Chris Claremont Destroys Modern X-Men “Fans” Narratives
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 лют 2025
- For years modern X-Men "fans" claim the Marvel's mutants solely purpose is to serve as analogs for minorities. The greatest X-Men writer of all-times destroys those narratives. Chris Claremont recently explained why pigeonholing X-Men as minority analogues isn't the way Marvel's mutant work. Wes and Dok respond to Claremont's recent statements regarding the X-Men being pigeonholed as minority stand-ins. Chris Claremont destroys modern X-Men "fans" narratives.
Support Thinking Critical On Patreon For Exclusive Content!
/ thinkingcritical
🛒 SHOP THINKING CRITICAL - Official Merch!
www.redbubble....
Thank you for supporting the channel!
Thinking Critical TikTok Channel: / thinking_critical
Thinking Critical Instagram: / thinkingcrit
Thinking Critical FaceBook Community: / 1368359010382132
Thinking Critical Discord: / discord
Twitch Channel
/ thinking_critical_yt
Contact Thinking Critical:
Twitter: / wes_from_tc
Email wesdigscomics@gmail.com
#marvel #xmen #comicbooks
Claremont has said many times that he never wrote the X-men for any particular demographic as he considers that to be exclusional. He always said the injustices that the X-men face are universal and should resonate with everyone, yet still feel like it was written exclusively for you.
Exactly. Also, I think the X-Men resonated more specifically with comic fans in the pre-2000's; before the advent of mainstream "geek culture" and popularization of comic characters with an endless stream of Hollywood movies and Netflix shows. But back in the day, if you read comics, you literally felt like you were, at least somewhat, on the periphery of culture - and most normies probably didn't 100% get you. Like you say, it's a very general metaphor for maybe feeling a bit obtuse, a little different, and left out. 30 and 40 years ago, that definitely resonated with comic readers. But probably not so much today where people who've never read a comic book are wearing Captain America tee-shirts, and everyone has seen Endgame.
BS, he's the one who made the X-Men into a Civil Rights Allegory.
@SamGuthrie1977 completely agree and glad you put "geek culture" in quotations. Fans who genuinely love something don't consider it "geeky" or "nerdy". Anyone who describes themselves in those terms usually doesn't actually care about the thing they're pretending to like. They're only interested in being part of a perceived fashionable subculture. Marvel have burned their legacy to the ground pandering exclusively to this phantom audience.
Well said man. I was so in the closet about reading comics to anyone exept my best friend& family.The popularity of comics becoming mainstream ruined it for me. It was a double edged sword. Comicbook characters were our "thing" . Now they're basically the NFL. @@SamGuthrie1977
Yes but problem is CLEARLY not everyone feels it's written for THEM& how arguments get started!
I met Chris two years ago and he signed my Dark Phoenix Saga book while also telling me that the Marvel today doesn't work like it did back in his day. What a legend.
The "oppressed by humans" line always cracks me up. It's an argument made by people who have never read X-Men history. Evil mutants have always been the biggest threat to other mutants.
M-Day was done by Scarlett Witch, a mutant. The Genosha genocide was done by Cassandra Nova, a Shi-ar Mummudrai. The Morlock Massacre was done by Mister Sinister, a mutate. The Dark Phoenix Saga was instigated by the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club, a group of rich mutants. The dystopia of Age of Apocalypse was the fault of Legion, a mutant. That doesn't even go into the anti-mutant hysteria generated by Magneto's multiple actions in the pre-2000's comics, that Xavier literally founded the school to prevent.
If I can just add onto what you very greatly put together,
Days of Future Past was a dystopian future triggered by Mystique, Destiny and their Brotherhood of Mutants : The first instance of a dystopian world showing most of Mutantkind dead only came to be because of two mutants and their stupid assassination plan on Senator Kelly.
The Hellfire Club also financed the Sentinel program, their money went into building mutant killing robots that would target anyone that wasn't them.
Yes, in some future timelines the own mutantkind was responsable for their own demise. Modern writers just prefer make all the humankind the main X-Men antagonists since M-Day. I hate this.
@ Yeah good point. It's almost always evil mutants who are the biggest threat to other mutants. It's been there since 1963, in X-Men #1, when Stan and Jack made it obvious that Xavier founded the school to stop Magneto and the Brotherhood from making things worse.
I've noticed that people who've never read X-Men comics love to cite God Loves Man Kills a lot, because it's one of the few stories where humans alone are the big threat.
