What you should know BEFORE you buy SOLAR PANELS!
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
- See the actual performance of used panels with cracked backsheets and snail trails. How to avoid these failures on your installation.
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Disclaimers:
This video is for information purposes only, and does not constitute professional advice. Solar systems can and do involve dangerous electrical connections. If you do not have experience with electrical wiring, please seek professional support.
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Referenced articles and papers:
IEE Journal of Photovoltaics snail trail paper: bit.ly/3Py7kR2
DuPont Global PV Reliability report: bit.ly/3OoSlY9
Back Sheet Repair Solutions: bit.ly/3PyEhNb
Rescue tape: bit.ly/3cp968i
LG solar business closing article (SolarReviews.com): bit.ly/3oqmE6s
Eletcrek article on LG: bit.ly/3zsl1vc
American manufacturing. Org article: bit.ly/3PN3JOS
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:20 Cracked Backsheet & Prevention
02:50 Snail Trails & Prevention
04:40 Max output Snail Trail and Cracked Backsheet
05:15 Cracked Backsheet Performance
06:20 Snail Trail Performance
07:30 Conclusions - Should you Buy? - Навчання та стиль
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YOU ALWAYS PROVIDE VERY INFORMATIVE VIDEOS. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK TO KEEP US WELL INFORMED!
I have been buying from San Tan since their opening years ago. I drive up, about a 3-hour round trip. I have had no issues with my snail trail panels. My biggest concern is heat. In southern Arizona, the last few weeks have been brutal. I recorded the top temperature of the panels when it was 112 air temp and sunny. The top of the panels was 136 f and the bottoms were 153 f. I have noticed just the slightest breeze will bring the output up some. I have for years been thinking of ways to cool them without using water unless it was a sealed, closed loop system. The fact that air and a breeze can help makes me lean towards a blowing air solution. I also don't want to make it where it uses more energy than it's worth. However, the fact that the panels can get so hot I also worry about the panel's service life being reduced, or premature failure altogether. Maybe do a video on heat effects on panels and possible solutions.
There are systems with integrated water cooling, but I imagine the cost delta would be hard to recover in performance gain.
I would just buy a few additional back up panels incase of failure. The cost to benifit would be much higher Than anything else Imo.
Look into some new info on vertically mounted panels. Since S AZ gets really hot, the reduced loss of efficiency from all that heat might be worthwhile. And especially if using bifacial panels, it might work out well.
Another great video Dave! Great comparison with excellent data!
Thanks!
great video backed with scientific research from papers. Many thanks, Dave
Thanks, glad it was helpful!
Awesome video. Thank you sir 🙏
Great info
Excellent info, many thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
great info....i am looking at my small array and see that this time of year the sun rises and goes down behind my panels, bi facial would be a good option for me.
You would see some benefit in that case. You can see about how much in my video focusing on Bifacial Solar panels here: ua-cam.com/video/1SXNjsSsmq0/v-deo.html
I think the bifacial panels are the way to go for any significant sized system. Those used snail trail panels would be good for a back up or small back up system or maybe for a portable solar generator with a handful of those panels to keep cost low.
My thoughts exactly! Exception being a roof install. On a dark roof, bifacials don't provide much gain and may not be worth the cost.
Seems you have proven what many knew a few years ago as Santan is quite popular.
SanTan has provided a way to keep used panels out of the landfill and give budget users an opportunity to engage in solar.
Another bundle of information. Thanks for your time. I was hoping to see the Bengals play next week oh well. If it would warm up I wouldn't be watching so much you tube. Maybe get a few panels. Do you get more money if the post is longer?
I don't get paid for comments, but it's good for channel interaction, and I do appreciate the feedback.... Thanks!
Thanks
Thanks Dave! I’m very interested in the solar water heater set up! I’ve been planning on setting up my old 40 gallon like what you have. If it works out well i would increase the holding tank size and preheat domestic hot water and possibly radiant floor heat. So i would be very interested in the mppt controller.
You could get more power using an MPPT for the water heater, but I just wired it directly to the thermostat to save cost. You just need to match the resistance with the ideal voltage and current of your string. Just use: V=I*R
Where V is the max power voltage, I is the max power current and R is the resistance of your heating element. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the closer you get the more power you will get.
