I read both of the scripts side by side, jumping between them after each scene. The story structure and plot points are very similar between O'bannons script and the Hill/Giler rewrite, but the characterization is much different. Dan O'bannon comes up with great ideas and does a really good job at structuring the screenplay, but the weakest elements are definitely the characters and dialogue. The characters are very one note and the dialogue feels pulpy, like a 50's sci fi cartoon. All in all, I think both parties deserve the credit for making the script what it is. Dan O'bannon laid the groundwork and Hill/Giler spiced it up to make it even more memorable.
I have said this on an earlier Tyler video. When you read O'Bannon's script, you see in your mind's eye a Rodger Corman movie. When you read the finished script, you see the movie itself in your head. O'Bannon, bless him, was needlessly chippy and precious about the entire thing. It happens I guess. The entertainment industry as a whole is full of stories about artists getting ripped off and 'rat f**ked', but Dan was unfair on the Brandywine trio. Walter HIll, for example, is far more than a maker of 'tough guy movies', to quote O'Bannon. Have your doubts at the time, but one reason I like Hampton Fancher is he admits that the writing of Blade Runner had to be taken away from him. When he saw the film, he realized, 'Ridley was totally right'. It's a shame Dan couldn't come to the same conclusion afer the saw how succesful the film became. I'd like to think he enjoyed his success. One project set him up for life and not many can boast that. Despite his misgivings at the time, I hope he realized how lucky he was and celebrated it.
@@davidlean1060 O' Bannon is a great writer, bit his version of Alien is bad, as far as scripts are concerned. Hill and Giler's version is superior in every way, but O'Bannon's ideas are sound. I don't think O'Bannon was quite ready to make films within the Hollywood system yet, but I do believe he grew creatively from his experience on Alien; his subsequent scripts are leaps and bounds better.
You may be right... but I also find that dialogue often reads as more "pulpy"/"cheesy" whatever when you haven't heard it read outloud by a talented actor. All of the lines in the re-write you probably read in your head with the same voice as the actors in the film gave to them. In the same way that there are some lines from the original Star Wars that, on paper, are absolutely horrible. But... coming from the lips of gifted actors like Harrison Ford, James Earl Jones, or Carrie Fisher... they become memorable and quotable.
I can't blame O'Bannon for being so enthusiastic during the film's production, the guy was practically living in poverty before they bought the script.
He seemed really distraught on the quadrilody. Driving around all night and referring to it as “his” movie. Sounds complicated but O’Bannon didn’t sound like he was the easiest person to work with.
O’Bannon had felt that he had been shorted on credit in some ways. He said that John Carpenter walked away with most of the credit for DARK STAR due to his being director. I don’t think Giler and Hill had much respect for him either, based on interviews I’ve seen. O’Bannon said he and Shusett were disturbed by a lot of the swearing and other adult content that they said was inserted by Giler/Hill and that when Ridley Scott was hired, they ran up and gave him a copy of the original script. Ridley looked at it and said, “Yes, we definitely need to go back to the first way.” O’Bannon said after that, the film became a battle between two camps..one wanting one version of the film and the other camp wanting another. O’Bannon and Shusett wrote the first screenplay for what later became TOTAL RECALL. He went through the wringer on that, as well as having to fight for his cut of his Lovecraft adaptation, THE RESURRECTED. He died of stomach cancer, Chrones Disease or cancer of the intestines or something along those lines, so there’s a good chance he was in physical discomfort most of the time, which probably makes him come across as bitter…and he might have actually been bitter. I think he was kind of naive about Hollywood and the compromises that must be made if a film is to get made. However, he had a pretty bad falling out with Ron Shusett over the TOTAL RECALL property, and had pretty huge disagreements on RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD (1985) as well, so it’s possible he was just prickly hard to deal with. Anyway, another slam hit out of the park by Cinema Tyler. Great job telling the story. Obviously you went back to the original interviews O’Bannon gave to Starlog and Fantastic Films at the time of the release of ALIEN in 1979.
@@biffmercury It's funny you mentioned Starlog and Fantastic Films. Both magazines featured articles and amazing photo spreads of the film production before ALIEN came out. I was all in for the movie when I saw them.👍
@@biffmercury TBH, the sequel-ization of my favorite older movies makes me feel old and jaded sometimes. I don't have the same interest in movies anymore because I feel I've seen it all-- over and over again. I can't believe I now think of ALIEN as an old classic.🖖
I still think that the start/stop destruction sequence of the Nostromo by Ripley is what really gave me major amounts of stress... And the landing in LV 426, that soundtrack is just fantastic... I was 8 years old I was and still am a sci fi boy at heart
The acid for blood came from Ron Cobb, one of the concept designers of ALIEN. Overall, I think ALIEN was improved because of the changes made, including making Ripley a woman.
Ron Cobb is one of the greatest designers IMO too. And Obanon more or less brought that dream team of geniuses to Alien: Cobb, Giger, Moebius, so he also deserves credit for that
The addition by Hill and Giler of the Ash character and the company backstory became the backstory of all the later Alien franchise movies. In an Alien movie commentary Ridley Scott pointed this out.
I remember O'Bannon talking about the Ash twist on the commentary. Unlike Shusett, who liked the twist, O'Bannon said that it reminded him too much of "there's a secret Russian in our submarine" plots and that the movie didn't need a secondary antagonist or threat. He also said that the sequence was fantastic in its execution, calling it something like "a bad idea beautifully directed by Ridley and wonderfully acted by Ian Holm."
I have broken this down for folks on some of our live streams, and it's great how you put it all into one video. I was lucky to have been friends with Ron Shussett for years, back int the '80s and '90s, and got many stories from him. Man, I love your videos.
It's probably fair to say that all four writers deserve some credit, Bannon and Shusett for the original story and Hill and Giler for additional development. The android, the female lead, the evil corporation, these are all good stuff. Creative work is like that - things are often fluid and progress is made in steps. Not all ideas are good but their authors are often not in a position to see it because it's their ideas and they like them. That's where other people come into play - other people in this case being Hill and Giler but probably also Scott and a few others. Many people work on a film. All this being said, it's important to realize that a script is not a film. Alien is remarkable for the visuals and credit for this must be given to Scott and Giger. In the hands of a different director and without Giger, it would have been a very different film. Think of how different Aliens is compared to Alien, and yet Cameron's work was based on the first film and he maintained it's general visual style. Now imagine if Cameron worked from scratch on Alien instead of Scott and think of Avatar.
Loving your continuing coverage of Alien, thanks! Perhaps you cover this in the supplemental material, or will cover it later, but Hill's "haiku" script/rewrite of Alien has garnered a level of fame as the epitome of a stripped down script.
The script (and subsequent film obviously) could have turned out to be a real stinker with so many cooks however I get the feeling everyone knew this was going to be something different, something really special. Hence I guess most of the rewrites and changes were done with a real passion to get it right (and with some fear that they didn't want to mess it up). Superb content as always!
Great summary. As a long-time fan of Alien, this is surely one of the least edifying aspects of the brilliant collaborative success that the movie is known for. Everything from the future and alien aesthetic, to the costumes and production design, the music and incredible sound effects, and the A-game editing of Terry Rawlings, it's all a great advert for the collaborative partnership between creatives, producers and the technical and marketing teams. This particular chapter, the basically 'who did what and who should get credit' issue has been bubbling under since the 1979 Cinefantastique coverage aired the dirty laundry, and unfortunately subtracts from the burnish that the whole Alien production rightly deserves. That it turned out as good as it did is testament to it becoming greater than the sum of its parts, and hearing O'Bannon snipe at the Producers and hearing the Brandywine team downplay O'Bannon's contribution so long after the fact is disappointingly mundane. 'Success has many fathers' indeed.
I'm glad they combined the ship and the egg repository. The size of that chamber bothered me until I thought of something: what if the Space Jockeys were also exploring/exploiting minerals? Maybe they had an orbital GPR which picked up a huge cavity on LV-426, and they set down right on top of it to begin checking it out...
Agree, "Dark Star" is also one of my favorite movies. Always thought this Alien was orginally the beachball prop alien from "Dark Star" Pinback (Dan O'Bannon deflated. O'Bannon bought attention to H.H. Geiger which for me made the movie similiar to Moebius and "Bladerunner" O'Bannon was associated with.
Even though O'Bannon probably doesn't deserve %100 writer credit, he crucially got Ridley to include Giger, Cobb, and Foss in for the design work that defines the look of the film. I'd say that essential contribution is worth an FX consultant credit. Amazing how many key connections have to happen for a great film like this to be created.
