Hoarding Behavior/Disorder & ADHD - Part 1: How often are they seen together?
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2023
- Throughout much of its 250 year history, little if any mention has been made of ADHD being associated with Hoarding Disorder (HD). But starting 10-12 years ago, studies began to be reported of some linkage between ADHD in those with HD and of HD among people with ADHD. This is surprising given that HD has often been considered a variant of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) and is so classified in DSM-5, our diagnostic manual. The available evidence suggests that HD has a far more stronger linkage to ADHD than it does to OCD, calling into question the DSM5 classification of HD with OCD. it also finds that the best predictor of HD is the degree of inattention and executive dysfunction (self-regulation). This lecture reviews some of the more recent studies on this relationship as well as the limited research on the role of medications and other therapies in its management.
Reference and Review:
Who really hoards? Hoarding symptoms in adults with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and healthy controls
G Grassi, C Moradei, C Cecchelli, M van Ameringen - Journal of Psychiatric Research, 2023.
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
What I found with my clients is that many of them use things as a bridge to their memories. "This is the dress I wore the day I met my husband".
As people with ADHD tend to forget so much, it is the things that hold memories.
Not necessarily, those "memory items" are just in the range as for everyone else who just likes to keep some items.
Plus we have (at least i) a brilliant memory.
@@user-zt4zr7eg6z I have a terrible memory!
@@user-zt4zr7eg6zyou might have a brilliant memory, but memory issues have been documented in the general population of adhd
@@user-zt4zr7eg6z Lucky for you!
@@user-zt4zr7eg6z and not necessarily, but for a LOT of us!
Anyone exploring my house would probably think I'm a hoarder. But almost everything I buy is for a specific project that I'm keen to get started on. However, by the time the things arrive, my head is onto another project, or I start the project but it doesn't get finished. So I would say that my hoard/stock of useful stuff that clutters up the house, is directly related to my executive function problems. Everything I have does have a potential use, and if/when I get a diagnosis and medication, I think there's a good chance that I'll be able to get on with those projects and use up my stock/hoard.
Same but this is with parts for my car and my truck. I have really old vehicles and so i keep extra headlights, engine parts and even an extra engine i picked up for free
Yup
Dreaming,... I have the diagnosis, the pills AND the clutter / hoard. Sigh.
I think that an ADHD Coach might be able to assist with hoarding and the associated executive function challenges. I have found them to be a great help with executive function (or lack thereof).
Ah so that’s the ADHD follow through problem after the stimulation of starting a new project. Do you think there is any addictive quality in the starting part?
This is exactly like my house, and the way I feel. Like you, I'm looking forward to when I can get some medication and actually get on with my life, instead if living a life of projects started but not been able to carry on with.
Well that makes so much sense to me, regarding EF :
-It provides almost instant gratification (moreover when you forgot what you bought)
-It's a way to be sure to keep the past in the space (externalizing NVWM)
-It's not specifically about having a cluttered space but I know that when I can't inhibit newest thoughts, I don't finish what I was currently doing so I stack things on piles.
-I have myopa for the future, and I don't foresee where I should put these things. There is not a space defined in my mind when I buy, I could buy a sofa, and then discover I don't know where to put it.
Getting rid of those things would be stressful, as they all have a strong emotional connection with me. That's why Marie Kondo method doesn't make sense to me/
Ah, the “But they all spark joy in some way” factor. Relatable!
I have adhd and have had minor issues with hoarding. But a major house fire in my mid twenties and a deep desire to not be a hoarder and to not appear as such to guests in my house has mostly put a stop to that.
But my mother with severe adhd has always had major hoarding issues that caused lots of problems and public embaressment for our family. My mothers side of the family is mostly characterized by this adhd/hoarding issues. It really is a massive player for people on my mothers side of family and completely absent on my fathers side of the family.
I have been thinking there was a major connection between adhd and hoarding as for me the decision making process during house cleaning sessions has always caused major mental anguish. The struggle to decide what to get rid of (and the how and where to get rid of something) and the emotional attachments to those items have caused major issues.
The shear decision fatigue during cleaning seems to be a major issue.
As a family we have had to have numerous interventions with multiple family members over this issues.. all on my mothers side of the family. And my mothers parents have been the worst of all family members for hoarding and not being organized and tidy etc. But also all children from my maternal side grandparents all express the major disorganization and hoarding habits and all the subsequent generations seems to express it to varying degrees. Again only on my mothers side of the family and those of us descending from members of this family.
Have the same thing going on except with both my parents. Not sure how much it extends on either side of the family but I know they have issues with organizing and hoarding. The backyard and his at-home workplace (upholsterer) looks like a complete junkyard. Not to mention the way he stores his belongings inside the house and organizes the mail and old medication. It’s just all over the place. My mom is no help either, and she gets the most anxious about throwing things away as opposed to my dad. He’s disorganized but my mom is attached to things which results in this chaotic environment of a home. I used to be very disorganized but have been trying every year to declutter and improve my organization systems
Relatable. I’ve joked for many years that my difficulties managing stuff was genetic, not learned behaviour given how both of my parents deal(t) with stuff and I only grew up with one of them. Interesting that it turns out to actually (most likely it seems) be genetic for real!
