There are a lot out their waiting to rip the consumers off. In my case a 10 year old three bed semi with an EPC of A. Three companies gave me a ball park figure of £1500 to £2000 to install a heatpump all three wanted around £250 for a survey before committing to a price and one of the company’s wasn’t even going to change the cylinder instead fitting a water to water external heat exchanger, all were Heat Geek engineers. In the end Octopus installed a Daikin heatpump for £8600 less the grant of £7500 and it’s working great. As for their high temp heatpump if it helps people change without costing the earth then why not? As one only needs it to run at those temperatures when is really cold outside or as in a lot of case of people are at work just need a quick boost in the evening. Don’t shoot Octopus until you’ve tested the goods. A retired heating Engineer of 50 year experience
The thing that is potentially unique to the octopus offer is that they can integrate it with power market signals much better that what manufacturers our third party installers can, potentially saving users significant money in the process.
My Mixergy HWC will integrate to Octopus Agile tariffs (which I'm not yet on), and just in past couple of days the App' upgraded to offer 'Heat Geek' mode which allows any HWC temperature to be selected, although there is a disclaimer regarding 'Legionella Cycle', which is fair enough. In saying that my HP doesn't as yet, but it's just an App update, or perhaps firmware on HP controller.
"In saying that my HP doesn't as yet, but it's just an App update, or perhaps firmware on HP controller." If I moved to agile then in the seasons when compressor constantly running I'd set schedule to lowest requirement (soft off) during premium times, thermal mass would hold temperature steady for a few hours, sorted :-) That's 'Plan A'.
I use Home assistant to do something similar. I have integrations for Daikin, Octopus, and my battery storage. I have automations that can take advantage of pricing indicators from the Octopus integration to control other devices. This works for me as I like the extra control but I can definitely see the advantages/attraction of it being built in.
You see this with a lot of “new” tech. Adoption is slow because people do not understand how it works and therefore have irrational worries. If all it takes is to call it a high temp heat pump, which is not a lie, than that’s absolutely amazing both for consumers and the business. Also, high temp pumps can have interesting applications such as use in thermal energy storage to make use of dynamic electricity prices.
I appreciate your commitment to truth over other priorities, good for you. Also, once again great information, sensible practical ideas from you, not conforming to other ‘narratives’. Cheers
@@Alan-vg6ew all smart tariffs are currently profitable for the energy companies. Some of them make economic sense due to the incredibly lucrative DFS market. 👍 I don't see a time that smart tariffs will disappear, I would guess the exact opposite.
I have a 20 year old oil boiler and I’m pretty sure it’s about to calf. Currently spend about 1200 PA on kerosene. I was under the impression I have to upgrade all the house rads and plumbing for a conversion to heat pump. Is it possible to upgrade to a heat pump keeping existing infrastructure ?
So many variables that it's impossible to say without a full assessment. Most homes just need a few cheap and easy rad upgrades. Very few need any pipework upgrades.
Radiators in older homes tend to be oversized already especially if you have added double glazing, cavity wall insulation or the recommend depth of loft insulation since the heating system was installed. Always, always insulate first. Heating systems need to be sized and commissioned according to the heat loss of the property to run efficiently whether it's a heat pump or gas boiler. With gas boilers quite often the installers will just sling it in with no consideration to heat loss and leave the flow temp way too high with unbalanced rads and just control room temps with TRV's rather than correctly sizing radiators and balancing the system.
Greg's main promise of the R290 Cosy6 is that it can run with a standard "gas /1m2 coil " hot water tank . & for the 8 million of us with those tanks we can save £2k on the install. ( yes we will have low COP for HW but how low?). If true it will be a benefit. Regarding heating flow temperature in the 55c 40c range it is suggested 5c drop in 'coldest day design flow temperature' causes a 8% saving in Kwh electricity/year & this will be the same with high temp heat pumps . Do you think that 8% is about right ?
You will lose somewhere in the region of 20-30% efficiency by using a regular cylinder over a large coil HP cylinder. This could reduce a system with a DHW COP of 3.0, down to 2.1 as a worst case kind of scenario for example. The 8% saving for space heating is about right. If you take the 5kW Vaillant unit for example and plugged it into an existing system at a flow temp of 55 degrees which most would run at out of the box. You should expect a COP of 3. If you then upgrade a few rads and lower the design temp to 45 degrees, you should achieve a COP of 4. That could be a difference of £200-£300 saved per year depending on the heat loss of the house. Rad upgrades are cheap and in most cases, easy. If these upgrades are done during a HP installation, then they are VAT free and in some cases partially covered by the BUS grant.
Ive got a new build that was build 2 years ago that came with gas central heating and it does appeal in not having to change the radiators since theres about 14 of them. My issue is the house is too hot most of the time and if there was some heat pump product you could also connect to an air conditioning multi split system that would be ideal.
@@nick255 Most HP's by design are air conditioning units, as example my Daikin EDLA06 is the 'heat only model', whereas the EBLA06 has heating and cooling functionality, thanks to a valve that can 'reverse flow' and pump heat from inside to outside. Potential issues then with condensation if using wet systems, unless used with designed emitters with condensation traps. But grant doesn't cover that, my theory being that government don't want to create huge demand on grid over summer, causing power rationing calls or outages as they have in California.
Mine runs fine on a standard tank although it is only 5 years old so maybe not to scaled up. Never a bad investment a new tank better could and better insulation than old ones
The bit of information most people leave out with R290 heat pumps is that there is more regulation regarding the position of heat pump. This means some properties will not have a suitable location and some will not have a suitable location that the customer will be happy with.
I did my FGAS qualification so that I could buy and install an air-to-air heat pump. I think that is UK tradition to keep to our wet radiators, we should be plumbing in refrigerant pipework like the continentals. Also, completely agree that is a marketing excersise to push radiant electric heaters, I keep telling people I work with, it is impossible to improve on the efficiency of resistance heating. But they'd rather listen to the ad-men..
@UpsideDownFork BUS grant should apply to A2A really, it's more efficient than A2W as it uses much lower temps, can cool as well, and can much better heat or cool a single room at a time. I've just fitted two 9kW external Daikin units running 4 indoor units each. Love it so far. Currently still using the gas boiler for hot water, but looking at some heat pump method for that.
@@richardskinner6391 I agree with the benefits you mention, apart from the efficiency claims. Extremely difficult to measure that and the people who have attempted, seem to only achieve a COP of around 3. More than offset by the overall lower running costs due to zoning and intermittent heating being possible.
@@richardskinner6391 It's a myth (or just general misunderstanding) that A2A use much lower temps. Use an IR Thermometer pointed at the internal HX of one of the units when it is running, especially when it's heating up a room. E.g. one of mine is currently maintaining a room temp of 20C, and the HX is ~30C. If it's actively heating, that will shoot up to >50C. Where you'll find A2W systems can end up with a max flow temp of somewhere in the 35-45C range. And rest of the time it will be providing lower than that. As UDF says A2A is very complicated to measure as well for home owners to get a definitive answer on how efficient it really is. I love A2A, but recognise A2W's benefits.
@@BenIsInSweden Don't need an IR thermometer, I can read the liquid temp from the faikin modules I have installed :) It's currently 42C when set to heat to 24C. But you're comparing that to the water temp, not the refrigerant temp. What's the refrigerant temp for you to hit a water flow temp of 35-45C? And what do you heat your hot water to?
My advice to anyone considering an air-source heat pump installation is to do your homework extensively. That way you can discuss proposed systems with the installer on an informed basis and lessen the chance of common errors occuring such as heat pump over-sizing.
Spot on, and one bit to query might be how low does the system modulate, i.e. what's the lowest power it can consume with compressor and pump running in a slow but steady state. I have a Daikin 6kW, which is part of the 4, 6, and 8 kW family; I suspect they modulate to a lower power level than their bigger brothers the 9, 11, 14 and 16kW family do. So would an 8kW low modulation unit, be a better choice than a 9kW not quite so low modulation unit 🙂
No plans to. I'll never be able to compete with many of the systems on there. It's not worth the £900 for the kit to be installed in my opinion. If I was more techy and had the time then I would go down the cheaper bus route, which appears to be becoming more popular on the site.
@@UpsideDownFork need the figures. Only makes economical sense at 4 and above. Noise is a real issue. Back ground noise for me is 30dB weighted at 0-100 Hz. Fans and when the compressor kicks in is currently too loud. Not sure I could live on an estate that was all heated with these. In Sydney we used to have to turn off the air con units at 23:00 hrs due to the noise and these are essentially heat pumps as they heat and cool.
