This is an interesting premise that I'd usually have no interest in watching, because I'd expect the average channel to have a preamble about targeting systems in games dating back to the Neolithic period, but thankfully Theo is allergic to that shit. So stoked we have videos now
@@texteel Honestly, a simple matter of confidence from various angles - in my positions, in my abilities at the actual *video making* side of things mainly, and a hefty dose of overambition that kept me from actually making anything at all.
@@Theottreethat is something I understand and can sympathise with. When you have high standards on how you believe thigns should be done, not sure how to achieve them, but because you cant compromise your own standards, you are almost paralyzed. Once again, you are doing good. You are achieving what you want to.
I am honestly very and I mean VERY impressed. Not only is the strong argumentation and snappy editing still here as in your previous video (not that I would expect anything else), but your delivery and the small editing touches (like switching music up) really put this video on a whole new level. The video seems bit calmer and bit more focussed now (haha focus you get it, ok that was bad joke) than your previous work. It honestly reminds me a bit of Matthewmatosis's style of videos. I very much enjoy these videos and hope to see more in the future.
Very well made video. Most people don't end up actually thinking about targeting systems and just say X game would be better if you slapped in Y's targeting system without thinking of how it would fundamentally change the game. The only thing I'd want to add is that multi monster fights in MH do work in arenas where there's enough room given so it's not sliding hitboxes grinding together until one flings itself out of the mess and into you.
Yeah I agree, think you can probably do something in the way of monster AI to make multi-monster fights much more broadly tolerable, but before that point, space so you can actually see is a decent substitute
@@Theottreeoh for sure, actually having enough space for the 2 monsters goes a very long way towards having it not be awful to engage with. Small arenas on the maps, or even worse, pathways between them, always cause issues
Jesus Christ Theo...How about slowing down this conweyor belt of content, a lot of us have been subbed for years and this sudden Tsunami of quality videos is....well kinda scary.
Very well structured video. Didn't have prior experience with the games showcased (bad rhino, I know) and I could still follow from start to finish. Keep at it Theo, this rat is gud
Love both videos! Even though I am not really experienced with spectacle fighter games (the closest I think I've played is the Senran Kagura series LUL), the videos are extremely easy to understand while still going into relative depth about each topic. Seriously Theo, you should be proud of these videos. :)
It's very lucrative to have a silver bullet or a cure-all for topics like these. It's nice to see an insightful view that doesn't feel pressured to be absolute or grandiosely thematic. That's what I've always enjoyed about your viewpoints, anyways.
Personally I do use MH's Target Camera option, where pressing L1 will move your camera so the target monster is centered. That lets you turn the camera without taking your thumb off the face buttons if, for example, a monster dashes past you with a charging attack. I never use the Focus Camera option though, which *keeps* the monster in the center of your screen, for all the reasons you've outlined.
Yeah I know of quite a few people who use that target camera option - it's a pretty useful feature to have, especially for more agile monsters. I've never felt the need to work it into my muscle memory personally but I can see many compelling reasons to do so
When I saw the title I thought you'd need a lot more time to cover this topic well, but I'm pleasantly surprised at the information flow and pacing of this video. Excellent work. Despite having played none of these games I feel I've been given enough information to understand what is being discussed.
Great video, a video on lock-on systems is something I didnt know I wanted but here I am. I am a bit surprised you didnt mention MH's camera setting where you pick a large monster to target and then press your shoulder button to quickly pan the camera back to them. It still gives a lot of freedom, but allows you to quickly center back when things get a bit hectic. Admittedly, it is pretty easy to ignore especially if you played the older titles that just straight up didn't even have a lock-on to begin with. Great watch nonetheless, subbed.
@@Theottree Yeah, it is very much just a QoL thing. If you're already used to manually adjusting the cam it's nothing life changing. The option where it's like the Dark Souls cam where it's just centered on the monster while you move is much _much_ weirder in the MH context tho lmao (imo at least)
As someone who has encountered my share of difficulties switching targets to my liking in DMC5, found gripes with the auto-target aim assist on more than a few runs in Hades, and simultaneously love the freedom of the camera and am annoyed by the limitations of your overall combat potential in Horizon, each section of this video put me at ease regarding my perspectives on all of them. Like you indicated about Sifu at the end, it's a fluid, evolving process of understanding the mechanics, recognising your frustrations with them, and coming to peace with their implementation. With all my favourite games, despite all my issues with them, I couldn't imagine them with an entirely different system, and doubtless the developers of those games laboured over those same benefits and drawbacks for far longer than we do. Love the video, Theo; it both zooms in and expands on concepts more briefly touched upon in Matthewmatosis' context sensitivity video. Your solo analyses have been a long time coming, and it's exciting to see what other insight you have on games. (Just curious, since I share my love of this game in particular with you, do you think there's any video-worthy elements to dive into in Nioh 2? It'd be great to see some of your feelings on it alongside the other action games you no doubt already intend to give more attention.)
Regarding Nioh 2, it's an easy mention in any context surrounding Souls combat or Soulslike combat and how you can evolve on the formula. Got something cooking in the back of my head between Nioh 2, Elden Ring, Dark Souls 1, and Monster Hunter. Thanks man, appreciate the interest and the writeup
Neat detail in dmc’s lock on is how it tells you the enemies health. Also liked how they incorporated it into Vergil’s concentration meter in 4se standing still would increase while 5 made it on how many hits you landed
I enjoy the way you structure your thoughts. Its good live and even better scripted. Happy that the sub is really paying off. In march ill be done with uni and once the money is coming in, I'll look at that Patreon of yours.
Banger vid. There's something to be said of this in 2D action games as well - you can (generally) map the intent to a direction of a joystick, but in practice for the average player you can run into some trouble without aim assist. But, like you noted, as soon as you introduce aim assist, you run into the issue of misinterpreting player intent and violating their expectations. YT channel t3ssel8r has a really good vid on this. I think, to me, the Devil May Cry lock on system serves two functions: a stance swap and a vessel to control the camera. And I think the frustrations also come from the system needing to really pull double duty. I'd be curious to see a system that somewhat separates the two, but I'm not a good enough game designer yet to really flesh that one out in 3D space. 2D however... Anyway, outstanding video, could tell you put a lot of work into it.
Nice video. decided to squeeze it in at the detriment to my ability to do my job with any amount of efficiency, but it was a good video so it was worth it.
I will say that for the lock-on system like DMC's the option for it to be on a toggle would be much appreciated. For me at least having to hold down an analog stick while trying to commit to other actions and keep battle awareness is very difficult. That and having a defensive option on the trigger are the two deal-breakers for gameplay.
I haven't seen anyone bring this up, but I think the Ninja GAiden games have an interesting targeting system. There is no real 'lock on', but rather Ryu will prioritize enemies based off of proximity and whether they're attacking or not. You can gauge this by how he turns his head to face an enemy. This isn't always intuitive or great, but it's an interesting system.
I loved Sifu so much, I got both Platinums within a month of each other. I think they wanted combat to be more free flow and a lock on imo would get in the way of that feeling.
