith in god and his word, not in people who may be flawed”
Person: “Oh okay, so leaving the Catholic Church to study my faith on my own is a good idea?”
Priest: “ uhhh well, uh, No, not like that”
And what about some evangelical preachers who are putting Trump on a pedestal? Idolatry and hypocrisy!
"you cant find god on your own! strength in numbers!" its crazy how much of you they want to control, even your spirituality and sense of self. if god wants me he wouldnt need a church to find me
@@andrewtodaro2874 You got THAT right! The Cult of Trump!
Heheh, yeah. They want you to stay, but hold your nose.
Leaving the church means no sacraments, which means no reconciliation, which means Hell
I was in a Baptist church when I was a kid. My dad abused and beat my mother. The church knew and the told her to stay and forgive my dad because divorce was a sin. When she could no longer take it, she left. The church kicked us out. I was 7. When I was in my late 30s or early 40s, I contacted the church--the very same pastor who served when I was there. I asked why they did what they did. This man told me I was lying. He told me I was trying to start trouble. He told me it had never happened and that there was no record I'd ever even attended. I have my baptism certificate, signed by him.
If divorce is a sin, can't you just go through with it and repent afterwards? Funny how they never offer that as a solution.
"Divorce is a sin" might be the single thing Jesus actually said that caused the most problems in western history. For a lot of other shitty things, you can make more or less credible arguments to exonerate Jesus, but banning divorce is 100% on him.
@@TitusRedwindsome sects don't believe in that sort of repentance after sinning.
But I might be wrong, I'm basing this off the idea of “death bed converson.
A pastor lying??!!
Get outta town!
In all seriousness, I’m sorry for the good half of your family and the pain you all had to go through.
Sounds about right for churches. Man beating woman? Ok. Woman leaves man? NO! Then throw in gaslighting and lies for fun.
These people are like: "Hey, everybody does things we regret, such as maybe lying to someone or saying something you wished you didn't say. That's why we shouldn't hold people accountable when they assault others, because they are not perfect and same with you." My guy, there is a big difference between lying and assault.
My church used to say “all sins are equal in the eyes of god”
Being disappointed by the lies of our leaders is a standard part of life. Being assaulted by them should never be shrugged off or accepted.
@@jakincordova My immediate thought whenever that came up was always "Oh then I guess if I'm gonna sin I should just go wild!"
Yet, these same people say that they should listen to pastors because "God put them in charge of you". A youth pastor I had was big on calling hypocrisy and he wouldn't be around any female that wasn't his wife or daughter.
But these people says never rely on pastors but at the same time, they and the bible says to obey authority. So, how am I supposed to not take a preacher's words to heart if they are supposedly God's mouthpiece? My ex-youth pastor from back in 2006 to 2008 would preach about how "You always have to answer to someone above you, even God."
@@jakincordova Oh yeah, I've heard that too. Another reason that cemented my suspicions that churches are more concerned with power, influence and money than actually following their religious tenets. >.>
„God’s word“ aka texts that have been written, changed and translated by humans over a period of 2000 years.
Gods Sword: Reforged
The new Testament is fan fiction. No one in the stories claims that this is something has someone else as author but fallible men.. They do not claim the Jesus has authorized it.
@@TorianTammas new flash: all of it is fanfiction. And the New Testament is sill vastly better than the barbaric old one.
Fanfiction is written better than the Bible.Well some of it is😁
They must have skipped Jeremiah 8:8?
"Don't follow the people, follow God!" But aren't the people the ones who tell us HOW to follow God? If no one taught me about god and how to follow him I never would've figured it out on my own. That's how christianity (and all religion) works- it's learned from others and there's no other way to discover it.
And which god? It's an arbitrary accident of birth and history which religion you're indoctrinated into, but there's just as much supporting evidence for every religion as any other (i.e. none), so you can pick whichever of them you want and be equally right.
Furthermore, the religion is supposed to make you more like the deity you are supposedly following - if those who are the like the deity they worship are total assholes, then what does it say about the religion?
It says that either their deity is an asshole or that the religion in question doesn’t have the transformative power that they claim it does - either answer is damning to the religion and thus the need on the part of the leadership to deflect blame and spin reality to keep their members from leaving.
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz or those people just "weren't TRUE followers"
@@smiklosovic8971 Gotta love the “no true Scotsman” fallacy...
The Bible itself, everyone who wants to find out how to be a Christian has to go to the Bible. You may first learn from someone else but it’s your responsibility to fact check to see who’s telling the truth. That’s how people end up in false doctrine like Jehovas Witness, Calvinism, Mormonism, Catholicism. That’s also how you don’t let other’s actions affect your stance because your faith isn’t built upon the words of any man in a pulpit.
As a sociologist and former student of Islamic theology (de-converted from Islam 1-2 years ago) your content resonates so deeply with me and my own experiences. Also, I find your videos very thoughtful and intellectually stimulating even as someone with an academic specialisation on these topics.
It’s such a pity you don’t have a larger audience yet! Please don’t stop with your awesome work!
Exmuslim here, why’d you leave?
I read “Scientologist” at first glance lol
@@mads597 SAME LMAO I was like “buddy you’re in the wrong place”
I also would like to know why you left? And I’m curious from your experience do you know if a lot of Muslims have religious trauma like a lot of ex Christians suffer from?
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. And you don't owe me or anyone else a rationale for your big life decision.
I hope there's other Christians on here willing to listen to what this man is saying and acknowledging what TRULY needs to be done among our communities in order to carryout the real mission Christ called us here for. Great video. Glad I took the time. It will be burned to disc and circulated in churches and bible studies.
So it’s the Moscow rules then?
@@ltchugacast131 Had to look that up, but yeah...If you mean the Mocsow method of prioritization. That seems an appropriate guideline to restructuring church leadership.
@@User-uj7nz That’s actually pretty funny no. The Moscow rules refers to all an old trope from like 80s spy stories wear like they would tie the laces of their shoes certain ways to find agents or you would go to a payphone and introduce yourself as Fred and the phone would play a tone you would record that you would then play into the speaker when you call another number to receive a message convoluted clandestine shit like that. It’s funny that something completely unrelated came up from that was still relevant to what we were talking about
@@ltchugacast131 Well look at that. I learned two new things!
I really respect that. I'm happy there's people in the community who are listening. Accepting there is a problem is a gigantic first step.
Even as a non-christian, if these communities were to completely restructure themselves, truly open themselves as a place of worship of The Lord, I would be with you, every step of the way.
I was never hurt by a church. I was thrown out of Sunday School for asking questions that were too difficult for them to answer, but I never took it personally. I didn't even know I was supposed to think those obviously made up stories in the Bible were meant to be taken as though they actually happened.
