As a beginner, I 100% agree with you. This is very helpful in university environments where they focus more on theory than practical stuff, so students get lost easily with so many configuration files and other nonsense. I like to get a project up and running quickly and dive into the documentation whenever I need to disable something I don't like. I don't understand the problem of having a template for beginners and another for an empty project.
I'm actually glad swagger is off by default since it can be cumbersome to handle and it has a learning curve as well. Http files have this learning curve too, but at least they're language agnostic and can be version controlled. They also remove the need for dependencies such as postman. I'm a fan.
You are very much correct. This is more of a bug that has somehow passed qa on their end. I hope this video will get a lot of traffic so that the .net dev team will fix this!
@@edandersen I watched a ASP community stand-up (all about Open API with Safia and Jon Galloway) a few months ago and they are moving away from swagger. You are right its intentional.
I mean you have the HTTP file, seems ok to me. I am always using something like Insomnia or Postman, so I do not see so much value in Swagger. I always turned off the opening of browser because it is so annoying that a new window pops-up every time i run my API. In my humble opinion I do not see it as a bad thing that the swagger is removed. Also the Open API spec is still being generated so you can feed it to whatever you want. What is the issue?
I'm absolutely fine with this direction. I only ever enabled swagger UI in dev configuration to produce the swagger doc for the front-end team to have a reference if they didn't want to hunt down the user story tickets that documented it, and it has never been fully OpenApi compatible (nor is the current MS implementation for the record). The browser popping open every time I hit run was an annoyance, not an advantage.
I totally agree with you, they are making a complete mistake by eliminating swagger and the user experience is very bad, to say the least. I don't know who came up with these brilliant ideas.
I won’t shed a tear. Swagger’s UI was a nightmare. I’ve seen a powerful computer struggling just because the UI was prettyprinting JSON. If you’re worrying about beginners that’s a good reason for worrying about.
Personally, I have never used that Swagger UI, so this does not affect me. As a matter of fact, I change my projects to *NOT* spin up that Swagger UI - so it will probably save me time. I use .http files with Rider to save various scenarios for API calls I want to test. For longer-term development, this is easier as I can quickly go back and have a wide variety of scenarios ready to execute against my API with a single keypress. Also, these .http files are saved with the source code in Git, making it available to anyone on the team. That said, I can see that some people will dislike this change and find it a step backwards. A question, though: How often do you spin up new Web API projects where this will affect you? Or is your concern more for beginners in that they'll be stuck and not know how to test their API calls?
I think you miss the point of this replacement (performance and it will support AOT which is great, swashbuckle rely too much on reflection which is not compatible with AOT) BUT you're RIGHT this template and this approach sucks for beginners !
@@edandersen Yes, yes it was. Trying to force all desktop users to use an OS specifically targeted at mobile/touch was way "ahead of its time" -- and one of the worst decisions in MS history. A group of people all sat around and agreed that removing the iconic Start button was a "good idea". Insanity.
I completely agree with you, this step will make beginners first impression of .NET worse. Students already run away from learning and using .NET and associated technologies because of it convoluted framework setup and step like these will discourage them more.
Some of the people in the comment section is missing the point. This makes things difficult for a ""Beginner" . It's easy for a experienced developer to turn it of if they hate it, than for a inexperienced person turn it on. I started .NET about an year ago and you have no idea how much that swagger UI helped me.
@@edandersen Maybe MS does not have the same view.. I would expect Java, Go & Rust to be C# direct competition, and they do not have similar OOB experiences.
Having the browser open every time you run or do dotnet watch is very annoying. This is a classic .NET dev problem, look at other ecosystems. Most devs I encounter know what a HTTP file is.
Their product management team is completely out of touch with the community and it has shown multiple times (hot reload flashbacks), I am not entirely sure whether it's just genuine incompetent blunders or actual business-oriented decisions that they're doing their best to sweep under the rug
I wouldn't say they are completely out of touch, they do do good stuff. However my favourite is the tooltip that still says "(Swagger)". Thanks for the comment!
@@edandersen I mean, in the old days, if you wanted to do anything on a computer you would have to be a "hacker" right from the start. And that was all the fun. Now everybody focuses on the "beginners". Most of tutorials on youtube start from scratch and I have to scroll 3h into a video to get any valuable information. I think there should be more focus on presenting advanced topics. Beginners are well taken care of I think.
@@watherby29 there is no point in teaching advanced topics on here as the audience is too small. Maybe Nick Chapsas has some stuff I don't know. My concern is around adoption. If we don't get new projects being started in .net it will eventually disappear.
Microsoft making the user experience worse, and refusing to back Open Source initiatives? That is _sooo_ M$. There is a reason I don't trust them. That has its origin in the way M$ treated users and companies depending on it in the nineties and naughts. It is also the reason why I haven't learned C#. For the last 10 years or so, it looked like M$ had changed its ways. But big money and lots of power will still corrupt any company.
