Thank you...I have been preaching this for years....guys should look at buying a used antenna tuner at a hamfest, and dedicate it to the ground system...73 de VE6PG...
Thank you kindly I will do this with my tuner. IM staying on a 3rd floor apartment and IM getting missive amounts of noise. The best explanation ever good job. By the way I did it right after watching this video and It works amazing. But I'm not grounding the wires to anything is simply a counterpoise ground 1/4 wavelength long for each band. Thanks 73 NP4M
I am about to install a 33 ft aluminum pole with a unun and a steel roof as the grounding side and am planning to use the MFJ unit because of being on a second floor. This video explains why and how it should work. I do plan to have a few counterpoise wires for each band going out the window on the roof and hope to tune the system with both ATU and the ground tuner. I think this video helps make sense of my plan. sadly had I knew how another older atu I have might could have been converted to, and been heaver and saved the MFJ price. Thanks for the insight !!!
I think one wire is enough with mfj931, why do you need multiple wires for multiple bands if you going to adjust the Capacitance and inductance on mfj931 for each band
@@Mark300win Several lengths were so I could experiment with the best length for each band, yes needing many all the time permanently is not necessary.
There's a BIG problem here : a End Fed Half Wave with a 9:1 UN UN isn't a End Fed Half Wave at all. This is the first and common error that alot of persons "hit" . It's just a "some lenght" of wire . A End Fed HALF Wave need a 49:1 transformer wich is totally different than a Bal-Un or a Un-Un . An HWEF offer something like 2000+ up Ohm (it vary because the diff "floor/ground") impedance so it doesn't need any radial/counterpoise ( it use the coax shield ) .
I agree with the coax counterpoise but it will perform even better if you add .05 wavelength counterpoise. This will also help dissipate some common mode RF. And on his defense not everyone knows the difference between end feed antennas and random lengths antennas. People just simply purchase the because of the description given from the sellers. Marketing techniques. Trust me I’m guilty of it . I didn’t know the difference either.
I use a 30ft “random” wire with a 9:1 UnUn. 17ft from the feedpoint I have inserted a RF isolator/choke. By doing this I have provided a counterpoise, but because of the isolator in line I have no common mode current and nasty RF back at the operating position. I have effectively created an off centre fed multiband “dipole” to use between 40m and 10m.
Good details. I'm not sure about the output from the artificial ground such as the mfj-931. I'm hearing it goes to ground, but do not understand that if the 931 is the ground.
I think you mix up two things. A HWEF (Half Wave End Fed) needs almost no counterpoise and no grounding. An 1:9 endfend antenna needs a very good ground and a choke to keep RF out our your rig. So an artificial ground may be useful for an 1:9 endfed antenna system to setup your ground system as good as possible. For a real HWEF, you need about 0.05 Lambda of counterpoise and this can be done e.g. by a choke somewhere within you coax feed line.
Just started to write the same thing. There are several misconceptions in the video: 1. That first example of EFHW was without unun? Every EFHW build nowadays contains 49:1 or 64:1 unun to make the impedance of EFHW as close to 50 ohm as possible 2. Because of that, EFHW usually doesn't need an antenna tuner at all, or, in some situations, internal ATU of the radio is good enough to compensate for some local problems. 3. Even EFHW should have a counterpoise to prevent CMC. Sometimes, without counterpoise used, the coax shield is used as a counterpoise, but that means CMC and in that case, at least ferites or CMC choke (near the antenna, preferably) can solve the problem. Counterpoise length can be fine-tuned, but 0.05 wavelength of lowest band should be a good compromise. 4. Long wire/random wire is of course end fed, but the impedance and the behaviour is different. It is roughly matched by 9:1 transformer to the value which should be then more easily matched to 50 ohm by the tuner - the impedance still can be out of the range of internal tuners. 5. Long wire/random wire (however, the length is not that "random") antennas are noisy. Especially in the town or other densely inhabited area full of RFI. They also aren't that efficient (but on the other side it can be the only manageable solution to get 160 m band working). 6. The difference from EFHW is the CMC is much worse, too. And now we have real problem with grounding or CMC... I would say even the basic description of possible countermeasures are a bit long for youtube comment :D I am always surprised all end fed antennas have those counterpoise/grounding terminals but almost nobody use them :D
This is a tuned ground. I do this for my counterpoise so I can tune the 'ground' on any band. Noise definitely drops. WHy? Cause the noise is TUNED OUT (wide band noise is reduced by the TUNED circuit (has a narrow bandwidth),
I've purchased a MFJ 931 to achieve that, installed it just like explained to my earth rod that is 65 feet away from my rig. but no reduction or noise or RX improvement... not sure why. @HamNoob any idea?