I was introduced to the Bible first then I went and read the Greek mythology I found while living with my grandma. I thought: Wow the Greek/Roman gods are assholes aside from Hades & Hestia and Demeter😂
Same. I grew up atheist. I went to church with friends when I was around 7 or 8 (they gave out sno cones at the end & my parents didn’t buy many sweets). I started listening & read passages from the Bible while I was there. I went 4 or 5 times & I figured they were obviously parables like Aesop. But I’ve never been able to believe in a god, especially the Judeo-christian god. It blows my mind that ANYONE would believe it. It just seems so clear to me what a bunch of bullshit it is.
I barely made it through the first CCD class. I wouldn't go along with the make believe. I was that annoying kid who would figure out the magic trick and spoil it for everyone else, and therefore deemed too disruptive.
I was gifted a pair of books on dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals from a family friend when I was still attending Catholic Sunday School. When the teacher said dinosaurs and men lived together, I corrected her: my books were scientifically accurate and I'd read them over and over. She scolded me and put me in a corner, then told my Mom she wasn't being a good mother.
My parents pretty much stopped going to church because it was a massive chore and they were tired working-class people, not because they hated God. But I'm happy that something so mundane saved me from religious abuse. If it's a choice between god and dinosaurs, I'll take dinosaurs every time.
My son's mom sent him to a Christian school which at the time didn't seem too awful to me. I grew up going to church and had no negative interactions and I felt he should choose for himself what he believes.
He eventually came to me and told me he didn't believe any more because someone spoke at his school about having a near death or out of body experience and that strained his belief to the breaking point.
Sexual abuse in the church is a “petty” reason? Tf
You have to remember how little many Christians actually think about sexual related crimes if it isn't between gay people.
Yeah that was abhorrent. I’m not easily offended but that was down right disgusting.
@@xvelvet3247 To be fair, the Bible's pretty lenient on straight rape.
@@JohanKylander Read Numbers 31 - it’s all about the Hebrews killing the males and non-virgin females of a rival tribe and forcing the virgins into marriage (which is called “sex slavery” today).
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz and Judges 19-21, where God orders all killed but a couple hundred men. But in his mercy, let's them take captive a couple hundred virgin women for wives.
One of organized Christianity's biggest issue is any offense is treated as one against God, not the person you hurt. Then it becomes okay because you only need an entity that exists only in your head to forgive you, rather than making a change to better yourself. Of course, this is a generalization, but seems to be a trend.
This is a great comment. I haven’t looked at it that way before. It makes what these people do a bit more sensible now (not better, just helps me understand it better).
They are the worst kind of grifters honestly. Abusing people's faith for their own interests is disgusting, even more so if you're an actual believer.
I do respect all religions, and religious people, but that is something I really can not forget.
They are the worst kind of grifters honestly. Abusing people's faith for their own interests is disgusting, even more so if you're an actual believer.
I do respect all religions, and religious people, but that is something I really can not forget.
The idea of “sin” is ridiculous - if there is an Omni-max deity, this entity is in control of everything: thus nothing can happen that violates the will of this deity - and “sin” is defying the will of the deity (which is impossible by definition).
So either the deity has limitations (and thus is not an Omni-max deity) or all that happens does so by the will of the deity - either way, the Judeo-Christian idea of “god” must be thrown out if you are intellectually honest.
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz tbf, the teaching is that we WERE given free will by god, it's kind of moreso we have to choose to follow him.
Are people asking too much that sex offenders be stripped of power in the church? That those they've hurt get proper support and love?
Tbh, stripping the power of sex offenders, and comforting and supporting the people who got hurt is *exactly* what christians should be doing. I think it says a lot about nicene christians in terms of their priorities when they do the exact opposite. Not that it says anything about the truth of the religion, but rather, it shows where their priorities lay and how much they really believe what they preach.
@@Otome_chan311 Indeed, it is rather, *that they consistantly get away with it* , that shows us whether their allegedly all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful friend exists or not.
To quote Angus from Night in the Woods, "I believe in a universe that doesn't care and in people who do."
I like it
Perfect
And this one
"Not knowing how something worked used to seem like…magic. Now not knowing means it might be going wrong and I may not be able to fix it"
So many good lines in that amazing game
Gregg rulz ok
I prefer Lovecraftian deities that are largely indifferent human ideas of “morality” - of gods that teach a doctrine of madness which inspires their followers to shout, kill, revel and enjoy themselves as the world is set afire with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom!
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz cringe
I think these apologetics talking heads are so distant from imagining a world without Christianity, they are missing the entire point. People aren’t voluntarily giving up their faith because they saw a religious leader fail. It’s seeing those figures in moral failure that breaks the illusion long enough for people to critically examine their beliefs in a new way.
yep, I think this whole corona thing has gone a long way to breaking the spell as well.
Perhaps they're like what many of us believed when we were still in their churches, that is a world without Christianity would be bleak and life would be meaningless (but for the latter that's what philosophies like Existentialism are for). I suspect that's what makes many afraid to entertain their doubts and push them to the back of their minds, finding out their worldview is all based on a lie would probably be soul crushing to them.
@Kevin Jackson I see this phenomenon as the "ghost dance" of christianity. Although the term applied to Native American tribes in the mid-late 19th century when they saw their entire culture collapsing, I think in a more limited way that's what's going on here. xians see their power and numbers diminishing and its driving them crazy! Literally crazy in some cases.
@@deirdre108 hence all the concerns about how the only people left in the churches will be extremists since the more moderate people have mostly left.
There was a meme in my church community that insisted that the only young people that were left in the church were those who were theologically ultra conservative, the more liberal and “lukewarm” ones had all left after graduating from Sunday school or so and I sincerely believed that alongside a couple of church friends (this was a couple of years ago back in college)
@@monus782 I know what you mean. I have a friend who goes to a liberal Episcopalian church--female minister, diverse, inclusive of all people, etc. and she says it's at best one quarter full on Sundays. She showed me a youtube video of what's happening with the Episcopalian churches in Africa, and it's opposite world--conservative, homophobic, misogynistic, etc.
But the churches are full! You'd never think they were the same denomination.
This channel keeps me sane tbh. Living in the South... its hard to tell that there are people in the world, let alone the US, that arent default religious. Its brutal.
I would say "preach" but that would be ironic.
@@xvelvet3247 lmao, true that
Even here in California too many are in cults.
But not all!
Also in the south. People don't take me seriously most of the time when I tell them I'm not religious. Or they keep asking " why, why, but, why, " family is ok with it after some time and personal life events but if I work a new job and the topic is brought up its always ( what church do you go to? You don't? Ok well... )
@@TheBookerDeWitt have you ever lived in another state?:o
Recovering Catholic here. This video says what I've been thinking for decades.
