Some points that this video missed: - Silver reacts with sulfur in the atmosphere to turn black. It doesn't oxidize under normal circumstances. - Tin is very good for plating in connectors because it's soft so it molds to the microscopic imperfections so you have much more contact area. However it suffers from tin pest which means that at low temperatures (13.2 °C and below) it's atoms rearrange in a way that makes it non-conductive so it's not great for cold/winter outdoor conditions. Some people mistake this for oxidation. - Metal conductivity doesn't matter in plating. The layer is much too thin to impact it. What is more important is corrosion and wear resistance - Copper is a pain to work with. It doesn't plate well, doesn't stick well and oxidizes easily when passing current through it. It's good for it to be the meat of the wire and not the condom - Nickel is arguably the best for repeated connection-disconnection. It's hard, resistant to corrosion, fairly conductive and easy to plate (no really, it will stick to most metal like your ex sticks to your bank account)
Victor, everything you said is correct, except for "Metal conductivity doesn't matter in plating". Research has proven higher conductivity results in lower intermodulation distortion introduced by connectors: ieeexplore.ieee.org/ielaam/22/8681220/8632973-aam.pdf
I recently graduated from an aerospace background in university and I'm so surprised how many common topics show up between audio engineering and aircraft maintenance
@@DaveRat like I could see how stuff like resistance, impedance, data loss, encoding and stuff would appear in both industries but I’d never expect galvanic corrosion to pop up again but it makes so much sense. Learning so much from your channel man, just applied to do my masters degree in audio recording/mixing to do a complete career change and your vids are helping so much!!! Keep up the awesome work!
Hmm. I’ve been a Master Plumber for several years now and galvanic action is always a high concern. I’ve replaced many copper pipes that were corroded due to being strapped or supported with steel. I had never thought about if or how it would apply to our bands live setup. Very interesting information to consider, as always. Thanks Mr Dave.
Can you tell a bit more about what you experienced with the pipes? According to the literature during galvanic corrosion the least noble metal gets corroded while the more noble metal gets protected. In this case the iron atoms should flow towards, and deposit on the copper. So why did you need to replace the pipes if they were in contact with steel?
@@victorunbea8451 I’ll try. Typically when I crawl under a house or get in the ceiling of a commercial building the leak is at a point of contact with a piece of galvanized steel strapping (which you’re not supposed to, but I digress). Several pinholes and the like that I’ve fixed in copper have been friction related and will wear from inside out but those are usually really old systems and utilize copper 2-hole straps and the walls have become very thin so it’s obviously friction, IMO. But the ones I’ve fixed that were strapped with iron always have the hole where the steel and copper contacted and wore from outside to in. Obviously, there have been a couple of times where it was a friction issue and the steel just rubs the copper long enough to degrade its integrity. But those are very rare cases, and most of the time you won’t pass an inspection in the first place if your pipes can wiggle at an anchor point. Not sure of what the reasons are (did physics in high school, no chemistry classes), but very rarely is it from friction, they just corrode rather than abrade. Might be one of those “it’s great in practice, but how is it in theory” type of situations where an unexpected result occurs. But again, my experience says that a few will abrade, but the vast majority just corrode up and start leaking eventually. My fuel gas code calls for dielectric unions at any contact of dissimilar metal, but it’s not really applicable to strapping water pipe unless you buy “rubber booted” anchors (not sure of the correct term, I just tell the parts house copper or rubber clamps, depending). And again, this is just my anecdotal experience from 11 or 12ish years in the industry. I’m by no means a technical expert, just an “I see what I see” type of thing. And there may be other mitigating factors I haven’t noticed or accounted for, but I like to feel I assess and diagnose most situations with some semblance of thoroughness. But in my opinion I’m a perpetual student, and no expert in any field, no matter how much “experience” I have. So again, it’s all speculation and personal anecdotal experience from me, and I would assume I should be taken with many grains of salt.
Wow, that was super helpful! I'm an audiophile and I recently changed cables and it's interesting to know why the sound changed a bit when I did do the cable swap. Now I'm on the lookout for cable terminators that's the same material as the terminals for my speaker and amp.
I just thought of that.. I guess we should use the same material as the jacks on on the actual mixer, speaker and amps.. btw I haven’t watched the whole video yet
Though the probability that there is anything close to an audible sonic difference is improbable in the short term. The possibility that there will be issues in the long term is reduced when similar metals are used
As always, wonderful topic. We have changed over to all gold connectors decades ago sind our first Amek Recall RN while it hat all gold connectors. And of course nowadays all the Midas DL251/155/151 stage boxes, audio interfaces and L’acoustic amps have gold connectors. Wenn we did a few changeovers from nickel to gold mid Theater tour all technician had a feeling that there was more detail and that the high frequencies were more fase correct and not so harsh. Was not something we were able to measure but all technicians reprogrammed there desks and used way less eq afterwards.
Great stuff Dave. The years I lived on a sailboat in saltwater taught me a lot about galvanic corrosion and dissimilar metals. So cool to see that explained in a completely different realm with the enormous amounts of tiny audio connections we deal with! Thanks!
The boaters on the thread are well aware of this - many boats have sacrificial zinc anodes connected to other metallic parts that are below the waterline so that they “take one for the team.” Zinc is highly susceptible to galvanic corrosion, and that zinc chunk will deteriorate and save the other parts from the effects of galvanic corrosion. Not to mention boaters dealing with problems with electronics & other metal things not specifically meant for maritime use. People with beach houses putting in outdoor speakers almost always find out the hard way that they need specialty components. Peripherally audio-related: even stainless steel loudspeaker mounts/hardware can fail over time in high chlorine environments such as natatoriums. Chlorine stress corrosion cracking can affect metals, especially where they are not regularly cleaned with fresh water. Speakers are usually up away from being “washed” so the byproducts of chlorine mixed with impurities can sit and go to work. High molybdenum content stainless steel is much more resistant to this issue. There is “One” speaker manufacturer who has a natatorium series of speakers made for these environments.
Thanks Dave, very interesting and informative topic. I just built a bunch of cables for an amp switcher recently and have nickel neutrik connections. I didn't realize I was making a good decision there, but thankful luck prevailed. For future board builds, I'll be better prepared. :)
I have had so many pedal board failures from galvanic corrosion it's crazy. It's a huge problem here in Nova Scotia espesially in the one venue I used to spend at least 100 nights per year and I maintain their rigs in the building. That building is basicially touching the ocean and a few times per year floods during a storm surge and the doors are allways open and the salt air permiates everything. I have traveled with various grades of fine ScotchBrite sheets for many years to quickly clean 1/4" patch cables and jacks on the fly. A great product that I found keeps the corrosion from happening in those extreme conditions is DeOxit Shield S5, it doesnt have the cleaning properties of regular DeOxit D5 but has the continued corrsion protection over time. It was $30 Canadian for a can but the saved downtime was well worth it.
@@DaveRat I have had other equipment fail from that problem as well... Even electrical panels! Stan Rogers folk festival is right on the the ocean and one of the AC panels is on a power pole for one of the tents. We actually had to stop a show and disassemble the panel and clean all of the breaker contacts with files, scotch brite and contact cleaner to restore proper power. It is amazing how a tiny amount of corrosion will send the resistance skyrocketing. I used to have to Deoxit in ear packs while they were in use quite often as well. The band members would give me a signal and I would blast on stage, pull the 1/8" out of the pack, spray in the 1/8" scrub the plug quick and jam it back in while they were still playing.
Next up on Audio Science Review: "Does Gold Make a Difference?" Accompanied by demonstrations like wrapping a power chord (unplugged) around the connector, and hand waving over distortion plots. Thanks Dave for real world experience.
Learned several things in this episode. Many thanks for producing these. Very good info! More/Better info = more tools in the bag for problem solving! Good stuff!
@@DaveRat btw...I LOVE the SuperCat cable!!! I have 5 or 6 of them in various sizes and going to buy some more. Best cable around hands down! thanks for a great product....Love my XLR sniffer too!
Mind blown. I’ve got a cheap speaker from Thomann that’s only been turning on from a 1 foot drop sometimes. Thought it was magic. Thanks for clearing that up. You the best
very interesting (somewhat) unpopular view on things .... an audiophile myself and i always thought its best to have the same kind of plating troughout the system... no need to introduce more variables unless you use it to actively color your system, "galvanic isolation" was a new one for me thanks! :)
Hi Dave and thanks for your always sensible discussions. As a repairs tech I have encountered this contacts issue countless times and reliable long term remedy ime is 'working' such contacts in conjunction with contact cleaner/lubricant that leaves film of oil that isolates the contacts from air exposure and renewed corrosion. Behringer connectors suffer tin plated contact oxidation issue and is their reliability downfall and cause of bad reputation for otherwise generally great products. Once such contacts/connectors are 'treated' they perform long term as they should ime, ditto for plenty of other makes/models. Out gassing from materials like chipboard and mdf also contribute markedly to contact corrosion issue. Interestingly glycol based fog juice protects connectors, disco/club amps pretty much never fail/act up due to contact issues. PS. I am loving the way you are using the chapter indexes like I suggested to you 👍👍👍.
