WOW!!! THE IDEA THAT THE FULL SENSOR IS BEING USED AT BOTH 8K AND 4K WHILE MAINTAINING RAW IS INCREDIBLE!!!! Until now, I figured they were downsampling their image, I didn't understand the "magic" behind that until now. Very awesome!
To be clear, it is not RAW. It has RAW like features. But, because you can’t use any formula to take the 4K BRAW output pixel and determine exactly what each photo site’s value was, it is not true RAW. This is why RAW cameras crop. It isn’t possible to sum 4 photo sites into a single value and then extract that number back from the single value to what each of the 4 was. That doesn’t mean its not awesome. It just means its not true RAW.
@@ScottBalkum Heya Scott! Love your work with Kessler by the way. Thanks for watching our video. Yes, that's a valid point about the 4k mode not being 'true raw'. 'Raw' is such a tricky topic anyway, because not even Red cameras can be considered as 'truly raw' as lossy compression is being applied to signal regardless of compression ratio or resolution. In the case of Blackmagic Raw, there is a partial de-mosaic happening before the image is recorded. Would you say that it's more valid to call the 8k mode 'raw' as in theory it is working with the image directly off the sensor? The pixel pairing is happening at a sensor level, it's not post-processed.
@@team2films You are correct on RED as well, although there is a level of compression with RED that can accurately calculate each photo site’s value. But absolutely, if you start using higher compressions (and most of us do), we are stepping out of the “true RAW” area. And thank you on the Kesller stuff! As for what they call it? Eh, Marketing is Marketing. They want to focus on resolution and to me, resolution is great, but the picture is really what I care about most and I’d rather it be called a 6K camera with an image like no other, because at 6K, it would have an image like no other (compared to bayered). The only way to call something RAW is to be able to calculate from the recorded file, each and every photo site’s value from the sensor. With the 4K or even 8K RAW modes, there is no way to do so. If it is de-mosaicing before being recorded, that information is lost forever. It is a fun topic to discuss because we’re at a level of output that is so good, we’re complaining about the Country of origin and species of wood for hand carved tooth picks. ;) We’re all outputting at 4K and rarely 8K and in that case, this camera will absolutely put on an impressive show, sometimes besting ARRI, RED and SONY and sometimes not. That’s the position BM has put themselves in, and, its exactly the position you want to be in. You are creating imagery that competes with the best. That is why BM has impressed me so much lately. The next gen of this sensor is going to be incredible.
Once again just WOW, the amount of research and production value, as well as the technical explanation of the Sensor Technology is by far the BEST I´ve seen on UA-cam. Thanks Leon and Natalie, you once again outdone yourself! 🙌
Thanks for including an interview, with a small and upcoming colorist, who did color grading on a few smaller indie films, like 'Le Mans 66', 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens', 'Guardians of the Galaxy', 'Avatar: The Way of the Water', 'Thor: The Dark World', 'Gravity', 'Iron Man 3' and more. I'm sure he will be successful in the future ☺️ 🤪 😂
Btw., it's refreshing to actually get an opinion from someone, who knows what he's talking about. So many have criticized this camera, just because of the RGBW sensor and the camera being from BMD. Without ever touching the camera.
Hahahah, yeah, he has a bright future. Let's watch to see where he goes. He's such a nice guy. Very knowledgable, dedicated to his craft and happy to share. There's a lot of brand bias in the industry. The Cine 12k might not be the greatest camera, but it is EASILY good enough, and at $15,000 it's hard to ignore. Thanks for watching and commenting. It's great to have you here.
@@team2films I think that these people are just people who don't have the skills to get a good picture out of most cameras. I saw a review from a British UA-camr. You probably know him. I don't recall his name, but he's probably in the 40s or 50s. He has a large handlebar moustache. In his review of the Pyxis, he said that if you can't get a great video out of any camera released within the last ten years, it's probably not the fault of the camera. I think that was a great response to the haters of BMD cameras.
@@akyhne Yeah, we'd agree with that. It's the camera operator that makes the image, not the camera. There's still room for the camera to have an impact, but the camera is rarely the critical point of failure.
I don’t believe BMD has haters. The cost of content in industry class they are aiming to play in - can easily cost $15K per second. Let’s not get sidetracked by gear enthusiasm and forget that these tools have real-world implications for investments and career expectations. The reason DPs invest $200K in glass and cameras isn’t that they can’t shoot the same subject matter on an iPhone-it’s because these tools have been tried and tested, providing fidelity and assurance in the quality of their work. BMD has finally delivered a camera that these DPs can genuinely get behind and use professionally. Beyond image quality and camera class, this camera introduces an advanced level of modern film technology that no other camera on the market can currently provide or match. BMD has all the supporting capabilities as a company built around this camera. They simply need to refine, test, and showcase a workflow that integrates seamlessly into existing production models-while proving it to be faster than the Arri/Sony/Avid proxy-to-online workflows. BMD undoubtedly has the capability; they just fall short in demonstrating it effectively.
That is quite a compliment. We love the work Nikolaus does over at Media Division. It's an honour to be compared. Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment. It's appreciated.
You've done it again, Leon and Natalie! Another incredible video packed with valuable insights. Thanks for sharing all of this, I always appreciate your content!
one thing I've also noticed with the RGBW sensors is that the noise pattern is very pleasing, because it has more luma noise than chroma noise, which looks more like film than digital (in my opinion at least)
Excellent video, thank you so much! You obviously invested a LOT of time in researching and creating this deep dive. I do think that you missed a VERY important comparison that would have added to the 12k resolution debate. That of downsampling in post. You did mention it but I have heard several times online about the benefits of shooting in 12k and then downsizing to 4k. It would be so informative if you could use the footage already used in this video to create some comparisons between native 4k to downsized/sampled in post 12k footage to see if there is any noticeable difference in quality in a 4k deliverable/output. I truly believe this camera is revolutionary and will shake up the industry completely. Greig Frazer is already using the 17k Cine and is posting on X.
That's a good point about comparing post down-sampling. I can almost guarantee it will be better than the camera's internal 4k. Essentially that's what we did when producing this video, we shot everything at 12k for a 4k release. We'll see if we can work that comparison you suggested into a future video. Thanks so much Barry for watching and taking the time to engage in the comments.
The rolling shutter being under 7ms in 8k is huge. Even 12k at 12ms is nothing to frown at. There's nothing more disappointing to me than very high resolution footage that looks like jello.
Yeah, it's wild. Remember that the readout times we've shared are open gate. So when shooting at 16:9 the readout is even quicker. It's pretty amazing how good it is. It's basically a non-issue.
One thing that also helps a lot is that with braw you can (mostly) fix rolling shutter by stabilizing from gyro data. Of course there is a limitation that you need resolve to do that (I could be wrong though) There's a lot of videos regarding that topic if you're interested.
Holy sh*t. HOLY SH*T! The image quality from this is absolutely incredible. So many technological breakthroughs in one camera! And that price, compared to other flagship cine cameras, is extremely reasonable. I need this camera, and a 12k TV!
Hahah, it is amazing! But remember, this camera isn't about 12k deliverables. It's about making better quality 8 or 4k deliverables! Be happy with your 4k TV :)
@@team2films i was just about to say it, no reason for 12k tv, not even an 8k tv. For an 8k tv to make any sense it has to be over 85 inches for the standard viewing distance of 2-3meters. So 4k is more than enough unless u live in a mention with separate building for a movie theater and even than with 12k footage u'll be in one class with IMAX dual 4k laser projectors technology witch they claim sum up to 12k, which is ridiculous, normal cinema is up to 4k lol P.S. Most of the things nowadays are played on an iphone screen🤣🤣
@@team2films One of the things I've noticed (and something I haven't seen anyone comment on) is the relatively loud fan noise. I'm curious if this is just me. I don't think it would be a problem outdoors, but if you require a quiet set, that could be problematic. I doubt it would have influenced my decision, but something that's very noticeable (on my unit anyway). I understand WHY it could be necessary as it produces a TON of heat, but I can't find a way to adjust it even for short periods of time..
This video was fantastic. Incredible information. As a PYXIS, 6K Pro (converted to PL) and 4K owner I'm now super interested in this seeing as the price has just dropped to $7000 USD! For me it's the minuscule Rolling Shutter values, internal NDs, Illuminated, buttons, OLPF, onboard monitor and ability to shoot without sensor cropping at 8k or 4K that's brilliant. I would have to test if I could make it fit on an RS4 Pro myself as obviously I design hardware, I may be able to design a solution. Thanks for this video.
Great job. I’ve shot with the new cine 12k and own the OG version. They are an amazing camera. Thanks for your in-depth and insightful well produced video about it. Hopefully people wake up and buy these things because if they sell, we should see more similar products in the future from BMD.
Curiously the internal downsampling (I assume, see addendum below) of the camera produces halos around sharp image detail. This is visible in the green light under the shepards brewery in the cityscape scene at 13m03s. If you have contacts at BMD, it would be nice to point this out. Not sure if this is an easy software fix or not, but it's a bit odd to see this. It would be nice to not have those over-undershoots around fine detail when downsampling from 12k to 4k. And yes, I am well aware that this is the definition of pixelpeeping. However, I think its fair to point out that whatever resizing filter they are using, a slightly less artefacty one would be nice and probably is not rocket science (bilinear vs. bicubic). Addendum to the above: this could be down to resolve default resizing algorithms and not inherent to the camera, that I don't know. Would be cool if you could check where that might come from. Love the Video. Excellent test shoot, colorist interview and overall presentation. Cheers from Germany.
I went back and checked, I think it is somewhat present in the source image. Changing resize filter can minimise the artefacts but cannot completely remove them. That's valid feedback to provide. The best place for you to post that would most likely be on the Blackmagic forum. Feel free to post screenshots if that helps. So yes, it appears there is something in the filter kernel used in the 4k mode that's adding artefacts on those high contrast objects. I am impressed though with how closely the 8 and 4k match. It's an outstandingly versatile camera. Thanks so much for watching the video, and thanks for your kind comments too. We're glad the video is coming across as intended!
@@team2films Thank you for checking! I agree that 8K and 4K mode are very close. I'll see how I can report that (not a BMD customer yet, just a resolve user). Those deep dives are valuable and you make them worthwhile to watch. Cheers
In the field of CMOS Image Sensor design, this CFA pattern has a preferred name of RGB3W over RGBW. RGBW means that the color filter array (CFA) is primarily Bayer (a group of 2x2, 4 pixels, RGGB), then replacing one of the G filter with W filter. RGB3W has a CFA group of 6x6, 36 pixels, then each row, or column will have a R pixel, a G pixel, a B pixel, and 3W pixels accordingly.
Really nice video. You put a ton of work into this and it shows. It should be noted that the white or clear photo sites do not contribute to resolution, only light levels/DR. So, although there are 12K of photosites, There are only 6K of resolution that is actually captured.