Not to mention the spillover between mutants and superhumans
The superhuman registration act came as an extension of the mutant registration act. The avengers and other superheroes also deal with anti superpowered types multiple times. The final end result of days of future past is all superpowered individuals being registered and the sentinels hunting them all down until they hunt down all of humanity
@@SamGuthrie1977 "God Loves, Man Hates" is a good story... But it lays in a canon where all the evil mutant organizations and groups that have made the X-Men and, in general, Mutantkind's lives hard to begin with don't exist.
The only X-Men antagonist that shows up or is even mentioned in that one-shot is Magneto because the main argument held in that story entirely depends on the fact there are no evil mutants being evil for the sake of it and misusing their powers, which make up most of the X-Men's rogue gallery.
Claremont is X-Men, the man single handedly wrote the greatest era of comics ever,
Came here to write the same thing. Chris Claremont IS the X-Men.
Days of Future Past is my favorite X-Men Story. It’s a good example of how to do a time travel story properly. In addition, it wasn’t dragged out unnecessarily for 6+ issues. It was a 2 issue story.
@Captain-Thievius Yep, it was great. And it was great because it was original in concept and an original concept for how to use X-Men powers. Too few writers can create originality. Most just reuse tropes that were once new exciting concepts long ago. X-Men needs one writer doing all the books to create a multiyear saga. That's the formula that works best.
For years I've wondered could we ever get a run in not just X-Men comics, but any comics ever again of that calibre, it's looking unlikely
@fitnessabcvideo a major change in philosphy would need to happen at the top. And considering how low the industry is, changes are needed. I wouldn't be surprised if we see those opportunities again. Maybe not at Marvel or DC, at least not at first. Valiant would be smart to try it, if they survive.
Chris Claremont: I saved and ultimately defined the X-Men.
Modern Marvel: Ok guys, Chris is gone, let’s ruin everything he built.
They ruined everything that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby build in the 60's too.
@@Dion1605xFacts
He's the one who created the whole Civil Rights Allegory. That he's a good writer and the modern Hollywood crew are morons, notwithstanding.
@Dion1605x The Detective comics run from Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle disagree with you strongly
I’m still pissed how iceman was turned gay for no reason while LGBT characters already exist that aren’t being used.
EXACTLY! Agendas DAMN DISNEY!😠💯📠
What about Northstar, Disney?
I normally hate the "agendas bad" argument, because it's often so clearly used to shout about how much that person hates gay/trans people while poorly pretending they're not a raging bigot and "jUsT CaRe aBouT ThE sTorY", but I have to admit it does kinda suck when pre-existing gay characters stay iced while popular straight ones are changed.
@@swishfish8858 That's all we're saying fellow Mutant it's THAT simple also CREATE NEW original Characters that're Alphabet people. Why won't they do that anymore? You don't 👀 or hear ANYONE over the DECADES complaining about Raven, Destiny, Northstar, Wanda Sons, etc.
@@shadowoctopus990exactly
Several years ago I got a chance to meet Chris Claremont at a convention, while talking to him I voiced my frustration over the direction the X-men has gone. Claremont left me with the greatest advice a frustrated fan could get: He looked at me and said "If I didn't write it then maybe it didn't happen." Boom! I left the convention with a smile on my face.
Great !!😊😊 👏👏
I met him two years ago and he signed my Dark Phoenix book!
Yep. I agree with Claremont's implied message there. I consider everything from the last 20-25 years to be nothing but fan fiction by deranged fans and not canon.
@sebastianstark8517 That is a disservice to some of the good writers that came after Chris and this may shock you, but there have been good stuff after Chris. Not his fault that there has been more crap than good.
@@tayojones9460 EXACTLY!🎤💯📠
Hmm, I guess Mark Millar was right after all, when he suggested that the old guard of comic books should return to save the industry.
He's also delusional, because the industry spent the last 20 years chasing the old guard OUT. They're not going to hire them back, if they even want to.
@@ajitbengali it’s agreed that the new guys stink, but the old guard is not going to be around forever. Comics aren’t evolving with new talent.
The real issue is that there are no individuals anymore. Period. Without that, culture dies.
Chris Clarmont helped bring the X-Men to success, something these modern X-Men writers will never understand because it's just a therapy section for these weirdos.
I didn’t know I was on the autism spectrum until age 18 7 years ago, I always felt different from everyone else and questioned why I wasn’t “normal” like everyone else.
The X-Men’s original message of “you’re not alone” means so much, and resonates with me even more. And really, isn’t that what a hero is supposed to represent?
I'm convinced that reading X-men as a kid is why I turned out to be such a nice person. I was bullied in school, treated like an outcast but I saw what the X-men did and followed their example. No matter how badly they got treated they always did the right thing just because it was the right thing to do. Such a great message for someone impressionable. I couldn't even imagine what the current X-men teach kids these days...
