DMG pg 61 and 62. There are three surprise segments (and in some cases more). The amount of surprise segments is determined by subtracting the surprised roll from the suprisers roll on a d6 with applied modifiers. In normal cases you can only be surprised for two rounds. But as with a bugbear the party can be down three rounds if they roll a 1 because the bugbear surprises on 1-3. Also the party takes the best modifier in the group while rolling surprise. Also on page 61. Example a ranger is only surprised on a 1, but surprises on 1-3. So if the party rolled a 1 and monsters rolled a three they would both be surprised for 1 segment. If they both rolled a 1 then the party would be surprised for 1 segment but the monsters would be surprised for three this the party would have a two surprise segments advantage. If the monsters roll a 1 and the party is not surprised then they would have three surprise segments to attack. (In which a good ranger would fire 6 shots from their bow)
Nicely explained. I've never heard of the 2 segment max. rule for 1e: kind of takes away the advantage of some creatures, but I believe it got out of control with some monsters when they had larger number die rolls, and it got into percentages and got all confusing. I think Ken-Do-Rim over at Dragonsfoot has a supplement that converts all those pesky percentages. Honestly, unless there is a very good reason, once it gets past 3 segments, it enters the land of the absurd with player/monsters able to fire off multiple arrows, inflicting huge damage. I cap at 3. You also showed that lovely error in the DMG surprise chart (the last two lines) that never got fixed that causes a lot of confusion as they're backwards. A small clerical mistake, causing confusion for many for years to come. heh A debated topic for sure, and a clever use of the dice to indicate multiple things, but DM judgement is occasionally required when it goes off the rails as that clever time-saver becomes a bugbear (perhaps with complete surprise. haha).
Thank you. I am still unable to locate the idea of complete surprise in AD&D 1e, but the complete surprise bit is mentioned in OD&D Supplement III Eldritch Wizardry. *Complete surprise is basically a die of 2 when checking. **Surprise is basically a die 1 when checking, or a die 2 in those cases where the creature in question is difficult to surprise and has only a 1 in 6 chance of being surprised.
@@CraftDD OD&D surprise may have had a max of 2 segments but 1E doesn't. OD&D is simpler after all. The DMG p.61 even has a comparison table with a possible 3 segments, but depending on the surprise abilities possessed by either side it CAN actually be more. "Complete Surprise" is an entirely undefined term in 1E. It IS a holdover from OD&D but it doesn't have any special mechanical consequence about it, so unfortunately using it just creates confusion. It is interesting to figure out what the 1E system was really trying to do (which obviously is the point of the video). If only it were actually a GOOD system to use in a game. 😀 There are many ways to handle it that are just easier to understand and to use.
I like what you tried to do here, but the example you presented is an ambush (when the player's party is auto surprised) or even a trap. Like I said, I get your intent. The better example would be if the players were in a room investigating, and some orcs walk in through the opposite door. It gets tricky when modifiers and adjustments occur. Always draw up a chart like in the DMG or PHB, it makes it easier. As the DMG states, "Surprise is basically self explanatory". Also, because people have an immediate resistance to AD&D Surprise and combat, they make it harder than it really is. In theory, it's possible to be surprised up to 5 segments (one side rolling 1 and the other rolling 6).
Thanks for the comment. In my example in the first part of the video there is only a possibility that the party could be surprised. It is an important distinction that I do make in the video. And as I discussed later on in the second part of the video if the party and another creature happened down the corridor and ran into each other, than both sides could have been surprised. A true ambush, like the 95% chance of surprise offered by a piercer still gives the party a slight chance of figuring it out. In the goblin example, the monsters are laying in wait, yes. But there can always be an element of surprise. In my real life experience no ambush can ever be assumed to be an automatic surprise. If the ambush is executed well it should have a high probability of success, but these are goblins in the example and not a finally tuned military group. Now perhaps better organized and trained creatures could execute a perfect ambush, but I would still have to carefully think about it, and still roll the percentile dice to see what luck thinks. Completely removing the possibility of surprise in cases like this removes player agency, which then just turns into the DM telling the players a story with the players as the audience. I always like to assume that the characters that the players are portraying have a bit of luck on their side.