Now that 6K still creates an incredible 4K image and will even generate an 8K image that has more detail than 4K, but at 12K, you aren’t actually getting 12K of resolution. Some will claim I am just hating on BM and its far from it. BM has seriously impressed me over the last few years. What I don’t like, is the marketing team marketing this cam as a 12K when its not. Just market it as a 6K plus. Its incredible and produces an incredible image. But, not 12K.
It's great to have you here Scott! Thanks so much for your kind compliment. I'm curious about your source regarding the claim that the wideband photo sites do not contribute towards resolution? It would seem to us that both the narrow and wide band photo sites contribute towards the images resolution. Whether or not it's capable of full 12k fidelity is one thing... but I doubt it's as simple as saying it's effective resolution is only half. Additionally, Bayer cameras also suffer from the same issues of effective resolution vs claimed resolution. So in order to compare cameras we'd need to downgrade every camera we consider? With that in mind, does it not become a moot matter to some degree? We agree with you about the camera's marketing. Labelling the camera with '12k' doesn't highlight the camera's relevance for creative productions. You don't come across at all as hating. We appreciate you contributing to the conversation. Like we always say, there are many great cameras out there, and this is one of them. Sony, Arri, Red, and Canon all make amazing cameras. We're glad people have the choice.
You did a wonderful job of explaining the technology. Now, I have to remove this video from my watch history, or UA-cam will think I am in the market for a $15k camera. Heck, they are already trying to sell me a private jet.
Hahahahah. That's too funny :) Thanks so much for watching. Glad you enjoyed the explanation even if you are not in the market for a new camera..... yet! 🤣
Nice, but I don't really like where this video is going. I for one purchased the BMPCC 6k Pro after spending hours watching youtube content about it. What 'UA-cam experts' didn't say is the camera is flawed with frame drops (I thought this was because I used USB drive, purchased a 1 To Angel bird, the issue persist). This in fact came with filming with 6k in Constant bitrate 8 (or even 12), because it never happens in the camera 4k mode. This is the experience purchasing a 6k Pro and filming in 6 k : (1)framedrops (2) I can't use properly 4k mode, as using 24mm lens make you film in 50mm in 4k, 50mm looks 85mm, etc.. because the sensor used is smaller so hard to get wide shots (3)very long exports for 6k footages, even longer if I film in high quality, even with a good PC/Mac. (4)No one f***ing watch videos in 6k lol. People working in the cinema industry use cameras on film sets, they don't need to buy one, and all of us independant filmmakers purchase gear according to our own needs. And this 8k / 12k "thing sounds a bit ridiculous. Maybe my understanding is limited, I just wanted to share it because I feel the high resolution feature is a bit of a luring approach in many videos we find on UA-cam.
Sorry you are having problems with your 6K. We've shot with several 6K Pro's and have never experienced that issue. Perhaps you should contact customer support? Don't forget... no one is suggesting that we should make 12k deliverables. The camera can produce 12k when needed, but is equally as capable when filming in its 4k mode. Many filmmakers will choose to capture 12 or 8k to help them produce better quality 4k deliverables. Hope that helps! Thanks so much for watching and commenting.
Please do share some of the raw footage for us to practice, and if you have the later Ursa Mini Pro 12K OLPF (RGBW Sensor one) please do compare the dynamic range and image quality. My budget is a bit limited, just wanted to know if UMP12K will get my expectations ok😊
We'll see what we can do to share footage. It's quite large naturally and there's some expense involved with hosting. Have you seen the newly announced price for the base model of the Cine 12k LF?
Excellent video! It’s an exciting time for cameras, lots of great options at increasingly competitive price points. Interested to see how this is adopted into the market
Yeah, we're interested to see too. There's so much brand bias out there that can get in the way of objective choices. As we like to say, 'there are many great cameras, and this is one of them' :) Thanks for watching. Great to have you here.
The sensor in the URSA is similar to the X-Trans sensors in FujiFilm camera. It doesn’t use a normal Bayer pattern and because of this, their sensors punch above their range in light sensitivity, sharpness, and noise performance vs other APS-C sensors.
Thanks so much for watching, it's great to have you here. Yes, in regard to their low light sensitivity they are similar to an x trans. Although from what we understand the x Trans is more similar to bayer than it is to the RGBW employed in the Cine 12k.
Heya! Thanks so much for watching. Tips are always welcome, don’t want it to have an ad feel, because it is just genuine praise for a cool product with an accessible price. Great to have you here.
Another great video! I really appreciated the discussion with the colorist, your spec shoot was great, and I love the animations. I hope you do some tutorials on how to do those intros.
Thanks Max. Always appreciated. Yes, we'll hang onto the files and hopefully make time to do a tutorial at some point! You can see how bad our green screen was lit. 🤣
Amazing video once again. I REALLY appreciate the sensor explanation (diagonal receptors). A) I have the original 12K, I know they made changes other than sensor size, but did you learn what those differences are? B) I don't think you mentioned the 9K mode at all. What's different about it? C) As I understand, BM can get such amazing performance out of B-Raw because the camera does 'half of the debayering' in the hardware, while preserving the rest for DaVinci. I don't have a strong understanding of this, but also How this compares with the Other Manufacturers process. D) As with everything Blackmagic, it's the entire pipeline / workflow approach, efficiency, cost that make it difficult to justify anything else. Blackmagic Camera -> Blackmagic Raw Codec -> now Blackmagic Media -> Blackmagic Davinci Resolve E) The hardest to express to others isn't just how much Money you save without losing quality, but how much Time you save, and how many failure points have been removed from the entire process.
A From what I understand the concept of the sensor is not significantly different, but I'm sure the newer sensor is much refined and has larger photo sites. B 9k mode is a simple crop. C I guess, it's not about where the de-moasic happens, but more to do with the quality of the de-mosaic. D and E Yes, it's an incredible value prop. It might not be as good as a Venice or Alexa... but 90% of the quality for 15% of the price? That's a good deal. Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to leave a comment.
what I hates when reviews say that "the readout speed of the sensor improves when you crop in" which just simply isn't true. because they change the area of the sensor that is being read out, meaning that the skew of the image, the rolling shutter artefacts, will actually be the same. Not with blackmagics 12k and 17k sensors, they still read out the full area of the sensor, and it actually does indeed improve the rolling shutter performance
Cool review and nice explanation of sensor technology! Thank you! Fun fact: in terms of bmd sony’s fx6 sensor IMX510AQL should be advertised as 8k, because it is quad bayer sensor with 48M photosites, in 2x2 groups of the same band sensitivity, it has two stage diagonal binning, first stage in analog on readout, second stage in digital after adc, so only 12M photosite values going out of the sensor, that is why in specs it is 12Mp. This design is helpful for dynamic range and better snr, while has relatively fast readout speed.
You explained pretty good but everything comes in budget and hardware. Blackmagic URSA Cine have good BRAW codec, but not like ProRes raw. 12K sensor technology camera do matters but higher quality, compressed and good codec like ProRes raw codec not available in this camera. That’s why most of the hollywood film use ProRes Raw codec. And also not everybody can afford to buy more then 10K Mac or windows hardware to run it BRAW. On the market, there is others color grading software available which work better then DaVinci Resolve and also compatible with ProRes codec. I think that’s why bigger production company ignoring the Blackmagic URSA cine. I felt like Blackmagic Design products are bias and people like me can’t waste the money on bias products.
Hello. Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to leave a comment. ProRes Raw is a good codec however here are two things to consider. Number one, I can almost guarantee that no one is using prores raw in ‘Hollywood’x The codec has very poor support and there are not any high end cameras capable of recording it internally. Number two there are no discernible differences in quality prores raw is capable of delivering and what Blackmagic raw is capable of delivering. I hope that information is helpful. It’s great to have you here.
Does this camera has "pre-recording" (cache recording as Sony calls it) ... That understated feature is soooo useful for wildlife, but also for ANY documentary work.
I’m always confused about the 12k OLPF, since I can’t really find any information on it’s sensor. But some say it’s an in-house sensor as well. So does it have the same pattern and scaling technology as the 12k cine?
Yes, it's the same technology as the new Cine 12k LF. Obviously it's an older version. The new sensor in the LF will be more refined, and it has larger photosites as it's LF rather than s35.
The best part? Blackmagic have said they're working on autofocus for future cameras. Which is the one thing they've been lacking along with tighter industrial design.. but you can't complain at all for the price! I think the industry needs to differentiate between image size and image resolution when describing sensors. Often what we're talking about is the size of the digital image's pixel count rather than the count of photosites for a given sensor size. What's important is the minimum possible change in /optical/ information for a given space on a sensor- case in point with the 12k vs 8k vs 4k footage example. The /optical/ resolution of a typical 4k (in dimension) digital image is evidently capable of containing the spatial/optical information measured from a 12k photosite sensor. So there's something not quite right with how we designate 'resolution' to cameras. Perhaps if we're using bayer (rggb) or RGBW (rwrwgwgwbwbw), we should be considering the true spatial/optical resolution of a camera as a factor of the mosaic architecture: So for bayer (rggb), having 4 photosites per digital pixel, would require a sensor photosite count of a /minimum/ of 33.2million to get a true 1:1 readout to a UHD image size. Nevermind downsampling. But this makes me wonder, for BMD'S RGBW (rwrwgwgwbwbw), having a massive 12 photosites per digital pixel.. does that then mean for a UHD image output you need 8.3mp x 12= 99.5million? At '12k' the s35 Ursa 12k has 79.6million so if the theory/my math is right, there's still some headroom to fill.
A Burano VS URSA Cine is the test I wanna see ! Those low light shots were gorgeous. Curious how much denoise you went into ? Only saw the 12K at a couple of shows (no rental here in Paris), Noise floor seemed to be busier than what I’ve seen in your video !
There's definitely 3200 shots in the video without any denoise, so if you've not seen any issues, that's a good thing. We've worked with the Burano, and we enjoyed it. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd go with the URSA. That's an easy decision. The Burano undelivered considering its price. The URSA over delivers. It's awesome, as long as you can mange a full-size camera!
@@Horizons_Roses Gotcha. Those 290's last over three hours, but they might be more difficulty for your to fly with. SWIT has some flight legal capacities. Check out their BIVO line. Can't praise USB C charging on those batteries enough. Makes them so much more convenient to travel with.
@@team2films Thanks for the info. This cam will shine on brand and commercial content. For the higher end doc... I'll keep on waiting on whats will comes out of Sony or let's hope Nikon/Red !
As an AC imo this camera is hindered by workflow. Arri has its eco system with hi5 and cine rt and more. The mini LF and 35 are compact and can be fitted in gimbals like the trinity cyclo and ronin 2, the cage offers loads of mounting space. The 12k has an awesome sensor, but that’s not enough. It needs lemo connections to hook stuff up, fiz, Teradek, cine rt etc. maybe even integrated fiz to become a real global player. Until then you won’t see it used on set!