Decision fatigue is such a good phrase.
Hi Doc! Thanks for your excellent research as usual. I was in Italy this time last year, awesome! I am an adult female ADHDer, and a psychologist, with lots of issues around clutter and disorganization. I have always joked about myself and others being "borderline hoarders." No matter how much I clean up, I can never keep things tidy for more than a week or so. However, I don't really have a major problem throwing things out, nor do I save weird stuff, it seems to be more of an impulsive buying, accumulation and disorganization thing. I see this in many, many of us adult adhd-ers, very messy, very cluttered homes, life-long issues with this. So, not full criteria for hoarding disorder in most cases, but it is definitely a thing. Then again, maybe I'm in denial and I meet full criteria for HD, I'll have to check again! Thanks again!
It's probably a spectrum. I don't have hoarding like on TV. But I have a hard time parting with stuff and keep too much. Now that I know it can be part of adhd, I'm going to pay more attention and get rid of more that isn't helping me.
This is a really fascinating topic. I'm wondering how much it has to do with object permanence issues (for lack of a better term; I don't mean it in the sense of babies not realizing things they can't see still exist, but rather that we *forget* things exist). As @1966Svea says, we do use items as gateway to memories, but also, I frankly keep things out so I remember I have them *at all*. I know I'm not the only person who's bought things I already owned, either because I'd put it "somewhere safe" that I'd forgotten the location of, or because I literally forgot I had one. Then we stack something on top of it, and voila.
Every word of this rings true. Also I love that comment about a gateway to memories. It’s so true.
Better term: “working memory issues”
With regard to hoarding, yes, it's definitely an issue from a few angles, but more as a result than an intention.
1) Losing things. As is fairly typical I misplace a lot of things, and I end up replacing them, acquiring more stuff, increasing clutter, making it harder to find things, etc.
2) Forgetting I've acquired things, so I don't realise I'm duplicating possessions.
3) acquiring items for hobbies which I lose interest in.
4) feeling I should hang on to things "that could be useful later" and of course by the time they'd be useful are lost and then are replaced, cycle continues.
That is exactly me..and I’m not even ADHD..lol
Thank you! I didn’t know this could be associated with ADHD. I have trouble parting with things. It’s definitely an emotional issue. I force myself to donate/sell items I no longer need, but it’s not easy. Once the items are gone, no problem; it’s just getting to that point. But now that I know it’s possibly linked to my ADHD, I think I will manage it better. For me, knowledge is very helpful. I do appreciate the information you share.
I would not think of myself as a hoarder, but I have bills and everything scattered around because I need to either pay them or have them for paperwork in bankruptcy, and so on and so forth, and there are medical documents, and everything else and it's so hard to tell what is true trash and what has a purpose. I don't hold on to old items, boxes, newspapers, etc, and actually like getting rid of a lot of things, but I can never dent the "core" of my mess.
I call that core mess 'permafrost' I'll clean the surface stuff, but when it gets down to stuff that's harder to process, I can never dig into it.
I’m not a hoarder, but I feel like it’s something that lives out on the horizon. It’s really hard to stay clean + tidy and I collect. It’s difficult not to buy things I dont need. Being in a relationship and sharing space helped curb it, but living on my own has been harder. I have hired a cleaner every other week and I have deliberately tried to make my “style” minimalist- knowing I will never achieve it, but it helps me add a pause in before I make big purchases.
(Diagnosed adhd as an adult + medicated)
My mother's hoarding really soared after my step-dad died. She got to TV-show worthy levels.
I have some clients with hoarding disorder who have inattentive ADHD and have long thought there is a problem with motivation that perhaps Welbutrin or stimulants might help. Their SSRI’s do not seem effective. I’m happy to see more research revealing more of the neurological issues affecting the problem
Thank you for these videos. Since starting medication for ADHD my holding has significantly reduced. Seems like the buying was dopamine generating.
I have inattentive ADHD and medication has a negative effect on my other mental illnesses.
I definitely have hoarding tendencies. My closet is full of clothes because I keep buying them and never get around to donating the things I don't wear. One of my hobbies is actually collecting manga and I went pretty crazy with expanding it this year (about 200 volumes in a year). I also collect plushies and I tend to buy journals for no reason just because I like them. So, these studies are really insightful and I feel they align with my experiences! This was so fun to listen to!