@@CraftDD The short answer is yes to almost all of that. Goblins and Orcs - while not very intelligent - are very cunning and also well practiced in the art of sneaky combat. Part 1 of the problem with surprise is that the DM has final determination of what adjustments (if any) are to be had, therefore, no two DMs will do the same thing in the situation. It's partly intentional to be that way. One side can be 100% surprised, just as one side can be 0% surprised. At the time of the Monster Manual, the plan was surprise to be a % value (see the monk), then changed by the PHB to be a single die. Where folks get confused about surprise is that the charts don't really reflect what is being printed (sort of). There are so many elements to a combat, to try to include them all would make the combat section not just 20pages but 200 pages, and Gygax needed 20+ pages for random encounters. you are very right that the players are wandering around environs that aren't theirs, and Monsters should get some bonus - most live in the dark, while strolling down a corridor, a Party is often talking, clinking, rattling, and breathing heavy - not to mention torches, lanterns, and magical weapons that glow all the time. Theoretically, one party could be surprised 5 segments (a roll of a '1' vs a roll of '6'); People make it harder than it is, and try as I might, I have attempted to de-mystify the procedure with mixed results. ADDICT misses a few points, but no one system is perfect. I like to stick to the book as much as possible, but I do move to the side as required. That 95% for the Piercer (little rocks falling can give the position away), I take it to 79% when a Ranger is in the party (reducing surprise by 16% or '1 in 6').
If a ranger is in a group and gets surprised less often than the rest, the rest should take advantage of the ranger benefit, unless the ranger hates their partners and fails to warn the rest.
Except surprise, if it actually happens, is pretty much the same thing as when you turn a corner in a building and a person is standing there. You don't really have time to yell out a warning or anything. It is just happening. The ranger isn't expecting the person around the corner, he is just a little more suspicious I guess. "Rangers surprise opponents 50% of the time (d6, score 1 through 3) and are themselves surprised on 16 2/3% of the time (d6, score 1).
DMG pg 61 and 62. There are three surprise segments (and in some cases more). The amount of surprise segments is determined by subtracting the surprised roll from the suprisers roll on a d6 with applied modifiers. In normal cases you can only be surprised for two rounds. But as with a bugbear the party can be down three rounds if they roll a 1 because the bugbear surprises on 1-3. Also the party takes the best modifier in the group while rolling surprise. Also on page 61.
Example a ranger is only surprised on a 1, but surprises on 1-3. So if the party rolled a 1 and monsters rolled a three they would both be surprised for 1 segment. If they both rolled a 1 then the party would be surprised for 1 segment but the monsters would be surprised for three this the party would have a two surprise segments advantage. If the monsters roll a 1 and the party is not surprised then they would have three surprise segments to attack. (In which a good ranger would fire 6 shots from their bow)
Excellent video. 1st ed. rules.
I cut my teeth in 2e, 1996. Now getting into 1e and going to run my group through. They ALL learned via 5e. Rude awakenings will ensue.
Nicely explained. I've never heard of the 2 segment max. rule for 1e: kind of takes away the advantage of some creatures, but I believe it got out of control with some monsters when they had larger number die rolls, and it got into percentages and got all confusing. I think Ken-Do-Rim over at Dragonsfoot has a supplement that converts all those pesky percentages.
Honestly, unless there is a very good reason, once it gets past 3 segments, it enters the land of the absurd with player/monsters able to fire off multiple arrows, inflicting huge damage. I cap at 3.
You also showed that lovely error in the DMG surprise chart (the last two lines) that never got fixed that causes a lot of confusion as they're backwards. A small clerical mistake, causing confusion for many for years to come. heh
A debated topic for sure, and a clever use of the dice to indicate multiple things, but DM judgement is occasionally required when it goes off the rails as that clever time-saver becomes a bugbear (perhaps with complete surprise. haha).
Thank you.
I am still unable to locate the idea of complete surprise in AD&D 1e, but the complete surprise bit is mentioned in OD&D Supplement III Eldritch Wizardry.
*Complete surprise is basically a die of 2 when checking.
**Surprise is basically a die 1 when checking, or a die 2 in those cases where the creature in question is difficult to surprise and has only a 1 in 6 chance of being surprised.