Great video man. I was thinking about it and some games came to mind for the auto targeting in a really bad way, like the Ninja Gaiden games, they are great but the camera and auto lock on are contantly frustrating, even when you understand what it tries to do. Really it's a commom problem in most action games, thankfully, not a big enough to ruiin most of them
Another really solid video. The editor in me is quite picky about the timing on some of the cuts here and mouth clicks seem to be something you end up dealing with often (but as someone who has had the same issue a lot, trust me, I very much get it) but overall, it's an interesting video to listen to and I say that as someone who doesn't tend to go out of their way to watch this kinda content. I really like how you have such varied examples of different forms of lock-on and how they're executed in context. It shows you've put a lot of nuanced thought into it all and it seems like that's gonna be common in your content. I enjoy your way of structuring your points and it's cool how you're giving these different elements of game design their own videos to explore them thoroughly but also briefly. Good work, I look forward to seeing more :) (also I may check out your patreon if my bank account is willing to forgive me)
Thanks dood, very much appreciate it. Yeah timing on some cuts is a bit off, swear I had them better than that, but y'know how it is sometimes I guess. More importantly, I fucking hate mouth clicks and I have no fucking solution to them that actually goddamn works lmao so I am just trying to train myself to talk properly and/or to just tank hearing them as best I can because I cannot consistently get rid of them and it drives me absolutely crazy. Really appreciate the praise for the analysis; it's a really awesome thing to know that it's compelling to watch even for people not necessarily explicitly interested in this sort of thing. Thank you!
@@Theottree It's all good, those kinds of editing mistakes slip through pretty easily. I get the same issue with the mouth clicks and it pisses me off just as much lmao. I should probably try taking your approach of just living with them a bit more. It's just a matter of getting over that perfectionism. You're welcome, keep up the good work, it's gonna be fun to watch your channel grow :)
I will be honest. I am a pc k&m player. Who hates using the targeting system. I feel I loose to much control of my character by having the lock on. Which I feel it more of a crutch built in for controller players. As controllers do not have good camera movement. Which is the opposite of the mouse. As you said with DMC5 when you lock on and hit the back button. You do not turn around. Instead you start a chain. While I prefer to keep my camera moving around in games like this. You even agree that when you have no lock on. You have 360 movement. Which is why I love more of the Batman Arkham style of flighting. When I can bounce from target to target in just a quick flip of the camera. Allowing me to ramp up many combo hits from just jumping from one enemy to another.
There's also DmC Devil May Cry and Soulstice's way of handling the camera. DMC reboot pulls the camera away and has a soft lock on for the player. But for Soulstice, it has this toggle lock on similar to Dark Souls and Metal Gear Rising's lock on. Due to this, it has inputs where you have to combine inputs (like jump + attack) which is fine but having to press forward forward + attack feels just less responsive for me. Dark Souls combat is pretty shallow but when you have Nioh, it expands your moveset by giving you three stances and three unique inputs (basically guard + any attack button) but the flaws in the combat show when you're fighting multiple enemies since the camera doesn't pull away and becomes a subject for frustration :(((
Yo, some mention of Soulstice! I'm glad to see that game being mentioned. To add though, since an update about four or so months after the game's release, there's now a secondary way of performing the Piercing Lunge (the Stinger move) which is a shoulder button and attack button, though there are options for putting in custom button mapping. The lock-on is also important for the long-range weapon in the Hallowed Huntress (compound bow), as well as the grapple move for the whip of which i've forgotten the name in the moment. If you use the grappling hook input without locking onto an enemy, it doesn't do crud. But *with* the lock-on enabled, it gets REACH. There's also Darksiders' way of locking on, specifically Darksiders 2, which is i believe holding onto a shoulder button which will add in some letterboxing bars and an arrow above the targeted enemy's head. I am no authority on the intended way of playing that game, but i've seen people mention in Turbo Button's video comments that Darksiders 2's best way of using the lock-on, is by kind of weaving in and out of it. Use lock-on to focus on a threat or enemy, then move in that direction, and if you've lost track on an enemy or want to quickly change camera perspective to an enemy in a different direction, activate lock-on for a bit and it's good again. If i remember correctly, that is.
Hi Theo. I enjoyed this video If you are open to some construction criticism, I think you did a good job explaining the mechanics, benefits, and drawbacks of the targeting systems from a technical perspective. Whenever you guest on EFAP, you have this dry wit that I find extremely entertaining. There are sprinkles of it in this video, but I think if you could incorporate more of that dry wit into your analysis it would make it more entertaining. Do you ever listen back to the episodes of EFAP that you guested on?
Hey dood, thanks and glad you enjoyed. I do listen back to EFAPs I've been on sometimes, and it's a strange experience - there's a lot about the cadence of how I speak on EFAP that I find frustrating; poor intonation and a lot of slurred syllables from time to time chief amongst them. I'm glad you enjoy my sense of humour 😅the reason I don't incorporate more humour is I guess because I'm not much of a joke *writer* as such? Most of my humour comes from observation and/or improvisation. I struggle to sit down and write in a joke. I'm certainly not against it and it's not something I'm striving to avoid, I just find it hard hahah Thanks for the feedback, stoked to hear that the analysis was worthwhile.
A small point of contention, the Dark Souls games (or at least 3 and its successors) let you flick the right analog stick in order to switch targets, you don't have to unlock and relock each time.
DMC5 lock on and back forward inputs are sometimes having to be guessed as its relative to the lock on and what you think is back forward is not always the case (cough trick down)
Yeah this can happen, I think the only instances for me are when I'm in the air above an enemy on the ground. Trying to figure out what side of me it is actually on and just flailing in place lmao
I'd love to hear your perspective on Armored Core 6's lock-on system, which has an "automatically target enemies within your FOV" to represent the in-universe computer-assisted targeting system. You can also turn it off and manually aim like a third-person shooter, as the targeting system is intentionally designed to be imperfect at certain ranges.
Your voice is a lot better in this video than the last (It doesn't feel like you're running out of air at the end of your sentence). Once again a very interseting video on games I don't play (except MonHun). One small adendum on MonHun is that in World, the lock on is capable of targeting specific monster parts, though as you said nobody uses it, partially because even when locked on, your character isn't constantly facing the monster making it feel very clunky to use and even if it did, it would probably be to the detriment of the overall feel the game is going for.
On the point about the DMC lock on having behavior that is optimized only for certain styles of play, maybe adding the ability to customize the parameters in the settings would be a good idea. Maybe being able to make the lock on "sticky" (prioritizing requiring the last locked on target) or change how much it focus on projectiles I am not a game designer so I don't know how much of a pain it would be but it's an idea.
I find it amusing that the closest to perfect implementation of a targeting system in a game is Monster Hunter, the game that doesn't have any targeting assistance. Though it makes sense given it's the oldest and most refined out of all the games discussed.
It's a sort of 'yes and no' thing. Monster Hunter just doesn't need or want any assistance in how you target, and so much of the games are built with that in mind.
