MoFi-Gate News: Articles, class action & digital/analog source list!
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Mobile Fidelity digitally sourced high-priced releases are a matter of discussion due to its repercussions on the entire vinyl community and record industry. New articles, a class action lawsuit and finally the first digital/analog MoFi vinyl source list enrich the scene.
References:
My first video on the scandal "The audiophile's loss of innocence": • MoFi-Gate: The audioph...
Washington Post article: www.washington...
Jim Davis's initial statement: mofi.com/pages...
The Absolute sound interview: www.theabsolut...
The "In" Groove interview: • Mobile Fidelity - Inte...
My DMM video: • DMM: Direct Metal Mast...
Pure Neo database: www.pure-neo.i...
More Ana[dia]log groove here:
INSTAGRAM: / ana.dia.log
FACEBOOK: / anadialog1
TWITTER: / anadialog
#mofigate #mofi #vinylcommunity
Great video, they really need to drop their prices bigtime! $125 or $150 for a digital record is insane! I’d much rather get the $30 SACD.
Perhaps a vinyl is just more expensive material wise, production wise, storage and shipment wise.
It is logic that a vinyl album is more expensive than a CD.
but I understand your point.
@@Lasse3 in the 1980s, Vinyl was always significantly cheaper than CD. Average price for new vinyl back then was about $7.99 while a new CD could be minimum $12.00-15.00
@@DelmarToad wow i didn't know that! Being born in 1991 myself .
Can inflation account for this? 😅
@@Lasse3 vinyl pressing plants were everywhere & you could join the Columbia House or RCA record club and get 12 records for $0.01. CD was a fancy new invention that wanted to charge premium prices.
@@DelmarToad Oh, funny how everything has been turned on it's head now.
This is a slap in the face of "audiophiles" that think they can hear differences, news flash, they can't. This is why they got fooled for so long, I have a friends saying that their LP from MOFI is perfect, this and that, now they figure it out that the EXACT same LP they praised so much, came out to be from a digital source. This proves once and for all how easily "audiophiles" people can be fooled.
Its not a rant! Man, that is your passion and good on you for saying it! I have picked up some fine music with fabulous recordings (ie. Otis Taylor) from your channel over the years and thank you for those discoveries. It also shows that you don't always need to go MOFI (MFSL) to get good quality recording. Analogue Productions pump out some great stuff too and this whole ordeal has shown them to be one of the true champions of sound. Please keep the recommendations coming! Cheers!
In my opinion MoFi has done irreparable damage to the vinyl industry. Every vinyl collector will now question their hobby and why they would get the vinyl version at all. If they loved their MoFi albums knowing now they are digital then they are confused and angry. This will cause way way more damage than you think to the entire industry including the legitimate AAA labels. This also translates to the entire music industry including every record store. Here we go back to people buying low quality music files on Itunes because they think there is no difference now.
Great take. I like that you are focusing on the cost and production side of this. That has been my biggest gripe. I had issues with MOFI before this scandal because nothing is ever in stock. I used to ask - why dont they just press more - and then I would be told - well this is SPECIAL - its a ONE STEP, or a ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDING - but it turns out they can produce as much as they want - sure it takes longer - but AP seems to figure it out. Great video. Also, I just got some DMM Blue note - John Patton and Jimmy Smith - I was wondering what was up with these and if they are all analog or not - they are represses from the 80s so I assumed they were all analog. Again love the channel!
They couldn’t because they don’t own the rights to the music.
I must wonder how many music reviewers and vinyl enthusiasts said they really enjoyed the analogue sound of their MoFi vinyl only to find out now the source was DSD on some cases.
Don't get me wrong but this only shows a lot of vinyl enthusiasts are biased by default when it comes to this analogue vs digital war. Hope this gives them a bit of modesty next time they bash digital enthusiasts. Because unlike Guido who truly loves music no matter the source, a lot of vinyl enthusiasts are more worried about the medium than the music they listen. MoFi exposed a problem on various aspects including the community side of things.
Couldn’t have said it any better. The fact they they loved MOFI, and now they don’t, seems quite biased indeed and shows you how clownish some of these people are. I for one will continue to support MOFI because I love the sound. That’s why we buy what we buy. The love of the vinyl medium and the love for music sounding great. No matter what format.
Indeed. I agree that sometimes we are biased. The title of my first video on the affair was also referring to that!
I am flabbergasted by comments saying something like "what's the big deal, its how it sounds right?" If this were just about the music no one would care. It would all be a mute point. I, we, are angry because we wanted to support a record label that implied in their print, website, emails and on the jacket itself, that they were going the extra mile to cut a record from the original master tape. No other record label tried to mislead me over the last 10 years
@@whittierlibrarybookstore3708 No where on their website was that stated and on the jacket, people read the description and ‘Assumed’ what they thought was fully cut from analog tapes. Yes, misleading. Yes, consumers read it wrong.
I just have to add for clarity- the “source” of the vinyl record IS, in fact, from the analog master tape… however, the laquer was cut from a DSD copy of the master tape. Let’s keep the facts straight.
These title are still, in fact, original master tape sourced.
Well said - you’re one of the few UA-camrs to nail the problem: cost & the bogus limited edition runs.
No one is granting open ended licenses to audiophile labels on the sort of titles MoFi does.
@@scottwheeler2679 the CEO of MoFi unambiguously states (multiple times) that its decision to limit releases is based on DEMAND…NOT licensing.
Combine that with the fact that limited editions are the preserve of AAA releases because of wear and tear on the master tape, when there’s no such limitation with a digital step, then the whole concept of digital-OneStep-limited-editions is BOGUS.
@@GodfreyMann Licencing cost is based on the nature of the product. Limited editions and specialty products are easier and less expensive to licence. Whether or not Mofi are able to get licenes for exactly the size of the limited edition they want to issue doesn't change the fact that the cost of the licence and therefore the cost of production per unit is contingent on the licence agreement which will include the quanity of the limited edition and the nature of the actual product for example a One Step being a unique product.
OTOH when the major labels press their own non audiophile records there is no cost of licencing. They already own the title. So they can do so for less money and with no worries that their licencees are competing with their own in house product.
The *concept* of one steps is to reduce the inherent noise and better preserve the musical information in the grooves in th vinyl by reducing the number generations in the process. So for those who actually understand that the process is NOT bogus. It actually make total sense given the FACT that the digital file they use is audibly transparent. You will not get a mastering chain that can bring you closer to the original audio signal comming off of the master analog tape. Whether or not you or anyone else *likes* the results has nothing to do with the objectively greater potential accuracy to the original analog master tape. Nor does it have anything to do with th real world added costs of these processes being used by Mofi to achieve a better quality product.
Absolutely, you get it. Thanks
i am a 27 years collector, and i think that is a good thing - now the crazy prices will drop down and i hope it all will back to normal.
a new high fidelity record should not be priced over 35$-40$, like analog productions witch i like a lot.
A record should not sell for more than $10. I can get CDs of excellent quality for far less and enjoy better produced music. Vinyl has its limitations and that is physical, whereas CDs can hold much more information. Besides, the lovers of classical music love CDs. I would not invest in vinyl. I predict it will die quickly. According to the lady at a record store, sales of physical media is dropping. The fact is that we are not living in the days where LPs were the main way of getting music. Today I can copy anything on a tiny device, and the music costs me nothing. I can bypass all blocks presented in programs on my computer. So simple, so very simple to work around it.