Yeah, that's true. It does lack the extended ecosystem that cameras like the Alexa offer. Hopefully that's an area where we will see the camera improve. It should be noted though that... There is lemo for serial run/stop/start. Focus and Zoom can also be controlled via USB C. I know that some won't consider that a professional port, but I suspect we will see perceptions change on that. And there definitely is pro FIZ that will work well with the Cine 12k. I think size is the biggest challenge that you've mentioned. I think once its tech trickles down into bodies like the PYXIS that won't be an issue anymore though as you'll be able to run an A and B setup. What I'd say is... don't write the camera off without using it. There's so much brand bias in the industry... "to do that, you NEED this", "This is the only choice if you want to do that". Give it a try and see what you think. And of course provide feedback on what's missing too. An Alexa or Venice is around 5 or 6 times the cost. Is it 5 times better?
@@team2films I see your point and if a project comes along I wouldn’t say no, but usb-c can’t ever be a “professional” port. It’s flimsy and doesn’t have the locking function of lemo. If you want proof that Lemo is superior to all, watch Ahsoka episode 2 (~minute 9:30). Lemo is so superior, it’ll be used in the far future when light sabers will be a thing. :)
@@LightW 😂🤣 If it's lightsaber ready then I am in! Blackmagic have introduced locking USB - C to their cameras. It should also be noted that red uses usb c for their monitors too. I have broken plenty of lemo cables. I have also broken plenty of sdi cables too. No cable is immune to damage. To be professional, it just needs to be used by professionals. I'm not saying that it's better than lemo, but good enough is a different thing. Just saying. A lot of people have said 'that's not for professionals' before.
Blackmagic really do consistently kick out new and interesting tech for very reasonable prices. There are certain features that are still going to count them out of the high end - the dual native ISO of the Venice or 'extended sensitivity' of the Arri cameras for example. When shooting TV/Film dynamic range matters more than ever, and DoPs I work with consistently praise the highlight retention of the new Arri cameras. BM don't really have any respect among DPs in the TV/Film world, I would love to see one of these in the test room though and get a DP who has spent their life looking at images to see what they think.
Thanks so much for watching. Yeah, blackmagic make some incredible tech. We think brand bias is a bigger obstacle for the Cine 12k than dynamic range. While the Alexa and Venice have better dynamic range, it's not leaps and bounds better. A stop or so makes very little difference practically. I hope that an innovative DP somewhere adopts the camera and shows how capable it is for high end production. The Cine17k might be adopted quicker. Its success could pave the wave for wider 12k adoption.
@@team2films Brand bias plays a big part for sure. It's not unwarranted... Arri and more recently Sony have delivered solid camera systems that rarely go wrong. The same cannot be said for Blackmagic and Red, who have both delivered cameras which are cumbersome and slow and use prosumer class media that can and does cause issues. Only last week I had a Raptor out and we had recording issues with three Red branded mags (could have been a body issue, but seemed like media). We had to re-shoot stuff and wasted hours. That DoP (and me for that matter) quickly fell back to out Red biases and blamed the brand... (I do know another DIT using 2 raptors on a very high end film, so it's not like they are all terrible) Red and Sony have had some problems in the past but over the past 5 years I have barely seen another camera on set and they are pretty rock solid. I was just looking and I can't even find a 'normal' way to offload the media in this camera... that reader you show in the clip is way too cumbersome and is it only ethernet for offloading? Perhaps BM are trying to drive people to their cloud or something, but none of that will fly on a set where we have to reload and backup regularly. It doesn't really seem like BM are even trying to aim for the TV/Film shooters here to be honest, and fair enough - at that price I expect it's aimed more at the burgeoning creator space.
@@dylanevans5644 I work on television in movies in NYC and you do have a point about the media. It's very tricky when a company decides to force people in a new direction and then doesn't provide a very easy way to walk in that new direction. i think those 8k mags and their current options to offload them are probematic as it relates to blackmagic cameras being used in very fast paced environments. Especially the camera department, those folks, especially the loader have to move very quickly when called upon to make any kind of change. I own a ton of Blackmagic stuff and would buy this camera if I could. But my one gripe would be how they approach media offload on this camera.
As with previous Blackmagic products, it's a great value proposition and an amazing performer. But in the past, the cost has been with reliability. And this is coming from a longtime BM user. I own 5 BM cameras; of these, only two I'd say are still fully functional. Two of the three URSA series cameras I have developed serious issues out of warranty. There's a huge gamut of weak points on BMD cameras, some of them catastrophic, combined with terrible warranty/service. On a cheap pocket camera, the risk is acceptable. But at over 10k price, that's much harder to swallow. Hopefully they've made serious improvements on this generation of products.
Yes, that's true, RGBW sensors have been out for a while, but they didn't offer much advantage over Bayer. Although Blackmagic's sensor is also called RGBW, it is VERY different from RGBW CFA's that have come prior. It's a completely different thing. The previous Blackmagic 12k camera featured one, so this is the second camera to feature this kind of sensor (but beyond that, it's basically completely new).
@@team2films the benefit of rrggbbww is not good for stills. For video due to the existence of temporal denoise it's easy to regain the lost 50% color info. But on stills it's a pure loss
Nice review! But one point I think is weird. You are comparing the cost of each media for data space at the end of your review. But isn't each codec different in space requirements. So I would argue it is better comparable to take the biggest possible codec on each camera and see how much does it cost to shoot an hour of footage on each camera. That I think would be more appropriate.
Thanks so much! Appreciate you watching and taking the time to engage in the comments. Yes, we see where you are coming from. It might get a bit complex comparing runtimes between cameras though as there are so many different iterations of codec and resolution. The space comparison might be more fair than you think though. For example, remember that an Alexa shoots a 4k(ish) image, as can the Cine12k. That means they are both broadly capable of getting the same runtime from the same amount of storage. Either way, it's a broad indication of value and not meant to be the final metric when choosing a camera.
@@team2films I hear you, but I also agree with the OP. Maybe build a runtime chart and pin it to the top of the comments. Baseline: 8tb = X-Minutes at 12 / 8 / 4K How much for comparable runtime on each of the 3 others, in each of thier best modes.
@@G_handle but thr 12k doesn't force you to shoot at max resolution... I don't see how it would be relevant. Even more, i think the 12k will be used in its max res only like 1% of the time Btw blackmagic has a calculator of runtime on its website, where you can chose codec resolution and frame rate if you are interested
@lucasvivante8988 Correct. I own the OG 12K and I mostly consider it an 8K camera that I occasionally pop into 12K mode. (Though it depends on the project what percentage. Some zero, some 100%. On average, I'd say more like 10-15% ish.) If you don't see, part of the point here is Comparing apples to apples, when it's more like, oranges, pears, and bananas. The most relevant thing is dollars for given runtime at given resolution and codec. How much is a true hour of footage on each given system? I own Blackmagic, but often rent the others. Producers are often Shocked at how much More it costs to work on Arri, Red, Sony from a bottom line budget perspective. The question is: What does that money Buy you in terms of esthetics and production value? Is that money better spent on Lenses and Lighting?
@G_handle as i experienced working with a c70, it's often less time and money spent on the camera. The 4k is superb and it can record (subpar)raw in sd cards. It fills 95% of my and my clients needs
What about colors, dynamic range, tonality? We’ve seen a lot of new ideas in sensor design (X-trans, RYYB, CYYM, RGBW, Foveon) and for some reason none became widely used (well, except of X-trans, but even it wasn’t used for GFX).
There have been lot's of sensor designs that offer subtle variations on the bayer sensor (like X-Trans). Blackmagic's RGBW stands out because it's not just a variation, but it offers distinct advantages over Bayer. Looking forward to seeing how it's adopted. The color, dynamic range and tonality of the camera was excellent. If there were issues they would have been flagged in the analysis. Granted, some more specific objective testing would help make that point better though.
Imagine if Sony instead of making a QuadBayer pattern did something similar to this on the FX3... also this opens up the possibility for true black and white shooting, or if BM gets access to sony's latest silicon node
are those O'Connor tripod legs? they look like my O'Connor but it has red on it. Also for the handhelds where you are walking back and the model is walking towards the camera was that handheld or assisted?
I bought the camera when it first released - I was surprised at how noisy the image was in specific situations and also I was shocked at how quickly the colour became super noisy whenever I pushed the grade. Especially adding depth to the colour without grain. Any thoughts on this?
Hmmm, sorry you are having problems with noise. It's hard to diagnose without more information. Perhaps you are underexposing the image? When I first picked up the camera, I found that the on camera screen encouraged me to underexpose.
I hope they bring back the fairlight sensor/ bmpcc OG. that thing was pure magic. This is great and all but way too perfect and missing that old film look magic the OG had. Blackmagic can do both, lets go
There's lots of affordable lenses that are sharp enough when stopped down to say t4.0. In this video we used the Tokina Vista Primes. Wide open their sharpness is unbelievable. They are a great pairing for this camera and are relatively affordable at about $6000 a lens. Really cool lenses.
you said you were gonna explain the technology behind rgbw. sure the 12k sensor uses a funky cfa pattern for sophisticated readout modes. but the image is demosiaced while recording? why? does that mean that the raw recording is not white balance invariant? and is highlight reconstruction possible?
Highlight reconstruction is definitely possible. And white balance can be adjusted in the raw decode settings. It's good to note though that white balance can be accurately and easily adjusted even on non-raw recordings. That's not something that is exclusive to raw codecs. Does that help? Please let us know if you have any more questions.
@team2films i see. i have yet to see a convenient way of correcting white balance on demosiaced images. it might be manageable for slight errors but needs to be adjusted on scene basis to avoid color shifts. also i have seen videos where white balance corrections on braw footage in resolve lead to similar loss in color because of partial debayer or something. white balance invariance is the main selling point of recording raw instead of some log.
@@leonard_roy There are several tools for correcting white balance. The primaries wheels have a control. The HDR white balance control is better as it behaves photometrically. The Chromatic Adaptation effect offers a very scientific way of adjusting white balance. The better your codec, the better your adjustments will be. I.e. a 10-bit codec is going to be a minimum, but a 12-bit codec would be better. Also, the CRI of the lights in the scene will have a big impact. Hope those tips help.