@@Beaker159If you look up the data sheets for the product you're interested in, you will find some data. Some manufacturers hide the sound levels in their technical installation manuals which is sometimes not publicly available. These newer Gen heat pumps are so much quieter than AC units that we are all familiar with. It's achieved by a lot more rubber isolation mounts internally and externally, larger diameter fans that spin more slowly and a rotary compressor which all adds up to a significant improvement in noise produced by these.
You are misinformed about max temp of r32. The Samsung EHS monobloc has an outgoing temp of max 65degrees so legionella can be done without the use of an immersion.
Apologies for talking in broad terms. Generally R32 units are good up to 60 degrees and R290 good up to 70 degrees but there are some R32 which achieve 65 and R290 which achieve 80! Your point just strengthens the general statement I'm making that R290 advantage is mostly about the GWP. Thanks for contributing!
May be worth checking, my Daikin as example heats to 55C then adopts an on board 'booster heater' to push to 60C. I only ever witnessed it on during commissioning 🙂 Legionella will start to die at 50C and over, taking shorter periods at higher temperatures.
@_Dougaldog don't use the legionella cycle as only have 150 litre tank. So gets turned over regular mine doesn't have a booster heater just an immersion heater that's switched off
I don't believe that is feasible. Based on my experience of refrigerants being phased out for classic cars and new compressors etc being needed to upgrade the system.
Most parts of most refrigeration systems are designed with a specific refrigerant in mind including the condenser size, evaporator size, and metering device type and size. So much would need to be changed, it’s just unfeasible.
So on that basis I'd hazard a guess that R32 is likely to be phased out in the future due to it being more environmentally damaging, so "high temperature" heat pumps are likely to become the industry standard. Hence Octopus' strategy.
@@wotireckon so called "high temperature" heat pumps are already the industry standard. Every single heat pump manufacturer already supplies R290 pumps, some have done so for several years already. That's not the issue here. It's the marketing which is questionable and misleading.
@@wotireckon The 1.35kg of R32 (GWP of 675) in my Daikin 6kW is no more damaging to the environment should it all leak out than about 911kg of CO2, which is about six months worth for the average gas boiler. As an aside my fridge freezer compressor is on/off eight times a day for past 20 years, and is still going strong. R290 (propane flammable) and R32 (essentially non flammable) meet different requirements regarding MCS 020 regulations as to how close they can be placed to windows/doors etc.
@@UpsideDownFork surely they wouldn't guarantee anything outside of the kit they install anyway, so is the self build route any different from being lucky in already having 100% compatible plumbing/tank/rads in an old house, ready to just connect up a Cosy 6 + controls for free?
Doubling back on this one. From a strategic view I think the move from Octopus is genius. Unlock a bigger market, slashing installation costs and ensure that it is viable with competitive rates and smart software. I take your point - there is a chance to make an impact. I’d love to see the Heatgeek/open energy monitor tweaking the cosy 6 at low flow and really seeing what it can do.
Vertical integration can be excellent for both business and consumer when it works. Early reports are showing that the Cosy/Octopus API and integration does indeed have a few software tricks up it's sleeves so whilst it may not achieve the best COP out there, it looks like it'll be able to achieve the best running costs.
@@UpsideDownFork Thanks for the update. Make me think of Apple's play on bringing tech to the masses. Delivering an ecosytem that makes the experience as frictionless as possible. There is a lot riding on "when it works" - let's hope that it is flawless
I am lumbered with a central heating system which includes microbore piping set into floors and walls. If Propane could make an ASHP viable without replacing all the pipework that would make a heat pump possible for me.
Myth #1 heat pumps don't work with microbore. Myth #2 heat pumps will have to work at high temps to operate with microbore. Yes, heat pumps like a higher flow rate than gas boilers do, but we've been over-speccing our pipework for many many years anyway. If you have 10mm copper microbore then you can easily deliver 1kW of heat down that pipe. Most radiators in most houses do not need more than that. Your microbore will be spurred off a 15mm or 22mm pipe and normally feed just 1 rad. If it's just a short 10mm drop then you can carry even more heat energy through a short run. There are at least 3 of us on UA-cam who have shown our Vaillant heat pumps operating perfectly with microbore. My SCOP is over 4. My design flow temperature is 45 degrees. Most of the time my flow temp sits around 30-35 degrees throughout winter. R290 is unnecessary but does offer the lower GWP benefits.
To me, the main advantage is that it reduces/eliminates the need to upgrade your radiators. My 1990's built house needs a flow temperature of about 65C on the coldest days of winter (I set it as low as possible each day), so from that point of view this heat pump could cope. Swapping out 3 or 4 of the largest radiators would be possible, but replacing my microbore pipes would be a disruptive nightmare if that was needed.. However, any ideas as to the COP would be in that scenario - very low I'd suspect. With electricity costing four times as much as gas I'm far from convinced about changing over to a pump.
A flow temp of 65 degrees would be below 2. Microbore pipework is not the obstacle that some seem to portray. Our house has microbore and is no issue at all. If you have single rads that need more than 1.2kW of heat output then you may need to upgrade that pipework to 15mm. Lots of variables. High temp heating won't solve any issues with the current delta between gas and electricity.
@@UpsideDownFork Thanks for replying - I've got some large double panels (rated at 2.1, 1.6. 1.2 kW) plus an 0.8 kW. The rest are all circa 500 W. So if I upgraded those four by (say) 50% you think that microbore would be unsuitable? Can you mix microbore and 15 mm if if I left the smaller ones unchanged? I'm wondering if using lock-shield valve settings to balance the system, a lot of the advantages of the larger pipes would be lost.
@@roberthuntley1090 It's all about the room heat loss. In our home for example the house was originally built to a spec and along the way, cavity wall beads were added as well as triple glazing. This meant that when we came to upgrade radiators for the heat pump, one was already oversized, one was the perfect size and the rest mostly just needed moderate upsizing but without pipework alterations. Quick and easy to swap rads when the pipes remain the same. What i'm trying to say is that the rated outputs for the radiators aren't what you should base your pipe sizing on. As you've rightly pointed out, lockshields will be used to balance the flow down anyway. Yes, you can mix microbore and 15mm. Our downstairs had microbore throughout the downstairs and 15mm upstairs from the original build. The extension had electric underfloor heating when we moved in so a new 22mm pipe was run to the extension which then splits into 2x15mm feeds for 2 large rads in our extension. Just a case of balancing it all which I find easier to do with low temperature heating that the old gas boiler. If you want to get your own accurate heat loss, i'd recommend heatpunk as a good tool.
@@UpsideDownFork well of I can heat my house for 200- 300 Euro a full year with solid fuel day / night, can heat pumps beat that in performance? My utility bill is only 50 Euro bi monthly and in winter 120 bi monthly in December / January. Do the maths.
Am I missing something? Isn’t the main point of ‘high temperature’ heat pumps that they can use micro bore and existing radiators thus saving a lot of installation trouble and cost.
If you're replacing a high temperature gas set up, would'nt a higher temperature heat pump be a logical choice? It sounds like you would have to replace less infrastructure.
Section 5 of Part L states, that a heating system's flow temperature cannot exceed 55°C. A "low temperature" heat pump, i.e. R32 can achieve flow temps of 60 degrees so it's already suitable for a straight swap 👍
I'll let you into a secret, I've run a low temp heating system for 30 years, and have never run a legionnaires cycle. For us it comes down to having the correct size tank.
You're far from the first person to ask me and i've been reluctant to share my perspective publicly, but here you go: ua-cam.com/video/GYHYW3LhTYQ/v-deo.html
How do I put this politely? I don't think Robert has a clue. His consumption is probably off the charts but he has a field's worth of solar and multiple Tesla power walls so I don't think he's too concerned with high consumption. His situation is hardly feasible for 99% of the population. Paying for his 3 phase upgrade would have been a seriously expensive one too. If he had dropped a heat pump in instead of a tepeo, he could have reduced his consumption by 65-75%
@@UpsideDownFork i think thats possibly unfair to kryten, but also not to far off the mark . He said specifically he chose the tepeo over a heat pump because he wanted the coverage. i think his family like hot radiators, which is fair. i also think youre spot on with his usage and generation patterns. theres a fair few folks in this world who will be green and accept the cost to have it on their terms. ultimately, the money he saves on petrol probably offsets his additional electric costs :) The other thing ill say about tepeo, everyone in heat pumps goes on about microbore being the devil (true or not), and lots of people want to be told its an easy replacement, no radiator changes etc. Im looking at one for this reason, my home is almost fully plastered in microbore heating. i understand heatpumps can use microbore with the right setup, but im a green tech nerd!