Thank you for addressing this. I realized while working on my hoard (and clearing out my mother's) that ADHD was much more consistent with our issues. Splitting off hoarding disorder from OCD made sense to me because neither of us have other symptoms of OCD (I'm a little OCPD though). Our other symptoms created messes - disorganization, lack of motivation, impulse spending, having trouble conceptualizing what we can't see (working memory?), and being "dreamy." I grew up with my mother, hyperactive brother, underachieving sports-oriented brother (I suspect sports helped his ADHD), my mother (who also had anxiety and depression), and mom's mother, who taught us the mottos "It'll turn up somewhere" and "waste not want not." Having multiples of everything became a way of life for my mom and me. Grandma wasn't disorganized, but she seemed to understand her disorganized brood. My sports oriented brother married a neatnik (as did mom's sister), and the other developed a severe mental illness and became homeless. We had so much bad DNA that I didn't realize how "different" I was until having trouble in life as an adult. All of the girls in our family were super smart and were too lost in thought to annoy our teachers (but I was born in 1958, so a diagnosis was impossible anyway). I belong to a hoarding/clutter support group and I see ADHD so clearly in so many of the cries for help. I never see any OCD symptoms. Anxiety & depression, yes. (My most recent a-ha moment is that I think my depression came from OCPD and ADHD living together in my head. They don't get along well).
Anyway, yes, those of us with ADHD won't be collectors who buy strategically and display attractively. We self-medicate with "retail therapy" and then when we get home that high is gone and organizing the new stuff is.... ugh... where's my phone. I need to play that word game for 2 hours. (p.s. I knew that Concerta was working for me when I realized I hadn't misplaced anything since I started taking it, including my phone). It actually costs me less to order for pick-up at higher prices from Walmart or Meijer because I won't buy stuff I don't need, and won't omit things I do need. I have often gone to the store with a list and then not actually used the list.
oh, and ADHD and impulse eating leading to obesity. Can't give up the clothes that are 2-3 sizes too small because one day I'll prefer salad to ice cream.
... and my half-finished craft projects, piles of fabric, and diaries with one day written in them.
I definitely began masking my hoarding tendencies at a very young age. As a female who was misdiagnosed as having depressive disorder when I was younger and placed on anti depressants, I became a zombie and my hoarding behavior became a huge issue. I was able to use CBT skills to get by until I was formally diagnosed at 25 with ADHD. At that time my prescription medicine along with ADHD helped hoarding become a non issue.
No waaay, to think you were in my city last Saturday! I'm in love with your work and it has shaped so much the way I see myself and other fellow ADHDers. I hope Padova gave you a big welcome :)
As a psychologist who used to work with older adults, I saw people with hoarding that had accumulated over decades. Treatment success for hoarding with CBT is very low, so in the older adult service we generally did not try to treat people, rather seeing if social services could be involved to help with clearing and safety of the residence. Many of them were also cognitively impaired, and I remember reading that hoarding was associated with deficits in executive functioning. We certainly never thought about ADHD, but we didn't for anyone in that older adult service. In my work now with adults with ADHD I've seen frank hoarding disorder once, but also don't routinely ask about it. I find it intriguing how frequently the two actually go together, but I'm also not surprised.
Thank you very much. I can't find any links to the studies.
The city where I live in Sweden provides support for people with hoarding tendencies. One hour twice a week for as long as it takes. The person has to touch every single thing and decide whether to keep, through away or give away. The coaches (they work two together) take the things that should not be kept with them when they leave. The one getting the support decides how things should be done. There is no rules on how much that should be thrown out. And the one getting the support can stay with each item as long as needed and very well tell stories connected to it or try to feel and analise how to relate to it. Much clutter can be due to memories compensating the forgetfulness. It can also consist of endless amount of piles from failed attepnts to organising the home or other failed projects. Every collapae and long periods of revocery can leave a couple of piles behind. AND someone with CDS/SCT will have a hard time taking the different parts of the chaos in and create an order from it. The result of being given the space to touch, asses, and dicide can have a deep and profound effect on the one getting the support. The possibility of discernment can very well tangibly spill over to other areas of life: activities, people, food etc can be perceived in a much more nuuanced way, leading to decluttering those too. And also to slowly start to see order and clarity can give lead to moving the horizon in one's life. Experiencing and seeing things get in order gives hope for possibilities in life. And to have the possibility to take it slow and not get overwhelmed together with having the supportive - but often mostly silent -.presence - minimizes the risk for having to endure this becoming yet another failure.
To actually have touched and related to it all oneself and slowly experienced the change also leads to a smaller risk for new clutter to start growing.
It can also give a more clear and free mind. It can also have a holistic therapeutic effect in ways.almost no other actual therapy or coaching have. It can reduce stress and pain.
There can be so many other aspects to this but I guess this is just meant for short comments.
This is a kind and decent approach to helping people with the hoarding challenge.
I don’t think I have a hoarding disorder but I do have categories of items I find incredibly hard to get rid of.
Anything with sentimental value (even Christmas cards, all of them) I can’t bring myself to toss.
Anything that was given to me by someone else, even if I don’t actually have a use for it down the line, I struggle to get rid of. Feels disloyal and like I don’t love the person enough (cognitively I know this isn’t the case).
Things that need repaired. They’ll sit unrepaired for a long long time before I toss them, and even then it feels uncomfortable. I also don’t often repair them though.