@@team2films resolution and bitdepth do not really matter in this context. chromatic adaption in resolve is the best approximation for white balance corrections it seems. but only raw before demosiac is truly white balance invariant. this is a nasty topic to get right thats why i stress it
Did you have any issues using the Sachtler FSB-6 fluid head with the Blackmagic URSA Cine 12K? The camera alone weighs 4 kg, plus the heavy lenses you were using. I’m considering getting this camera and using it with my DZO Arles lenses, and I assumed I’d need to get a new tripod head as well-along with B-mount batteries, which I haven’t used so far. But since you didn’t seem to have any problems, I’m wondering if I might be fine with my current setup after all. As always, phenomenal work from you guys! Thank you for sharing this kind of content with us for free. We’re still debating whether this camera would fit well into our workflows, as we’re running a rather small production company and mostly own Sony gear. But as you put it just the price point alone, for the amount of features it offers, really makes us think it might be worth it for our documentary and product work after all. All the best & greetings from Bremen, Germany 🇩🇪
The price point is VERY compelling. Sony makes fine cameras, but this is in a different league from the FX6 and FX9, and even from the Burano. We also firmly believe that process influences the product. The camera's build and features will begin to influence the products you make. I think we're going to see a lot of growth in Blackmagic's camera lineup, including features like autofocus, and this cine 12k tech trickling down to smaller cameras. It seems quite reasonable that you might be able to build out an entirely BM fleet over the next few years. The FSB-6 was fine. We've used heavier 35mm film cameras on it. While it's not ideal about the only feature that you loose is the ability to counterbalance the camera. It can handle the Cine12k at moderate angles, but I'm definitly tightening down the brakes before walking away. The Cine12k will pair nicely with the Arles. Although I have to say, we had both the Arles and Vista Primes... the Vista Primes are sharper wide open and have nicer bokeh. But we thought the Arles were amazing, and only saw their flaws once the we got to compare them to the Vista Primes. Remember, you can run the camera off v-mounts with the correct plate, but won't be able to access the high frame rate options unless you have 28v v-mounts. So glad you enjoyed the video, please shout if you have any more questions.
@@team2films Wow, not only do you create incredibly informative content in such a well-structured and digestible way-for free-but you also take the time to respond to questions in such detail and at record speed. That truly makes watching your videos feel like an interactive experience, and it really gives me the sense of being part of your community. It’s great to know that we can continue using our tripod head for now and that the Arles lenses pair well with the Cine 12K. We specifically chose them based on the reviews out there and will likely keep them as our main set. And since we don’t shoot wide open all the time, that sharpness difference is totally fine for us. The only thing still holding us back a little is knowing that Sony is watching all these developments too. They’ve been quiet for so long now, and we can’t shake the thought that if we buy this camera today, Sony might drop an FX6 Mark II or FX9 Mark II next week-packing all the features we need, plus their amazing new AI autofocus. Especially with the recent firmware update allowing external BRAW recording on the FX6, it feels like internal BRAW might not be too far off either. That said, I completely agree with your point: hypothetical cameras in our heads shouldn’t dictate real-world purchasing decisions. The fact is, we need a powerful new A-cam right now, and this one checks a lot of boxes. Autofocus would be a nice-to-have, making the camera even more versatile, but it’s not a dealbreaker for us. Matching Sony and Blackmagic color-wise isn’t a huge issue either, especially for multi-cam shoots, and we’d still have our Sony cameras for situations where autofocus is crucial. Plus, with tools like DJI’s LiDAR autofocus, there are already great solutions out there. Again, thanks a ton for your detailed reply! P.S.: Another thing that’s been holding us back from pulling the trigger on the URSA Cine 12K is that, despite thinking about it for a long time, we still haven’t made the switch from Premiere to DaVinci Resolve. The steep learning curve-especially for color grading-has been a bit intimidating. But then I checked your website, and what do you know? You already offer an online course for people in exactly that situation. Awesome!
Hahah! Sorry, hope it doesn't come across as an advertisement. Like we say, there are many great cameras out there and this is one of them. It won't be the right camera for everyone, there will always be better choices in certain circumstances, but we're impressed with the value this camera delivers. We get excited about cool tech, not about buying cameras. We appreciate you watching and taking the time to leave a comment. Great to have you here.
@ I appreciate the feedback. We are on our second Ursa Cine (first one returned due to overheating and sensor problems) and our second one has a center line appear at random times but it’s nearly impossible to replicate the issue. Wondering if it can be fixed with firmware.
@@adamwalters9651 I'm sorry that you are having issues! Please please get in touch with your retailer or blackmagic support. I'm sure they will be able to help.
Thanks so much for watching, and we appreciate you sharing those thoughts. It’s important to distinguish between the camera, the grading and the lenses being used. Most cameras with clean lenses will deliver what you are describing as a clinical image. Character is introduced through colour grading and character is introduced through lensing. As this video is focusing on the camera. It would be inappropriate to use stylised colour grades or characterful lenses as they would stop you from objectively evaluating the camera. This camera is very much capable of producing the kinds of images that you are looking for. I hope that’s helpful.
We're not sure! But I would imagine it's a pretty short list of manufacturers who can. The important thing to note here is that this is not an 'off the shelf' sensor. It's custom manufactured for Blackmagic.
As an aside from the really informative video, how do you manage to upload grainy footage to UA-cam as here without it turning to mush? I've tried so many ways of doing this to no avail, so really don't bother with YT as I don't like how it manages my footage. For reference I'm talking about 4k footage from Resolve. Oh and all batteries should be chargeable by USB C without needing a specific charger for that battery. Saves, weight, space and less likely to be missing a vital charger that fits one item only.
Have you tried uploading in intra-frame formats? DNxHR, ProRes? And keep the bandwidth high. At least 50Mbit/s. Just know that YT has a file size limit. I think it's 250GB per file.
@@team2films - ta for the quick response. 8k uploads is unfortunately not an option for the content I would be doing. Not been able to find a codec for 4k that works for myself. ☹
@@akyhne Good question, we've done some prores uploads. But have never seen a reason to continue doing so. I think 8k makes the biggest difference for us. It definitely increases render times though!
I'm a bit confused about your explaination of 12k to 8k. Reading pixels by 2x2 to 1 doesn't half the resolution, it divides it by 4. It should be a true 6k downsampled. You calculated right after it's a ratio of 3/2 so it should read a 3x3 area and give a 2x2 pixel image. Also very interested as why there is no 6k in camera as it seems very straightforward to get a proper 6k from a 12k sensor with this patern. I love 6k resolution for 4k delivery
That's a common misconception. I totally get where you are coming from. If the camera is 96 megapixels give or take, if you half the number of pixels, you get 48 megapixels. 48 megapixels makes an approximately 8k image. You need to remember you are halving the number of pixels, not halving the horizontal width. That's why it's easier to derive an 8 and 4 image from a 12k sensor than it is to get a 6k image. Does that explanation help?
@team2films sure if you half the pixel you get 8k. But with your explaination you are building a pixel from a 2x2 area so 4 pixel. So you are dividing the pixel density by 4 not by 2.
Also: the 12K resolution = 80 MP. Damn. (12.288 x 6.480 = 79,6 MP). So it has a lot more pixels than ANY high end photography DSLM, while having that insane framerates as well as RAW.
So since, BMD has joined L-Mount, this tech has insane potential as well for the DSLM market. I'm just hoping they build a full frame L-Mount camera with that sensor tech!
"We're gonna do something that we've not seen anyone else do yet" yeah that's why I love Team 2 Films...
Hehehe. Thanks! We try :)
WOW!!! THE IDEA THAT THE FULL SENSOR IS BEING USED AT BOTH 8K AND 4K WHILE MAINTAINING RAW IS INCREDIBLE!!!! Until now, I figured they were downsampling their image, I didn't understand the "magic" behind that until now. Very awesome!
Yeah, that's pretty wild right! Very clever technology.
To be clear, it is not RAW. It has RAW like features. But, because you can’t use any formula to take the 4K BRAW output pixel and determine exactly what each photo site’s value was, it is not true RAW. This is why RAW cameras crop. It isn’t possible to sum 4 photo sites into a single value and then extract that number back from the single value to what each of the 4 was.
That doesn’t mean its not awesome. It just means its not true RAW.
@ Great point Scott! Thank you!
@@ScottBalkum Heya Scott! Love your work with Kessler by the way. Thanks for watching our video. Yes, that's a valid point about the 4k mode not being 'true raw'.
'Raw' is such a tricky topic anyway, because not even Red cameras can be considered as 'truly raw' as lossy compression is being applied to signal regardless of compression ratio or resolution.
In the case of Blackmagic Raw, there is a partial de-mosaic happening before the image is recorded. Would you say that it's more valid to call the 8k mode 'raw' as in theory it is working with the image directly off the sensor? The pixel pairing is happening at a sensor level, it's not post-processed.
@@team2films You are correct on RED as well, although there is a level of compression with RED that can accurately calculate each photo site’s value. But absolutely, if you start using higher compressions (and most of us do), we are stepping out of the “true RAW” area. And thank you on the Kesller stuff!
As for what they call it? Eh, Marketing is Marketing. They want to focus on resolution and to me, resolution is great, but the picture is really what I care about most and I’d rather it be called a 6K camera with an image like no other, because at 6K, it would have an image like no other (compared to bayered). The only way to call something RAW is to be able to calculate from the recorded file, each and every photo site’s value from the sensor. With the 4K or even 8K RAW modes, there is no way to do so. If it is de-mosaicing before being recorded, that information is lost forever.
It is a fun topic to discuss because we’re at a level of output that is so good, we’re complaining about the Country of origin and species of wood for hand carved tooth picks. ;) We’re all outputting at 4K and rarely 8K and in that case, this camera will absolutely put on an impressive show, sometimes besting ARRI, RED and SONY and sometimes not.
That’s the position BM has put themselves in, and, its exactly the position you want to be in. You are creating imagery that competes with the best. That is why BM has impressed me so much lately. The next gen of this sensor is going to be incredible.
Once again just WOW, the amount of research and production value, as well as the technical explanation of the Sensor Technology is by far the BEST I´ve seen on UA-cam. Thanks Leon and Natalie, you once again outdone yourself! 🙌
Thank-you Marco. That means a lot coming from yourself. Does no one else read patents at bedtime?
@@team2films Every one has different bed time habits i suppose 😂
Fantastic video! The best explanation of this new sensor tech we have seen so far.
Thanks so much 😊 We love the content you make on your channel too.
Thanks for including an interview, with a small and upcoming colorist, who did color grading on a few smaller indie films, like 'Le Mans 66', 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens', 'Guardians of the Galaxy', 'Avatar: The Way of the Water', 'Thor: The Dark World', 'Gravity', 'Iron Man 3' and more.
I'm sure he will be successful in the future ☺️ 🤪 😂
Btw., it's refreshing to actually get an opinion from someone, who knows what he's talking about. So many have criticized this camera, just because of the RGBW sensor and the camera being from BMD. Without ever touching the camera.
Hahahah, yeah, he has a bright future. Let's watch to see where he goes. He's such a nice guy. Very knowledgable, dedicated to his craft and happy to share.
There's a lot of brand bias in the industry. The Cine 12k might not be the greatest camera, but it is EASILY good enough, and at $15,000 it's hard to ignore.
Thanks for watching and commenting. It's great to have you here.
@@team2films I think that these people are just people who don't have the skills to get a good picture out of most cameras.
I saw a review from a British UA-camr. You probably know him. I don't recall his name, but he's probably in the 40s or 50s. He has a large handlebar moustache.
In his review of the Pyxis, he said that if you can't get a great video out of any camera released within the last ten years, it's probably not the fault of the camera. I think that was a great response to the haters of BMD cameras.
@@akyhne Yeah, we'd agree with that. It's the camera operator that makes the image, not the camera. There's still room for the camera to have an impact, but the camera is rarely the critical point of failure.