@@DaveRat 👍. I am out in the backyard gardening and listening on a BT speaker to a bunch of your interviews and discussions that I hadn't heard, interesting and great stuff !. Sometime I will get in touch a send you samples of a paradigm shifting dielectric tech (cables etc) that changes everything re live and recorded audio.....clearer and cleaner and more real sound works on any system.
Solder works well as it has tin which is fairly neutral and it forms an air tight bond, and even with dissimilar metals, if the connection is isolated from moisture and salts, the connection will last a long time with minimal issues
Real good video! I've definitely had this problem with cheap 1/4 jacks. It's almost worth replacing the whole jack than scraping them down and worrying about it crackling again.
I've been very interested by this subject for a long time and came across another aspect that I think is also important, that is the conductivity of the metal's oxyde which it will develop eventually. And I remember reading that silver oxyde is almost as good a conductor as silver itself where gold oxyde (even if little of it might appear) is not only a bad conductor, it would be a SEMIconductor, you know, as in chips ans so on... Imagine your signal thru that... Anyway, great shared knowledge Dave, success to you all...
I'm old a jaded and often thing I don't have new things to learn, but I didn't think about galvanic corrosion! That makes a ton of sense. To an extreme (which won't happen for most/all low voltage audio) were the galvanic corrosion issues around aluminum and copper connected wires for home electric!
Yeh this is an ongoing issue, something that should be well know but isn't. One of my early desks ( back in the 80's) had gold plated sockets for the mother board/loom and plain tinned fingers on the channel boards ...... by tinned I mean lead/tin solder ....... realy bad for dissimlar metals/galvanic corrosion ... i had to go thru that desk and clean and re-tin the edge connectors on every channel a couple of times ...... I ended up using contact cleaner/lubricant in an attempt to keep the air out and minimize the corrosion. seen many other situations similar ....... I have seen many bits of audio gear where there are edge connectors go straight onto PCB tracks have caused problems ....... It has been common with some equipment to abandon the sockets and direct solder as a replacement of the sockets. Even when I was young I had two pet hates with guitar players .... cheap gold plated jack plugs and curly guitar cords ........ virtually none of the guitar amps, pedals or DI's have gold plated sockets .... so cheap gold guitar plugs where a guaranteed problem, the gold plate did not last long..
Unrelated to audio, but another major manufacturer that should have known better... Ford. The fuel pump driver module on the 2004+ F-150's has an aluminum housing and sits on a steel frame cross-member above the rear axle, exposed to the great salt bath that happens on our roads every winter. They all eventually fail, often without warning and leaving the truck dead. The revised part includes rubber bushings to keep the aluminum housing about 1/2" off the steel cross-member. Thanks for the info... I've known about this for years, but never considered it with audio connectors!
fascinating! and so interesting. The complexities of the nuances of products being manufactured is truly amazing and the slightest obscure mistake can have huge ripple effects. I know of more than one audio manufacturer that has made reliable products that work great until put into a shipping container and the ocean crossing destroys the connectors and circuit boards.
YOu should've included Brass !! Also the effect's of magnetic metals on signal flow !! Great video , highly informative , not the first time I've heard of or seen this issue !!
I like your observation about connectors inside power amplifiers etc. I see this happen with the internal connectors with a range of pro audio items where the plating on the male and female connectors look similar (old Molex for example) but you have got me thinking that the choice of metals between male and female parts might be slightly different.
So, if I'm understanding correctly... you should solder gold or nickel connectors onto your cables to match the gear they are plugged into. The copper in the cable going to the connector won't create galvanic corrosion itself. Or at least, that can't be controlled.
It's more complicated than that but you can sum it up like this: In galvanic corrosion the more noble (positive potential) element will always attract the least noble one. This means that if you solder gold/nickel to copper then the tin (or tin-lead) in the solder will be the one to corrode leading to weakened connections that can break. Lookup a galvanic potential chart. Generally speaking, metals that are neighbors in the chart don't react with one another. However, consider the flow of electricity in the wire. The galvanic potential is no more than 2-3 volts. If you feed 5V to a connector hooked up to the negative wire then it can be made of iron for all it cares, it will corrode even gold or platinum. This is called cathodic protection.
@@Videditor1067 I'm saying that the metal with the lowest galvanic potential is the one to corrode when no electricity is passed through it. Out of gold, copper and tin, it's tin that's the least noble. However, copper and tin also passivate (form a dense oxide layer that acts like a protective coating) so it's only a problem in very humid or marine environments. The key thing to remember with GC is that it's a problem only when moisture is involved
Solder is good as it seals the connection from outside influences that accelerate the or cause the issues. I don't think it stops the issues but slows them down to very very long time frames that exceed the lifespan of the gear or humans in most cases
What do you think about using Dielectric Grease on Permanent Install or Pedal Boards and Racks? I haven't heard of anyone in the audio world using it on connections, I figured it could be a good use to prevent corrosion like used on automotive batteries.
It's kind of a mixed bag. Dialectic grease winner connection is clamped with a screw clamp, is all good. But for a connection that can be removed it can tend to build up dust and dirt and then if it is plugged and unplugged at any point that dust and dirt can wedge itself into the contacts and make things worse. But if it's never unplugged and sealed from Dustin dirt it could provide a protection barrier from moisture and corrosion.
In computers there is also another phenomenon called electro-migration. (this one irreversible) But galvanic oxydation occurs too. Different topic : old computers sometimes respond well to spending an hour in an oven like 160 to 180°C worked once for me. => that seem to re-settle the soldering points, or possibly cleans some joints. I did a motherboard, with memory and graphics card, all together. the thing still works 2 years after oven.
Future episode idea: Adventures in contact cleaning. Have you ever used contact cleaner on cables and jacks, only to find the contact cleaner destroys plastics in connectors, rendering them so brittle that they crumble? You can use contact cleaner on some electronics devices, cables, and components, and NOT on others. Certain CAT5 jacks for example, crumble, when contact cleaner (meant to be cleaning their pins) touches the plastic in the jack.
Kontakt 60 spray cleaner is quite OK for switches and plugs, but it may eat the coal layers in pots and faders. I use it a lot, no crumbled plastics so far.
I used to fight all the time with Molex connectors on power supply connections to computer equipment on industrial machines. The only sure way I found to fix the connection issues is to cut off the Molex plug and solder the wires directly on the pins. What do you think about products from Caig Laboratories like Deoxit? Channel Master used to make a spray for the silver contacts in the old mechanical tuners in television sets to protect the silver from oxidizing.
Wow. I’ve had problems with my crest amps. Intermittent. Sent in for service and they coulda’t find a problem. Hmmm. I think I’ll open them up and reseat the internals.
The pandemic may be showing the shortcomings of metal/metal connector contact in the pro audio world. A mixer rental house I know of is going through all their desks right now, many of them nearly brand new, because they've been crashing on boot after sitting for a year unused. Makes me wonder if those desks have mixed metal connector junctions. My own Avid desk started suffering this issue as well. Hard to figure out the exact failure point as it's intermittent and only happens when it's booted cold. After it warms up, it never crashes. Going through and reseating all cables will make it stable for a year or 2. Then it's back. Fun times!
How do the consoles know? Does turning them on and off stabilize them? Does being moved around make them more reliable? What about studios where the console doesn't move. What is it that would cause a console to know the difference between being off for a day or a year or less likely to work after off for a year vs turned on everyday? Is there really a diference or is it just a perceived illusion when normally we find all the same faults that occur over a year, during the year and after a year of sitting we actually do d less faults overall but find them in a short time, giving the illusion that sitting dead creates more issues than working constantly?
@@DaveRat I submit the heating/cooling cycle might "work" the connections enough mechanically to keep the oxidation down from expansion/contraction of the mating surfaces. It's an interesting conundrum.
I like that theory. Makes me think maybe turning it on and the heat may burn off moisture and reduce oxidization These are the things I really enjoy where as you dig deeper, simple logic fails to hidden complexities.