Most of the time it seems tied to guilt, or some sort of weird anxiety about being rejected.
Congratulations on delivering your final public lecture, and how wonderful that you were able to combine it with your travel! As always, thank you for your contribution to the understanding of ADHD, and for continuing to share your knowledge and experience with the world.
This is very enlightening. Bravo on your last public lecture. You are helping so many people. And yes, CBT definitely helps although I have both OCD and ADHD, with family tendencies towards HD. Have been working on it for years now
First, I was surprised to see a video like this in my feed and you talking about it; I highly appreciate this and thanks for spreading the info and knowledge about these studies and all that stuff :)
Regarding the content of the video and the topic "Hoarding Disorder":
This is me with browser tabs. But also since I get overwhelmed due to the ADHD, don't look at all the stuff, don't finish all the stuff, still want to watch it and all that. Same with saved Reddit comments and TXT's on my PC with notes I never go back to. I genuinely think my ADHD makes my hoarding disorder in this regard worse. Not even switching between 4-5 browsers made it better, no browser extensions with restrictions helped etc.
I'm confident, though, that if I get and find the right meds, I might be able to finally go through tabs, moderate how many tabs and windows I have open, close them from time to time and all that other stuff. It's been driving me nuts for several years now.
I also have mild OCD tendencies, esp. health anxiety and food allergy anxiety and anxiety over conditions my family members could have (most sadly did come true, though, which only made it worse - I seem to usually know when smth is up, for better or worse).
In any case, I really hope it can get better. I'm glad it's not as bad with materialistic things anymore as it was when I was a kid, though (barely able to
throw anything away, esp. papers with insignificant drawings from me - like, really insignificant stuff, like just one pen stroke on the paper or smth) :')
But now, I have extreme digital clutter, so yeah D:
Hi, I live in Colombia and my 5 year old kid has been diagnosted with ADHD and Asperger as well... Turns out he collects every single plastic bottle he runs into (for recycling, he says haha) other times, he used them to build stuff and then he ends up destroying them every time he has a meltdown. But don't even think about asking to put any of those things in the trash, because he gets angry and claims he needs them all.
Thank you so much for the video Sir, 🤗
I tend to open 50+ of Tabs in my laptop without closing it, I have 20 to 30 pens in my bag 🎒... there's my much stuff on my table lying there for months untouched, I have brought multiple books 📚 a single subject without finishing even a single one, some untouched, my Computer Hard drive and Mobile Memory is all full of years of data collected that I haven't ever reviewed for years and are full,... and the list goes on....‼
Wow is that what that is? I do all of those things also. Especially the phone memory thing ...
Have you been spying on me?! I do all of those things, too.
Only 50+ tabs? 👀☺️
So many tabs. Thousands....
I believe it. I have a problem with getting rid of items. I really try to check myself and do a small purge every few months.
Jealous of the trip... been to the lakes, it is gorgeous there.
Another research insight of significant interest...
Can easily put hoarding in the same category as ADHD with the strong aversive emotional response to disposal (taking an unpleasant action), literally the emotions overrule the rational response, and would guess the worst sufferers also have additional pain from shame and distress from KNOWING they are unable to control their impulse.
Can feel it now, the aversive distress, and the mental effort required to make any decision is a key factor I would suggest.
And can also understand how obesity is a common subset for depressive sufferers seeing how eating is such a strong survival urge and hence highly dopaminergic.
Like the lovelorn eating a bowl of Ben& Jerry's... food fills the aching metaphorical hole.
Flashback to RBs talk years ago positing a student would benefit for a slow steady drip feed of a sugary drink to stay on task...
Literally also just today listening to Robert Sapolski reviewing how PTSD and other stress sufferers have a reduced window of action, a shrunken time horizon, able to only think of here and now... and arguably no stomach for a future plan they maybe can't think how to bring to reality, and fearful of future plans being derailed.
And how that in turn is very reminiscent of literally childish behaviour, the brain development expanding over developmental years to a wider and wider scope in time and space...
Must cut down on caffeine...
I have inattentive adhd, and I definitely exhibit hoarding behavior. Thank you for your work. It’s so informative and helpful as always.
This completely anecdotal, but since being diagnosed with inattentive type ADHD at 29, looking back I’ve found that my comorbidities have all centered around perceived control: OCD, trichotillomania, demotillomania, bulimia nervosa, hoarding disorder. I honestly think that these stem from a complete inability to form habits. I don’t have habits, I have compulsions and obsessions. It’s all or nothing. And I think a lot of other people with ADHD can relate to that. (Also just found out I have bipolar III/cyclothymia).
Wow, fascinating! I have more of an Inattentive presentation along with CDS. LIke my father, I have always noticed some tendencies to collect or hold onto too much.
I always attributed a large part of that from my father's influence of having grown up in the Great Depression era. The family joke, after he died, was finding bicycle parts from my oldest brother's bike, still in the basement [he would have been around age 50 if he had still been alive].
