I've enjoyed the above video multiple times, but it struck me suddenly thinking about the classic Tolkien and Fritz Leiber stories the thief class is where a small person, maybe a hobbit or just a small man, can really contribute by being overlooked but also low-mass, wiry and able to enter a small space. Suddenly the odd juxtaposition of that small person in a bold adventuring party makes sense. In Tolkien it was more about dragons not identifying a new type of intruder by smell. But in stories like Leiber's where steady stealing, not just looting dungeons but actively stealing in urban settings, is more of the goal, the small man holds his own, just as the brawny man does. Conan proves that a big man can steal just fine. The brawny man isn't worse necessarily, but together they complement their traits and can adapt to more situations. You can't diss the small thief, though. I think this idea did get lost as I find as more people discover the game it becomes harder to act against type. Specialization attracts strategic thinkers, but as with all TTRPGs creative roleplay gives way to strategic min/maxing and in all my latter-day play it seems all about sneak attack happening every single round, a really hard-to-believe ability. And all kinds of subclasses can sneak attack with hand-waving as to how it happens. I suspect in the old days there were rationales in that ability. My memory is that first one had to disengage, rolling to determine success, then hide-in-shadows assuming there were such, another check, and actually get behind a monster engaged with formidable characters. Some other UA-camr OG recalled that when the Thief class rolled out, it seemed that every PC should be a thief, I think a sign that a lot of dungeon tasks were simply too hard to be taken for granted. This is my memory, too. All the dungeon tasks were too hard and there was frustration. The thief seemed the perfect solution. There was less difference from FIghters and Clerics in terms of combat, so they didn't seem crippled in combat by comparison. I guess my OSR is showing in that I think much was lost that should have been remembered.
My thieves are Swashbuckling heroes who rely on guile, stealth, and finesse to deal with challenges. As the Fighter and the Magic-User are opposites, so are the thief and the Cleric. The Cleric must adhere to a code to gain the favor of their deity, whereas the Thief has no such moral restrictions. The cleric may acouter himself in the best armor he can find, the Thief must make do with leather or suffer the consequences (presumably the inability to perform thief skills). The Cleric must weild only blunt weapons. The Thief may use anything to get the job done. Imagine being backstabbed with a halberd! Both Clerics and Thieves can find traps, the Cleric with divine intervention, the Thief by good old fashioned practice and application of skills and talents. Clerics and Thieves share the same attack bonus by level (in B/X…and in 3rd and later editions, but not in AD&D). The Thief can potentially cast spells froms scrolls… any type of spell, so long as they can make the skill check. Clerics are restricted (if you can call it that) to their Class Spell List. The Thief is a representation of a type of character from fiction. The clever hero. Such representstions include: The Gray Mauser Aladdin James Bond Long John Silver Indiana Jones The Artful Dodger The Clever Tailor Captain Blood Bilbo Baggins The Thief has a place in Fantasy RPG’s. He always has.
Glad you found it useful and not schlock! I try really hard to avoid doing the same lists and memes as other channels... maybe that’s why my subscriber list is so low. 😆
@@HexedPress If it's any consolation, I share videos like yours as an individual more than I do with the random mainstream ones. Have a great day dude, stay safe!
A thief in a dungeon is one thing. A thief in a town is a totally different animal. Knowing more about the seedier side of life allows them to really show off their other skills. Making deals, weeding out rumors, making contacts and such can really help out the whole group.