@@DaveRat I love your videos, I just found your channel today. I'm looking at the Neutrik NC3MXX-EMC Cable Connector male and female vs. the regular Neutrik NC3FXX connectors. I want to use the Quad mic cable to make my own cables, would it be a waste of $ if I use the EMC connecter or would it be ok to use the regular NC3 XX connectors when using Quad wire and what name brand Quad mic cable do your recommend? Thank you so much for your time Dave!
Could it be that more current causes more corrosion? I got this bass amp with a phone plug speaker connector and it's getting worse... but also in general phone plugs connections fail over time. Which is annoying since you often find them behind patch bays, so you'd stick your head into some rack, unplug all patch cords, try to spray-clean it all, and re-connect in the proper order. XLR or Speakon never caused me that much trouble. I actually learned about the galvanic corrosion from my girlfriend who once was about to become a goldsmith and those do know these things.
You might save yourself a whole lot of headaches by keeping a tube of electrical grease around. If you keep a light coat of the insulating grease on your connectors, it will prevent oxidation by preventing moisture and oxygen from causing the corrosion. I've got an old tube of Dow Corning electrical grease that always does the trick. There are also some contact enhancers that claim to work on a molecular level but not sure if its just expensive snake oil. I have applied it to a few things and it seems to work pretty well too as I haven't had any obvious failures where used. You would think that an insulating grease would be a bad thing for connectors but I have yet to experience a problem. Your thoughts?
Yes, grease helps but also causes its own issues by collecting dust and dirt in addition to adding time and maintenance. I know for us, we have several thousand XLR cables and keeping them greased cleaned and re greased would be a full time job in itself
@@DaveRat That leaves something like Stabilant 22. Its expensive. Maybe apply it to some cables and equipment connectors. Then mark them as being applied so you'll know if you have a problem in the field when its go time. The big problem is the constant set up and break down of the system. Stabilant would probably need to be re-applied periodically. I guess that's why you always carry spares.
Yeah, for XLR, we don't really have issues as we are all nickel and they hold up well. I mainly see the issue with guitar pedal setups that stay plugged in but are exposed to sweat from the musicians. Definitely have seen various sprays and such used. This video came out of a discussion as to whether SoundTools should offer 1/4" cat tails in gold or nickel. People tend to percieved gold as "better" yet most gear has nickel, so offering a dissimilar metal is actually worse, but we would probably sell more if we offered gold. So, we decided on what's best rather than what people perceive as best, and will run with nickel and I made the video to help inform.
@@DaveRat The gold plating is more like gold flash. More of an oxidation prevention while stocked by the vendor that wipes off with first use. Those crummy 1/4" jacks might be the best use case for a light coating of insulating grease since the connector is inside a foot pedal and there is decent wiping action.
Agreed on the gold but still not backing grease. Grease with even the slightest dust will crackle on a 1/4" if the dusty grease holds dirt between the wiper and connector. Too many issues. We see that issue with console faders where the grease on the sliders works its way down to the contact wipers and the fader is noisy until all grease removed. Sprays with any oils into faders guarantee they will go noisy and gritty in short order, requiring a complete disassembly and cleaning or replacing. I have had nothing but issues with oils and grease on contacts over the years
Soldering has issues as well. Crimping identical metals may be the best. But a good flux solder with some silver will do just fine for a 100 years of more in most situations
When I thought that I wanted to retire from my audio career, I moved to the Florida Keys. I took a job doing re-fits and installing Northern Lights diesel generators on yachts that were on the salty sea. HUGE, galvanic issues. Grounding points, even with similar metals, we were required to used TEF GELL on all termination points. In my electrical career, we were required to use NOALOX Aluminum to Copper connections and split bolts. Would TEF Gel be a good product to put on Molex connectors on our many 9001s (In different states of disassembly) we have in our warehouse?
Interesting idea and it should help or solve. Though testing to prove it would be a long wait. I am a bit familiar with accelerates corrosion tests where salt water is sprayed and let dry days on end. I will ponder testing.
Many of these compounds for preventing corrosion are highly subject to attracting contaminants such as dust where the connection is repeatedly made and taken apart in a touring environment. To prevent the surfaces becoming sludge pots of grime, found the best solution is to simply keep them clean, and take the time to clean them regularly. Many spray contact cleaners include a lube, which reacts with the environment over time and turns to a wax, thus interfering with a good contact. Ask anyone who has used this stuff in volume controls, faders, etc and this cure caused major problems later. Do not soak your console faders in WD-40 or other lubricating cleaner as the residue attracts dirt and dries to a wax over time. Edit. Many of the lubricating oils will react with moisture and become acidic and thus conductive and an electrolyte in the presence of dis similar metals making galvanic corrosion. Ask any tech that has tried to clean up old gear about the green scum in connectors.
Worth a try, the issue with gels and lubs in audio is the attraction of dust and the associated noise when dusty lube is involved with an audio connection That said, the molex once lubed most likely won't get dust or dirt I. The connection.
Hey Dave, thanks for the great video series. Would you suggest building cables witch two different connectors, if e.g. your console has gold contacts and the mic or amplifier has silver/nickel contacts?
If ya live near the ocean or somewhere that oxidation is a challenge, that would be wise. Or if you are intending to leave things connected for many years. If it is getting patched and unpatched, the connecter tend be ok
Ha! Not that I know of but since there are none out there, spending money on making sure you have a dissimilar metal to the norm is probably not the optimum plan. Speakons are interesting in that they "wipe" when connecting and it gives them a self cleaning attribute. Gold may not be ideal are the wipe action would seem to wear the gold away. In my opinion, gold connectors are mostly a marketing angle to get people to spend more money on something that has more disadvantages than advantages but looks pretty.
From what I understand, the dissimilar metals is the foundation of the issue and the moistures and salts in the air are what activates/accelerates the issue. Solder seals the joint so it keeps out the salts and moisture.
I have not. I personally am not a big fan of high Q enclosures. Whilst they do reproduce dynamics well, larger horns tend to follow the concept of make a loud box and then process to try to make it flat and smooth sounding. Where as non horn loaded or very short horns tend to naturally sound flatter and smoother and processing is used to make it louder. Struggle to get loud boxes to sound good vs struggle to get good sounding boxes to be loud Though with EDM or other non live music, the added transients of a horn loaded rig can bring extra life to the sound, with live bands where we typically have naturally too many dynamics, and we are using compression and limiters to tame things down, having a very dynamic loudspeaker tends to make things more challenging.
Infesting so if that’s the case and we have a cable should the cable itself be copper or gold yes I know gold cables would be 🤑 but from the boot of the connector onto the cable John it changes but as you say anymore than a home hifi once it’s connected not a problem unlike our tour gear that gets plugged in and out all week long. Amazing discovery you could have saved the company and L’acoustics and Clair Bros might have been the Behringers of live sound. Bless
It's important to keep things in perspective. Solder joints work well and are reliable. The nickel and gold work well and for optimizing, also matching is preferred. Tin tends to have issues over time and is not ideal for connectors that are plugged and unplugged. I live near the beach and even the nickel and gold connectors need maintenance when sitting for a while
@@DaveRat agreed Hervey Bay QLD Australia beach is 400m away from us and most of my jobs are obviously places along the esplanade or I’m on the beach doing weddings at Fraser Island (the biggest sand island in the world) so I’m doomed but it’s life we do what we do and it’s the price we pay for living in paradise. I go to extraordinary lengths to store my equipment and keep the humidity and sea air at bay where I can it’s my Hi-Fi and model railway and toy room that get climate controlled environments. All our cables are custom made Mogami with either proprietary mogami connectors otherwise neuitrik and I have been ridiculously happy if it’s good enough for the recording studio I figure it’s good enough for the other end. Gold to gold is a great way to go but as you know it’s beyond out control I have a colleague who is a master jeweler and hifi enthusiast has to build some crazy gold creations for other audiophiles some incredible stuff anyway enough of that keep up the awesome work you are the Stephen hawking of live sound 🙏🤘
Hmmm, timbre is a perception based opinion that sort of tries to side side step scientific and measurable proofs. That said, I would say it is easily probable should you decide to to test. Send the same signal down two nickle cables with one out of polarity and sum them for a null Then send the same signal down one Nicole and on on silver and sum for a null, Compare the difference of the nulls. Opinion removed, hear the difference. My theory is that the difference will be not audible. But would need to test. I don't have enough confidence their will be a difference to bother testing
Sorry ..dielectic grease on audio connections and what is your thought on fretting in connections in equipment maintenance the to go hand in hand ....thanks.....sorry for the split question
Putting a lube on connections can be helpful in the short to mid term. I have found that over time it often dries out and makes things worse. Also migration of grease due to hear makes a mess. But can be a fix.