I don’t believe BMD has haters. The cost of content in industry class they are aiming to play in - can easily cost $15K per second. Let’s not get sidetracked by gear enthusiasm and forget that these tools have real-world implications for investments and career expectations.
The reason DPs invest $200K in glass and cameras isn’t that they can’t shoot the same subject matter on an iPhone-it’s because these tools have been tried and tested, providing fidelity and assurance in the quality of their work. BMD has finally delivered a camera that these DPs can genuinely get behind and use professionally.
Beyond image quality and camera class, this camera introduces an advanced level of modern film technology that no other camera on the market can currently provide or match. BMD has all the supporting capabilities as a company built around this camera. They simply need to refine, test, and showcase a workflow that integrates seamlessly into existing production models-while proving it to be faster than the Arri/Sony/Avid proxy-to-online workflows. BMD undoubtedly has the capability; they just fall short in demonstrating it effectively.
Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus complimenting you on the thoroughness and quality of this video. A++
Thanks so much, we're so glad everyone has been enjoying this video.
You're the Blackmagic cousins of Media Division. No wonder your channel is growing so fast! Your content is AMAZING!
That is quite a compliment. We love the work Nikolaus does over at Media Division. It's an honour to be compared. Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment. It's appreciated.
I had the same thought -- this is a spot on comparison!
Now this is the level of detail we need more of on UA-cam!
And... hi Tashi! 👋
Thanks Kaur, we appreciate you!
You've done it again, Leon and Natalie! Another incredible video packed with valuable insights. Thanks for sharing all of this, I always appreciate your content!
Thank-you Tobia. We're so happy to have you here.
one thing I've also noticed with the RGBW sensors is that the noise pattern is very pleasing, because it has more luma noise than chroma noise, which looks more like film than digital (in my opinion at least)
Yeah it has a great look
Definitely, the best explanation of this sensor from Blackmagic and the value that it provides that I have seen online. Thank you.
Thanks so much.
Excellent video, thank you so much! You obviously invested a LOT of time in researching and creating this deep dive.
I do think that you missed a VERY important comparison that would have added to the 12k resolution debate. That of downsampling in post. You did mention it but I have heard several times online about the benefits of shooting in 12k and then downsizing to 4k.
It would be so informative if you could use the footage already used in this video to create some comparisons between native 4k to downsized/sampled in post 12k footage to see if there is any noticeable difference in quality in a 4k deliverable/output.
I truly believe this camera is revolutionary and will shake up the industry completely. Greig Frazer is already using the 17k Cine and is posting on X.
That's a good point about comparing post down-sampling. I can almost guarantee it will be better than the camera's internal 4k. Essentially that's what we did when producing this video, we shot everything at 12k for a 4k release. We'll see if we can work that comparison you suggested into a future video.
Thanks so much Barry for watching and taking the time to engage in the comments.
The rolling shutter being under 7ms in 8k is huge. Even 12k at 12ms is nothing to frown at. There's nothing more disappointing to me than very high resolution footage that looks like jello.
Yeah, it's wild. Remember that the readout times we've shared are open gate. So when shooting at 16:9 the readout is even quicker. It's pretty amazing how good it is. It's basically a non-issue.
One thing that also helps a lot is that with braw you can (mostly) fix rolling shutter by stabilizing from gyro data. Of course there is a limitation that you need resolve to do that (I could be wrong though) There's a lot of videos regarding that topic if you're interested.
@@villepeltonen00 Yeah that's true, but at 12ms and 6 in 8k mode rolling shutter is basically a non-issue. The Arri Alexa's rolling shutter is 7ms.
I absolutely loved the explanation of RGBW technology. The intro is just out of this world 🌟the force be with you 🌟😉
This video is astonishing. Than you so much for the resource.
You are most welcome.
Gotta love Team 2 Films for the no-nonsense approach 🤝
Thanks Robin, we appreciate that.
Absolute masterpiece. Great work here 👏🏿
Thanks so much!
Thanks for the detailed look at the camera and its footage! The new option without accessories is priced quite well.
I would call this video EXTRAORDINARY! So well made and narrated. Great work.
Thank-you so much, appreciate you taking the time to leave a nice comment.
Thanks for the super clear explanation on how the sensor works - nicely done!
You are most welcome Peter!
Finally! I was really waiting when you will make a review and test of this camera
It's here! Thanks so much for waiting :)
Holy sh*t. HOLY SH*T!
The image quality from this is absolutely incredible. So many technological breakthroughs in one camera! And that price, compared to other flagship cine cameras, is extremely reasonable.
I need this camera, and a 12k TV!
Hahah, it is amazing! But remember, this camera isn't about 12k deliverables. It's about making better quality 8 or 4k deliverables! Be happy with your 4k TV :)
@@team2films i was just about to say it, no reason for 12k tv, not even an 8k tv. For an 8k tv to make any sense it has to be over 85 inches for the standard viewing distance of 2-3meters. So 4k is more than enough unless u live in a mention with separate building for a movie theater and even than with 12k footage u'll be in one class with IMAX dual 4k laser projectors technology witch they claim sum up to 12k, which is ridiculous, normal cinema is up to 4k lol
P.S. Most of the things nowadays are played on an iphone screen🤣🤣
Well done, yet again. Thank you for simplifying the complex - plus demonstrating the theory on a real world shoot. Great work!
You are so welcome. Thanks for watching.
@@team2films One of the things I've noticed (and something I haven't seen anyone comment on) is the relatively loud fan noise. I'm curious if this is just me. I don't think it would be a problem outdoors, but if you require a quiet set, that could be problematic. I doubt it would have influenced my decision, but something that's very noticeable (on my unit anyway). I understand WHY it could be necessary as it produces a TON of heat, but I can't find a way to adjust it even for short periods of time..
Very well made job! T2F, and of course Blackmagic! 🙏🏻
Thanks so much, great to have you here.
Uh, nice! Looking forward to this review by you guys!
Heya Stefan! So nice to see you. Thanks for watching, we hope the video lived up to your expectations!
Thank you so much for making these!
Our pleasure
I am again astounded that you guys don’t have many many more subscribers. It will come ! Brilliant video (but now I want the damn camera 😊)
Ah, that's so kind of you. Thank-you. We're glad to have the subscribers we do. Thanks everyone.
This video was fantastic. Incredible information. As a PYXIS, 6K Pro (converted to PL) and 4K owner I'm now super interested in this seeing as the price has just dropped to $7000 USD! For me it's the minuscule Rolling Shutter values, internal NDs, Illuminated, buttons, OLPF, onboard monitor and ability to shoot without sensor cropping at 8k or 4K that's brilliant. I would have to test if I could make it fit on an RS4 Pro myself as obviously I design hardware, I may be able to design a solution. Thanks for this video.
Hahaha, if you can fit it on an RS4... I'll eat my hat! (probably not) So glad you enjoyed the video.
@ haha you never knowwwww 👍🏿🔥
Fantastic video!!
Glad you liked it!
Great job. I’ve shot with the new cine 12k and own the OG version. They are an amazing camera. Thanks for your in-depth and insightful well produced video about it. Hopefully people wake up and buy these things because if they sell, we should see more similar products in the future from BMD.
So glad you've been having a good experience with both 12k's. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Curiously the internal downsampling (I assume, see addendum below) of the camera produces halos around sharp image detail. This is visible in the green light under the shepards brewery in the cityscape scene at 13m03s. If you have contacts at BMD, it would be nice to point this out. Not sure if this is an easy software fix or not, but it's a bit odd to see this. It would be nice to not have those over-undershoots around fine detail when downsampling from 12k to 4k. And yes, I am well aware that this is the definition of pixelpeeping. However, I think its fair to point out that whatever resizing filter they are using, a slightly less artefacty one would be nice and probably is not rocket science (bilinear vs. bicubic).
Addendum to the above: this could be down to resolve default resizing algorithms and not inherent to the camera, that I don't know. Would be cool if you could check where that might come from.
Love the Video. Excellent test shoot, colorist interview and overall presentation.
Cheers from Germany.
I went back and checked, I think it is somewhat present in the source image. Changing resize filter can minimise the artefacts but cannot completely remove them. That's valid feedback to provide. The best place for you to post that would most likely be on the Blackmagic forum. Feel free to post screenshots if that helps. So yes, it appears there is something in the filter kernel used in the 4k mode that's adding artefacts on those high contrast objects. I am impressed though with how closely the 8 and 4k match. It's an outstandingly versatile camera.
Thanks so much for watching the video, and thanks for your kind comments too. We're glad the video is coming across as intended!
@@team2films Thank you for checking!
I agree that 8K and 4K mode are very close. I'll see how I can report that (not a BMD customer yet, just a resolve user).
Those deep dives are valuable and you make them worthwhile to watch.
Cheers
that camera in space animation is dope!
Thanks! That took two whole days to produce!
In the field of CMOS Image Sensor design, this CFA pattern has a preferred name of RGB3W over RGBW.
RGBW means that the color filter array (CFA) is primarily Bayer (a group of 2x2, 4 pixels, RGGB), then replacing one of the G filter with W filter.
RGB3W has a CFA group of 6x6, 36 pixels, then each row, or column will have a R pixel, a G pixel, a B pixel, and 3W pixels accordingly.
Thanks for that clarification. Appreciated.
Really nice video. You put a ton of work into this and it shows. It should be noted that the white or clear photo sites do not contribute to resolution, only light levels/DR. So, although there are 12K of photosites, There are only 6K of resolution that is actually captured.
Now that 6K still creates an incredible 4K image and will even generate an 8K image that has more detail than 4K, but at 12K, you aren’t actually getting 12K of resolution. Some will claim I am just hating on BM and its far from it. BM has seriously impressed me over the last few years. What I don’t like, is the marketing team marketing this cam as a 12K when its not. Just market it as a 6K plus. Its incredible and produces an incredible image. But, not 12K.
It's great to have you here Scott! Thanks so much for your kind compliment.
I'm curious about your source regarding the claim that the wideband photo sites do not contribute towards resolution? It would seem to us that both the narrow and wide band photo sites contribute towards the images resolution. Whether or not it's capable of full 12k fidelity is one thing... but I doubt it's as simple as saying it's effective resolution is only half. Additionally, Bayer cameras also suffer from the same issues of effective resolution vs claimed resolution. So in order to compare cameras we'd need to downgrade every camera we consider? With that in mind, does it not become a moot matter to some degree?
We agree with you about the camera's marketing. Labelling the camera with '12k' doesn't highlight the camera's relevance for creative productions.
You don't come across at all as hating. We appreciate you contributing to the conversation. Like we always say, there are many great cameras out there, and this is one of them. Sony, Arri, Red, and Canon all make amazing cameras. We're glad people have the choice.
@@team2films Thats interesting. Never realized that but it makes sense.
What a "Video"
The Intro itself is pure Kino👌🏻
Thanks so much. Glad to have it out there, it's been in the works for a while.
@ and it was worth it. Thank you for making it🙏🏻
You did a wonderful job of explaining the technology. Now, I have to remove this video from my watch history, or UA-cam will think I am in the market for a $15k camera. Heck, they are already trying to sell me a private jet.