As a player that is somewhere between casual and hardcore (leaning on casual, tho), the camera in DMC5 is one of the worst things about the game for me, even as I acknowledge your points. A big issue for me, even having played the game beginning to end twice, is how having to hold R1 fucks with my ability to string attacks because a part of my concentration is always on that one button, arguably the most important one, which I really feel it shouldn't be. So many of the buttons need to be used, repeatedly pressed, chained together, or all of it at the same time, that having that one additional button to focus half your attention on really hurts, and you have to because letting it go it is very valuable a lot of the time when you need to reposition or switch targets. It might just be me, but I think lock on being the way it is really affected the learning curve, progression, and intuitiveness of the combat. Having to stop to switch targets manually is also a bitch. Also, having to hold down a single button for long periods of time is just plain uncomfortable.
I can sympathise with a lot of this. The camera is certainly not unproblematic - I think it's generally pretty darn good as stylish action games go, but it's clear that it could stand to improve in a lot of respects. As to holding R1, it's probably simply the time I have invested but it doesn't really cause me any issues. I can't remember the last time it did to be honest hahah Like, I don't think it requires all that much concentration. I know my level of play certainly goes down when I'm holding for Quadruple S, so I can say it for sure eats into a bit of your cognitive budget, but I'd argue it's a fairly small bite by comparison - and one that is quickly adjusted to due to its extreme necessity. It's not gonna be the same for everyone though so idk how much point there really is to me saying this Cheers for the response
maybe in sifu they could outline the enemies or soemthing to make you know which enemy is in the auto lock at the moment , that may help a bit , I think I saw something similar in batman arkham games
Combat in world and rise is consistently slower than it was in 4u and gen so the lock targeting system was far more valuable back then, most monsters would be able to run past you then spin around and hit you again before you were capable of turning the camera manually, I rarely if ever use it in world or rise, but managing it was absolutely a necessity back then if you wanted a clear image of the actions at play, I also find the tap lock far more useful because it instantly centers on the monster then lets me use the camera to watch something else and I definitely prefer it to the dark souls mechanic where it holds a lock onto a specific enemy which is an option in world but just doesn’t fit the game at all
btw the souls game also work better when not locked on in this vid after the 5th tip there are many examples of dodging attacks with just tracking manipulation and rolls direction and also running and strafing (all which is without lock on ) you may see things you have not seen before aside from the parry and jump ua-cam.com/video/fo4dXJmd1cQ/v-deo.html
maybe the true common thread is "having multiple targets to manage" instead of "lock on systems, reading intent, and the lack thereof"? I wonder if there is work that could be done on enemy AI to contrive positioning so that they can get a better prediction on what the player is going for
I think that's a precarious path to take honestly - enemy behaviour in terms of position is, right now at least, fairly intuitive. They crowd around, form circles, etc. and their being close to one another is relevant in games like Devil May Cry and Sifu. Moreover, I think you have to get to a pretty crazy place in terms of how enemies spread out before it deals with the issue of the game trying to pick out a particular foe based on movements of the analog stick. Which then has further implications on all sorts of other things in terms of how combat can be designed. You'd probably have to do a lot of work with the camera too, which then has even more implications. I guess what I'm trying to say is, it seems hard to deal with this matter enemy-side without doing some dramatic overhauling of how these games play. Overhauling that wouldn't necessarily be for the better. At least if I'm understanding you right; could be off-base. Though the inevitable march forward of technology could very easily prove me wrong on this lol, it's an interesting idea.
@@Theottreegood thoughts/response. Off the top of my own head I'm afraid that contriving enemy position too much would narrow the range of possible responses (exactly because of trying to narrow predictions) and therefore limit variety of play and expression. Instead of "I wanted to do this thing, but it did a different thing" it would be "I would have wanted to try this thing, but the situation never shows up". Aside from the "contrived enemy positioning" idea though, I feel like I'm going to end up meditating on "managing multiple targets" for a while longer
9:18 I haven't played DMC, but at a certain point wouldn't you understand the limitations of the lock-on though. Unless there's an inherent random aspect to it, you'll eventually know what it would and won't lock onto. In this manner it's no different from learning how the controls work. 14:11 Give it Option settings? Camera: Target Prioritization: Projectile / Creature
You start to understand the limitations better with time, but the parameters and potential gamestates are of a degree of complexity that still means you never obtain total certainty. Especially with all of the other things you need to focus on doing in any given combat. Yeah options would probably be a good idea - there was some lock-on priority tuning in the options of DMC4SE, so it's somewhat strange to see it absent here. It is worth wondering how effective such tuning could be though. Hard to ballpark without intimate technical knowledge
Another solution would be remove all auto aim and force every player to use gamepads with gyro aim. This way you can have acess to all pad buttons and leave the right joystick force fast turns. The down side would be that you cant play the game on a keyboard or a xbox controler.
I think gyro aim has a lot of potential in that regard, but it'll take a lot of figuring out. The sorts of movement that it would ask for are not ones that may come intuitively to a player, and I can see unintended aiming 'decisions' being made often by players just adjusting where their controller is. Though it must be said I'm not enormously familiar with the technology. And as technology does, it's bound to improve at such a purpose if ever it is used for it.
@@Theottree I disagree. Motion controls are easy to understand, and even cheap 3th party controlers can do a good job at it. Aldo games like Chivalry and WarHamer Darktide can be dificult, because the camera needs to be close to the action limiting your view.
dumb question: how easy would it be to desing multiple sets of lock-on paramterers, and give players the ability to toggle between them? Nothing groundbreaking, or at least I hope its not, just a simple "do you want to lock on to enemy projectiles? Yes/No" setting, which operates the game in its current state on "yes", but when set to "no", it completely skips the parameters teh game uses to guess the best target to lock on to. The projectiles should already exsist as entities in the game's engine, cant they just asign a new variable to them, and give that variable reduced priority when this setting is turned off? Or if going through every entity in the game one by one is too tedious, couldnt they just make it automatic, and make every entity spawned by a certain enemy be tagged with the "projectile" variable?
I don't know for certain, but I don't imagine it would be all that difficult, as DMC4SE had some adjustable lock-on parameters. So their absence here is even more jarring
I would rather avoid putting options like this in settings menus if possible. For DMC5, could be weird, but an option would be to make it so the lock on only marks enemies and have free lock target projectiles as well. Like how in DMC3, it was easier to kill baby spiders with free lock since Dante would target things around him instead of the ones in front of him.
The camera issue with MH is completely resolved if you're playing on Keyboard & Mouse as you can do extremely precise positioning by rotating the camera with the mouse to orient which way your character faces then with WASD you can walk to whatever direction you want. You can use this to sometimes finesse away from a monster attack when you happen to be out of stamina and you don't have time to sheathe your weapon to do a Superman Dive.
Whats your take on hi-fi rush compared to other action games such as dmc5 and sifu? Is it in a similar tier of quality or does it fall a bit lower on your scale
Is it possible to hit more than one enemy in Sifu without bumping them with other enemies? The gameplay reminds me a lot of the Spider-Man games where only the enemy you're locked to reacts to your attacks.
It is, especially with wider reaching attacks like the spinning hook kick. Most of your attacks will be tuned to strike singular targets better, but many of them in clustered environments will strike enemies alongside the chosen target. Big sweeps are also good at this like the reversed sweep and the bat version of charged backfist.