You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD. It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD. Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves. Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
I have been playing a couple different Thief characters in few Old School Essentials games using pretty much "by the book", rules as written, Thief skills and abilities. In some ways, this has been an interesting way to play test what the intention of the original B/X designers had in mind for this class because it is quite nebulous how some of their skills can be used. I like some of your Thief interpretations however, in a game where the DM does not include any kind of Homebrew or interpretations away from the book(s) as written, the Thief becomes problematic. In my experience in BOTH games where I have played the Thief, I have reached over 5th level due in part to having a large party and standing in the back with a bow to avoid getting hit, acting like a Magic-User. During this time, I have used Backstab successfully exactly 0 times for both characters, "hidden in shadows" never, and only ever had the opportunity to locate a treasure trap once. In reaching 5th level, with 1d4 hp per level, I feel that this puts a Thief's usefulness pretty low. After having read many articles and threads about the Thief, almost everyone comes up with some kind of homebrew to make this class more useful than just rolling a fighter, which in effect, actually has a higher "Hide" skill at 1st level than a thief does, since they get to roll the 1d6 chance to hide and a Thief gets their lowly 10%, when looking strictly as the Rules as written.
I played a thief in a Labyrinth Lord (I think) game and I had fun but I definitely had to coax the GM (who was new to OSR) towards being a bit generous with how they ran skills generally. I did manage to get a couple of backstabs in and I did do the scouting but I hopped to the back when hostilities started. I was, by a good margin, the highest level PC in the game, having been the sole survivor of an almost-TPK. I definitely agree that the rules as written give pretty much zero guidance on running thieves leaving it completely up to the GM how to interpret things from the names of the skills, if they even consider them as anything more than flowery language.
@@HexedPress I’ve always had a love for the thief / rogue class concept and enjoy playing that archetype in different forms because they can be so versatile. I just overall feel like the thief is missing an opportunity to shine in OSR games. I am slowly putting together my own house rule ideas for a game and checking different options. One idea I liked was the Thief skill as a saving throw idea that someone came up with. My only issue is that these scenarios still make a low level thief a significantly weaker party member than other classes and I dislike the idea of having to invest levels in a class before their core abilities actually become useful.
I hear what you’re saying but, at the same time, everybody is pretty limited at low levels. Thieves have more special bits on their sheet at first level than anyone. It’s almost more about leaning into those. I don’t know about your tables, but any time parties I played in had thieves, those thieves were in front and getting a lot of spotlight time plying their trade. I know my thief was.
You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD. It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD. Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves. Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
"Let the wookie win". I fully agree with you about thief skills. For many a year now I have used the thief % to represent the most extreme difficulties. Anything short of that is a breeze. Very well stated. On the note of "need for thieves" argument... The problem with thieves, IMO, is that the presence of a specialist of any sort, discourages the players of other classes from attempting the actions of that specialists. Now there isn't a need for this. I try to explain to everyone that every one can try anything, but specialist are better at it. If take time to explain that the the players then I feel it cancels some of the problem of the thief. I will let anyone have the old 1 in 6 try for most things on the thief list, but sometimes they will just fail. If you aren't a thief you won't sneak past a dragon, or hide from the searching eyes of a guardian angel. You won't pick the lock on the dwarf kings treasure vault, or climb the glass tower. Orcs. you can sneak past orcs (assuming you aren't in metal armor).
You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD. It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD. Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves. Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
@@TheArcturusProject Your comment made me think of the original Clash of the Titans movie. Perseus: "We will sneak into the Medusa's lair and when she draws near, while hidden I will sneak attack and behead her" Perseus's men "But Perseus, we cannot do this. We must make a full frontal attack. We are fighters not thieves" Perseus: (facepalm)
To me, the thief has always been an infiltration specialist. I run AD&D and I allow all classes to attempt most “thief abilities”, though they are often hampered by rattling armor or lack of knowledge. I handle these situations with simple d6 checks and surprise rolls. I hold firm to the belief that any character can attempt anything a person can attempt. That being said, I think thieves are awesome. Their backstab is deadly, their ability to speak thieves cant allows them to make underworld connections right under the nose of their lawful party members. A competent thief can sneak into a lich’s lair, steal the evil tome and leave. No need for several party members to die. The high probability of failure for low-level thieves can be offset situationally by the DM as you said. “This is an old rusty lock, you have 25% more to your chance to pick it.” I like your dungeon level difficulty idea as well. In regards to your climbing a tree example, I agree that thieves should not have to roll in every circumstance. Also, low HP is part of the archetype. Thieves are not front line fighters, and they level up very quickly.
