Thankyou gents. What an excellent historic-contextual contribution to this modern debate, especially regarding the historicity of cultural Christian ideas.
About a 100 years after Muhammad died my point is Mohammad never lived in Mecca as it never existed then and in the 9th century Mecca was chosen for the religion of islam.
I read a book about origin of Islam (The Mysterious Persian prophet ) and the author described the detail about Islam and original Mecca in Afghanistan
Mecca is a lie in the Islam story and Mohammed growing up there as 1. There is no archaeology in Mecca to the light eighth century CE. 2. There are no writings mentioning Mecca till 741CE.
@@cassidycarpede8689 watch his video. He is trying to Justify Jesus frim Quran and related materials and Islamoc events. It would appear that his books and scriptures arent doing the job from him. Can he proove to me from Bible that Jesus was God? Show me where Jesus himself says he was God. All the handiwork of a person called as Paul who wrote all this siiting in rome.
Holland speaks at a speed very comfortable for listening: without undue haste, so that the listener can follow what he says in the listener's own thoughts - one has time to decifer, so to speak, even reflect on connections with what one knows. The interviewer speaks twice as fast as he should. Very irritating, disturbing. Is he really professional? Sounds like a school-child, even 'abbreviates' words so that they are not actually recognisable. He should be given some elementary talking to. If he keeps turning up in the program, I won't be watching it.
It's interesting. Slavoj Zizek, leftist philosopher, also thinks that you can't have atheism without Christianity. Can't think of someone more different than Tom.
This guy thought absolutism is about the Catholic Church and after learning it's not ("oh really??") let this video online without editing it. That's youtube integrity right there.
historical research proves that the city of Mecca could not have existed as a large commercial caravan city in the years 600 AD Main reasons for this fact are: 1) Mecca is not an oasis, so there is no surface water (only a well, known as zamzam which is clearly unsufficient and inappropriate for watering many caravan camels) 2) Mecca is not shown on any map at that time or even previously 3) Mecca is located down of Hidjaz plateau and could therefore not be located on the caravan route which is located more than 1000 m above on the plateau (eg the city of Taeef is located at an altitude of ca 2000 m while Mecca is at 300 m) 4) there were no archeological remains or artefacts (coins, potteries, ruins, bones etc) discovered in Mecca dating from before circa year 700 5) no agriculture whatsoever is possible in this wild rocky desert location, how could a large city survive in such hostile environment ?
sorry, year 2013, when Tommy was a tremondous admirer of an gipsy without medical diploma, as their personal employee psychiatrist without medical degree Carmen Chirilă, and hore of arabian, with precise goals of chemical castration or otherwise of romanians, when Tommy was in Sebeș, near Sibiu, my place of birth, not them's. dr Corina IJAC 2023
That is common knowledge. At what rate and by what causes? If at a given moment, human activity is accelerating it, shouldn't you do what you can to stop it?
A recipe book is, according to the interviewer, absolutism. Follow these rules, or else. Of course if you do not faithfully follow the recipe, your product will be inferior. Mathematics is absolutism. Believe in every number, follow the teachings faithfully, filled with faith, or you will end up with a pile of scribbling meaning nothing. Thus Christianity is not "absolutism" but simply faithfully passing on to the next generation the teachings of the Apostles. Each member of each generation tests the religious teachings for themselves and decides if this is truth, like Math or the recipe book, or a pile of useless scribbling.
A Jewish man who hated Islam converted to Islam and Muslims who knew him asked him: What made you convert? He said:"I disorted the Bible and sold it, and no one realized it. I disorted the Torah and sold it, again no one realized it. When I tried to falsify the Qur'an, I immidiately got caught.
How about the idea that Mary is a member of the Trinity? Or that stars are spears? Or that the Qu'ran says that the gospel was given by Allah and so incorruptible? Or that there are thirty extant different versions of it (not just Hafs)? David Wood et al could give you many more problems with it, too.
Tom Holland lacks the instruments to do this analysis. I admire his works dealing with Europe of antiquity and Christianity in EUROPE - NOT THE MIDDLE EAST, as of the latter he knows very little, He knows even less about Islamic history!
