Are the War Within Affix Changes and Season 1 Dungeons Good? | M+ Beta Testing Thoughts and Feedback
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- With the first weekend of mythic+ testing complete on TWW beta, I go through my opinions on the 4 new affixes as well as the dungeon pool for S1, going over what looks good and what I think needs to change before the expansion launches. For more War Within content on dungeons, raids, and tanks make sure you're subscribed to my channel!
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00:00 Trash and Boss Design
05:51 Affix Feedback
15:06 Dungeon Feedback - Ігри
Really dont understand what their goal is with the affixes. More strain on tanks will just make less people play the role.
To me at least the goal outside of trying to influence what the "best" classes are from week-to-week is very similar to Fort/Tyran, which is why it's a bit weird to have both at the same time. Also 100% the combination of these affix along with the current level 7 bucket is a lot for tanks, hoping they address that by either drastically nerfing the +7 affixes or by swapping out which affixes are actually in there so it doesn't predominantly fall on tank players to deal with.
@@Tactyks Well you tested it and you're input is sharper than our perception. But isn't that worst for pug forming? Its even worst if u're trying to group with friends and make it mandatory for... for example a mage to be respeccing and changing gear and enchants every week, cause ppl tend to min max even on lower keys. And for those tanks who pug like me... its all going to fall on the tank. And my sugestion on bolstering would be for it to give x% of hp on a mob and reduce its damage done on the same amount of x% of hp, and just make it not stackable, but every time a mob dies its renewed on the mobs around. Think that would work alot better :)
@@fmlo I guess the question is would this be better for PUG grouping vs the current situation, where you only have like 5-8 specs anyone ever considers inviting vs this affix where if you're an off-meta spec MAYBE you'd be able to get invites during the weeks where you damage is buff. Not saying its the right solution here either, just that I understand where they're coming from. Also that being said, the damage amps (at least for magic users) aren't actually that big, so if fire is like 5% better than arcane overall for example, I think you'd still play fire even on arcane damage weeks if you're min/maxing.
mythic+ is just masochism for tanks and healers.
Last boss in NW should only send people down every 25% and it should never pick the same dps.
Yeah a significantly reduced frequency on that mechanic would be very nice.
They could also change it, so that one player has to go into a circle to go down at certain times - maybe the 25% (gets a debuff and can't go again right away) and gets a better dmg amp when they come back. Giving dps the option to align on CD timings and maximizing the dmg amp buff, would be a lot more fun and engaging gameplay than what we had there before.
I really hope if nothing else they swap the lvl 7 affixes with simple movement ones i.e. volcanic, storming, entangling.
Yeah this would be the easy quick fix that would make the season feel WAY better with minimal effort.
yes the level 7 affixes need to be changed.
Maybe if mobs couldn't immediately start casting again after an interrupt that would work better? I mean if a player gets interrupted they are locked out of that school of magic for like 5 seconds or something? I forget but interrupting mobs just to have them immediately cast the same spell again makes it hard for them to try new things and feels stupid. Interrupting adds at the last second of the cast to add more downtime between the cast should feel good just like pvp.
I believe this is still currently the case, just sometime in dragonflight (can't remember exactly when) they reduced the duration of kick lockouts across the board, making spam casters a bit more annoying to deal with. Would be nice if they undid that for PvE or just added cooldowns to all spells so that it didn't feel like you need a ton of stops/silences to keep a group of casters locked down.
alternatively for sanguine - I do like your suggestion, but I could imagine sanguine having an "HP pool" meaning its shrinking in size as much as its healed and its capped on +10 level. Obviously this will still make sanguine "not good" but we will finally avoid having those insane sanguine heals even when people are using their push spells. Just like we have issues now with Neltharus and Uldaman on Sanguine weeks - we will have issues in many keys in TWW too (narrow corridors).
Thats another good suggestion I've heard yeah, could accomplish a similar thing as the DR assuming the HP pool on them isn't too high.
Thank you so much for all these recommendations!! I hope blizzard watches this, you give feedback for all players and not just the top players! I love the ideas you had to fix the affixes! Great video!
Of course, glad to hear you agree with the points and enjoy the content!