@@edandersen Sure, this particular example is recent. But I fully expect them to make us pay for using VS, either by licensing it at some point, or by using it as a data mining tool. As in how they are using GitHUB to train their AI's.
Those templates are intended for beginners and this change makes their first impression of .NET worse.
that's the point I'm trying to make. thanks!
I'm completely agree! I come from python and I see all these template and say wtf is all of this!!
As a beginner, I 100% agree with you. This is very helpful in university environments where they focus more on theory than practical stuff, so students get lost easily with so many configuration files and other nonsense. I like to get a project up and running quickly and dive into the documentation whenever I need to disable something I don't like. I don't understand the problem of having a template for beginners and another for an empty project.
4:37 "out of the box" experience +1000 🚀🚀🚀🚀
I'm actually glad swagger is off by default since it can be cumbersome to handle and it has a learning curve as well. Http files have this learning curve too, but at least they're language agnostic and can be version controlled. They also remove the need for dependencies such as postman. I'm a fan.
why doesn't the http file automatically update as you add controller actions? am I missing something?
@@edandersen Don't think you're missing something. I can imagine the auto generation feature will come to http files eventually
I'm still searching for the problem here
You are very much correct.
This is more of a bug that has somehow passed qa on their end.
I hope this video will get a lot of traffic so that the .net dev team will fix this!
I think its totally deliberate sadly.
@@edandersen I watched a ASP community stand-up (all about Open API with Safia and Jon Galloway) a few months ago and they are moving away from swagger. You are right its intentional.
I mean you have the HTTP file, seems ok to me. I am always using something like Insomnia or Postman, so I do not see so much value in Swagger. I always turned off the opening of browser because it is so annoying that a new window pops-up every time i run my API. In my humble opinion I do not see it as a bad thing that the swagger is removed. Also the Open API spec is still being generated so you can feed it to whatever you want. What is the issue?
how do you get the http file to automatically update? am I missing something?
Silly
This is acceptable to a certain extent. What isnt acceptable is the .Net maui... That's a mess
I loved Xamarin Forms but yeah I'd agree
@@edandersen But Maui Hybrid apps are very interesting. Xamarin was a mess. MAUI is a mess. But MAUI as a wrapper is a great concept.
@@ilove2learn783 yeah its got some potential
I'm absolutely fine with this direction. I only ever enabled swagger UI in dev configuration to produce the swagger doc for the front-end team to have a reference if they didn't want to hunt down the user story tickets that documented it, and it has never been fully OpenApi compatible (nor is the current MS implementation for the record).
The browser popping open every time I hit run was an annoyance, not an advantage.
I'm more concerned about the getting started experience and the corresponding impact on adoption. Thanks for the comment!
I completely agree with you
I totally agree with you, they are making a complete mistake by eliminating swagger and the user experience is very bad, to say the least. I don't know who came up with these brilliant ideas.
there must be a reason. thanks for the comment!
I pushed like button 5 times, monitor exploded
Legend!
I have 0 issues with this. In fact, my personal preference is that I always start from a completely empty project anyway.
yep that's great. empty project template remains. my concern is for beginners.
My concern about beginners is having them far enough from the projects I’m involved in, tbh.
@@ianmarteens yeah who cares about the next generation
@@edandersen , that’s a textbook God complex :)
@@ianmarteens it was sarcasm, I actually care
I won’t shed a tear. Swagger’s UI was a nightmare. I’ve seen a powerful computer struggling just because the UI was prettyprinting JSON. If you’re worrying about beginners that’s a good reason for worrying about.
never had an issue with the swagger UI, always got a lot of value out of it. thanks for the comment!
I think the developers took wrong branch and pushed this changes
Love your videos mate!
Please do one about FastEndpoints.
Can i call it "pulling a fast one"? Cheers!
@@edandersen LOL yeah!!! Sounds good 🤣
Django: full-fledged admin panel
.NET: let's remove the default api documentation
it's mad isn't it
Personally, I have never used that Swagger UI, so this does not affect me. As a matter of fact, I change my projects to *NOT* spin up that Swagger UI - so it will probably save me time. I use .http files with Rider to save various scenarios for API calls I want to test. For longer-term development, this is easier as I can quickly go back and have a wide variety of scenarios ready to execute against my API with a single keypress. Also, these .http files are saved with the source code in Git, making it available to anyone on the team.
That said, I can see that some people will dislike this change and find it a step backwards. A question, though: How often do you spin up new Web API projects where this will affect you? Or is your concern more for beginners in that they'll be stuck and not know how to test their API calls?
My concern is that out of the box experience. If a beginner is weighing up .NET vs something else, it needs to be good.
Thanks for the comment!