Muslims cannot abide honest exegesis, because it exposes the flaky provenace of Islam; the so-called prophet was not in contact with God, but with his own disfunctional mind.
@@davidlowen7802 sure everyone muslim should appreciate a lie that demonizes islam & muslims based on stereotypes or very much radical interruption of islam excluding the grand context of islam which is hadith, biography of the prophet and the consensus of the scholars, which two blillion muslim actually do believe not that 0.001% of them who are bloodthirsty radicals who's prime target & victims are actually their fellow muslims but to a laymen like you it makes perfect sense
thank you Tom for saying that the advantage of studying history is that "it's interesting"!!! So refreshing to hear. I hate the platitudes that often accompany scholarship and try to justify (needlessly) investigations as "what it tells us about us today" , which I perceive as a childish or narcissistic posture
I would love to see the look on Richard Dawkins' face if Tom told him that his disgust of idolatry and superstition, is a Christian value. He defines himself by what he lacks.
CHRISTIANITY before CONSTANTINE'S " KON " MATRIARCHYAL CULTURAL COALITION WITH HUSBANDRY . . . BODY & SOUL SPIRIT AND MATTER BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE EUROES FREE THINKERS EMBRACED 1776 " TRUTHS SELF - EVIDENT " WITH NEGROES INDIGENEOUS PEOPLE HERE ALREADY WHEN SPANISH EXPLORERS CAME " NEGRO " THEY CALLED US for SKIN WE ARE INN " BLACK SKIN " LIKE THEIR BEANS HIGH PROTEIN ALL OVER THE LAND " FOUNDING FATHERS " OFFSPRINGS INDIANS NEW FACES " SKIN " COMPLEXION SEE ASAP " HOUSE DIVIDED " )( docu - drama )( MULATTO DAUGHTER GETS FATHER'S FORTUNE WILL of DADDY TOM HOLLAND good SCHOLAR not YET UNIVERSAL TUTOR " GREAT DEBATERS " 10 YEARS NEGROE TEAM WON OOOOOOH UNSUNG MY STUDIES MARGARET BANKS )(Maiden)( " UNLETTERED " N.I.S.A.I. by N.I.N.E. ;...3Sq M. "PATSY" FAUNTLEROY PEACEMA' NY !
@@jamesstevenson7725You're conflating superstition with faith. Typical. Absolute scientific materialism is certainly a sin because it negates Beauty and Goodness as essential falsifiers. Science cannot stand alone and can fall into error immediately. The world is not made of matter, it's made of what matters. As for angels and demons? As Science progresses out of materialism it may verify them more than explain them away.
If Dawkins by some magic were suddenly to find himself a Spanish soldier with Cortes as he entered the Aztec capital and learn that his earlier self would have much the same feelings of horror as his present self. This despite the previous experience pf this Spanish soldier in war and peace.
If Islam believes in Abraham, then they should exemplify the works of Abraham. He was a man of peace. He let his nephew take the better land. Maybe it’s a place where the three main religions can build upon. Without lies, Islam dies. It is not a religion coming from God-but is very Satanic in theology. God is love, not about revenge, violence, taking away freedom of choice, or violence or subjugation of women. God would never condone sexual mutilation, slavery, lies, etc etc. As a Christian from the west, we need to be bold about the very origins of this religion and expose it for what it is.
The fictional Abraham according to the ancient texts was far from peaceful. He was a delusional psychopath who believed he was chosen of god, just like all religious narcissists who convince themselves to believe in the superstitions of their ancestors.
Yeah sure, and thanks Christianity for the crusade, inquisition, conquista, slavery, World War I & II…We need to be bold about Christianity and expose it for what it is.
I've been on much the same journey as Tom. I had no idea, but reluctantly I've had to admit that there's truth to us living in Christian countries and well, so much is just defined by it, way more than you think of you haven't done a deep dive into the subject.
I'm not sure how "ugly" the history of Islam is, but I agree that the real history has been obscured and therefore untold. "Ugly", I guess is in the eye of the beholder, as I think that certain aspects of Islam's history may be beautiful. The simple fact is that "Islam" did not start in the middle of the desert, with a man named "Muhammed". Rather Arab Umayyed leaders from Syria and Nabatea conquered Jerusalem in the 600s, and the Abbasids from Persia/Mesopotamia conquered them in 750, and started to write "history" to justify their rule and practices. Over time what we know as "Islam" developed. That's the real history that few people are allowed to say.