Certainly the corporate paranoia,and Ash came from David Giler,who wrote The Parallax View-1974,a top tier 70's conspiracy film.Right there with The Conversation &Winter Kills for me:)
@@davidlean1060 Oh yeah,wise guy who is NOT david lean-Technically it's a quartet quintet,that extended well into the 80's &90's:)Klute,ATPM,TPV,Presumed Innocent&The Pelican Brief.Cut.Print:)
@@ryangettig274 Well, I am, I'm just not THAT David Lean. I presume you don't have Ryangettig247 on your passport either, so there's a pair of us in it lol
@@davidlean1060 Season's Blessings-I wish Pakula was still making pictures,instead we get FreeWilly In Space Smurf shite from someone who used to be James Cameron.
@@ryangettig274 Shame alright. I fondly remember watching those 3 films with my old man when I was only about 12 or 13. The old man, who is long gone now, saw great films as a means to an education! Want to learn about the coruption of powerful men, watch a Pakula film. Want to learn about escaping the yolk of powerful men and becoming your own man, watch a Kubrick movie and so on....
Another link to Star Wars not mentioned here, is that Dan O'Bannon had a Computer FX company which supplied graphic displays for the Death Star's approach on Yavin at the end of the movie.
@nicksterj Larry Cuba concentrated on the Trench Run ( took him about a year!) The perspective view only. Another company did the side view, with traditional animation.
If you ever make a film, it will be genius Tyler. You tell us more about the intricacies about film-making than anybody I've ever come across. If anyone with any clout is reading this, this chap deserves his own series/show.
Directing is a whole different ballgame. Not saying Tyler wouldn’t be good at it, but people like Kubrick, Coppola and Peter Jackson have insane organizational skills and work ethics
Enjoyed your video very much. All of your videos come from a place of enthusiasm and deep interest, but also knowledge. You credit sources as no other movie UA-camr I know does. The battle was published in Cinefantastique and elsewhere in 1979. The O'Bannon draft IS the movie's story (minus some additions), but Walter Hill in particular redid almost every line of dialog. The Writer's Guild decides authorship by looking at all the submitted scripts without the author's name(s). Even at the time, pretty much everyone agreed that Hill's draft was much crisper--his scriptwriting style is punch and sharp. Scenes Hill added REALLY changed things--at one point, there was no ALIEN in the damned thing--it was a creature made by HUMANS on a now-abandoned secret base. I admire O'Bannon and think he was treated shabbily--imagine the fan reaction to the various mistreatment of Roddenberry and Lucas among others. He was a pain on the original, but if he'd come along a little later, and had better publicity, things might not have gone so badly for him. OTOH, there's no way O'Bannon deserved solo screenplay credit. Read Hill's drafts. As Scott said at the time, if they went with the original idea of MOTHER they'd have to credit Stanley Kubrick. Hill then split MOTHER into the computer and Ash. I think people need and want One Creator of the properties we like. But it's not simple, especially not years later. But while we think of these movies as being Lucas movies or Spielberg movies or Scott or Cameron movies, there are multiple names under the Written By credits, and various 'producer' types who may have gotten those credits for a polish or two. All those names on the screen for ten minutes at the end are there for a reason.
Walter Hill and David Giler did a rewrite to punch up the dialogue. You wouldn't even believe me about the stories in Hollywood about writers getting credit and not getting credit. In any event Walter Hill's movie typically have very lean, spartan dialogue. You better believe Eddie Murphy ad libbed most of his stuff in 48 hours.
Ah Spaceballs. "I knew it I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing assholes" may be the funniest line I've ever heard. It was set up perfectly and it was delivered with such sincerity. Just great stuff.
I don't know if he mis-spoke, or just poorly informed. It was Lambert and Parker who had a scene where they were 'making out' while Kane's corpse floats past outside.
I rarely watch TV, but flicked around last night to find Alien playing. In standard definition, aspect ratio blown, channel watermark in the corner, pop up ads and of course ad breaks. So horrific I turned it off immediately.
The cold (albeit modulated) sound of Holm''s delivery in, "I can't lie to you about your chances. You have my deepest sympathies" always put a chill up my spine.
Obannons script is really not that different from the finished film, having read it. Very few of Hill and Gilers big ideas to fix the story ended up in the finished product outside of new dialogue - a lot of them are pretty stock and feel poorly thought out. Punching up the dialogue was really all that it needed.
Yeah but dialogue is pretty significant to the final product, ppl still harp on the amazing characters and realistic dialogue as the one thing that sets this film apart from all others and a measure by which future movies usually fall short. Without these characters being so well-realised there’d be so little punch in the deaths. ‘Just punching up dialogue’ is way more important than u make it out to be, a slashers a slasher, this becomes more than that with actual people rather than meatbags. But then again im not 100% well-versed in O’Bannon’s rendition of the characters, so maybe his dialogue/characters was fine enough
Yeah but dialogue is pretty significant to the final product, ppl still harp on the amazing characters and realistic dialogue as the one thing that sets this film apart from all others and a measure by which future movies usually fall short. Without these characters being so well-realised there’d be so little punch in the deaths. ‘Just punching up dialogue’ is way more important than u make it out to be, a slashers a slasher, this becomes more than that with actual people rather than meatbags. But then again im not 100% well-versed in O’Bannon’s rendition of the characters, so maybe his dialogue/characters was fine enough
Planet of Vampires is where they lifted the story, including the alien surviving at the end. A lot of the visual elements were lifted from the Mario Bava film as well.
_Dark Star_ and "Gremlins" from _Heavy Metal_ presage _Alien_ . O'Bannon's vision, yes, but all praise to the incomparably talented collaborators, crew, and cast for taking what started as a genre film as far as it could possibly go. That's real SF!
There was already a cat in the first O'Bannon's draft (i don't remember if her name was Jones) and the startling scène where it's mistaken for the creature was already there right from the start.
I believe Giler and Carroll's involvement in Alien 3, Alien: Resurrection, AVP: Alien vs. Predator, and even the belated sequels, tells us everything we need to know about who were the real creative brains behind Alien... and that was Dan O'Bannon and Ron Shusett. As for Walter Hill, Gordon Carroll and David Giler, they were very good script polishers.
I couldn't agree more. It was the idea of O'Bannon to begin with, later having the contribution of his good friend Shusett, that made Alien the story that is was. Any alterations made by anyone after the script was finished might be acknowledged but Hill, Guyler and Caroll always come across as saying that Alien would have been nothing without them. The arrogance of these talentless money-men always get my back up.
@@CMDR_Verm Waler Hill is far from talentless, and has many classic scripts and films go his name. Dude literally invented the modern buddy cop movie.
@@21stcenturyhiphop ...and The Driver has been influencing film makers like JIm Cameron and Nick Refn since its release in the 70s. The Warriors too. Although not a fav of mine, that film still has a huge cult following. He was far from a maker of 'tough guy movies', to quote O'Bannon.
Interestingly, it was Ronald Shusett who had the idea of how to get the alien aboard the ship (the monster screws one of the crew and later comes bursting out of him) and Ron Cobb came up with the idea of acid for blood.
Hill and giler did the rewritings to get o'bannon out of the writing credits, with that base i solely believe o'bannon's story, they tried to rip him off and couldn't, he even said that the ash character was their idea if im not mistaken, and i take his word over any producer, also the sex scene was between ripley and dallas not ash, he was the one to get giger, who was introduced to him by Giraud aka Moebius, heck he even wrote The Long Tomorrow witch was the inspiration for blade run (the revolutionary sci-fi movie!) so he wasn't just the writer, he also created the visual themes, he got the alien creature design from giger and the sci-fy elemnts from other people he collaborated with! He said that te final script was more than 80% of to the original, witch if you count the deleated scenes is practically all of the original, dan has been stomped by the industry countless times, he was a great writer, a trully sci-fi geek, a great director and also created the speacial effects that star wars later riped off (or maybe he did them as he is credited as the computer special effects for the movie)
Weaver had a really strong point about the logical improbability of the sequel. Why would a person, after going through something like this, ever want to go in space again? In the sequel, they said "you can fly again", like that is some super desired job (didnt look like that in the original). Also, in the sequel, Ripley character agreed to go back "to be sure" aliens are dead or to kill them or sth. That weakens her character, turning her from a beliveable person into a more of a comic book character.
I'm glad you're not doing wall to wall Kubrick videos anymore. Your videos are excellent. But I can only handle so many Kubrick stories. I'm glad you're finally using your talents to tell other stories. ;-)
Dan OBannon is the original writer . The Walter Hill and the other 2 producers tried the rewrite moves to actually take credit away from OBannon from all the rewites .
O'Bannon may have been overbearing and hard to work with, but don't forget that the script rewriters tried to claim primary credit on the script and, by their own account, just coldly welcomed O'Bannon to deal with it in arbitration as their only response when he understandably objected. But then that backfired on them when arbitration found in favor of O'Bannon.
I don't think this is true. The shot of the Hill/Giler script in this video only shows the top of the title page which has Alien, screenplay by Hill/Giler (11:38). Later on (15:23), you see the bottom of the page which has "based on screenplay by Dan O'Bannon, etc." They can type whatever they want on their page, but in the end, the WGAw will decide who gets what in arbitration.