You’re more right than you know. Thieves were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD. It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD. Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves. Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
This is how I run the entirety of all my games. Wiggle room and latitude, avoid rolling by clever play, not only does this make rolls count it makes descriptions vital as well.
This is awesome. I listened to Bandit Keep’s video on old-school thieves as well and you guys have totally sold me on their legitimacy. I had never thought of giving freebies for challenges lower than the thieves level.
It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because theories were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD. Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party site on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief grabs the treasure. The thief comes back out. Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a thief and was intended to participate in robbing graves and playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to play, like the game was originally designed. Thank you for your time
For those who didn’t know, Thieves were a fan submission from some guys at MIT iirc. They were not a class in ODnD. It was only fighting man, cleric, and magic user, for all the reasons I said above :)
I run BECMI and I level cap at 5(only ever run one or two shots). I house rule that thief abilities work like saving throws in that you only have to roll them if you fail the initial 1 in 6 roll that all classes rely on. Also they add their dexterity to their thief abilities scores and sneak attack damage. When you only run low level games you need to make thieves a little more alluring lol
One games system with a severally underestimated Thief is Fantasy Trip. Wow the fun you can have with that skill in that game system. Take Fencing and Megahex Shadow.
I'm kind of torn between wanting to keep the thief and wanting to get rid of it. I like the idea of the thief being a class but I also don't really see the need for them since I think any class should be able to try to pick locks, pickpocket, etc. I'm toying with the idea of reworking their skills and giving everyone a 1-in-6 chance of doing any thief skill except for move silently and climb sheer surfaces. The thief would have the benefit of being able to improve these skills but the other players would still be able to try most things. I was also thinking of using the progression for hear noise for every other skill as well except for climb sheer surfaces which I would just give an immediate 5-in-6 chance at 1st level. My only issue with changing the progression to using a d6 is that the power level of thieves decreases but I like how simple it is and that using a d6 skill mechanic seems like a better fit than a list of various percentages. I'm also debating about whether they should have a d6 for HD like they do in AD&D, maybe that could make up for the decrease in power.
Good idea great video. I kinda sum up this into the mindset that the DM should be a fan of the adventurers allowing this type of skill stuff regularly in the game speeds up play too. Kinda like a fighter what if the fighter auto hit or auto crit 1 hit die monsters or a favorite enemy type ability just so the fighter feels more awesome. Do the same thing for each class talk it over with the group.
@@HexedPress yeah I played a Tabaxi in a game they have a 30 ft. climb speed and the dm ask me to roll a climb up a tree I was like what? are you serious that totally destroys me being a Tabaxi he said yes roll I laughed and left the game
Some cool ideas here. I really like the idea of if the dungeon level is lower than the thief’s level they can either just automatically succeed or at the very least have an increased chance.
I usually just axe the thief and give fighter the 2d6 theif skill system or if playing Lamentations I give every class different amount of skill points to spend.
Yes! There it is! My man! You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD. It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD. Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves. Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
I think you suggested elsewhere using the Cleric's Turning Table for something else. I think Thieve's Skills would be a prime candidate: most of these checks are about beating someones perception and there should be a relativity to it (sneaking past some green recruits should be easier than their 3 HD seargeant at arms) For traps, their "level" could be a function of the Dungeon Level (DL+1d3). The only thing that bothers me of this approach is that it eliminates the possibility of failure for higher level thieves and there is a part of my GM soul that tells me that this is not really feasable.
I think it was for thieves skills. You could always bake in some failure but I think I’m okay with high level thieves breezing through low level stuff. They don’t get much, if any experience for it, and it’s not much different than high level fighters getting to auto-kill handfuls of low HD creatures.