@@hamadalkhalifa2323 : There are also preserved fragments which certainly pre-date Mo. Definitely a hotch-potch of loan words and existing legends. That Mecca didn’t exist and the Saudi’s prevent archaeology says it all.
@@donquixote3927 Man. You are full of bs. Stop spreading lies. Say the truth. I am not talking about stupid fragments. The Quran is preserved, and it is unlike anything. Hahaha. Mecca can be found in the Bible and Ancient greek maps. Do research before you attack Islam.
@@hamadalkhalifa2323 : I know it must be difficult for you to face but the Greeks, and Romans, for that matter, were meticulous about map-making, and I’m afraid Mecca wasn’t there, never mind Abraham.
@@donquixote3927 Many cities throughout history are not mentioned in maps. They didn't have the technology to pinpoint the exact location. You are wasting your time instead of searching for the truth within Islam and saving your soul.
To his point about the limitations of talking about the ancient world using English, I one read a comment by a historian of philos0phy that it is very hard for us really to know the mind of someone like Plato since his words have meanings lost by being transmitted to us by the Latin Christian writers of the Middle and early modern worlds. Idealists like Plato and Descartes, for instance lived in different cultural universes. Any Plato the Frenchman read was certainly more like Plotinus, whose thought was a living influence on St. Augustine, the great Latin Father.
Nah, he's in error saying that Christianity is evolving. The scriptures are the same as they have always been. People are just trying to change them to suit their lifestyles.
The scriptures are in error and have been edited and redacted many times, the scriptures are also contradictory as they were written over a thousand year period and this is the source of the incredible schismatic nature of the Christian religion.
Thank you for a great talk. I disagree with Prof Holland’s ideas on Islamic history which have relied heavily on a Eurocentric scholarship. However he is eloquent and compassionate, his broad understanding and balance make his voice one we all need to hear.
I agree. Did you see his long form doc on Islam? I couldn’t wrap my head around the lack of early written sources he claimed to not find and input from Arabic-speaking modern historians? The tone was they simply don’t exist? Idk
So funny, trueth behind islam when blood was mixed. On our beach lives a guy, son of a romanian women-her father is an adopted child...- with an arab but from the indians, so he is arab has indian gipsy blood. So, his son was baptised by my brother, physician like me. My brother worked, at a time in the russian cosmonautik city, had no spoken tears..., I love him very much. This baptised son uses legitimate A.I. I'm orthodox, how coul my brother be otherwelse, and, in conclusion, this baptised person is orthodox. What could i say. He is the dino chasing bycicles eating my garden, still one of us. And Tommy is invited too, i would say, only he was saved by real belief of western believers, to them i'm deeply greatfull. Corina Ijac, physician
because it was a central and key component in the lives of most people for most of human history - you can't get a real handle on a time period without understanding religion
much of tom hollands work is based on his own theory, without any factual evidence to back his claims. he is focusing too much on the ‘what if’ rather than what happened historically.
Watched Toms talk on Islam. How this guy can be considered a serious historian is beyond a joke. So many times he was stating ‘the Quran says this’ yet when you look it up it says nothing of the sort. The history he presents is not endorsed by any serious historian. A mish mash of loosely connected information to produce a narrative and some controversy raise his own profile and sell books. Woefully bad and should be stripped of the title ‘historian’.
You mught be right, he is more a journalist. Yet, the experts he had on his documentary were reliable. And they stated facts and not the kind of facts (🦜) uncle Sharif shared with you...😊
@@DC-wp6oj First you have to know what Islam claims. I have this notion you aren't aware of these claims. So read your scriptures carefully and research it. Before you ever doubt the scholar who lectures at Princeton, speaks 15 languages and has acces to the historical documents of Quran. (Your first and main comment)
so what if he teaches at princetown and speaks 15 languages? his knowledge on Islam is very limited, and is based primarily on conjecture and theory of his own. theory is not fact. he is filling his own made gaps with his own interpretation/beliefs.