@@dsolosan Yes, that is right, my recollection though was taken from another account in which Giler himself references an exchange with O'Bannon on this and his own saying at that point that it would have to go to arbitration. Unfortunately, I can't seem to presently find where that is on the DVD extras etc., but I do recall it. In the Fox Making Of video, as you may recall, O'Bannon cynically claims that Giler and Hill were just making arbitrary changes to attempt to take more credit, while Giler literally claims to have rewritten the whole script from "top to bottom." Meanwhile, Ron Shusett contradicts this, downplaying their script changes. Obviously, both sides have their own point of view and agendas. I imagine that the truth lies somewhere in-between.
A lot of the writing was not technically written, it developed from others involved giving their professional and artistic input while in the production and design process. But someone has to be given the credit for the initial concept/idea(s) that started the whole thing off.
12:38 looks like my post was deleted. Regardless, I guess it was the 1977 Walter Hill script that has these story elements (as it was the more staccato Hill and Giler script in 1978 that introduced Ash in place of Mother)... I know Cinefantastique Vol.9 Issue 1 has an excellent set of articles on *Alien,* including excerpts of this early Walter Hill script. If anyone has a copy or PDF of this script, please let us know.
I don't see why people love Aliens more than Alien, two different films but the first is way more thought provoking and got so many things going on for it, while Aliens is an action film with jump scares.
All the credit is bullshit, Ridley brought together amazing artists to tweak the look and feel of the film and nailed the execution but he didn’t come up with half of it
*The android David wrote the script after coming back in time with his space flute and dictating it to O'Bannon who typed it out* 'I'll blow you do the fingering'
I see what you did there! The word 'lie' in Alien. Clever! Just a point. I like your video's but personally would prefer to listen to your unique voice and what you've got to say, rather than distracting/ irritating background music. That's my pennies worth from over here 🇬🇧 Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, which ever you prefer. LOL
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I read O'Bannon's screenplay a few years back. Recall being shocked at how much of the finished film O'Bannon hadn't written. Also remember thinking it was pretty flat and seemed like a shameless rewrite of "It! The Terror From Beyond Space." Hill and Giler performed a miracle and saved the show.
That original script is such a chore to read. If I remember correctly, the only bit of dialogue which made it through the countless re-writes, is proto-Ripley's attempt to assert authority and stop the facehugger being brought aboard. Of course other than those few lines, it's really nothing like the final scene, because Ash (who defies her) was a later addition.
I've read so many different Alien scripts. I love that some of it came about in Prometheus. Im enthralled by the idea of androids in conjunction with the alien franchise and bladerunner.
The video you just watched was just on the rewrite by Hill and Giler. This is the video on O'Bannon writing the original script and talks about 'Memory': ua-cam.com/video/X2JT0wqFp44/v-deo.html Sorry for the confusion.
CT are you comparing Dan O'Bannon to his character Pinback in "Dark Star" ? :) *Thanks* for showing how it takes a team to produce a movie even thro' Dan O'Bannon was the orginal creative force (not that O'Bannon didn't have his influences). Then again a camel is a horse designed by a committee. The writing and story are important but H.H. Geiger made "Aliens" just as Moebius made "Bladerunner"* visually memorable, both associated with O'Bannon. Always thought the Alien here was a takeoff of the beachball pet Alien in "Darkstar". * After reading Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" consider it amazing "Bladerunner" came out as well as it did. Dick's cold story is something a meth head would come up with.
You can call me out for being a supporter of the underdog but I think Dan O'Bannon got a raw deal throughout his career. He provided the ideas which other's then tried to steal from him and put him down as a moaner or money-grabber. Let's be honest, it was because of Dark Star that Alejandro Jodorowsky called O'Bannon in to design aspects of his Dune project - not these Brandywine moneymen or John Carpenter (no disrespect to him). After Dune's failure, O'Bannon went home and picked up a script he'd been working on (Star Beast as Alien was originally entitled) but on which he'd reached an impass. Shusett helped him out with the facehugger concept to move the story along and there you go. To add a bit more detail, it was whilst working on Dune that O'Bannon had been introduced to the work of Giger and he convinced Ridley Scott to use Giger for the alien design etc. The studio fought this as they thought Giger was too extreme but Scott stuck to his guns. Rather than Hill, Giler and Carroll claim credit, it sounds to me that if it were left to them, Alien would never had existed. Every time I read of their supposed involvement I just get angry. I think their characters were summed up in ''Aliens'' as Carter Burke. Believe it or not, that only just occurred to me.
In the real world, all movie scrips evolve. Everyone involved in the finished film must work as a Team to produce a movie. Movies of the past had very short credits. Today's movies have page after page of credits. This is easy to see with the long list of directors and producers in the movie credits. All writers should be in the credits. If one writer, like O'Bannon, demands top billing, I would modify the credits. I would list all writers alphabetically in the credits under Scrip Writers. To satisfy O'Bannon's ego, he would be last under the word AND.
Oh brother. Hill and Giler did NOT write Alien. The WGA made the definitive and correct assessment in regards to writing credits. There is a HUGE difference between writing a story/screenplay (conception, genre/aesthetic, characters, plot, themes, archetypes, villains, heroes, conflicts, structure, crisis, resolution) - and "punching up" dialogue and "making it sexy" (what Hill and Giler specialized in). O'Bannon was thoroughly steeped in the sci-fi genre/aesthetic - Hill specialized in Westerns. The WGA evaluated all screenplays thoroughly and determined it was definitively O'Bannon's creation. Changing characters names, switching which character got infected, switching characters death order - that doesn't get you a writing credit. O'Bannon had no issues at all sharing story credits with Schusett. Director Scott enjoyed having O'Bannon around - it was O'Bannon who convinced Scott to pursue Giger for the Oscar winning Alien design.
In a 2004 interview in Film International #12, Walter Hill described his initial impression of O'Bannon's screenplay: "We believed if you got rid of a lot of the junk - they had pyramids and hieroglyphics on the planetoid, a lot of von Daniken crap, and a lot of bad dialogue - that what you would have left might be a very good, very primal space story." Hill summarizes precisely the scope of his affect on the screenplay: removed a few non-essential elements and "punched up" the dialogue (for what O'Bannon had already, as it turns out, was THE primal space story).
The real crux of the screenplay writing contention is The Corporation/Ash (added by Hill and Giler). The Corporation does NOT warrant a screenplay credit. Kubrik's 2001 Space Odessy came out 11 years before Alien - a subversive/conniving AI killing off a space crew had already been done. I understand why O'Bannon resented the insertion of Ash; imagine you wrote the screenplay for Jaws (1975), and then producers inserted a character who chums the water and pushes crew mates overboard - because he doesn't like the beaches being closed. I truly love the Ash character - primarily because Ian Holmes is PHENOMENAL; hell, the entire cast crushed it. But if you take Ash/The Corporation out of the screenplay, what do you lose? A subplot - you lose The Corporation - that's it. The greedy mayor/town council in Jaws, who certainly frustrate the protagnoist and prolongs the shark's massacre - never upstages the main threat: the shark. Hill and Giler toed-the-line with upstaging O'Bannon's Alien with their own precious creation (The Corporation). Sure, The Corporation made for some tense moments - but I have to stress that The Corporation/Ash could have been left out of this film entirely. The Corporation/Ash is needed about as much as the damn cat; both were devices which kept things moving - but you didn't NEED the cat in the movie. Hill and Giler would like you to imagine they miraculously "polished a turd" - it was more like they smelted O'Bannon's gold ore, and Scott forged a solid gold bar out of it.
Why draw direct comparisons between Jaws and Alien? Because Hill/Giler got the contract by pitching Alien to every studio as "JAWS IN SPACE". This true story resulted in Charles Harris using the pitch phrase as the title to his book on "powerful pitching for film and tv screenwriters". I won't give Hill/Giler credit for themes/subplots they directly lifted from a HUGE blockbuster that happened just 4 years prior to Alien. In Jaws, the movie diverged greatly from Benchley's novel on several large sub-plots (the mafia, Hooper and Brody's wife!), including changes to who d!es and how the shark is ended - and all the changes worked great. And Benchley was one of the screenwriters making these changes to his own story. Toning down and greatly reducing subplots and peripheral conflicts truly kept the monster the main focus. Hill/Giler basically added a "mayor/town council" to O'Bannon's Alien in the form of "Ash/The Coporation"; except in Jaws, you never saw the mayor try to kill Brody (with a dirty mag).
