Interesting info. I work for a major rail company in North America, and we don’t use any lubrication for our joints. In my experience so far, the joints will always slide together long before there is a heat buckle, and the bars and bolts are far more likely to break and the joint pull apart before the rail breaks (near a joint). That said, I can see the logic behind everything presented here.
I have a similar experience. If I recall correctly, the AREMA Manual does mention lubricating rail joints, but I'm unaware of it being regularly practiced in the US. In my experience, the joints seem move well enough without the lubrication. In a related vein, we typically use e-clips to fasten the rail to the tie plates, and e-clips restrict the movement of the rail anyway.
@@mtgibbs A set of different physics in America? They do lubricate here in Finland, for as long as there are some rail joints, and they will be there for a long time still in the yard areas. Why should they not?
@@Itapirkanmaa2 Obviously we have the same physics. I don't know the history, but along the line at some point long ago it fell out of practice and doesn't seem to cause notable adverse effects.
@@mtgibbs Your lines are falling apart and your trains derailing so often now that you would hardly notice anyway. Nice of you to say all the rest of the world is so wrong with their maintenance practices. mate.
@@Itapirkanmaa2 I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong; I'm just presenting my experience as someone who has worked in the industry for over 15 years. I don't know what other countries do outside of the US and Canada, aside from what you've told me is the practice in Finland and what is shown in the video.
Nice video, well explained. When I started at a heritage railway we used old engine oil to lube the joints. Its great when its all over a shim & coming home dirty was a way to prove I had been working.
Fascinating video! I own a small railroad company in the United States, and here and in the rest of North America we refer to the rail joints as joint bars, not fish plates. But the form and function is the same. It’s not common practice to lubricate rail joints in North America, and I’m unaware of it occurring anywhere I can think of. On my railroad we’ve been struggling to rebuild our track after the line has been out of service for the last five years, and we have a lot of broken rails, broken joint bars and broken bolts as a result of it sitting so long with no maintenance. I wonder if lubricating the joint bars might actually help this problem?
Interesting to hear fishplates called that! Thank you for sharing! I mean lubricating joints cannot hurt and will likely help with the breaking issue. Can i ask if jointed track in the US often buckles when the temperatures get very high?
@@thepwayengineerbuckling is very rare in jointed rail, though it can happen. On my RR we see evidence of movement in the joints such as shiny spots on the joint bars from sliding forces. In extreme cases bolts sheer off because there was so much movement.
@@Itapirkanmaa2 shiny means wear is occurring, so just needs to be monitored to ensure damage isn’t also occurring. Some amount of wear is expected but of course things do eventually need to be replaced.
Man, I love your videos. I work as STE4 examiner and although I'm pretty good with structures your videos have helped me understand rail and when I do track inspection in the vicinity of my bridges it always helps me to spot defects early and help us mitigate it like wet beds, possible RCF, S&C problem with sleepers, loose clips, packers, keys.
My rail experiances is heritage railways. We use fishplates partly due to the the sound effect for passengers and is less compicated to change. My question is how is expansion facilitated in welded joints.
It critical areas, around fixed points, there are expansion joints that can be installed. In most places, rail is cut to length before welding so that it is “stress free” (neither under tension or compression) at a certain temperature (90 degrees F at the railway I work at). From there, the ties, anchors, and ballast are relied upon to contain the forces that build up in CWR as temperatures change.
The track bed with the sleepers has been built strong enough to contain the forces. Also the tension/temperature combination has to be in the right zone when the joint is prepared. It's easiest to make any track bulk welding in the reasonable summertime weather up here in the north, otherwise you'll need to tension the rail suitably by external equipment.
I work at the railway, but not with the tracks, just trains. I'm to this day still loving trains, and the whole infrastructure that most people take for granted, or simply doesn't care about.
Can this be applied to fish plates that have had the black stuff previously applied on it, or would it require the black stuff to be removed before application?
Yes it can. The lubricant is used by a lot of Hearatage railways here in the UK due to its ability to migrate into the fishing joints without the need to open or clean the grease from the joint. It only requires one person with an Interflon back pack and 30 seconds a joint to lubricate.
Fin Lube was the original brand name for Interflon’s Lube EP. Liskeard was one of the first locations to convert to this new technology some 15 years ago.
What are those plastic plates with a red slider used for please? They’re fitted on platform walls next to the track. Every few yards and indicate something but what? Many thanks and regards, Paul (Uk)
The are used to measure and record the position of the rails relative to the platform. They are one of the ways Track Engineers ensure trains do not hit platforms as they pass through, while maintaining a nice easy step onto trains for passengers
Love your detailed videos! Any chance you could do a video on wayside flange lubricant and top of rail friction modifier??? (Need to learn more about them 😂)
Really appreciate this channel and look forward to every new video. Thank you! Your description of mechanically cleaning switch blades on points made me wonder about track circuit connections, which I'm assuming are a tad more complex than PECO's "Insulfrog" system!
I have a question - why are all the fishplate nuts and bolts I've ever seen in the UK square head instead of hex head... also seems to be the case on railways worldwide from the youtubes I've seen? also is there anything else unusual about these nuts and bolts?
