How a deal for armoured vehicles from US threatens Make in India | In Our Defence, S02, Ep 28
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- #Stryker #IndiaUSDefenceDeal #MakeInIndia #IndiaCanadaRow #IndiaUS #Mahindra #TATA #SPG #PMModi #Sukhoi30Deal #Podcasts #InOurDefencePodcast #ShivAroor #IndiaToday
India and the United States are progressing in their discussions to collaboratively produce the latest generation of Stryker armoured infantry combat vehicles (ICVs).
Initially, the project will involve a limited off-the-shelf acquisition of Strykers through the US Foreign Military Sales program. Subsequent phases will include joint production in India, culminating in the co-development of future versions.
Host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor discuss the American Stryker combat vehicles deal and the ICVs' battlefield applications. They raise the larger question: Does India need this deal? With private players like Mahindra, Tata, or Ashok Leyland, couldn't India build something similar, given that the Stryker ICVs have few exemplary specifications? “I am not saying that India can do better than the Stryker right now, but we sure can get close,” says Shiv. They also explore how a deal for armoured vehicles from the US might threaten the 'Make in India' initiative.
Moreover, the Canadian aspect of the deal cannot be ignored amid the flared-up diplomatic tensions between India and Canada. How will this be factored in and pan out?
Watch!
Produced by Anna Priyadarshini
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Timestamps:
01:40-7:30-What are Stryker armoured infantry combat vehicles (ICVs)
7:30- 17:12-Do we really need the deal?
17:12-24:00-The controversial 'Canadian' aspect
24:00-33:11-How do govt-to-govt deals even happen?
33:11-35:00-India didn’t need the Sukhoi 30 deal!
35:00- 40:41-Should defence acquisitions be subject to parliamentary approval?
40:41- 48:00-Why make in India is not substantive
48:00- 50:59-Indian-made Scorpios for PM's SPG fleet, possible?
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Army has already told that they prefer Stryker over Indian made vehicles. This obsession of Army for imports must be stifled without any delay.
Bhai commission milti hai hamare generals ko foreign se. Kyun nahi lenge 😅
A country like USA is never going to part away its niche and core technology even with the transfer of technology.
this is a bad deal(if it happens) from the word go, considering strykers are not amphibious, unlike tata n mahindra WHAPs n that was a condition put on indian supplers.
Both systems are offensive platforms. Strykers different beast. Proven and combat worthy.
@@ajayrawat-bf9pc Stryker is a museum antique compared to drdo/tata kestrel 8x8 & drdo/Mahindra whap 8x8.
I disagree with the idea that India needs more light fighter jets. While being lightweight may offer some advantages, it doesn't necessarily mean they will outperform heavier fighters in terms of speed or capability. As a large nation, India's air force requires a diverse fleet to meet various requirements. Light fighter jets like the Tejas have limitations and are not suitable for all scenarios. In wartime, airfields are primary targets, and light fighter jets may not be as effective as heavier fighters like the Su-30MKI, which has demonstrated its capability to operate from diverse terrain. The Rafale's delta wing configuration is not ideal for the Indian Air Force, except for low-level attacks and stealth operations. Moreover, its combat record is limited to engagements against terrorist groups and civilians, raising doubts about its effectiveness against advanced fighters like China's 5th generation jets. Some experts' claims about the Rafale's superiority are questionable, especially when considering its limited combat experience against targets without advanced air defense systems. Therefore, I believe swing wing designs like the Su-30MKI are more suitable for India's needs, offering a balance of maneuverability, range, and payload capacity.
Developing a jet engine is a complex task that cannot be taken lightly. It's not possible to simply create a cheap jet engine and call it a game changer, as engines are the lifeline of aircraft and cannot be compromised due to budget constraints. Using a makeshift engine in a fighter jet is not an option, as it would compromise performance and reliability. You must be aware that every time an aircraft flies, whether a jet or helicopter, it will require repairs, and technical support is essential for maintenance. Unlike ground vehicles or ships, aircraft require specialized expertise and technology. Jet engine technology is considered a national secret and sharing it is rare, as it's either highly valuable, obsolete, or has significant problems. As the saying goes, developing a nuclear weapon may take only a few months, but developing a jet engine can take years or even decades.