THANKS! Okay, I want to keep it as simple as i can to start with so i will try that.
David Poz did a video with some illustration on matching elements with string loads. You can watch it here: ua-cam.com/video/kVaxAfXQPDU/v-deo.html
@@ProjectsWithDave does everyone dealing with solar have to be named Dave!?! I’m joking! You both are a wealth of information, and I really appreciate all that you both do. I have seen that video and it made me start really thinking about pv water heating. So thank you!
Interesting note on bifacial panels - a recent study showed VERTICAL orientation of bifacials produces significantly more power per day than horizontal tilted-at-latitude horizontal panels. Obviously a ground-mount situation. Literally the EDGE of the panel faces up, oriented to South. This gives peak performance in morning and afternoon with a null at noon, the opposite of the usual horizontal mounting. I'm thinking a solar ground install over bright white landscape gravel would avoid some of the mid-day null. Now who's got racking for that?
I have 16 Santan 250W used panels myself, located in San Diego, I went to Gilbert, AZ to pick them up myself as lift gate LTL freight couldn't deliver to my house for "reasons". These were their best used panels, no cracks or snail trails, and ran about $1000 for 16 panels. Getting ready to mount them to a trailer for portable solar install (ie, doesn't need building permit, can put in service before 2023, while I'm delaying my county-inspected array of bifacial panels due to renewed 30% solar rebate, cost of permitting, and amount of work involved with concrete).
I recently discovered a new source for used panels that has only high quality (no cracks or snail trails) used panels and most are much larger than Santan has, thanks to the Two Bit DaVinci channel. Solar Steals at solarsteals.com, and, convenient for me, warehoused in Yuma Arizona, half the distance of going to Gilbert AZ for Santan. I'm guessing since UA-cam says you're in Ohio that you might be getting Santan panels from Savanna GA by freight.
Where can I find the study on vertical orientation of bifacial panels? I might have to try that. Should be good for winter....
I'll have to check out Solar Steals. I do usually get my panels shipped from GA.
It can depend on hourly tarrif rates, like California peak time is 4pm to 9pm in summer, so for non-battery solar, the afternoon peak helps. Also, it shows there's a benefit for half the producers to use vertical and half to use horizontal, so the supply/demand ratio is optimized. Unfortunately I am not a good testbed for this because I'm shadowed by a mountain in late afternoon, so I can't provide useful data myself.
that off grid style makes anyone who has some more space or roof to cover to fall in love with some panels even if some of them look like SCARface
I bought 18 brand new $295 each USA helana 390 watt panels from watts 247. Due to the poor pallet quality the tarts at UPS didn't use fork extensions and broke the bottom panel. So I used 16 on a Sinclair ground mounts. They did refund me for one panel. But I need them in pairs of two for my charger.
Then I bought 17 used Turkish brand 375 watt panels from San tan at $133 each. None where broke so I have an extra now. They had minor frame separation in the corners. I installed them on a black roof on k2 mounts and quick bolt micro flashings. I angled them the same and the used Turkish panels put out on average 200 watts more in early morning. Once the sun was direct my system clipped because I have more panels than charge capacity.
The new panels cost me
$5,310 for 18 but one broke.
The used panels cost me
$2,244 for 17 and none broke
If u can find something like that I'd do it again all day long
I wouldn't use recalled panels for a roof install, but SanTan often has new clearance panels that are a great cost/watt.
Ever since I made bi-facial glass:glass solar panels, the STC was 1000 W/M3, not 1,200 - wondering at your use of 1,200? Moisture kills panels ultimately, so a panel with a cracked backsheet is already trash to be recycled. Is it worth shipping them around to get a couple months or a year more output? Not with any racking cost added to do it IMO.
There are some methods for repairing panels with cracked backsheets. I linked to a paper reviewing the options in the description. I personally wouldn't spend the time to repair them and still have the risk of a future failure, but if cost is the most important factor, I can see how they might make sense for some people. I do all my comparison testing at 1,000 W/m^2. The values at 1,200 W/m^2 is just a reference number for the likely max output you will see at solar noon.
I would think for mending the back king crack, something structural like an epoxy like JB weld, and something soft over that like plasti dip or one of the as-seen-on TV flex whatever products.
For the glass, after it's mounted, Super glue, clear epoxy, or windshield crack filler?