It's mostly scoundrels and scofflaws hiding in those pews.
The internalized abuse is bubbling just under the surface of so many of these speakers, really breaks my heart.
Best of luck to you!
I'm a recovering Catholic too. 8 years in remission.
Ex-Catholic here, not too long ago I sincerely believed what the apologetics said as shown in this video (looking at you Catholic Answers) and since I was a bigoted and zealous jackass back then I probably would've gaslighted anyone who would've told me they left due to the abuse crisis ("it's just a bunch of bad priests" alongside some homophobic explanations like the ones the Church has come up with), or at least pretended to feel sorry for them while believing they were likely going to hell for apostasy. That and my reasoning for not leaving was very similar to the gaslighting shown here (especially as shown around 4:30), and being a Trad maybe I would've just blamed liberal and modernist Catholics and the "misinterpretation" around Vatican II for all the stuff going on in the Church, as usual.
I left for other reasons eventually but I just can't believe how much I was simping for this institution back then (that's what happens when you buy into the "one true faith" shtick), but after all if you follow it to the letter Catholicism is a very authoritarian religion.
"People leave Church because they just want to sin"
"People leave Church because they're disgusted by leaders' sins"
Idk, wouldn't it be better to become a priest and then I could sin as much as I wanted without the looming threat of hell?
People join the church because they want to sin, be forgiven, and sin again, and again, and ag……..
They're all saying "Don't lose faith in the church because people are flawed."
Nobody is saying "Don't lose faith in people because the church is flawed."
"put your faith in God not in people" but ultimately everything you know about God comes from people. When you put your faith in Christianity, you are ultimately putting your faith in pastors, theologians, the people who wrote the bible, maybe your parents...even yourself if you think God is speaking to you...we can't just say everything is God until it turns out badly, and then suddenly well that's just people.
Well,
yeah... but kinda also no.
I get what you mean,
but lets not forget God in all this.
@@loturzelrestaurant I'm not sure what you're trying to say
@@ekulio Whatever... new Topic!
Ever used the reportbutton for good? Like it was originally intended to?
I currently try to gather strength-in-numbers for something rather specific.
Exactly tomorrow, i want many people to report the channel 'Normalizing Nudity'; the videos indivudally but also the Channel (those are 2 different Options).
I dare you to take a look at that channel. You will surely find problems with it also, even if you ignore the extremly OFF Gender-Ratio there...
It gets even more hilarious when you realize the Bible itself was written by men... so who tf are you supposed to trust then? The voice in your head you think is god talking to you? Uhh, if you're gonna do that, then I recommend looking into some therapy.
Faith is a fickle thing; I personally am a materialist but I was raised by christens. The thing you must understand is Faith either needs no explanation or you do not understand it. This loops back where faith doesn't need explanations or logical sense, it just needs itself. I have faith, in science, that all will be explained with time in what can be measured. DO I need explanation no, because I have faith in it being true? The bible in the same way requires faith in that it is true as if it isn't what is? Technically nothing separates Christianity from Zeus or that I am God. Only the faith that is in those institutions from experience and majorities.
Dude.. coming across your channel has been so life changing for me. Christianity had a horrible effect on my life ever since being put thru private Christian school ad a child. Thank you for these personal, deep dives. I hope you continue the wonderful and honest content, cheers
You may also like
Cynical Reviews.
You may like that Channel if you like the honest Truth.
That Guy would never bow to someone and/or lie for Profit.
Oh no you too, I grew up in a private Christian school and it sucks 😭✋
11:18 - "It's a sad story and it wasn't of much interest to me"
Wow. So he knew about sexual abuse going on and *didn't care*?
Very narcissistic response. Not interested in the "sad story" of someone who is a victim of abuse? Callous. I wonder how many church leaders meet criteria for narcissism.
A song dedicated to exactly this thought: ua-cam.com/video/EtHOmforqxk/v-deo.html
Besides his douchy response, sounds like he was lying.
This argument is so isolating. I left the church for three years and recently went back. My faith has always been in Jesus and it hurts when a Christian tries to slap me with this annoying platitude. I was heavily abused by more than one church leader and when I held them accountable they called me unstable. What most Christians at the time didn’t understand was that I left to protect my deep faith. After a while I stopped explaining myself to people who hadn’t earned the right to hear my story. The tactic of guilting people into staying is a cult tactic. Do not fall for it. Call it by its name and warn the rest.
Your path sounds a rocky one. I wish you luck along the way.
A lot of these arguments are the same arguments from people who are abusive...
God is pretty much presented as a neglectful and abusive parent as well as a narcissistic double binding and abusive boyfriend
Yeah, they usually are
Bingo! Religion has an interest in keeping you "in the fold" so you can be exploited for money, power, self-aggrandizement for the ones at the top, etc., and if they lose you they will lose the source of their addiction!
@@ZephyrusAsmodeus I prefer God leaving earth alone after Christ dies. Compared to him being in my life and letting all these atrocities happen.
Ah yes, the church, advocating for loving someone who is harming and abusing you lol
Also @10:03 my dad uses the "without God there's no moral standard so it means nothing" argument as well and it's really annoying lol
@@Idkwtmmythandle2024 Bring up the priests molesting children thing, or the other countless atrocities people have committed in the name of god.
I'm sure it won't work, but watching the mental gymnastics at work as they try to justify slavery and genocide is a sight to behold.
So the Catholic Church is what came to mind but as a Christian I literally thought you were talking about god. I was still like “ehh. Dead on”😂😂
The annoying thing is that there's room for a good lesson in there. We are all people, we are all worthy of respect. Love everyone just because they are God's creation.
Don't abuse other people, find the people who respect you. Hold people to account when they abuse people to prevent and repair the abuse.
But no, instead the church says that a pastor's abuse should be covered up, that repentance fixes everything, that structures shouldn't be put in place to protect others from the pastor, that the victim should be blamed equally because they've done sin too, of course not to that same scale.
It's disgusting.
Honestly I have no one in my life that I can share this with, and this is only a vaguely related comment to your video, but I have never felt such empathy and compassion towards others until after I started undoing what being indoctrinated did to me. Through atheism, I have become a better human, and you are one of the people I have to credit for helping me undo it all. So thanks
Might be atheists in your area- I’d recommend looking on FB groups
Just about every city (and a lot of towns) have atheist/agnostic Meetup groups. They might be an hour away by car, but well worth the drive to connect with them. You might be surprised to find out how many people are out there who are on the same page as you.
:-)
"Everyone makes mistakes"
Excuse me did you just compare me to murderers and sexual abusers?
This is why I've never understood why the preconditions for getting into heaven are both insanely low and insanely high at the same time.