The vinyl is derived from CD!!! How much are you willing to pay for it?? 🤣🤣🤣
Finally someone who hits the nail in the head and is not falling for the whole digital vs analog vendeta. The real issue and why many people are mad at MoFi is that people were willing to pay the premium thinking they were buying a AAA product when in reality MoFi was maliciously desiving their consumers!!!!
People liked the sound of the records and mofi said the digital transfer made the improvement. Your 45 CD is therefore anamazing piece of digital music and MoFi audiophiles agree. So the 'warm' analog myth is now dead and burried...ih BtW I own vinyl and CDs.
Thank you for this video. You hit the nail on the head (so to speak). That is the main issue, along with the fact that they intentionally deceived the consumer. To look at it another way, if you paid extra for something that claimed it was gluten free or maybe organic and it turned out that was not, you would not be happy about it. It does not make it okay just because someone says "Well, it still tastes good, so what's the problem?"
Great comment. I think this will turn out to be a major class action lawsuit that will force them to pay $ to consumers due to their intentional deception.
I can buy an DSD file and play it on my DAC for $25 CAD, so why buy a DSD file that is pressed to vinyl for $125? I have cancelled 3 One-Steps. I have bought a couple MOV pressings, knowing it was a digital source and for a lot less money than the Mofi! It might be quite as good, but the difference is not worth the extra $$$. Cheers
I agree, and they do to since that is what they are saying, DSD256 is very neutral. Better invest in a good DAC! Now it's true that the analog passage adds new euphoric harmonics but...not for that price!
The vinyl will sound different. If you wanted the most transparent copy of the analog tape you should have been buying digital to begin with
@@drewyoung2102 That is true. I have spent A LOT more on my vinyl playback gear than on my digital play back gear.
Agree, they are over priced for certain
I think Jim Davis still thinks we are all stupid. You hit the nail on the head, it’s the cost along with the advertisement. What almost totally invalidates Jim Davis’s argument is the 40,000 copies of Michael Jackson Thriller at 100.00 a pop. This record and volume is what got them in trouble in the first place and if the are a good Stewart of the finite resource, 40,000, really, stop it Jim Davis, just stop it.
Will I be part of any lawsuits, probably not, this was greed, 40,000 at 100.00 a pop is 4 million dollars. People started to question this in terms of Michael 45RPM and Mike Esposito and it blew up in their face. I wonder what this will do to future sales and collectors value, but I have to say that MoFi became its own enemy, some of us as audiophiles did this to ourselves by drawing hard lines in the sand with the Vinyl vs Digital debate and let’s be honest despite the price and the deception, some people are feeling pretty stupid to find out that they hated digital and have been listening to it all along.
I listen to all formats and my collection is based around mostly originals, with audiophile pressing in their as comparison. I like all aspects of vinyl from the artist to the writers, the sidemen, the producers, mastering engineers and the photography. I have cassettes, reel to reel, cd, blue Ray audio, streaming through tidal. There are CDs and streaming that sound better than vinyl and there is vinyl that sounds better. I drew no hard line, but I’m not stupid enough to not understand MoFi’s deceptive practices and pricing is the main issue. I own Mofi pressings and One Steps, along with Craft Recordings, Music on Vinyl, Analogue Production and Bluenote Tone Poet and their Classic series.
When it comes to companies it is the greed that usually bring them down and Mofi thought that doing the interview with Mike Esposito, a novice and not a journalist, they could control the narrative, but this thing has grown legs of its own to appear in the Washington Post and stupid statements by Jim Davis isn’t helping. I think Mofi will suffer loses, but will survive overall, but this will hurt Music Direct’s sales because some people can’t separate one part of the process from the other and some will want no part of neither.
Music Direct and the company as a hold has to reduce prices and be transparent because companies like Bluenote with the Tone Poet stuff and Music on Vinyl have paved the path for doing so. How is that Kuzbass Stabi R and did you sell your Technics 1200g? Keep up the good work and I’m always interested in your prospective.
At the end of the day, MoFi was padding its profits on the analog dreams of its "audiophile" customers. MoFo is DEAD TO ME.
There should be a class action on mofi charging almost double while being a digital transfer simple they lied and a lot of customers paid top doller for something that should of been half the price many would of never paid what they where asking
The WAPO article was FANTASTIC! I understand much more now. Thanks for that! 👍🏼
New records need to sound like the original records sounded when new.
All record companies need to be clear about their production process.
If we enthusiasts want new pressings of old records we have to buy records made from digital transfers. There’s no way to keep copying old master tapes indefinitely.
My concern is that the new records be true to the original sound of the old records.
you are absolutely right. I too have to bring the attention to the pretend scarcety aspect and the too high price in respond to comments on many UA-cam channels. So let's keep focussing on that.
I totally agree on your points, Guido. .. but also .. I LOVE the sound that Analog vinyl gives me. I’m not so much of a fan of Digital on vinyl (can’t see the point, might as well buy either an SACD or a CD). I’ve found a solution for me. Going forward, I’m going to limit my vinyl purchases to pre-digital, original pressings; where I’m assured everything will be produced in the Analog domain.
I am afraid many will do that, and prices will hit the ceiling...but the important for me is that people experience a true analog release, possibly when the tapes and tape machines, lathes, pressing plants etc where FRESH!
@@anadialog Indeed. If I can be sure that I'm listening to a completely Analog release (Analogue Productions / Blue Note), then yes .. I'll buy them, for sure. .. but most modern pressings will have some digital step in the process. It's those I'm avoiding. EDIT: Written for my other UA-cam account. Sorry.
You do know that a fair number of AP records were cut from digital files right?
@@scottwheeler2679 Not according to Adrian from AP they aren't. Feel free to email them yourself for clarification.
@@kenworthing472 I don't need clarification. Chad admitted as much in his interview on 45 rpm Audiophile ua-cam.com/video/tmW_yfEBmVM/v-deo.html
I have seven or eight DMM recordings on vinyl (obviously) and in the years which were quite some time ago that I purchased them they sounded truly different (possibly a little hard in the upper mid range and higher) but very very high quality listenable releases.
I just want to say this video was great. I have never bought into this whole thing and I am glad to say so. I have always thought the prices for these were too steep. I can understand how many buyers of these products are and should be so upset. In my opinion these records are only worth about 20 to 30 bucks new I would say and less used.
Trouble with original pressings done back in the 60 through the 80s are worth a lot, like way too much. I see old titles going for $60 and more. I don't even know the condition of these records. Even the record sleeve is in bad shape. This whole revival of vinyl is ill timed, a time when most people could not possibly care less. I have my 375 records from the past and about 300 CDs. Today many CDs cost no more than they did when first introduced. Vinyl is out of control. Maybe $10 a pop, not $20. I pay between $3 and $4 for the vast majority of vinal recordings. You pay $20 and more and get nothing more than what I got in the past. It's stupid what is going on.
Plenty of people did buy the whole series. That was the idea, create FOMO among the buyers even if it was an album they weren't in love with. I know a guy looking to dump his UD1S collection after this scandal. I suspect many people are doing the same, hence why one shop gave him a low ball offer on the whole thing.
Why do people continue with this B.S.? Mofi’s engineers are making high quality records on very good vinyl and I like the way they sound. Anyone that has ever worked in a large company knows marketing and sales departments do not always tell the truth.
Also, Michael Ludwig from 45 RPM AUDIOPHILE interviewed the guy who wrote the article in the Washington Post. I personally didn’t care for the article in that the author seemed to pit Michael Fremer against Mike from the In Groove, which this situation isn’t about.