Foreign/imported equipments don't meet diverse needs for vast range of landscapes/challenges of Ind. Indigenous high tech military industrial complex is the only solution.
it is times group will always support of us agenda
Tell something about cruise missiles torpedos and ballastic missiles which are made in India. Overcoming the power of the west and China.
We build those things in 16 times less cost than they do🤷♀️
Ut’s the begining it will be problematic now but sooner we will cut down cost and make our own technologies better . Why give up and loose hope this soon dude?
Do not forget father of all missiles atleast in Asia that is Brahmos🤷♀️
Javeline is ok Stryker is big no no but then we are not Army Jawans who actually use them
Everyone who is commenting.........
regarding the strikyer deal and listening to this fool who says we would not get TOT not even one page.....first of all no body is a defence expert....and please people who are writing comments....you guys are not better than the armed forces think tank....so please sit tight...and have fun...and dont listen to this fool....
In the era of kamikazi drones, tanks and armoured vehicles are lkke sitting ducks....
That's why aps and anti drone technology is being developed
I agree. Dealing with USA is never without pitfalls and blackmailing.
We already got their Apache and Chinooks
Another thing to discuss: Why HAL was forced to do away with the fantastic project of successful HF-24 Marut (of 1971 War fame) and go ahead with Migs and Sukhois.
This single act blew all the potentials of HAL in the field of combat aircraft development and manufacturing.
Ask pappu's party
I am not sure about this but there was some issue w.r.t engine, Shekhar Gupta of The Print mentioned it once
Below paar engine Marut fail reason
and, government spineless
@@Ashutoshsk-mx5py Not a very serious issue. HF-24 did very well in 1971 War, more powerful engine would have advanced it's capabilities.
It was designed by the world famous Kurt Tank. It had excellent airframe, body and firepower.
No HF-24 could be shot down by the Pakistanis, all returned to their bases despite severe damages.
Why to import Canada/US Stryker vehicle while Tata/m&m WHAPs are all ready? Should Buy PW engines/ToT if we charm them.
Why shud make in india be just for india ..make in india for the world
@@prodigalfraudaddy Mf these aren't candy
Make them in India but why buy and induct them
Even Americans don't like Strykers
@@prodigalfraudaddy i dont have problem with stryker production in india if its just for us army,
we already have whaap platform.
we should stay away from usa defence products they can block it anytime.
I too really feel this deal was unnecessary we won't get anything extra from this deal..we must not fall for the American arm twisting..Modiji we don't need this deal support Tatas and Mahindras and other domestic suppliers
The domestic companies and their employees, need to improve quality and price of their products. One part of army purchase will always be from whom they can deliver quality.
Some army chaps and few MOD guys are getting rich in this deal. Its just utter corruption.
Its is simple, india has to satisfy or balance both Russia and america in its weapon import otherwise USA will put sanction on india for its petroleum import from russia.
शेखर g who is the person taken bribe in 600 cr इटालियन VIP chopper डील suppose to be behind bar
ED is the 3rd class agency in India. It adds name of journalists in chargesheet but not the politicians involve. What happened after adding Shekhar Gupta's name in the charge sheet? One notice from Delhi high court to ED and ED on its knees. No journalists were involved in that scam. ED can't punish the real perpetrators therefore trying to drag journalist who exposed the scam in first place. Out of 80 accused 33 had not even been summoned yet and guess what who are they? They were politians most from the congress party and few which shifted to BJP.
I think even T-72 was bought in a similar manner. Army was looking into British and French Tanks including Challenger
Co-production has been derided.. overlooking the K9 Vajra.. How this has now helped L and T produce commendable prototypes of Zorawar the light tank..
Buying and fighting is called selling our sole which is equivalant to opposit of independent.
👉🏻 At the least the “ Russian Bhangar “ is going out for good in favour for top line military hardware.