@@sebaileyus8043 microbore here, no problem at all for heat pumps 👍 Hot radiators are just a sign of people accepting the status quo and not knowing that something better exists. 😉
Loved your commentary on the Fully charged show, in my eyes they have become the right wing of the electric world and some of the delivery actually puts me off, you deliver a balanced ‘down to earth’ view keep it coming.
Yeah, I appreciate what they have done and are doing, but i'd appreciate a little more critical scrutiny from them when meeting with manufacturers etc. They have such a powerful platform to effect change though, i'd like to see more action as a consequence.
Just as a disclaimer I am a paying supporter of FC and SBS, with this out of the way, to say they don't have balanced reporting or are the 'right wing' view is a bit far . Do you regular watch their content? They often platform all kinds of heating solutions including but not limited things like Infra red. Robert in his own home doesn't use a heat pump. I think you need to do a bit more research. before throwing stones. As mentioned at the end of your video EE and FC is a platform to raise awareness around things that don't require burning stuff. Buyers beware, you ned to do your own research and find the best solution for you. If you are going to invest money into your home or before you make any major purchase you should do your own research and then make your decision, you can't watch a 5 min video which features a single company in this case octopus and assume this is the best solution for everyone.
@@rajus0 yes I do watch them regularly I’m subscribed, and keep wanting to see what they put out, but as I said they are putting me off their content because ‘I’ feel they have swung too far to one side of the argument and I do not feel that the content is as balanced as it could be. Also very often I’m hearing the same arguments put in a much more succinct way than their channel, I did not say that they are not getting the electric message out there. It is my view, someone who is very much doing a lot of research into how to move our family to be more sustainable, and less polluting in the world. Your comment about how I should do more research is incorrect, but then of course no one else would know that. I’m glad you pay to support them, and I’m glad you feel they are doing a good job, but in my humble, wanting to be much greener, opinion they have swung one way, right or left maybe that was the wrong analogy to use. I will keep on listening and watching their content, but as was stated in this video, don’t take all they say as gospel….
@@Gazmaz Thanks for your reply, I think that they share technology on their platform that is available , if the options are heat pumps, infra red and tepo electric boilers I think that is all they can share. it would be interesting if or when thermal batteries like Sand batteries or something else are fit for residential use I am sure they will promote those to. Part of it might be down to if they don't share large announcements in the sector like something octopus releases which is now the largest energy company in the UK people would complain they aren't doing their Job. Similar to if Tech blogs didn't discuss the latest iPhone we all now it is a few % points better than last year nd their marketing team give fancy names to standard tech, but it still gets reported . I would imagine to they have a shooting schedule and they will produce content that gets clicks. If you watch other channels like Undecided with Matt feral, every few weeks it is the newest battery breakthrough that is going to change everything, often in the comments people say "not another battery video" but it gets clicks and people want to hear about that kind of stuff I think apart from Heat Pumps, electric heats, infra red and these tepo boiler things I am not sure what other options there are. I consume this content fairly regularly. I guess it is limited what you can share and heat pumps are (for better or worse) seen as the next best alternative, especially in the UK where the UK has put public money behind them. I am sure if the UK Gov put money behind infra red as an example we would see way more content about that.
What do you mean by they're right wing? Not arguing or disagreeing with you, I'm honestly asking. I watch Fully Charged as well and they seem pretty left wing/liberal?
I can’t see why you object to R290. For me as a consumer it is VERY MUCH about making installation easier, because the cost of reinstalling central heating hardware is too expensive. You might not care because you make big profits reinstalling stuff. We all want a simple boiler replacement. You make money from persuading us we can’t have that.
I don't object to R290. You might have missed the point of the video. I don't install this kit and have nothing to gain by sharing this info. Please see other videos on my channel for more context. Do your own research. You will see that R290 has only 2 benefits, lower GWP and higher max temp. R32 will happily heat your rads up to 60 degrees, acting as a direct replacement for nearly every single boiler in the country if wanted and achieve the same COP as R290. Both systems will be equally inefficient if run at those high flow temps.
High temp heat pumps are nothing more than marketing nonsense. By all means get a heat pump and run it at 60-70°c and then see how ridiculous your energy bill is.
If there isn’t a *loss* at lower flow temps then the wider range is only ever going to be good - the immersion has a scop of 1, so even if it’s only at 1-2 running at high temp… that’s still a benefit. It does seem to encourage a “lazier” installation though.
@@UpsideDownFork Whilst I agree with pretty much everything that you said in the video, I also feel that you were too negative about it. You correctly state that an R290 will do everything that an R32 will, and to the same standard, but then seem to devalue the primary reason for choosing why an R290 should always be chosen over an R32 given the choice - the environmental impact being 200x less. I agree that the focus on the "high temperature" part of it is just meaningless marketing guff, and risks allowing poor installers to get away with shoddy workmanship, but if we're going to have 20m+ heat pumps then it's better that they're 20m+ on R290 then it is 20m+ on R32. Everything else being equal, choosing the R32 option should never be the logical choice. Better instead focus on what can be done to educate installers on what constitutes best practice for their installations.
Point taken on the broader hyperbole on everything electric but they do excellent campaigning and raising of awareness so credit to them. They do what they do and you do what you do, I.e. different to them but valuable in your own right. On the cozy 6, have a lot of faith in Octopus and am considering getting that system installed, from my limited understanding, I’m getting the impression that buying into the Octopus ecosystem a step further would be a safe option. Im currently on Octopus intelligent for EV charging and feel as though my transition is going in the right direction. Admittedly, that’s based more on my gut feeling as opposed to your impressive advanced analysis.
Very true about EE. Thanks for commenting. The Cosy 6 is an untested product. I'm in touch with 3 people who have them and so far still seem to have teething issues. More like beta testing than polished final product but at the price and the promise of further software development and integration, it promises a lot. Fingers crossed they pull it off! 🤞
@ Yes, the beta stage of the cozy 6 has crossed my mind, this is the case with lots of solutions I’ve looked at on here in the green domestic energy market. It’s all happening very quickly with a lot of competing options. I might hold off until the new while you and others do your stuff and come up with some conclusions. Of course there’s always going to be something new and better round the corner and at some point you just have to jump in. Thanks again for helping.
Thanks for your videos interesting to watch I recently moved into a new house which is now about 6 months old and obviously has a new modern boiler but I've been looking at heat pump is octopus energy quoted me 1,350 my home is a new build 4 bedroom detached house
Great video I’m in the process of buying a air sauce heat pump from octopus energy I’ve recently bought TADO V3+ WIRELESS HEATING & HOT WATER SMART THERMOSTAT along with 12 Smart TRV Thermostatic Radiator Valve Which works great with my combi Vaillant bolier My question is would all my TRV Thermostatic Radiator Valves and wired tado receiver be all compatible With a R32 Daikin heat pump? Or would I just have to buy a new Tado receiver and stats again ? Thanks Gary
They can be made to work but they will kill your heat pump efficiency. Sell them on as a kit to someone with a gas boiler. Running your heat pump as open loop as possible is the way to best efficiency and comfort 👍
Thing is heat pumps are ok if you have solar and battery systems. Personally my cheapest quote so far is £5000 after the substacys witch is a lot, let alone for a basic solar system £7000 on top then factor in a new roof due apparently even though my roof has 40+yrs of life left both wining bids refuse to fit till i have a new roof even though they both say the roof has 40+yrs left and well exceeds any support needs, putting it down to it having old style felt. And I’ve had roofers inspect and there puzzled even a surveyor , both solar installers wear very reputable and highly recommended. And if i fitted a new roof it will be massively over £10k. Which makes it all very un affordable. Then i factor in if i just had a heat pump and using my forecasted savings of only about £10 a month £120 over a year and over the 25yr life span = £3000 saved witch dosent come close to paying for itself or even covering it’s replacement, then if you factor into the equation as you should servicing yearly service I’ve been quoted for HP £220 compared to my gas boiler £70… that wipes out any so called saving if not paying more. At the end of the day this is not suitable for all nor affordable especially with the economy going down. Don’t get me Wong if you tick all the boxes and you can afford the price of entry it can work but there are a lot of expensive boxes to tick.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the forecasts. Mine said I would use 5000kWh in a year to heat the home and hot water, I used 2500kWh in reality.