I can't tell you how many discussions I've had with people online trying to tell me that this is good character development for the X-Men.
This is NOT the X-Men.
Been saying for a while now we gotta stop letting the fans cook. Ironically, Claremont is the guy many of them cite and the guy who inspired the "modern" audience. But the difference is Claremont understood how to tackle social issues and tell a good story simultaneously.
It’s almost like he’s actually a good writer😅
He's the one who made the X-Men into Civil Rights allegories, but at least he did it well.
Funny part: the greatest X-men saga wasn't about "discrimination", it was Dark Phoenix, about a member of the team becoming superpowerful and evil.
The best way I can explain how I feel about X-Men is to say the last thirty years has felt like it was one of those time travel stories where a character on the edge goes into the future and finds everyone has gone horribly wrong and they go back to try to be a better person. But in this case, it never ends. X-Men started feeling like it was going sideways in the mid-90's. Instead of Wolverine being the loose cannon that is trying to be better, it felt like everyone else started firing off as loose cannons. And after every arc, rather than getting better, it feels like it gets worse. I know a lot of this really started because idiots are Marvel wanted to do bad stories when the X-Men movies came out so " the films wouldn't benefit off of their books." Which is insane, since it's the other way around. The books could have gotten a push from the films. I thought after Disney bought Fox, they might turn it around. It was a Days of Futures Past wasteland right before the Krakoan era. Honestly, though, I still think the Krakoan era was a horrible mess. Maybe Hickman would have made it better in the end, but it didn't turn out that way.
I think the biggest problem with X-Men...And the world in real life...Is everyone forgot the basic premise of old school X-Men. The mutants wanted ACCEPTANCE, not segregation or domination. Feels like we're living in Days of Futures Past...
Claremont has said that he only reads comics written by Stan Lee, Frank Miller, and the Simonsons and I don't blame him.
He doesn't read any John Byrne?😅
Cute claremont and Byne had a spliting up due to the
Phoenix saga.
That’s pretty sad because there’s so much other good stuff out there
Most of these new modern writers can never understand Chris Claremont because they're opposites Chris Claremont took a book that was failing and made it a hit they take books that should be hits and make them worse failures
They just see what he created (He's the one who made them into the Civil Rights allegory) but don't understand how to write. Mainly because they're all failed Hollywood.
I knew it was going to crazy town when modern fans started referring to Xavier as a MLK or Malcom’s X of Marvel which insults the memory and works of MLK and then increasing the mutant population numbers ridiculously
lol this take is still hilarious to this day 😂Lmao
Cyclops in that last issue of X-men was disgusting. I thought they were supposed to get away from this awful characterization?
I think Jed MacKay is going to flip that somehow
Every hardcore Krakoa fan would consider Claremont a quisling even though they wouldn’t exist without him.
I heard somewhere mutants were created simply because it was a pain to create a backstory for every characters powers. Mutants are also pretty hard to oppress given you have mutants like Magneto that can crush entire cities if he wants or Storm who can freeze over the planet if she wants. These people are morons.
The X-Men appeals to minorities, sure, but it also appeals to anyone who feels like an outcast; the bullied nerd, the rich kid who feels his friends are superficial, the new kid in town, the autistic, the person who can't quite get his/her grades up, the dreamers and more.
And most people have felt that at some point or another.
Well said!💯📠
The entire premise is flawed seeing as how Mutants live in the same world as Spider-Man, Thor, Vision, and even Captain Marvel. It's brainlessly stupid to write stories where mutants are "OpPrEsSeD mInOrItIeS" if you think about it for a second. Logic has been purged from the Marvel universe and writers have been under the impression that readers don't know any better.
Quite a number of them don't! People to this day keep saying Magneto is a character who is morally gray and complicated when in actuality he's a mutant supremacist and the equivalent of a Not-see.
I totally agree
@imnotfromfrancewheeler2678 Magneto was complex under Chris but that doesn't mean he was right.
Tbf people do kinda hate and dislike spider man depending on the run at the time Jonah had an audience for a reason
@tayojones9460 Hardly anything complex about a bitter old man who cries about not-sees, yet has the audacity to want similar results with different demographics. Parading victimhood from the position of a member of the people who survived the holocaust AND a human-hating mutant is just snake-devouring-itself levels of mental deficiency & brazen irony.
I prefer the view that the X-Men are to be seen as outsiders regardless of what they are, not talking about any specific group but rather something that anyone could feel one day and that's what makes it seem like deeper. Nowadays people seem to be too focused on "me, me, me" instead of focusing on what can reach more people, things deeper than the skin that can really reach their humanity.