I always jokingly thought of myself as a "neat hoarder." I have to fight against clutter and I really despise clutter because it makes my ADHD worse...."Out of sight, out of mind!" Pantries and clothes closets are some of my more difficult areas. Clothes are expensive and my weight has been up and down over the years. I have come to a balance of not getting rid of everything, but also being more realistic with what I save. My pantry is another story. I forget I already purchased items I intended to use and end up not using them. Stuff builds up, gets buried. Eventually, I clean out....get rid of everything....but it starts all over, ha. I guess, there are worse things to collect.
I also identify with being "highly sensitive", with a strong appreciation for art and beauty. I keep a lot of sentimental objects around and have them placed just so, always with my own personal stories to go along with them. The objects sort of ground and comfort me, but it also creates more work [keeping everything dusted/cleaned].
Last, my forgetfulness plays a big part. I collect books, information and it is hard to get away from that, even with the advent of the internet. I like knowing I have info I am looking for right where I need it, when I want it. Hence, I have always been remembered at former workplaces as "the resource queen", lol.
It gets tiring, sometimes, always trying to strike a balance [if I take more in, I must put more out]. Once any bit of clutter builds up, it could tip me into overwhelm. Once those scales are off, I could become immobilized, so I fight hard not to get to that point. When I do start to fall into that, I have to really work on the "just 5 minutes....just 10 minutes" routine to help pull myself out of it! At almost 65 years of age, late diagnosis and very little recognition or support throughout my life, I had to find my own way to get by....
I find I respond best to only a minute dose of an SSRI and Vyvanse [in particular, so I sure hope Kaiser Medicare has the generic available for 2024!] in combination with Buproprion.
Thanks for this! Two questions if I may: what difference does the SSRI make on top of Vyvanse with Bupropion? And what is CDS (tried googling it but found nothing that seemed relevant here)?
Not a shock at all, in fact I thought this was actually part of the whole ADHD struggle. Most of my friends with ADHD have this issue. I am aware and working through things in my own time, and that is necessary because if someone other than those I trust gets involved I I know I’ll revert and cling to stuff and go even further backwards.
For myself a lot of the issue is twofold. One, I love to have lots of projects , and so things can look abandoned when in actuality they have a well defined purpose in the future.
Two , I have lived with my mom as a cost savings so my kids could have activities and go to a private school. But just like it was when I was a kid, my stuff is always being thrown away or moved. She just can’t help herself. Not slamming her it s just the reality and has been my whole life.
I go overboard in not doing that to my kids and that’s probably not healthy either. I genuinely hate waste though, and see no reason to throw out what can be used.
I started setting up stations so that my projects have a defined area and I love that . If I get interrupted from something it helps me not meltdown, I can just switch to another project.
The problem with that is we had to suddenly move because we had a sick family member and we had to caretake. Now I’m back in the middle of it.
I CAN let stuff go, I just need to do it myself., and I need to know it’s going somewhere to be used. So much so that I got a storage shed and frantically packed all my things in it so I could go through them box by box because I’m terrified someone is going to take it away while I’m traveling. I’m constantly stressed someone will push me and I’ll back down on my principles and just chuck things that are important to me. That’s a life pattern that I don’t want to repeat.
Ironically I work with really early startups and help organize their infrastructure and manage the organization of several departments. I’m good at it too. Personally though I’m a mess. It’s the perfectionism and absurdly high standards I set that throws constant failure in my face. I refuse to give up on getting it all under control though.
My mother has probable ADHD inattentive and has minor hoarding issues. I was wondering if it's related to dopamine seeking behaviour as she says it makes her feel good temporarily at least when she buys more things
Very sad it was your last lecture and i missed it to meet you in person. There is so much ignorance in adhd research that even getting a diagnosis might be hard. 😢
I didnt thought about hoarding + adhd. A bit affected myself. And if you get overwhelmed of course you might have trouble getting things even thrown away. We (the executive dysfunction ED community) hussles with those things regularly.
Very strong stimulants are the only fix thats really effective. I agree.
There are some "small fixes" but it would if at all just keep the problems in check.
ED makes it hard to even throw things away. Let alone touching and moving things - putting it in boxes or selling it again.
ADHS people without ED might get too much stuff. But they have a mechanism to donate ot give it away.
But if you have problems with give things away due to low income - of course things might get complicated and you end up having too much stuff.
Of course at some point: you just give up. But have the shopping habit of getting even more stuff.
Basically its just ADHD with ED. I agree.
I think autistic symptoms matter as well.
Anxiety to deal with stuff: what do others think if they knew they where mine.
Perfectionism + ocd: we go into extreme of aquiring every movie that might be relevant for us. And might end up having hundreds - but just watch maximum 1% of them over a period of lets say 10 yrs.
Finding things is also difficult: we start buying/ collecting twice.
Inability to repair a printer made me end up having four. And i didnt repaired one.
Of course i cant just throw them away: a printer is super important in adhd for all kind of important documents.
Your narrative through the research is so clear and easy to follow. Thank you again for the videos!!!! I really appreciate it.