As a follow up to my previous reply it seems that square heads are preferred because: - they work better with open ended spanners - they come in fewer standard sizes so you don;t need as many different sizes of spanners to deal with the range of sizes encountered - the shoulders on the heads are less vulnerable to rounding off when high torques are applied All that having been said, the stretch of line that I helped with today used square headed bolts with hex headed nuts, It last had its fishplates lubricated about five years ago and this really helped when it came to taking off the bolts and fishplates.
Hello, I am toying with the idea, however I'm not sure I have enough footage or pictures to make it as good as i would like. I'll keep it in mind and maybe some other views or subscribers might be able to help me out with some picture/videos!
Seems like yet another thing more complicated than expected. I'm not exactly sure why the fishing surfaces touch both the top part and the bottom part, instead of just holding the middle part from both sides.
Why don't they paint rails white to reduce solar gain? Whilst I understand the rail head would last about 5mins, the sides not in contact would surely only need occasional renewal and could perhaps be done at speed with an appropriately equipped engineering train.
It is done on some part of the track, such as switches and crossings. It does give a certain level of mitigation and reduces the rail temperature but only up to a point. It is not as effective as ensuring the joints move freely and correctly
@@thepwayengineerthe South East section of the Southern have painted strategic S and C etc white for quite some years now. How effective is it? For safety reasons when the temp. really increases there is a blanket speed restriction imposed. Thanks for the informative video. Take care.
![Would You Fall for It? [ST08]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n94-_yE4IeU/mqdefault.jpg)
Interesting info. I work for a major rail company in North America, and we don’t use any lubrication for our joints. In my experience so far, the joints will always slide together long before there is a heat buckle, and the bars and bolts are far more likely to break and the joint pull apart before the rail breaks (near a joint). That said, I can see the logic behind everything presented here.
I have a similar experience. If I recall correctly, the AREMA Manual does mention lubricating rail joints, but I'm unaware of it being regularly practiced in the US. In my experience, the joints seem move well enough without the lubrication. In a related vein, we typically use e-clips to fasten the rail to the tie plates, and e-clips restrict the movement of the rail anyway.
@@mtgibbs A set of different physics in America? They do lubricate here in Finland, for as long as there are some rail joints, and they will be there for a long time still in the yard areas. Why should they not?
@@Itapirkanmaa2 Obviously we have the same physics. I don't know the history, but along the line at some point long ago it fell out of practice and doesn't seem to cause notable adverse effects.
@@mtgibbs Your lines are falling apart and your trains derailing so often now that you would hardly notice anyway. Nice of you to say all the rest of the world is so wrong with their maintenance practices. mate.
@@Itapirkanmaa2 I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong; I'm just presenting my experience as someone who has worked in the industry for over 15 years. I don't know what other countries do outside of the US and Canada, aside from what you've told me is the practice in Finland and what is shown in the video.
Nice video, well explained. When I started at a heritage railway we used old engine oil to lube the joints. Its great when its all over a shim & coming home dirty was a way to prove I had been working.
Fascinating video! I own a small railroad company in the United States, and here and in the rest of North America we refer to the rail joints as joint bars, not fish plates. But the form and function is the same.
It’s not common practice to lubricate rail joints in North America, and I’m unaware of it occurring anywhere I can think of.
On my railroad we’ve been struggling to rebuild our track after the line has been out of service for the last five years, and we have a lot of broken rails, broken joint bars and broken bolts as a result of it sitting so long with no maintenance. I wonder if lubricating the joint bars might actually help this problem?
Interesting to hear fishplates called that! Thank you for sharing!
I mean lubricating joints cannot hurt and will likely help with the breaking issue.
Can i ask if jointed track in the US often buckles when the temperatures get very high?
@@thepwayengineerbuckling is very rare in jointed rail, though it can happen. On my RR we see evidence of movement in the joints such as shiny spots on the joint bars from sliding forces. In extreme cases bolts sheer off because there was so much movement.
@@mafarnz There should not be any shiny points. That means the metal has been damaged already. That's why you have the lubrication.
@@Itapirkanmaa2 shiny means wear is occurring, so just needs to be monitored to ensure damage isn’t also occurring. Some amount of wear is expected but of course things do eventually need to be replaced.
@@mafarnz Yes and the cure is the said lubrication. Lubricating is much cheaper than checking and changing hardware.
Man, I love your videos. I work as STE4 examiner and although I'm pretty good with structures your videos have helped me understand rail and when I do track inspection in the vicinity of my bridges it always helps me to spot defects early and help us mitigate it like wet beds, possible RCF, S&C problem with sleepers, loose clips, packers, keys.
That's really great to hear! Glad they are helping you out!
On the traditional track panels, they were always laid with 3/8in gap between each rail end to take into account any thermal expansion.
I've worked with a railway company. I used a 50/50 mix of sump oil and diesel. Works very well.
I saw this video just for the first time, what a superb way of explaining how this works, thx
Glad you liked it!
My rail experiances is heritage railways. We use fishplates partly due to the the sound effect for passengers and is less compicated to change. My question is how is expansion facilitated in welded joints.