The swagger codebase is kind of a mess though. I can kind of understand if the .NET team wants to avoid getting dragged into that.
that's fair but it's not as if the biggest company in the world doesn't have the resources to either fix it or build an alternative
I think you miss the point of this replacement (performance and it will support AOT which is great, swashbuckle rely too much on reflection which is not compatible with AOT) BUT you're RIGHT this template and this approach sucks for beginners !
Thanks for the comment :-) I don't think supporting AOT is worth losing the functionality tbh. But what do I know?
I guess the philosophy is that by making things harder it will attract more standard nerds to their platform.
makes sense
Maybe the Windows 8 Team came out of retirement for .Net 9.
Windows 8 was ahead of its time, this isn't. Thanks for the comment!
@@edandersen Yes, yes it was. Trying to force all desktop users to use an OS specifically targeted at mobile/touch was way "ahead of its time" -- and one of the worst decisions in MS history. A group of people all sat around and agreed that removing the iconic Start button was a "good idea". Insanity.
@@keyser456 I mean't the underlying tech, the UI stuff was not good. 8.1 was pretty decent.
but it's preview mode.. so things will change when it's production ready (even though not lts)
it won't change
@@edandersen i wouldn't be fully sure about that. considering the habbits of MSFT since past year or so.. with their changes (in rapid successions)
It’s only a template change. You can certainly create your own templates
Not sure I will
I completely agree with you, this step will make beginners first impression of .NET worse. Students already run away from learning and using .NET and associated technologies because of it convoluted framework setup and step like these will discourage them more.
i think they are deliberately making the MVC and web API projects worse to steer people towards the stuff they want them to use (Blazor)
@@edandersen unfortunately they have made a bigger mess there with so many deployment options confusing the beginners more.
@@TechieRathore Yeah its not easy these days
100% AGREE!!
good point
Some of the people in the comment section is missing the point. This makes things difficult for a ""Beginner" . It's easy for a experienced developer to turn it of if they hate it, than for a inexperienced person turn it on. I started .NET about an year ago and you have no idea how much that swagger UI helped me.
Bingo
and without beginners coming into the ecosystem it will eventually die
I'm just starting to study ASP .NET should I just wait for the .NET 9?
No, start with .net 8 now, it's good
Start now. There are always changes coming so that shouldn't stop you from starting. .NET 9 will be far from the last version we see.
Agreed
something is wrong
it's me
Who are the competitors? Cause.. that would determine the direction.
For new projects Laravel, Rails, Next.js etc etc. All focus on out of the box experience
@@edandersen Maybe MS does not have the same view.. I would expect Java, Go & Rust to be C# direct competition, and they do not have similar OOB experiences.
Do you honestly care that much about this?
I care far too much
This is so sad. We can make the facepalm emoji. What else can we do to influence "the machine" that this is a bad idea?
I don't know, other than beg on UA-cam I'm out of ideas. Thanks for the comment!
No one is stopping you from adding swashbuckle in. It's just not added by default anymore which i think is a good thing.
Having the browser open every time you run or do dotnet watch is very annoying. This is a classic .NET dev problem, look at other ecosystems. Most devs I encounter know what a HTTP file is.
I dunno most frontend frameworks I've used launch the browser by default
It is actually good
yeah more of the same
Their product management team is completely out of touch with the community and it has shown multiple times (hot reload flashbacks), I am not entirely sure whether it's just genuine incompetent blunders or actual business-oriented decisions that they're doing their best to sweep under the rug
I wouldn't say they are completely out of touch, they do do good stuff. However my favourite is the tooltip that still says "(Swagger)". Thanks for the comment!
who cares about beginners, life does not have to be easy
bleak
@@edandersen I mean, in the old days, if you wanted to do anything on a computer you would have to be a "hacker" right from the start. And that was all the fun. Now everybody focuses on the "beginners". Most of tutorials on youtube start from scratch and I have to scroll 3h into a video to get any valuable information. I think there should be more focus on presenting advanced topics. Beginners are well taken care of I think.
@@watherby29 there is no point in teaching advanced topics on here as the audience is too small. Maybe Nick Chapsas has some stuff I don't know.
My concern is around adoption. If we don't get new projects being started in .net it will eventually disappear.
Microsoft making the user experience worse, and refusing to back Open Source initiatives? That is _sooo_ M$.
There is a reason I don't trust them. That has its origin in the way M$ treated users and companies depending on it in the nineties and naughts. It is also the reason why I haven't learned C#. For the last 10 years or so, it looked like M$ had changed its ways. But big money and lots of power will still corrupt any company.
I think it's more recent. the more I dig into it the more I suspect it's a way of tying this new http file thing to visual studio licenses.
@@edandersen Sure, this particular example is recent.
But I fully expect them to make us pay for using VS, either by licensing it at some point, or by using it as a data mining tool. As in how they are using GitHUB to train their AI's.
@@TheEvertw most companies pay for VS already
Dumb decision from ms.
they've made worse
@@edandersen Like Windows 8
thank you.