Very Good ...👍👍👍
Thanks for sharing Chris Claremont's thoughts on the current state of the X-Men in Marvel Comics. The situation seems similar to other franchises like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings where the creatives seem fond of subversion. The deconstruction of Luke Skywalker and turning Galadriel into a girl boss contradicts how George Lucas and JRR Tolkien envisioned their characters. This reflects the current Western obsession with deconstructing traditions and subverting stereotypes.
I miss Claremont on Xmen.
I almost miss Morrison on X-Men 😂
Agreed, I remember coming home from school and running to the mailbox to see if my twice a month brown folded sleeve showed up in the mail. If it did, I knew I was in for a wonderful night reading and experiencing the x-men and all the wonderful stories he created.
@@SolidGoldCEO haha, I hated Morrison’s run but it’s still more coherent than the mess we have now.
First half of M's run was good
THIS is why Stan Lee was the champion of Marvel for all the years he was alive. He wouldn't allow any of this woke shit while he owned the Kingdom of Marvel. Once he died, Marvel was overjoyed and took over, threw everything that Stan did under the bus, and started making Marvel woke
Exactly look dont get me wrong I don't have a problem with them bringing characters of different races or characters who are gay or tackling issues of prejudice but what they did with krakoa they can go fuck themselves
What do you mean? Marvel began race swapping heroes in the 2010s
@@night6724 Have you forgotten about Psylocke?
@@spinningtornado4543 what about pyslocke?
@@night6724 Psylocke, specifically Betsy Braddock, is the original case of comicbooks race swapping characters.
She has been Asian for more than 30 years.
It’s absolutely hilarious that there’s a bunch of people that are reading X-Men and don’t realise they’re the bad guys.
They were literally kidnapping children and killing innocent people on Krakoa but there's going to be someone saying "you can only turn the other cheek so long until..." That's villain talk to me. People really just want to live out their revenge fantasy and use the X-Men as a tool to do so.
When they started to play by the same rules that their enemies this was the end of the heroic X-Men.
@lobaoguara2332, modern writers are all Chris Chan's using the characters to live out revenge and sex fantasies. They're not even as entertaining as Chris Chan once was.
X-Men always reflected on how to deal with how to act when you feel like an outcast. Do you grow bitter and strike back and hate, or put your faith in something better, choose to act better and reach out and be heroic and act towards good and be noble even when no one is going to praise you for doing it. To offer forgiveness and help people even when some of those people might dislike you.
And that could apply to anyone in any situation in their lives. The X-Men used to encourage people everywhere of the two choices we face, to give in and choose the easy path of hatred and striking back, or choosing to turn the other cheek and act for justice and goodness helping to save even people that misunderstand or dislike us, to be heroic and better people even when we don't get praise for it.
That's what the X-Men were. Now they don't offer this high view and positive message to everyone.
Because look where it got them! Just like real life only so much people going to take before lashing out just like the Children in School getting bullied, all the Adults & Bullies Parents know but do NOTHING then when the victims fight back THEY'RE the MONSTERS & need professional help-GTFOHWTBS!
I wonder what Claremont think about every X-Men being a killer in these days. It's very clear that modern writers twisted the original message of the team about tolerance and the fighting for a better world that the books discussed before the 2000's. I fell that the X-Men went too far in their bad acts at this point. They are beyond of saving now.
He probably loathes it. In his early parts of his Xmen run Storm is chewing out Wolverine for hunting, until she finds out his form of hunting is to get close enough to just touch a deer. She then sees some beauty in his philosophy and apologizes. The character now written as a cold murderer most of the time was originally a man that could do the dirty work but knew it wasn't what he was.
Don't forget Nightcrawler and Wolverine debating this in the Wendigo issue. That's why us long time readers say the X-Men are out of character. The whole "Krakoa is what got me into X-Men" brigade just don't understand heroism.
@ Krakoa Era was made for the toxic X-Men fandom that find stupid the Xavier dream to fight to protect a world that fear and hate them.
@ Krakoa Era was made for the toxic fandom that always find stupid Xavier dream in to fight for a world that hate and fear them.
Heroes not killing has always been a huge part of Claremont’s philosophy as a writer.
The X-men by definition and repeated supporting mantra “saving a world that fears & hates them” are a minority. They are not directly any one specific minority.
They have falling to the DC problem… Batman successful so make every character like dark, gritty Batman.
Most characters have become very more like old school Magneto. They eliminated the opposing philosophy by wholeheartedly deciding Xavier was evil. You know, they guy with he drew they followed. They never really talk about the dream anymore. It’s become a nightmare highlighted very well by Krakoan age. This age established they thought the were gods with their ability to resurrect and their isolationist ideals. They were like gods on Mt Olympus. The disturbing part is that just about every X-men was totally on board with this…. No more co-existing except with the darkest, most murdering members of their race.