Do not buy defense equipments from Lotus Machine tools pvt ltd Chandigarh India. Their products are very very low quality. They are with other names: Lotus Defense and aerospace, Security Equipments, Future Technologies. RK Gupta(Father), Amit Gupta(Son)
1) the level of vision and control, by the Modi administration, is reflected in the 20% loss of seats!!!!!
2) so, I bet Jaishankar is not talking with Rajnath.
While Jaishankar seems to be defending Bharat's interests, Rajnath seems to be giving it away. And, Modi seems to be a manifesto PM, with extremely well resourced one-liners
3) finally, both the Babus and leaders within the Indian armed forces lack vision
4) thank you, Bharat, for funding the R&D in Russia (Sukhoi), France (Rafale), and now the US/Canada.
😂😅🎉
This is a podcast I wait for.....at par with JRE. ❤❤❤
JRE?
Excuse Me ! The light tank Zorawar with 25 tonnes in weight ; achievement for both DRDO and L&T its Belts are of Rubber imported from Canada so what if Stryker armored fighting vehicles derived from the Canadian LAV III, itself derived from the Swiss Mowag Piranha is dealt with Americans conglomerate General Dynamics by Indians.
You are jumping to the conclusion too early. Mechanized Infantry combat requirements are both wheeled and track vehicles keeping Recce & SP bns in mind. Terrain restricts limited use of wheeled vehicles in our country. Hence, bulk will be tracked vehicles. Amphibious ICVs are a prerequisite. I only see their employments more in the wheeled version Recce & Sp bns, recce platoons mountainerous Terrain and UN missions. The only issue with Indian version APCs (WHAP) is that apart from Terrain trials, weapon integration and personnel protection, hardly any progress has been made. What has impressed the Army is the Stryker 105mm main gun and the ATGM systems. However, it has serious limitations for not being amphibious. Without user trials, we should not jump to a conclusion. Many of us are more eyeing at the weapons available on the Stryker platform than the actual vehicle.
Might as well place both feet on the coffee table !😊
Look we have not designed any engine till date for a commercial vehicle till date.Tatas upgraded Mercedes engine, Ashok Leyland upgraded Leyland engines.Currently since upgradation is not working, therefore tatas went for Cummins and ashok Leyland went for hino.
Beml use Tatra or caterpillar.
Therefore how could you design aircraft
600 HP engines for IFVs and APCs is already developed and equipped on Mahindra WHaP
All these features you have talked are what we have been making since years now that Mahindras is century old company, TATAs are quite old around same, the Hindujas Ashok Leyland have mastered in number of tired, 350HP and more heavy Combat vehicles we are already in the making and exporting to so many countries, pl think twice before even thinking that we are little less in KNOW HOW , it's laughing stock Sir, no offence
We should also be master to : copy, understand, upgrade the copied product, that is inovtion and design, make our own product. To do it, concerned people must have up-to date practical knowledge, desire etc. Not the typical buricratic mindset. Hope I could make my understanding clear to everybody. Only bookish knowledge, what we get from so called college/ INSTITUTE will not work.
do we have the time to develop these technologies which should have happened two decades earlier?
by the time we develop, test, manufacture China will have 1000's of them ready at the LAC.
If we are getting the TOT for the engines the deal is worth it.
Also army has already inducted WHAP from Tata Nd Mahindra.
Army wasn't Satisfied with the performance of WHAP developed by DRDO That's why they decided To Go For Stryker And same With the case of ATGM Drdo was Developing MPATGM For a long time and still couldn't Complete the development Thats why they are again Going For Javelin ATGM
Very good and constructive discussion and the need of the hour… this deal is not good for India’s make in India efforts. All the points that are brought up are very serious
This Shiv Aroor nincompoop Air Condition sitting without any technical background two penny worth journalist. When you have a production within country no matter how expensive it may seem, it allows for production even during the war. During the war it is difficult to import weapons. Hope it helped your childish analysis.
I think I know the answer. Since large numbers of vehicles are under consideration, this is to prevent domestic players from asking for too high a price for their vehicles. If the Stryker gets selected over the WhAP I would be really surprised and shocked.