I love learning about this disorder and it's even more fascinating when taken through the research by one of the leading experts.
I get interested in lots of things, I buy all the associated equipment for said activity and quickly lose that initial passion, but I can’t bear to get rid of the stuff, part of me still wants this new interest etc. plus I have lots of impulse buys… my wife would burn the lot but I cannot bear to let stuff go, I see what I could do with it if I could focus!
1. Throwing things away feels like such a waste, because often, it feels like the object has potential use or can be repurposed etc. Of course I rarely end up using them, and they just pile up. Sometimes, even if I can't think of a use, I'll just keep the thing just in case.
2. I like to keep random things as memorabilia. When things have memories associated with it, it feels kinda nasty to throw it away. Also I will really forget about that memory because throwing the object away is like throwing the key to the memory away.
3. I like collecting things. I don't know the reason but just collecting similar looking things and sorting them is very satisfying. I also like to organize and plan the space/container for items.
4. Impulsive purchases.
5. Just being very blind to my surroundings. I will continue to live without acknowledging the mess, until one random night I go on a cleaning spree like I am on a combo streak.
Wait what, last public lecture of your career?!? But I haven't gotten a chance to attend one!!
I’m not a hoarder! But I do acquire a lot of crap have it for a while and then end up throwing most of it away. Scrap metal, wood ect (I do welding and woodwork as a hobby)
I think a huge part is that being adhd im a yes man. When anyone asks I got this junk do you want any of it, my answer is yes. Even if I want to say no or know I have no use for it.
A combination of R.S.D, thinking I might find a use for it. not wanting to miss a opportunity ect.
I think another aspect is that adhd people tend to have a large number of hobby’s which each require a significant amount of space and organisation that they don’t have.
Dear Professor Barkley, more I dive into your well of ADHD multiverse, more disordered I feel, or maybe it is better to state it as "understood by myself on neurological basis". The Hoarding issue gives a great background to pile phenomenon so closely connected with ADHD.
All this knowledge you present here really extends my understanding of my limitations and inspires me to seek for remedies.
GREAT JOB, THANKS DOC!
Your reports are great ! Thank you for doing this .😊
🤣you have just pushed my adhd dopamine button !… have a good evening . Thanks again for sharing your wisdom in such a fun way
Ohh.. you also wanted suggestions to "stop it". We need to stop keeping "in case of" items. We need to realise that we can borrow - and help others by giving away. And will never get around to doing that clock. 🙂
A UA-cam channel called "A To Zen" helped me with my hoarding problems a lot. I believe she has ADHDZ as well.
The hoarding shows made me feel bad and didn't help one single bit.
I agree those shows are toxic. At least to me they are. They are all drama and shock value.
Damn shame, i wish i could meet you and thank you in person for changing my life. I finally understood what was wrong with me when i saw one of your videos then i read your book. Your a saint! Thank you for all your work. ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I definitely have trouble getting rid of garbage. Like packing, i always think the object might have some use in the future. There definitely is some connection. It is extremely hard to part away with things.
oh no, I feel like I'm about to get called out for my own hoarding tendencies 😬 but I guess I could use a good talking to. For motivation.
There is something to say about this hoarding disorder. I just know that when I throw something out, I need it the week after. I have periods where I want to clean and order parts of my house. They don’t last very long 😂🤣 honestly, I think it’s a quick fix for my dopamine deficiency.
my grandfather was a major hoarder. Grew up in Depression, lived by "waste not, want not". His cupboards were filled with exploding tins of Australian WW2 bully beef and beans, which turned his wife completely from enabler to inhibitor. There were tonnes of old TVs and radios (was a tv repairman), everything was a "project". Sure there was some financial worth to his hoard of junkmail, newspapers, long superceded vintage 1950's-1960's b&w tv's and valve-amp record-radio credenzas but it was not the value of his under insurance if (both were smokers) a careless butt lit it up like arson accelerant. Go burn year old dry newspaper somewhere safe just to prove a point- it doesn't just lazily alight, it is incandescent and nearly flashes.
A house with a rat's nest of junk is not a valuable treasure hoard- it is a death trap waiting to happen.
Imagine how much toxic smoke billowing out, incapacitating you and your kids before they can work out what's what.
Well a house fire did destroy grandad's house, they went from living comfortably to poverty due to his penny pinching and under insuring. Luckily all survived miraculously no injuries, but all the 4 kids were screwed up, of 4, 3 are twice divorced with awful relationships with their kids, only my mother still married and functional relationship with kids, but banned from his hoarding by us his kids and her husband.
We've heard it all: it's her money, her right blah blah blah; but it's all an excuse to hoard and most importantly family comes first, not Smaug's lost treasure trove. Any family court will happily rule that in every separation and divorce and judgement to liquidate the hyper-rare, hyper-valuable hoard soon turns out as a very nasty reality slap that thousands of hours and dollars were all for naught. The hoard was not an "investment" it was an "intoxicant", the alcoholic's empty bottles of shame. A hundred one dollar treasures still ads up to sweet fanny adams in ashes, or as 100 crap.