In every discussion about sequels post Alien - Hill and Giler were ALWAYS pushing The Corporation - whereas Scott had always wanted to explore the Aliens origin/nature. O'Bannon has been fully vindicated - fans are unanimous that the franchise declined sharply immediately after the second film. In the 2nd film (James Cameron, who LOVED Alien), we get plenty of Aliens, and the android theme is limited to a pedantic dichotomy of slimeball Corporate-shill-sub-human Burke & tin-man-with-a-"heart" Bishop - what a a switcheroo, right! As the franchise continued into films 3 and 4 (both fully Hill and Giler's responsibility), the "center did not hold" - there was now an entrenched dissonance; how can you experience deep cosmic space horror about a monster that Hill/Giler's villain (The Corportation) has commodified? Here we are, 4 decades deep into the franchise - with an android STILL stabbing the crew in the back and reporting to Corporate. Hill's 2004 disdain for the supposed "von Daniken cr@p" he thought existed in O'Bannon's screenplay is pure irony: where has the entire franchise ended up? Fully submerged in (per Hill's criteria) "van Daniken cr@p". Prometheus is full-bore "Chariots of the Gods" (cave paintings, star-maps, Engineers mad about Jesus...). Both of the AvP movies (Hill and Giler produced): full-bore "van Daniken" (Predators taught humans to build pyramids, tribes worship Predators as gods and provide human sacrifices to them).
One of the worst and most unfair "arbitrations" in WGA history. Without Hill's and Giler's contributions, Alien would not be Alien. Giler wrote Ash's great monologue one morning en route to the studio. They came up with the "truckers in space" concept, changing 2 characters to women including Ripley, killing off Dallas early (a la Psycho), and the dialogue. I've read O'Bannon's script and it's truly terrible.
Seems like some cinematic treasure comes about due to almost chaotic/accidental confluence of good inputs. Blade Runner is the same. The original source material is cringe but somehow, gold came from Scott's creative process. It's a pity Scott lost that magic touch.
I wish you had spent more time on the influence of Giger on the look of the alien and other aspects of its homeworld and how much it was carried through to the following films.
The addition of the whole twist with Ash being an android and the company knowing about the derelict all along creates 2 problems that I've never really heard anyone acknowledge. 1. Ash doesn't go on the mission to explore the alien ship. The only scientist (and apparently the only medic) on this crew of space-truckers doesn't go with them to respond to a signal that _could_ be an S.O.S. and _could_ be extra-terrestrial, as far as the rest of the crew is concerned. Either way, you figure this would be his time to shine. And Dallas should be figuring that too. Instead, he brings Lambert... because somebody needs to be there to complain, I guess. Meanwhile Ash, whose mission is "Bring back lifeform, priority 1. All other priorities are rescinded," takes it on blind faith that one, and _only_ one, of the away party is gonna get a face-hugger... and everything goes exactly according to plan. If all 3 of them got face-hugger-ed, there would be no one to drag anybody back to the ship. If Dallas took one look at the Space-Jockey and said "This thing is fossilized. There's no one and nothing here that needs saving. And even if they were still alive, I doubt they would look at us as peers or allies. Let's go back to the ship now that we've fulfilled our contractual obligations," then Ash's mission fails. And why doesn't he go, according to the script? Well, because somebody needed to push the button to let the team back in. A surface-level issue that is introduced and put to bed in the very same scene. It feels like a band-aid, but at least they went to the trouble to put a band-aid on that issue, unlike the other one. 2. Ash doesn't even try to freeze Kane. Instead of trying to "bring back lifeform" in a nice convenient package, he opts to let it go ahead and be birthed even though he's absolutely certain it's going to kill everyone and has no reason to believe it's going to spare him. So, what does he think is gonna happen when all the crew is dead? Who's gonna stop the ship when it gets near Earth in 10 months? Remote control? Because that's never mentioned. If they can control their ships remotely then what the hell do they even need (to pay) a crew for? And who's gonna go on board and try and wrangle the thing? Ash's devious plan has no "plan" in it. It feels very much like this is a symptom of this twist being an 11th hour addition. See, they needed/wanted the chest-burster to come out at dinner, not while Kane is unconscious and being put into cryogenic sleep. That scene was the centerpiece of the whole script, and they weren't about to throw it out so that the newly added twist would make more sense. They could've covered this glaring issue with another band-aid. They could've given Ash a line while the remaining 3 crew members questioned him. Parker could ask (for the 3rd time) "Why didn't you just freeze Kane?" And he could've responded "It seems my orders are conflicting with my core programming, and I'm afraid it's led to some poor decisions on my part." But they didn't. We're left to assume that this clusterfuck of a plan (which results in total failure _and_ the loss of the ship and payload) is his plan A ... and there never was a plan B.
Watching the behind the scenes interviews and seeing Bannon talk always fascinated me. Just seeing his lack of self awareness, bitterness towards script changes. He was unable to accept that what he wrote was b-movie schlock. Alien is the example I always mention when talking about how scripts are really just a blueprint, without the casting, design & direction, Alien would have been forgotten IMO. Which some memorable lines as "we'll blow that fucker into space." The script itself is still the weakest part of the whole. Love your work Tyler!
It's not a blueprint. It's a heart beat. The other stuff you mentioned is organs. Producers see a script and decide to make it alive. The blueprint is the financing
Dam dude I had no idea that having a female Lead was such a major movie . I grew up with alien being a major staple so leanings all of this and seeing clips of the interviews it makes me Wonder if society was on the right path and then people Started bitching about nonsense and now We are back sliding
Hill and Giler definitely made the script the huge success it became but it was Ridley's direction that made it a classic sci-fi-horror movie that launched a huge franchise.
Read the book in the 70s i think by alan dean foster also C.T. watch the 50s b film "it the thing from beyond space" you'll see where the idea came from.
@@davidlean1060: The novel was commissioned and written while the project was still filming. All novelizations are merch support for the movie, and hopefully profit for the book publishers.
I read both of the scripts side by side, jumping between them after each scene. The story structure and plot points are very similar between O'bannons script and the Hill/Giler rewrite, but the characterization is much different. Dan O'bannon comes up with great ideas and does a really good job at structuring the screenplay, but the weakest elements are definitely the characters and dialogue. The characters are very one note and the dialogue feels pulpy, like a 50's sci fi cartoon.
All in all, I think both parties deserve the credit for making the script what it is. Dan O'bannon laid the groundwork and Hill/Giler spiced it up to make it even more memorable.
I have said this on an earlier Tyler video. When you read O'Bannon's script, you see in your mind's eye a Rodger Corman movie. When you read the finished script, you see the movie itself in your head. O'Bannon, bless him, was needlessly chippy and precious about the entire thing. It happens I guess. The entertainment industry as a whole is full of stories about artists getting ripped off and 'rat f**ked', but Dan was unfair on the Brandywine trio. Walter HIll, for example, is far more than a maker of 'tough guy movies', to quote O'Bannon. Have your doubts at the time, but one reason I like Hampton Fancher is he admits that the writing of Blade Runner had to be taken away from him. When he saw the film, he realized, 'Ridley was totally right'. It's a shame Dan couldn't come to the same conclusion afer the saw how succesful the film became. I'd like to think he enjoyed his success. One project set him up for life and not many can boast that. Despite his misgivings at the time, I hope he realized how lucky he was and celebrated it.
Hill/Giler also did a rewrite on Star Wars (together with Katz & Hayword)
I agree with O'Bannon that Walter Hill and his company tried to rip him and Ronald off .
@@davidlean1060 O' Bannon is a great writer, bit his version of Alien is bad, as far as scripts are concerned. Hill and Giler's version is superior in every way, but O'Bannon's ideas are sound. I don't think O'Bannon was quite ready to make films within the Hollywood system yet, but I do believe he grew creatively from his experience on Alien; his subsequent scripts are leaps and bounds better.
You may be right... but I also find that dialogue often reads as more "pulpy"/"cheesy" whatever when you haven't heard it read outloud by a talented actor. All of the lines in the re-write you probably read in your head with the same voice as the actors in the film gave to them. In the same way that there are some lines from the original Star Wars that, on paper, are absolutely horrible. But... coming from the lips of gifted actors like Harrison Ford, James Earl Jones, or Carrie Fisher... they become memorable and quotable.
I can't blame O'Bannon for being so enthusiastic during the film's production, the guy was practically living in poverty before they bought the script.
He seemed really distraught on the quadrilody. Driving around all night and referring to it as “his” movie.
Sounds complicated but O’Bannon didn’t sound like he was the easiest person to work with.