I invested big money and time replacing molex connects in my MCI console and recorders many years ago. The invisible problem couldn’t be solved any other way.
or there's connective polymer what's the same conductivity as copper and you can coat your connectors in that you only need to mix silver 5% to stop it tarnishing
I did some looking around, but finding products and such with lower conductivity than copper for specialized applications. A conductive polymer with the conductivity of copper is quite appealing and would like to know more
@@DaveRat yes, best I suppose the manufacturers who make it should have the data sheet! I think it's quite hard wearing it seems to dry hard, I'm assuming it must be something to do with carbon bonds I've been having a read up on it and there's lots of different types of conductive polymers used in OLED displays solar panels etc of different variations of conductivity. You can buy a little bottle of conductive polymer from chord Electronics they suggest painting the terminals with three coats, maybe you could do an experiment get a metre long piece of non-conductive material and paint three coats and see what the resistances is What I can see with organic polymers the longer they left the better conductive is to oxidation where metals are the opposite
I think this is the problem with focusrites headphone ports. I’ve owned 3 with various different headphones and they always crap out on me. Recently a 2i2 I just bought last year is giving me trouble. Absolutely devastating when I’m not even beating them that bad.
Hey dave I have had problems with looms and stageboxs driving me mental. Channels just start going down. The looms are wired in sitchu and just stop working. I had a few different looms and even old looms that didn't work start working. People never belive me
Have you narrowed down the exact causes? Sounds like corroded multi connector pins or corroded XLR pins could be something to check. As connectors get old and oxidize they can work sometimes and not others but when tested not show any issue
Great video. If anyone can help me. I have some Neutrik XLR sockets that have become noisy. Is there some way to clean the internal contacts or is it best to replace them?
@@DaveRat actually no, I do however have clear memories of hanging and stacking that PA with your guys working as a stagehand. Coming from a Turbosound background I was always impressed with how much came out of those boxes , I’m interested in the sequence of how you solved the porting with all those components in such a small cavity package. 😀
For a pedal board, if your pedals themselves had different connectors, would it make sense to make interconnects with say gold on one end and nickel on the other?
To optimize, and if the pedals tend to stay plugged in, that would be a cool thing to do. If you plug and unplug and/or you are not ever really near salty / humid weather, I would not worry about it too much. That said, for critical applications and to absolutely minimize the possibility of issues, matching metals and regular cleaning is the way
In the Audio World, RCA, Binding Post , Banana Plugs (Cables) - The ones I buy all say their make of copper and gold plated (non-metal) But I have bought a bunch of them and find out they are not and some are just junk? Is their a way to set up a test fixture that I can test my connectors? and find out what their made of or similar metals? I can easy make one, Dave it would be nice to see what I bought. I just bought some RCA connectors when solder a wire to it & the solder flows and then it turns into cold right away like a puddle of mush, Also have Dayton Dat v2 any recommendation on using this software package? Thanks Again for the Video
As far as connectors, if you want ones that are quality and will last, I would say just stay away from cheap off-brand stuff. Buy Neutrik, Switchcraft or amphenol and you cant really go wrong. The connector should not create a cold joint, try a hotter iron and or different solder. Dont know the Dayton Dat software
EXACTLY what I was thinking. I had to re-pipe a whole bathroom once because a joint corroded and popped. That’s when I learned that you Don’t Mix Metals. As the guy at Home Depot barked at me. I still have ALL Copper everything in my plumbing tool kit. (And ABS rather than Cast Iron, but that’s another story.)
No, that will be fine. If you have gold and not gold connected for a long time and does not get disconnected, that will be more likely to corrode that gold with gold or nickel with nickel.
Lets talk about galvanic corrosion on sea-going boats, especially ones with an aluminium hull... Copper is verboten! Any work involving copper must be carried out in virtually clean room protocol. Any scrap of copper left behind touching the hull will start to eat it away... not a good look on a boat. Ohh, the circuit board connectors with square pins... I call them PCB headers.
i WAS WONDERING if I should spend much more money on gold plated connectors ..... and I viewed it as sacrifice for better tone. But I gather that my pedals don't have gold plated input jacks so it seems it would'nt be worth it at all! WOW! Thank you sooo much. So if I understood you correctly nickel is the way to go, ...right?
Since the only two real choices to buy moderns connectors are nickel and gold, and gold is more yellow. You pretty much are faced with matching color as the best and easiect way. There are some old brass connectors out there as well as silver and copper, but those both have corrosion issues. It does not matter too much whether you use nickel or gold but paying extra for gold has no real advantage except if the connectors on the unit are already gold and you intend on leaving the connectors plugged in for very long periods of time. #1 avoid dissimilar metals #2 avoid unnecessary expense
My understanding is that connectors that are referred to as chrome are actually nickel chromium alloys and are interchangeable and compatible with nickel. And many connectors that are referred to as nickel are also nickel chromium alloys.
But then again some manufacturers put in gold-plated sockets just because they think it's a selling point... having two types of plugs for every type of connection would be overkill.
Ha, well we all should know that dissimilar metals cause issues. Though not much need to memorize the exact numbers but giving wrong numbers is not ideal. Sometimes accuracy supersedes ego. In fact, not worried about the ego side of things, purely concerned with freely sharing helpful info. Hopefully you are doing the same and enjoying spending time assisting others with helpful info as well.
Some points that this video missed:
- Silver reacts with sulfur in the atmosphere to turn black. It doesn't oxidize under normal circumstances.
- Tin is very good for plating in connectors because it's soft so it molds to the microscopic imperfections so you have much more contact area. However it suffers from tin pest which means that at low temperatures (13.2 °C and below) it's atoms rearrange in a way that makes it non-conductive so it's not great for cold/winter outdoor conditions. Some people mistake this for oxidation.
- Metal conductivity doesn't matter in plating. The layer is much too thin to impact it. What is more important is corrosion and wear resistance
- Copper is a pain to work with. It doesn't plate well, doesn't stick well and oxidizes easily when passing current through it. It's good for it to be the meat of the wire and not the condom
- Nickel is arguably the best for repeated connection-disconnection. It's hard, resistant to corrosion, fairly conductive and easy to plate (no really, it will stick to most metal like your ex sticks to your bank account)
Thank you Victor!
Silver reacts with sulfur in the atmosphere, copper oxidizes. Solution, argon shielded connectors. I'm off to the patent office :)
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So no copper condoms, and my bank accounts will be ex proof. Got it.
Victor, everything you said is correct, except for "Metal conductivity doesn't matter in plating". Research has proven higher conductivity results in lower intermodulation distortion introduced by connectors: ieeexplore.ieee.org/ielaam/22/8681220/8632973-aam.pdf
I recently graduated from an aerospace background in university and I'm so surprised how many common topics show up between audio engineering and aircraft maintenance
Very cool and interesting to see topics fully vetted in one industry and all but ignored in another yet the scientific principles are consistent
@@DaveRat like I could see how stuff like resistance, impedance, data loss, encoding and stuff would appear in both industries but I’d never expect galvanic corrosion to pop up again but it makes so much sense.
Learning so much from your channel man, just applied to do my masters degree in audio recording/mixing to do a complete career change and your vids are helping so much!!!
Keep up the awesome work!
so me doing that job with 2 wireless mics the other day was rocket science? nice.
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So cool and thank you!
Thanks - topic I've wondered about for a long time.
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Hmm. I’ve been a Master Plumber for several years now and galvanic action is always a high concern. I’ve replaced many copper pipes that were corroded due to being strapped or supported with steel.
I had never thought about if or how it would apply to our bands live setup. Very interesting information to consider, as always. Thanks Mr Dave.
Can you tell a bit more about what you experienced with the pipes? According to the literature during galvanic corrosion the least noble metal gets corroded while the more noble metal gets protected. In this case the iron atoms should flow towards, and deposit on the copper. So why did you need to replace the pipes if they were in contact with steel?
@@victorunbea8451 I’ll try. Typically when I crawl under a house or get in the ceiling of a commercial building the leak is at a point of contact with a piece of galvanized steel strapping (which you’re not supposed to, but I digress). Several pinholes and the like that I’ve fixed in copper have been friction related and will wear from inside out but those are usually really old systems and utilize copper 2-hole straps and the walls have become very thin so it’s obviously friction, IMO. But the ones I’ve fixed that were strapped with iron always have the hole where the steel and copper contacted and wore from outside to in. Obviously, there have been a couple of times where it was a friction issue and the steel just rubs the copper long enough to degrade its integrity. But those are very rare cases, and most of the time you won’t pass an inspection in the first place if your pipes can wiggle at an anchor point. Not sure of what the reasons are (did physics in high school, no chemistry classes), but very rarely is it from friction, they just corrode rather than abrade. Might be one of those “it’s great in practice, but how is it in theory” type of situations where an unexpected result occurs. But again, my experience says that a few will abrade, but the vast majority just corrode up and start leaking eventually. My fuel gas code calls for dielectric unions at any contact of dissimilar metal, but it’s not really applicable to strapping water pipe unless you buy “rubber booted” anchors (not sure of the correct term, I just tell the parts house copper or rubber clamps, depending). And again, this is just my anecdotal experience from 11 or 12ish years in the industry. I’m by no means a technical expert, just an “I see what I see” type of thing. And there may be other mitigating factors I haven’t noticed or accounted for, but I like to feel I assess and diagnose most situations with some semblance of thoroughness. But in my opinion I’m a perpetual student, and no expert in any field, no matter how much “experience” I have. So again, it’s all speculation and personal anecdotal experience from me, and I would assume I should be taken with many grains of salt.