I'm glad this is going to court because evidence will be presented that shows that DSD64 is a finer resolution signal than analogue vinyl, so it effectively works as an analogue master. Nobody can hear the difference in any objective testing. DSD was invented as a method for archiving analogue tapes and the DSD Master process allows MoFi to meet demand for their pressings, whilst providing a consistent quality product. Analogue tapes wear out, DSD masters do not. It is therefore objectively better for the consumer.
I get your point but I’m home s is happened g literally at the expense of MoFi
Well said! You're bang on about it being about the money.
Is it analog? Or is it MoFi?
🤣
Ella Fitzgerald for Memorex tapes.
In Printing: Old School: Flats, Positive Film/Negative Film/Plates/Press. Now: Computer/Plates/Press.....
I think everyone should demand their money back. each of these albums cost more than my hi res audio player!
I got my vinyl from music direct not for analog sake but to get music I could not find in SACD. MoFi made a good product.
Demand? There was not ONCE when I was able to get to the purchase button before, every damn time, I would get the "awaiting repress" notice! The only numbers they concerned themselves with was how many the flippers were demanding.
This is balls on accurate. I have two things:
A) Jim Davis didn’t even apologize for LYING to their consumers leading us to believe we were receiving AAA pressings which continues to add insult to injury after the fact, like we are stupid.
B) I will continue to buy certain Mofi titles because they do sound good. I will never buy another one step because as far as I’m concerned they are now a $65 record. More of my money has and will continue to go to AP, speakers corner and the others you mentioned, who are honest an also not trying to fleece us all. I hope Mofi pays for this down the line, financially.
Do you understand why one steps cost 125 dollars? Did you raise a stink when MoFi released The Nightfly?
@@scottwheeler2679 Nightfly was a digital recording. I knew what I was buying. As far as I’m concerned one steps are a 75 dollar record, tops. Imagine what couldn’t stand the weather would’ve sounded like if the source had been analog? Oh wait, I know. It would sound like the AS 45 pressing.
We keep missing the point here. It is not the cost of the product that counts, it is the quantity of copies you can make and sell. I keep using the Thriller example because it's fitting. They are/were about to sell 40.000 copies of that album, that is a 100$ one-step album. With that type of income you completely cut all expenses and make 10 times the income Analog Productions is making for the same album. All because they are cutting from digital and played on the fact that everyone thought it was analog. The only thing that could have saved them or at least reduce the impact of their forgery was a decent price tag.
@@billsoutherland5499 But there are many people here saying that these one steps were not worth the price because they were mastered from a digital file. And yet no one whined about The Nightfly being the same price as other One Steps when it came out.
@@anadialog That is absurd, the cost of the product completely counts when a maker has to set the retail price. And since all of Mofi's catalog is licenced it is the licence that determines how many copies are made, not the technology.And there is no cutting the cost of having to cut new lacquers for every 500 copies by having a larger edition. At least not in any meaningful way. Thriller at 40,000 copies needed about 400 lacquers to be cut to fulfill th limied edition number. That is a huge part of the cost of the product and no one discounts for quantites.and lastly the Mofi one steps were not forgeries.
I'm glad the only record I bought from them was KOB compared to others who have bought shit tons....
Wow, I broke my ankle a week ago and seemed to have missed all the excitement.
A lot of people have egg on their face now. If it sounds good, then it is good. If it sounds bad, then it is bad. If the mastering is done correctly for the respective format it will sound good.
In my opinion an LP should cost about $20 (online) -$25 (B&M). With todays logistics solutions that seems fair. But some have gotten greedy, and others are willing to pay... market economics friends.
I really enjoy the vinyl format, except for right now when I can't get up to change the side of the LP every 25 min 🙂. I spent my money to tune both my digital and analog playback chain to be similar in sound quality... and now I just do like the Doobie Brothers and listen to the music.
I agree regarding the price there charging(way to high) and the fact they've kept this dsd fiasco In the dark for so many years,my question is are they really any better than say music on vinyl who freely admit they source the pressing from digital files of which I've no idea of the quality of there files I'd be curious to find out ...any ideas?
I agree the price is the problem
Uh, why not just release the dsd256 file. Oh, it's not analog.
...and they can't ask 125$ for it! ;-)
It’s not vinyl. Doesn’t have vinyl sound. Doesn’t have the sound of my vinyl rig
Let's not forget what their limited quantities did to the prices in the after market, where those who weren't lucky enough to buy Santana Abraxas One-Step for $125 retail, will have to spend $1900 to get a copy.
That is just ridiculous. Inhope nobody falls for that, especially now! Get an original NM copy of 1970, I saw them on Discigs for as little as 15€ and most importantly it will sound much, much better than the MoFi.
125€? FFS
They are so used to deceiving people that even in an expected interview they couldn't help themselves from do it again.
Their nebulous practices should have real judicial and financial consequences to them.
Good morning Guido. Messaging you from Florida I totally different time zone. Using the words…
“Original Master Recording” is more than misleading. And I’m happy that you are putting this company on the line today.
I agree!
It’s actually quite accurate since that is exactly what they do, use the original master recording
Yes, especially "original master" is supposed to be analogue tape.
@@scottwheeler2679
But they pressed it with digital sources, by that analogy, every CD are also from master tape.
@@andrewlim7751 Some CDs are mastered from the original master tapes. There is no analogy.
Very good video focusing in on a really important aspect of this affair. I have 2 further questions, I would love to know the answers to. First , aimed at MOFI, and is this: Why, when you introduced the DSD part into the chain, did you decide not to tell anyone about it? I can guess at their answer but I would love to hear their explanation.
My second question is aimed more generally, if you were to compare the 4xDSD file with the final vinyl record does one sounds better than another or do they sound the same, all things being equal? Some reviewers, suggest that to them, the vinyl still sounds better than the best commercially available digital file. Assuming this is true (and that they have top quality equipment and no inherent bias towards vinyl ), what´s happened here? Has the vinyl somehow been boosted to sound better than the 4xDSD file or is the final digital version at some point downgraded? If so, is it within the digital files made commercially available or is a limitation placed within CD/SACD digital software playback? Are the owners of the music saying (perhaps reasonably) we can´t let the public have the full master tape quality digital file of the music or the value of our assets will disappear and they will never buy it again. Sorry more that 2 questions.
The fact is that digital on Analog media, like tape and vinyl, just sounds better than its native file. Harmonic distortion makes it more pleasant to the ear.
@@anadialog Interesting, thanks
Michael Fremer depicted in a strange way is always a good thing.
Wow, it has come to this, we are now in court over this issue. Regarding what is going on in the world, this is meaningless and a huge waste of time.
One thing, did you mention that the capacity in the U.S. to produce records is nearly gone?
I'm so glad I only bought one of the one steps.
.... And to think I bought a 45 RPM Dire straits debut album from MOFI..
Costed me 800 DKK (110 €)
This is alot of money to me 😓
And I absolutely resent the sound of that pressing, it's so bright and lean, with a very hot trebble (even though I have the warmest system)
I kept thinking my VTA was off, or other alignment issues..
Yet meanwhile all other old worn out albums sounded superb.
The age old pressing of Dire Straits my dad had in his collection, which I now have, sound pleasantly lush and warm, (it's true analogue afterall)
... This is robbery in broad daylight .. It reads 'FROM MASTER TAPE' at the top....