Oof the Christians in this video are just... Emotional manipulation and light strawmanning is definitely "godly"
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I heard once that "even Hitler could have gone to heaven if he turned to Jesus for forgiveness at the last second" like WHAT THE FUCK THAT'S INSANE
except if youre mormon then they are ALL insanely high... and a tad pricey.
@@DuckInGameStop wait till they find out that Hitler was catholic
"You molested children? Raped people? ...Eh, it's fine, God will forgive you."
But also: "YOU'RE GAY? YOU WILL BURN IN HELL!"
"You're not my children, you're a bad game of Sims" - Bo Burnham, From The Perspective of God
Gotta delete this save file and start fresh! Here comes the Rapture!
Did you see hes coming back to comedy?!
@@raywilliams212 oh heck yeah! Ive missed that depressed ball of sunshine
@@raywilliams212 I'm so excited!!!
Whenever I see a female pastor in this video, I can't help but think of 1 Timothy 2:12. "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
even they don't know anymore
I'm against there being female pastors. Then again, I'm against there being male ones too.
@@ShadowPa1adin They had us in the first half, not gonna lie.
It's a very sexist bigoted religion.
When viewed from an objective standpoint, there's a lot A LOT of problematic statements in Paul's letters. It's really weird that they're put on the same pedestal as "love each other as you love yourself"
I’m so quick to click and like all your short religious topic videos before I fully watch them. And by the time I’m done watching, I wanna give them a million more thumbs up.
They’re just so great and hit at the heart of deeper issues I was raised to believe but are hard to convey for people not raised as a Fundamentalist Christian.
Please, *please* keep up the good work!!
Yes!! 100% agree
@@transrightsdinosaur Thanks so much for making these!! (Now I’m kicking myself for not becoming a Patron sooner 😂 😝)
Also, I have a really good saga about my mom and her “faith healing” that was related to my leaving the faith that I think really applies to this videos topic; if you’re featuring guests or stories on the show, I’d love to talk about it.
And I ran a support group for ex-Fundies from 2012 to 2018 and although I technically left Christianity, I’m still constantly fascinated by Fundie culture and am always willing to support people who are doubting their faith and may be confused or worried about leaving!
Couldn't agree more. I found them several months ago, I've been listening to every new episode as it comes out, and now I'm in the process of listening to all the podcast episodes from the first one onward. I'm up to the Heaven Tourism episode. (I remember reading Heaven Is for Real with my mom when I was young and being sooo excited about it.) I can't get enough! I also just became a Patron.
I ended up leaving because when I had a mental health crisis my mom and dad thought that my mental instability was a 'demon' that they tried to 'excercise'. It obviously didnt work and it was so bizzarre it made Christianity seem like a complete joke. Left the faith shortly after and a lot of my mental instability subsided when I did. It was such a weight off my shoulders to be free of that fear mongering nonsense. Just one religion of thousands.
"everybody makes mistakes" yes but there's a huge difference between when i would constantly say r@c1st sh1t (which i did grow past) and systemically excusing and allowing csa.
In 2019 or so my grandmother’s church was in the new in our small town because one the youth leaders was being investing by the police after 3 boy came forward and said he’d done terrible things to them. It was then found out that he’d left another church for similar problems years before! And worse part is the people who hired him knew!!! And the had a whole church meeting basically condemning the children who stood up for themselves! People at the church had the audacity to say “ they just wanted to ruin his life!” And feel sorry for a pedo! My grandmother stayed at the church until this year because they don’t believe in masks or corona and supported the Orange man! Plus some of them where at the capital on “that day”! If I’m supposed to believe God has a good plan why are there so many bad people in churches!
Ps this church was NOT catholic!
I think church is akin to governments without checks and balances. Give people power and authority to do whatevet
Churches are just glorified social clubs - nothing more or less.
I think people with a conscience tend to gravitate towards “liberal” churches. No wonder more fundamentalist churches will actually end up being composed of actual “bad” people who put religious dogma before humanity.
The Age of Trump convinced me that Christianity in America is nothing short of abject evil.
This is the argument I hear most often when I try to explain to Christians why I left the ministry and stopped believing. You captured my frustration well. Thank you for the work you are doing.
When I was in foster care we couldn't watch any of the despicable me movies because of the minions and now I'm reminded on why
7:28 "God is perfect and his word is perfect" God's word is so perfect it had to be translated, then edited, then translated again.
And it’s still loaded w/ contradictions regarding theology, moral standards and events in the Bible!
"Are you willing to leave the church over these petty reasons?" Ah, I see, so wanting children to be protected from SA is "petty". Fascinating.
The guy who says focus on the message not the messenger, is overlooking the very glaring issue with that phrase, if the messenger isn't perfect why would the message be perfect? Gold medal for mental gymnastics
"What moral standard exists for a hypocrite to defy?" Their own? That's literally what hypocrisy is.
I despise these arguments, I left the Church just a few months back and I've already heard them so many times. Christians, instead of harassing people who don't believe in your religion, just be nice, ok? Stop attaching strings to human rights and common courtesy.
I did too..
Yeah, whatever happened to "love all" and "treat others like you want them to treat you"?
Great comment, thank you Mitchell! When I stopped attending church I was told that I was going to hell and must not love God, etc. It was pretty awful. I attend church now but look for ways to educate people to simply love one another and serve and stop the nonsense and hate.
"Blurring the lines
Between virtue and sin
They can't tell
Where God ends
And mankind begins"
In The Name Of God
Dream Theater
I was thinking about that song. Good call.
I watched "The Apostle" and "O Brother Where Art Thou" within the span of a few weeks. Criminally underrated films.
I'm a dapper dan man.
I mean, O brother where art thou is pretty well known at least haha. Ive never seen Apostle! gotta check it out
@@JohanKylander Im a soggy bottom girl.
ewwwwww
but I had to say it haha
The Apostle is one of my favorite movies!
“Isaiah 53 tells us Jesus was hurt” even though Jesus wasn’t around at the time that book was written
And also there are actual New Testament quotes that demonstrate that point
He was Prophesizing about Jesus Christ
Wow I needed this video. Thank you for making this. I was groomed and assaulted by my coworker at the church I grew up in and worked for 4 years at. At the same time, I was running the Middle and High School youth group all by myself (I was the youth pastor’s right hand person, but he quit because of his own bad experiences with the church and the lead pastor.) I stayed for a full year after I was assaulted, because if I left the youth group would have fallen apart. I was broken, exhausted, hurt, and deeply traumatized but I was guilted, gaslit, and my only support system that I had was my boyfriend (now my husband) and two of my closest friends on staff that were also being mistreated. I gave the lead pastor a 6 month heads up that I was going to quit about halfway into my final year working there and in all that time they waited til my final weeks for hire a replacement and it was my sister lol I left feeling betrayed, under valued, and empty. Everyone’s only concern for me was that I keep going to church despite how hard it was for me to even be in the building. Needless to say, I no longer attend that church and am currently deconstructing my faith. Your videos have helped me so much as I make sense of everything.