Just found your video....very good! I have a second story shack, as described, with a heavy wire down to an 8' rod (utility grounding system from hardware store). My endfed would run from house peak through trees. My concern is lightning protection. Any thoughts for protecting a second story shack using an endfed like your example? Thanks for your help, please.
There is a much better, much cheaper solution involving a bit of RG-8, and a simple ceramic capacitor. RF Suppressor Ground System. Installation of the RF suppressor - Remove the existing ground wire and replace it with a length of RG-8 coax transmission line, enough to reach the ground rod and into the shack to connect to the ground bus. At one end, short (solder) the coax shield to the center conductor of the RG-8 and the remaining pig tail to be connected (soldered) to a short heavy gauge solid copper wire to reach the ground rod (See Fig. 7). At the other end, strip the coax to reveal the center conductor and remove part of its shield. Connect the center conductor to the circuit ground of the equipment. Leave the coax shield open at this end but connect a ceramic disc capacitor (Marked as C1 = 0.001 to 0.1 μF / I Kilo Volt). One terminal of this capacitor is connected to the coax shield and the other terminal to the center conductor (See Fig. 7). The RF suppressor ground system is now complete. helpdesk.flexradio.com/hc/en-us/articles/204779159-Grounding-Systems-in-the-Ham-Shack-Paradigms-Facts-and-Fallacies
Hello HamNoob and thank you for this video which I believe have helped me get a better TX on my rig which is in the exact situation as explained. BUT, on the RX, when connecting and tuning the MFJ 931 I do not get any noise reduction, on any band. The tuner shows that there is RF ground current and that i can tweak the Inductance and capacitance to get the highest current, but again, RX does not get affected at all. Why is that? Why you get a noise reduction when using the tuner in the video? I use an Alpha J-pole Jr antenna for 80m - 6m with auto tuner as well
Question - while this device improves things from an RF resonance standpoint, eliminating a hard connection to earthground greatly increases electrical hazards, especially lightning related. Correct?
I'm sure this is the secret vault bloke, am I correct? I'm a fairly new ham too, have an end fed similar to your set up and am plagued with noise, maybe this is something I should try, was going to try a dipole but very limited for space.
@@TheSecretVault Great. But transmit with a battery terminal connected to the inductor coil? I want to set it up just like he has it in the video. And transmit with it without modifying the tuner. Just like he has it. Still not sure if I can
So your RF earth is connected to your household copper pipe....which is connected to the household electrical earth, these should, and need to be, separate. You could inject Rf straight into the house mains system, and on a U.K. TNCS / PME system is not recommended at all. Using the internal pipework of your house is a bit of a no-no for RF earthing, as any electrician or RF engineer will tell you. Better to have a separate RF earth. One of the RSGB's book explains a lot about PME systems and RF earthing, and I suppose the ARRl will have something although, the American electrical systems differ from the UK's.
I know your not meant to do it but at a push if your really stuck this "may" help... especially if you live up a tower block on floor 14... where you can dangle a long wire secretly out of the block down to the ground... but the wire is just way too long and is causing issues. Or copper pipe can work - but isnt ideal by any means... and could cause inteference for yourself or others... my advice is definately not the way to go unless you have your own house earth and not sharing an earth with other people. That way if you inject RF into the earth and it causes issues - it will only be to your own electrical system in your house, not everyone elses.