What is the purpose beyond survival in each and every book except the books about gods like Phoenix & Storm?
I’m a minority. I work in a very diverse work place. My Jewish coworker who is close to retirement said, “Playing the victim card never works. It isolates you because no one wants to hear your shit.” During the Claremont golden age, the COOLNESS of the X-men came from the fact that they never sounded like a bunch of whiny bitches. Of course they were angry at how unfair the world is. Of course they felt conflicted. Their own pettiness never got in the way of the bigger picture. Today, I have no clue what direction these books are going. Post Krakoa era has no direction because the mutants closed the line where there is no going back…and now, no one cares.
There’s a fundamental problem in the mutant metaphor. If you focus it too much on an allegory for a real group, it becomes very problematic or weird. Thus the mutant metaphor only really works when you make it as uncentered as possible, but that usually leads to less good storylines. There needs to be a medium which very few writers ever got.
I miss the good ol days when it was heroes vs villains but now its all about woke dei commentary in modern comics
X-Men started going down hill with Morrison's garbage run and Wolverine's origin being revealed.
Yes. After Morrison I feel that the team never were the same anymore.
Modern marvel writers is who the x men is commenting against in the first place
They will still ignore it unfortunately
This is proof of why Tolkien disliked allegory.
Read Stan Lee's X-Men #1 from 1963. Professor X tells jean Grey what the purpose of the X-Men is. Here is a direct quote from Professor X to Jean from X-Men #1. "Jean, there are many mutants walking the Earth, and more are born each year. Not all of them want to help mankind, and some hate the human race, and wish to destroy it. Some feel that mutants should be the real rulers of the Earth. It's our job to protect mankind from those evil mutants". Nothing to do with mutant minority rights and protection here. It's all about protection for "all of MANKIND" against the forces of evil, and Professor groups mutants in with all of mankind. Professor X doesn't separate mutants from all of the rest of mankind into some kind of special minority group.
Exactly. The whole purpose of Xavier's school and the X-Men was to stop evil mutants from making things worse for both humans and mutants alike.
It's bizarre they don't think anyone else knows what it's like to feel like an outsider, or uncomfortable in themselves. These people need to look up puberty and highschool. Hell why do they think comic nerds loved the series?
I always took the x-men as an allegory for puberty. A sudden change that happens to us all, but my alienate or ostracize some. That's why they were teens at first.
I thought this was the Spider-Man allegory.
it was a "Allegory" for everything, but insane woke folk wanted to make it ONLY their own
Modern X-Men spends way too much time on allegory and not enough time developing long involved storylines and deep character depth and growth. More interested in costume changes and sales optimization.
@@lobaoguara2332 could be both of them, Stan was well aware he was writing primarily for teens in the 60's
heres the thing everyone forgets .
go RIGHT back to the beginning, the Stan and jack period of the book where they lay down the foundations of the x- men.
the x - men were created to protect the world FROM mutants.
Professor X wanted to show the world that they werent all monsters and could live side by side with normal humans. that was the fear and hate they faced because the fact of mutantdom up to then WAS monsters who saw themselves as superiors ala magneto. bog standard humanity is right to fear mutants cause any day you could wake up to a mentally ill 14yr old who can rip atoms apart going on the rampage.
chucks vision was that THEY could take care of that and create a world where that terror need not happen. no need for sentinels or camps, the xmen was that solution.
SOMEHOW that became all about being queer.
I dunno. I recall, in the days of the original X-men, where Iceman was seen in his ice form and was rapidly accused by the townies of being responsible for things he was innocent of. Cyclops tries to help him, and they both end up on a platform, surrounded by a mob ... and with nooses around their necks. The major stories didn't seem like they were being persecuted just for being "outsiders". Even when Claremont himself wrote the Senator Kelly drama, it seemed as if he were harking back to the 1924 fallout of that year's act of congress that, ironically enough, discriminated against Italians who were viewed as minorities at that time. it was what? Almost forty years ago where Kitty Pryde's artist friend (who could create sculptures out of pure light) killed himself after receiving hate mail ... and Kitty gave that speech at his memorial where she likened the mutant experience to those of minorities and gays.
They turned Nightcrawler from a devout Catholic (an interesting character) into a Furry. They brainwashed Bobby Drake unto the Ligbit Cult. They turned the Xmen into legit terrorists.
The Xmen were my FAVORITE comic in the 80s and 90s. Jim Lees run is still my favorite Xmen artwork ever. The stories are just NOT INTERESTING any longer.