Witness what happened to the Agniveer program . Senior Army and Navy personnel post retirement have come out to castigate the government for starting this program.Thay claim that this is done to reduce pension commitments which are burgeoning over the years thereby reducing the funds available to buy hardware and modernise the forces. Their rationale is economics can never dictate the meddling with recruitment , training and retirement of armed forces personnel.The opposition has no doubt added to the fire . Youths from Bihar and UP went on rampage destroying hundreds of crores of property in their objections to Agniveer concept. As if all these hoodlums would have been recruited !.
Please be assured no one will give their latest technology. period. To manufacture under make in India, you can also be assured over a period of time India will make the best in class-- it has to start somewhere! Like Chandrayan, we made it cheaper and it worked. Other thing-- we donot want to be black mailed at a later date if we have something of our own. Like the Submarines.
Perhaps this should be openly discussed in your Tv channel !! you can invite experienced defence personnel not more than 2. No political spokesperson please. May be a person from defence ministry could be used !! We the people must know the truth from all angles.
You guys are mixing specific Defence projects for Make in India and propagating as of Make in India isn’t working ! There are many many industries where it is working like magic !
We need to invest in R&D in universities. How many good aerospace programs do we have in India? Then we expect them to deliver. US spends billions of dollar in education for training the engineers and scientists.
The word "Brutal" shows the desperation of the vlogger, that too comes from a channel like India Today. Nauseous, to say the least.
Best way to finance Indian R&D is by buying Indian product, which may be inferior to US- Russian technology right now.
Buying and fighting can be called.luxari
RIP Make in India...
Tata has made Kestrel IFV and APCs . I don't know why MoD is interested in buying foreign APCs and IFVs.
The Russian Almaz have proven its worth in the war in Ukraine.
Nothing Russia has in Ukraine worked . Its a junkyard of Russian tanks
Should stop promoting foreign in Indian plateforms ( for money in your pocket)
Humare soldiers hi nepal ee imported hai...😮
A video or image of the equipment you speak about will give your viewers a better idea.
Sir talk more facts rather than English language uses talk facts ,iam person who knows the facts
While Atmanirbharta is in our own self interests, at the same time, as the vice chief of airforce reiterated, Atma Nirbharta cannot be at the cost of the security of the nation. we need the best of the best for our defence forces as it is a matter of life for them and us if we look at the larger picture, while at the same time we need to keep our research and development steady at the same time
Even canada manufacture stryker but it rejected that saying it is piece of junk
The Tata vehicle is amphibious. The Stryker is NOT.
Lots of American bots in the comment section.
They are just not delusional like you
General Dynamics is an American company headquartered in Reston, Virginia. GD bought Chrysler Defense and it became GD Land Systems. Canadian ops are just a subsidiary.
Yes sure wake up, take 2 decades but build EVERYTHING from scratch. Perfect thing to do.
What about indigenous AIP by DRDO for Submarines ? Also the indigenous modifications carried out on Russian aircrafts for much enhanced performance?
Fake News Aap chala rahe hain
shiv you still havent done any episode on infantry modernisation
Please show pictures while talking about it
STOP PRAISING YOUR OWN COLLEAGUES - STOP THE NONSENSE.
ICV or PAC. It is doubtful that these. Will be useful in high altitude mountain Warefare.
Are you getting aircraft engines from US?
Make in india is biggest joke of the 1000 years 😝
Kiddos discussing new toys😂😂😂😂😂
01:07 its never happening
So u prefer to buy , do u have some gress in that?
So u prefer to buy , do u have some gress in that?
Babu needs his cake.
Well stated?
Foul play???
🧐😔
Indian government is delaying in buying ATAGS but want tobuy Stryker so early, this is army and government behavior
The chandigarh lobby is using khalistan and using Sikhs, plus Sikhs in the army has to play out. Unless someone within Bharat is willing to name and shame the chandigarh lobby of retired military personnel working against Bharat, as they have billions of rupees to gain from this transaction,nothing good is going to happen
Absolutely..Stryker is Absolutely nonsense deal, whap can be Improved. Additional firepower can be added
It is not a standard Stryker but the shorad version
Stricker isn't a vehicle like Tata, Mahindra made. Stricker as name suggest is attack vehicle, mine clearing function and many more specialized act.