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@@damianthielemier6249 Very nicely explained. Thanks!
Wow, that was super helpful! I'm an audiophile and I recently changed cables and it's interesting to know why the sound changed a bit when I did do the cable swap. Now I'm on the lookout for cable terminators that's the same material as the terminals for my speaker and amp.
Interesting
I just thought of that.. I guess we should use the same material as the jacks on on the actual mixer, speaker and amps.. btw I haven’t watched the whole video yet
Though the probability that there is anything close to an audible sonic difference is improbable in the short term. The possibility that there will be issues in the long term is reduced when similar metals are used
Major respect. Every video I've seen so far is just amazing.
Thank you Adam!
As always, wonderful topic.
We have changed over to all gold connectors decades ago sind our first Amek Recall RN while it hat all gold connectors. And of course nowadays all the Midas DL251/155/151 stage boxes, audio interfaces and L’acoustic amps have gold connectors.
Wenn we did a few changeovers from nickel to gold mid Theater tour all technician had a feeling that there was more detail and that the high frequencies were more fase correct and not so harsh. Was not something we were able to measure but all technicians reprogrammed there desks and used way less eq afterwards.
This is the sort of thing I would need to test. If it's there it should be measurable, the question is how to measure it. I will ponder
Great stuff Dave. The years I lived on a sailboat in saltwater taught me a lot about galvanic corrosion and dissimilar metals. So cool to see that explained in a completely different realm with the enormous amounts of tiny audio connections we deal with! Thanks!
Yes! People with boating experience know so much more about this than audio humans. We need boaters designing connectors!
The boaters on the thread are well aware of this - many boats have sacrificial zinc anodes connected to other metallic parts that are below the waterline so that they “take one for the team.” Zinc is highly susceptible to galvanic corrosion, and that zinc chunk will deteriorate and save the other parts from the effects of galvanic corrosion.
Not to mention boaters dealing with problems with electronics & other metal things not specifically meant for maritime use. People with beach houses putting in outdoor speakers almost always find out the hard way that they need specialty components.
Peripherally audio-related: even stainless steel loudspeaker mounts/hardware can fail over time in high chlorine environments such as natatoriums. Chlorine stress corrosion cracking can affect metals, especially where they are not regularly cleaned with fresh water. Speakers are usually up away from being “washed” so the byproducts of chlorine mixed with impurities can sit and go to work. High molybdenum content stainless steel is much more resistant to this issue. There is “One” speaker manufacturer who has a natatorium series of speakers made for these environments.
Very cool and thank you! Interesting. Thank you Clay
Thanks Dave, very interesting and informative topic. I just built a bunch of cables for an amp switcher recently and have nickel neutrik connections. I didn't realize I was making a good decision there, but thankful luck prevailed. For future board builds, I'll be better prepared. :)
Cool cool Adam!
I have had so many pedal board failures from galvanic corrosion it's crazy. It's a huge problem here in Nova Scotia espesially in the one venue I used to spend at least 100 nights per year and I maintain their rigs in the building. That building is basicially touching the ocean and a few times per year floods during a storm surge and the doors are allways open and the salt air permiates everything. I have traveled with various grades of fine ScotchBrite sheets for many years to quickly clean 1/4" patch cables and jacks on the fly. A great product that I found keeps the corrosion from happening in those extreme conditions is DeOxit Shield S5, it doesnt have the cleaning properties of regular DeOxit D5 but has the continued corrsion protection over time. It was $30 Canadian for a can but the saved downtime was well worth it.
Interesting and thank you, that is useful info!
@@DaveRat I have had other equipment fail from that problem as well... Even electrical panels! Stan Rogers folk festival is right on the the ocean and one of the AC panels is on a power pole for one of the tents. We actually had to stop a show and disassemble the panel and clean all of the breaker contacts with files, scotch brite and contact cleaner to restore proper power. It is amazing how a tiny amount of corrosion will send the resistance skyrocketing. I used to have to Deoxit in ear packs while they were in use quite often as well. The band members would give me a signal and I would blast on stage, pull the 1/8" out of the pack, spray in the 1/8" scrub the plug quick and jam it back in while they were still playing.
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Next up on Audio Science Review: "Does Gold Make a Difference?" Accompanied by demonstrations like wrapping a power chord (unplugged) around the connector, and hand waving over distortion plots.
Thanks Dave for real world experience.
Thank you Joshua!
Learned several things in this episode. Many thanks for producing these. Very good info! More/Better info = more tools in the bag for problem solving! Good stuff!
Thank you Lee!
@@DaveRat btw...I LOVE the SuperCat cable!!! I have 5 or 6 of them in various sizes and going to buy some more. Best cable around hands down! thanks for a great product....Love my XLR sniffer too!
So cool, thank you Lee! And appreciate you taking the time to comment!
Mind blown. I’ve got a cheap speaker from Thomann that’s only been turning on from a 1 foot drop sometimes. Thought it was magic. Thanks for clearing that up. You the best
Was treating it like “slap the television to get the picture back”
Hope that sorts it Tim!
very interesting (somewhat) unpopular view on things .... an audiophile myself and i always thought its best to have the same kind of plating troughout the system... no need to introduce more variables unless you use it to actively color your system, "galvanic isolation" was a new one for me thanks! :)
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Wow, what a wake up call. Also, a great video to refer the ED to when he see's me kicking the stage rack.
Yes! Kick!
Hi Dave and thanks for your always sensible discussions. As a repairs tech I have encountered this contacts issue countless times and reliable long term remedy ime is 'working' such contacts in conjunction with contact cleaner/lubricant that leaves film of oil that isolates the contacts from air exposure and renewed corrosion. Behringer connectors suffer tin plated contact oxidation issue and is their reliability downfall and cause of bad reputation for otherwise generally great products. Once such contacts/connectors are 'treated' they perform long term as they should ime, ditto for plenty of other makes/models. Out gassing from materials like chipboard and mdf also contribute markedly to contact corrosion issue. Interestingly glycol based fog juice protects connectors, disco/club amps pretty much never fail/act up due to contact issues. PS. I am loving the way you are using the chapter indexes like I suggested to you 👍👍👍.
Thank you Eric and yes the chapter index thing is great!!
@@DaveRat 👍. I am out in the backyard gardening and listening on a BT speaker to a bunch of your interviews and discussions that I hadn't heard, interesting and great stuff !. Sometime I will get in touch a send you samples of a paradigm shifting dielectric tech (cables etc) that changes everything re live and recorded audio.....clearer and cleaner and more real sound works on any system.
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That's awesome bit of info, good delivery and examples. Only wish you covered soldering part on different metals as it were.
thank you!
Solder works well as it has tin which is fairly neutral and it forms an air tight bond, and even with dissimilar metals, if the connection is isolated from moisture and salts, the connection will last a long time with minimal issues
Real good video! I've definitely had this problem with cheap 1/4 jacks. It's almost worth replacing the whole jack than scraping them down and worrying about it crackling again.
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Great video Dave.
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I've been very interested by this subject for a long time and came across another aspect that I think is also important, that is the conductivity of the metal's oxyde which it will develop eventually. And I remember reading that silver oxyde is almost as good a conductor as silver itself where gold oxyde (even if little of it might appear) is not only a bad conductor, it would be a SEMIconductor, you know, as in chips ans so on... Imagine your signal thru that... Anyway, great shared knowledge Dave, success to you all...
Thank you Emerson!
I'm old a jaded and often thing I don't have new things to learn, but I didn't think about galvanic corrosion! That makes a ton of sense. To an extreme (which won't happen for most/all low voltage audio) were the galvanic corrosion issues around aluminum and copper connected wires for home electric!
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Great video Dave! Very interesting. THANKS!
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Thanks for the video Dave! It's always interesting to hear about these quite specific audio tech tips👌
Thank you!