You've got to admit that low temperature heating is a barrier for people. People are strangely averse to minor radiator changes and that seems to prevent them using lower flow temperatures for their non condensing but labelled condensing gas boiler equally as much as a low temperature heat pump. This is Octopus's angle. Installing brilliantly efficient low temperature HP systems is slow and bespoke and time consuming. We haven't got time for that. Where as a higher temperature system is easier to lob in with less changes needed. Now the problem is that it gets a lower SCOP, and might not reach parity with gas heating costs as easily. The crazy gas to electricity price ratio we have here is the problem. 4 to 1 , where as lots of the rest of the world is 2 or 3 to 1. Is it better to roll out a few perfect HP or loads of less perfect ones? That's their pitch albeit I'm sure they explain it better than me themselves.
Well put. The truth is, all of that can still be achieved by an old R32 Daikin "low temperature" heat pump. It can still heat those existing rads to 50 or 60 degrees. I don't have an issue with Octopus rolling out heat pumps to the masses, I want to support that in every way possible. I just think the marketing surrounding it is disingenuous to say the least. They're not the only ones doing it as well. They're just an easy target because of their high profile.
“Strangely averse”? I was told a heat pump install would cost me about £40k for my house. That doesn’t include all the ripping up of carpets and flooring to fit new pipes and radiators. When a new boiler would cost about £5k, there is nothing strange about being averse to the low-temp heat pump idea.
I was always told run the gas boiler flat out or at least 90% on its thermostat and use external controls to get the house temperature up quickly so the boiler shuts down to save energy. Of course others in house will say 'oh the radiators are cold, I'll click up the thermostat'. For the last several years I run the boiler at a much lower temperature setting, it runs much longer, the radiators are not as hot but the room temperature is much more even and we use less gas. I've increased the loft insulation depth and this has been another improvement, it wasn't the law of diminishing returns I thought it would be. As one shop says 'every little helps!'
A condensing boiler is more efficient at lower flow temperatures (below 57c). A boiler operating at lower burner power will also be more efficient. Cycling a boiler on and off very frequently is inefficient. This is why boilers now have variable gas flow rate rather than really old boilers that only had a gas flow rate of on or off. The advice you were given likely applies to very old boilers that didn't have variable power output and weren't condensing boilers. The only optimisation you could make to them was stopping them cycling on and off by setting them to a high flow temperature.
Interesting comments, very helpful. Would be interested to hear more thoughts on infrared....we are trying to decide on infrared vs air-to-wet vs air-to-air solutions...and going round in circles!! 🙃 Infrared is never going to be as efficient but could be cost effective I guess if you have battery + PV 🤔
Infrared is known to cause damp and humidity issues in a domestic property due to it's targeted and limited ability. I'm not totally against it as a supplement in bathrooms, occasional spaces etc but it can't offer the same levels or comfort or running costs as a heat pump system can, whether that be A2A or A2W. We really need more places where homeowners can go and trial these different technologies to get a proper real world feel. Having used IR for 4 months before our A2W heat pump came online, I will never go back to using IR in a home environment. Expensive and uncomfortable.
@@UpsideDownFork the thing is Infrared is the same as heat pumps, if it's not fitted and used correctly it will not perform to its optimum. Infrared is actually extremely good at preventing damp if it's set up with the proper controllers and sized correctly. As to costs to run, yes it will be more expensive than a gas combi however again if it's set up right it's not as bad as you might think. ASHP or a combi has to heat up pipes, radiators then the air which rises when hot so you have to heat up more air before you get warm. Infrared on the ceiling heats you first but then heats the fabric of the building so over time costs fall if you manage it properly with smart controllers. I've been looking into ASHP and IR for months and exponents of each say the other is a con! Who to believe? Well my plan is to go with infrared because that's affordable and can be implemented gradually as and when we can afford to get more. Once the installation (by a UK company that manufactures and installs it's own product) is complete with it's smart controllers then we'll see. In the interim I'll keep the gas c/h and supplement it with the IR panels until it becomes the reverse, panels supplemented by c/h. We'll probably reach a critical point where a battery is needed to use overnight cheap rate but that'll be a judgment call as to if and when. My personal reason for going this route is it seems to be the least disruptive and the least complicated to understand and operate. I cannot do all the mental tinkering that seems to be required to make an ASHP work, I've considered A2A but not keen on having big holes punched through my walls disrupting the air gap and causing damp problems (I won't have cavity wall insulation for the same reason). Although I'm sure I'd appreciate the aircon in summer, with my chronic health condition I wouldn't like the moving air flow, either the noise or the draft or is it draught, can't spell today, so that's off the table. I need to look back to remind me of how you went about testing IR for four months but if you inadvertently acquired the wrong size and/or located them wrongly then you do a disservice to their potential use in a case like mine to pronounce them a con.
@@judebrown4103 the short version of our experience was that they were ruinously expensive. We never ran them long enough for the fabric to heat up and retain heat for when they switched off. I tried targeted heating only when a human was in the room and I tried leaving them on a lower setting for longer. Unfortunately neither option worked. I haven't produced a video on this specifically as the company I worked with were great and they did agree to take all of the kit back and refund me. The installer who I spoke with told me off the record that it is not uncommon for kit to be returned and refunded, so make of that anecdote what you will. They only heat things in direct sight, so any obstructions caused the shade effect. Comfort was not a major consideration at the time. It's only in hindsight that I now see the MASSIVE comfort benefits of an A2W HP. A well installed and commissioned heat pump will not need tinkering. I wish you the best of luck and please report back after a winter with IR. I think in some limited scenarios they could be ok as supplementary heating, but I just can't swallow the argument of them as a primary source from my own experience. 👍
@@UpsideDownForkthank you so much for this comprehensive reply, really so helpful to know. Who did you use, out of curiosity? (It also explains why I can't find the video I could have sworn you made!😅) I will definitely approach with caution, my house has small rooms and we don't like too much heat so I'm hoping those factors will help keep bills down. I will be careful to get the proper regulators too. This year we changed the way we use our gas c/h from turning it down to 10° overnight then putting it up to 18° in the morning. Using this method we also found it often got chilly in the evening and we'd have to turn up to 20°. We changed that to a set back temp of 17° overnight, which to our surprise wasn't too warm and turned up to 18/18.5° during the day. Interestingly we never had to turn it up in the evening this year despite some cold snaps plus our bills were not as high even with the price increase. So this is what I mean by proper regulation of the use of heat, which I know you're aware of, but it's why I'm prepared to try to reduce our reliance on gas even if I can't eliminate it completely. Its not going to be financially possible to start the change until September/October and I reckon the most we'll put in at once is three rooms upstairs so results will be of less use to start with. But I'll try and keep you posted. Edit: I forgot to say that we will be mounting the panels on the ceiling to lessen the risk of heat blocking.
If the marketing bring some nervy people on board seems good. Also for the proposed £500 you can put it in try different flow temps see if it works with your system. If your scops not to your liking you can change some rads in future. Makes for a minimal initial instal and one less gas boiler.
The £500 is highly misleading. On other UA-cam videos the Octopus lady says the AVERAGE price is £500. They quoted me over £4000 for a 3 bed semi which is 8 times more. Octopus then quickly called me (which was good) but they were unable to explain in detail the £4000. It seemed they are proposing to do a lot of unnecessary work in the property. The Octopus lady in video said the Cosy Heat Pump is for everyone. However the Octopus sales man told me over the phone that they will only install a heat pump if it matches the total heat loss from the property and they may refuse to install an Octopus Heat Pump but install a Japanese unit instead.
Just to add a little fact, i have just had the information through about the Cosy 6 and it has another problem. It can't run on any microbore pipe! Well that counts out pretty much all new build housing going up throughout the uk in the last 20 years and more. Unless you rip out your brand new piping and probably flooring, carpets ect ect to fit a larger pipe you are absolutely buggered. All this new ashp tech from octopus housing is complete junk unless you have an older house with the larger pipes. My home is only 9 years old and i would love to get an ashp from Octopus as our gas combi boiler is not the greatest but after the information on here and the pipe issues i can't justify ripping apart my home of under 10 years for something that has been designed for a bygone age or just older house's. Its a two finger salute to everyone who is being done over because they have gas in relative new builds. £300+ quid to get a new ashp from octopus my big butt its not. Consider the damage to my ceiling while they rip up the upstairs chipboard, everyone knows the plasterboard downstairs is going to crack and flake away as these new builds are constructed poorly. Is octopus going to fix that, i very much doubt it.
I am surprised by this. Very surprised. Do you have 8 or 10mm? Is your plastic or copper? The Cosy 6 should be able to handle microbore just like every other heat pump can. Do you have room for a buffer tank? That's what Octopus normally use for their installations and the thing that usually guarantees the correct flow rates for microbore pipework.