@@CraftDD OD&D surprise may have had a max of 2 segments but 1E doesn't. OD&D is simpler after all. The DMG p.61 even has a comparison table with a possible 3 segments, but depending on the surprise abilities possessed by either side it CAN actually be more. "Complete Surprise" is an entirely undefined term in 1E. It IS a holdover from OD&D but it doesn't have any special mechanical consequence about it, so unfortunately using it just creates confusion.
It is interesting to figure out what the 1E system was really trying to do (which obviously is the point of the video). If only it were actually a GOOD system to use in a game. 😀 There are many ways to handle it that are just easier to understand and to use.
I like what you tried to do here, but the example you presented is an ambush (when the player's party is auto surprised) or even a trap.
Like I said, I get your intent. The better example would be if the players were in a room investigating, and some orcs walk in through the opposite door.
It gets tricky when modifiers and adjustments occur. Always draw up a chart like in the DMG or PHB, it makes it easier.
As the DMG states, "Surprise is basically self explanatory".
Also, because people have an immediate resistance to AD&D Surprise and combat, they make it harder than it really is.
In theory, it's possible to be surprised up to 5 segments (one side rolling 1 and the other rolling 6).
Thanks for the comment.
In my example in the first part of the video there is only a possibility that the party could be surprised. It is an important distinction that I do make in the video. And as I discussed later on in the second part of the video if the party and another creature happened down the corridor and ran into each other, than both sides could have been surprised.
A true ambush, like the 95% chance of surprise offered by a piercer still gives the party a slight chance of figuring it out.
In the goblin example, the monsters are laying in wait, yes. But there can always be an element of surprise. In my real life experience no ambush can ever be assumed to be an automatic surprise. If the ambush is executed well it should have a high probability of success, but these are goblins in the example and not a finally tuned military group. Now perhaps better organized and trained creatures could execute a perfect ambush, but I would still have to carefully think about it, and still roll the percentile dice to see what luck thinks. Completely removing the possibility of surprise in cases like this removes player agency, which then just turns into the DM telling the players a story with the players as the audience. I always like to assume that the characters that the players are portraying have a bit of luck on their side.
@@CraftDD The short answer is yes to almost all of that.
Goblins and Orcs - while not very intelligent - are very cunning and also well practiced in the art of sneaky combat.
Part 1 of the problem with surprise is that the DM has final determination of what adjustments (if any) are to be had, therefore, no two DMs will do the same thing in the situation.
It's partly intentional to be that way.
One side can be 100% surprised, just as one side can be 0% surprised. At the time of the Monster Manual, the plan was surprise to be a % value (see the monk), then changed by the PHB to be a single die.
Where folks get confused about surprise is that the charts don't really reflect what is being printed (sort of).
There are so many elements to a combat, to try to include them all would make the combat section not just 20pages but 200 pages, and Gygax needed 20+ pages for random encounters.
you are very right that the players are wandering around environs that aren't theirs, and Monsters should get some bonus - most live in the dark, while strolling down a corridor, a Party is often talking, clinking, rattling, and breathing heavy - not to mention torches, lanterns, and magical weapons that glow all the time.
Theoretically, one party could be surprised 5 segments (a roll of a '1' vs a roll of '6'); People make it harder than it is, and try as I might, I have attempted to de-mystify the procedure with mixed results. ADDICT misses a few points, but no one system is perfect. I like to stick to the book as much as possible, but I do move to the side as required.
That 95% for the Piercer (little rocks falling can give the position away), I take it to 79% when a Ranger is in the party (reducing surprise by 16% or '1 in 6').
If a ranger is in a group and gets surprised less often than the rest, the rest should take advantage of the ranger benefit, unless the ranger hates their partners and fails to warn the rest.
Except surprise, if it actually happens, is pretty much the same thing as when you turn a corner in a building and a person is standing there. You don't really have time to yell out a warning or anything. It is just happening. The ranger isn't expecting the person around the corner, he is just a little more suspicious I guess.
"Rangers surprise opponents 50% of the time (d6, score 1 through 3) and are themselves surprised on 16 2/3% of the time (d6, score 1).
@@elliotvernon7971 Ranger benefits the party with his awareness, but he is in turn penalized by the party in his stelth. Logical.
The surprise sections on p.62 of the DMG and p.103 of PHB are badly worded with erroneous tables