Hahahahah. That's too funny :) Thanks so much for watching. Glad you enjoyed the explanation even if you are not in the market for a new camera..... yet! 🤣
🤣🤣🤣
Man what a review!!
Wow! I'm impressed! I'm thrilled to see some features from this camera on a BMPCC6k/4k
Yeah, it will be exciting to see how Blackmagic develops this technology.
Nice, but I don't really like where this video is going. I for one purchased the BMPCC 6k Pro after spending hours watching youtube content about it. What 'UA-cam experts' didn't say is the camera is flawed with frame drops (I thought this was because I used USB drive, purchased a 1 To Angel bird, the issue persist). This in fact came with filming with 6k in Constant bitrate 8 (or even 12), because it never happens in the camera 4k mode. This is the experience purchasing a 6k Pro and filming in 6 k : (1)framedrops (2) I can't use properly 4k mode, as using 24mm lens make you film in 50mm in 4k, 50mm looks 85mm, etc.. because the sensor used is smaller so hard to get wide shots (3)very long exports for 6k footages, even longer if I film in high quality, even with a good PC/Mac. (4)No one f***ing watch videos in 6k lol.
People working in the cinema industry use cameras on film sets, they don't need to buy one, and all of us independant filmmakers purchase gear according to our own needs. And this 8k / 12k "thing sounds a bit ridiculous. Maybe my understanding is limited, I just wanted to share it because I feel the high resolution feature is a bit of a luring approach in many videos we find on UA-cam.
Sorry you are having problems with your 6K. We've shot with several 6K Pro's and have never experienced that issue. Perhaps you should contact customer support?
Don't forget... no one is suggesting that we should make 12k deliverables. The camera can produce 12k when needed, but is equally as capable when filming in its 4k mode. Many filmmakers will choose to capture 12 or 8k to help them produce better quality 4k deliverables. Hope that helps!
Thanks so much for watching and commenting.
Great work guys. Will probably be purchasing this in a few years when the price comes down.
It's a great camera. Not without its flaws, but an incredible tool in the hands of a skilled cinematographer! I hope you enjoy it.
This might be the best cinema camera on paper
It's pretty good in the field too! Thanks so much for watching.
Very interesting break down of this amazing tech & camera, thank you!
Thanks Peter, you are most welcome.
Great review and explanation of how the sensor functions. Footage looks amazing.
Thanks so much :)
Appreciate the video Team2, we learn a lot.👍🙏
You are so welcome.
Please do share some of the raw footage for us to practice, and if you have the later Ursa Mini Pro 12K OLPF (RGBW Sensor one) please do compare the dynamic range and image quality. My budget is a bit limited, just wanted to know if UMP12K will get my expectations ok😊
We'll see what we can do to share footage. It's quite large naturally and there's some expense involved with hosting. Have you seen the newly announced price for the base model of the Cine 12k LF?
@@team2films yeahhhh new price is new year gift from BMD 😍
Excellent video! It’s an exciting time for cameras, lots of great options at increasingly competitive price points.
Interested to see how this is adopted into the market
Yeah, we're interested to see too. There's so much brand bias out there that can get in the way of objective choices. As we like to say, 'there are many great cameras, and this is one of them' :) Thanks for watching. Great to have you here.
The sensor in the URSA is similar to the X-Trans sensors in FujiFilm camera. It doesn’t use a normal Bayer pattern and because of this, their sensors punch above their range in light sensitivity, sharpness, and noise performance vs other APS-C sensors.
Thanks so much for watching, it's great to have you here.
Yes, in regard to their low light sensitivity they are similar to an x trans. Although from what we understand the x Trans is more similar to bayer than it is to the RGBW employed in the Cine 12k.
This video feels like an ad, but it’s a super cool watch regardless
Heya! Thanks so much for watching. Tips are always welcome, don’t want it to have an ad feel, because it is just genuine praise for a cool product with an accessible price. Great to have you here.
Another great video! I really appreciated the discussion with the colorist, your spec shoot was great, and I love the animations.
I hope you do some tutorials on how to do those intros.
Thanks Max. Always appreciated. Yes, we'll hang onto the files and hopefully make time to do a tutorial at some point! You can see how bad our green screen was lit. 🤣
Amazing video once again.
I REALLY appreciate the sensor explanation (diagonal receptors).
A) I have the original 12K, I know they made changes other than sensor size, but did you learn what those differences are?
B) I don't think you mentioned the 9K mode at all. What's different about it?
C) As I understand, BM can get such amazing performance out of B-Raw because the camera does 'half of the debayering' in the hardware, while preserving the rest for DaVinci. I don't have a strong understanding of this, but also How this compares with the Other Manufacturers process.
D) As with everything Blackmagic, it's the entire pipeline / workflow approach, efficiency, cost that make it difficult to justify anything else.
Blackmagic Camera -> Blackmagic Raw Codec -> now Blackmagic Media -> Blackmagic Davinci Resolve
E) The hardest to express to others isn't just how much Money you save without losing quality, but how much Time you save, and how many failure points have been removed from the entire process.
A From what I understand the concept of the sensor is not significantly different, but I'm sure the newer sensor is much refined and has larger photo sites.
B 9k mode is a simple crop.
C I guess, it's not about where the de-moasic happens, but more to do with the quality of the de-mosaic.
D and E Yes, it's an incredible value prop. It might not be as good as a Venice or Alexa... but 90% of the quality for 15% of the price? That's a good deal.
Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to leave a comment.
Read the patent! Love it, can’t wait to dig in too :).
Some light bed time reading!
Quality video! This is hopefully as good as it sounds for video. I'm really hoping for foveon sensors to improve for photos.
Great quality content, I'm glad your channel got recommended. I tip my hat to all involved :)
It's great to have you here. Welcome!
Thanks for the informative video. Would you mind sharing how you achieved that particular blurring effect? It's super well done!
Thanks so much! Which blurring effect are you referring to?
@ the effect when the whole screen is blurred (speaker is blurred).
@@DanielKurganov It's a combo of Gaussian blur, with some fast noise overlaid to give that frosted effect.
Awesome work! I'd love to get my hands on one of these...
Head to your nearest trade show! I hope you get to play with it.
Nice review. Honestly big props to BM. what a great product for such a "low" price.
Yeah, the price is incredible.
what I hates when reviews say that "the readout speed of the sensor improves when you crop in" which just simply isn't true. because they change the area of the sensor that is being read out, meaning that the skew of the image, the rolling shutter artefacts, will actually be the same. Not with blackmagics 12k and 17k sensors, they still read out the full area of the sensor, and it actually does indeed improve the rolling shutter performance
Yeah, that's a good point about cropping. We are very impressed with the camera's ability to change readout speed so dramatically.
Cool review and nice explanation of sensor technology! Thank you!
Fun fact: in terms of bmd sony’s fx6 sensor IMX510AQL should be advertised as 8k, because it is quad bayer sensor with 48M photosites, in 2x2 groups of the same band sensitivity, it has two stage diagonal binning, first stage in analog on readout, second stage in digital after adc, so only 12M photosite values going out of the sensor, that is why in specs it is 12Mp. This design is helpful for dynamic range and better snr, while has relatively fast readout speed.
Thanks so much, and thanks for sharing those facts. Appreciate that. That's super interesting. We're always learning.
I AM AMAZED , THANK A LOT
You are welcome!
You explained pretty good but everything comes in budget and hardware. Blackmagic URSA Cine have good BRAW codec, but not like ProRes raw. 12K sensor technology camera do matters but higher quality, compressed and good codec like ProRes raw codec not available in this camera. That’s why most of the hollywood film use ProRes Raw codec. And also not everybody can afford to buy more then 10K Mac or windows hardware to run it BRAW. On the market, there is others color grading software available which work better then DaVinci Resolve and also compatible with ProRes codec. I think that’s why bigger production company ignoring the Blackmagic URSA cine. I felt like Blackmagic Design products are bias and people like me can’t waste the money on bias products.
Hello. Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to leave a comment. ProRes Raw is a good codec however here are two things to consider. Number one, I can almost guarantee that no one is using prores raw in ‘Hollywood’x The codec has very poor support and there are not any high end cameras capable of recording it internally. Number two there are no discernible differences in quality prores raw is capable of delivering and what Blackmagic raw is capable of delivering. I hope that information is helpful. It’s great to have you here.
@@team2films gotcha.
Does this camera has "pre-recording" (cache recording as Sony calls it) ... That understated feature is soooo useful for wildlife, but also for ANY documentary work.
No, not that I am aware. Those are the sorts of things that could be added in future via firmware though.
17:17 “Thinking Face.” 😂
Gah! It's weird when you have to watch yourself talk to other people! Thanks for enduring my many weird faces!
I’m always confused about the 12k OLPF, since I can’t really find any information on it’s sensor. But some say it’s an in-house sensor as well. So does it have the same pattern and scaling technology as the 12k cine?
Yes, it's the same technology as the new Cine 12k LF. Obviously it's an older version. The new sensor in the LF will be more refined, and it has larger photosites as it's LF rather than s35.
@ Okok that’s interesting! Thanks for the reply!🙏
The best part? Blackmagic have said they're working on autofocus for future cameras. Which is the one thing they've been lacking along with tighter industrial design.. but you can't complain at all for the price!
I think the industry needs to differentiate between image size and image resolution when describing sensors.
Often what we're talking about is the size of the digital image's pixel count rather than the count of photosites for a given sensor size. What's important is the minimum possible change in /optical/ information for a given space on a sensor- case in point with the 12k vs 8k vs 4k footage example. The /optical/ resolution of a typical 4k (in dimension) digital image is evidently capable of containing the spatial/optical information measured from a 12k photosite sensor. So there's something not quite right with how we designate 'resolution' to cameras. Perhaps if we're using bayer (rggb) or RGBW (rwrwgwgwbwbw), we should be considering the true spatial/optical resolution of a camera as a factor of the mosaic architecture:
So for bayer (rggb), having 4 photosites per digital pixel, would require a sensor photosite count of a /minimum/ of 33.2million to get a true 1:1 readout to a UHD image size. Nevermind downsampling. But this makes me wonder, for BMD'S RGBW (rwrwgwgwbwbw), having a massive 12 photosites per digital pixel.. does that then mean for a UHD image output you need 8.3mp x 12= 99.5million? At '12k' the s35 Ursa 12k has 79.6million so if the theory/my math is right, there's still some headroom to fill.
Yes, they have! Looking forward to seeing how that's implemented. It will really speak to the large creator and solo/small filmmaker market.
A Burano VS URSA Cine is the test I wanna see ! Those low light shots were gorgeous. Curious how much denoise you went into ? Only saw the 12K at a couple of shows (no rental here in Paris), Noise floor seemed to be busier than what I’ve seen in your video !
There's definitely 3200 shots in the video without any denoise, so if you've not seen any issues, that's a good thing.