@@Pioneer936 Yep.....agreed...For the PME or TNCS electrical system the powers that be even recommend adding and extra earth rod to TNCS systems now..(BS7671) . An RF earth is a completely.different thing.
Dear friend: One can not have an UnUn balun. It's either an UnUn (Unbalanced to Unbalanced) OR a BalUn (Balanced to Unbalanced) transformer. Furthermore: there's a difference between a Endfed Longwire (any length, as long it is NOT a 1/2 wave) and a Endfed Half wave (EFHW) antenna. The transformers used by these antennas are very different! E.g. : a 'longwire' antenna has a typical impedance of 450 Ohms. So a 9:1 UnUn transformer would bring it down to 50 Ohms. a Half wave Endfed antenna needs a transformer in the region of 49:1...
The best explaination of rf ground I have found. Thank you
Thank you...I have been preaching this for years....guys should look at buying a used antenna tuner at a hamfest, and dedicate it to the ground system...73 de VE6PG...
Thanks for a great idea. I'm going to use an unused antenna I have, to do just this during Covid-19 lockdown. Well explained. CJT
Thank you kindly I will do this with my tuner. IM staying on a 3rd floor apartment and IM getting missive amounts of noise. The best explanation ever good job. By the way I did it right after watching this video and It works amazing. But I'm not grounding the wires to anything is simply a counterpoise ground 1/4 wavelength long for each band. Thanks 73 NP4M
Its better if the wire used is less than 1/4 wavelength for the intended band
Good explanation of what is happening with the RF ground.
Helpful explanation of the importance of a good ground.
Nice info HamNoob! Thanks! 👍⚡📻
I am about to install a 33 ft aluminum pole with a unun and a steel roof as the grounding side and am planning to use the MFJ unit because of being on a second floor. This video explains why and how it should work. I do plan to have a few counterpoise wires for each band going out the window on the roof and hope to tune the system with both ATU and the ground tuner. I think this video helps make sense of my plan. sadly had I knew how another older atu I have might could have been converted to, and been heaver and saved the MFJ price. Thanks for the insight !!!
I think one wire is enough with mfj931, why do you need multiple wires for multiple bands if you going to adjust the Capacitance and inductance on mfj931 for each band
@@Mark300win Several lengths were so I could experiment with the best length for each band, yes needing many all the time permanently is not necessary.
There's a BIG problem here : a End Fed Half Wave with a 9:1 UN UN isn't a End Fed Half Wave at all. This is the first and common error that alot of persons "hit" . It's just a "some lenght" of wire . A End Fed HALF Wave need a 49:1 transformer wich is totally different than a Bal-Un or a Un-Un . An HWEF offer something like 2000+ up Ohm (it vary because the diff "floor/ground") impedance so it doesn't need any radial/counterpoise ( it use the coax shield ) .
Every antenna needs a ground and counterpoise, hence why a efhw coax is lit up like a powerline.
I agree with the coax counterpoise but it will perform even better if you add .05 wavelength counterpoise. This will also help dissipate some common mode RF. And on his defense not everyone knows the difference between end feed antennas and random lengths antennas. People just simply purchase the because of the description given from the sellers. Marketing techniques. Trust me I’m guilty of it . I didn’t know the difference either.
I use a 30ft “random” wire with a 9:1 UnUn. 17ft from the feedpoint I have inserted a RF isolator/choke. By doing this I have provided a counterpoise, but because of the isolator in line I have no common mode current and nasty RF back at the operating position. I have effectively created an off centre fed multiband “dipole” to use between 40m and 10m.
Nicely explained with practical demonstration. Thanks very much, 73 de VU2LU - Ramesh Kumar
Good learning about grounds...My shack is on the second floor
Nice little video v informative.🐻🤗👍
Good details. I'm not sure about the output from the artificial ground such as the mfj-931. I'm hearing it goes to ground, but do not understand that if the 931 is the ground.
I think you mix up two things. A HWEF (Half Wave End Fed) needs almost no counterpoise and no grounding. An 1:9 endfend antenna needs a very good ground and a choke to keep RF out our your rig.