Unbelievable! What's even more sad is that a lot of people are ok with this because it sounds good (to them). Apart from the fact that you can claim that only of you have listened to an o.g. but in any case this is not the point. The point is deception and high prices for a premium object which is just a digital copy.
@@anadialog Exactly!! Whether I like the sound of the Mofi pressing or not, is irrelevant.
But the fact that I don't just adds insult to injury 🙈
I was always aware of the digital component, but purchased them because I like the artwork and packaging.
Do I think they sound superior ? My answer is no, they don’t to my ears. Slightly better but not 125.00 better. Still they are overpriced.
🤗THANKS GUIDO …I AM HERE TO SUPPORT YOUR CHANNEL 👍we see 👀 your passion…💚💚💚
Thanks man! Means a lot to me!❤️
I think also selling the dsd 256 capture could create a market for mofi. Why they only use the dsd 256 to create vinyl instead of selling the dsd 256 file in addition to the sacd that is dsd 64 so with worse audio quality ?
I can’t help but think of Andrew Jones who just joined the MoFi family, he must be thinking… 🤦♂️
Like an old bottle of precious wine. Every 10 years that bottle is reopened and some of it is used up. You will need $125 and fine discerning taste buds for a sip.
I would love to know if this MoFi mess is going to bring all vinyl prices down. I remember around 2014-2015, I was buying reissues of classic albums like Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop, The Misfits or metal albums, and also vinyl by new artists online from $10.00 to $12.00 to $20.00 tops. Now that's gone, prices for those releases are around $30.00 to $35.00 and up to $50.00-$60.00 for the rarest titles. I had to stop buying those cause I'm not from the US so I have to pay extra shipping and extra taxes in my country. Hate all audiophile vinyl, 200 gram and fancy packaging crap. Well, I don't really hate it, people can buy whatever they want and spend a lot of money but you know what I mean.
I live in Italy...I hear ya!
I don’t think it will, not appreciably anyway.
Despite this controversy, MOFI still Carrie’s the same process and associated costs to produce their offerings.
My guess is they’ll simply offer less of them knowing fewer folks will be interested.
So instead of limited edition of 5000, it’ll be limited to 2000… and folks all about the sound will snap ‘em up quickly.
If anything was recorded in the 80s ,much of it could be digitally recorded anyways like Eye In The Sky by Alan Parsons, it was recoded on analog tape but was mixed and finished in the studio on Digital Tape in 1981 ..If MOFI has a DSD to Vinyl Album of that Title and they do, it is totally legit even though the original digital master was possibly coped to a second analog master for it to be used for tape and vinyl copies to be sold ,a digital master for a analog copy still is not cheating or misleading.. If my MOFI copy of Little Feat SAILING Shoes is DSD ahhh you know well well yes they mislead me in back in 2008 ..
Good video. I Don’t own any Mofi LPs because of two things: the jacket design (the banner on top) takes away from the original cover design, and the labels are terrible. They don’t even try to replicate the original label. Yeah, the price is high too, but I've bought the AP UHQRs before and spent 100+ on collectible (OP) Lps.
Mofi has done some actual all analog LPs and it appears most are their 33 rpm LPs.
Lastly, Fremer needs to update his top 100 all analog LPs to buy..: a few of the Mofi DSD LPs are in his list LoL.
Best wishes
Ottimo video..
Centrato il punto
Va bene ma si può fare a prezzi notevolmente più bassi
This video hit the nail on the head. This issue is a matter of taking premium for a not well described product. At least modi could in due time have debunked the pure analogue myths created around their products, but they didn’t. Bloody amateurs, and now their brand is in tatters.😂
One Question, Back in the Late 70's when Digital recordings came on the scene , the CD was not commercial yet ,normal quality Vinyl records came out, from digital Tape recorders both Classical( James Gallway ) & pop ( Ry Cooder ) but mainly Classical to show the public the quality of digital recordings ( i.e. in future CD would be the main carrier of recorded music to take over Vinyl ) what was the quality of these Vinyl pressings compered to MoFi pressings today?
Some are very good! Especially those produced from who knew what they were doing (very few) like Telarc. We would need the same album for a fair comparison.
Thanks for linking the database. Greetings from Vienna.
Sounds like the real issue is what the price is for a record. Do Mofi's record sound good? If they do then your not happy with price.
"To move to a next title" seems to be the reason. Acceptable one. Other words were redundant imho.
PS I mean Mr. Davis' answer
I have the Tony Bennett album original release in mono.
I totally agree! If you charge money (big money) for a "pure" product, it should be done done "purely" (no interruptions in the chain)! No matter how good digital cuts are (and they can sound damn near like the tape) , it's NOT a pure wave form which is what we pay top dollar for!
They didn’t charge for a “pure” process whatever that means. No mastering chain to lacquer is “pure” they charge for the work that goes into their mastering and for their cost of licensing and production. In the case of the one steps they charge for the extra cost of doing one step stampers.
That's the delusion, right there. There is no pure waveform. Vinyl has severe technical limitations. What actually happened is that technicians learned to manipulate the sound recordings within the envelope, to create pressings that sounded good to people's ears.
@@audioupgrades One of several dellusions.
Perfectly presented. It's the $$$ and is not a Digital vs Analog issue.
I don't like the term "scandal" or "problems" when the problems are really what is happening with the "master tapes" and how if reissues are allowed to be handled over the last 10+ years, what companies, who are doing to the reissues, have to do to make this happen. We keep forgetting that the issues how many times the owners of the masters will allow them to be played for a "reissue", and where this gets to take place? Most customers have no idea of the cost associated with this transfer work and what has to be done with the realignment of the playback machine's head at the splice points (this happens), if there are any. I think the idea of the "one step process" has a bunch of little steps in the middle of all of this and does degrade ever so slightly that this AAA is the only way issue. The tape is a magnetic medium and is converted by any tape recorder through the electronics to an analog signal (one step); then sent to the cutting lathe's electronics to make the lathe stylus move to cut the lacquer (step 2); ( maybe EQ is applied or not, but a possibility it is a choice that was made), then all the steps in the plating process to be able to make the stampers (many steps within step 3 of the process). There is so much quality control that must be met to make all this happen that it is amazing vinyl LPs sound as good as they do. Depending upon the quantity of the production run will decide how many times the master can be played (allowed) or if a copy has to be made and is that another step removed from the master tape to another tape or to some high resolution, digital format: (DSD to SACD; or to 24/192 or 24/384 to be able to make many lacquers). I cannot believe anyone who could listen to these digital files on a Halo May or a Weiss 502, BenchMark Media,or a DCS stack feels like they are missing something. Ever since I bought my Stereophile Class A rated DACs have I felt I am not hearing all that the rest of my system will allow me to hear. Digital has come so far with high resolution formats that I see little to complain about in 2022. Most are not even taking advantage of these high-resolution formats for their music playback with all the streaming going on. I have some of these MoFi releases on LP and SACD that have come from a DSD transfer and find nothing to complain about in terms of sound quality or feel that I have suffered "some loss" because of it. Do any of us have any idea that the original pressing of the maiden LPs were made in the best possible way anyway? NO! Was the mastering of that original LP perfect? No! We all have LPs that are less than stellar presentations of the musical performance. I hardly think that any of this is the crime of the century, other than not being more up front about it. I think much of this has to do with not knowing all of the steps and the processes that must take place for any reissue to happen and the reality of the absolute best way to do this over the last 15-20 years. The real industry loss is the failure for the industry to not take the digital format to 24/96 and press DVD-Vs of them and allow them to be played back on any DVD player with a high quality DAC. To me a silver disc is a silver disc, and to not have our music presented in 24/96 for every release is a badly missed opportunity by the music business and that would not have changed the cost in any appreciable way. The sad part is that I still have new CD releases that are mastered poorly and overly compressed and peak limited. Some I have also bought the LPs to only find out they are not any better sounding. Sadly, not everyone in the music delivery business knows what they are doing.