We've worked with the Burano, and we enjoyed it. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd go with the URSA. That's an easy decision. The Burano undelivered considering its price. The URSA over delivers. It's awesome, as long as you can mange a full-size camera!
@@team2films Yep, the physical size is something that I can manage. Power is the real issue for me. Lot of doc work traveling abroad by plane...
@@Horizons_Roses Gotcha. Those 290's last over three hours, but they might be more difficulty for your to fly with. SWIT has some flight legal capacities. Check out their BIVO line. Can't praise USB C charging on those batteries enough. Makes them so much more convenient to travel with.
@@team2films Thanks for the info. This cam will shine on brand and commercial content. For the higher end doc... I'll keep on waiting on whats will comes out of Sony or let's hope Nikon/Red !
An outstanding presentation
Thank-you. Appreciate you taking a moment to leave a comment.
Agreed.
As an AC imo this camera is hindered by workflow. Arri has its eco system with hi5 and cine rt and more. The mini LF and 35 are compact and can be fitted in gimbals like the trinity cyclo and ronin 2, the cage offers loads of mounting space. The 12k has an awesome sensor, but that’s not enough. It needs lemo connections to hook stuff up, fiz, Teradek, cine rt etc. maybe even integrated fiz to become a real global player. Until then you won’t see it used on set!
Trinity & cyclo are steadycam systems before anyone corrects me….
Yeah, that's true. It does lack the extended ecosystem that cameras like the Alexa offer. Hopefully that's an area where we will see the camera improve. It should be noted though that...
There is lemo for serial run/stop/start. Focus and Zoom can also be controlled via USB C. I know that some won't consider that a professional port, but I suspect we will see perceptions change on that. And there definitely is pro FIZ that will work well with the Cine 12k.
I think size is the biggest challenge that you've mentioned. I think once its tech trickles down into bodies like the PYXIS that won't be an issue anymore though as you'll be able to run an A and B setup.
What I'd say is... don't write the camera off without using it. There's so much brand bias in the industry... "to do that, you NEED this", "This is the only choice if you want to do that". Give it a try and see what you think. And of course provide feedback on what's missing too. An Alexa or Venice is around 5 or 6 times the cost. Is it 5 times better?
@@team2films I see your point and if a project comes along I wouldn’t say no, but usb-c can’t ever be a “professional” port. It’s flimsy and doesn’t have the locking function of lemo. If you want proof that Lemo is superior to all, watch Ahsoka episode 2 (~minute 9:30). Lemo is so superior, it’ll be used in the far future when light sabers will be a thing. :)
@@LightW 😂🤣 If it's lightsaber ready then I am in!
Blackmagic have introduced locking USB - C to their cameras. It should also be noted that red uses usb c for their monitors too. I have broken plenty of lemo cables. I have also broken plenty of sdi cables too. No cable is immune to damage. To be professional, it just needs to be used by professionals. I'm not saying that it's better than lemo, but good enough is a different thing. Just saying. A lot of people have said 'that's not for professionals' before.
Very good Video thanks
Thanks Robert
Blackmagic really do consistently kick out new and interesting tech for very reasonable prices.
There are certain features that are still going to count them out of the high end - the dual native ISO of the Venice or 'extended sensitivity' of the Arri cameras for example. When shooting TV/Film dynamic range matters more than ever, and DoPs I work with consistently praise the highlight retention of the new Arri cameras. BM don't really have any respect among DPs in the TV/Film world, I would love to see one of these in the test room though and get a DP who has spent their life looking at images to see what they think.
Thanks so much for watching. Yeah, blackmagic make some incredible tech. We think brand bias is a bigger obstacle for the Cine 12k than dynamic range. While the Alexa and Venice have better dynamic range, it's not leaps and bounds better. A stop or so makes very little difference practically. I hope that an innovative DP somewhere adopts the camera and shows how capable it is for high end production. The Cine17k might be adopted quicker. Its success could pave the wave for wider 12k adoption.
@@team2films
Brand bias plays a big part for sure. It's not unwarranted... Arri and more recently Sony have delivered solid camera systems that rarely go wrong. The same cannot be said for Blackmagic and Red, who have both delivered cameras which are cumbersome and slow and use prosumer class media that can and does cause issues. Only last week I had a Raptor out and we had recording issues with three Red branded mags (could have been a body issue, but seemed like media). We had to re-shoot stuff and wasted hours. That DoP (and me for that matter) quickly fell back to out Red biases and blamed the brand... (I do know another DIT using 2 raptors on a very high end film, so it's not like they are all terrible)
Red and Sony have had some problems in the past but over the past 5 years I have barely seen another camera on set and they are pretty rock solid.
I was just looking and I can't even find a 'normal' way to offload the media in this camera... that reader you show in the clip is way too cumbersome and is it only ethernet for offloading? Perhaps BM are trying to drive people to their cloud or something, but none of that will fly on a set where we have to reload and backup regularly.
It doesn't really seem like BM are even trying to aim for the TV/Film shooters here to be honest, and fair enough - at that price I expect it's aimed more at the burgeoning creator space.
@@dylanevans5644 I work on television in movies in NYC and you do have a point about the media. It's very tricky when a company decides to force people in a new direction and then doesn't provide a very easy way to walk in that new direction. i think those 8k mags and their current options to offload them are probematic as it relates to blackmagic cameras being used in very fast paced environments. Especially the camera department, those folks, especially the loader have to move very quickly when called upon to make any kind of change. I own a ton of Blackmagic stuff and would buy this camera if I could. But my one gripe would be how they approach media offload on this camera.
As with previous Blackmagic products, it's a great value proposition and an amazing performer. But in the past, the cost has been with reliability. And this is coming from a longtime BM user. I own 5 BM cameras; of these, only two I'd say are still fully functional. Two of the three URSA series cameras I have developed serious issues out of warranty. There's a huge gamut of weak points on BMD cameras, some of them catastrophic, combined with terrible warranty/service. On a cheap pocket camera, the risk is acceptable. But at over 10k price, that's much harder to swallow. Hopefully they've made serious improvements on this generation of products.
Yeah, that's a valid concern. I guess all eyes on the Cine 12k to see if it delivers the reliability that people need.
Only $15000! I'll get two!
You'll be very happy :)
RGBW sensors have been out for a while. Shame they hadn't been included in still cameras earlier, except for Sony cameras
Yes, that's true, RGBW sensors have been out for a while, but they didn't offer much advantage over Bayer.
Although Blackmagic's sensor is also called RGBW, it is VERY different from RGBW CFA's that have come prior. It's a completely different thing.
The previous Blackmagic 12k camera featured one, so this is the second camera to feature this kind of sensor (but beyond that, it's basically completely new).
@@team2films the benefit of rrggbbww is not good for stills. For video due to the existence of temporal denoise it's easy to regain the lost 50% color info. But on stills it's a pure loss
Nice review!
But one point I think is weird. You are comparing the cost of each media for data space at the end of your review. But isn't each codec different in space requirements. So I would argue it is better comparable to take the biggest possible codec on each camera and see how much does it cost to shoot an hour of footage on each camera. That I think would be more appropriate.
Thanks so much! Appreciate you watching and taking the time to engage in the comments.
Yes, we see where you are coming from. It might get a bit complex comparing runtimes between cameras though as there are so many different iterations of codec and resolution.
The space comparison might be more fair than you think though. For example, remember that an Alexa shoots a 4k(ish) image, as can the Cine12k. That means they are both broadly capable of getting the same runtime from the same amount of storage.
Either way, it's a broad indication of value and not meant to be the final metric when choosing a camera.
@@team2films I hear you, but I also agree with the OP. Maybe build a runtime chart and pin it to the top of the comments.
Baseline: 8tb = X-Minutes at 12 / 8 / 4K
How much for comparable runtime on each of the 3 others, in each of thier best modes.
@@G_handle but thr 12k doesn't force you to shoot at max resolution... I don't see how it would be relevant.
Even more, i think the 12k will be used in its max res only like 1% of the time
Btw blackmagic has a calculator of runtime on its website, where you can chose codec resolution and frame rate if you are interested
@lucasvivante8988 Correct.
I own the OG 12K and I mostly consider it an 8K camera that I occasionally pop into 12K mode.
(Though it depends on the project what percentage. Some zero, some 100%. On average, I'd say more like 10-15% ish.)
If you don't see, part of the point here is Comparing apples to apples, when it's more like, oranges, pears, and bananas.
The most relevant thing is dollars for given runtime at given resolution and codec.
How much is a true hour of footage on each given system?
I own Blackmagic, but often rent the others. Producers are often Shocked at how much More it costs to work on Arri, Red, Sony from a bottom line budget perspective.
The question is:
What does that money Buy you in terms of esthetics and production value?
Is that money better spent on Lenses and Lighting?
@G_handle as i experienced working with a c70, it's often less time and money spent on the camera. The 4k is superb and it can record (subpar)raw in sd cards. It fills 95% of my and my clients needs
What about colors, dynamic range, tonality? We’ve seen a lot of new ideas in sensor design (X-trans, RYYB, CYYM, RGBW, Foveon) and for some reason none became widely used (well, except of X-trans, but even it wasn’t used for GFX).
There have been lot's of sensor designs that offer subtle variations on the bayer sensor (like X-Trans). Blackmagic's RGBW stands out because it's not just a variation, but it offers distinct advantages over Bayer. Looking forward to seeing how it's adopted.
The color, dynamic range and tonality of the camera was excellent. If there were issues they would have been flagged in the analysis. Granted, some more specific objective testing would help make that point better though.
Imagine if Sony instead of making a QuadBayer pattern did something similar to this on the FX3... also this opens up the possibility for true black and white shooting, or if BM gets access to sony's latest silicon node
Those are interesting ideas
are those O'Connor tripod legs? they look like my O'Connor but it has red on it. Also for the handhelds where you are walking back and the model is walking towards the camera was that handheld or assisted?
Sachtler Flowtech sticks. The footage when the model is walking is completely handheld. The cameras weight makes it very stable.
How do you guys feel about Fujifilm’s x-trans filters?
Great question. Would love to spend some more time using one.
I would buy the 17K to make documentaries aimed at VR head sets when they have 8k res per eye. Or maybe deliverable to some Imax showings
Have you considered the Cine Immersive?
I bought the camera when it first released - I was surprised at how noisy the image was in specific situations and also I was shocked at how quickly the colour became super noisy whenever I pushed the grade. Especially adding depth to the colour without grain. Any thoughts on this?
Hmmm, sorry you are having problems with noise. It's hard to diagnose without more information. Perhaps you are underexposing the image? When I first picked up the camera, I found that the on camera screen encouraged me to underexpose.
impressive !
Forgot - does it have internal (IBIS- like) image stabilization?
I really hope it does.
No it does not. But neither does the Alexa, Venice, or V-Raptor. It's simply not a needed feature in cameras aimed at this market.
I hope they bring back the fairlight sensor/ bmpcc OG. that thing was pure magic. This is great and all but way too perfect and missing that old film look magic the OG had. Blackmagic can do both, lets go
Ok, great! But who makes a lens that looks great in 12K? And at what cost???