Equinox posted similar and I 100% agree. The stops Olympics is ridiculous. It echoes the mistake of raids where they got into an arms race with race for world first and that damage is still somewhat seen in mythic raiding, where a lot of CE raiders just don't care and do midcore guilds if that. Now we see it already in m+ where folks find the control stuff out of hand and unfun and don't push past their portals.
I work with a few communities and it really makes people feel beat down when they have to memorize a raid boss worth of mechanics on a dungeon pack. It felt like Blizz yet again got in arms race with MDI and forgot thats .001%. Plus there is a feedback problem, where we do have some try hards but also casual players who don't step into one unless carried and they hop on forums going "this is fine"
Yeah its just gotten to be too much, even as a high player myself I personally don't think its fun to have to know 10 different abilities on a single pack and then coordinate your AoE stops for every single pull so you can chain CC the pack for 60s at a time. Hoping they choose to go another direction.
i think they should remove all the affixes for the first few weeks of the season 1 and work from there to maybe give the player a mini-patch with affixes that will be fun
I would definitely be really interested in seeing how an "affixless" season (or part of a season as you mentioned) would go!
Love this idea, also would give ppl easier time to get used to the dungeon pool...
For Bolstering you can just limit the number of stacks a mob can get and/or make the stacks fall off quicker (and not refresh when a new one is applied).
For Sanguine: make the pools shrink when anyone is standing in there (enemy or ally). So if a really bad sanguine pool drops on a lieutenant mob that starts casting, the group can rush in to soak the sanguine pool.
For Bursting: limit the number of possible stacks to like 7, make the DoT last 1 second longer, but not refresh stacks on new applications (each stack has its own fixed duration).
Raging: same idea you had where they are immune to the first CC (although that just further worsens the AoE CC meta).
I believe bolstering stacks already don't refresh and will slowly roll off, and honestly even capping bolstering doesn't do much to change my opinion of it. The changes to the other affixes would definitely be nice improvements though!
@@Tactyks they dont stack, theyre like frailty, but when there are 8 mobs, and 7 are the same hp, if all 7 bolster the 8th at the same time it doesnt make a difference
I think we all agree that the intention behind bolstering is to have people optimize damage to focus on everything dying evenly. So, why not just make it that certain mob types bolster each other into a linked community and only die when they all reach 0%. That encourages even damage and might require priority dmg (depending on which mobs are linked). It removes the issue of selected mobs being scaled out of portion and one-shotting everything and instead keeps the difficulty of the pull consistent to what you pull.
That is a really interesting idea that solves the damage scaling issue!
they should create an affix called burnout.. when you kill a mob it gives you a stacking dot that increases damage dealt and damage either taken or a damaging dot. Keep killing and keep getting stronger but you will eventually have to clear it or die. something like that that has a high reward and a significant cost.
So like if they added a kiss to bursting? Sounds interesting for sure!
honestly surprised ppl are complaining about double sigil nerf, ya know maybe give it to elysian as well, but 1. having to blow globals on cc as a tank doesnt really feel good. And 2. vdh is still the easiest tank to live on, especially since double brand will probably be the goto pick and that is a huge buff to survivability.
I'm not too surprised, a similar thing happened back with BDK in S3/S4 of SL where a lot of players were saying it wasn't crazy OP and shouldn't be nerfed, just buff other tanks to be the same strength!!! A lot of players are very tribalistic around their favourite spec I find haha.
Mechanic vomit 😂😂. That's has to be the best way to describe it that I've ever heard. And it's so true
Hahaha yeah there's just so much stuff happening at once, would love to see it brought down a level as I think it would just make keys in general feel more fun!
I feel like for NW the last boss should give a significantly higher damage amp to whoever goes downstairs AND allow you to choose. This allows you to play around it and also doesn't force you to play roulette if you are running Aug. Augs personal damage IS a bit higher on beta than live, but it still is going to feel awful if you lose the 1 in 3.
I do agree the roulette thing can be frustrating, letting you choose by clicking on some device would be cool, or at the very least let it rotate through players so you know you can't get picked multiple times in a set of 3 casts.
2:25 just remove the utility sigils from Illuminated Sigils. You can keep flame and decree as 2 charges that's whatever.
That's what I'd like to see as well (and maybe a buff to cycle of binding as that will significantly reduce the value of that talent), but we'll see what happens.