So an artificial ground may be useful for an 1:9 endfed antenna system to setup your ground system as good as possible. For a real HWEF, you need about 0.05 Lambda of counterpoise and this can be done e.g. by a choke somewhere within you coax feed line.
Sounds great... you should do a video. Sounds like you know a lot more about it than me and I would love to see some videos on this.
Just started to write the same thing.
There are several misconceptions in the video:
1. That first example of EFHW was without unun? Every EFHW build nowadays contains 49:1 or 64:1 unun to make the impedance of EFHW as close to 50 ohm as possible
2. Because of that, EFHW usually doesn't need an antenna tuner at all, or, in some situations, internal ATU of the radio is good enough to compensate for some local problems.
3. Even EFHW should have a counterpoise to prevent CMC. Sometimes, without counterpoise used, the coax shield is used as a counterpoise, but that means CMC and in that case, at least ferites or CMC choke (near the antenna, preferably) can solve the problem. Counterpoise length can be fine-tuned, but 0.05 wavelength of lowest band should be a good compromise.
4. Long wire/random wire is of course end fed, but the impedance and the behaviour is different. It is roughly matched by 9:1 transformer to the value which should be then more easily matched to 50 ohm by the tuner - the impedance still can be out of the range of internal tuners.
5. Long wire/random wire (however, the length is not that "random") antennas are noisy. Especially in the town or other densely inhabited area full of RFI. They also aren't that efficient (but on the other side it can be the only manageable solution to get 160 m band working).
6. The difference from EFHW is the CMC is much worse, too. And now we have real problem with grounding or CMC... I would say even the basic description of possible countermeasures are a bit long for youtube comment :D
I am always surprised all end fed antennas have those counterpoise/grounding terminals but almost nobody use them :D
This is a tuned ground. I do this for my counterpoise so I can tune the 'ground' on any band. Noise definitely drops. WHy? Cause the noise is TUNED OUT (wide band noise is reduced by the TUNED circuit (has a narrow bandwidth),
Exactly what I plan to do, glad to know some one else is doing, it gives me hope my own plan will work.
I've purchased a MFJ 931 to achieve that, installed it just like explained to my earth rod that is 65 feet away from my rig. but no reduction or noise or RX improvement... not sure why. @HamNoob any idea?
Just found your video....very good! I have a second story shack, as described, with a heavy wire down to an 8' rod (utility grounding system from hardware store). My endfed would run from house peak through trees. My concern is lightning protection. Any thoughts for protecting a second story shack using an endfed like your example? Thanks for your help, please.
Awesome demonstration. Thank you.
There is a much better, much cheaper solution involving a bit of RG-8, and a simple ceramic capacitor. RF Suppressor Ground System.
Installation of the RF suppressor - Remove the existing ground wire and replace it with a length of RG-8 coax transmission line, enough to reach the ground rod and into the shack to connect to the ground bus. At one end, short (solder) the coax shield to the center conductor of the RG-8 and the remaining pig tail to be connected (soldered) to a short heavy gauge solid copper wire to reach the ground rod (See Fig. 7). At the other end, strip the coax to reveal the center conductor and remove part of its shield. Connect the center conductor to the circuit ground of the equipment. Leave the coax shield open at this end but connect a ceramic disc capacitor (Marked as C1 = 0.001 to 0.1 μF / I Kilo Volt). One terminal of this capacitor is connected to the coax shield and the other terminal to the center conductor (See Fig. 7). The RF suppressor ground system is now complete.
helpdesk.flexradio.com/hc/en-us/articles/204779159-Grounding-Systems-in-the-Ham-Shack-Paradigms-Facts-and-Fallacies
Sounds great... you should do a little video on how to do it and what it means. I would love to watch.
Awesome link! Thanks so much for sharing
Nicely explained - thanks
Nice! Thank you!
Hello HamNoob and thank you for this video which I believe have helped me get a better TX on my rig which is in the exact situation as explained. BUT, on the RX, when connecting and tuning the MFJ 931 I do not get any noise reduction, on any band. The tuner shows that there is RF ground current and that i can tweak the Inductance and capacitance to get the highest current, but again, RX does not get affected at all. Why is that? Why you get a noise reduction when using the tuner in the video? I use an Alpha J-pole Jr antenna for 80m - 6m with auto tuner as well
How long is the wire attached to your mfj931?