Sorry to say but i need to correct a few innacuracies.
Firstly, its Stryker, not Stricker. And the name does not reflect its purpose. U.S. Army has a history of naming its vehicles in honour of its Generals and Soldiers, like Abrams, Sherman, Booker, Stryker.
Secondly, Stryker's primary purpose is not "attack" but to provide armored transportation to infantry, with moderate fire support. It falls in a class called Infantry Fighting Vehicles/Armored Personnel Carriers. Tata Kestrel and Mahindra WhAPs fall in the same exact class. Both Stryker and WhAPs have similar design, i.e. an armored V-shaped hull that carries 9 soldiers on an 8X8 wheel drive platform, and typically has a 30mm cannon as primary armament.
There's absolutely nothing ground breaking as such that Stryker brings to the table.
@@indianpatriot10000 In fact its inferior
Stryker has 350 HP compared to 600 of WHaP
STANAG 3 of protecttion vs STANAG 4
Zero Blast Protection vs STANAG 4 protection of WHap
not to mention Stryker isn't amphibious
@@yashasvisingh6694comparing a battle tested vehicle to Tata whap is a joke. Tata can't even sell cars made in india outside to consumers with any level of sophistication. If tax protection is taken away today and imports allowed , Tata vehicles business will fold up. That is proof of its production and technological capacity. Don't compare what can't be compared.
@@sidthorat and?
Mahindra also makes WHaP
L&T and Bharat Forge also make WHaP
TATA is already supplying Armoured vehicles to Army and they haven't complained a single time about it
Stryker was breaking down in Ukraine regularly due to poor engine and small wheels
It doesn't even fits in the RFI presented by the Army for Wheeled Armoured fighting vehicle
Mig 21 is also battle tested so why make Tejas MWF Ted-Bf and AMCA
Let's just buy more Mig 21 by your logic
@@yashasvisingh6694 they will not complain..like arjun they will buy few to keep MOD and govt happy..they are OK for CRPF type operations. Comparing Stryker to WHAP is like comparing a Tesla to Nexon. The electronics and system besides the pure engineering make the difference you can't even imagine.
Mig21 at its peak was awesome. It was too old and hence lost its relevance. The right comparison will be Rafael vs Tejas...and you know how they compare. Infact countries buy second hand F16s but not Tejas.Korean jets but not Tejas.the truth is our IAF is saddled with these because it has no choice
Deal is to keep the best happy and engaged. Some gains for India also. We need faster equipment induction. Also it's an offensive proven platform. Consider it had taken money.
But Drdo Whap out-performes it in almost everyway.
Only Shiv's program in india today is informative and straight forward.
We have Tata Kestrel, Mahindra, Kalyani all have their armoured vehicles.
Indeginou is needed for long war. Ok if it is a bit costly it ok for long war
- Best to let the army & gvt. decide.
. It's like instructing Sachin Tendulkar about how to hit a century.
Shiv Aroor has however forgotten the successful Brahmos joint-venture with Russia and I think it has been a fruitful make in India venture with TOT
India financed everything about Brahmos and fixed major problems in Brahmos. Russians has still not given us propulsion chemical formula, technology, blueprints. Never provided Engine repair manuals of SU-30MKI, never provided metallurgy for AK-203 or AK-47. They gave manufacturing license to Egypt but not India. Think about it.
It is only your opinion@@pharkle35
bahmos was joint venture because we didnt have tech at that time.
queestion is why are we chosing stryker which is infirior platform against much better whaap?
i have no problme with joint production in jet engine space.
That's not co production. It's co development
Seriously you think India can make brahmos even today ?
You must be dreaming somewhere
Not today even after 100 years no country will give you technology which they developed no matter how much money you give them.
This is the eternal truth and also Indians are not expert enough to absorb technology.