I hope your sister will be ok working there if your assaulter is still there
@@emsmith. they let him resigned so thankfully he’s not there anymore, but the people who enabled and excused his behavior are still very much in power there so it doesn’t bode well for the future.
@@soph1377 while I wish he could never do that to anyone else anywhere, I'm glad he can't do it to your sister or anyone else in that congregation.
I've got trust issues, because people have lying issues.
10:39
Secular people DO treat others better than any churchgoers I've ever met.
Even moral Nihilists like myself tend to avoid abusing people because we know there are consequences for our behavior when people find out what happens - sure, there’s no “god” who will punish you with hellfire for raping a child but if the family finds out you may well find yourself on the business end of their weapons.
If absolutely nothing else keeps you from being a total piece of shit, fear of consequences does - especially if you have no supposedly “divinely mandated” position of authority to hide behind...
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz consequentalism isn't just about "I don't want to be punished" it's about knowing that the action itself has ramifications on many levels. I don't hurt others because I fear retribution, I don't hurt others because it would be fucked up and negatively effect the world in more ways than one.
@@Purpleturtlehurtler I get what you are saying - I am just trying to say that fear of potential consequences is enough to keep people from being complete assholes in most circumstances: most assholes tend to be in positions of wealth and power that allow them to escape the consequences of their actions - bring in real consequences for their behavior and they will generally stop being assholes.
@@FrankCastle-tq9bz true. There are some people in this world that only respond to retributive justice rather than axiomatic principle.
I very often feel like I'm looking in on a group I shouldn't when I watch these videos from people who deconverted. I was never a part of an organized religion. Not that I was raised being told there was no god, but that I was raised with no bias to believe anything. My mom trusted me to figure it out for myself, and it's honestly the best thing she could've done for me. But it makes me feel like an outsider looking in when I watch videos from former Christians talking about their experiences. I had no experience with science-denying creationists, churches covering up sexual abuse, or bizarre guilt trips when leaving a church.
So for me watching this, this kind of stuff just makes me angry. It disgusts me that there are people out there that do those kind of things in the name of an old book and I'm so far removed from it that I just can't see how they rationalize it in their heads. Part of me gets it - it's what's been hammered into people's heads since childhood, but you'd think at some point an alarm goes off. I guess I'm kind of lucky for not having to go through this stuff, but I feel like...I dunno...I'm walking in on a private group meeting or something.
Even if you haven't been through it, your empathy and decency are definitely welcome. Your mama raised you right.
Me too! We read the newspaper on Sunday mornings and my mom always made breakfast.
Yea, I have a similar experience, my grandparents wanted my parents to decide and my parents allowed me the same courtesy. I watched Sesame Street and kikaninchen with my brother on Sunday mornings. What happened to many ex-Christian folks is horrid.
Nobody is perfect is true, but churches are ultimately organizations who ask not just for faith in a God, but faith in the organization too. Something which is hard to maintain when said organization not only has "imperfect" people in seats of power but fiercely protects them too. Especially at the cost of their victims.
I found your channel amidst a serious crisis of faith. I couldn’t put my thoughts together though of why such a crisis was happening. Your evidence, personal experience, and pursuit of truth helped me find my way to a new understanding of what I want, how I want to give back, and best of all, who I really am. Thank you so much Trevor.
It all boils down to the idea that actions speak louder than words. All the honey words, apologies, and excuses will always remain empty until one takes up the responsibility to do something about it.
Essentially everything the church says is *"You're either with us, or against us."*
Godly *indeed.* 😒
I wanna thank you. Watching these vids, I catch myself remembering when I agreed with the people in these clips and now I can see how twisted my life was. You put into words what I couldn't.
Oh, how I remember this double bind. I was supposed to be so perfect and consistent, so that I don't present a bad witness to the unsaved. But if a leader or teacher in the church did wrong or did me wrong, I was supposed to ignore it
Just wanted to thank you for making these. I just recommended them to a friend because they've really helped me come to terms with the way the church warped my thinking. I really enjoy the podcast but these video essays are my favorite, I hope you keep making them.
Can you do a video on biblical contradictions, or as my dad loves to call them...”paradoxes”.
It’s one of the most frustrating things when dealing with Christians, because you can’t win with logic. When you point out that gods actions are often at odds with his supposed good nature, they will always retort that it’s not actually contradictory, it just looks that way 🙄
I've had conversations with friends about these and it always baffles me that it doesn't bother them, they just brush it off and see no problems. "They're not contradictions, we humans just don't have the capacity to understand!"
If a human did any of the crap God does in the Bible they would be locked up or killed but God is good because God is good because the Bible says so.Me*in Bender voice*:Hahahahahaha Oh wait you're serious? Let me laugh even harder. Ahahahahahahaha I then walk away😁
God works in "mysterious way"...which is a really, REALLY convenient catch all term to justify things that clearly don't make sense. We just couldn't POSSIBLY begin to understand why its totally isn't hypocritical or contradictory.
It’s like “what’s classy when you’re god, but sin when you’re not”
•Abortion
•Mass murder
•Sexism
•classism
•Racism
•Fascism
Did I miss any isms?
@@BandlerChing don't forget slavery!
Coming from someone whose mother was a youth pastor and my older sister (along with at least one other girl) were molested by a deacon in the Assembly of God church I went to as a kid...
You're not wrong. Your hurt is not invalid.
While I agree with the concept of "Just because people hurt you, you shouldn't leave the church", I know the reality is this:
If nothing in the situation changes, you have to change it. There is a MASSIVE difference in being "hurt" and being VIOLATED. Hurt can be (easily) forgiven, being violated cannot be.
What we ran into with my sister is the pastor wanted to sweep it under the rug. My father (another deacon) threatened to involve the police when confronting the pastor about it after we discovered the whole story and that the molester also grabbed the breast of my friend. What happened? The pastor drove my family out of the church "because they were trouble-makers". After that, every family with kids left because my parents were NOT silent on what happened.
However, the guy got away with it. No one called the police, a fact that enrages me to this day, 25 years later.
Thank you so much for making this video. I had that worldview and went on Facebook rants about it fairly often. That's been challenged in the past year, hearing all these stories of church abuse I realized what a cop-out "don't blame God for what the church did to you" was and how potentially hurtful and dismissive I was to my friends.
Your video summed it up in the words I needed. I repent from this attitude. Instead of trying to tell victims of abuse or even just disillusionment how wrong they are, Christians need to get the church to do better and stop saying "You just haven't found the right church", "People let you down, not God" etc.