A base line for skill percentages of a thief should start higher. 35 to 50% before dexterity, or racial modifer is applied. The level increases to skill percentages should be reduced. This serves two purposes. First, their capabilities need to be better, than someone that has no understanding of such skills. What old D&D did is just defaulted to having people start at 0% chance to justify how skillful a thief can be. Second, thieves should be extremely reluctant paying another thief to teach them. Thieves are stereotyped as being greedy, and miserly. A thief shouldn't be incentivize to gain levels. It would be more fitting for them to seek luxury, setting up conditions to extort businesses, blackmail prominent figures, collect dues from members, and resolve turf wars.
I think they're intention was good but they didn't spell things out enough to put thieves on solid ground so it became up to GMs to interpret thief abilities without good guidance.
I've enjoyed the above video multiple times, but it struck me suddenly thinking about the classic Tolkien and Fritz Leiber stories the thief class is where a small person, maybe a hobbit or just a small man, can really contribute by being overlooked but also low-mass, wiry and able to enter a small space. Suddenly the odd juxtaposition of that small person in a bold adventuring party makes sense. In Tolkien it was more about dragons not identifying a new type of intruder by smell. But in stories like Leiber's where steady stealing, not just looting dungeons but actively stealing in urban settings, is more of the goal, the small man holds his own, just as the brawny man does. Conan proves that a big man can steal just fine. The brawny man isn't worse necessarily, but together they complement their traits and can adapt to more situations. You can't diss the small thief, though.
I think this idea did get lost as I find as more people discover the game it becomes harder to act against type. Specialization attracts strategic thinkers, but as with all TTRPGs creative roleplay gives way to strategic min/maxing and in all my latter-day play it seems all about sneak attack happening every single round, a really hard-to-believe ability. And all kinds of subclasses can sneak attack with hand-waving as to how it happens. I suspect in the old days there were rationales in that ability. My memory is that first one had to disengage, rolling to determine success, then hide-in-shadows assuming there were such, another check, and actually get behind a monster engaged with formidable characters.
Some other UA-camr OG recalled that when the Thief class rolled out, it seemed that every PC should be a thief, I think a sign that a lot of dungeon tasks were simply too hard to be taken for granted. This is my memory, too. All the dungeon tasks were too hard and there was frustration. The thief seemed the perfect solution. There was less difference from FIghters and Clerics in terms of combat, so they didn't seem crippled in combat by comparison.
I guess my OSR is showing in that I think much was lost that should have been remembered.
Great points, thanks for taking the time to write them down and share them!
My thieves are Swashbuckling heroes who rely on guile, stealth, and finesse to deal with challenges.
As the Fighter and the Magic-User are opposites, so are the thief and the Cleric. The Cleric must adhere to a code to gain the favor of their deity, whereas the Thief has no such moral restrictions. The cleric may acouter himself in the best armor he can find, the Thief must make do with leather or suffer the consequences (presumably the inability to perform thief skills). The Cleric must weild only blunt weapons. The Thief may use anything to get the job done. Imagine being backstabbed with a halberd!
Both Clerics and Thieves can find traps, the Cleric with divine intervention, the Thief by good old fashioned practice and application of skills and talents.
Clerics and Thieves share the same attack bonus by level (in B/X…and in 3rd and later editions, but not in AD&D). The Thief can potentially cast spells froms scrolls… any type of spell, so long as they can make the skill check. Clerics are restricted (if you can call it that) to their Class Spell List.
The Thief is a representation of a type of character from fiction. The clever hero. Such representstions include:
The Gray Mauser
Aladdin
James Bond
Long John Silver
Indiana Jones
The Artful Dodger
The Clever Tailor
Captain Blood
Bilbo Baggins
The Thief has a place in Fantasy RPG’s. He always has.
Hey man, thank you for all of the content. It's refreshing to hear different stuff rather than the same schlock found elsewhere.
Glad you found it useful and not schlock! I try really hard to avoid doing the same lists and memes as other channels... maybe that’s why my subscriber list is so low. 😆
@@HexedPress If it's any consolation, I share videos like yours as an individual more than I do with the random mainstream ones. Have a great day dude, stay safe!