@@techbetold He is filling the gaps because they are present in Islam. Like a muslim preacher 2 years ago told: "There are holes in the narrative" (Yasir Quadhi)
35:10 toms language describing mushrikeen here is super-biased and inflammatory in nature. How does he blame the religious beliefs on a fluid and volatile political environment with roots going back generations? How does he talk about slavery and rape when western countries are the number one destination of human sex traffickers in the world? Shows he doesn’t understand the Islamic world as much as he thinks and he will only be happy with the Middle East under colonial influence.
And who do you think are their customers? They feed their own lusts. Rape and slavery are actually enshrined in Qur'an. Divinely sanctioned. In other words seen as religious activities to degrade kufr. The roots of Islam are in a few books teaching warfare courtesy of ancient pagan Arabs.
The islamic political ideology killed allegedly 270 Mio people - and enforced slavery (well - if women are regarded as objects that you own - it is still a subjugating unethical system and teaching). Understanding hudna and taqiyya, abrogation the trilogy and dualism - then we can´t bet that islam will ever be reformable.
@@MAX-tw3qz show me the rape in the quran or the hadith and i will leave islam. did you know that slapping a slave is a major sin that is enough to obligate the owner to free the slave for repentance? secondly slavery is completely optional and freeing or forgiving them completely without anything in-return as what the prophet muhammed did to those who fought him are rewardable and encouraged. also slavery in islamic is completely different than in non-islamic context a muslim has to treat them as equals & he is always encouraged to free them, and enslaving process is only done on the enemy's soldiers and that is done on purpose obviously..
@@_A-qg5vf So does that apply if the slave is a Dimmi? Because at the heart of Islam is theft. Theft of the value created and added by Judeo-Christian values and economy. Islam has from the very outset been based on taking by force from those who have. Medina anyone? (Aka Hudaybeeya, as PLO leader Yasser Arafat refereed to it) When Islam made a deal with the city's inhabitants to last 10 years, then invaded after 8, breaking their truth. Dishonourable except amongst their own .
The title is based on the documentary that he created, which is one of the reasons why the subject was covered.
Thankyou gents.
What an excellent historic-contextual contribution to this modern debate, especially regarding the historicity of cultural Christian ideas.
Wow, I so respect Tom for thinking about Yazidis! I wish I could make a token contribution. What those women went through is beyond horrible.
Tom should write a book on Mecca as there are no records mentioning Mecca till 741 over 100 years after the death of there prophet Mohammed.
@michael hughes
The date I believe is 726-728. Around these years, there are dated texts that did mention Mecca.
@@paulthomas281 can you give us information on where these writing mentions Mecca 🤷♂️🤷♂️
About a 100 years after Muhammad died my point is Mohammad never lived in Mecca as it never existed then and in the 9th century Mecca was chosen for the religion of islam.
@@michaelhughes7458 Mecca is a fraµd city. S ee 𝛾t:
MECCA's a LIE! 6 main reasons WHY!
ua-cam.com/video/u0wzFgGAnKs/v-deo.htmlsi=kCcuc8waCXTyL_zM
I read a book about origin of Islam (The Mysterious Persian prophet ) and the author described the detail about Islam and original Mecca in Afghanistan
Mecca is a lie in the Islam story and Mohammed growing up there as
1. There is no archaeology in Mecca to the light eighth century CE.
2. There are no writings mentioning Mecca till 741CE.
Please collaborate with Odon Lafontaine, Mel from Islamic origins.
or read material from the Inara group in Saarbruken.
Mel doesn't know anything about his religion. What to talk of others religion
@@StatisticalCatproof ?
@@cassidycarpede8689 watch his video. He is trying to Justify Jesus frim Quran and related materials and Islamoc events. It would appear that his books and scriptures arent doing the job from him. Can he proove to me from Bible that Jesus was God? Show me where Jesus himself says he was God. All the handiwork of a person called as Paul who wrote all this siiting in rome.