@@Tactyks What really needs to be removed is my only char's class out of all y'all mouths :D
@@japojapo3269 No :)
@@Tactyks Soooo reeeeeeewd :DD
God, I hope they get rid of anti-fun Sanguine, or implement your proposal. It is such a punishing mechanic in pugs. One mistake where a dps kills a mob just before a big cast can cause a mob to gain millions of health back. It is terrible to play with many classes that need stationary packs like destro lock and balance. I did the least number of keys of the season last week.
Yup, sanguine is always my least played week as well, it's just not fun to play!
even in keys with a really skilled sanguine tank, there can just be minor slip ups that cost a lot of time over the key
The hulking bloodguard 1s stun.. you're not able to jump to avoid the stun? There was a similar mechanic on one of the mobs in the stone core in cata.
Nope, I actually even tried jumping to test because that came to my mind as well, still stunned!
What are looking like the stronger tanks in the beta right now? Haven’t had the time to test them. Only half way through video so sorry in advance if you cover it
It's a bit too early to tell imo given that theres still a lot of bugs and tuning hasnt happened yet. Currently of the ones I tested Prot Warrior was feeling good, but a lot can change between now and launch, which is why I plan to post an up to date tank video going through everything closer to august.
I think if they really want to diversify the classes in M+, instead of making enemies vulnerable to certain type of damage, they can just make enemies vulnerable different classes each week...
Yeah that's a bit more "on the nose" but definitely something they could do if their goal is to try and avoid people only inviting the same 5-8 specs to their PUG group.
I really like your takes, let’s make sure this video gets to blizzard!
Good to hear its not just me haha, hopefully someone sees it and we get a bit of change!
Dungeon RP events should be something they code into Normal/Heroic/M0. When it gets converted to a M+, those elements should be removed.
100%, really hoping City of Threads gets that part taken out because it's a huge buzzkill to an otherwise really good dungeon.
@Tactyks I understand where you're coming from with the comment about doing really large pulls in M+, and it is a personal preference, but I've always liked pulling big and seeing what we can survive; it always added an element of danger/chaos and fun to an activity that can sometimes take itself too seriously. It's a good counter activity to the raid environment, where you can't pull too large, because it is a little more serious and RP than M+. Just my opinion.
I have an idea for a NEW affix that may or may not be horrible, maybe called Split, Devision or Mitosis or something. When non-boss enemies hit 30% hp, they split into two identical (with the same total hp pool as before the split) enemies. That would create more casts, but they'd also have less hp each, so you could aoe them down.
That's super interesting, it would definitely need a restriction on which mobs get the buff (mana/non-mana/lieutenant or something) but I can see that working!
that might be interesting to try as a seasonal affix.
Maybe I am wrong but I’d like your input… I think that trash is more difficult because bosses can’t be! If you add to many mechanics to bosses that require high amounts of coordination for example chargath this season where if all the dps run and break their chains instantly wipe or if one dies before you break their chain wipe. And on bosses if you die on a mechanic you can no longer time the key! I think blizzard wants bosses to be simpler because wiping on bosses and the key dying feels much worse then having a few wipes on trash that you can get back in the fight quickly! You mentioned BRH fun dungeon with pull sizes but you could easily have 25 deaths on a 24 fort key and time but all the bosses were super simple, but if you did die to the last boss even if you had a flawless run to that point 0 deaths and die to the first volly cast you might not be able to time the key anymore because the run back and 2.5 min waisted in combat with that boss. I’m not great at the game only a 3k player never pushed for title and don’t think I’ll ever be able to so I see our experiences are going to be different, and I agree with big pulls being fun, but if they put all the mechanics into boss fights I think pugging will be impossible to time anything
I don't actually think it has to be either or though, you can have fun bosses that aren't overly complex, while also having trash mobs that mostly only have 1 ability each, maybe 2 sometimes and maybe even 0 sometimes. It's hard to say how it would turn out because it's all hypothetical, and I'm totally willing to admit I'm wrong if we have a season like that and it's universally not liked, but we need to actually have dungeons be tuned that way for a season to actually see.