It critical areas, around fixed points, there are expansion joints that can be installed. In most places, rail is cut to length before welding so that it is “stress free” (neither under tension or compression) at a certain temperature (90 degrees F at the railway I work at). From there, the ties, anchors, and ballast are relied upon to contain the forces that build up in CWR as temperatures change.
The track bed with the sleepers has been built strong enough to contain the forces. Also the tension/temperature combination has to be in the right zone when the joint is prepared. It's easiest to make any track bulk welding in the reasonable summertime weather up here in the north, otherwise you'll need to tension the rail suitably by external equipment.
Am still trying to get the grease off my hi viz. Greasing done in March. Great to transfer to other clothes in the washing machine also.
I always found once it is on there, there isn't anything that will get it fully off!
I work at the railway, but not with the tracks, just trains. I'm to this day still loving trains, and the whole infrastructure that most people take for granted, or simply doesn't care about.
Until it is broken and they cannot get to where they need to! Then they care
Can this be applied to fish plates that have had the black stuff previously applied on it, or would it require the black stuff to be removed before application?
Yes it can. The lubricant is used by a lot of Hearatage railways here in the UK due to its ability to migrate into the fishing joints without the need to open or clean the grease from the joint. It only requires one person with an Interflon back pack and 30 seconds a joint to lubricate.
@@robtaylor2852 thank you for your response this is great news
I was at Liskeard on Monday; a plate fixed to a sleeper at the head of the Looe branch says “ This is a Finlube product only site” - can you explain?
Fin Lube was the original brand name for Interflon’s Lube EP. Liskeard was one of the first locations to convert to this new technology some 15 years ago.
What are those plastic plates with a red slider used for please? They’re fitted on platform walls next to the track. Every few yards and indicate something but what? Many thanks and regards, Paul (Uk)
The are used to measure and record the position of the rails relative to the platform. They are one of the ways Track Engineers ensure trains do not hit platforms as they pass through, while maintaining a nice easy step onto trains for passengers
Love your detailed videos! Any chance you could do a video on wayside flange lubricant and top of rail friction modifier??? (Need to learn more about them 😂)
Make sure you are subscribed! There is a video on plain line lubrication coming in the next few weeks!
Really appreciate this channel and look forward to every new video. Thank you!
Your description of mechanically cleaning switch blades on points made me wonder about track circuit connections, which I'm assuming are a tad more complex than PECO's "Insulfrog" system!
Thank you very much!
I will be honest on the track circuit connections I am not too sure, maybe someone else in the comments might be able to help?
I have a question - why are all the fishplate nuts and bolts I've ever seen in the UK square head instead of hex head... also seems to be the case on railways worldwide from the youtubes I've seen? also is there anything else unusual about these nuts and bolts?
Good question. On the Talyllyn Railway, both square and hex head nuts are used - both types seem to be fit for purpose.
As a follow up to my previous reply it seems that square heads are preferred because:
- they work better with open ended spanners
- they come in fewer standard sizes so you don;t need as many different sizes of spanners to deal with the range of sizes encountered
- the shoulders on the heads are less vulnerable to rounding off when high torques are applied
All that having been said, the stretch of line that I helped with today used square headed bolts with hex headed nuts, It last had its fishplates lubricated about five years ago and this really helped when it came to taking off the bolts and fishplates.
What's the rail length change over thr 67 C temperature range?
Very interesting. How do welded rails cope with temperature dependent extension and shrinking?
They are installed in tension, known as stressing.
Check out my video on stress free temperature for more: ua-cam.com/video/8RPeg8RpH1I/v-deo.html
Hi mate,
I hope your well.
Can you do a video on track renewal?
Hello,
I am toying with the idea, however I'm not sure I have enough footage or pictures to make it as good as i would like.
I'll keep it in mind and maybe some other views or subscribers might be able to help me out with some picture/videos!
Seems like yet another thing more complicated than expected.
I'm not exactly sure why the fishing surfaces touch both the top part and the bottom part, instead of just holding the middle part from both sides.
Complaint.
Using a picture of track buckled by earthquake (4:58 RH pix)and implying it was from heat compression is disingenuous and misleading. 😐
I’ll hold my hands up there, I didn’t realise that was the cause behind that picture.
Dangers of trusting the internet to correctly label pictures
@@thepwayengineer No worries. I still gave you a like. 👍
Why don't they paint rails white to reduce solar gain? Whilst I understand the rail head would last about 5mins, the sides not in contact would surely only need occasional renewal and could perhaps be done at speed with an appropriately equipped engineering train.
It is done on some part of the track, such as switches and crossings. It does give a certain level of mitigation and reduces the rail temperature but only up to a point. It is not as effective as ensuring the joints move freely and correctly
@@thepwayengineerthe South East section of the Southern have painted strategic S and C etc white for quite some years now. How effective is it? For safety reasons when the temp. really increases there is a blanket speed restriction imposed. Thanks for the informative video. Take care.
I assume because it's an expansion joint for the rails.
You are correct!
A difference of 67 kelvins.
Whichever genius sponsorblocked this video has removed a large chunk of useful and interesting content.