Holland speaks at a speed very comfortable for listening: without undue haste, so that the listener can follow what he says in the listener's own thoughts - one has time to decifer, so to speak, even reflect on connections with what one knows. The interviewer speaks twice as fast as he should. Very irritating, disturbing. Is he really professional? Sounds like a school-child, even 'abbreviates' words so that they are not actually recognisable. He should be given some elementary talking to. If he keeps turning up in the program, I won't be watching it.
Tom is a good communicator and broadcaster - probably due to his many tv appearances and his amazing podcast
Cathars followed The book of James the founder of the Jerusalem church.
It's interesting. Slavoj Zizek, leftist philosopher, also thinks that you can't have atheism without Christianity. Can't think of someone more different than Tom.
This guy thought absolutism is about the Catholic Church and after learning it's not ("oh really??") let this video online without editing it. That's youtube integrity right there.
historical research proves that the city of Mecca could not have existed as a large commercial caravan city in the years 600 AD
Main reasons for this fact are:
1) Mecca is not an oasis, so there is no surface water (only a well, known as zamzam which is clearly unsufficient and inappropriate for watering many caravan camels)
2) Mecca is not shown on any map at that time or even previously
3) Mecca is located down of Hidjaz plateau and could therefore not be located on the caravan route which is located more than 1000 m above on the plateau (eg the city of Taeef is located at an altitude of ca 2000 m while Mecca is at 300 m)
4) there were no archeological remains or artefacts (coins, potteries, ruins, bones etc) discovered in Mecca dating from before circa year 700
5) no agriculture whatsoever is possible in this wild rocky desert location, how could a large city survive in such hostile environment ?
Let him make one on Talmud and Torah. And some about the Crusades and the Crusaders.
Can you find any truth in the story that Churchill, on his way to Parliament, talked to people in the Underground who told him to fight Hitler.
It was on a bus
sorry, year 2013, when Tommy was a tremondous admirer of an gipsy without medical diploma, as their personal employee psychiatrist without medical degree Carmen Chirilă, and hore of arabian, with precise goals of chemical castration or otherwise of romanians, when Tommy was in Sebeș, near Sibiu, my place of birth, not them's.
dr Corina IJAC
2023
The word is puritanism, not puratism…
@RETRO MoGraph
I believe the host is German. Forgive the mistake. I make many in German.
He sounds South African to me!
@@retromograph3893 Oh interesting.
@@retromograph3893 Yes you're right. He is South African. It was mentioned he is from South Africa.
He sure do talk fast.
WE ARE ALL ONE.
I'm not
@@grantbartley483 😂 well science is beginning to confirm it.
A historian should know that the climate has always changed.
Thanks for that comment. It needed to be said.
He did not argue that the climate doesn't change over time. But you don't believe in man made climate change.
I don't think it started changing until Muhammad, in my opinion it is Islam's fault
That is common knowledge. At what rate and by what causes? If at a given moment, human activity is accelerating it, shouldn't you do what you can to stop it?
A recipe book is, according to the interviewer, absolutism. Follow these rules, or else. Of course if you do not faithfully follow the recipe, your product will be inferior. Mathematics is absolutism. Believe in every number, follow the teachings faithfully, filled with faith, or you will end up with a pile of scribbling meaning nothing. Thus Christianity is not "absolutism" but simply faithfully passing on to the next generation the teachings of the Apostles. Each member of each generation tests the religious teachings for themselves and decides if this is truth, like Math or the recipe book, or a pile of useless scribbling.
Erase Islam
A Jewish man who hated Islam converted to Islam and Muslims who knew him asked him:
What made you convert? He said:"I disorted the Bible and sold it, and no one realized it.
I disorted the Torah and sold it, again no one realized it. When I tried to falsify the Qur'an, I immidiately got caught.
How about the idea that Mary is a member of the Trinity? Or that stars are spears? Or that the Qu'ran says that the gospel was given by Allah and so incorruptible? Or that there are thirty extant different versions of it (not just Hafs)? David Wood et al could give you many more problems with it, too.
Tom Holland lacks the instruments to do this analysis. I admire his works dealing with Europe of antiquity and Christianity in EUROPE - NOT THE MIDDLE EAST, as of the latter he knows very little, He knows even less about Islamic history!