True I don’t think the ridiculous amount of stops is good at all, but I think the devs feel forced that way because boss wipes are over punishing especially if it’s a late wipe. We saw this in AD where people died late in the boss when spiders got crazy and the key is busted because you were in combat for 4 minutes and got absolutely not for it. But I don’t know how they can fix it I think honestly the best thing is to make bosses have check points in health where if you wipe at 10% or whatever when you get back the boss is on 50% instead of 100% because losing 7 or so minutes to deaths, combat time, and run backs is just feels terrible at least in my opinion.
They keep adjusting tanks and healer on the bat nerf, and adjust instances by creating more issues on those roles - makes sense, since we all wanted to be healers and tanks last seasons, the sheer amount of shield and cross icons in lfg was too much for this devs...
Packs should consist mostly of chuff that is literally just there to auto attack for insignificant damage to tank and die to aoe. Their purpose should just be to make sure your team is doing AOE damage efficiently. Have 1 mob that is the "must" kick or stun.. like AOE fear, or massive st to dps etc. Things that are clear and fun to hit and impactful to miss. Having more than one could be a tough pull that you have to do, or result of an misplay that you have to overcome. Oh and get rid of garbage spell graphics.. mobs that have massive positional/direction busters like cones should be clear as day.. not brown on brown graphics that are barely visable.
Yeah I definitely think there's way too much going on at the moment, would be nice to see how different packs feel if they only have 1 ability instead of 2-3.
Really doesn't feel like they accomplished any of the goals they listed in that blue post, so HOPEFULLY we get some iterations cause damn I'm not excited about s1 whatsoever. Dungeon pool seems rough and these affixes aren't it.
Yeah I see the vision but I think they missed a bit. Luckily I think there are still some pretty easy things they can do to remedy that.
No healer will queue in bursting and thorning weeks ngl this combo sounds like your father is waiting in your house to slap your face
Yup another one of those bad combos between a +4 and +7 affix that could be problematic.
30 seconds blinding sleet plz
*Honestly, I'm the type of WoW player that don't miss anything from the old days.*
I don't miss being a Hunter with a bag full of arrows. I don't miss looking for groups in public channels. Even the stuff I liked, I just accept the stuff as they are now.
*What I do miss is dungeons having more depth than pulling 4 packs of mobs, melting them asap with AoE and blaming the tank/healer if we die.*
Honestly, nowadays we just ignore the mobs mechanics and do the same thing in every dungeon. It makes an already repetitive activity feel even more repetitive.
Oh, and if just bundling packs together and melting them down doesn't work, people just quit. It's pretty dumb.
Or just remove all affixes except fortified and tyrannical. Let the difficulty increase the way it is now.
I would definitely be down to see how an affixless season goes!
Double sigils need to be removed, simple as that.
Yup, I'd be fine to see them keep double offensive sigils but the utility ones need to stay at 1, then maybe you can rebuff cycle of binding to compensate as that talent would take a significant hit.
I actually sort of disagree, I pugged all the 20s (10s this season) and honestly playing with Warriors, Paladins and Druids without comms generally yields as good (if not better) results than your average pug DH. Admittedly BrM and BDK feel less good and there is still a very stale high meta to consider.
@@Novara95 I think thats a different issue entirely and has more to do with flavour of the month rerollers being less experienced on a meta spec, causing them to not take full advantage of what it offers and just generally play it worse than someone who is sticking to a spec they enjoy and have played for a while. This happens a ton and isn't limited to VDH, and is kind of why if I'm pugging weekly keys, and I see for example a Prot Warrior and a VDH in the group finder with similar ilvl/score, 10 times out of 10 I am taking the prot warrior.
think theres some sort of competition in their dept to come up with shittiest affix.
Regardless of what Blizzard said about their M+ philosophy, these M+ affixes, old dungeons changes and new dungeons designs seems to indicate that they want M+ to be challenging, not fun. I guess they want to reduce M+ population further in TWW.
The other issue with Dawnbreaker is you are pretty much stuck with a giant block of trash between the first and second boss. There is only one required pull after the second boss so you theoretically are getting to 95% count before the second boss and it is just a bit of a slog.
Yeah, you can split it up with before and after the boss, but you ideally are clearing out a pretty big section of the city around where you're fighting the boss to not pull anything during especially since the tank gets launched pretty far on the buster.