Pretty good video. Sifu seems like a cool game, I'll definitely check it out. One piece of feedback I have is that you mention or compare things to the Souls games several times, but you never discuss them directly. I'm not familiar with your views on them, so the comparison became a bit meaningless to me.
So nobody told this guy PC mod lock on didn't ruin anything for me or anyone else I know who dropped 40 bux on it?? I feel like half the video is based on opinion not facts about lock on. I'm still waiting on the developer to defend why lock on is only inabled for meter moves. Like I actively went looking to see if they said anything.
Haven't played MH, but isn't it basically the same as Dragon's Dogma, which entirely ignores your critique of the system? You fight big fuckers and small swarmers equally often there and I don't ever recall having any issues with it despite the lack of a lock-on for melee.
I haven't yet played Dragon's Dogma so I couldn't say for myself, but it's entirely possible. I do want to be clear that I'm not trying to say that a game with no lockon/targeting whatsoever is only possible against singular larger foes -- just that at certain points it becomes a limiting factor on what you can get away with, design-wise. In either case, I'd need to know a lot more about Dragon's Dogma than I currently do - and know from firsthand experience, at that - before I could make a call on if it renders the point more or less moot. I know I have heard complaining about the camera in the past but it's hard to put too much stock in that either way. Cheers for the response
Yeah I would tend to agree, it would be a huge technological investment in order to account for what is by all rights a small percentage of scenarios in an even smaller percentage of games.
wtf, I thought I watched some 2 years old video of a 500k+ youtuber. For me, I think MH is probably don't even need lock on at all. I always turn off lock on after I found my prey. You don't really need lock on in games where you primary fight a single enemy, or the game is really slow. MH and Souls falls in this category. And I'm (mostly) fine with DMC games. In 1->3->4->5, the game becomes faster with the enemies varieties, so the lock-on becomes a bit more problematic in each game. I have a little problem with the projectile priority, it breaks flows, but it's quick to start a new one. It's a nice tiny break. And when I don't really mind when the game switch to other random enemy when I turn off and on the lock on. I prefer low air and ground combat. When the game switch to other enemy, it offers a new problem for me to deal with. It's like I'm flowing with the game, not in my own flow.
I agree, Monster Hunter just doesn't seem to have any need for such a system. As for DMC, I feel it's worth noting that the sort of issues I'm talking about are actually pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. It's just a bit disorientating sometimes when the lock-on decides it wants to go for some totally random enemy that I don't really have a clean angle on lmao, disrupts my flow a bit. But 90% of the time I'm with you, whoever it picks up I'm down, lets me bounce around fights and freestyle in a way that's really fun and rewarding
Also, there's a minor "problem" that you didn't mention about DMC4&5 lock on. It's you can't target switch while moving. I'm not sure it's a intentional design or not, since it's not a problom in 3. 4 and 5 even has a different engine but it still exist in both game. They probably think it's better for the game to not be able to switch while moving. Which I have two assumption to why. First is they don't want player to accidently switch the target (which it's really hard to do, they have design the game around console as the first priority. And l3 is not a button you'll accidently press). Second is that they think not being able to target switch while moving (which is mostly between the combo) is better for the game. Like, when the game pick the wrong enemy, they want you to go for that enemy.
With monster hunter, they could just speed up your animations a lil and give you real control over attacks, there are so many attacks in monster hunter, where you press Attack, attack, and the game does like 4 hits instead of two, its also just designed poorly
You do realize, with the lock on issue... they could of just made projectiles only able to be locked on to, if you are in the gun stance? A lot of the things you talked about in this video are easily solvable with simple logic, the development team just does not have that logic. Devil may cry has good combat but it was designed very badly, there is not a single problem with devil may cry that could not very easily be fixed with some logic. The biggest problem with devil may cry is that literally have no follow through in 100% of their design. Style is supposed to be for using abilities, but some abilities can be used in any stance, so the average person will be confused, and do what comes easiest, very simple fix, put all the attack abilities into style. If they did this, they could also implements input based combat by making you have to press royale guard and backwards, so then you get put into a stance where your style button is just a second input in a combo string, instead of having a lame auto guard perma animation system. The problem is that they want to make money, and they completely do not care about the game's design. Devil may cry could be star wars, it could be dbz, the potential for the dante mechanics could literally dip into any Genre of game, and any Genre of story, literally all it is, is a blocking system, a mobility system, a ranged weapon system, and an extra attack input system all tied to one button through a simple wheel system that is tied to 4 inputs like opening an inventory. Devil may cry is complex when you try to look at the big picture, but it is very simple when you look at it bit by bit.
This is an interesting premise that I'd usually have no interest in watching, because I'd expect the average channel to have a preamble about targeting systems in games dating back to the Neolithic period, but thankfully Theo is allergic to that shit. So stoked we have videos now
Well, why don't we go back further than that, to the progenitor of targeting systems? That's right, gravity itself. You see-
So stoked to be *making* videos now
@@Theottreewell, you are doing well!
May I ask you why didnt you start making videos sooner?
@@texteel Honestly, a simple matter of confidence from various angles - in my positions, in my abilities at the actual *video making* side of things mainly, and a hefty dose of overambition that kept me from actually making anything at all.
@@Theottreethat is something I understand and can sympathise with. When you have high standards on how you believe thigns should be done, not sure how to achieve them, but because you cant compromise your own standards, you are almost paralyzed.
Once again, you are doing good. You are achieving what you want to.
"Targeting systems are distasteful... To me... But they're also the only thing that brings me joy in life."
-JigsawBaggins2988
Theo’s just spoiling us now. Two vids in this short amount of time?!
I see that art! I know that Art! That be Emo's art! Hype Hype!
*"I love targeting people..."*
―Bilbo Baggins
This is definitely the most interesting video essay that's every sprung from someone getting annoyed over a game's camera
Daredevil sifu mod is peak
I am honestly very and I mean VERY impressed. Not only is the strong argumentation and snappy editing still here as in your previous video (not that I would expect anything else), but your delivery and the small editing touches (like switching music up) really put this video on a whole new level. The video seems bit calmer and bit more focussed now (haha focus you get it, ok that was bad joke) than your previous work. It honestly reminds me a bit of Matthewmatosis's style of videos.
I very much enjoy these videos and hope to see more in the future.
This means a hell of a lot, thank you. Hope to keep improving going forward, maybe I can reach Matt's level 😏
Very well made video. Most people don't end up actually thinking about targeting systems and just say X game would be better if you slapped in Y's targeting system without thinking of how it would fundamentally change the game.
The only thing I'd want to add is that multi monster fights in MH do work in arenas where there's enough room given so it's not sliding hitboxes grinding together until one flings itself out of the mess and into you.
Yeah I agree, think you can probably do something in the way of monster AI to make multi-monster fights much more broadly tolerable, but before that point, space so you can actually see is a decent substitute
@@Theottreeoh for sure, actually having enough space for the 2 monsters goes a very long way towards having it not be awful to engage with. Small arenas on the maps, or even worse, pathways between them, always cause issues
Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate had an extremely useful lock-on system that simply turned your camera to the monster.