Please hoarders- own your illness, seek help. You have a cancerlike illness, and it often does end in a death (tragically often a child or grandchild).
Is your hoard worth more than your wife, child or grandchild? Nope- so it and your hoarding need help.
yes...but are you diagnosed with adhd?or your mother? This is about how hoarding relates to adhd. The majority of hoarding disorder stems from trauma of some kind.
I don't know if I'm a harder, but I do have too much stuff. My best bet is to talk myself out of something before I even take it home.
That trip sounds like it was amazing! If I could share some of my travel experiences and photos with you id love to !
Another way of getting around piles of clutter is having a house cleaner come in and directing their efforts to what builds up on a regular basis. Even once a month would be better than not at all. More useful than paying a cbt therapist in my view
Thanks Dr Barkley. This makes a lot of sense - especially when you think about how it's common for people with ADHD to live with piles around their home or office. Personally, I leave things out somewhere visible so I won't forget about them or the task they are associated with. The problem is I'm slow at getting things done. I struggle to make decisions, so the next thing that comes along gets left out somewhere I can see too. Pretty soon the place is cluttered and I can't find things I know I own. After 3 days of searching and frustration, I go and buy another *thing* to do the job. Now there are two of everything. The clutter turns into a monster and takes over the house.
Even sadder is that my children copy my behaviour. 😢
Makes sense to me. I already thought there was a known link. Personally, I cannot watch those hoarder shows, because can feel their emotions. I struggle with hoarding. I keep things that have a personal meaning, it seems everything has a meaning. I have decision paralysis when I try to clean out my stuff. When I decide to get rid of something, I have to do it in a perfect way. Resell it, donate it, recycle it properly. All these add up and the stuff is still there.
Once I started to suspect I had adhd, and learning about it, I realized my mother likely had it too. And hoarding ruined the last decade of her life. Its one of my biggest fears, that I'll do that.
I Dr Barkley, I can’t express how much a appreciate your work and Chanel. Your sincerity and frankness of the issue with adhd has helped me so much in my struggles, I feel heard by you.
I’d love to know if there is a link to pain and adhd, my muscles and joints hurt all the time, sometimes cripplingly. Coffee makes it worse I think, I am medicated on Dex but I had pain before that, muscle tightness is the issue I think. Cannabis helps but I don’t like using cannabis as it effect other parts of my life negatively.
Yeah. On the outside I probably look like a hoarder. However, it’s either for forgotten hobbies or projects. It’s also a case of I need to see it or it disappears. So I don’t like to keep things in cupboards or any type of storage. Sorry to hear you’re giving your last public lecture but glad you’re taking time to rest.
Edit: I think the reason why I don’t classify myself as a hoarder is because I am happy to throw things out (when I get the dopamine to clear out the build up). I just see it as part of my adhd tax 😂😅
WOW... I know my shopping is the dopamine.
I had wondered if issue with parting with things was somehow related...
I didn't dream it was possibly a co-morbidity...
I don't feel quite as defective now... but, as many around me don't understand the ADHD... I'm not expecting them to understand this...
5:03 I would imagine that the depression is a product of the mess and clutter just as much as it is a factor leading to hoarding
Does anyone with ADHD ever feel like we need to our own separate banking system that understands our behaviors? A bank that helps us prepare for anticipated bills and at the same time rewards us for on time payments?
No diagnosis of anything, but I have always struggled to keep a tidy room and then house (recycling seems to be my biggest issue at the moment), and I have always been a terrible timekeeper and seem to procrastinate continously. Of course, I realise that identifying with these struggles doesn't mean I have either condition. I expect people suffering with the actual conditions have it ten times worse.
Is there a link to that recent lecture you gave? A video perhaps? Thanks!
Both will be on the Centro Archimede website eventually, with Italian translation of course besides my English version
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 thank you!
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 russ, I only found out I have ADHD this year, after 47 years of struggling. I have gained so much insight and found so much understanding shown in your lectures, it makes me sad to think that you, whom I see as the foremost expert on ADHD won’t be doing this anymore, I hope you enjoy your retirement and thank you sir.
So here is my "of course very valuable" thoughts on this - after only having heard about the first 10 minutes or so (who needs to hear it all to respond anyway?) - first of, "true hoarding" is one thing. But there is also, I believe, a great group of individuals with ADHD with "just" too much "shit". I mean, you can find the floors etc. but the house just isnt "living up" to comparable other adults and we don't allow unexpected guest's in. We need to tidy (alot) first. The shelves are crowded, boxes are overflowing and things are lost in corners. Why do we get here? I think some of it is "creativity" - we get a old clock - and think how we could paint it, fix it up and so on. We might start.. and get of track. Just like we did with the box we wanted to make to a castle for the children, and the jewlery we wanted to make, and then there was the time we were in to mandelas and bought art filtpens - not to mention the stacked up paintings and paint we have. And we are really planning to go back to that some day, so we can't get rid of it just yet. And with all those ideas rumvling around in the head, who has time to take broken things out of the house again? And we might use those as spareparts and do something cool with them.. one day. But getting things IN to the house is another matter. We get offered free stuff that other people apoarently don't have the imagination to use - but we have an idea. Gonna get around to that some day. And then the is an automatic time-demand for when we need to get a hold of certain items - like things for this amazing new hobby. 🙂🤔
I'm not even going to address this bc it's way too embarrassing. Let's just say: I'm afraid you're right on the money (as far as I'm concerned).