Oh, also, can we stop patrolling bosses? The boss can patrol while hunting down the lieutenants sure, but have it teleport or at least move to a specified spot after the last one dies so you don't have to wait for it to patrol to an area you cleared out.
Throngar or whatever in Grim Batol is kind of the opposite extreme where you actually just end up having to go straight from boss to boss since he ALSO patrols and pulling any of the packs on the ring and him getting buttpulled is probably just a straight up wipe.
Yeah the patrolling bosses definitely got us into some problems in both Grim Batol and Dawnbreaker hahaha
i have zero faith in blizzard anymore. they've had over a decade to fine tune this process. creating dungeons, tuning them, tuning the classes, etc. they ALWAYS drop the ball and they NEVER make the appropriate adjustments to truly balance anything. whatever is overpowered in this test, will be overpowered in the expansion for at least 2 seasons. you're looking at their finished product. i promise you. and as a tank player, i can honestly say im done with blizzard if they dont change coarse.
get rid of tyrannical and fortified. combine them. make EVERYTHING go up 10% per key. the bi-weekly split is annoying and just makes players see things as an "easy week" or a "hard week". just stop it.
have the vault drops prioritize tier for M+ players. im a retired raider, pushed top content and even had some server first kills back in the good ole days. main tank raider from BC to Cata, with a little bit of Legion too. the main reason i even play M+ is because i dont want to commit to a raid schedule and have 10+ other people depending on me to show up. not to mention it feels like an obligation anymore and i have too much real life stuff going on. so why is tier so heavily bogarted for m+ rewards? ive seen people get lucky and get 4pc by the 2nd week and they played less time than i did. and in S4 of DF i didnt get a single piece by week 2. so i quit. im not grinding through the same content i already conquered to beg for a tier set i already had. GIVE IT TO ME. idk. thats just the first complaints i have off the top of my head. game isnt fun.
"Not that bad."
- beta testers about afflicted and incorporeal
There is SO MUCH going on at the start of an expansion, i don't feel the need to get a phd in trash mobs. Keep it simple in S1.
Why can’t they just remove all affixes and allow people to see how high keys can really go? Why do we need them ffs especially the annoying ones. Adjust mechanics not silly game mode affixes
I would definitely love to try out a season with no affixes to see how it goes. I understand the argument of wanting to switch things up from week to week, but I'm curious how true that actually is. Imo if you just had a couple biweekly affixes you rotated between that might be enough to satisfy that, b ut would be cool to try and see.
Make this game hard again, so you can´t pull 10+ mobs at the same time and build the m+ content around that.
Utility > AOE damage
RP in dungeons makes me just not wanna run them.
Amen. I'm good with short bits here and there, but having to lose multiple minutes mid dungeon just feels terrible.
TBH i dont like big pulls as tank, its not about time, mechanict etc just about immersion. If i want pull 20 monsters at once and burst them down im gonna play D4 or other H&S, for more RPG oriented games i prefer fight againt grups of mobs at onece... I dont buy arguments like "AoE go brrrr"...
That's totally fair, I think when you're doing big pulls a lot of the time there's way more pressure on the tank as well relative to other roles so maybe thats why tanks feel a bit differently compared to dps players hahaha
I would assume thats a big time minority opinion. Be it fair, most people have more fun crushing big pulls myself included. But then again my opinion isnt that valid, i only do m+ for gear for raid so we can keep the guild in the top 100 CE spot then i stop. 😂
@@wowsew What a lot of people forget about though is that big pulls like we have in DF S4 enables certain specs more than other, which then gives us this stupid hard-locked meta of casters + aug that we've had since S2, which mind you, is very frustrating and negative for the pug environment, and is something I see a lot of people complain about. Don't get me wrong, I like big pulls too, but as a melee player who mainly pugs and has done so in DF, it has not been fun fighting for spots in groups against superior specs. If smaller pulls can somehow get us away from how the meta has been almost the entirety of DF, then that is a sacrifice I'm personally happy to make.
There is always going to be a meta, yes, but for it to be this much better than the rest of the specs in the game is not healthy at all in the long run. It either gives you two choices, be miserable as a pug or give in to fotm.