This has big abusive relationship redflags
YOU should always forgive and never want accountability, otherwise you're a bad person
Of course the only people not effected by this rule are those who don't care and are often in positions of power or authority
But even then you can't take issue with it, otherwise you're a bad person
“I understand what it’s like to be disappointed at times,” is such a revealing statement. That you can just be “disappointed,” by rampant and systematically hidden abuse and not afraid or in pain because of it is a statement of privilege.
Imagine simping for something so hard, that you form an abusive relationship with it
It's called Stockholm Syndrome, Harry.
And you can't even prove the thing you're simping for exists
@@iceprism367
…I'm still confused about how you can form an abusive relationship with an imaginary/fictional character?
"The reason you're not a christian is because you don't want to submit to god", *want* and *submit* are the key words there-Why do you christians want to submit to god, and why do you want a god who wants submission to exist?
Yup. Why did God create humans just to worship God? Why don't the animals worship God? Why does God have such love self esteem.
I mean, I get the kink, but I don't force mine on others...
@@LearnAboutFlow "Why did God create humans just to worship God?"
Assuming that is the only reason.
@@misterauctor7353 ??? It shouldn't be a reason at all. Name one parent who tells people, "oh, we decided to have a kid so he could worship us". Stupid, and proves religion's flaws.
I CANNOT look at Joyce Meyer without seeing Jack Nicholson's Joker.
Thank you. I can't unsee this now.
@@mcpheefan21 LOL you're welcome.
When I was working in ministry the pastor would brood over me and made me feel useless and unworthy to work for him. It didn't kill my faith at the time, though later on critical and rational thinking did that. The worst part was that my family would side with the pastor over me when I complained to them about what was happening. That situation definitely made me more cautious in tolerating how I am treated at work.
I'm sorry you had to go through that, it's really frustrating when someone gaslights you all the time, especially when it comes from family (I would know)
I didn't quit because of imperfect pastors, I quit because I studied the Bible cover to cover 4 times from the ages of 12 to 24 and realized it was garbage.
That was one of the reasons I left. There's no pillars holding up the world. There's no dome over the world. There's no cornerstone. Genesis isn't literal because dinosaurs and people didn't coexist. Just realizing how obviously made up it is was enough to show me that that 'holy' book wasn't inspired from a God because it's all wrong. Not to mention obvious contradictions that causes frequent debate amongst Christians.
I just had a philosophical debate at 13 and realized Christianity really wasn't as special as I once thought it was.
Same here - read that book cover-to-cover and found too many inconsistencies and absurdities to believe anymore.
@@multi-milliondollarmike5127 there are no contradictions in the bible due to the fact each author has different subjective view points
@Senior Venus Digital
What a horseshit excuse. There are blatant claims in the Bible that contradict each other. And if it’s the infallible word of god then god wouldn’t have allowed there to be contradictions… sorry… differences in subjective opinion that would cause people to go astray. Or, let me guess, is that just another unnecessary test of God’s so he can thin the herd even more despite wanting his children in heaven with him? What nonsense.
"If I have to put my faith in God instead of people, wouldn't that mean that I don't need the church to be a christian? What would be the point of associating with people and forming religious communities if we are not going to take accountability and change when we break our principles or do questionable things?" I used to think about this when I was departing from my faith as a JW, and was dissapointed to be encouraged to stay in the religion no matter what, even if I had doubts, because believing in any other way was wrong, according to the JW.
You actually don't need the building "church" to be a Christian, when one is accepts Christ, the father and the holy spirit and follow their guidance you become a Christian.
There is no need to go or stay with such gatherings they are not required. And church theologically means the body of Christ so ones you accept Jesus as your saviour you become a church. To be a Christian is to simply be a good person, follow God, help others in need and be light in the place of darkness.
Questioning your faith does not mean leaving your faith. God is patient with us and he understands our trouble. Please take you time.
Accountability to God is very important and anyone that says something else is wrong.
Paul persecuted Christians and Jesus made him blind and then tells
Ananis that paul will suffer a great deal for his faith and he did suffer a lot then other apostles because God holds people accountable.
David lost his son and a child and later on was on the run from Absolam ( which was an absolute shame for a king) after committing adultery and murder. There are even more but I hope you get the point.
@@sharahlousia6460 Oh, I didn't mean the physical place at all, just, you know, as a JW you're encouraged to only associate with people inside the religion, and not really question anything if things seem off in any regard.
Anyways, thanks for your words, I did consider just changing denominations at some point, but after a lot of trouble and thinking, I'm living my life as an agnostic-atheist now, and have been pretty happy.
If a god does exist, well, I hope that in the end they can appreciate my honesty as a non-believer, and that I still tried doing good for others, even if it was for reasons other than salvation and piety.
@@bbernie I am not familiar with JW because I am not an American, but I heard it is a cult and what they are doing in Christ name is wrong it's good you came out of it. Good wishes to you.
Yeah, those church leaders are kinda arguing themselves out of a job, aren't they? 🤣
"Don't be misleaded by Church leaders, just follow Jesus."
Great. Just tell Jesus to stop hiding in Heavens, come back to Earth and give a public interview.
Unfortunately that's not really how things work.
@@Otome_chan311 well he was here once. If he did it before he can do it again.
@@julzbehr6696 again. Not how things work.
@@Otome_chan311 oh, why not, isn’t he omnipotent or something?
@@julzbehr6696 That's also not how omnipotence works...
Hard to have a relationship to somebody that never shows up.
"You're assuming that there's a standard...what is the standard of goodness that you're expecting people to live up to?"
😳 The actual...piss poor low standard...of not being a sex offender?? Is that too unrealistic a standard of goodness?
B but without christanity how do you know that's bad. - some dumb religion
That sermon meme is unintentionally accurate. If churches were honest and absolutely literal about what the Bible says, a lot more people would be struck earlier by how incoherent and outdated it is as a text.
oh it's not the problem with an omnipotent and omniscient celestial being... the problem are people, fellow humans. who would have guessed!
interesting that an omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving being would set up his church in such a way that makes it so easy for the people in power to get away with so much horrible abuse in the first place. 🤔 Best not to question it,, he does work in mysterious ways!
@@smiklosovic8971 I mean, pretty sure alot of those churches believe much of the Bible is to be taken literally so it's the same God that drowned everyone once, commanded several genocides and sent bears to eat the people who made fun of one of his prophets (2 Kings 2:23-25), and that's without mentioning the hell stuff.