Sh1t, i was Wolverine for Halloween in 1992 when I was 10yo. 🤦🏻♂️
The writers connect more with the villains than they do with the heros. They should NOT be writing them.
Nightcrawler becoming a furry was the least of the terrible writing decisions Marvel had his character go through :
During Krakoa, he created his own mutant religion plus an inquisition for it and pretended to be Spider-Man during that era's version of "Fall of Mutants".
I totally agree with him. I was a huge fan until they decided to make an established character turn gay so they could pander
Even if the X-Men weren't originally created with the civil rights allegory in mind, it definitely had teeth and more meat on the bones compared to the alphabet community allegory in later years. Frankly, I see a stronger comparison to gun owners.
Comic fans don't obsess over political allegories. Activists do.
Agree! X-Men was always for all outsiders of every group, race, etc. One of the best individual issues that illustrates this is New Mutants #45. I feel it's one of Claremont's best stories. GLMK is also good at showing this "outsider" status. Most got it wrong here. It was never an attack against religion. It was about Stryker projecting his own twisted agenda of hate
into something that was supposed to be about love. Basically, man kills what God loves (all of us). I hope the irony isn't lost to what happened with the franchise.
They can't look at themselves as oppressed and still be heroic. Victim-mentality means you will either be a victim or worse - a villain.
X-Men in the modern day is absolutely FUCKED from every angle you look at it. I can barely believe what has happened to this once amazing comic book.
If I remember correctly, Stan Lee said he intended the X-Men to be some of the most awkward outsider teenagers ever. He never shot down other's perception of the team but he stuck to what he said about the team originally. I think Claremont and Cockrum nailed that vibe even better than Lee and Kirby did.
Claremont is smarter than agreeing to coming back as some group editor.... cos even he cannot fix the current mess.
Claremont was the one who turned the X-Men into a Civil Rights Allegory! It's ALL his fault! He's the one who created a bunch of human supremacist groups as analogs! His ONE saving grace is that he's a decent writer, and added other stories including conflicts between other mutants on how to deal with humanity, but he's patient zero for ALL of this. Of course no one else will read this post, definitely not Wes or Dok. Oh well.
The creative heirs to Marvel Comics stood on the shoulders of greatness and took a steaming dump. It's too late for Marvel because the house isn't about to let a few "has-beens" tell them what to do.
Nah, Claremont can't just be a consultant. He needs to take over as editor completely and kick Brevoort butt to the curb.
He’s too old and too rich for that.
In the 'Earth X' series it beast even points out to Cyclops having a private school was a mistake to begin with. And he was right. They should have invited people and show them how hard Mutants work to control their dangerous abilities. In the same conversation they even retconned Beast's reason for joining the Avengers. To show people openly that Mutants could be the good guys. It wasn't until 'Fall of the Mutants' the public got to really know the X-Men, when they sacrificed their lives to safe the world live on camera.
And in the 'Earth X' story Beast doesn't blame Professor Xavier for the mistake. He just says that it was a mistake.
This is going to trigger the right people.
The X men represents everyone who’s been marginalized
It also wasn’t always a prejudice allegory they of course took breaks in favor of super hero porn
Everyone has been marginalized at some point, hence these books are for everyone.
The X-men were never the same after he left.
How long will it take for folks to try to “cancel” Claremont? Not that Claremont isn’t god. He’s produced bad work before. But given him( alongside Cockrum, Bryne and everyone at Marvel) made the X men what they are today; this is a big deal. The X men were just well written. Claremont humanized them and managed for twenty years to make some great stories. So leave it to other writers to specially cling onto what he did and claim that’s what they are.
I saw it as a morality tale about doing the right thing in the face of adversity, fear making you what you hate and finding a way to fit in. Is become about being better then others while still claiming victimhood which is evil.
DC's Doom Patrol did it first, and went well beyond their initial 'outcast freaks' template long ago. The X-Men have stagnated for decades, just like Marvel comics overall.
The X-Men were outcasts because they were different (and even dangerous!).
That's all.
Feeling different is something everyone (regardless of race, gender, etc) can relate too.
In 40 years of comic book collecting, I've never once picked up a comic book "because I'm Black".
Claremont can say i didn’t mean that but at the same time he also did the whole mystique daddy thing so i don’t care or trust what he says.
Claremont's worst ideas were always tied to the fact they specifically made him horny and disregarded characters, story and setting.
Case and point, Nightcrawler's girlfriend being his adoptive sister, who was later retconned to also be adopted like him and to have been found as a baby around the same area and the same time as him.
The X-Men had obvious similarities to minorities. They were feared for what they were. That isn't all they are or were. Anyone who didn't fit in. Tesla didn't fit it, but he isn't seen as that in the modern Era. That's the beauty of the X-Men, allow great writers to tell nuanced variety of story telling. Humanize these characters.