@@UpsideDownFork it's 10mm plastic, I have room for a buffer tank and I have had them visit twice to check and go into a detailed chat about it. On the official data that has been sent to me it's clearly printed that the Cosy 6 is NOT compatible with a microbore system. I am having a chat with them this morning to find out a bit more and get an answer to this. The other ASHP that octopus offers does work with microbore so I will probably have to go back to that but I have serious doubts if it's going to run my heating and hot water sufficiently. I have waited for a long time for the Cosy 6 and I now feel I have been strung along for something that won't work. I am not best pleased 😒
@@davedevonlad7402 the Cosy 6 is an unproven unit, so I guess there is some risk attached. The daikin units are widely used and well understood by most installers, even outside Octopus. I wouldn't have hesitated to have a daikin units installed at our house, unfortunately it just failed the noise test by a single decibel! Once you find out more about the Cosy 6 I'd love to hear more about it. If you've got any of the documentation, would you be willing to send it to upsidedownfork @outlook.com ?
@@UpsideDownFork below is a copy of a paragraph from octopus that I have been sent. " I've had an update from our Install tech team - they've told me that although you qualify for the Cosy 6, the higher flow rate of this unit can't run on your existing pipework that contains 'microbore'. Microbore is compatible with the Daikin unit but not with the Cosy 6. A re-pipe will be needed to be able to proceed with the new unit. If we proceed with the Cosy 6 - we negate the need for planning permission but then have to address a re-pipe, to upgrade any microbore. I can assist with the organisation of this. If we proceed with the Daiken (1st position) - your planning permission application is ready to be sent and paid for. We'd then wait for the council response before locking you in for an installation date. " Edit: as the documents have our private information on I am not willing to send that but as you can see from a copy of a part of the response I got you can clearly see that the Cosy 6 will not run on microbore, I will update this if I get any more information from my phone call with them today.
@davedevonlad7402 interesting! We're in 2 year old newbuilt with 10mm microbore and Octopus is pushing us towards Cosy 6. Not convinced though on performance and heat pumps shouldn't be really run hot and fast, but lukewarm and slow.
I disagree, if you can hit that high temp without immersion heater. Also heat without radiator upgrades then its win win. More adoption. But still we need that drop in electricity price through green generation
Yes, lower efficiency is only going to work if the price gap between gas and electric is sorted. Otherwise running a heat pump at a cop of 2 just isn't viable financially.
Looks like r290 is more efficient at lower temperatures. R32 is more efficient at higher temperatures. In the UK, a colder country, it looks like r290 would win.
My R32 should comfortably work to -15C. One thing to consider though is permitted development and MCS 020 planning standards. R32 units can be placed under windows, whereas R290 being propane, and flammable means these units have to be placed away from windows and doors to satisfy regulations.
@@hano552 the performance gap between the refrigerants is negligible in our climate. The GWP difference is substantial so I do support the phasing in of R290. I just object to the marketing.
Change your click bate title please , most people won’t watch your video and just have the option it’s a crap product which it isn’t . Aren’t you supposed to be a supporter of greener tech n9t all this false news
There are a lot out their waiting to rip the consumers off. In my case a 10 year old three bed semi with an EPC of A. Three companies gave me a ball park figure of £1500 to £2000 to install a heatpump all three wanted around £250 for a survey before committing to a price and one of the company’s wasn’t even going to change the cylinder instead fitting a water to water external heat exchanger, all were Heat Geek engineers. In the end Octopus installed a Daikin heatpump for £8600 less the grant of £7500 and it’s working great. As for their high temp heatpump if it helps people change without costing the earth then why not? As one only needs it to run at those temperatures when is really cold outside or as in a lot of case of people are at work just need a quick boost in the evening. Don’t shoot Octopus until you’ve tested the goods. A retired heating Engineer of 50 year experience
I don't think anyone was setting out to rip you off.
That just sounds like the consequence of economies of scale.
The thing that is potentially unique to the octopus offer is that they can integrate it with power market signals much better that what manufacturers our third party installers can, potentially saving users significant money in the process.
Yes! Now this is the benefit that should be more widely touted!
A heat pump that natively works with agile is a product that I can really get behind!
My Mixergy HWC will integrate to Octopus Agile tariffs (which I'm not yet on), and just in past couple of days the App' upgraded to offer 'Heat Geek' mode which allows any HWC temperature to be selected, although there is a disclaimer regarding 'Legionella Cycle', which is fair enough.
In saying that my HP doesn't as yet, but it's just an App update, or perhaps firmware on HP controller.
"In saying that my HP doesn't as yet, but it's just an App update, or perhaps firmware on HP controller."
If I moved to agile then in the seasons when compressor constantly running I'd set schedule to lowest requirement (soft off) during premium times, thermal mass would hold temperature steady for a few hours, sorted :-)
That's 'Plan A'.
I use Home assistant to do something similar. I have integrations for Daikin, Octopus, and my battery storage. I have automations that can take advantage of pricing indicators from the Octopus integration to control other devices.
This works for me as I like the extra control but I can definitely see the advantages/attraction of it being built in.
You see this with a lot of “new” tech. Adoption is slow because people do not understand how it works and therefore have irrational worries. If all it takes is to call it a high temp heat pump, which is not a lie, than that’s absolutely amazing both for consumers and the business. Also, high temp pumps can have interesting applications such as use in thermal energy storage to make use of dynamic electricity prices.
Superb clear concise information ...thanks
Thanks for the feedback Andy.
Totally unscripted and unprepared seems to work for me.
Less overthinking!
I appreciate your commitment to truth over other priorities, good for you. Also, once again great information, sensible practical ideas from you, not conforming to other ‘narratives’. Cheers
What about the electric smart tariffs? Who covers the huge discounted rates that are on offer? When will they rug pull it?
@@Alan-vg6ew all smart tariffs are currently profitable for the energy companies.
Some of them make economic sense due to the incredibly lucrative DFS market. 👍
I don't see a time that smart tariffs will disappear, I would guess the exact opposite.
@@UpsideDownFork Yep, especially with the government making the correct noises regards regional pricing.
I have a 20 year old oil boiler and I’m pretty sure it’s about to calf. Currently spend about 1200 PA on kerosene. I was under the impression I have to upgrade all the house rads and plumbing for a conversion to heat pump. Is it possible to upgrade to a heat pump keeping existing infrastructure ?
So many variables that it's impossible to say without a full assessment.
Most homes just need a few cheap and easy rad upgrades. Very few need any pipework upgrades.
Radiators in older homes tend to be oversized already especially if you have added double glazing, cavity wall insulation or the recommend depth of loft insulation since the heating system was installed.
Always, always insulate first. Heating systems need to be sized and commissioned according to the heat loss of the property to run efficiently whether it's a heat pump or gas boiler. With gas boilers quite often the installers will just sling it in with no consideration to heat loss and leave the flow temp way too high with unbalanced rads and just control room temps with TRV's rather than correctly sizing radiators and balancing the system.
Greg's main promise of the R290 Cosy6 is that it can run with a standard "gas /1m2 coil " hot water tank . & for the 8 million of us with those tanks we can save £2k on the install. ( yes we will have low COP for HW but how low?). If true it will be a benefit.
Regarding heating flow temperature in the 55c 40c range it is suggested 5c drop in 'coldest day design flow temperature' causes a 8% saving in Kwh electricity/year & this will be the same with high temp heat pumps . Do you think that 8% is about right ?
You will lose somewhere in the region of 20-30% efficiency by using a regular cylinder over a large coil HP cylinder.
This could reduce a system with a DHW COP of 3.0, down to 2.1 as a worst case kind of scenario for example.
The 8% saving for space heating is about right.
If you take the 5kW Vaillant unit for example and plugged it into an existing system at a flow temp of 55 degrees which most would run at out of the box. You should expect a COP of 3. If you then upgrade a few rads and lower the design temp to 45 degrees, you should achieve a COP of 4.
That could be a difference of £200-£300 saved per year depending on the heat loss of the house.
Rad upgrades are cheap and in most cases, easy.
If these upgrades are done during a HP installation, then they are VAT free and in some cases partially covered by the BUS grant.
Ive got a new build that was build 2 years ago that came with gas central heating and it does appeal in not having to change the radiators since theres about 14 of them. My issue is the house is too hot most of the time and if there was some heat pump product you could also connect to an air conditioning multi split system that would be ideal.
@@nick255
Most HP's by design are air conditioning units, as example my Daikin EDLA06 is the 'heat only model', whereas the EBLA06 has heating and cooling functionality, thanks to a valve that can 'reverse flow' and pump heat from inside to outside. Potential issues then with condensation if using wet systems, unless used with designed emitters with condensation traps.