Yeh this is an ongoing issue, something that should be well know but isn't.
One of my early desks ( back in the 80's) had gold plated sockets for the mother board/loom and plain tinned fingers on the channel boards ...... by tinned I mean lead/tin solder ....... realy bad for dissimlar metals/galvanic corrosion ... i had to go thru that desk and clean and re-tin the edge connectors on every channel a couple of times ...... I ended up using contact cleaner/lubricant in an attempt to keep the air out and minimize the corrosion.
seen many other situations similar ....... I have seen many bits of audio gear where there are edge connectors go straight onto PCB tracks have caused problems ....... It has been common with some equipment to abandon the sockets and direct solder as a replacement of the sockets.
Even when I was young I had two pet hates with guitar players .... cheap gold plated jack plugs and curly guitar cords ........ virtually none of the guitar amps, pedals or DI's have gold plated sockets .... so cheap gold guitar plugs where a guaranteed problem, the gold plate did not last long..
Agreed on all
Unrelated to audio, but another major manufacturer that should have known better... Ford. The fuel pump driver module on the 2004+ F-150's has an aluminum housing and sits on a steel frame cross-member above the rear axle, exposed to the great salt bath that happens on our roads every winter. They all eventually fail, often without warning and leaving the truck dead. The revised part includes rubber bushings to keep the aluminum housing about 1/2" off the steel cross-member.
Thanks for the info... I've known about this for years, but never considered it with audio connectors!
fascinating! and so interesting. The complexities of the nuances of products being manufactured is truly amazing and the slightest obscure mistake can have huge ripple effects.
I know of more than one audio manufacturer that has made reliable products that work great until put into a shipping container and the ocean crossing destroys the connectors and circuit boards.
haha best real world experience I ever heard. Thank you Dave
Thank you Franco!
Incredible info! Love the amp story
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Dave Rat...the reaal deal. Have one of the rat sound xlr cable testers. Love the little thing. Only cable tester the fits in a pocket.
Awesome! So cool and thank you!
YOu should've included Brass !! Also the effect's of magnetic metals on signal flow !! Great video , highly informative , not the first time I've heard of or seen this issue !!
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You are such a great teacher and I love what you do ❤️
Thank you and honored!
I think you solved my guitar pedal board issues... Thanks...
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Fascinating. Thanks Dave!
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Excellent info and presentation!
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I have had RAM module failures (SODIMM, DIMM, and ECC-DIMM) due to galvanic corrosion. You can buy time with contact cleaner.
Exactly
thank u.. its very honest. it can stop gold plated jack production 😁
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I like your observation about connectors inside power amplifiers etc. I see this happen with the internal connectors with a range of pro audio items where the plating on the male and female connectors look similar (old Molex for example) but you have got me thinking that the choice of metals between male and female parts might be slightly different.
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So, if I'm understanding correctly... you should solder gold or nickel connectors onto your cables to match the gear they are plugged into. The copper in the cable going to the connector won't create galvanic corrosion itself. Or at least, that can't be controlled.
It's more complicated than that but you can sum it up like this:
In galvanic corrosion the more noble (positive potential) element will always attract the least noble one. This means that if you solder gold/nickel to copper then the tin (or tin-lead) in the solder will be the one to corrode leading to weakened connections that can break. Lookup a galvanic potential chart. Generally speaking, metals that are neighbors in the chart don't react with one another.
However, consider the flow of electricity in the wire. The galvanic potential is no more than 2-3 volts. If you feed 5V to a connector hooked up to the negative wire then it can be made of iron for all it cares, it will corrode even gold or platinum. This is called cathodic protection.
So... the weakest link in all of this is the solder connection inside the connector shell and not as much the external pin metal would you say?
@@Videditor1067 I'm saying that the metal with the lowest galvanic potential is the one to corrode when no electricity is passed through it.
Out of gold, copper and tin, it's tin that's the least noble.
However, copper and tin also passivate (form a dense oxide layer that acts like a protective coating) so it's only a problem in very humid or marine environments. The key thing to remember with GC is that it's a problem only when moisture is involved
Solder is good as it seals the connection from outside influences that accelerate the or cause the issues. I don't think it stops the issues but slows them down to very very long time frames that exceed the lifespan of the gear or humans in most cases
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This video was great, I wanna see more from you like this, the small details like this do matter very much
Thank you Jeremy!
awesome information, thank you Dave!
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What do you think about using Dielectric Grease on Permanent Install or Pedal Boards and Racks? I haven't heard of anyone in the audio world using it on connections, I figured it could be a good use to prevent corrosion like used on automotive batteries.
It's kind of a mixed bag. Dialectic grease winner connection is clamped with a screw clamp, is all good. But for a connection that can be removed it can tend to build up dust and dirt and then if it is plugged and unplugged at any point that dust and dirt can wedge itself into the contacts and make things worse. But if it's never unplugged and sealed from Dustin dirt it could provide a protection barrier from moisture and corrosion.
Thank you very much Dave
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Amazing! So many things to consider.
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In computers there is also another phenomenon called electro-migration. (this one irreversible) But galvanic oxydation occurs too. Different topic : old computers sometimes respond well to spending an hour in an oven like 160 to 180°C worked once for me. => that seem to re-settle the soldering points, or possibly cleans some joints. I did a motherboard, with memory and graphics card, all together. the thing still works 2 years after oven.
Super interesting!
Future episode idea: Adventures in contact cleaning. Have you ever used contact cleaner on cables and jacks, only to find the contact cleaner destroys plastics in connectors, rendering them so brittle that they crumble? You can use contact cleaner on some electronics devices, cables, and components, and NOT on others.
Certain CAT5 jacks for example, crumble, when contact cleaner (meant to be cleaning their pins) touches the plastic in the jack.
Oooh interesting. Yes, I've done the crumble! I will ponder a dive I to that.
Kontakt 60 spray cleaner is quite OK for switches and plugs, but it may eat the coal layers in pots and faders. I use it a lot, no crumbled plastics so far.
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We always had really good results with DeoxIT Gold. Been using it for over 15years.
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Cool. Now I need to make changes on some modular headphone cables that I plan on building.
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I used to fight all the time with Molex connectors on power supply connections to computer equipment on industrial machines. The only sure way I found to fix the connection issues is to cut off the Molex plug and solder the wires directly on the pins. What do you think about products from Caig Laboratories like Deoxit? Channel Master used to make a spray for the silver contacts in the old mechanical tuners in television sets to protect the silver from oxidizing.
Deoxit is all good. Yes, cut and solder for great fix!
Wow. I’ve had problems with my crest amps. Intermittent. Sent in for service and they coulda’t find a problem. Hmmm. I think I’ll open them up and reseat the internals.
Cool, hope it works!! This issue was on 7001, 4801, 4601, 8001 series
The pandemic may be showing the shortcomings of metal/metal connector contact in the pro audio world. A mixer rental house I know of is going through all their desks right now, many of them nearly brand new, because they've been crashing on boot after sitting for a year unused. Makes me wonder if those desks have mixed metal connector junctions. My own Avid desk started suffering this issue as well. Hard to figure out the exact failure point as it's intermittent and only happens when it's booted cold. After it warms up, it never crashes. Going through and reseating all cables will make it stable for a year or 2. Then it's back. Fun times!
How do the consoles know? Does turning them on and off stabilize them? Does being moved around make them more reliable? What about studios where the console doesn't move.
What is it that would cause a console to know the difference between being off for a day or a year or less likely to work after off for a year vs turned on everyday?
Is there really a diference or is it just a perceived illusion when normally we find all the same faults that occur over a year, during the year and after a year of sitting we actually do d less faults overall but find them in a short time, giving the illusion that sitting dead creates more issues than working constantly?
@@DaveRat I submit the heating/cooling cycle might "work" the connections enough mechanically to keep the oxidation down from expansion/contraction of the mating surfaces. It's an interesting conundrum.
I like that theory. Makes me think maybe turning it on and the heat may burn off moisture and reduce oxidization
These are the things I really enjoy where as you dig deeper, simple logic fails to hidden complexities.
Idea.....what about using some Di-electric grease on all of your connections?
Messy and attracts dirt. "Wet" connections create more issues. Ideally well matched dry metals that are not oxidized work just fine
@@DaveRat I love your videos, I just found your channel today. I'm looking at the Neutrik NC3MXX-EMC Cable Connector male and female vs. the regular Neutrik NC3FXX connectors. I want to use the Quad mic cable to make my own cables, would it be a waste of $ if I use the EMC connecter or would it be ok to use the regular NC3 XX connectors when using Quad wire and what name brand Quad mic cable do your recommend? Thank you so much for your time Dave!