But: Charging 125 dollars for that? Really???
@@filmnarr163 Let the buyer be ware. No one is forcing them to buy it.
@@jtavegia5845 Yes, but he should know, WHAT he buys.
@@filmnarr163 So what do you think it would cost if it was an AAA release with only a few able to be made, and it would not be $150. The problem is that for many this is just like BitCoin and are never played.
Probably in the comments already, but Music Direct owns MOFI. They bought MFSL which was the original company from 1977. AND actually their website now shows that Natalie Merchant's Tiger Lily from 2007 shows to be from DSD 64. And I'm sure more will "come out of the woodwork".
Yes, I presented it the other way around. Thanks for pointing that out.
Applauso per Guido! Price issue, that is the point!!!
About the prices of MFSL and Analogue Productions.
Regular 33rpm MFSL ORM vs. AP, both $40,=
Regular 45rpm MFSL ORM vs. AP, both $60,=
MFSL 33rpm one step vs. AP 45rpm UHQR, both $100,=
MFSL 45rpm one step vs. AP 45rpm UHQR, both $125,=
So what’s the difference?
For me the next question remains; Why doesn't MFSL/MOFI get the original master to use and others do?
For example Texas Flood and Kind of Blue.
Greed. Chad Kassem isn't s normal business man. First if all he is a customer and an audiophile like us. Money is good, but he takes much more pleasure in reissueing an album he loves and wants to share that with everybody. Only that kind of passion brings that amazing quality.
And now the AP 45 rpm Kind Of Blue is $150!!!😢
Class action against MoFi should be dismissed because not one customer can demonstrate "loss". They enjoyed the records for years until they found out.
I think you should investigate on enjoy. Not many were that in to MoFi, including myself. I only have 6 or 7 while I have dozens of Analogue Productions for example or speakers corner or pure pleasure etc etc
There is only a very small difference in quality between DSD64 and DSD256. It's like the difference between an amplifier of €5000,- and one of €50.000,- Booth are normally very, very good.
DSD64 is already much better as PCM 24-192 for example. But more important and till now many people forget this: the remastering tools, remixing tools etcetera are almost all PCM based! And all remastering companies are using these tools. And what happens in the necessary conversion from DSD to PCM? Loss of quality. That's a very important point in the discussion too. Another important aspect at the MoFi Gate: Sony and Warner possess a vast amount of analog tapes, but all these tapes are already copied digitally. In the eighties to PCM formats and from 2000 on to DSD. If a record company like to publish a remaster they become a digital copy. They don't give access to original tapes! The story that MoFi goes to Sony with their recorders is fake; it's a lie.
Please, provide proof that MoFi doesn’t go to Sony to record from the analog master tapes to DSD with MoFi’s own equipment.
@@tamstutz921 You can't prove a negative, so it's actually you, or Mofi, that has to prove that it happens.
@@audioupgrades False. The statement “it’s a lie” is a positive allegation. Prove it.
Kevin Gray says there are serious sound problems with both 64 and 128, but 256 seems to have solved it, so in his opinion, big difference in sound quality.
@@fearlessflyersfpv420 He's referencing noise shaping for DSD. Noise in the audible band is shifted high above audible frequencies and then filtered out. Some people don't like the theory of that but it's no practical problem.
Original pressings are going to go up in value.
Does this mean it only makes sense the buy the MoFi SACD releases?
I have only one SACD from them...this is what happened: ua-cam.com/video/xtIdGDk4g0M/v-deo.html
I don't kow your name but you can be my candidate for president, good video 🙌🙌
Guido!
My old cassette deck broke so i bought another one which i got for £55. It is a Technics RS- M10. So will be back to cassettes this week. I like cassettes as in the 1980s they were cheaper and i still have my recording from the weekly top 40 chat show. Here bbc radio 1 and the local station both has their own top 40 show. Bbc was the official chart and the local station has the chats from independent record stores. :)
Well said, great video, and thanks for info!😎👍
What should be the costs? $50 ? ?
I think you're missing the main point for a lot of people - and that is, that they insist on vinyl being produced from analogue tapes ONLY - preferably the original masters - with no digital input whatsoever. Those who have super-duper hearing claim they can hear the source format when they listen to a Mobile Fidelity LP and they object strongly if it's ever a digital source. My love is SACD so I am, not surprisingly, perfectly happy when DSD is used as the source for recordings, regardless of its resolution. I also believe that it simply isn't possible to keep producing recordings from master tapes. Over time wear is going to take place, so will it be possible in the future to use them for producing another batch of really high-quality "Thriller", or whatever? I don't think so. Like Paul McGowan of PS Audio, I firmly believe that DSD is the "purest" digital source available at present and is therefore best suited for producing recordings long-term. Others may well disagree and they are, of course, entitled to their own opinions.
John, this is one of the side problems that we must face and argue BUT it does not regard MoFi. We must keep focus on the problem IMO.
Personally, as stated all over the place in my channel, I have no problem with digitally sourced records. In my recent video on the best sounding records used as test discs, I also included a Mark Avenue record which are all from digital!
I never liked very much MoFi, not even the old records very much. In fact I have all together less than 10. I also have a SACD, which is so bad It's unbelievable. But that is another story, which usually can find here if you interested: ua-cam.com/video/xtIdGDk4g0M/v-deo.html
FIY I also did a detailed video on DSD with a special test: if interested once again here is the link: ua-cam.com/video/eu5I-z7f6is/v-deo.html
As time goes by all things will change eventually its just the way of the world people just want to make money the product is losing its importance and people are supporting this so it shall be .
I can't decide whether to cancel my Thriller pre-order or not.
Maybe this can help you: go to discogs and order an original pressing. It will sound better than the MoFi version, it will be much cheaper (clearly less cheaper than a few months ago) and the original thing, when it came out. A piece of history.
@@anadialog I actually have two original pressings. I just thought that the one-step versions were supposed to have the best sound. I think I'm going to cancel the pre-order. Thanks.
@@anadialog how do you know the original pressing will sound better than the MoFi version? have you heard the MoFi version?
Well done !*** All the best GEORG
I agree with everything except that DSD 256 is "four times better" than DSD 64. It really isn't, if what you are talking about is sound quality. It may well be better on a very high quality system, but four times ? I suspect in most cases, the average audiophile ( and I include myself ) would struggle to tell the difference when listening to a digital file, and once it goes through the analog pressing process I suspect the difference is even less. Having said that, I still want the best quality possible.
You may argue that my equipment isn't good enough to hear it, but I use an Aries G2 streamer and Terminator Plus DAC, so not chump change.
Although I think that SACD (DSD64) are a shame in audio I do think that native DSD128 and 256 recordings are very good. Probably becaus SACDs are mixed in PCM. In any case what I intended is not 4 times better in overall sonics but 4 times better the resolution.
Has anyone pointed out the fact that everyone’s records have now been devalued in the resale market?
Good point.
i hated my music of my mind mofi,just got a first press american copy god its fantastic ...