My latest impulse buy was a 1960s baby stroller, and if I remember rightly, I think I wanted it as a sleeping place for my cats. It's in storage now....😣
Exciting! In a similar vein, could there be a subtype of OCD that is not driven by anxiety, but by executive dysfunction? If your brain doesn't give you a feeling of being done with something, say switching off your stove, and you have trouble remembering whether you actually did it due to inattentiveness, you have to go back and do it again. I ask because I sometimes see patients with checking, but no thoughts about something terrible happening if they don't do it, who also don't respond to SSRI.
I ran an unscientific poll in adult ADHD patient support groups for Indians. 50 respondents with 85% saying they hoard.
Please share support group details
At this point, I have to laugh. Yes, almost hoarding/addiction to quick dopamine and daydreaming about usage of hoarded items is a lifelong thing for me.
i have adhd and i live a minimal life
Normal audio here
Interesting. My partner is not ADHD and he is more of a hoarder than I am, but it's still related to his lack of executive function, and perhaps also his CPTSD. We both have a lot of stuff and we live in a very small apartment, so it's hard.
I wonder whether “hoarding” includes collecting vast amounts of data as well as physical objects. I was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD two years ago at age 70. I do have collections of magazines, art supplies, and yarn, all of which are more than I can use, but they are all contained and don’t take up more space than is available. However, I am obsessive about information. When I was around 12 years old, I was interested in Arabian horses, and started creating an index card with description, pedigree, offspring, etc., for each horse in my Arab horse magazines. By the time I finally quit I had 13 boxes of 3x5 cards. The past 10+ years I’ve collected over 35,000 Pinterest pins. I keep deciding to quit Pinterest or delete most of my boards, but can’t bring myself to do it. Is this hoarding?
This is a more general remark: It seems that if one looks at different disorders, there are almost always high comorbidities with ADHD. A high share of autistics, of people with bipolar disorder or with borderline personality seem to also have ADHD. Is there also a reverse relationship where lots and lots of people with ADHD have other comorbidities? (I.e.: if one took a look at all people with ADHD (practically impossible, but maybe one can get close), would there be high comorbidities, or is it just true "in reverse"?) Afaik, some common comorbidities associated with ADHD are things like learning disorders and addiction, but are there other things, too?
It can be explained with the Forager Brain vs Farmer Brain theory.
And also by having many interests\potentials(Multipotentialite).
not really. If you're talking about going from hunter gatherer to community living...very different thing.As far as Hunter brains farmer brain, Japan has interesting studies showing only 1% of adhd population ...the majority having "warrior"genes...I.E from their Samurai class....yes ...the warriors.
How do we deal with hoarding
Is it just me or is there no sound to this video?
Works for me. Try changing the quality to a different resolution.
....looks at his TCG collection...
💜 you are such a gift to this world💜. I’m open to adoption if you are😂. Thank you so much for your research and dedication to ADHD. 🙏🏽
The worst thing about adhd is the stigma, 90% of the world doesn't think it is real 😡autism hasn't got the same stigma but the majority of people don't understand anything about them or the problems of the comorbid disorders accosiated with them (how can they understand) and if u add up adhd + autism = epidemic or a quarter of the world on the spectrum, it's easier for the powers to be to leave people struggling to even get diagnosed and no services. How many people are suffering? and if they could understand what is wrong with themselves (especially if they are undiagnosed)and could move on with there lives , how many people are kept down? Going round in circles, being impulsive with an addictive personality, depressed and misunderstood, stressed about there own futures a lot can't hold down jobs and even turn to crime because of this it's estimated 80%of people in jail could have it (canada screens people entering jail and have seen a reduction in people diagnosed with adhd entering the system and repeat offending)the sickening part of it that is if they invested the money in helping people understand about these problems it would pay for itself, and a lot of people could be living happier lives, there could be less crime, addiction etc
And the grief of living a life full of unrealised potential due to an undiagnosed condition.
Is it me or there is no audio?
It works for me. Try refreshing and changing the video quality - see if that helps.
It is working perfectly for me.
If it's cool shit....it's not hoarding......
Look Doc, are you travel agency or do you just like to brag. So what, you went to Italy. Can you help people struggling with the disorder of hoarding and possible ADHD connection? Or not? Capeche?
I am pretty sure it is not real hoarding - just an inability to get time to deal with things as one wants. I just noticed I basically agree with @EcoHamletsUK.