O’Bannon had felt that he had been shorted on credit in some ways. He said that John Carpenter walked away with most of the credit for DARK STAR due to his being director. I don’t think Giler and Hill had much respect for him either, based on interviews I’ve seen. O’Bannon said he and Shusett were disturbed by a lot of the swearing and other adult content that they said was inserted by Giler/Hill and that when Ridley Scott was hired, they ran up and gave him a copy of the original script. Ridley looked at it and said, “Yes, we definitely need to go back to the first way.” O’Bannon said after that, the film became a battle between two camps..one wanting one version of the film and the other camp wanting another. O’Bannon and Shusett wrote the first screenplay for what later became TOTAL RECALL. He went through the wringer on that, as well as having to fight for his cut of his Lovecraft adaptation, THE RESURRECTED. He died of stomach cancer, Chrones Disease or cancer of the intestines or something along those lines, so there’s a good chance he was in physical discomfort most of the time, which probably makes him come across as bitter…and he might have actually been bitter. I think he was kind of naive about Hollywood and the compromises that must be made if a film is to get made. However, he had a pretty bad falling out with Ron Shusett over the TOTAL RECALL property, and had pretty huge disagreements on RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD (1985) as well, so it’s possible he was just prickly hard to deal with. Anyway, another slam hit out of the park by Cinema Tyler. Great job telling the story. Obviously you went back to the original interviews O’Bannon gave to Starlog and Fantastic Films at the time of the release of ALIEN in 1979.
@@biffmercury It's funny you mentioned Starlog and Fantastic Films. Both magazines featured articles and amazing photo spreads of the film production before ALIEN came out. I was all in for the movie when I saw them.👍
@@hendrsb33 Same here. Those magazines had me hyped up for new releases for months. What a great time to grow up in.
@@biffmercury TBH, the sequel-ization of my favorite older movies makes me feel old and jaded sometimes. I don't have the same interest in movies anymore because I feel I've seen it all-- over and over again. I can't believe I now think of ALIEN as an old classic.🖖
I still think that the start/stop destruction sequence of the Nostromo by Ripley is what really gave me major amounts of stress...
And the landing in LV 426, that soundtrack is just fantastic...
I was 8 years old
I was and still am a sci fi boy at heart
But nothing compares to the fear you feel playing the original Alien board game, from Kenner. It really recreates the suspenseful terror of the movie.
The acid for blood came from Ron Cobb, one of the concept designers of ALIEN. Overall, I think ALIEN was improved because of the changes made, including making Ripley a woman.
Ron Cobb is one of the greatest designers IMO too.
And Obanon more or less brought that dream team of geniuses to Alien: Cobb, Giger, Moebius, so he also deserves credit for that
@@blackout198341that made alien, all the talent would've made a great movie but not alien.
The addition by Hill and Giler of the Ash character and the company backstory became the backstory of all the later Alien franchise movies. In an Alien movie commentary Ridley Scott pointed this out.
I remember O'Bannon talking about the Ash twist on the commentary. Unlike Shusett, who liked the twist, O'Bannon said that it reminded him too much of "there's a secret Russian in our submarine" plots and that the movie didn't need a secondary antagonist or threat. He also said that the sequence was fantastic in its execution, calling it something like "a bad idea beautifully directed by Ridley and wonderfully acted by Ian Holm."
well it's good thing they got rid of 70% of the crap dan came up with, right?
I have broken this down for folks on some of our live streams, and it's great how you put it all into one video.
I was lucky to have been friends with Ron Shussett for years, back int the '80s and '90s, and got many stories from him.
Man, I love your videos.
It's probably fair to say that all four writers deserve some credit, Bannon and Shusett for the original story and Hill and Giler for additional development. The android, the female lead, the evil corporation, these are all good stuff. Creative work is like that - things are often fluid and progress is made in steps. Not all ideas are good but their authors are often not in a position to see it because it's their ideas and they like them. That's where other people come into play - other people in this case being Hill and Giler but probably also Scott and a few others. Many people work on a film. All this being said, it's important to realize that a script is not a film. Alien is remarkable for the visuals and credit for this must be given to Scott and Giger. In the hands of a different director and without Giger, it would have been a very different film. Think of how different Aliens is compared to Alien, and yet Cameron's work was based on the first film and he maintained it's general visual style. Now imagine if Cameron worked from scratch on Alien instead of Scott and think of Avatar.
0:42 - Okay, zooming into the title so it says LIE is too fricken clever.
RIP Alan Ladd Jr. 1937-2022
Loving your continuing coverage of Alien, thanks! Perhaps you cover this in the supplemental material, or will cover it later, but Hill's "haiku" script/rewrite of Alien has garnered a level of fame as the epitome of a stripped down script.
This went straight into my Watch Again playlist even before I watched the blessed thing! Cinema Tyler is essential viewing, always.
Agreed
thanks for the copyright on the portrait I made of him, most of people don't put it ^^
The script (and subsequent film obviously) could have turned out to be a real stinker with so many cooks however I get the feeling everyone knew this was going to be something different, something really special. Hence I guess most of the rewrites and changes were done with a real passion to get it right (and with some fear that they didn't want to mess it up).
Superb content as always!
Now you're dipping into my real obsessions. oh joy
Great summary. As a long-time fan of Alien, this is surely one of the least edifying aspects of the brilliant collaborative success that the movie is known for. Everything from the future and alien aesthetic, to the costumes and production design, the music and incredible sound effects, and the A-game editing of Terry Rawlings, it's all a great advert for the collaborative partnership between creatives, producers and the technical and marketing teams. This particular chapter, the basically 'who did what and who should get credit' issue has been bubbling under since the 1979 Cinefantastique coverage aired the dirty laundry, and unfortunately subtracts from the burnish that the whole Alien production rightly deserves. That it turned out as good as it did is testament to it becoming greater than the sum of its parts, and hearing O'Bannon snipe at the Producers and hearing the Brandywine team downplay O'Bannon's contribution so long after the fact is disappointingly mundane. 'Success has many fathers' indeed.
I'm glad they combined the ship and the egg repository. The size of that chamber bothered me until I thought of something: what if the Space Jockeys were also exploring/exploiting minerals? Maybe they had an orbital GPR which picked up a huge cavity on LV-426, and they set down right on top of it to begin checking it out...
One of my all time favourite movies, so glad it was released the way it did.
I will always associate Dan O'bannon with "Dark Star" one of my favorite movies.
Yes! And in 'Dark Star' there are seeds of Alien right there for all to see, including hunting an alien in the maintenance ducts!
Don't forget Return of the Living Dead.
Agree, "Dark Star" is also one of my favorite movies.
Always thought this Alien was orginally the beachball prop alien from "Dark Star" Pinback (Dan O'Bannon deflated.
O'Bannon bought attention to H.H. Geiger which for me made the movie similiar to Moebius and "Bladerunner" O'Bannon was associated with.
Beautiful breakdown of film history as always.
Even though O'Bannon probably doesn't deserve %100 writer credit, he crucially got Ridley to include Giger, Cobb, and Foss in for the design work that defines the look of the film. I'd say that essential contribution is worth an FX consultant credit. Amazing how many key connections have to happen for a great film like this to be created.
well, he definitely doesn't deserve "%100 writer credit". what about walter hill and david giler?
Certainly the corporate paranoia,and Ash came from David Giler,who wrote The Parallax View-1974,a top tier 70's conspiracy film.Right there with The Conversation &Winter Kills for me:)
You name one of Alan J Pakula's Conspiracy Trilogy and then fal to mention the other conspiracy classic he made, All The President's Men! Tut tut ;)
@@davidlean1060 Oh yeah,wise guy who is NOT david lean-Technically it's a quartet quintet,that extended well into the 80's &90's:)Klute,ATPM,TPV,Presumed Innocent&The Pelican Brief.Cut.Print:)
@@ryangettig274 Well, I am, I'm just not THAT David Lean. I presume you don't have Ryangettig247 on your passport either, so there's a pair of us in it lol
@@davidlean1060 Season's Blessings-I wish Pakula was still making pictures,instead we get FreeWilly In Space Smurf shite from someone who used to be James Cameron.
@@ryangettig274 Shame alright. I fondly remember watching those 3 films with my old man when I was only about 12 or 13. The old man, who is long gone now, saw great films as a means to an education! Want to learn about the coruption of powerful men, watch a Pakula film. Want to learn about escaping the yolk of powerful men and becoming your own man, watch a Kubrick movie and so on....
Another link to Star Wars not mentioned here, is that Dan O'Bannon had a Computer FX company
which supplied graphic displays for the Death Star's approach on Yavin at the end of the movie.
@nicksterj
Larry Cuba concentrated on the Trench Run ( took him about a year!) The perspective view only. Another company did the side view, with traditional animation.
@nicksterj
no probz from one Star Wars geek to another!
:-0
If you ever make a film, it will be genius Tyler. You tell us more about the intricacies about film-making than anybody I've ever come across. If anyone with any clout is reading this, this chap deserves his own series/show.
I don't know, man. The RLM guys know a lot about film as well...and they made Space Cop.
Whatever film he made, it would be worth watching just for the hours and hours of top notch "behind the scenes" extra content.
Directing films and analysing films require some different skills.
Directing is a whole different ballgame. Not saying Tyler wouldn’t be good at it, but people like Kubrick, Coppola and Peter Jackson have insane organizational skills and work ethics
@@Poopscipade That's a very good point!