I don't read comics written after like 2005, period.
I’ve been Arguing against this realism idea for days now trying to make them see that superheroes are different than war time heroes
The mutant rights angle Claremont started was a good thing and revolutionized the X-Men. It sells and it helped but they have to move past it. But moving past stale ideas that is running on fumes requires too much work on current creators.
Did we forget humans human? The fact that we have these characters getting tired and changing their tactics shows how anyone can have just one bad day to many. We forget nuance and crafting stories based on life experiences.
You want a time peice trapped in a bottle and never asking what if..
See... I think this a "political" move on Claremont's part. The reason people feel that the X-Men are "minority stand-ins" is because Claremont himself said it back in the 80's. And a lot of us old-heads are old enough to remember when he likened the X-Men to being metaphorically "Black" and Magneto like Malcolm X.
If I remembers correctly, it was Stan Lee that said that 25 or 30 years after he created the team.
The characters are supposed to be multi faceted (human) mutant beings and modern writers almost write all characters as just one dimensional stand ins for the writers or their friends. Characters used to have their own voice and the writers tried to stay true to that it’s frustrating
I never cared about what color the x men were just how cool their powers were and cool stories that were written.We need to get back to that.
If Marvel really wanted their flagship franchise to be great, it wouldnt be in the sorry state its in.
All people have faced adversity. Many more than others, but still.
BEEN SAYING THIS ABOUT STORM 😅😅😅😅
How can Jean and Storm lose!?!?!
And normies have no say, all they want is Queen Melanin Magic!😅
Storm isnt prim and proper! Shes survived Australia and ran the sewers and stood back to back with Logan😅😅
But she's supposed just this eternally nose-in-the-air goddess😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Could not agree more!
And I'm going to put my 2 cents in for my personal favorite X-Man Colossus! He was essentially their resident "Superman" in so many ways! Now the powers that be have decided that making the most morally unambiguous character's ethical behavior questionable time and time again and again great story telling? They've ruined the dynamic between him and Kitty (whom they've made utterly unlikeable). Colossus was originally intended to be the focal character in the series, but has instead been relegated to being incompetent barely useful. Such a sad state for the most underrated powerhouse in comics.
It was downright depressing what was done to him during Krakoa and only made worse by the fact he is now completely gone from any book set in main 616.
He is only present in AUs and so far he was made a villain in all of them and quickly got killed off.
I never had a problem with them seeing themselves as minorities or not. Stan Lee would sometimes narrate their stories with " You never know who's going to be a mutant!!" giving me the indication that they always saw themselves as outsiders or were to others anyway. My only problem is when they're doing stupid prom and who's sleeping with who garbage that became more prominent than the conflicts they were dealing with of evil mutants or whatever humanity threw at them!
Wait is this the same guy who went to Reggiecon and stated that diversity was sorely needed in comics? The same guy who literally said no all mutants are representative of minorities which means there are mutants who are representative of minorities? You guys ever hear claremont speak in person? You really should have before making this video
Like Hollywood these writers don't read the comics to familarize themselves with the characters plus Claremont often wrote in subtleties when came to the internal dynamics of the characters and how they interacted with humans good and bad and their goes back in the late 90's Claremont couldn't save the X-Men when they allowrd him back.....
Claremont would have to have VETO rights if here were consultant, otherwise it would do no good.
The X-men are now a hate group, like the Purifiers and their enemies. Woke writers turned from being heroes to being terrorists. I'm ok with Wolverine killing as its in his history. But seeing Nightcrawler, Colossus and Kitty kill people was disturbing. It wasnt shock value. It was a betrayal of ideals.
Yep. Kitty murdering people in a brutal fashion make sick and depressed in latest years. How she can a truly role model again for young mutants after become a mass murderer?
12:30 the only thing iceman can be now is gay
Captain America isn’t adored. Steve Rogers has been shit on for years, virtually nullifying him as a symbol and a character.
It's a waste of time and energy complaining about a dead thing.
Move on and create the next great, big thing.
Keep the fond memories, and discard the baggage.
Like some indie comic stuff?
How they stick to the mutant victim plotlines is an extension of their perpetual victim mentality. In the real world mutants would be rockstars, groupies would be chasing them to have mutant kids, mutants would be sought out to participate in nba, nfl, etc. Joe Rogan would sit with Rogue.