Time for a good CD transport and DAC!
Got'em! 😎
ALL vinyl is snake oil at ANY price, EXCEPT if the SOURCE tapes have deteriorated or unavailable, and all you have is original plastics,
or first pressing being mastered better than the loudness wars audio butcheries,
sell me or stream the Hires files, most DACs are just as good as the one at the cutting head facility.
No. Vinyl is real and makes an audible difference. Not snake oil
@@scottwheeler2679 sure it makes an audible difference, it adds distortion that wasn’t part of the music, temporal (wow & flutter ), linear ( FR response) and non-linear ( Harmonics , frequencies that are not part of the original signal), and noise obviously, and distortion beyond this post ( signal deformation especially inner tracks )
Is EVERYONE so very sure that DSD256 is TRULY the VERY FINEST means of Digital Capture and Playback under Best Possible Signal INTEGRITY OBSERVED AND IMPLEMENTED?
Among what is digitally available, it probably is even though DSD noise shaping gives me the shivers...a good compromise could be DAT! ;-)
This discussion of analogue and digital makes me want to laugh and has silly aspects. When they say they prefer full analogue recording (AAA) what does that mean? What does an analog recording guarantee in terms of sound quality? ANYTHING. Does a recording just because it is analog guarantee to be within the parameters of audiophile sound quality? NOT. What interests me and should interest everyone who likes music/sound, is that the recordings in the studio or elsewhere are of audiophile quality. But little or nothing is said about this. What matters is that the music is on a vinyl sheet (which is full of problems and that it's not worth talking about), and they immediately think it's the best you can have.
Then they get very angry with MoFi because they lied to their passionate customers. OK, they lied, but they also knew who they were lying to. I was lying to "audiophiles" who since 2011 did not suspect, did not hear that that analogue was digital after all.
I end with a joke: do you know why the other audiophile publishers are so silent and quiet? They are in digital mode.
The problem is that 70% of human music...was recorded on tape. So that is the best source by definition. A copy is always going to be a copy no matter how much you work on it. Without mentioning the huge footprint left by converters.
@@anadialog Because 70% of the music has been recorded on tape, it doesn't make it the best recording medium by definition. When digital outnumbers analog audio recordings, that won't make it better. (I have doubts if today there won't be more digital recordings than analog ones. If we compare it with photography, that in a single day it would photograph more in digital than during the entire 1st century of its existence) But this is of little importance.
Yes, a copy will always be a copy. But in digital, can we think like that? Will it be a copy? Is passing digital information from one medium to another a copy? When do we know that the digital is not really attached to any surface?
I even remember that with CDs, "experts" said that a copy made at home by laser and not made by pressure was better than the original, precisely because it was lasered. The laser that writes is the laser that reads. Anyway...
If I understand, when you talk about the footprint left by the converters, are you talking about the DACs? In making DACs? And when they break down and come to an end? If this is what you were referring to, have you ever thought about the vinyl footprint? The tape footprint? The footprint of the turntables? And everything needed to make them. Think carefully. I really think the best thing is to record in digital everything that is in analog as fast as possible.
It might sound like I'm against analogue, but no, nothing. But it's irritating when we see the analogue obsessed defending ridiculous things. They themselves discredit the analog.
What "I want" is to listen to recorded music as best as possible. Recorded within audiophile parameters and not average recordings (analog or digital, it doesn't matter). When I listen to Pink Floyd, when I listen to John Coltrane, The Smiths, Morrissey, Red House Painters, Jazzanova and so on, are these recordings audiophile? So what should I name recordings like The Dialogue of Takeshi Inomata, Patricia Barber's recordings? To the recordings made by Chesky Records? They are not audiophiles, they are a little more than average. But I like their music, even more than Patricia Barber's (sorry Patricia :) ) and this is my music lover side - in Portuguese we have this word "melómano" for those who love and are interested in music - and audiophile those who "must" be a music lover and enjoy high quality recorded music. What reinforces the taste for music and audio.
What i find amassing is: despite there being a market for totally analogue music... the music industry is saying to the customer.... "we have lost the ability, technological and skill to produce analogue music... so you will have to have it digital"... and we call this progress?
Digital is great. It's the COST here that is a problem
They haven’t lost the ability. The majors simply want to protect a fragile priceless artifact. That they can transparently transcribe a signal from these tapes and even fix inherent colorations or n analog tape playback IS progress.
It is just a short cut by this company, and nothing else. And for the price... unbelieveable.
@@puttyputty123 It's not a short cut. It actually adds a step. But more importantly it gives them the time to more carefully consider their mastering movs and it gives them the ability to directly compare any mastering moves to the original signal coming off of the tape.
@@scottwheeler2679 I would have to respectfully disagree. To my knowledge there are around 88 fully functioning disc-cutting lathes left on the planet. They were all made pre 1980s by 3 main manufacturers, Neumann, Scully and Lyrec. Nobody is making spares for these machines so owners need to have the engineering skills to make the parts and consumables to keep them serviceable.
Then we get onto cutting the stylus. There are only a small number of companies that can re-sharpen cutting styli and there is currently a waiting time for re-sharpening. Engineers have reverted to using diamond styli to cut disks because original ruby styli are so hard to get hold of. (Rubies are preferred over diamonds as they have greater temperature stability and are easier to sharpen... one ruby stylus will cut around 100 lacquers).
Then there is also a shortage of lacquers. Only 2 companies make them. One in Japan and one in Europe.
And then we get on to cutting engineers. Most of the people that have the skills to cut and master vinyl are nearing retirement age.
Analogue Signal processing equipment:
Due to the constraints of vinyl, "any out of phase" stereo signal below 300Hz needs to be summed to mono to prevent the stylus digging in to the lacquer and making contact with the inner aluminium plate.
The bit of kit that prevents this is called an "Elliptical Equaliser" and they were made by Fairchild. They are vacuum tube devices, extremely difficult to find and can cost more than a cutting lathe.
Most cutting / mastering engineers do their Elliptical Equalisation "in-the-box".... i.e. they do it digitally with DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) software via a VST Plugin and then convert back to analogue.
The same goes for acceleration limiting. Hi end frequencies must NOT be allowed to accelerate too quickly or you will cut a groove that no tonearm and stylus combination would be able to track. Finding analogue acceleration limiters is extremely difficult.
To my knowledge there is a semi retired bloke in Germany who hand builds them... if you ask him very nicely he will build you one. If he does not like you... forget it.... You will have to do it digitally "in-the-box".
Master tapes usually have a frequency range from 35Hz to 60KHz and a dynamic range of up to 115dB.
Vinyl has a frequency range of 7Hz to 122KHz and a dynamic range of 70dB. So the dynamic range of the signal will need to be compressed a little. Fortunately, we are not short of analogue compressors.... But you need skill to use one. To much compression to the cutting head will cause the coils that drive the torque tube to over heat. So you best know how to rebuild a cutting head because there is about 6 weeks lead time on that being rebuilt.
I don't "know-it-all" but i am learning these dying skills because someone has to. Or they will be lost!
So i openly invite any cutting / mastering engineers out there to put me right if i have explained the situation incorrectly.
I hope this explains the sate of play with vinyl analogue mastering.
YES! its the money! getting the DSD to Vinyl, that's great! Nothing wrong with digital. You're gonna produce the best vinyl quality there is, and they HAVE. but $100 a pop? geez!