Monster Hunter Rise has it too
That's actually an exciting topic
Our boy Theo's on a roll!
This is matthewmatosis level analysis that UA-cam has been seriously missing! Great job!
Jesus Christ Theo...How about slowing down this conweyor belt of content, a lot of us have been subbed for years and this sudden Tsunami of quality videos is....well kinda scary.
Never really thought about monster hunter's controls in the way you presented here. Makes a lot of sense!
Very well structured video. Didn't have prior experience with the games showcased (bad rhino, I know) and I could still follow from start to finish.
Keep at it Theo, this rat is gud
Love both videos! Even though I am not really experienced with spectacle fighter games (the closest I think I've played is the Senran Kagura series LUL), the videos are extremely easy to understand while still going into relative depth about each topic. Seriously Theo, you should be proud of these videos. :)
Thanks dude, I really appreciate it
It's very lucrative to have a silver bullet or a cure-all for topics like these. It's nice to see an insightful view that doesn't feel pressured to be absolute or grandiosely thematic. That's what I've always enjoyed about your viewpoints, anyways.
Personally I do use MH's Target Camera option, where pressing L1 will move your camera so the target monster is centered. That lets you turn the camera without taking your thumb off the face buttons if, for example, a monster dashes past you with a charging attack. I never use the Focus Camera option though, which *keeps* the monster in the center of your screen, for all the reasons you've outlined.
Yeah I know of quite a few people who use that target camera option - it's a pretty useful feature to have, especially for more agile monsters. I've never felt the need to work it into my muscle memory personally but I can see many compelling reasons to do so
Well well. Looks like somebody is on a roll. I'll gladly tune in
yoo i just bought sifu. it’s kicking my ass. we’ll done with the vids bro keep it up!
When I saw the title I thought you'd need a lot more time to cover this topic well, but I'm pleasantly surprised at the information flow and pacing of this video. Excellent work. Despite having played none of these games I feel I've been given enough information to understand what is being discussed.
Excelent choice with the Monster hunter music. Rotten valley and mizutsune theme? *Chef's kiss *
Great video, a video on lock-on systems is something I didnt know I wanted but here I am. I am a bit surprised you didnt mention MH's camera setting where you pick a large monster to target and then press your shoulder button to quickly pan the camera back to them. It still gives a lot of freedom, but allows you to quickly center back when things get a bit hectic. Admittedly, it is pretty easy to ignore especially if you played the older titles that just straight up didn't even have a lock-on to begin with. Great watch nonetheless, subbed.
Thanks dude, glad you enjoyed it
@@Theottree Yeah, it is very much just a QoL thing. If you're already used to manually adjusting the cam it's nothing life changing. The option where it's like the Dark Souls cam where it's just centered on the monster while you move is much _much_ weirder in the MH context tho lmao (imo at least)
As someone who has encountered my share of difficulties switching targets to my liking in DMC5, found gripes with the auto-target aim assist on more than a few runs in Hades, and simultaneously love the freedom of the camera and am annoyed by the limitations of your overall combat potential in Horizon, each section of this video put me at ease regarding my perspectives on all of them. Like you indicated about Sifu at the end, it's a fluid, evolving process of understanding the mechanics, recognising your frustrations with them, and coming to peace with their implementation. With all my favourite games, despite all my issues with them, I couldn't imagine them with an entirely different system, and doubtless the developers of those games laboured over those same benefits and drawbacks for far longer than we do.
Love the video, Theo; it both zooms in and expands on concepts more briefly touched upon in Matthewmatosis' context sensitivity video. Your solo analyses have been a long time coming, and it's exciting to see what other insight you have on games.
(Just curious, since I share my love of this game in particular with you, do you think there's any video-worthy elements to dive into in Nioh 2? It'd be great to see some of your feelings on it alongside the other action games you no doubt already intend to give more attention.)
Regarding Nioh 2, it's an easy mention in any context surrounding Souls combat or Soulslike combat and how you can evolve on the formula. Got something cooking in the back of my head between Nioh 2, Elden Ring, Dark Souls 1, and Monster Hunter.
Thanks man, appreciate the interest and the writeup
Neat detail in dmc’s lock on is how it tells you the enemies health. Also liked how they incorporated it into Vergil’s concentration meter in 4se standing still would increase while 5 made it on how many hits you landed
I enjoy the way you structure your thoughts. Its good live and even better scripted. Happy that the sub is really paying off. In march ill be done with uni and once the money is coming in, I'll look at that Patreon of yours.
Banger vid. There's something to be said of this in 2D action games as well - you can (generally) map the intent to a direction of a joystick, but in practice for the average player you can run into some trouble without aim assist. But, like you noted, as soon as you introduce aim assist, you run into the issue of misinterpreting player intent and violating their expectations. YT channel
t3ssel8r has a really good vid on this.
I think, to me, the Devil May Cry lock on system serves two functions: a stance swap and a vessel to control the camera. And I think the frustrations also come from the system needing to really pull double duty. I'd be curious to see a system that somewhat separates the two, but I'm not a good enough game designer yet to really flesh that one out in 3D space. 2D however...
Anyway, outstanding video, could tell you put a lot of work into it.
Really good! Looking forward to more micro analysis of action games.
Glad you enjoyed, more to come :)
Your writing and analysis are really good, this is a great video
Thank you
Nice video. decided to squeeze it in at the detriment to my ability to do my job with any amount of efficiency, but it was a good video so it was worth it.
I will say that for the lock-on system like DMC's the option for it to be on a toggle would be much appreciated. For me at least having to hold down an analog stick while trying to commit to other actions and keep battle awareness is very difficult. That and having a defensive option on the trigger are the two deal-breakers for gameplay.
Eye tracking would be the best lock-on system ever. You hold a button and while the button is pressed, the game locks on to whatever you're looking.
I haven't seen anyone bring this up, but I think the Ninja GAiden games have an interesting targeting system.
There is no real 'lock on', but rather Ryu will prioritize enemies based off of proximity and whether they're attacking or not. You can gauge this by how he turns his head to face an enemy. This isn't always intuitive or great, but it's an interesting system.
No video for years and now two within a month? Amazing!
I did not finish the vid yet but really we need more videos about action games mechanics
good job
I loved Sifu so much, I got both Platinums within a month of each other.
I think they wanted combat to be more free flow and a lock on imo would get in the way of that feeling.
locking on is the secret to dante's jump combos
As a person with no deep interest in anything or passion for anything (unfortunately) I love listening to people who are passionate about things.
i have been waiting years for this channel and I am so happy that my faith has been rewarded
Great video man. I was thinking about it and some games came to mind for the auto targeting in a really bad way, like the Ninja Gaiden games, they are great but the camera and auto lock on are contantly frustrating, even when you understand what it tries to do. Really it's a commom problem in most action games, thankfully, not a big enough to ruiin most of them
Waait wait I had subscribed a long time ago but missed that Theo made his first video a month ago? I've got to catch up before this one comes out
As someone who hasn't played Sifu, the moment at 15:29 made me spit out my drink🤣
This will certainly do for 2 or 3 breakfasts, thanks Theo o7
Jokes aside, I'm glad you're finding your footing on youtube. You clearly have a lot to say and a good way of saying it, I'm excited for more!