I appreciate it! Thanks and stay safe as well!
A thief in a dungeon is one thing. A thief in a town is a totally different animal.
Knowing more about the seedier side of life allows them to really show off their other skills. Making deals, weeding out rumors, making contacts and such can really help out the whole group.
Absolutely!
I love the Thief, but I still can't get over how weird it is having a professional dungeoneer in a game about dungeoneering.
You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD.
It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD.
Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves.
Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
I have been playing a couple different Thief characters in few Old School Essentials games using pretty much "by the book", rules as written, Thief skills and abilities. In some ways, this has been an interesting way to play test what the intention of the original B/X designers had in mind for this class because it is quite nebulous how some of their skills can be used.
I like some of your Thief interpretations however, in a game where the DM does not include any kind of Homebrew or interpretations away from the book(s) as written, the Thief becomes problematic.
In my experience in BOTH games where I have played the Thief, I have reached over 5th level due in part to having a large party and standing in the back with a bow to avoid getting hit, acting like a Magic-User. During this time, I have used Backstab successfully exactly 0 times for both characters, "hidden in shadows" never, and only ever had the opportunity to locate a treasure trap once. In reaching 5th level, with 1d4 hp per level, I feel that this puts a Thief's usefulness pretty low. After having read many articles and threads about the Thief, almost everyone comes up with some kind of homebrew to make this class more useful than just rolling a fighter, which in effect, actually has a higher "Hide" skill at 1st level than a thief does, since they get to roll the 1d6 chance to hide and a Thief gets their lowly 10%, when looking strictly as the Rules as written.
I played a thief in a Labyrinth Lord (I think) game and I had fun but I definitely had to coax the GM (who was new to OSR) towards being a bit generous with how they ran skills generally. I did manage to get a couple of backstabs in and I did do the scouting but I hopped to the back when hostilities started. I was, by a good margin, the highest level PC in the game, having been the sole survivor of an almost-TPK.
I definitely agree that the rules as written give pretty much zero guidance on running thieves leaving it completely up to the GM how to interpret things from the names of the skills, if they even consider them as anything more than flowery language.
@@HexedPress I’ve always had a love for the thief / rogue class concept and enjoy playing that archetype in different forms because they can be so versatile. I just overall feel like the thief is missing an opportunity to shine in OSR games. I am slowly putting together my own house rule ideas for a game and checking different options. One idea I liked was the Thief skill as a saving throw idea that someone came up with. My only issue is that these scenarios still make a low level thief a significantly weaker party member than other classes and I dislike the idea of having to invest levels in a class before their core abilities actually become useful.
I hear what you’re saying but, at the same time, everybody is pretty limited at low levels. Thieves have more special bits on their sheet at first level than anyone. It’s almost more about leaning into those. I don’t know about your tables, but any time parties I played in had thieves, those thieves were in front and getting a lot of spotlight time plying their trade. I know my thief was.
You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD.
It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD.
Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves.
Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
"Let the wookie win".
I fully agree with you about thief skills. For many a year now I have used the thief % to represent the most extreme difficulties. Anything short of that is a breeze.
Very well stated.
On the note of "need for thieves" argument...
The problem with thieves, IMO, is that the presence of a specialist of any sort, discourages the players of other classes from attempting the actions of that specialists. Now there isn't a need for this. I try to explain to everyone that every one can try anything, but specialist are better at it. If take time to explain that the the players then I feel it cancels some of the problem of the thief.
I will let anyone have the old 1 in 6 try for most things on the thief list, but sometimes they will just fail. If you aren't a thief you won't sneak past a dragon, or hide from the searching eyes of a guardian angel. You won't pick the lock on the dwarf kings treasure vault, or climb the glass tower.
Orcs. you can sneak past orcs (assuming you aren't in metal armor).
You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD.