But grant doesn't cover that, my theory being that government don't want to create huge demand on grid over summer, causing power rationing calls or outages as they have in California.
Mine runs fine on a standard tank although it is only 5 years old so maybe not to scaled up. Never a bad investment a new tank better could and better insulation than old ones
If it could bring down the install cost and does not have a massive impact efficiency then it would be good but time will tell.
The bit of information most people leave out with R290 heat pumps is that there is more regulation regarding the position of heat pump. This means some properties will not have a suitable location and some will not have a suitable location that the customer will be happy with.
@@farab4391 yep, I covered that in this video:
ua-cam.com/video/dFciSCIEI2c/v-deo.html
👍
@@UpsideDownFork Ah, thank you. Great videos 👍
I did my FGAS qualification so that I could buy and install an air-to-air heat pump. I think that is UK tradition to keep to our wet radiators, we should be plumbing in refrigerant pipework like the continentals. Also, completely agree that is a marketing excersise to push radiant electric heaters, I keep telling people I work with, it is impossible to improve on the efficiency of resistance heating. But they'd rather listen to the ad-men..
I believe A2A will take a giant leap forward once the BUS grant is removed.
@UpsideDownFork BUS grant should apply to A2A really, it's more efficient than A2W as it uses much lower temps, can cool as well, and can much better heat or cool a single room at a time.
I've just fitted two 9kW external Daikin units running 4 indoor units each. Love it so far. Currently still using the gas boiler for hot water, but looking at some heat pump method for that.
@@richardskinner6391 I agree with the benefits you mention, apart from the efficiency claims. Extremely difficult to measure that and the people who have attempted, seem to only achieve a COP of around 3.
More than offset by the overall lower running costs due to zoning and intermittent heating being possible.
@@richardskinner6391 It's a myth (or just general misunderstanding) that A2A use much lower temps. Use an IR Thermometer pointed at the internal HX of one of the units when it is running, especially when it's heating up a room. E.g. one of mine is currently maintaining a room temp of 20C, and the HX is ~30C. If it's actively heating, that will shoot up to >50C. Where you'll find A2W systems can end up with a max flow temp of somewhere in the 35-45C range. And rest of the time it will be providing lower than that.
As UDF says A2A is very complicated to measure as well for home owners to get a definitive answer on how efficient it really is.
I love A2A, but recognise A2W's benefits.
@@BenIsInSweden Don't need an IR thermometer, I can read the liquid temp from the faikin modules I have installed :)
It's currently 42C when set to heat to 24C. But you're comparing that to the water temp, not the refrigerant temp. What's the refrigerant temp for you to hit a water flow temp of 35-45C? And what do you heat your hot water to?
Nice to see unbiased opinion
@@paulkearsley9509 thank you 👍
My advice to anyone considering an air-source heat pump installation is to do your homework extensively. That way you can discuss proposed systems with the installer on an informed basis and lessen the chance of common errors occuring such as heat pump over-sizing.
Spot on, and one bit to query might be how low does the system modulate, i.e. what's the lowest power it can consume with compressor and pump running in a slow but steady state.
I have a Daikin 6kW, which is part of the 4, 6, and 8 kW family; I suspect they modulate to a lower power level than their bigger brothers the 9, 11, 14 and 16kW family do.
So would an 8kW low modulation unit, be a better choice than a 9kW not quite so low modulation unit 🙂
When is your system going to be on the heatpumpmonitor?
No plans to.
I'll never be able to compete with many of the systems on there.
It's not worth the £900 for the kit to be installed in my opinion.
If I was more techy and had the time then I would go down the cheaper bus route, which appears to be becoming more popular on the site.
I have my M5 Stack Tough ready to install if we get planning permission approved. A week to go for decision day.
If one needs to run a higher flow temperature due to design of radiators and lack of insulation is the COP any better? Also,are they any quieter?
Cop is better at lower flow temps.
Sound is also marginally quieter at lower flow temps. Probably not noticeable in the real world.
@@UpsideDownFork need the figures. Only makes economical sense at 4 and above. Noise is a real issue. Back ground noise for me is 30dB weighted at 0-100 Hz. Fans and when the compressor kicks in is currently too loud. Not sure I could live on an estate that was all heated with these. In Sydney we used to have to turn off the air con units at 23:00 hrs due to the noise and these are essentially heat pumps as they heat and cool.
@@Beaker159If you look up the data sheets for the product you're interested in, you will find some data. Some manufacturers hide the sound levels in their technical installation manuals which is sometimes not publicly available.
These newer Gen heat pumps are so much quieter than AC units that we are all familiar with.
It's achieved by a lot more rubber isolation mounts internally and externally, larger diameter fans that spin more slowly and a rotary compressor which all adds up to a significant improvement in noise produced by these.
You are misinformed about max temp of r32. The Samsung EHS monobloc has an outgoing temp of max 65degrees so legionella can be done without the use of an immersion.
Apologies for talking in broad terms.
Generally R32 units are good up to 60 degrees and R290 good up to 70 degrees but there are some R32 which achieve 65 and R290 which achieve 80!
Your point just strengthens the general statement I'm making that R290 advantage is mostly about the GWP.
Thanks for contributing!
May be worth checking, my Daikin as example heats to 55C then adopts an on board 'booster heater' to push to 60C.
I only ever witnessed it on during commissioning 🙂
Legionella will start to die at 50C and over, taking shorter periods at higher temperatures.
@_Dougaldog don't use the legionella cycle as only have 150 litre tank. So gets turned over regular mine doesn't have a booster heater just an immersion heater that's switched off
Given the environmental benefit, is it feasible to 're-gas' an R32 heat pump with R290, or does the pump need to be changed?
I don't believe that is feasible. Based on my experience of refrigerants being phased out for classic cars and new compressors etc being needed to upgrade the system.
Most parts of most refrigeration systems are designed with a specific refrigerant in mind including the condenser size, evaporator size, and metering device type and size. So much would need to be changed, it’s just unfeasible.
So on that basis I'd hazard a guess that R32 is likely to be phased out in the future due to it being more environmentally damaging, so "high temperature" heat pumps are likely to become the industry standard. Hence Octopus' strategy.
@@wotireckon so called "high temperature" heat pumps are already the industry standard.
Every single heat pump manufacturer already supplies R290 pumps, some have done so for several years already.
That's not the issue here.
It's the marketing which is questionable and misleading.
@@wotireckon
The 1.35kg of R32 (GWP of 675) in my Daikin 6kW is no more damaging to the environment should it all leak out than about 911kg of CO2, which is about six months worth for the average gas boiler.
As an aside my fridge freezer compressor is on/off eight times a day for past 20 years, and is still going strong.
R290 (propane flammable) and R32 (essentially non flammable) meet different requirements regarding MCS 020 regulations as to how close they can be placed to windows/doors etc.
Could self builders install their own plumbing, rads or UFH, circulation pumps and DHW tank then get Octopus to install a Cosy and controls for free?
Yes, in theory. But they won't guarantee your work.
@@UpsideDownFork surely they wouldn't guarantee anything outside of the kit they install anyway, so is the self build route any different from being lucky in already having 100% compatible plumbing/tank/rads in an old house, ready to just connect up a Cosy 6 + controls for free?
Doubling back on this one. From a strategic view I think the move from Octopus is genius. Unlock a bigger market, slashing installation costs and ensure that it is viable with competitive rates and smart software. I take your point - there is a chance to make an impact. I’d love to see the Heatgeek/open energy monitor tweaking the cosy 6 at low flow and really seeing what it can do.
Vertical integration can be excellent for both business and consumer when it works.
Early reports are showing that the Cosy/Octopus API and integration does indeed have a few software tricks up it's sleeves so whilst it may not achieve the best COP out there, it looks like it'll be able to achieve the best running costs.
@@UpsideDownFork Thanks for the update. Make me think of Apple's play on bringing tech to the masses. Delivering an ecosytem that makes the experience as frictionless as possible. There is a lot riding on "when it works" - let's hope that it is flawless
I am lumbered with a central heating system which includes microbore piping set into floors and walls. If Propane could make an ASHP viable without replacing all the pipework that would make a heat pump possible for me.
Myth #1 heat pumps don't work with microbore.
Myth #2 heat pumps will have to work at high temps to operate with microbore.
Yes, heat pumps like a higher flow rate than gas boilers do, but we've been over-speccing our pipework for many many years anyway.
If you have 10mm copper microbore then you can easily deliver 1kW of heat down that pipe. Most radiators in most houses do not need more than that.