If that's the case I wouldn't be surprised any of this is happening, it's indeed part of his plan and he's probably having a kick out of it
I began to realize I was not feeling satisfied and I was so frustrated with Christianity (Evangelical chuch)and I was also saddened when I realized it was more about the people rather than God himself. I began to ask myself how can a group call themselves united when Christianity has multiple branches and everyone keep throwing shame at others. I realized that it was more about pushing their agenda to you (Bi discriminated in an homophobic (literally a pastor put a 180 in his message to encourage kids to be pray straight (I was brave enough to stand my ground and not follow the crowd) and to go to conversion therapy) camp with toxic messages and people who clearly shouldn't have taking to young adults and children). I was hating myself and feeling so unsatisfied until I realized the problem was that I was listening to what the people say (contradicting each other too) instead of what God really had to say. I decided to lose my faith in the church and try to open my heart and mind to what God had to say... and I felt much happier and free. I no longer felt bad for not being Christian enough and I'm starting to see the world with new eyes, enjoying the little things and start to embrace the fact that I don't have to be like anyone else. Love your videos, they are so inspirational and I learn so much from them. Thank you💙
This video says what I have been trying to say for years.
"Focus on the message, and not the messenger"
I took that to heart. I still stopped believing, because the message cannot stand on its own.
i never got abused by anyone growing up, we had some pastors get removed from our church and i heard whisperings that they abused some kid, but never heard anything concrete or specific.
No, the reason *my* family left the church was because after my confirmation, the very first adult bible study class i went to began with the adults passing around a list of local businesses and saying "these are companies that we're going to ask the congregation to boycott because they said 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'" and my mom and i just looked at each other like o-o and left
Wait...
@9:15 when commenting..
Don’t these people realize that Jesus says that the kind of people who hurt people through their church position and abuse etc are the ones that he says would be better off thrown into the sea with a millstone around their neck?
As peaceful as I try to be... there’s a part of me who’s all for that ngl
I grew up in the GARBC (General Association of Regular Baptist Churches). I worked in the nursery and went through all their training regarding accountability and all that. Looking back, it was all focused on making sure that ppl working/volunteering for the church had alibis and some kind of adult witness to everything. Where it failed ofc was the fact that they always paired married couples in the nursery or in Sunday School classes whenever they could - and married couples tend to cover for each other a lot.
My brother and I didn't like the church and didn't want to go. Mom got kicked out of nursery duty and was banned from working in the nursery again by the associate pastor based on an accusation - the pastor didn't follow the established procedure and just banned her from the nursery. My brother and I didn't know that, but that's also why Mom and Dad had basically quit going to church as well. Then one Sunday night, Mom and I headed to church together (despite neither of us wanting to go, but hadn't told the other). We arrived and found that it was an unscheduled business meeting (those are usually the last Sunday evening service of the month).
The same associate pastor who failed to follow church discipline procedures had been accused by the parents of a girl in the youth group of having an "inappropriate relationship" with their teenage daughter. When confronted, he admitted it and he confessed to it and apologized to the church that night. He then resigned and sat down in the pew beside his pregnant wife and 2 year old son. At no point did he apologize to his wife or anything. The church considered the matter settled. At no point did anyone even consider calling the cops.
It was more than a bit of a shock to me because the church's own procedures and rules should have made it very difficult for him to develop an "inappropriate relationship" with a member of the youth group. That meant he had to have been intentionally and knowingly breaking those rules in order to do so. They claimed it was caught early so "nothing happened," but it really bothered me that it could even reach that point. But I think what bothers me the most is that in retrospect, the rules were all about avoiding accusation, not about avoiding situations entirely - and the way that the various rules were implemented, those situations are almost encouraged to happen (your spouse was supposed to be there, so if they weren't, they were encouraged to lie and cover for you to avoid getting in trouble for not being there). And everything I've seen in other churches leads me to believe that the same fundamental problems exist in most churches - they set things up so everyone has an alibi and then if/when it comes up? They handle it all in-house and try to keep it quiet.
I had an old buddy recently message me, said something like, "You're one of the nicest people I've ever met, and I just want to make sure you're right with god so I can meet you in heaven." That sentence blew my mind. I had to ask him how many people he thought there were who had already died and currently burned in hell and would still qualify as "nicest person you ever met." Because for every one of those, there's 10,000 strikes against your god. In America we do things a certain way, people are innocent until proven guilty. The christian god does things a little different, people are guilty until proven subservient. It doesn't actually matter if you ever sinned or not, it's just about the rituals.
Love the doublespeak of virtue and sin from these people. Also what was up with the epic background music in that one dude's monologue lol
Exmormon here and my jaw dropped when Richard g Scott was included. I know just like many Christian cults they victim blame but I hadn't seen this clip from their biannual conference. Smh. It's just sad.
Trying to get my own records removed. Yeah, Mormons are fucking awful. The core is rotten, and they refuse to take any accountability for their homiphobia, sexism, racism, ect. That's when I realized the Mormon church is a sham, along with all other organized religions and groups.
Your narration and story structure reminds me a lot of the way NPR stories are written and narrated. I love it. Keep it up.
The church's insistence that "all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord" is absolutely evil. Acting like telling a white lie once and sexual assault are on the same level of severity is reprehensible
Former Hebrew Israelite here and I'm enjoying the videos that you put out as well as the podcast. Keep up the great work.
Pastors: don't turn your back on the church! *Kicks person out of church*
Person: the hell? I'm out.
Pastor: See! The devil rules their life!
Sorry if this is too unrelated,
but this Video-Title just makes me think so hard
of Kent Hovind;
one of the most toxic Christians i’ve ever seen.
Ya know: The kind of walking Image-Damage?
A man so disgusting that i could vomit all over him;
which YES, are HARSH words, i know.
But what can i do but say harsh words?
Use the reportbutton as it was originally intended? ...Oh, wait, i could actually do that.
?!
Knowing the Christian God condones slavery, is enough for me; including the numerous other hypocrisies/contradictions/absurdities/atrocities acceptable by religion.
I’m good on organized religion, especially in America where it seems to lead to bigots empowering themselves, and justifying their racism, nationalism, and immorality.
A big cop-out I heard was the leader at my Newman center arguing that a student there harassing me for my disability wasn't a big deal because Priests have done a lot worse to children than what I experienced and that didn't make me leave the catholic church.
Priest who worked at the church I was a youth minister at was found to be a molester. He had left many years prior to me starting there, so I don't think I ever met him, but I will say that prior to it being uncovered, he was loved by the congregation. Sick.
Just wanted to thank you for making these videos. I left the church 12 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made but I am still unpacking all the damage done over the 18 years I was a part of it. Sometimes it really does feel like I left an abusive relationship, I was lied to, I was manipulated, I was made to feel like if I was in pain it was my own fault and yet part of me sometimes longs to go back because even though I know it wasn't healthy for me and I was the worst version of myself when I was in it.. there were good times too. Most of the people I know are either still a part of it or never were so it's hard to talk about. It's been so therapeutic to watch these videos and remember why I left and unpack the damage the church did to me, they can be hard to watch and I imagine they are hard to make but they really help.