What's with the footage of installing gigawatts of panels on a roof in shade under a tree!?
Sorry, Jigga-Watts
I linked to a paper that evaluated many solutions for back sheet repair in the descriptions. Back Sheet Repair Solutions: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ese3.936
I will be bringing a future video with details on the roof install.
I wonder what to make of bifacial panels in light of this. Theres no back panel to crack but then again you have 2x the opportunity to microcrack the top of cells.
I think the advantages of bifacial panels puts them ahead of any other product out there right now.
Any used or damage panels should be install on the floor. Only keep new on roof.
What should be the ideal height for bifacial solar pannel to installation on rooftop?
The more distance you can achieve, the better the results will be. Especially if you can achieve an angle between the roof and the panels. Another way to improve the performance is to make some space between the panels. There is always going to be a balance between maximizing the output and managing the structural needs due to the increase in wind loads. You can see my roof results for bifacial panels in this video: ua-cam.com/video/mzqjCsZKUYQ/v-deo.html
Thanks for the quick response.@@ProjectsWithDave
This might be a stupid question but if you have 4 100watt panels in series can you put a splitter in to charge 2 different battery banks.
Sounds like you want to split the incoming power to two different charge controllers. The problem with that plan is the loads are not constant. An MPPT charge controller is constantly shifting to hold the panels at the highest power point. Two controllers connected together would be fighting each other. I haven't done it but I wouldn't recommend it.
@@ProjectsWithDave thanks for the reply.
Do you have an suggestions for running a sump pump for my basement sump pit. I'm open to a different pump and adding some panels for it. Thanks in advance!
Are you trying to run it off grid continually, or just periodically? I haven't looked into sump pumps specifically, but I imagine there are some 12V solutions out there. Maybe someone else in the community has experience with it and can offer a suggestion.
@@ProjectsWithDave
I would like to run it off of batteries and solar. I could add a switch to turn it off when empty. Thanks for any suggestions!
Since most sump pumps are no more than 540W, most likely you could run it with one solar panel, probably as low as 100W, connected to a Bluetti EB70S (Affiliate link: amzn.to/3LrBrHw). Although I haven't tried a sump pump, you can watch a video on all the things I was able to run with the EB70S here: ua-cam.com/video/LAjirHJ-t6s/v-deo.html
In a few weeks I will be making a video on how to make your own inverter and battery setup DIY style.
@@mister-action1 Sump pumps (and really any inductive load) draw a very large inrush of current when they start. I don't think you'd be able to modify the pump with a soft start kit, so that means you need an inverter than can handle the amperage spike. You want what's called a low frequency inverter; one with a toroidal transformer would be best. Otherwise you're going to have to massively oversize and/daisy chain multiple inverters together. But then you are idling all this excess capacity and wasting power. I just went through all this trying to power a 1hp well pump. Take a look at Victron and Schneider. I went Schneider because the 220v weighed on my decision, but I assume your sump pump is 110v, so Victron might get you a Toroidal transformer cheaper. Be aware, if toroidal transformers are outside your price range, the cheaper EG4 low frequency inverters have basic, square transformers in them. They work (not as well), but these units also have high idle power consumption.
@@Keifsanderson
What I ended up doing was buying a bilge pump. Like used for a boat. I ran a 1" water line and purchased a 100 w panal and i had a deep cycle battery. It's working very well. I put my 120v pump switch higher in the sump pit.
It will only kick on if my bilge pump fells. Pretty simple. That's all I Actually wanted.
Thanks for all of the suggestions! I appreciate it.
The ITC was increased to 30%, and I believe it is locked in to stay at that rate for the next 9-10 years. It was part of the IRA (Inflation Reduction Act).
What about "Hail Damage"?
The panels are made with tempered glass and can withstand some hail impact. The steeper the angel of your panels the less likely you are to have damage. Here is a good article on the topic: www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-panel-hail-damage-what-you-need-to-know
Buy some bifacials and point the edge straight up at the midday sun.
According to PV Magazine, the new energy bill, soon to be law, provides for restoration of the 30% tax credit -- retroactive to January 2022 and retains that level for the next ten years.
I suspected that might happen, but one can never be too sure until the bill is actually signed... : )
Not seeing the problem with panels getting less than the rates output . It's so cheap you can just buy more
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