Do your research with an unbiased view
U biased
What a waste
Muslims cannot abide honest exegesis, because it exposes the flaky provenace of Islam; the so-called prophet was not in contact with God, but with his own disfunctional mind.
@@davidlowen7802 sure everyone muslim should appreciate a lie that demonizes islam & muslims based on stereotypes or very much radical interruption of islam excluding the grand context of islam which is hadith, biography of the prophet and the consensus of the scholars, which two blillion muslim actually do believe not that 0.001% of them who are bloodthirsty radicals who's prime target & victims are actually their fellow muslims
but to a laymen like you it makes perfect sense
We need Arabic translation cc
Arabic translation for his lies. You are a fool.
Tom is one of the best serious scholars on Islam and the ancient world, his book "in the Sadow of the Sword" is superb.
He is an Orientalist and a hater of Islam. I recommend Hossain Nasrs works.
thank you Tom for saying that the advantage of studying history is that "it's interesting"!!! So refreshing to hear. I hate the platitudes that often accompany scholarship and try to justify (needlessly) investigations as "what it tells us about us today" , which I perceive as a childish or narcissistic posture
I would love to see the look on Richard Dawkins' face if Tom told him that his disgust of idolatry and superstition, is a Christian value. He defines himself by what he lacks.
love of superstition is a christian value. Disgust for idolatry is pure christian hipocracy
Dawkins is not an historian, Tom is though..
CHRISTIANITY before
CONSTANTINE'S " KON "
MATRIARCHYAL CULTURAL COALITION
WITH
HUSBANDRY . . .
BODY & SOUL
SPIRIT AND MATTER
BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE
EUROES
FREE THINKERS
EMBRACED 1776
" TRUTHS SELF - EVIDENT "
WITH NEGROES
INDIGENEOUS PEOPLE
HERE
ALREADY
WHEN
SPANISH EXPLORERS CAME
" NEGRO " THEY CALLED
US for SKIN WE ARE INN
" BLACK SKIN "
LIKE THEIR BEANS
HIGH PROTEIN
ALL OVER THE LAND
" FOUNDING FATHERS "
OFFSPRINGS
INDIANS
NEW FACES " SKIN "
COMPLEXION
SEE ASAP
" HOUSE DIVIDED "
)( docu - drama )(
MULATTO DAUGHTER
GETS FATHER'S FORTUNE
WILL of DADDY
TOM HOLLAND good
SCHOLAR
not
YET
UNIVERSAL TUTOR
" GREAT DEBATERS "
10 YEARS NEGROE
TEAM WON
OOOOOOH
UNSUNG
MY STUDIES
MARGARET BANKS )(Maiden)(
" UNLETTERED "
N.I.S.A.I. by N.I.N.E. ;...3Sq
M. "PATSY" FAUNTLEROY
PEACEMA' NY !
@@jamesstevenson7725You're conflating superstition with faith. Typical. Absolute scientific materialism is certainly a sin because it negates Beauty and Goodness as essential falsifiers. Science cannot stand alone and can fall into error immediately. The world is not made of matter, it's made of what matters. As for angels and demons? As Science progresses out of materialism it may verify them more than explain them away.
If Dawkins by some magic were suddenly to find himself a Spanish soldier with Cortes as he entered the Aztec capital and learn that his earlier self would have much the same feelings of horror as his present self. This despite the previous experience pf this Spanish soldier in war and peace.
If Islam believes in Abraham, then they should exemplify the works of Abraham. He was a man of peace. He let his nephew take the better land. Maybe it’s a place where the three main religions can build upon. Without lies, Islam dies. It is not a religion coming from God-but is very Satanic in theology. God is love, not about revenge, violence, taking away freedom of choice, or violence or subjugation of women. God would never condone sexual mutilation, slavery, lies, etc etc. As a Christian from the west, we need to be bold about the very origins of this religion and expose it for what it is.
Ah yes, Abraham who was just about to sacrifice his son
The fictional Abraham according to the ancient texts was far from peaceful. He was a delusional psychopath who believed he was chosen of god, just like all religious narcissists who convince themselves to believe in the superstitions of their ancestors.
Yeah sure, and thanks Christianity for the crusade, inquisition, conquista, slavery, World War I & II…We need to be bold about Christianity and expose it for what it is.