I've been waiting for this!
I'm a big Alien fan and there were Nuggets in your video I hadn't heard before. AWESOME!
Criminally low views for this brilliant and well-crafted video
13:12 God Bless you for this sweet, Simpsons throwback.
Enjoyed your video very much. All of your videos come from a place of enthusiasm and deep interest, but also knowledge. You credit sources as no other movie UA-camr I know does.
The battle was published in Cinefantastique and elsewhere in 1979. The O'Bannon draft IS the movie's story (minus some additions), but Walter Hill in particular redid almost every line of dialog. The Writer's Guild decides authorship by looking at all the submitted scripts without the author's name(s). Even at the time, pretty much everyone agreed that Hill's draft was much crisper--his scriptwriting style is punch and sharp. Scenes Hill added REALLY changed things--at one point, there was no ALIEN in the damned thing--it was a creature made by HUMANS on a now-abandoned secret base.
I admire O'Bannon and think he was treated shabbily--imagine the fan reaction to the various mistreatment of Roddenberry and Lucas among others. He was a pain on the original, but if he'd come along a little later, and had better publicity, things might not have gone so badly for him.
OTOH, there's no way O'Bannon deserved solo screenplay credit. Read Hill's drafts. As Scott said at the time, if they went with the original idea of MOTHER they'd have to credit Stanley Kubrick. Hill then split MOTHER into the computer and Ash.
I think people need and want One Creator of the properties we like. But it's not simple, especially not years later. But while we think of these movies as being Lucas movies or Spielberg movies or Scott or Cameron movies, there are multiple names under the Written By credits, and various 'producer' types who may have gotten those credits for a polish or two. All those names on the screen for ten minutes at the end are there for a reason.
Walter Hill and David Giler did a rewrite to punch up the dialogue. You wouldn't even believe me about the stories in Hollywood about writers getting credit and not getting credit. In any event Walter Hill's movie typically have very lean, spartan dialogue. You better believe Eddie Murphy ad libbed most of his stuff in 48 hours.
IB Melchior should have sued and got credit for ALIEN. He wrote Maria Bava's Planet Of the Vampires.
Fantastic documentary.
Just stumbled across this channel, I'm gonna have to watch all the videos
The question:-"that's the question".
Ah Spaceballs. "I knew it I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing assholes" may be the funniest line I've ever heard. It was set up perfectly and it was delivered with such sincerity. Just great stuff.
"...he added a sex scene between Dallas and Parker." Wait, what?!?
I don't know if he mis-spoke, or just poorly informed. It was Lambert and Parker who had a scene where they were 'making out' while Kane's corpse floats past outside.
1:19 - Too bad Scott does not care anymore for such quality
I love your videos man. Of the gratest cinema channels on yt
I had a debate with a housemate once in which she claimed that if I didn't like things to be badly written, then, by definition, I didn't like sci-fi.
Thank you, CinemaTyler.
I rarely watch TV, but flicked around last night to find Alien playing. In standard definition, aspect ratio blown, channel watermark in the corner, pop up ads and of course ad breaks.
So horrific I turned it off immediately.
"the perfect organism. unclouded by delusions of morality."
The cold (albeit modulated) sound of Holm''s delivery in, "I can't lie to you about your chances. You have my deepest sympathies" always put a chill up my spine.
Obannons script is really not that different from the finished film, having read it. Very few of Hill and Gilers big ideas to fix the story ended up in the finished product outside of new dialogue - a lot of them are pretty stock and feel poorly thought out. Punching up the dialogue was really all that it needed.
Yeah but dialogue is pretty significant to the final product, ppl still harp on the amazing characters and realistic dialogue as the one thing that sets this film apart from all others and a measure by which future movies usually fall short. Without these characters being so well-realised there’d be so little punch in the deaths. ‘Just punching up dialogue’ is way more important than u make it out to be, a slashers a slasher, this becomes more than that with actual people rather than meatbags. But then again im not 100% well-versed in O’Bannon’s rendition of the characters, so maybe his dialogue/characters was fine enough
Yeah but dialogue is pretty significant to the final product, ppl still harp on the amazing characters and realistic dialogue as the one thing that sets this film apart from all others and a measure by which future movies usually fall short. Without these characters being so well-realised there’d be so little punch in the deaths. ‘Just punching up dialogue’ is way more important than u make it out to be, a slashers a slasher, this becomes more than that with actual people rather than meatbags. But then again im not 100% well-versed in O’Bannon’s rendition of the characters, so maybe his dialogue/characters was fine enough
Planet of Vampires is where they lifted the story, including the alien surviving at the end. A lot of the visual elements were lifted from the Mario Bava film as well.
_Dark Star_ and "Gremlins" from _Heavy Metal_ presage _Alien_ . O'Bannon's vision, yes, but all praise to the incomparably talented collaborators, crew, and cast for taking what started as a genre film as far as it could possibly go. That's real SF!
Most importantly who put Jones into the script?
There was already a cat in the first O'Bannon's draft (i don't remember if her name was Jones) and the startling scène where it's mistaken for the creature was already there right from the start.
Watch a anime called lily cat
Basically alien the anime
There’s a cat in that too 😂
keep up the good work
10:54 is this from alien too? I don't remember it
(4:33) I love how "person" is crossed off on the sign and replaced with "monsters". 😉
Found you last night! Joined Mubo…. But can I get these great movies to play on the tv?
I believe Giler and Carroll's involvement in Alien 3, Alien: Resurrection, AVP: Alien vs. Predator, and even the belated sequels, tells us everything we need to know about who were the real creative brains behind Alien... and that was Dan O'Bannon and Ron Shusett. As for Walter Hill, Gordon Carroll and David Giler, they were very good script polishers.
I couldn't agree more. It was the idea of O'Bannon to begin with, later having the contribution of his good friend Shusett, that made Alien the story that is was. Any alterations made by anyone after the script was finished might be acknowledged but Hill, Guyler and Caroll always come across as saying that Alien would have been nothing without them. The arrogance of these talentless money-men always get my back up.
@@CMDR_Verm Waler Hill is far from talentless, and has many classic scripts and films go his name. Dude literally invented the modern buddy cop movie.
@@21stcenturyhiphop ...and The Driver has been influencing film makers like JIm Cameron and Nick Refn since its release in the 70s. The Warriors too. Although not a fav of mine, that film still has a huge cult following. He was far from a maker of 'tough guy movies', to quote O'Bannon.
@@davidlean1060 Walter Hill has a sneaky amount of classic films, and had a really unique haiku screenwriting style. A great director and writer.
@@21stcenturyhiphop That's at least 2 movies that turn up on people's fav list. As much as I like O'Bannon, he can only boast one.
Interestingly, it was Ronald Shusett who had the idea of how to get the alien aboard the ship (the monster screws one of the crew and later comes bursting out of him) and Ron Cobb came up with the idea of acid for blood.
Hill and giler did the rewritings to get o'bannon out of the writing credits, with that base i solely believe o'bannon's story, they tried to rip him off and couldn't, he even said that the ash character was their idea if im not mistaken, and i take his word over any producer, also the sex scene was between ripley and dallas not ash, he was the one to get giger, who was introduced to him by Giraud aka Moebius, heck he even wrote The Long Tomorrow witch was the inspiration for blade run (the revolutionary sci-fi movie!) so he wasn't just the writer, he also created the visual themes, he got the alien creature design from giger and the sci-fy elemnts from other people he collaborated with! He said that te final script was more than 80% of to the original, witch if you count the deleated scenes is practically all of the original, dan has been stomped by the industry countless times, he was a great writer, a trully sci-fi geek, a great director and also created the speacial effects that star wars later riped off (or maybe he did them as he is credited as the computer special effects for the movie)
Good you mentioned Giger and Moebius
Always thought the Alien was orginally from the beachball alien in "Dark Star" :)
Weaver had a really strong point about the logical improbability of the sequel. Why would a person, after going through something like this, ever want to go in space again? In the sequel, they said "you can fly again", like that is some super desired job (didnt look like that in the original). Also, in the sequel, Ripley character agreed to go back "to be sure" aliens are dead or to kill them or sth. That weakens her character, turning her from a beliveable person into a more of a comic book character.
Nice job, thanks!
I'm glad you're not doing wall to wall Kubrick videos anymore. Your videos are excellent. But I can only handle so many Kubrick stories. I'm glad you're finally using your talents to tell other stories. ;-)
Dan OBannon is the original writer . The Walter Hill and the other 2 producers tried the rewrite moves to actually take credit away from OBannon from all the rewites .
Ib Melchior wrote Planet of the Vampires...ALIEN lovingly ripped off that story. IB Melchior is the OG writer of ALIEN.