Thanks man, greatly appreciated
Very dense with important information, nice! Can’t wait to see more!
All I want from Theo is a Long Man picking The Clone Wars and Rebels. Maybe a Christmas present in future years
Another really solid video. The editor in me is quite picky about the timing on some of the cuts here and mouth clicks seem to be something you end up dealing with often (but as someone who has had the same issue a lot, trust me, I very much get it) but overall, it's an interesting video to listen to and I say that as someone who doesn't tend to go out of their way to watch this kinda content. I really like how you have such varied examples of different forms of lock-on and how they're executed in context. It shows you've put a lot of nuanced thought into it all and it seems like that's gonna be common in your content. I enjoy your way of structuring your points and it's cool how you're giving these different elements of game design their own videos to explore them thoroughly but also briefly. Good work, I look forward to seeing more :) (also I may check out your patreon if my bank account is willing to forgive me)
Thanks dood, very much appreciate it.
Yeah timing on some cuts is a bit off, swear I had them better than that, but y'know how it is sometimes I guess. More importantly, I fucking hate mouth clicks and I have no fucking solution to them that actually goddamn works lmao so I am just trying to train myself to talk properly and/or to just tank hearing them as best I can because I cannot consistently get rid of them and it drives me absolutely crazy.
Really appreciate the praise for the analysis; it's a really awesome thing to know that it's compelling to watch even for people not necessarily explicitly interested in this sort of thing. Thank you!
@@Theottree It's all good, those kinds of editing mistakes slip through pretty easily. I get the same issue with the mouth clicks and it pisses me off just as much lmao. I should probably try taking your approach of just living with them a bit more. It's just a matter of getting over that perfectionism.
You're welcome, keep up the good work, it's gonna be fun to watch your channel grow :)
I will be honest. I am a pc k&m player. Who hates using the targeting system. I feel I loose to much control of my character by having the lock on. Which I feel it more of a crutch built in for controller players. As controllers do not have good camera movement. Which is the opposite of the mouse.
As you said with DMC5 when you lock on and hit the back button. You do not turn around. Instead you start a chain. While I prefer to keep my camera moving around in games like this. You even agree that when you have no lock on. You have 360 movement. Which is why I love more of the Batman Arkham style of flighting. When I can bounce from target to target in just a quick flip of the camera. Allowing me to ramp up many combo hits from just jumping from one enemy to another.
There's also DmC Devil May Cry and Soulstice's way of handling the camera.
DMC reboot pulls the camera away and has a soft lock on for the player. But for Soulstice, it has this toggle lock on similar to Dark Souls and Metal Gear Rising's lock on. Due to this, it has inputs where you have to combine inputs (like jump + attack) which is fine but having to press forward forward + attack feels just less responsive for me.
Dark Souls combat is pretty shallow but when you have Nioh, it expands your moveset by giving you three stances and three unique inputs (basically guard + any attack button) but the flaws in the combat show when you're fighting multiple enemies since the camera doesn't pull away and becomes a subject for frustration :(((
Yo, some mention of Soulstice! I'm glad to see that game being mentioned. To add though, since an update about four or so months after the game's release, there's now a secondary way of performing the Piercing Lunge (the Stinger move) which is a shoulder button and attack button, though there are options for putting in custom button mapping.
The lock-on is also important for the long-range weapon in the Hallowed Huntress (compound bow), as well as the grapple move for the whip of which i've forgotten the name in the moment. If you use the grappling hook input without locking onto an enemy, it doesn't do crud. But *with* the lock-on enabled, it gets REACH.
There's also Darksiders' way of locking on, specifically Darksiders 2, which is i believe holding onto a shoulder button which will add in some letterboxing bars and an arrow above the targeted enemy's head. I am no authority on the intended way of playing that game, but i've seen people mention in Turbo Button's video comments that Darksiders 2's best way of using the lock-on, is by kind of weaving in and out of it. Use lock-on to focus on a threat or enemy, then move in that direction, and if you've lost track on an enemy or want to quickly change camera perspective to an enemy in a different direction, activate lock-on for a bit and it's good again.
If i remember correctly, that is.
More Theo! I must have more!
Hi Theo. I enjoyed this video
If you are open to some construction criticism, I think you did a good job explaining the mechanics, benefits, and drawbacks of the targeting systems from a technical perspective.
Whenever you guest on EFAP, you have this dry wit that I find extremely entertaining. There are sprinkles of it in this video, but I think if you could incorporate more of that dry wit into your analysis it would make it more entertaining.
Do you ever listen back to the episodes of EFAP that you guested on?
Hey dood, thanks and glad you enjoyed.
I do listen back to EFAPs I've been on sometimes, and it's a strange experience - there's a lot about the cadence of how I speak on EFAP that I find frustrating; poor intonation and a lot of slurred syllables from time to time chief amongst them.
I'm glad you enjoy my sense of humour 😅the reason I don't incorporate more humour is I guess because I'm not much of a joke *writer* as such? Most of my humour comes from observation and/or improvisation. I struggle to sit down and write in a joke. I'm certainly not against it and it's not something I'm striving to avoid, I just find it hard hahah
Thanks for the feedback, stoked to hear that the analysis was worthwhile.
A small point of contention, the Dark Souls games (or at least 3 and its successors) let you flick the right analog stick in order to switch targets, you don't have to unlock and relock each time.
Very interesting... i didnt though that Sifu had a lack of a Lock On for a good reason, seems like i still have a lot to learn about that game.
DMC5 lock on and back forward inputs are sometimes having to be guessed as its relative to the lock on and what you think is back forward is not always the case (cough trick down)
Yeah this can happen, I think the only instances for me are when I'm in the air above an enemy on the ground. Trying to figure out what side of me it is actually on and just flailing in place lmao
Funny. Subscribing god knows how long ago is finally paying off.
I'd love to hear your perspective on Armored Core 6's lock-on system, which has an "automatically target enemies within your FOV" to represent the in-universe computer-assisted targeting system. You can also turn it off and manually aim like a third-person shooter, as the targeting system is intentionally designed to be imperfect at certain ranges.
Yeah I've heard that it's pretty interesting from friends as I was making this video, interested to give it a go
Your voice is a lot better in this video than the last (It doesn't feel like you're running out of air at the end of your sentence). Once again a very interseting video on games I don't play (except MonHun). One small adendum on MonHun is that in World, the lock on is capable of targeting specific monster parts, though as you said nobody uses it, partially because even when locked on, your character isn't constantly facing the monster making it feel very clunky to use and even if it did, it would probably be to the detriment of the overall feel the game is going for.
Wait a second...This isn't Mauler's Sekiro stream.
On the point about the DMC lock on having behavior that is optimized only for certain styles of play, maybe adding the ability to customize the parameters in the settings would be a good idea. Maybe being able to make the lock on "sticky" (prioritizing requiring the last locked on target) or change how much it focus on projectiles I am not a game designer so I don't know how much of a pain it would be but it's an idea.