Ah yes, Abraham who made sure all the men's genitals were mutilated.
@@AnthonyL0401
Ah, yes; we see you are not in any way one of wisdom, for the fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom.
You want the VERY VERY Bottom Line on ISLAM? That’s an easy one: Orthodox author, ROBERT SPENCER.
Tom Holland - it is no true to say that Christianity is constantly evolving .
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I've been on much the same journey as Tom. I had no idea, but reluctantly I've had to admit that there's truth to us living in Christian countries and well, so much is just defined by it, way more than you think of you haven't done a deep dive into the subject.
Gonzalez Patricia Garcia Frank Clark Edward
I'm not sure how "ugly" the history of Islam is, but I agree that the real history has been obscured and therefore untold. "Ugly", I guess is in the eye of the beholder, as I think that certain aspects of Islam's history may be beautiful. The simple fact is that "Islam" did not start in the middle of the desert, with a man named "Muhammed". Rather Arab Umayyed leaders from Syria and Nabatea conquered Jerusalem in the 600s, and the Abbasids from Persia/Mesopotamia conquered them in 750, and started to write "history" to justify their rule and practices. Over time what we know as "Islam" developed. That's the real history that few people are allowed to say.
You are a liar. The Quran of the University of Birmingham was carbon dated to the period between 570 and 640 AD. What a hating Islamophobe.
@@hamadalkhalifa2323 : There are also preserved fragments which certainly pre-date Mo. Definitely a hotch-potch of loan words and existing legends. That Mecca didn’t exist and the Saudi’s prevent archaeology says it all.
@@donquixote3927 Man. You are full of bs. Stop spreading lies. Say the truth. I am not talking about stupid fragments. The Quran is preserved, and it is unlike anything. Hahaha. Mecca can be found in the Bible and Ancient greek maps. Do research before you attack Islam.
@@hamadalkhalifa2323 : I know it must be difficult for you to face but the Greeks, and Romans, for that matter, were meticulous about map-making, and I’m afraid Mecca wasn’t there, never mind Abraham.
@@donquixote3927 Many cities throughout history are not mentioned in maps. They didn't have the technology to pinpoint the exact location. You are wasting your time instead of searching for the truth within Islam and saving your soul.
To his point about the limitations of talking about the ancient world using English, I one read a comment by a historian of philos0phy that it is very hard for us really to know the mind of someone like Plato since his words have meanings lost by being transmitted to us by the Latin Christian writers of the Middle and early modern worlds. Idealists like Plato and Descartes, for instance lived in different cultural universes. Any Plato the Frenchman read was certainly more like Plotinus, whose thought was a living influence on St. Augustine, the great Latin Father.
Descartes idealist? I'd think dualist.
@@fukpoeslaw3613 Dualism of the sort that creates the mind-body controversy.
@@johnschuh8616 exactly
Nah, he's in error saying that Christianity is evolving. The scriptures are the same as they have always been. People are just trying to change them to suit their lifestyles.
It evolves as culture evolves. Abortion was not a thing until recently. The church then confronted the issue.
The scriptures are in error and have been edited and redacted many times, the scriptures are also contradictory as they were written over a thousand year period and this is the source of the incredible schismatic nature of the Christian religion.
Dragostea mea Amon, cât ești de frumos, te iubesc.
Corina Miriam Georgeta IJAC
3 oct 2023
Thank you for a great talk. I disagree with Prof Holland’s ideas on Islamic history which have relied heavily on a Eurocentric scholarship. However he is eloquent and compassionate, his broad understanding and balance make his voice one we all need to hear.
I agree. Did you see his long form doc on Islam? I couldn’t wrap my head around the lack of early written sources he claimed to not find and input from Arabic-speaking modern historians? The tone was they simply don’t exist? Idk
Thank you.
So funny, trueth behind islam when blood was mixed. On our beach lives a guy, son of a romanian women-her father is an adopted child...- with an arab but from the indians, so he is arab has indian gipsy blood. So, his son was baptised by my brother, physician like me. My brother worked, at a time in the russian cosmonautik city, had no spoken tears..., I love him very much. This baptised son uses legitimate A.I.