Very useful vid👍🐻🤗
Question - while this device improves things from an RF resonance standpoint, eliminating a hard connection to earthground greatly increases electrical hazards, especially lightning related. Correct?
i know Im pretty off topic but do anybody know a good site to stream newly released series online?
@Christopher Otis i watch on Flixzone. Just search on google for it =)
@Xzavier Bridger Definitely, I have been using Flixzone for months myself =)
@Xzavier Bridger yea, have been using flixzone for months myself =)
@Xzavier Bridger Thanks, I went there and it seems to work =) I really appreciate it !
I'm sure this is the secret vault bloke, am I correct? I'm a fairly new ham too, have an end fed similar to your set up and am plagued with noise, maybe this is something I should try, was going to try a dipole but very limited for space.
Excellent. Thanks
wouldn't you resolve this easier by having a inverted L and earthing at the ground connected to a 9:1 balum?
But if radio is on second floor, doesn't that need to be earthed as well?? Is ground connecting 9:1 balun enough??
Ineresting. Do you have the paperwork that came with the atu in your video.
I take it that your "ground" tuner is floating above earth, ie has no ground/earth at all to it's chassis?
Yes it does... so definately dont touch when operating... and disconnect if there is a storm.
Antennas dont require an earth connection they require a groundplane totally different
Multiple ground rods are strictly against the National Electrical code for a really good reason.
tq for u video.... nice n good for ham user.
73
9w2yzi
penang, malaysia
Can you transmit 100 watts with this?
sure
@@TheSecretVault Great. But transmit with a battery terminal connected to the inductor coil? I want to set it up just like he has it in the video. And transmit with it without modifying the tuner. Just like he has it. Still not sure if I can
So your RF earth is connected to your household copper pipe....which is connected to the household electrical earth, these should, and need to be, separate.
You could inject Rf straight into the house mains system, and on a U.K. TNCS / PME system is not recommended at all.
Using the internal pipework of your house is a bit of a no-no for RF earthing, as any electrician or RF engineer will tell you.
Better to have a separate RF earth.
One of the RSGB's book explains a lot about PME systems and RF earthing, and I suppose the ARRl will have something although, the American electrical systems differ from the UK's.
I know your not meant to do it but at a push if your really stuck this "may" help... especially if you live up a tower block on floor 14... where you can dangle a long wire secretly out of the block down to the ground... but the wire is just way too long and is causing issues. Or copper pipe can work - but isnt ideal by any means... and could cause inteference for yourself or others... my advice is definately not the way to go unless you have your own house earth and not sharing an earth with other people. That way if you inject RF into the earth and it causes issues - it will only be to your own electrical system in your house, not everyone elses.
On a pme system if a ground rod is used it must be bonded back to the house earth (MET)
@@Pioneer936 Yep.....agreed...For the PME or TNCS electrical system the powers that be even recommend adding and extra earth rod to TNCS systems now..(BS7671) .
An RF earth is a completely.different thing.
@@ningis21 I would follow the rsgb info and avoid any earth connection
thank you
Dear friend: One can not have an UnUn balun. It's either an UnUn (Unbalanced to Unbalanced) OR a BalUn (Balanced to Unbalanced) transformer. Furthermore: there's a difference between a Endfed Longwire (any length, as long it is NOT a 1/2 wave) and a Endfed Half wave (EFHW) antenna. The transformers used by these antennas are very different!
E.g. : a 'longwire' antenna has a typical impedance of 450 Ohms. So a 9:1 UnUn transformer would bring it down to 50 Ohms. a Half wave Endfed antenna needs a transformer in the region of 49:1...
This is not an EFHW matter, it's a gound /earth discussion ( a nice and well done one)
Thank your for a very informative video. de LB1KH
You have been misled, see here
www.g4akc.co.uk/ground-tuning-units-gtus/
73 de LZ2SEP.