Are you in a very high RF environment or using extremely low level signals? If so, the emc may help. Otherwise, spend the money elsewhere.
Definitely interesting!
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Great stuff! Thank you!
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Could it be that more current causes more corrosion? I got this bass amp with a phone plug speaker connector and it's getting worse... but also in general phone plugs connections fail over time. Which is annoying since you often find them behind patch bays, so you'd stick your head into some rack, unplug all patch cords, try to spray-clean it all, and re-connect in the proper order. XLR or Speakon never caused me that much trouble.
I actually learned about the galvanic corrosion from my girlfriend who once was about to become a goldsmith and those do know these things.
Yes, I believe current has an impact
Great.
thanks for that, Dave!
Cheers from Berlin
Thank you Curtis!
I just bought some gold plated connectors
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@@DaveRat i just returned them after i kept listning about the galvnize corrision and decided to match metals
That is awesome and the best way
You might save yourself a whole lot of headaches by keeping a tube of electrical grease around. If you keep a light coat of the insulating grease on your connectors, it will prevent oxidation by preventing moisture and oxygen from causing the corrosion. I've got an old tube of Dow Corning electrical grease that always does the trick. There are also some contact enhancers that claim to work on a molecular level but not sure if its just expensive snake oil. I have applied it to a few things and it seems to work pretty well too as I haven't had any obvious failures where used. You would think that an insulating grease would be a bad thing for connectors but I have yet to experience a problem. Your thoughts?
Yes, grease helps but also causes its own issues by collecting dust and dirt in addition to adding time and maintenance. I know for us, we have several thousand XLR cables and keeping them greased cleaned and re greased would be a full time job in itself
@@DaveRat That leaves something like Stabilant 22. Its expensive. Maybe apply it to some cables and equipment connectors. Then mark them as being applied so you'll know if you have a problem in the field when its go time. The big problem is the constant set up and break down of the system. Stabilant would probably need to be re-applied periodically. I guess that's why you always carry spares.
Yeah, for XLR, we don't really have issues as we are all nickel and they hold up well. I mainly see the issue with guitar pedal setups that stay plugged in but are exposed to sweat from the musicians. Definitely have seen various sprays and such used.
This video came out of a discussion as to whether SoundTools should offer 1/4" cat tails in gold or nickel.
People tend to percieved gold as "better" yet most gear has nickel, so offering a dissimilar metal is actually worse, but we would probably sell more if we offered gold.
So, we decided on what's best rather than what people perceive as best, and will run with nickel and I made the video to help inform.
@@DaveRat The gold plating is more like gold flash. More of an oxidation prevention while stocked by the vendor that wipes off with first use. Those crummy 1/4" jacks might be the best use case for a light coating of insulating grease since the connector is inside a foot pedal and there is decent wiping action.
Agreed on the gold but still not backing grease. Grease with even the slightest dust will crackle on a 1/4" if the dusty grease holds dirt between the wiper and connector.
Too many issues. We see that issue with console faders where the grease on the sliders works its way down to the contact wipers and the fader is noisy until all grease removed.
Sprays with any oils into faders guarantee they will go noisy and gritty in short order, requiring a complete disassembly and cleaning or replacing.
I have had nothing but issues with oils and grease on contacts over the years
Your videos rock. Thanks.
Thank you Steve!
Great video! Thank you
Thank you!
Take out All the connectors and solder everything point-to-point?
Wait, what solder should I use?
Soldering has issues as well. Crimping identical metals may be the best. But a good flux solder with some silver will do just fine for a 100 years of more in most situations
When I thought that I wanted to retire from my audio career, I moved to the Florida Keys. I took a job doing re-fits and installing Northern Lights diesel generators on yachts that were on the salty sea. HUGE, galvanic issues. Grounding points, even with similar metals, we were required to used TEF GELL on all termination points. In my electrical career, we were required to use NOALOX Aluminum to Copper connections and split bolts. Would TEF Gel be a good product to put on Molex connectors on our many 9001s (In different states of disassembly) we have in our warehouse?
Interesting idea and it should help or solve. Though testing to prove it would be a long wait.
I am a bit familiar with accelerates corrosion tests where salt water is sprayed and let dry days on end.
I will ponder testing.
Many of these compounds for preventing corrosion are highly subject to attracting contaminants such as dust where the connection is repeatedly made and taken apart in a touring environment. To prevent the surfaces becoming sludge pots of grime, found the best solution is to simply keep them clean, and take the time to clean them regularly. Many spray contact cleaners include a lube, which reacts with the environment over time and turns to a wax, thus interfering with a good contact. Ask anyone who has used this stuff in volume controls, faders, etc and this cure caused major problems later. Do not soak your console faders in WD-40 or other lubricating cleaner as the residue attracts dirt and dries to a wax over time. Edit. Many of the lubricating oils will react with moisture and become acidic and thus conductive and an electrolyte in the presence of dis similar metals making galvanic corrosion. Ask any tech that has tried to clean up old gear about the green scum in connectors.
Worth a try, the issue with gels and lubs in audio is the attraction of dust and the associated noise when dusty lube is involved with an audio connection
That said, the molex once lubed most likely won't get dust or dirt I. The connection.
Hey Dave, thanks for the great video series.
Would you suggest building cables witch two different connectors, if e.g. your console has gold contacts and the mic or amplifier has silver/nickel contacts?
If ya live near the ocean or somewhere that oxidation is a challenge, that would be wise. Or if you are intending to leave things connected for many years.
If it is getting patched and unpatched, the connecter tend be ok
OK what about gold speakon. Is it available
Ha! Not that I know of but since there are none out there, spending money on making sure you have a dissimilar metal to the norm is probably not the optimum plan. Speakons are interesting in that they "wipe" when connecting and it gives them a self cleaning attribute. Gold may not be ideal are the wipe action would seem to wear the gold away.
In my opinion, gold connectors are mostly a marketing angle to get people to spend more money on something that has more disadvantages than advantages but looks pretty.
@@DaveRat that's so amazing you have time to reply to me , means more than anything .
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Fascinating! So what about solder joints? Does being an alloy help prevent galvanic corrosion?
From what I understand, the dissimilar metals is the foundation of the issue and the moistures and salts in the air are what activates/accelerates the issue. Solder seals the joint so it keeps out the salts and moisture.
Dave, you have any experience setting up a Danley rig yet? I'm intrigued by their re-think of horns and what I've heard impressed me.
I have not. I personally am not a big fan of high Q enclosures. Whilst they do reproduce dynamics well, larger horns tend to follow the concept of make a loud box and then process to try to make it flat and smooth sounding. Where as non horn loaded or very short horns tend to naturally sound flatter and smoother and processing is used to make it louder.
Struggle to get loud boxes to sound good vs struggle to get good sounding boxes to be loud
Though with EDM or other non live music, the added transients of a horn loaded rig can bring extra life to the sound, with live bands where we typically have naturally too many dynamics, and we are using compression and limiters to tame things down, having a very dynamic loudspeaker tends to make things more challenging.
Question...Makes sense....Do you know if someone makes a small round brush that you can use to clean out the XLR connectors?
Hmmm, I do not but a pipe cleaner dipped in R5 deoxit would work
Infesting so if that’s the case and we have a cable should the cable itself be copper or gold yes I know gold cables would be 🤑 but from the boot of the connector onto the cable John it changes but as you say anymore than a home hifi once it’s connected not a problem unlike our tour gear that gets plugged in and out all week long. Amazing discovery you could have saved the company and L’acoustics and Clair Bros might have been the Behringers of live sound. Bless
It's important to keep things in perspective. Solder joints work well and are reliable. The nickel and gold work well and for optimizing, also matching is preferred. Tin tends to have issues over time and is not ideal for connectors that are plugged and unplugged.
I live near the beach and even the nickel and gold connectors need maintenance when sitting for a while
@@DaveRat agreed Hervey Bay QLD Australia beach is 400m away from us and most of my jobs are obviously places along the esplanade or I’m on the beach doing weddings at Fraser Island (the biggest sand island in the world) so I’m doomed but it’s life we do what we do and it’s the price we pay for living in paradise. I go to extraordinary lengths to store my equipment and keep the humidity and sea air at bay where I can it’s my Hi-Fi and model railway and toy room that get climate controlled environments.
All our cables are custom made Mogami with either proprietary mogami connectors otherwise neuitrik and I have been ridiculously happy if it’s good enough for the recording studio I figure it’s good enough for the other end. Gold to gold is a great way to go but as you know it’s beyond out control I have a colleague who is a master jeweler and hifi enthusiast has to build some crazy gold creations for other audiophiles some incredible stuff anyway enough of that keep up the awesome work you are the Stephen hawking of live sound 🙏🤘
Awesome and thank you Jose!