Still waiting on my “understanding why it is the way it is” stage for Bayo 3’s lock on…oh well
Some day I'll play Bayo 3 and understand the cataclysmic reception it got... and that day will be when it comes to PC. 😔
I find it amusing that the closest to perfect implementation of a targeting system in a game is Monster Hunter, the game that doesn't have any targeting assistance. Though it makes sense given it's the oldest and most refined out of all the games discussed.
It's a sort of 'yes and no' thing. Monster Hunter just doesn't need or want any assistance in how you target, and so much of the games are built with that in mind.
As a player that is somewhere between casual and hardcore (leaning on casual, tho), the camera in DMC5 is one of the worst things about the game for me, even as I acknowledge your points.
A big issue for me, even having played the game beginning to end twice, is how having to hold R1 fucks with my ability to string attacks because a part of my concentration is always on that one button, arguably the most important one, which I really feel it shouldn't be. So many of the buttons need to be used, repeatedly pressed, chained together, or all of it at the same time, that having that one additional button to focus half your attention on really hurts, and you have to because letting it go it is very valuable a lot of the time when you need to reposition or switch targets. It might just be me, but I think lock on being the way it is really affected the learning curve, progression, and intuitiveness of the combat.
Having to stop to switch targets manually is also a bitch. Also, having to hold down a single button for long periods of time is just plain uncomfortable.
I can sympathise with a lot of this. The camera is certainly not unproblematic - I think it's generally pretty darn good as stylish action games go, but it's clear that it could stand to improve in a lot of respects.
As to holding R1, it's probably simply the time I have invested but it doesn't really cause me any issues. I can't remember the last time it did to be honest hahah
Like, I don't think it requires all that much concentration. I know my level of play certainly goes down when I'm holding for Quadruple S, so I can say it for sure eats into a bit of your cognitive budget, but I'd argue it's a fairly small bite by comparison - and one that is quickly adjusted to due to its extreme necessity. It's not gonna be the same for everyone though so idk how much point there really is to me saying this
Cheers for the response
maybe in sifu they could outline the enemies or soemthing to make you know which enemy is in the auto lock at the moment , that may help a bit , I think I saw something similar in batman arkham games
Combat in world and rise is consistently slower than it was in 4u and gen so the lock targeting system was far more valuable back then, most monsters would be able to run past you then spin around and hit you again before you were capable of turning the camera manually, I rarely if ever use it in world or rise, but managing it was absolutely a necessity back then if you wanted a clear image of the actions at play, I also find the tap lock far more useful because it instantly centers on the monster then lets me use the camera to watch something else and I definitely prefer it to the dark souls mechanic where it holds a lock onto a specific enemy which is an option in world but just doesn’t fit the game at all
btw the souls game also work better when not locked on
in this vid after the 5th tip there are many examples of dodging attacks with just tracking manipulation and rolls direction and also running and strafing (all which is without lock on ) you may see things you have not seen before aside from the parry and jump
ua-cam.com/video/fo4dXJmd1cQ/v-deo.html
maybe the true common thread is "having multiple targets to manage" instead of "lock on systems, reading intent, and the lack thereof"?
I wonder if there is work that could be done on enemy AI to contrive positioning so that they can get a better prediction on what the player is going for
I think that's a precarious path to take honestly - enemy behaviour in terms of position is, right now at least, fairly intuitive. They crowd around, form circles, etc. and their being close to one another is relevant in games like Devil May Cry and Sifu.
Moreover, I think you have to get to a pretty crazy place in terms of how enemies spread out before it deals with the issue of the game trying to pick out a particular foe based on movements of the analog stick. Which then has further implications on all sorts of other things in terms of how combat can be designed. You'd probably have to do a lot of work with the camera too, which then has even more implications.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, it seems hard to deal with this matter enemy-side without doing some dramatic overhauling of how these games play. Overhauling that wouldn't necessarily be for the better. At least if I'm understanding you right; could be off-base. Though the inevitable march forward of technology could very easily prove me wrong on this lol, it's an interesting idea.
@@Theottreegood thoughts/response. Off the top of my own head I'm afraid that contriving enemy position too much would narrow the range of possible responses (exactly because of trying to narrow predictions) and therefore limit variety of play and expression. Instead of "I wanted to do this thing, but it did a different thing" it would be "I would have wanted to try this thing, but the situation never shows up".
Aside from the "contrived enemy positioning" idea though, I feel like I'm going to end up meditating on "managing multiple targets" for a while longer
I'm disappointed you didn't start the video with your life story, of how you were a wee lad of 9 years of age when the first Devil May Cry came out.
Theo this is you’re second video and still no mention of Lewis or pointless personal preamble. How am I supposed to know you’re human?
Who is to say I am?
9:18 I haven't played DMC, but at a certain point wouldn't you understand the limitations of the lock-on though. Unless there's an inherent random aspect to it, you'll eventually know what it would and won't lock onto. In this manner it's no different from learning how the controls work.
14:11 Give it Option settings? Camera: Target Prioritization: Projectile / Creature
You start to understand the limitations better with time, but the parameters and potential gamestates are of a degree of complexity that still means you never obtain total certainty. Especially with all of the other things you need to focus on doing in any given combat.
Yeah options would probably be a good idea - there was some lock-on priority tuning in the options of DMC4SE, so it's somewhat strange to see it absent here. It is worth wondering how effective such tuning could be though. Hard to ballpark without intimate technical knowledge
Another solution would be remove all auto aim and force every player to use gamepads with gyro aim. This way you can have acess to all pad buttons and leave the right joystick force fast turns. The down side would be that you cant play the game on a keyboard or a xbox controler.
I think gyro aim has a lot of potential in that regard, but it'll take a lot of figuring out. The sorts of movement that it would ask for are not ones that may come intuitively to a player, and I can see unintended aiming 'decisions' being made often by players just adjusting where their controller is.
Though it must be said I'm not enormously familiar with the technology. And as technology does, it's bound to improve at such a purpose if ever it is used for it.
@@Theottree I disagree. Motion controls are easy to understand, and even cheap 3th party controlers can do a good job at it. Aldo games like Chivalry and WarHamer Darktide can be dificult, because the camera needs to be close to the action limiting your view.
Good video, though it’d be better if it had a 30 minute meandering ramble about your childhood before you actually talk about the game
Can't wait for this topic to return when you start talking about the camera in elden ring lol
But Theo! You didn’t tell us a 20 minute backstory about your childhood trauma! (Kappa)
great vid
dumb question:
how easy would it be to desing multiple sets of lock-on paramterers, and give players the ability to toggle between them? Nothing groundbreaking, or at least I hope its not, just a simple "do you want to lock on to enemy projectiles? Yes/No" setting, which operates the game in its current state on "yes", but when set to "no", it completely skips the parameters teh game uses to guess the best target to lock on to. The projectiles should already exsist as entities in the game's engine, cant they just asign a new variable to them, and give that variable reduced priority when this setting is turned off? Or if going through every entity in the game one by one is too tedious, couldnt they just make it automatic, and make every entity spawned by a certain enemy be tagged with the "projectile" variable?