I'm orthodox, how coul my brother be otherwelse, and, in conclusion, this baptised person is orthodox. What could i say. He is the dino chasing bycicles eating my garden, still one of us. And Tommy is invited too, i would say, only he was saved by real belief of western believers, to them i'm deeply greatfull.
Corina Ijac, physician
I am sorry and surprised to see Tom apparently gulled by the climate change scam.
I am serious without bias.
You lost me at herodotus the father of lies and propaganda been your favourite guy
Who and why does anyone really care about the religion? Answer: No one!
because it was a central and key component in the lives of most people for most of human history - you can't get a real handle on a time period without understanding religion
well 7 billion peoples do, i don't know about you
much of tom hollands work is based on his own theory, without any factual evidence to back his claims. he is focusing too much on the ‘what if’ rather than what happened historically.
Watched Toms talk on Islam. How this guy can be considered a serious historian is beyond a joke. So many times he was stating ‘the Quran says this’ yet when you look it up it says nothing of the sort. The history he presents is not endorsed by any serious historian. A mish mash of loosely connected information to produce a narrative and some controversy raise his own profile and sell books. Woefully bad and should be stripped of the title ‘historian’.
You mught be right, he is more a journalist. Yet, the experts he had on his documentary were reliable. And they stated facts and not the kind of facts (🦜) uncle Sharif shared with you...😊
@@Doggoeditor you’ll have to state what ‘facts’ were told by the experts. I can’t respond to your comment otherwise
@@DC-wp6oj First you have to know what Islam claims. I have this notion you aren't aware of these claims.
So read your scriptures carefully and research it. Before you ever doubt the scholar who lectures at Princeton, speaks 15 languages and has acces to the historical documents of Quran.
(Your first and main comment)
so what if he teaches at princetown and speaks 15 languages? his knowledge on Islam is very limited, and is based primarily on conjecture and theory of his own. theory is not fact. he is filling his own made gaps with his own interpretation/beliefs.
@@techbetold He is filling the gaps because they are present in Islam. Like a muslim preacher 2 years ago told: "There are holes in the narrative" (Yasir Quadhi)
35:10 toms language describing mushrikeen here is super-biased and inflammatory in nature. How does he blame the religious beliefs on a fluid and volatile political environment with roots going back generations? How does he talk about slavery and rape when western countries are the number one destination of human sex traffickers in the world?
Shows he doesn’t understand the Islamic world as much as he thinks and he will only be happy with the Middle East under colonial influence.
And who do you think are their customers? They feed their own lusts.
Rape and slavery are actually enshrined in Qur'an. Divinely sanctioned.
In other words seen as religious activities to degrade kufr.
The roots of Islam are in a few books teaching warfare courtesy of ancient pagan Arabs.
The islamic political ideology killed allegedly 270 Mio people - and enforced slavery (well - if women are regarded as objects that you own - it is still a subjugating unethical system and teaching). Understanding hudna and taqiyya, abrogation the trilogy and dualism - then we can´t bet that islam will ever be reformable.
@@MAX-tw3qz show me the rape in the quran or the hadith and i will leave islam. did you know that slapping a slave is a major sin that is enough to obligate the owner to free the slave for repentance?
secondly slavery is completely optional and freeing or forgiving them completely without anything in-return as what the prophet muhammed did to those who fought him are rewardable and encouraged.
also slavery in islamic is completely different than in non-islamic context a muslim has to treat them as equals & he is always encouraged to free them, and enslaving process is only done on the enemy's soldiers and that is done on purpose obviously..
@@_A-qg5vf
You do know we are talking hundreds of millions of slaves who never got to experience anything like your imagination.
@@_A-qg5vf So does that apply if the slave is a Dimmi? Because at the heart of Islam is theft. Theft of the value created and added by Judeo-Christian values and economy.
Islam has from the very outset been based on taking by force from those who have. Medina anyone? (Aka Hudaybeeya, as PLO leader Yasser Arafat refereed to it) When Islam made a deal with the city's inhabitants to last 10 years, then invaded after 8, breaking their truth.
Dishonourable except amongst their own .
The problem isn't Islam, it's Abraham..