The basic story of Alien is remarkably similar to Queen of Blood(1966)
Also the basic story of Lifeforce (1985) uses "Vampires in Space" themes similar to Queen of Blood :)
the basic story of alien 79 was copied from stoker,s DRACULA the voyage of the demeter
O'Bannon may have been overbearing and hard to work with, but don't forget that the script rewriters tried to claim primary credit on the script and, by their own account, just coldly welcomed O'Bannon to deal with it in arbitration as their only response when he understandably objected. But then that backfired on them when arbitration found in favor of O'Bannon.
I don't think this is true. The shot of the Hill/Giler script in this video only shows the top of the title page which has Alien, screenplay by Hill/Giler (11:38). Later on (15:23), you see the bottom of the page which has "based on screenplay by Dan O'Bannon, etc." They can type whatever they want on their page, but in the end, the WGAw will decide who gets what in arbitration.
@@dsolosan Yes, that is right, my recollection though was taken from another account in which Giler himself references an exchange with O'Bannon on this and his own saying at that point that it would have to go to arbitration. Unfortunately, I can't seem to presently find where that is on the DVD extras etc., but I do recall it. In the Fox Making Of video, as you may recall, O'Bannon cynically claims that Giler and Hill were just making arbitrary changes to attempt to take more credit, while Giler literally claims to have rewritten the whole script from "top to bottom." Meanwhile, Ron Shusett contradicts this, downplaying their script changes. Obviously, both sides have their own point of view and agendas. I imagine that the truth lies somewhere in-between.
I consider O’Bannons ‘Dark Star’ as a prequel to Alien….who can forget that Alien Tomato?🍅 😂
Inspired by Planet of Vampires, at least the creative team avoided making Dark Star 2, turned it into a classic.
Failure is an orphan, success has many parents. IMHO, Alien is thanks mainly to O'Bannon, Shusett, Scott & those other guys
Terry Rawlings,Roger Christian,Gordon Willis,Carlo Rambaldi,Ron Cobb,Jerry Goldsmith,and there are tons more...
Mary Selway-legendary casting agent:)
A lot of the writing was not technically written, it developed from others involved giving their professional and artistic input while in the production and design process. But someone has to be given the credit for the initial concept/idea(s) that started the whole thing off.
I saw a video where this producer said the script was thrown in his window on his desk with no name on it.
12:38 looks like my post was deleted. Regardless, I guess it was the 1977 Walter Hill script that has these story elements (as it was the more staccato Hill and Giler script in 1978 that introduced Ash in place of Mother)... I know Cinefantastique Vol.9 Issue 1 has an excellent set of articles on *Alien,* including excerpts of this early Walter Hill script.
If anyone has a copy or PDF of this script, please let us know.
My hovercraft is full of eels
"Ash and the Robot Subplot." I'm putting that on a T-shirt!
Producers make shit for profit, directors make art for culture.
There were so many Alien movies and series, during the late 60's and 70's it is hard to say but many say it was taken from the move called, The Ore.
There was also a movie, Xenomorph.
Planet of the Vampires
I don't see why people love Aliens more than Alien, two different films but the first is way more thought provoking and got so many things going on for it, while Aliens is an action film with jump scares.
Dan OBannon wrote it > David Giler and Walter Hill made it better > Ridley Scott receives all the credit
All the credit is bullshit, Ridley brought together amazing artists to tweak the look and feel of the film and nailed the execution but he didn’t come up with half of it
Mario Bava's Planet of the Vampires received no credit.
Whoever came up with the face sucker casting Sigourney Weaver and designing the set are all the winners here.
*The android David wrote the script after coming back in time with his space flute and dictating it to O'Bannon who typed it out*
'I'll blow you do the fingering'
To me Basically is Story by O'Bannon and Shusett and final script by O'Bannon, Giler and Hill.
The eternal question
Speaking of cool band names, my brother came up with Scalping Wendy, a Peter Pan reference, that always stuck with me. Your welcome
Dude! That's effed up.
I see what you did there! The word 'lie' in Alien. Clever! Just a point. I like your video's but personally would prefer to listen to your unique voice and what you've got to say, rather than distracting/ irritating background music. That's my pennies worth from over here 🇬🇧 Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, which ever you prefer. LOL
Thanks for the feedback! If you have a few minutes, I'd love it if you could fill out this survey to help me better understand what you like and what could be fixed: bit.ly/3BmNVdW
You forgot to mention that the Alien Story is more or less a copy of the A.E. van Vogt Book The Voyage fo the Space Beagle.
I read O'Bannon's screenplay a few years back. Recall being shocked at how much of the finished film O'Bannon hadn't written. Also remember thinking it was pretty flat and seemed like a shameless rewrite of "It! The Terror From Beyond Space." Hill and Giler performed a miracle and saved the show.
That original script is such a chore to read.
If I remember correctly, the only bit of dialogue which made it through the countless re-writes, is proto-Ripley's attempt to assert authority and stop the facehugger being brought aboard.
Of course other than those few lines, it's really nothing like the final scene, because Ash (who defies her) was a later addition.
I've read so many different Alien scripts. I love that some of it came about in Prometheus. Im enthralled by the idea of androids in conjunction with the alien franchise and bladerunner.
Jesus, my hands were busy, covered in brisket grease and I couldn't skip the ads. I could Texas Chainsaw someone right now. I hate everything now.
Wow you didn't even mention the original "Memory" script
The video you just watched was just on the rewrite by Hill and Giler. This is the video on O'Bannon writing the original script and talks about 'Memory': ua-cam.com/video/X2JT0wqFp44/v-deo.html
Sorry for the confusion.
@@CinemaTyler nice segue
CT are you comparing Dan O'Bannon to his character Pinback in "Dark Star" ? :)
*Thanks* for showing how it takes a team to produce a movie even thro' Dan O'Bannon was the orginal creative force (not that O'Bannon didn't have his influences). Then again a camel is a horse designed by a committee.
The writing and story are important but H.H. Geiger made "Aliens" just as Moebius made "Bladerunner"* visually memorable, both associated with O'Bannon.
Always thought the Alien here was a takeoff of the beachball pet Alien in "Darkstar".
* After reading Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" consider it amazing "Bladerunner" came out as well as it did. Dick's cold story is something a meth head would come up with.
Walter Hill saved this film
You can call me out for being a supporter of the underdog but I think Dan O'Bannon got a raw deal throughout his career. He provided the ideas which other's then tried to steal from him and put him down as a moaner or money-grabber.
Let's be honest, it was because of Dark Star that Alejandro Jodorowsky called O'Bannon in to design aspects of his Dune project - not these Brandywine moneymen or John Carpenter (no disrespect to him). After Dune's failure, O'Bannon went home and picked up a script he'd been working on (Star Beast as Alien was originally entitled) but on which he'd reached an impass. Shusett helped him out with the facehugger concept to move the story along and there you go. To add a bit more detail, it was whilst working on Dune that O'Bannon had been introduced to the work of Giger and he convinced Ridley Scott to use Giger for the alien design etc. The studio fought this as they thought Giger was too extreme but Scott stuck to his guns.
Rather than Hill, Giler and Carroll claim credit, it sounds to me that if it were left to them, Alien would never had existed. Every time I read of their supposed involvement I just get angry. I think their characters were summed up in ''Aliens'' as Carter Burke. Believe it or not, that only just occurred to me.
In the real world, all movie scrips evolve. Everyone involved in the finished film must work as a Team to produce a movie. Movies of the past had very short credits. Today's movies have page after page of credits. This is easy to see with the long list of directors and producers in the movie credits. All writers should be in the credits. If one writer, like O'Bannon, demands top billing, I would modify the credits. I would list all writers alphabetically in the credits under Scrip Writers. To satisfy O'Bannon's ego, he would be last under the word AND.
So this is an ad for your Patreon
UA-cam or moderator settings is blocking/removing comments proving this entire video wrong.
Oh brother. Hill and Giler did NOT write Alien. The WGA made the definitive and correct assessment in regards to writing credits. There is a HUGE difference between writing a story/screenplay (conception, genre/aesthetic, characters, plot, themes, archetypes, villains, heroes, conflicts, structure, crisis, resolution) - and "punching up" dialogue and "making it sexy" (what Hill and Giler specialized in). O'Bannon was thoroughly steeped in the sci-fi genre/aesthetic - Hill specialized in Westerns. The WGA evaluated all screenplays thoroughly and determined it was definitively O'Bannon's creation. Changing characters names, switching which character got infected, switching characters death order - that doesn't get you a writing credit. O'Bannon had no issues at all sharing story credits with Schusett. Director Scott enjoyed having O'Bannon around - it was O'Bannon who convinced Scott to pursue Giger for the Oscar winning Alien design.