I don't know for certain, but I don't imagine it would be all that difficult, as DMC4SE had some adjustable lock-on parameters. So their absence here is even more jarring
I would rather avoid putting options like this in settings menus if possible. For DMC5, could be weird, but an option would be to make it so the lock on only marks enemies and have free lock target projectiles as well. Like how in DMC3, it was easier to kill baby spiders with free lock since Dante would target things around him instead of the ones in front of him.
Customizable lock on weights? So you can set what you want to lock on depending on play style or character abilities.
Monster Hunter does have a lock-on
The camera issue with MH is completely resolved if you're playing on Keyboard & Mouse as you can do extremely precise positioning by rotating the camera with the mouse to orient which way your character faces then with WASD you can walk to whatever direction you want. You can use this to sometimes finesse away from a monster attack when you happen to be out of stamina and you don't have time to sheathe your weapon to do a Superman Dive.
Whats your take on hi-fi rush compared to other action games such as dmc5 and sifu? Is it in a similar tier of quality or does it fall a bit lower on your scale
Is it possible to hit more than one enemy in Sifu without bumping them with other enemies? The gameplay reminds me a lot of the Spider-Man games where only the enemy you're locked to reacts to your attacks.
It is, especially with wider reaching attacks like the spinning hook kick. Most of your attacks will be tuned to strike singular targets better, but many of them in clustered environments will strike enemies alongside the chosen target. Big sweeps are also good at this like the reversed sweep and the bat version of charged backfist.
Have you played Dragon's Dogma that game also has an interesting system.
Another commenter mentioned Dragon's Dogma. Have not yet got to it myself - but I'm interested
Pretty good video. Sifu seems like a cool game, I'll definitely check it out. One piece of feedback I have is that you mention or compare things to the Souls games several times, but you never discuss them directly. I'm not familiar with your views on them, so the comparison became a bit meaningless to me.
I wonder if anyone actually plays with the lock-on system in Monster Hunter.
It makes me so disoriented, ironically.
So nobody told this guy PC mod lock on didn't ruin anything for me or anyone else I know who dropped 40 bux on it??
I feel like half the video is based on opinion not facts about lock on.
I'm still waiting on the developer to defend why lock on is only inabled for meter moves.
Like I actively went looking to see if they said anything.
Thumbnail character?
Hitagi Senjougahara, same as my pfp. Dressed as the protagonist of Sifu
@@Theottree Thank you!!
Haven't played MH, but isn't it basically the same as Dragon's Dogma, which entirely ignores your critique of the system? You fight big fuckers and small swarmers equally often there and I don't ever recall having any issues with it despite the lack of a lock-on for melee.
I haven't yet played Dragon's Dogma so I couldn't say for myself, but it's entirely possible.
I do want to be clear that I'm not trying to say that a game with no lockon/targeting whatsoever is only possible against singular larger foes -- just that at certain points it becomes a limiting factor on what you can get away with, design-wise.
In either case, I'd need to know a lot more about Dragon's Dogma than I currently do - and know from firsthand experience, at that - before I could make a call on if it renders the point more or less moot. I know I have heard complaining about the camera in the past but it's hard to put too much stock in that either way. Cheers for the response
try out god hand (ps2)
I doubt there would be a predictability AI improvement seems like a very expensive change with little value, it's a very low priority target.
Yeah I would tend to agree, it would be a huge technological investment in order to account for what is by all rights a small percentage of scenarios in an even smaller percentage of games.
Can you please make a video on why God of War 2018 and 2022 combat is bad? Because you’re actually insightful and just don’t say press x to win game.
Would suggest Matthewmatosis' God of War 2018 video - a lot of my thoughts and feelings are reflected there, and it's a real neat vid.
wtf, I thought I watched some 2 years old video of a 500k+ youtuber. For me, I think MH is probably don't even need lock on at all. I always turn off lock on after I found my prey. You don't really need lock on in games where you primary fight a single enemy, or the game is really slow. MH and Souls falls in this category.
And I'm (mostly) fine with DMC games. In 1->3->4->5, the game becomes faster with the enemies varieties, so the lock-on becomes a bit more problematic in each game. I have a little problem with the projectile priority, it breaks flows, but it's quick to start a new one. It's a nice tiny break. And when I don't really mind when the game switch to other random enemy when I turn off and on the lock on. I prefer low air and ground combat. When the game switch to other enemy, it offers a new problem for me to deal with. It's like I'm flowing with the game, not in my own flow.
I agree, Monster Hunter just doesn't seem to have any need for such a system.
As for DMC, I feel it's worth noting that the sort of issues I'm talking about are actually pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. It's just a bit disorientating sometimes when the lock-on decides it wants to go for some totally random enemy that I don't really have a clean angle on lmao, disrupts my flow a bit. But 90% of the time I'm with you, whoever it picks up I'm down, lets me bounce around fights and freestyle in a way that's really fun and rewarding
Also, there's a minor "problem" that you didn't mention about DMC4&5 lock on. It's you can't target switch while moving.
I'm not sure it's a intentional design or not, since it's not a problom in 3. 4 and 5 even has a different engine but it still exist in both game.
They probably think it's better for the game to not be able to switch while moving. Which I have two assumption to why. First is they don't want player to accidently switch the target (which it's really hard to do, they have design the game around console as the first priority. And l3 is not a button you'll accidently press). Second is that they think not being able to target switch while moving (which is mostly between the combo) is better for the game. Like, when the game pick the wrong enemy, they want you to go for that enemy.
if there isn't at least 1 snide remark about dark souls's shitty lock on system then I'm putting a dislike
Which has now bled into other character-action games, sadly. RIP Astral Chain.
With monster hunter, they could just speed up your animations a lil and give you real control over attacks, there are so many attacks in monster hunter, where you press Attack, attack, and the game does like 4 hits instead of two, its also just designed poorly
Do better game devs
You do realize, with the lock on issue... they could of just made projectiles only able to be locked on to, if you are in the gun stance? A lot of the things you talked about in this video are easily solvable with simple logic, the development team just does not have that logic. Devil may cry has good combat but it was designed very badly, there is not a single problem with devil may cry that could not very easily be fixed with some logic. The biggest problem with devil may cry is that literally have no follow through in 100% of their design. Style is supposed to be for using abilities, but some abilities can be used in any stance, so the average person will be confused, and do what comes easiest, very simple fix, put all the attack abilities into style. If they did this, they could also implements input based combat by making you have to press royale guard and backwards, so then you get put into a stance where your style button is just a second input in a combo string, instead of having a lame auto guard perma animation system. The problem is that they want to make money, and they completely do not care about the game's design.
Devil may cry could be star wars, it could be dbz, the potential for the dante mechanics could literally dip into any Genre of game, and any Genre of story, literally all it is, is a blocking system, a mobility system, a ranged weapon system, and an extra attack input system all tied to one button through a simple wheel system that is tied to 4 inputs like opening an inventory. Devil may cry is complex when you try to look at the big picture, but it is very simple when you look at it bit by bit.