Don't go back. A religion that says you're nothing without Jesus will easily wreak havoc on anyone's self esteem. Screw their religion and any other one designed to subjugate us.
If they're so concerned about keeping us, maybe they should do something about the people driving us away.
I'm a non-binary lesbian who grew up in the church. I had a lot of traumatizing things happen there, and it wasn't until I started watching your videos that I realized how negatively impactful my time there was. I thought it was something I had successfully moved on from, but I've started to notice so many of my issues stem from my abuse within the church. Having someone you respect betray your trust is awful in any circumstance, and it's especially harmful if they have a significant position of power over you. I was hurt by someone, and upon telling my leaders, I was out cast by my peers and told I was overreacting.
You have no idea how much distrust that can instill in someone, and its still something I heavily struggle with to this day. I often question the motives of everyone around me to an incredibly unhealthy level. I'm going to therapy now to correct this and figure things out. I'm learning to tell myself that my anger is justified, that I'm allowed to be angry at Christians - not just the ones that hurt me.
So uh, thank you. Thank you for these videos. I watch you religiously (lol), and your arguments help instill a lot of long-lost confidence in myself.
Damn, I just found this channel about a month ago, and I’m hooked. I even watched, yes “watched”, all of the podcast videos.
During a previous time in my life I would've chalked it up to divine intervention but I still have to say that it's a great coincidence that you've made a video on the topic that's been stuck in my head lately. So thanks :)
God, I wish you were a channel when I was a teenager. I would have been watching this channel every day. This is the logical look of religion I've been wanting. Good stuff man, new fan of the podcast and your content.
It's interesting the way you start the sentence. I once talked to a Christian who tried to say the fact that I used the word "god" offhandedly in a sentence while talking to him proves on some level I believe in Jesus Christ, I just needed to admit it to myself.
We have discovered a great insight, we often “victim blame” blaming a person who the victim not the perpetrator-we have it backwards
I continue to be blown away by how much effort goes into your videos. Not too Not the script & message…but finding SO many clips? I can’t even imagine how much time is committed to this. Thank you so very much. I am always moved by these videos and find them so entertaining too. Also, I have a history with I’ll Be Honest so I always love it when I see those clips thrown in. Just 2 years with that organization and I’m still working to undo the damage over a decade later. Thanks for all you do!!!
Holy shit, does this video reasonate with me. Back in 2018, I wanted to get serious about my faith and I started to go more regularly to the church to meet people around my age, because all of my friends were "of the world" and I didn't want to be too influenced to go to their side; I was 14 years old. I started going to these teenage meetings regularly.
I felt singled out everytime I went to these, because nobody truly minded me. They kept having side conversations, and no subject reasonated with me. But I thought that that was all that I carried ever since I lost my faith: I thought I just felt alone because I was introverted, and that I left the faith only out of asking too many questions with no answers or half-answers and fallacies.
A year or so after I started questioning, my mom bought herself a cross necklace and I thought it looked nice. My grandmother called her and she started a rant about how "real christians" don't use crosses, and that's a thing that Catholics, the "fake christians", use. She compared the cross to idolatry, and she still had the audacity to say that she was only saying that because she loves my mom. My mom was mad, and she broke the necklace chain; I, however, had an anxiety attack inside of my room. I didn't know why I had the anxiety attack until I looked deeper, and I realized that I didn't leave the faith _only_ because I didn't reasonate with it anymore, but out of religious trauma. I didn't only feel alone in church, I also felt observed: there were times in which I did or said something wrong, and the leaders overreacted. I know now that the things I've said about them were wrong and petty, but I was just a kid and I should've been talked to calmly so I could learn from my mistakes; instead, a woman told me that I was "too young to have an opinion", and that I had "disrespected the pastor, who was just trying to help", and once another woman mistook a praise I've given to her as passive-agression and when I denied I ever had been passive-agressive at her, she sent me a screenshot of the message. I didn't send the message to her, and she had it with her. I realized no conversation I had with these people was truly safe, and they would send what I was saying that was wrong in their eyes. I felt unsafe, and I tried to hide under God and Jesus, and then I started slipping away from them aswell. I was desperate and I tried to hang on longer, I didn't want to blame them for whatever happened when I was 14-16, but now I just don't buy any of that anymore. It was all of that that went through my head when I had the anxiety attack, it was remembering that my grandmother was doing the same thing I tried so desperately to stay away from. I still have the cross my mom bought as a souvenir, as weird as it is. Sometimes I want to use it just to spite my grandmother, since I actually am a "fake christian". Maybe I will, one day.
This channel really took me by storm
I think the most powerful phrase I heard way too late in life was "You don't get to tell people what they feel" in response to "That's not offensive". Offense is felt on the part of the person offended but is triggered by the actions of the offender. Whether or not the offender finds it offensive is immaterial to whether or not offense has occurred.
Todd yelled at Bojack about he can’t just say sorry and that he needs to be better and that is super relevant.
As an ex-Evangelist(I cannot consider myself a Protestant at all), this resonated with me the most. I genuinely hurt people back than at my youth, I cannot even do anything to change myself and yet when I ask for forgiveness or seeking this God they worship. Instead of giving me a helping hand, they always wanted me to seek Him not knowing my problems at all, although it doesn't help that Pinoy culture makes you ashamed to say that you did something wrong and you want to rectify it.
So long story short, I have internal problems that plague me since my childhood and they did nothing to help. So I ended up no longer connected to my own church when they spew the mystified things about Roman persecution was just the excuse I use to cut-off with the Church and the Christian god permanently for good.
Now I am just a plain old Pagan leaning towards Buddhism and Ruism. And Luckily my clan is fine with it, maybe not my Mother who is just tolerating me, but other than that I got the lucky bag.
"Its not about the church leader, it's about God"
Then why go to church? Why does it even exist?
I wondered about that even when I was still a kid and being confirmed as a church member. If it's about a personal relationship with God above everything else, why all this horse hockey about the lectures and songs and temples every week?
Church means the body of Christ so if a person accepts the holy spirit then that person is a church.
At first century people were taught about the gospel through the word of mouth so someone like an apostle for example goes and teaches them the basics of the Christian gospel and move to another place, because the believers back then didn't have resources as this generation. So these gatherings were a way to pray and discuss and learn about the gospel together there was not a church pastor like we have now and this custom revolved into the current Church setup, going to church is not a necessary to be a Christian. But good denominations do provide other kinds of support which are useful to different communities like food, resources etc.
The church is just another method of control.
@@Fafnd I swear