Except for the GOD LOVES, MAN KILLS graphic novel, during the height of Claremont's run in the late 70s/early to mid 80s, he rarely if ever dwelled on the X-Men as persecuted outsiders. It was mostly the X-Men going on adventures or battling other mutants. Even the Len Wein scripted introduction of the All New All Different X-Men, only Nightcrawler was the only one who was really persecuted. Storm was considered a goddess by her people, Thunderbird and Colossus openly used their powers and were respected by their families and people, Sunfire was a national hero and Wolverine was a government agent and clearly give didn't a f*ck
Claremont's Novel Sequel trilogy for WILLOW is a real Banger.
The allegory for discrimination became the only story told about the X-men thanks largely in part to the movies. Sure, it was always a component in the comics and animated series, but that’s what it was, a component. It’d be like reducing Batman down to simply his no kill rule. It’s a big part of the character but not the only thing being offered.
The movies plus M-day have effectively reduced the X-men to an us vs them mentality. Mutants vs humanity. And that story has run its course.
Yes forgiving complete monsters like Apocalypse or Mystique by their past actions and decide kill foot human soldiers in brutal and sadistic ways it's very odd and wrong for me.
@EvandroACruz When Rogue was recruited into the group they were hesitant for good reason and her ultimate redemption made sense. They closet I've seen to something close to resembling her arc from the comics was X men evolution
@ Rogue never was a killer. Mystique yes. And many these villains never full reformed in fact. Emma Frost back to villany in IvsX arc.
Yeah, years later I can look back and smile knowing that dropping Marvel was ok. Nothing beats Chris Claremont X-Men in the 80's. Not even the 90's cartoon.
I prefer watch X-Men 97 forever to touch in a single modern X-Men book again.
Haven’t bought an X-men comic in years, why can’t they just let Claremont cook?
The editor said he "wouldn't align to what was planned for the Post- Krakoa X-Men characters"...
I sure wonder why.
@@spinningtornado4543 Krakoa was Ghey! Post Krakoa Lame & Ghey!
I think this discussion can be simplified in a very simple way, although I love these kinds of discussions despite their grim tone. Today's x-men are mutant supremacist whereas yesteryears never sought to shed their humanity; their powers were a step in the direction towards mankind's evolution.
In my opinion there's no wonder why there's this disconnect between newer readers and older ones have presently.
I went to our local Half Price Books this weekend and found the first issues of the current volume of X-Men and Uncanny… now that may not seem like a big deal, but if these books act as not only entertainment, but collectibles as well, that says a lot…at least to me. Someone said “it’s not worth keeping because it’s simply not very good.”
He is right
This does not surprise me. I have seen (first hand) Claremont flip through others’ current-day X-Men work, and he did not seem impressed.
They fixed Xavier at least, sorta, in the recent Xavier's Secret one-shot.
But yeah, I want to see the X-Men be awesome again and these new creative teams aren't doing it.
The reason Claremont was sble to grow the X-Audience so much is purely because he told a wide variety of stories with the X-men. He engaged in allegory, sure, but he and the many artists he worked with spent more time focusing on larger than life adventures. Just think of the most memorable stories from Giant Sized to Dark Phoenix. Not to mention that the most popular X-men member is Wolverine. Not because he best portrays the plight of minorities but because he’s really cool.
1:24 This article completely ignores how Spiderman and the Hulk, two mutates, are pariahs in the Marvel Comics universe who are slandered, gets ostracized and attacked by both people and the government depending on the day of the week.
They aren't the only mutates that deal with the same kind of problems as mutants.
Spiderman and hulk aren't mutants
@@colingibson1998 That's... The point I'm trying to make here.
The article is trying to convince everyone that mutants are the only ones facing prejudice and hate in Marvel Comics when the Hulk and Spider-Man are there and have been subjected to that since their early character appearances.
Both of them aren't mutants.
Spider-man become more accepted by the NY citizens and the police in latest years after become a Avenger in the 2000's. He's not a pariah anymore. This make sense because Spider-man always was a misguaded nice guy trying his best to help everybody and doing the right thing. While X-Men become more edge and morally grey people as the time passed. Spider-man is in the end of day a true heroic person. The X-Men no anymore.
@spinningtornado4543 sorry I mislead it
@@colingibson1998 It's alright, don't you worry.
The X-Men were never an allegory for anything. Stan Lee and Claremont have both said as much many times. I can't hate these wokies enough.
Here's a nerd question. If Juggernaut is dropped from orbit does it even make an impact? Due to his power (cannot be stopped once in motion) shouldn't he just continue to go straight through the Earth at that velocity? If so, their wouldn't be an explosion because it would be like a knife through butter, so no impact. I'm guessing the answer is probably that his power only counts when he's running but I'd be curious if there's any precedent for it.
Chris was an amazing writer, I cant believe he was pushed out in favor of these victim-pron DEI incompetents.