It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD.
Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves.
Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
@@TheArcturusProject Your comment made me think of the original Clash of the Titans movie.
Perseus: "We will sneak into the Medusa's lair and when she draws near, while hidden I will sneak attack and behead her"
Perseus's men "But Perseus, we cannot do this. We must make a full frontal attack. We are fighters not thieves"
Perseus: (facepalm)
@@marcusgrimmm lol
To me, the thief has always been an infiltration specialist. I run AD&D and I allow all classes to attempt most “thief abilities”, though they are often hampered by rattling armor or lack of knowledge. I handle these situations with simple d6 checks and surprise rolls. I hold firm to the belief that any character can attempt anything a person can attempt.
That being said, I think thieves are awesome. Their backstab is deadly, their ability to speak thieves cant allows them to make underworld connections right under the nose of their lawful party members. A competent thief can sneak into a lich’s lair, steal the evil tome and leave. No need for several party members to die.
The high probability of failure for low-level thieves can be offset situationally by the DM as you said. “This is an old rusty lock, you have 25% more to your chance to pick it.” I like your dungeon level difficulty idea as well.
In regards to your climbing a tree example, I agree that thieves should not have to roll in every circumstance. Also, low HP is part of the archetype. Thieves are not front line fighters, and they level up very quickly.
Good point about the leveling! Something I appreciate in these systems is how the level requirements can help balance the class.
You’re more right than you know. Thieves were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD.
It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD.
Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves.
Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
This is how I run the entirety of all my games. Wiggle room and latitude, avoid rolling by clever play, not only does this make rolls count it makes descriptions vital as well.
This is awesome. I listened to Bandit Keep’s video on old-school thieves as well and you guys have totally sold me on their legitimacy. I had never thought of giving freebies for challenges lower than the thieves level.
Glad it spoke to you! 😁
It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because theories were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD.
Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party site on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief grabs the treasure. The thief comes back out.
Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a thief and was intended to participate in robbing graves and playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to play, like the game was originally designed.
Thank you for your time
Thanks for the pin! I appreciate your hard work
For those who didn’t know, Thieves were a fan submission from some guys at MIT iirc. They were not a class in ODnD. It was only fighting man, cleric, and magic user, for all the reasons I said above :)
The thief was actually trash at everything tho
I run BECMI and I level cap at 5(only ever run one or two shots). I house rule that thief abilities work like saving throws in that you only have to roll them if you fail the initial 1 in 6 roll that all classes rely on. Also they add their dexterity to their thief abilities scores and sneak attack damage.
When you only run low level games you need to make thieves a little more alluring lol
The first issue of Carcass Crawler, the OSE zine, has a nice, beautifully laid out write up on how to rule thief skills
I'll try to check it out. Thanks for the heads up!
One games system with a severally underestimated Thief is Fantasy Trip. Wow the fun you can have with that skill in that game system. Take Fencing and Megahex Shadow.
Good point! The Fantasy strip is under appreciated generally.
I'm kind of torn between wanting to keep the thief and wanting to get rid of it. I like the idea of the thief being a class but I also don't really see the need for them since I think any class should be able to try to pick locks, pickpocket, etc. I'm toying with the idea of reworking their skills and giving everyone a 1-in-6 chance of doing any thief skill except for move silently and climb sheer surfaces. The thief would have the benefit of being able to improve these skills but the other players would still be able to try most things. I was also thinking of using the progression for hear noise for every other skill as well except for climb sheer surfaces which I would just give an immediate 5-in-6 chance at 1st level. My only issue with changing the progression to using a d6 is that the power level of thieves decreases but I like how simple it is and that using a d6 skill mechanic seems like a better fit than a list of various percentages. I'm also debating about whether they should have a d6 for HD like they do in AD&D, maybe that could make up for the decrease in power.
#dmtips for me, the thief character class represents a valid character archetype #osr #dnd
Good idea great video. I kinda sum up this into the mindset that the DM should be a fan of the adventurers allowing this type of skill stuff regularly in the game speeds up play too.