There's lots of affordable lenses that are sharp enough when stopped down to say t4.0. In this video we used the Tokina Vista Primes. Wide open their sharpness is unbelievable. They are a great pairing for this camera and are relatively affordable at about $6000 a lens. Really cool lenses.
you said you were gonna explain the technology behind rgbw. sure the 12k sensor uses a funky cfa pattern for sophisticated readout modes. but the image is demosiaced while recording? why? does that mean that the raw recording is not white balance invariant? and is highlight reconstruction possible?
Highlight reconstruction is definitely possible. And white balance can be adjusted in the raw decode settings.
It's good to note though that white balance can be accurately and easily adjusted even on non-raw recordings. That's not something that is exclusive to raw codecs.
Does that help? Please let us know if you have any more questions.
@team2films i see. i have yet to see a convenient way of correcting white balance on demosiaced images. it might be manageable for slight errors but needs to be adjusted on scene basis to avoid color shifts. also i have seen videos where white balance corrections on braw footage in resolve lead to similar loss in color because of partial debayer or something. white balance invariance is the main selling point of recording raw instead of some log.
@@leonard_roy There are several tools for correcting white balance. The primaries wheels have a control. The HDR white balance control is better as it behaves photometrically. The Chromatic Adaptation effect offers a very scientific way of adjusting white balance. The better your codec, the better your adjustments will be. I.e. a 10-bit codec is going to be a minimum, but a 12-bit codec would be better. Also, the CRI of the lights in the scene will have a big impact.
Hope those tips help.
@@team2films resolution and bitdepth do not really matter in this context. chromatic adaption in resolve is the best approximation for white balance corrections it seems. but only raw before demosiac is truly white balance invariant. this is a nasty topic to get right thats why i stress it
Did you have any issues using the Sachtler FSB-6 fluid head with the Blackmagic URSA Cine 12K? The camera alone weighs 4 kg, plus the heavy lenses you were using. I’m considering getting this camera and using it with my DZO Arles lenses, and I assumed I’d need to get a new tripod head as well-along with B-mount batteries, which I haven’t used so far. But since you didn’t seem to have any problems, I’m wondering if I might be fine with my current setup after all.
As always, phenomenal work from you guys! Thank you for sharing this kind of content with us for free.
We’re still debating whether this camera would fit well into our workflows, as we’re running a rather small production company and mostly own Sony gear. But as you put it just the price point alone, for the amount of features it offers, really makes us think it might be worth it for our documentary and product work after all.
All the best & greetings from Bremen, Germany 🇩🇪
The price point is VERY compelling. Sony makes fine cameras, but this is in a different league from the FX6 and FX9, and even from the Burano. We also firmly believe that process influences the product. The camera's build and features will begin to influence the products you make. I think we're going to see a lot of growth in Blackmagic's camera lineup, including features like autofocus, and this cine 12k tech trickling down to smaller cameras. It seems quite reasonable that you might be able to build out an entirely BM fleet over the next few years.
The FSB-6 was fine. We've used heavier 35mm film cameras on it. While it's not ideal about the only feature that you loose is the ability to counterbalance the camera. It can handle the Cine12k at moderate angles, but I'm definitly tightening down the brakes before walking away.
The Cine12k will pair nicely with the Arles. Although I have to say, we had both the Arles and Vista Primes... the Vista Primes are sharper wide open and have nicer bokeh. But we thought the Arles were amazing, and only saw their flaws once the we got to compare them to the Vista Primes.
Remember, you can run the camera off v-mounts with the correct plate, but won't be able to access the high frame rate options unless you have 28v v-mounts.
So glad you enjoyed the video, please shout if you have any more questions.
@@team2films Wow, not only do you create incredibly informative content in such a well-structured and digestible way-for free-but you also take the time to respond to questions in such detail and at record speed. That truly makes watching your videos feel like an interactive experience, and it really gives me the sense of being part of your community.
It’s great to know that we can continue using our tripod head for now and that the Arles lenses pair well with the Cine 12K. We specifically chose them based on the reviews out there and will likely keep them as our main set. And since we don’t shoot wide open all the time, that sharpness difference is totally fine for us.
The only thing still holding us back a little is knowing that Sony is watching all these developments too. They’ve been quiet for so long now, and we can’t shake the thought that if we buy this camera today, Sony might drop an FX6 Mark II or FX9 Mark II next week-packing all the features we need, plus their amazing new AI autofocus. Especially with the recent firmware update allowing external BRAW recording on the FX6, it feels like internal BRAW might not be too far off either.
That said, I completely agree with your point: hypothetical cameras in our heads shouldn’t dictate real-world purchasing decisions. The fact is, we need a powerful new A-cam right now, and this one checks a lot of boxes. Autofocus would be a nice-to-have, making the camera even more versatile, but it’s not a dealbreaker for us. Matching Sony and Blackmagic color-wise isn’t a huge issue either, especially for multi-cam shoots, and we’d still have our Sony cameras for situations where autofocus is crucial. Plus, with tools like DJI’s LiDAR autofocus, there are already great solutions out there.
Again, thanks a ton for your detailed reply!
P.S.: Another thing that’s been holding us back from pulling the trigger on the URSA Cine 12K is that, despite thinking about it for a long time, we still haven’t made the switch from Premiere to DaVinci Resolve. The steep learning curve-especially for color grading-has been a bit intimidating. But then I checked your website, and what do you know? You already offer an online course for people in exactly that situation. Awesome!
Wonderful!
Many thanks!
So where were you when the original URSA Mini Pro 12K was launched in 2020? It uses the same type of sensor!
Yes, that's true. We hadn't started making reviews yet!
Higher Frame rates even in Lower Res will only work with B-Mount batteries?
Not sure, would have to check the specs on that. Please note those higher frame rates will work with v mount too. Just needs to be 28v batteries.
@@team2films Interesting. Not a lot of options out there (yet). But are you sure it needs to be 28v, the manual states 24-34 range?
Is there still a windowed option?
Yes there are windowed options. For example, the 9K mode is windowed.
@ only 9K or can you have a pixel true, windowed 4K?
Superb review, but I've just had an advertisement overdose....
Hahah! Sorry, hope it doesn't come across as an advertisement. Like we say, there are many great cameras out there and this is one of them. It won't be the right camera for everyone, there will always be better choices in certain circumstances, but we're impressed with the value this camera delivers. We get excited about cool tech, not about buying cameras.
We appreciate you watching and taking the time to leave a comment. Great to have you here.
Great review! Have you come across any sensor issues? Vertical lines?
No, none that I have seen. Of course higher ISO settings show more noise, but I was not aware of any fixed pattern noise. Thanks for watching.
@ I appreciate the feedback. We are on our second Ursa Cine (first one returned due to overheating and sensor problems) and our second one has a center line appear at random times but it’s nearly impossible to replicate the issue. Wondering if it can be fixed with firmware.
@@adamwalters9651 I'm sorry that you are having issues! Please please get in touch with your retailer or blackmagic support. I'm sure they will be able to help.
@ They have been great. Just wanted to see if it’s a common issue at the moment.
@@adamwalters9651 Glad to hear. Heheh 1 of 1 cameras that I used did not exhibit this problem. That's the best I can report.
The specs are great but the image just has the tv commercial look, so clinical no character
Thanks so much for watching, and we appreciate you sharing those thoughts. It’s important to distinguish between the camera, the grading and the lenses being used. Most cameras with clean lenses will deliver what you are describing as a clinical image. Character is introduced through colour grading and character is introduced through lensing. As this video is focusing on the camera. It would be inappropriate to use stylised colour grades or characterful lenses as they would stop you from objectively evaluating the camera. This camera is very much capable of producing the kinds of images that you are looking for. I hope that’s helpful.
Wow. Who makes the sensor chip?
We're not sure! But I would imagine it's a pretty short list of manufacturers who can. The important thing to note here is that this is not an 'off the shelf' sensor. It's custom manufactured for Blackmagic.
The mandatory question : Which software did you use for the bayer animations? 😅
It’s all created in Fusion!
@@team2films Great! Now you know what lesson/tutorial to upload in the upcoming days(wink wink)
@@muscle__rr Heheheh!
As an aside from the really informative video, how do you manage to upload grainy footage to UA-cam as here without it turning to mush?
I've tried so many ways of doing this to no avail, so really don't bother with YT as I don't like how it manages my footage. For reference I'm talking about 4k footage from Resolve.
Oh and all batteries should be chargeable by USB C without needing a specific charger for that battery. Saves, weight, space and less likely to be missing a vital charger that fits one item only.
UA-cam uses better quality processing for particular codecs and resolutions. This video has been uploaded at 8kUHD, h264 422 10-bit. Hope that helps!
Have you tried uploading in intra-frame formats? DNxHR, ProRes? And keep the bandwidth high. At least 50Mbit/s. Just know that YT has a file size limit. I think it's 250GB per file.
@@team2films - ta for the quick response. 8k uploads is unfortunately not an option for the content I would be doing.
Not been able to find a codec for 4k that works for myself. ☹
@@akyhne Good question, we've done some prores uploads. But have never seen a reason to continue doing so. I think 8k makes the biggest difference for us. It definitely increases render times though!
@@imajez1 Why is 8k not an option?
good work
Thanks!
how likely that a version of this sensor will find its way into Pyxis and Cinema Camera 6K bodies?
We really don't know! But we hope it does make it's way into a PYXIS body!
I can assure you that there is no scenario where the burano or c400 are the best cameras
😂🤣😂 Ahh, don’t be so mean! They are perfectly viable cameras. In particular the C400 is a really great proposition.
I'm a bit confused about your explaination of 12k to 8k. Reading pixels by 2x2 to 1 doesn't half the resolution, it divides it by 4. It should be a true 6k downsampled.
You calculated right after it's a ratio of 3/2 so it should read a 3x3 area and give a 2x2 pixel image.
Also very interested as why there is no 6k in camera as it seems very straightforward to get a proper 6k from a 12k sensor with this patern. I love 6k resolution for 4k delivery
That's a common misconception. I totally get where you are coming from.
If the camera is 96 megapixels give or take, if you half the number of pixels, you get 48 megapixels. 48 megapixels makes an approximately 8k image. You need to remember you are halving the number of pixels, not halving the horizontal width.
That's why it's easier to derive an 8 and 4 image from a 12k sensor than it is to get a 6k image. Does that explanation help?
@team2films sure if you half the pixel you get 8k. But with your explaination you are building a pixel from a 2x2 area so 4 pixel. So you are dividing the pixel density by 4 not by 2.
Also: the 12K resolution = 80 MP. Damn. (12.288 x 6.480 = 79,6 MP). So it has a lot more pixels than ANY high end photography DSLM, while having that insane framerates as well as RAW.
So since, BMD has joined L-Mount, this tech has insane potential as well for the DSLM market. I'm just hoping they build a full frame L-Mount camera with that sensor tech!
Yeah. it's got pretty wild specs! It's actually 96 megapixels open gate.