For example
We made submarines with Germany same ways Koreans also made sub marines with Germany today Koreans are competing with Germany for project 75I or project 76.
We made submarines with France still not there we are still trying to get partners to make next generation submarines
I am sure we are not able to make any of our own submarines even after doing 6 scorpenes under Tot from France.
That's why Isro is far ahead because in space no one gives this technology so you have to develop your own and it takes time but it's still OK
Unlike defense.
This TOT is a sham no matter what it's just fooling Indians and bringing foreign equipments by changing names and stickers.
We need an APS now for all armoured vehicles it is a shame that any of the t90 Bhishma and even the advanced Arjun do not have an APS. APS has been critical component of almost all tanks and APCs for more than 30 Years. Y India so much tech advances cannot develop an APS system is worrying aspect. We already saw how in UKRAINE war T90M have been decimated with all advanced tech.
Most of the tanks in the world do not have an APS. It's still an evolving technology. While israel did had APS for their tanks, even they are failing and probably need upgrade.
They aren't failing lol in most of the videos they just shot their ATs at the tanks with aps and they don't show the aftermath. Just an explosion doesn't mean the tank got hit the trophy uses fragments to make the incoming projectile explode @@kevindominic5224
I completely disagree the trophy aps of Israel has a great interception rate and is battle proven thats why many other countries are using it, on Swedish cv90, US abrams and challenger 3 and leopard 2a8
@@pandibbarman , Trophy has major vulnerabilities, they are practically useless in short ranges. In the urban battle, enemy fire come from comparatively short ranges and Trophy had high rate of failures. Hundreds of tanks and Armoured vehicles were lost in gaza from simple home made RPGs. llly, trophy only trigger if incoming projectile have certain speed, which makes them vulnerable to slow FPV drones. Current Trophy system is not capable of intercepting FPV drones, which will make it practically useless in modern battlefield.
I support stryker plus javelin. bcz i want to balance make in india and critical requirement. Sorry Shiv! Make in India is fine but not at cost critical requirements. quick decisions needed in case of MRFA.
Yeah, exactly because the Stryker will not only be built for India but also for other US allies.
TATAs had displayed the WhAP with a Konsberg weapon station mounting a Javelin years ago. At one of the defence expos.
Pictures are on Google. Look them up.
So that's not the real reason.
WHaP has been ready for nearly a decade fool
@@rishabhbadjatya9599EVen the US military doesn't likes Stryker
We aren’t good enough at making at this stage. Plus there is pressure on India backdoor diplomacy to improve relationships with US and Canada
The most balanced view point ever heard.
APCs are not simple by any stretch, SPECIALLY because of the insurgents being able to deploy larger and larger IEDs and cheap AT guided missiles. An APC today needs active protection systems from atgms, and drones as baseline with very good IED protections. If India doesn't have good APS enabled APCs we should invest outside and anywhere to get them. The threat has changed completely
Ok then tell what APS does Stryker uses?
Also its the turret which has the APS not the vehicle itself
DRDO has also developed APS enabled 30 mm Turret for IFVs with ATGMS
And striker have none of those. So your argument is invalid.
What is crual?
🇮🇳
🙏🏾
Is it old episode that we had last week?
Whenever the guy on the right says "dev," he sounds so gay..... Fugging hell. Please stop saying "dev" after every phrase
Does this deal link to predator dtones
Problem with most of the analyst here is lack of understanding why people buy weapon from US and Russia. US and Russia have multiple proxy wars, in these wars they test their weapons and its quality. Right now Russia is fighting a two and half year war and it is allowing it to evaluate its weapons. Same way US used weapons in Iraq, Afghanistan, Gaza and now Ukraine. They have taken multiple optimisation decisions that has helped the platform become better. We as a country has hardly fought a war, we don't realise the mobility issue and the attack issue in a war. Just blindly we have believed that WhAp is a complete solution while Stryker has no edge. All this needs thorough analysis during War, where those weapon deliver the advantage to us.
Russia makes garbage . they have no technology . They depend on China
Does this have an reaper angel?