Your microbore will be spurred off a 15mm or 22mm pipe and normally feed just 1 rad.
If it's just a short 10mm drop then you can carry even more heat energy through a short run.
There are at least 3 of us on UA-cam who have shown our Vaillant heat pumps operating perfectly with microbore. My SCOP is over 4. My design flow temperature is 45 degrees.
Most of the time my flow temp sits around 30-35 degrees throughout winter.
R290 is unnecessary but does offer the lower GWP benefits.
To me, the main advantage is that it reduces/eliminates the need to upgrade your radiators. My 1990's built house needs a flow temperature of about 65C on the coldest days of winter (I set it as low as possible each day), so from that point of view this heat pump could cope. Swapping out 3 or 4 of the largest radiators would be possible, but replacing my microbore pipes would be a disruptive nightmare if that was needed..
However, any ideas as to the COP would be in that scenario - very low I'd suspect. With electricity costing four times as much as gas I'm far from convinced about changing over to a pump.
A flow temp of 65 degrees would be below 2.
Microbore pipework is not the obstacle that some seem to portray.
Our house has microbore and is no issue at all.
If you have single rads that need more than 1.2kW of heat output then you may need to upgrade that pipework to 15mm.
Lots of variables.
High temp heating won't solve any issues with the current delta between gas and electricity.
@@UpsideDownFork Thanks for replying - I've got some large double panels (rated at 2.1, 1.6. 1.2 kW) plus an 0.8 kW. The rest are all circa 500 W. So if I upgraded those four by (say) 50% you think that microbore would be unsuitable?
Can you mix microbore and 15 mm if if I left the smaller ones unchanged? I'm wondering if using lock-shield valve settings to balance the system, a lot of the advantages of the larger pipes would be lost.
@@roberthuntley1090 It's all about the room heat loss. In our home for example the house was originally built to a spec and along the way, cavity wall beads were added as well as triple glazing. This meant that when we came to upgrade radiators for the heat pump, one was already oversized, one was the perfect size and the rest mostly just needed moderate upsizing but without pipework alterations. Quick and easy to swap rads when the pipes remain the same.
What i'm trying to say is that the rated outputs for the radiators aren't what you should base your pipe sizing on. As you've rightly pointed out, lockshields will be used to balance the flow down anyway.
Yes, you can mix microbore and 15mm. Our downstairs had microbore throughout the downstairs and 15mm upstairs from the original build.
The extension had electric underfloor heating when we moved in so a new 22mm pipe was run to the extension which then splits into 2x15mm feeds for 2 large rads in our extension.
Just a case of balancing it all which I find easier to do with low temperature heating that the old gas boiler.
If you want to get your own accurate heat loss, i'd recommend heatpunk as a good tool.
@@UpsideDownFork Thanks for the helpful reply.
Heat pumps = money pit
You're on the wrong channel to be spreading that misinformation.
ua-cam.com/video/GM2MCaYyaHE/v-deo.html
@@UpsideDownFork well of I can heat my house for 200- 300 Euro a full year with solid fuel day / night, can heat pumps beat that in performance? My utility bill is only 50 Euro bi monthly and in winter 120 bi monthly in December / January. Do the maths.
@@irishman9877 😂 ok, thanks for the enlightenment 👍 😁
Am I missing something?
Isn’t the main point of ‘high temperature’ heat pumps that they can use micro bore and existing radiators thus saving a lot of installation trouble and cost.
That's the fallacy that has been touted.
The point of the video is to explain why that statement is untrue 👍
If you're replacing a high temperature gas set up, would'nt a higher temperature heat pump be a logical choice? It sounds like you would have to replace less infrastructure.
Section 5 of Part L states, that a heating system's flow temperature cannot exceed 55°C.
A "low temperature" heat pump, i.e. R32 can achieve flow temps of 60 degrees so it's already suitable for a straight swap 👍
I'll let you into a secret, I've run a low temp heating system for 30 years, and have never run a legionnaires cycle. For us it comes down to having the correct size tank.
Great video. Would love to hear more thoughts from you about infra red heat panels!
You're far from the first person to ask me and i've been reluctant to share my perspective publicly, but here you go: ua-cam.com/video/GYHYW3LhTYQ/v-deo.html
Robert from fully charged has the Tepco himself and seems really pleased with it
How do I put this politely? I don't think Robert has a clue.
His consumption is probably off the charts but he has a field's worth of solar and multiple Tesla power walls so I don't think he's too concerned with high consumption. His situation is hardly feasible for 99% of the population. Paying for his 3 phase upgrade would have been a seriously expensive one too.
If he had dropped a heat pump in instead of a tepeo, he could have reduced his consumption by 65-75%
@@UpsideDownFork i think thats possibly unfair to kryten, but also not to far off the mark . He said specifically he chose the tepeo over a heat pump because he wanted the coverage. i think his family like hot radiators, which is fair. i also think youre spot on with his usage and generation patterns. theres a fair few folks in this world who will be green and accept the cost to have it on their terms. ultimately, the money he saves on petrol probably offsets his additional electric costs :)
The other thing ill say about tepeo, everyone in heat pumps goes on about microbore being the devil (true or not), and lots of people want to be told its an easy replacement, no radiator changes etc. Im looking at one for this reason, my home is almost fully plastered in microbore heating. i understand heatpumps can use microbore with the right setup, but im a green tech nerd!
@@sebaileyus8043 microbore here, no problem at all for heat pumps 👍
Hot radiators are just a sign of people accepting the status quo and not knowing that something better exists. 😉
Loved your commentary on the Fully charged show, in my eyes they have become the right wing of the electric world and some of the delivery actually puts me off, you deliver a balanced ‘down to earth’ view keep it coming.
Yeah, I appreciate what they have done and are doing, but i'd appreciate a little more critical scrutiny from them when meeting with manufacturers etc.
They have such a powerful platform to effect change though, i'd like to see more action as a consequence.
Just as a disclaimer I am a paying supporter of FC and SBS, with this out of the way, to say they don't have balanced reporting or are the 'right wing' view is a bit far . Do you regular watch their content? They often platform all kinds of heating solutions including but not limited things like Infra red. Robert in his own home doesn't use a heat pump. I think you need to do a bit more research. before throwing stones.
As mentioned at the end of your video EE and FC is a platform to raise awareness around things that don't require burning stuff. Buyers beware, you ned to do your own research and find the best solution for you. If you are going to invest money into your home or before you make any major purchase you should do your own research and then make your decision, you can't watch a 5 min video which features a single company in this case octopus and assume this is the best solution for everyone.
@@rajus0 yes I do watch them regularly I’m subscribed, and keep wanting to see what they put out, but as I said they are putting me off their content because ‘I’ feel they have swung too far to one side of the argument and I do not feel that the content is as balanced as it could be.
Also very often I’m hearing the same arguments put in a much more succinct way than their channel, I did not say that they are not getting the electric message out there.
It is my view, someone who is very much doing a lot of research into how to move our family to be more sustainable, and less polluting in the world. Your comment about how I should do more research is incorrect, but then of course no one else would know that.
I’m glad you pay to support them, and I’m glad you feel they are doing a good job, but in my humble, wanting to be much greener, opinion they have swung one way, right or left maybe that was the wrong analogy to use. I will keep on listening and watching their content, but as was stated in this video, don’t take all they say as gospel….
@@Gazmaz Thanks for your reply, I think that they share technology on their platform that is available , if the options are heat pumps, infra red and tepo electric boilers I think that is all they can share. it would be interesting if or when thermal batteries like Sand batteries or something else are fit for residential use I am sure they will promote those to. Part of it might be down to if they don't share large announcements in the sector like something octopus releases which is now the largest energy company in the UK people would complain they aren't doing their Job. Similar to if Tech blogs didn't discuss the latest iPhone we all now it is a few % points better than last year nd their marketing team give fancy names to standard tech, but it still gets reported . I would imagine to they have a shooting schedule and they will produce content that gets clicks.
If you watch other channels like Undecided with Matt feral, every few weeks it is the newest battery breakthrough that is going to change everything, often in the comments people say "not another battery video" but it gets clicks and people want to hear about that kind of stuff
I think apart from Heat Pumps, electric heats, infra red and these tepo boiler things I am not sure what other options there are. I consume this content fairly regularly. I guess it is limited what you can share and heat pumps are (for better or worse) seen as the next best alternative, especially in the UK where the UK has put public money behind them.
I am sure if the UK Gov put money behind infra red as an example we would see way more content about that.
What do you mean by they're right wing? Not arguing or disagreeing with you, I'm honestly asking. I watch Fully Charged as well and they seem pretty left wing/liberal?