In a 2004 interview in Film International #12, Walter Hill described his initial impression of O'Bannon's screenplay: "We believed if you got rid of a lot of the junk - they had pyramids and hieroglyphics on the planetoid, a lot of von Daniken crap, and a lot of bad dialogue - that what you would have left might be a very good, very primal space story." Hill summarizes precisely the scope of his affect on the screenplay: removed a few non-essential elements and "punched up" the dialogue (for what O'Bannon had already, as it turns out, was THE primal space story).
The real crux of the screenplay writing contention is The Corporation/Ash (added by Hill and Giler). The Corporation does NOT warrant a screenplay credit. Kubrik's 2001 Space Odessy came out 11 years before Alien - a subversive/conniving AI killing off a space crew had already been done. I understand why O'Bannon resented the insertion of Ash; imagine you wrote the screenplay for Jaws (1975), and then producers inserted a character who chums the water and pushes crew mates overboard - because he doesn't like the beaches being closed. I truly love the Ash character - primarily because Ian Holmes is PHENOMENAL; hell, the entire cast crushed it. But if you take Ash/The Corporation out of the screenplay, what do you lose? A subplot - you lose The Corporation - that's it. The greedy mayor/town council in Jaws, who certainly frustrate the protagnoist and prolongs the shark's massacre - never upstages the main threat: the shark. Hill and Giler toed-the-line with upstaging O'Bannon's Alien with their own precious creation (The Corporation). Sure, The Corporation made for some tense moments - but I have to stress that The Corporation/Ash could have been left out of this film entirely. The Corporation/Ash is needed about as much as the damn cat; both were devices which kept things moving - but you didn't NEED the cat in the movie. Hill and Giler would like you to imagine they miraculously "polished a turd" - it was more like they smelted O'Bannon's gold ore, and Scott forged a solid gold bar out of it.
Why draw direct comparisons between Jaws and Alien? Because Hill/Giler got the contract by pitching Alien to every studio as "JAWS IN SPACE". This true story resulted in Charles Harris using the pitch phrase as the title to his book on "powerful pitching for film and tv screenwriters". I won't give Hill/Giler credit for themes/subplots they directly lifted from a HUGE blockbuster that happened just 4 years prior to Alien. In Jaws, the movie diverged greatly from Benchley's novel on several large sub-plots (the mafia, Hooper and Brody's wife!), including changes to who d!es and how the shark is ended - and all the changes worked great. And Benchley was one of the screenwriters making these changes to his own story. Toning down and greatly reducing subplots and peripheral conflicts truly kept the monster the main focus. Hill/Giler basically added a "mayor/town council" to O'Bannon's Alien in the form of "Ash/The Coporation"; except in Jaws, you never saw the mayor try to kill Brody (with a dirty mag).
In every discussion about sequels post Alien - Hill and Giler were ALWAYS pushing The Corporation - whereas Scott had always wanted to explore the Aliens origin/nature.
O'Bannon has been fully vindicated - fans are unanimous that the franchise declined sharply immediately after the second film. In the 2nd film (James Cameron, who LOVED Alien), we get plenty of Aliens, and the android theme is limited to a pedantic dichotomy of slimeball Corporate-shill-sub-human Burke & tin-man-with-a-"heart" Bishop - what a a switcheroo, right! As the franchise continued into films 3 and 4 (both fully Hill and Giler's responsibility), the "center did not hold" - there was now an entrenched dissonance; how can you experience deep cosmic space horror about a monster that Hill/Giler's villain (The Corportation) has commodified? Here we are, 4 decades deep into the franchise - with an android STILL stabbing the crew in the back and reporting to Corporate.
Hill's 2004 disdain for the supposed "von Daniken cr@p" he thought existed in O'Bannon's screenplay is pure irony: where has the entire franchise ended up? Fully submerged in (per Hill's criteria) "van Daniken cr@p". Prometheus is full-bore "Chariots of the Gods" (cave paintings, star-maps, Engineers mad about Jesus...). Both of the AvP movies (Hill and Giler produced): full-bore "van Daniken" (Predators taught humans to build pyramids, tribes worship Predators as gods and provide human sacrifices to them).
I love Dark Star
Long story short, Ridley Scott came and got all the merit
One of the worst and most unfair "arbitrations" in WGA history. Without Hill's and Giler's contributions, Alien would not be Alien. Giler wrote Ash's great monologue one morning en route to the studio. They came up with the "truckers in space" concept, changing 2 characters to women including Ripley, killing off Dallas early (a la Psycho), and the dialogue. I've read O'Bannon's script and it's truly terrible.
Seems like some cinematic treasure comes about due to almost chaotic/accidental confluence of good inputs.
Blade Runner is the same. The original source material is cringe but somehow, gold came from Scott's creative process.
It's a pity Scott lost that magic touch.
I wish you had spent more time on the influence of Giger on the look of the alien and other aspects of its homeworld and how much it was carried through to the following films.
The addition of the whole twist with Ash being an android and the company knowing about the derelict all along creates 2 problems that I've never really heard anyone acknowledge.
1. Ash doesn't go on the mission to explore the alien ship. The only scientist (and apparently the only medic) on this crew of space-truckers doesn't go with them to respond to a signal that _could_ be an S.O.S. and _could_ be extra-terrestrial, as far as the rest of the crew is concerned. Either way, you figure this would be his time to shine. And Dallas should be figuring that too. Instead, he brings Lambert... because somebody needs to be there to complain, I guess. Meanwhile Ash, whose mission is "Bring back lifeform, priority 1. All other priorities are rescinded," takes it on blind faith that one, and _only_ one, of the away party is gonna get a face-hugger... and everything goes exactly according to plan. If all 3 of them got face-hugger-ed, there would be no one to drag anybody back to the ship. If Dallas took one look at the Space-Jockey and said "This thing is fossilized. There's no one and nothing here that needs saving. And even if they were still alive, I doubt they would look at us as peers or allies. Let's go back to the ship now that we've fulfilled our contractual obligations," then Ash's mission fails. And why doesn't he go, according to the script? Well, because somebody needed to push the button to let the team back in. A surface-level issue that is introduced and put to bed in the very same scene. It feels like a band-aid, but at least they went to the trouble to put a band-aid on that issue, unlike the other one.
2. Ash doesn't even try to freeze Kane. Instead of trying to "bring back lifeform" in a nice convenient package, he opts to let it go ahead and be birthed even though he's absolutely certain it's going to kill everyone and has no reason to believe it's going to spare him. So, what does he think is gonna happen when all the crew is dead? Who's gonna stop the ship when it gets near Earth in 10 months? Remote control? Because that's never mentioned. If they can control their ships remotely then what the hell do they even need (to pay) a crew for? And who's gonna go on board and try and wrangle the thing? Ash's devious plan has no "plan" in it. It feels very much like this is a symptom of this twist being an 11th hour addition.
See, they needed/wanted the chest-burster to come out at dinner, not while Kane is unconscious and being put into cryogenic sleep. That scene was the centerpiece of the whole script, and they weren't about to throw it out so that the newly added twist would make more sense. They could've covered this glaring issue with another band-aid. They could've given Ash a line while the remaining 3 crew members questioned him. Parker could ask (for the 3rd time) "Why didn't you just freeze Kane?" And he could've responded "It seems my orders are conflicting with my core programming, and I'm afraid it's led to some poor decisions on my part." But they didn't. We're left to assume that this clusterfuck of a plan (which results in total failure _and_ the loss of the ship and payload) is his plan A ... and there never was a plan B.
“No mention of Ripley being a woman”.
It says on page 1, the characters are interchangeable for male
Or female lol
Epic franchise
There were many rewrites so David Giler could try to get rid of OBannon .
Watching the behind the scenes interviews and seeing Bannon talk always fascinated me. Just seeing his lack of self awareness, bitterness towards script changes. He was unable to accept that what he wrote was b-movie schlock. Alien is the example I always mention when talking about how scripts are really just a blueprint, without the casting, design & direction, Alien would have been forgotten IMO. Which some memorable lines as "we'll blow that fucker into space." The script itself is still the weakest part of the whole. Love your work Tyler!
It's not a blueprint. It's a heart beat. The other stuff you mentioned is organs. Producers see a script and decide to make it alive. The blueprint is the financing
Dam dude I had no idea that having a female
Lead was such a major movie . I grew up with alien being a major staple so leanings all of this and seeing clips of the interviews it makes me
Wonder if society was on the right path and then people
Started bitching about nonsense and now
We are back sliding
Hill and Giler definitely made the script the huge success it became but it was Ridley's direction that made it a classic sci-fi-horror movie that launched a huge franchise.
Read the book in the 70s i think by alan dean foster also C.T. watch the 50s b film "it the thing from beyond space" you'll see where the idea came from.
Dude, the novel was commissioned after the movie. Dean Forster's novel is basically merch in support of the film.
@@davidlean1060: The novel was commissioned and written while the project was still filming. All novelizations are merch support for the movie, and hopefully profit for the book publishers.