Kinda like a fighter what if the fighter auto hit or auto crit 1 hit die monsters or a favorite enemy type ability just so the fighter feels more awesome. Do the same thing for each class talk it over with the group.
Thanks!
Indeed. I also like that it is transparent to the player. They can assess and make an informed decision.
@@HexedPress yeah I played a Tabaxi in a game they have a 30 ft. climb speed and the dm ask me to roll a climb up a tree I was like what? are you serious that totally destroys me being a Tabaxi he said yes roll I laughed and left the game
Some cool ideas here. I really like the idea of if the dungeon level is lower than the thief’s level they can either just automatically succeed or at the very least have an increased chance.
I usually just axe the thief and give fighter the 2d6 theif skill system or if playing Lamentations I give every class different amount of skill points to spend.
Nice! I think that’s a popular thief alternative- just give access to thief skills to the other classes.
Yes! There it is! My man!
You’re more right than you know. Thiefs were not made by Gary and not a part of ODnD.
It’s my sworn duty to decry the merit of the thief class wherever it’s talked about. Thief was invented by some power gamers at MIT because they wanted a class that was specifically designed to be good at the MetaGame of “playing Dungeons and Dragons.” They are indeed thieves, but what they steal is fun from every other player at the table. Here is a list of activities that every player at the table did before thieves existed, that made dungeons and dragons fun: sneaking through new scary places, figuring out how to disarm or dodge traps, hiding from bad guys, ambushing bad guys, distracting guards with smooth talk while someone else steals the treasure. Does this list sound EXACTLY like every thief ability? That’s because they were designed by AMATEURS to specifically be the best at playing DnD.
Now the problem is, since the thief is better at all these things, and can solve them all with a simple die roll, why would anyone else try these things? Furthermore, why would the thief role play or think creatively when he can simply roll a die? So now the game becomes the thief rolling dice by himself while the rest of the party sit on their hands. The thief goes first. The thief checks for traps. The thief picks the lock. The thief sneaks into the room. The thief climbs the wall. The thief backstabs the guard. The thief steals the treasure. The thief comes back out. Everyone else should just kill themselves.
Remove thieves from the game because every character is inherently a dungeon robbing thief and was intended to participate in playing dungeons and dragons. Every character should think creatively and get to do the things that make up the game.
@@TheArcturusProject Holy based
I think you suggested elsewhere using the Cleric's Turning Table for something else. I think Thieve's Skills would be a prime candidate: most of these checks are about beating someones perception and there should be a relativity to it (sneaking past some green recruits should be easier than their 3 HD seargeant at arms) For traps, their "level" could be a function of the Dungeon Level (DL+1d3). The only thing that bothers me of this approach is that it eliminates the possibility of failure for higher level thieves and there is a part of my GM soul that tells me that this is not really feasable.
I think it was for thieves skills. You could always bake in some failure but I think I’m okay with high level thieves breezing through low level stuff. They don’t get much, if any experience for it, and it’s not much different than high level fighters getting to auto-kill handfuls of low HD creatures.
A base line for skill percentages of a thief should start higher. 35 to 50% before dexterity, or racial modifer is applied. The level increases to skill percentages should be reduced. This serves two purposes. First, their capabilities need to be better, than someone that has no understanding of such skills. What old D&D did is just defaulted to having people start at 0% chance to justify how skillful a thief can be. Second, thieves should be extremely reluctant paying another thief to teach them. Thieves are stereotyped as being greedy, and miserly. A thief shouldn't be incentivize to gain levels. It would be more fitting for them to seek luxury, setting up conditions to extort businesses, blackmail prominent figures, collect dues from members, and resolve turf wars.
i just dont understand why they made thieves to be so ass
I think they're intention was good but they didn't spell things out enough to put thieves on solid ground so it became up to GMs to interpret thief abilities without good guidance.