One step: convert analog to digital, convert digital to analog, either convert back to digital or cut record from twice converted analog signal, etc etc.
I resent the term MoFi Gate. When Nixon had the Presidential tapes erased, they were indeed anaglog master tapes. I think the term MoFi Prolapse makes more sense. As it was a professional lapse of judgement on the part of MoFi not to tell its customers.
Yes insightful....this has turned into a big gaping mess.
“Octave Records” are totally transparent, their LP’s (33 1/3 or 45 Rpm,180 gr vinyl) are all based on an original DSD recording Master!!!
...and Paul says, that the vinyl sounds better, even if he does not understand why 😅
Were'd ya get that T-shirt?
Right here: anadialog-gear.creator-spring.com/ that design is out of production for now
Hey Guido.
I believe MOFI will get off the hook, and continue business as usual. Manufactures decide what they ask for their products. It's allowed and (unfortunately) their right.
In the hifi world it's common that some manufactures ask sick prices for gear which isn't any better, and in some cases way worse than other manufactures products. And though it's known by most, no one has tried to sue them or otherwise change their business methods. No names, but it shouldn't be necessary either - You know who they are. Though they have a bad name they also still have customers. Trust me; Greed pays and the evidence is right in front of our noses.
MOFI can kick back and relax because nothing serious is gonna happen. They win that lawsuit if it's filed, the plaintiffs picks up the tap and end up paying more than they already have. They might even risk a countersuit for hurting business (hope they know what they are in for). Business might be slow for a while, but since peoples memory is short, that won't be for long, and meanwhile MOFI have an excuse for making limited editions for the same or even higher prices.
This whole thing will end up biting the customers in the butt as usual. Now the rest of the industry have seen what people are willing to pay, and what MOFI is going to get away with - The prices will be going up all over. This probably won't make you less upset about this whole thing, but I'm afraid this is exactly what is going to happen.
Isn't this by the way a sign that we have reached a point where the best digital media is analog? We don't have physical digital medias with the capacity for an album with the bit and samplerate necessary it takes to fool top reviewers. Harddrives are notoriously short lived, and will for good reason probably not be trusted by many to carry their music into the future.
To deliver the quality hi-res offers, and being the most long lasting consumer media we have, wouldn't you say that vinyl is a serious candidate?
Stay awesome mate.
Desolating. Probably true but I do hope the community, labels and consumers learn also a positive lesson from this and not just forget or is this to pull the cord even further.
I don’t think this is going anywhere. The price charged by a commercial company is not something that can be challenged in court. The cost of production is irrelevant as far as the sales price is concerned - it’s just a commercial decision. It all comes down to whether they deliberately misled the public over what they were buying. I’m not convinced they did, but we will see in due course. I understand why people feel cheated, but we’re they misled into buying the records? Don’t know.
Good point... Nice video as always 👍
I concur with the community annoyance about this deception from Mofi.
If I want DSD I use a good DAC for that purpose. Why in the world I would want to play a digital file converted into a format that loses quality just for being pressed and played. That it can lose quality if its not handled and stored properly. Then you need a good turntable, a good matching cartridge properly aligned and calibrated. That's why in my opinion, Mofi's argument about that they just wanted to achieve the best sound quality for a vinyl is just BS. It's not just the quality of sound... many of us that love Vinyl, are in search not just for a "perfect sound", we want the ORIGINAL sound, and want to be kept away from remastering and compression. Surely we want the best possible sound quality, according to the format limitations and qualities, the closest we can get from the ORIGINAL MASTER. but Vinyl is not just about the ultimate sound, some of us want to make a brief time travel to the past, listening to vintage music the way it sounded when it was released or when it was played in the old man's turntable back then.
Indeed. Another problem that is little addressed is the analog to digital converters sound signature (sure, also analog equipment does, but in a different way). I did DSD vs PCM recordings from vinyl with my RME converter, everything sounded the same after.
The digital step doesn’t change the sound. If you want the original sound seek out flat hi res digital transfers. You won’t get it from vinyl and you won’t get it from mastering engineers that tweak the source signal to get better sound
@@scottwheeler2679 I respect your opinion, any subjective point of view, depends on our personal experience and our biases. If your ears don't find any difference between digital and analog reproduction it's ok and you may not be interested in to AAA sources. "Original Master recording" legend In the top of an album, suggests that no post production mastering or tweaks have been added to the recording. Even if I find Digital transfers from the master recordings, the sound will depend on my DAC. So the topic is not about my turntable, DAC or player, is about the recording and the source. It's like stating that digital watches are more precise than automatic watches, after selling thousands of quartz watches at the price of automatics. The craftsmanship, the devotion to tradition and the whole experience is different. In that case we could even build a DAC that looks like a turntable and claim that nobody needs a turntable anymore. Surely this is very controversial, every single person has different approaches to this hobby, every single one of them are valid.
@@anadialog +1👍
Audible transparency is not a matter of subjective opinion. It’s objective. Either there is an audible difference or there is not. MoFi did use the original master tapes. And the trade mark does not suggest they ever did flat transfers. That goes for other audiophile labels including ones that have the word “analog” in their brand name.
Bravissimo Guido ci vuole sempre qualcuno che si incazzi per queste cose .Cmq gli americani su queste cose nn ci passano sopra ,noi faremmo spallucce e basta .
Hello. Could you please put a direct link to Pure Neo. When I type this word into my Google search, I get nowhere. Thanks for an informative episode.
There is a link in the video description!
Here it is! www.pure-neo.io/music/sonically-oustanding-vinyl-reissues
There is a way to make hundreds of lacquers from ONE PASS of the ORIGINAL TAPE ! But it would involve manufacturing more cutting Lathes. It's easy.... you play the master tape ONCE (just like you would to make a DSD file).... but pass it through your analogue signal processing chain.... to a machine shop full of cutting lathes.... all cutting the same audio tape source simultaneously. Much the same way compact cassette tapes were duplicated back in the day.
If these master tapes are as valuable as they say they are, and there is a market for analogue vinyl..... it would soon pay for itself.
Yes but lathes are hard to come by.
@@michaelhorgan9525 yes, you don't see them on ebay right! And if you want to buy one, you need to be an industry insider. Just like the knowledge on how to use them... there are no curing schools. That's why we have to build more lathes and educate the young before what is left of our cutting engineers all retire.
Just need a working master tape copy, like they did in the old days!
@@anadialog In the old days most records were cut from 3rd generation cutting copies that had compression and EQ as well as bass summed to mono and rolled bass and highs mixed into them. From the late 70s onward most of those records cut from those 3rd generation tapes were cut on lathes that did a low res AD/DA conversion for the preview so they could easily control the groove spacing nd get way too much time on each side of the record. And those same lathes had their own built in compression/limiters. Maybe we should bring a class action lawsuit against the old labels for not disclosing the use of DACs on their mastering consoles. You may think all those old records are all analog. If they were post 1978 chances are they also have a digital step. Only a really low res digital step. Think about that for a while...
Damn as I see it audiophiles are pissed off because it came out they couldn’t tell the difference between Did you know digital from analog. So they are going tie up the courts with stupid cases! Bottom line if the music sounds good then the company has done its job! The prices are insane I wouldn’t pay that no matter how it sounds! This bs is starting to limit collecting to the very wealthy or very stupid! I enjoy your videos PLEASE go back to your regular topics. In my sixty years of collecting I’ve watched these investing trends go and come. Sometime in the future these “collectors “ will be left holding a lot of hundred dollar records no one wants.
they didn't have an analogue version with which to compare it, so your argument is fallacious
The comparisons have been done time and time again. If done blind no one can reliably identify any differences.