Intersting topic. Thanks for sharing
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what about silver vs nickel. connectors shouldn't effect timbre at all, right?
Hmmm, timbre is a perception based opinion that sort of tries to side side step scientific and measurable proofs.
That said, I would say it is easily probable should you decide to to test.
Send the same signal down two nickle cables with one out of polarity and sum them for a null
Then send the same signal down one Nicole and on on silver and sum for a null,
Compare the difference of the nulls.
Opinion removed, hear the difference.
My theory is that the difference will be not audible.
But would need to test. I don't have enough confidence their will be a difference to bother testing
Sorry ..dielectic grease on audio connections and what is your thought on fretting in connections in equipment maintenance the to go hand in hand ....thanks.....sorry for the split question
Putting a lube on connections can be helpful in the short to mid term. I have found that over time it often dries out and makes things worse. Also migration of grease due to hear makes a mess. But can be a fix.
I invested big money and time replacing molex connects in my MCI console and recorders many years ago. The invisible problem couldn’t be solved any other way.
Yeah, a pain and yes.
Great video. 🙂👍❤
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or there's connective polymer what's the same conductivity as copper and you can coat your connectors in that
you only need to mix silver 5% to stop it tarnishing
Do you have a link to more info? I have not seen a polymer with copper's conductivity. Very interesting.
@@DaveRat some articles on chord Electronics website I think Wikipedia as well if you just Google conductive polymer
I did some looking around, but finding products and such with lower conductivity than copper for specialized applications.
A conductive polymer with the conductivity of copper is quite appealing and would like to know more
@@DaveRat yes, best I suppose the manufacturers who make it should have the data sheet! I think it's quite hard wearing it seems to dry hard, I'm assuming it must be something to do with carbon bonds
I've been having a read up on it and there's lots of different types of conductive polymers used in OLED displays solar panels etc of different variations of conductivity.
You can buy a little bottle of conductive polymer from chord Electronics they suggest painting the terminals with three coats, maybe you could do an experiment get a metre long piece of non-conductive material and paint three coats and see what the resistances is
What I can see with organic polymers the longer they left the better conductive is to oxidation where metals are the opposite
Interesting, i will ponder pro audio applications
I think this is the problem with focusrites headphone ports. I’ve owned 3 with various different headphones and they always crap out on me. Recently a 2i2 I just bought last year is giving me trouble. Absolutely devastating when I’m not even beating them that bad.
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Hey dave I have had problems with looms and stageboxs driving me mental. Channels just start going down. The looms are wired in sitchu and just stop working. I had a few different looms and even old looms that didn't work start working. People never belive me
Have you narrowed down the exact causes? Sounds like corroded multi connector pins or corroded XLR pins could be something to check.
As connectors get old and oxidize they can work sometimes and not others but when tested not show any issue
Great video. If anyone can help me. I have some Neutrik XLR sockets that have become noisy. Is there some way to clean the internal contacts or is it best to replace them?
spray with De Oxit D5 and plug and unplug several times will usually do it
@@DaveRat Thanks Dave, much appreciated.
Hey Dave do a video on the evolution of the Rat Trap! 😀
Oooh, I am guessing you have seen the web pages on that already?
@@DaveRat actually no, I do however have clear memories of hanging and stacking that PA with your guys working as a stagehand. Coming from a Turbosound background I was always impressed with how much came out of those boxes , I’m interested in the sequence of how you solved the porting with all those components in such a small cavity package. 😀
Ha! Very cool! Here is some info. I figured you saw it as you knew it by name!
ratsound.com/evolution/evol1.html
For a pedal board, if your pedals themselves had different connectors, would it make sense to make interconnects with say gold on one end and nickel on the other?
To optimize, and if the pedals tend to stay plugged in, that would be a cool thing to do. If you plug and unplug and/or you are not ever really near salty / humid weather, I would not worry about it too much.
That said, for critical applications and to absolutely minimize the possibility of issues, matching metals and regular cleaning is the way
Oooh... If I forget my intuition... There's Dave!... A little bit of science goes a long way, if you misplace your magic.
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It seems nobody talks about brass anymore. I remember it being warm sounding and less noisy than other stuff, but I wasn't so smart when I was young.
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Thank you awesome
Thank you Connie!!
In the Audio World, RCA, Binding Post , Banana Plugs (Cables) - The ones I buy all say their make of copper and gold plated (non-metal) But I have bought a bunch of them and find out they are not and some are just junk? Is their a way to set up a test fixture that I can test my connectors? and find out what their made of or similar metals? I can easy make one, Dave it would be nice to see what I bought. I just bought some RCA connectors when solder a wire to it & the solder flows and then it turns into cold right away like a puddle of mush, Also have Dayton Dat v2 any recommendation on using this software package? Thanks Again for the Video
As far as connectors, if you want ones that are quality and will last, I would say just stay away from cheap off-brand stuff. Buy Neutrik, Switchcraft or amphenol and you cant really go wrong. The connector should not create a cold joint, try a hotter iron and or different solder. Dont know the Dayton Dat software
Cool story!
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Interesting, it's even more pronounced in plumbing : zinc, copper, iron ...
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EXACTLY what I was thinking. I had to re-pipe a whole bathroom once because a joint corroded and popped. That’s when I learned that you Don’t Mix Metals. As the guy at Home Depot barked at me. I still have ALL Copper everything in my plumbing tool kit. (And ABS rather than Cast Iron, but that’s another story.)
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It mean when i had cable with gold connector but my microphone had silver it will cause the corode?
No, that will be fine. If you have gold and not gold connected for a long time and does not get disconnected, that will be more likely to corrode that gold with gold or nickel with nickel.
Thank you sir
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you are a well of knowledge
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Yukon Cornelius like them both.. lol
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Hi dave what is your thoughts on using a
a ........ ?
Professor Rat preaches again !
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Lets talk about galvanic corrosion on sea-going boats, especially ones with an aluminium hull...
Copper is verboten! Any work involving copper must be carried out in virtually clean room protocol. Any scrap of copper left behind touching the hull will start to eat it away... not a good look on a boat.
Ohh, the circuit board connectors with square pins... I call them PCB headers.
Interesting stuff!
Best
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i WAS WONDERING if I should spend much more money on gold plated connectors ..... and I viewed it as sacrifice for better tone. But I gather that my pedals don't have gold plated input jacks so it seems it would'nt be worth it at all! WOW! Thank you sooo much. So if I understood you correctly nickel is the way to go, ...right?
Matched is the way to go. But yes, gold is rarely an advantage, it's just showy and people pay more for showy
@@DaveRat Thanks for the quick responce. So ... nickel IS what guitar pedal input Jacks use right? Do you know?
Yes, nearly all do, you can tell by the color.
@@DaveRat You said it yourself, I think: That color isn't necessarily nickel.
Since the only two real choices to buy moderns connectors are nickel and gold, and gold is more yellow. You pretty much are faced with matching color as the best and easiect way.
There are some old brass connectors out there as well as silver and copper, but those both have corrosion issues.
It does not matter too much whether you use nickel or gold but paying extra for gold has no real advantage except if the connectors on the unit are already gold and you intend on leaving the connectors plugged in for very long periods of time.
#1 avoid dissimilar metals
#2 avoid unnecessary expense
BUT AREN'T A LOT OF CHEAP CONNECTORS/JACKS CHROME?
My understanding is that connectors that are referred to as chrome are actually nickel chromium alloys and are interchangeable and compatible with nickel. And many connectors that are referred to as nickel are also nickel chromium alloys.
@@DaveRat Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed your video, will watch more. I like that you do all levels of sound systems, not just the big bands...
Thank you Henry!
Well, now I can finally justify an environmental chamber/cell to the wife.
Thanks!
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In other words, stay on course: go with nickel as usual.
Yes!
But then again some manufacturers put in gold-plated sockets just because they think it's a selling point... having two types of plugs for every type of connection would be overkill.
Hello, how are you man. I hope you are fine. How dear Saamy. My greetings to her. Thank you
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You look exactly like michael bolton!
Usually I get the look like Spicoli
Nope. Cash money only, baby. Sorry, the gold and silver traders always cut me close to 10%. Bastards.
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An audio engineer of your reputation. Is reading notes . On something you should know inside and out. Smh
Ha, well we all should know that dissimilar metals cause issues. Though not much need to memorize the exact numbers but giving wrong numbers is not ideal. Sometimes accuracy supersedes ego. In fact, not worried about the ego side of things, purely concerned with freely sharing helpful info. Hopefully you are doing the same and enjoying spending time assisting others with helpful info as well.