And I truly wish that this only applied to higher keys, but anyone who says this is in big denial, because players literally sit around asking for "spriest/aug/mage" in like +10's right now, it's absolutely ridiculous.
I agree I feel the same way as a tank and dps.
@@imshloodoo1 I don't think that is the case. Some specs get excluded through big pulls (that is true) but that is a minority and that can be addressed through tuning. There will always be a need for AoE, Priority and ST no matter what pulls there are and they can balance that. If you look back, a lot of the big pull dungeons were present in S1 and did not cause the same type of meta. The current meta is from my PoV caused by 1) a reduction of mandatory kicks, but an increase of necessary stops paired with the swiss army knife of a toolkit that they gifted VDH 2) the introduction of Aug and the added survivability it provides paired with lenient dungeon timers and 3) the absolute dominance of shadow priest, that do crazy AoE, priority and ST dmg particularly if played around their CDs. Mage could have been warlock and Rdruid could have been HPal (if they were still alive) but not much more was even reasonable given that. They just need to address these 3 things and the meta might be back what it was in S1.
Affixes: total miss on Blizzards side. Also Why are dungeons still so long - make 'em 25-30min and not 35+ !! I do like those mega dungeons - because I know what I get into and I can only do this once a week.
And who the hell thought 'Let's bring Shadowlands back - its gonna be great' ..... Bringing back dungeons from the most hated WoW Expansion is a bold move, with Boralus there are 3 dungeons at the star that I cannot stand. I am not setting afoot in Mists to play that stupid 2nd boss again, or have 2 dps be afk on a mission in Necrotic Wake. And *F* - just *F* the last boss in Siege
Its just a DH Tank world, if you are not a DH tank then you are not doing 15+. Unless your the best monk or druid tank in the world...
Yeah tank tuning through dragonflight has definitely been rough (for M+ anyways), hoping to see them be a bit more active in TWW.
It is kinda shitty.
You’re actually becoming out of touch.
There’s too much happening in dungeons based off your video and you still want to remove double sigils?
If they aren’t removing problematic affixes and packs are over complicated with a full group of melee quicks, removing more utility in classes is your idea?
There’s no logic in your words.
When only 1 spec in the game can do a certain thing it's extremely unhealthy and leads to stale metas that players (except maybe some people that main the meta spec to being with) tend to dislike, see augmentation evoker. Like I said in the video, I'd also like them to remove abilities from dungeon mobs to make having so many stops unnecessary, in which case you'd need to remove stops probably across the board not just from VDH, they're just the clear outlier and easy example.
yet another video where the focus is entirely on things that dont matter. the new affixes shouldnt even be on the discussion table yet. until they remove the +7 bucket of affixes completely, there is no point in even discussing the rest of the game.
You can (and should) give feedback on multiple areas whenever possible, especially when the level 7 bucket isn't the only issue currently in keys. But also I spent like 5minutes in this video talking about exclusively that as well as fixes outside of just "remove them all" lmao.
Author of this video wants everything to be super easy, so everyone is done with climb in a month 😆
Nah
Author of this comment doesn't really understand the message in the video, but he comments to get a reaction
@@ThomasBachler01not true. Imo harder= better always. But the new type of DMG affixes are tradh
@@Raddo94 ok, fair. But there is a difference between dodging mechanics and stuff like frontals and packs having so many kickable/stoppable abilities that it requires certain spec/classes and coordinated gameplay to not get destroyed. You can create a lot of difficulty even with fewer abilities and they shouldn't compensate bad quality with quantity
if they are going to keep these affixes, tyrannical and fortified has to go. Tank damage is not that big of a deal if these affixes arent getting buffed by fortified. Casts of mobs is a big problem. Focused is just going to be a dead week if they keep everything like it is.
Yeah, I'm willing to give these new affixes a season to see how they go, but the synergy they have with some of the +7 bucket as well as Fort needs to be removed imo.
@@Tactyks Exactly, I dont even want to imagine how the casts going to be overpowered with fortified, bolstering and some focused or other new affix. That combination is just silly and I have no idea how they did not think about this, unless they are already planning on removing fortified and most of the new affixes seems like a replacement for it.
Hopefully Blizzard will listen to feedback.
You and me both!
They won't