That is a good point you have there.
The only difference is digitize from master tape and fixing that DSD file that is little bit more work.
But when the DSD file is in shape. They can do endless of LPs and they are doing exactly the same process as any other issued album that uses the more common one step process!
(Nothing special with that actually one step is the more common one than doing the fater-mother-son stampers. That process is used when a higher number of LPs is needed to be done. And most/majority artists are smaller ones and just need to do a lower number of LPs. So one step is more the norm..)
Yes I get also wind up that they glorify the one-step process and say that they cut from analog master tape. And make it to sound exclusive with a limited number of records produced.
They got greedier and greedier by increasing the number of that "limited" numbers until thriller and 40000 exposed their dirty business ethics.
So they can take a extra 100 USD for the same album.. 🤮
No. Three step is the norm. One steps are very unusual and a lot more cost
@@scottwheeler2679 Maybe it was the norm. When tape were used. And they they archived metal parts to be able to make more stampers from them at a later time.
But for every big artist/group (Michael Jackson, Beatles, Miles Davis and so on) there is probably 1000 other artists/groups today including those that make electronic music on computers. (And you can simply go online and order a run as low quantanty as 300/500 records.)
We have a digital master today and cutting a lacquer (or DMM) from that today or 50 years in the future will give us the same results so why would we store that majority of metal parts for when we can store the digital master instead.
That is the old and obsolete way to do it and only logical to do when you have higher number of LPs that's going to be produced and from a tape.
For example it makes sense that Bernie Grundman cut a lacquer from tape and they make metal parts from that lacquer and archive it. For old big artists.
Those small artists of today that are big enough to give out a record to their smaller audience and want give some of them the choice to be able to be able to by their album on a LP.
They that only need a ~500 copies for distribution to some record stores and selling online.
Why should LP manufacturer NOT do one-step when they get such order to produce ~500 LPs from a digital master?
Should they put more work into the order and make more steps with unnecessary metal parts also needs to be archived also? All that cost money. (There we disagree but yes it will COST more IF you make a more costly choice, for example making a large run of thriller 40 000 LP and want to use one step then you need to cut ~80 lacquers that is not the norm. Yes that is not the NORMAL use case for one step. I try to give you example of a normal use case.)
When they can offer a lower price to the record labels by doing one step. And all record labels need to do is archive the digital master and that is what they need to do anyway.
So IF the need to make another batch (reissue) there is no problem/issue.
(But I have not the data my self and it is second hand information. Maybe you have data/information from a pressing plant that they do one steps seldom?)
@@AmazonasBiotop 3 step pressing was and still is the norm. There have been just a small handful of one step pressings in the history of records. Off the top of my head aside from Mofi I can cite two other examples. A premium version of their recordings offered by Waterlilly back in the 90s and one new record just released by Impex. What other records can you cite that were one steps?
@@scottwheeler2679
That is hard to find out as the example with MOFI shows clearly that those types of details are not something that are any transparency around and are not documented.
But a quick search I found fluance (of some reason..) and a pressing plant that is straight from the horse mouth.
That they both point out that the 3 step has the advantage that the father is a backup AND for larger runs. (That is WHY and the benefits of 3 step)
When digital do not need a physical backup and both of them say a stamper last 500-1000 copies. So if you only want to make ~500 copies then I would be very surprised if a customer that is ordering a batch of ~500 copies are willing to pay for extra work and materials like doing extra plating to get a mother from the father and then again extra plating to get a stamper (son) from that mother just to get hold of stampers.. that they already had (father)!
Plus unnecessary storing a father without any reason (totally unnecessary).
Those time and material consuming platings is better used to plate two other lacquers and then you can make 3 different albums with the same effort and materials IF their releases are somewhere 500-1000 LPs.
As you see a better use of resources and more income for pressing plants and lower price for record labels.
So probably the one step is predominant today with modern music and there is no way that we can extract that info from our shelfs of LPs or top of our head, in my humble opinion.
From fluance.com:
"You can do a multiple step process that creates backups of that lacquer if you do larger runs of that record. The 1-step process creates a stamper which allows you to press about 1,000 records depending on if you are pressing on 140 gram or 180 gram vinyl. A 2-step process creates a “mother” which is a backup of the master and can create 7 or 8 stampers and a 3-step process creates “father” which is a backup of the backup master."
(Below gzvinyl is calling it two step that MOFI calls one step.)
Gzvinyl.com record manufacturer:
"Alternatively, manufacturers can use a two-step process, where the father, the first nickel plate created, is used as the stamper. The three-step process outlined above, however, is industry best practice, as it reserves the father plate as a backup in the likely case that the mother degrades while making stampers."
And GZ also state:
"This stamper can then be used to press 500-1000 vinyl records. It is possible to produce several stampers from 1 mother repeatedly after several years, which is advantageous both for higher quantity pressings as well as for reissues."
@@AmazonasBiotop No, it's not hard to find out. Not sure what you mean by "Mofi shows clearly those types of details are not something that are any transparency around and are not documented." I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here
I honestly don't give a crap about this supposed scandal and I wish it would just disappear.
It is all over UA-cam, interfering with what I want to find.
I kind of figured there would be some sort of class action lawsuit involved. I do feel bad for the many people have spent thousands of USDs on these records. I think that if this goes through, this could very well be the end of MoFi and others like it but we will see. There definitely is a "slight of hand" or a "bait and switch" tactic played from my POV but that's just my opinion.
I still go back to, if it sounds good and you were satisfied with the money paid (meaning no buyer's remorse), isn't that what it is all about? Or, do audiophiles believe that "if it were only analog", that it would be that much better than the DSD | One Step stuff that MoFi claimed?
I honestly do not know as I don't own any MoFi records nor have a system that would give it justice.
Keep up the good work, will keep tabs on how this gets played out.
Not just in the Audiophile community.... Bass players and guitarist are taking out a class action lawsuit on Fender for over charging for their guitars. It would appear "Squier Guitars" (which are considerably cheaper) are equally as good and in some cases better than the equivalent Fender models.
For those that don't know... Squier (a company owned by Fender USA) offer budget range versions of Fender guitars and basses, made to the same physical "blueprint", but to a "lower spec" and manufactured out in the Far East.
Also, it looks like Fender are laying off workers as a result.
It is about authenticity. The product is not what it was advertised as being. I would rather have an all analog early pressing than a digital record. If I wanted digital playback, I would stream from a hi res service for a fraction of the price. If you gave your wife a fake diamond ring and implied it was a diamond, you better believe she will be upset when/if she finds out it is not authentic. If you gave her a fake ring and told her up front, the outcome would be different. Same could be said about mofi. I don’t understand why so many people are missing this point. Mofi knew they were misleading people and charged the premium price for a digital record.
@@mikearbia5272 Yes, I understand that completely. (Never dupe the wife, Ha) I definitely believe there was an intent to mislead the customer by MoFi's part but we will see. Time will tell.
It was never about authenticity until people found out MoFi was using digital files. You will not find a single post on any audiophile forum or in any MoFi review that mentions “authenticity” it was about sound quality until customers who loved these same MoFi releases for their great sound found out there was a digital step
@@scottwheeler2679 for some of us it is 100% about authenticity. I never believed mofi records were the be all end all reissues. They charge a premium for a glorified SACD.