I can’t see why you object to R290. For me as a consumer it is VERY MUCH about making installation easier, because the cost of reinstalling central heating hardware is too expensive. You might not care because you make big profits reinstalling stuff. We all want a simple boiler replacement. You make money from persuading us we can’t have that.
I don't object to R290. You might have missed the point of the video.
I don't install this kit and have nothing to gain by sharing this info.
Please see other videos on my channel for more context.
Do your own research.
You will see that R290 has only 2 benefits, lower GWP and higher max temp.
R32 will happily heat your rads up to 60 degrees, acting as a direct replacement for nearly every single boiler in the country if wanted and achieve the same COP as R290.
Both systems will be equally inefficient if run at those high flow temps.
High temp heat pumps are nothing more than marketing nonsense. By all means get a heat pump and run it at 60-70°c and then see how ridiculous your energy bill is.
If there isn’t a *loss* at lower flow temps then the wider range is only ever going to be good - the immersion has a scop of 1, so even if it’s only at 1-2 running at high temp… that’s still a benefit.
It does seem to encourage a “lazier” installation though.
@@UpsideDownFork Whilst I agree with pretty much everything that you said in the video, I also feel that you were too negative about it.
You correctly state that an R290 will do everything that an R32 will, and to the same standard, but then seem to devalue the primary reason for choosing why an R290 should always be chosen over an R32 given the choice - the environmental impact being 200x less.
I agree that the focus on the "high temperature" part of it is just meaningless marketing guff, and risks allowing poor installers to get away with shoddy workmanship, but if we're going to have 20m+ heat pumps then it's better that they're 20m+ on R290 then it is 20m+ on R32.
Everything else being equal, choosing the R32 option should never be the logical choice.
Better instead focus on what can be done to educate installers on what constitutes best practice for their installations.
@@michaelwinkley2302 agree 👍
Sorry if my point got lost in my waffle, it was aimed at the misleading marketing more than anything.
Point taken on the broader hyperbole on everything electric but they do excellent campaigning and raising of awareness so credit to them.
They do what they do and you do what you do, I.e. different to them but valuable in your own right.
On the cozy 6, have a lot of faith in Octopus and am considering getting that system installed, from my limited understanding, I’m getting the impression that buying into the Octopus ecosystem a step further would be a safe option.
Im currently on Octopus intelligent for EV charging and feel as though my transition is going in the right direction.
Admittedly, that’s based more on my gut feeling as opposed to your impressive advanced analysis.
Very true about EE. Thanks for commenting.
The Cosy 6 is an untested product. I'm in touch with 3 people who have them and so far still seem to have teething issues. More like beta testing than polished final product but at the price and the promise of further software development and integration, it promises a lot.
Fingers crossed they pull it off! 🤞
@ Yes, the beta stage of the cozy 6 has crossed my mind, this is the case with lots of solutions I’ve looked at on here in the green domestic energy market.
It’s all happening very quickly with a lot of competing options. I might hold off until the new while you and others do your stuff and come up with some conclusions. Of course there’s always going to be something new and better round the corner and at some point you just have to jump in.
Thanks again for helping.
Thanks for your videos interesting to watch I recently moved into a new house which is now about 6 months old and obviously has a new modern boiler but I've been looking at heat pump is octopus energy quoted me 1,350 my home is a new build 4 bedroom detached house
If you are looking to reduce your carbon footprint then you won't find a more impactful way to do it for relatively little money.
Are you aware of the F-gas phase down? A mass rollout of R32 heat pumps would be impossible.
I'm not advocating for mass rollout of R32.
I'm advocating for honest marketing and advertising.
Great video
I’m in the process of buying a air sauce heat pump from octopus energy
I’ve recently bought TADO V3+ WIRELESS HEATING & HOT WATER SMART THERMOSTAT along with
12 Smart TRV Thermostatic Radiator Valve
Which works great with my combi Vaillant bolier
My question is would all my
TRV Thermostatic Radiator Valves and wired tado receiver be all compatible
With a R32 Daikin heat pump?
Or would I just have to buy a new Tado receiver and stats again ?
Thanks Gary
They can be made to work but they will kill your heat pump efficiency.
Sell them on as a kit to someone with a gas boiler.
Running your heat pump as open loop as possible is the way to best efficiency and comfort 👍
Jesus I better break the news to mrs.
Thing is heat pumps are ok if you have solar and battery systems. Personally my cheapest quote so far is £5000 after the substacys witch is a lot, let alone for a basic solar system £7000 on top then factor in a new roof due apparently even though my roof has 40+yrs of life left both wining bids refuse to fit till i have a new roof even though they both say the roof has 40+yrs left and well exceeds any support needs, putting it down to it having old style felt. And I’ve had roofers inspect and there puzzled even a surveyor , both solar installers wear very reputable and highly recommended. And if i fitted a new roof it will be massively over £10k. Which makes it all very un affordable. Then i factor in if i just had a heat pump and using my forecasted savings of only about £10 a month £120 over a year and over the 25yr life span = £3000 saved witch dosent come close to paying for itself or even covering it’s replacement, then if you factor into the equation as you should servicing yearly service I’ve been quoted for HP £220 compared to my gas boiler £70… that wipes out any so called saving if not paying more. At the end of the day this is not suitable for all nor affordable especially with the economy going down.
Don’t get me Wong if you tick all the boxes and you can afford the price of entry it can work but there are a lot of expensive boxes to tick.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the forecasts. Mine said I would use 5000kWh in a year to heat the home and hot water, I used 2500kWh in reality.
Such a deadpan sign off 😂 👏
You must be new to the channel 😁
I forgot as usual to beg you all for a "like and a subscribe because it really helps the channel..."
Cringe.
😂
You've got to admit that low temperature heating is a barrier for people. People are strangely averse to minor radiator changes and that seems to prevent them using lower flow temperatures for their non condensing but labelled condensing gas boiler equally as much as a low temperature heat pump.
This is Octopus's angle. Installing brilliantly efficient low temperature HP systems is slow and bespoke and time consuming. We haven't got time for that. Where as a higher temperature system is easier to lob in with less changes needed.
Now the problem is that it gets a lower SCOP, and might not reach parity with gas heating costs as easily. The crazy gas to electricity price ratio we have here is the problem. 4 to 1 , where as lots of the rest of the world is 2 or 3 to 1.
Is it better to roll out a few perfect HP or loads of less perfect ones?
That's their pitch albeit I'm sure they explain it better than me themselves.
Well put.
The truth is, all of that can still be achieved by an old R32 Daikin "low temperature" heat pump. It can still heat those existing rads to 50 or 60 degrees.
I don't have an issue with Octopus rolling out heat pumps to the masses, I want to support that in every way possible. I just think the marketing surrounding it is disingenuous to say the least. They're not the only ones doing it as well. They're just an easy target because of their high profile.
“Strangely averse”? I was told a heat pump install would cost me about £40k for my house. That doesn’t include all the ripping up of carpets and flooring to fit new pipes and radiators.
When a new boiler would cost about £5k, there is nothing strange about being averse to the low-temp heat pump idea.
I was always told run the gas boiler flat out or at least 90% on its thermostat and use external controls to get the house temperature up quickly so the boiler shuts down to save energy. Of course others in house will say 'oh the radiators are cold, I'll click up the thermostat'. For the last several years I run the boiler at a much lower temperature setting, it runs much longer, the radiators are not as hot but the room temperature is much more even and we use less gas. I've increased the loft insulation depth and this has been another improvement, it wasn't the law of diminishing returns I thought it would be. As one shop says 'every little helps!'
Well done John, that's the right path you're on!
A condensing boiler is more efficient at lower flow temperatures (below 57c). A boiler operating at lower burner power will also be more efficient.
Cycling a boiler on and off very frequently is inefficient. This is why boilers now have variable gas flow rate rather than really old boilers that only had a gas flow rate of on or off.
The advice you were given likely applies to very old boilers that didn't have variable power output and weren't condensing boilers. The only optimisation you could make to them was stopping them cycling on and off by setting them to a high flow temperature.
Interesting comments, very helpful. Would be interested to hear more thoughts on infrared....we are trying to decide on infrared vs air-to-wet vs air-to-air solutions...and going round in circles!! 🙃 Infrared is never going to be as efficient but could be cost effective I guess if you have battery + PV 🤔
Infrared is known to cause damp and humidity issues in a domestic property due to it's targeted and limited ability.
I'm not totally against it as a supplement in bathrooms, occasional spaces etc but it can't offer the same levels or comfort or running costs as a heat pump system can, whether that be A2A or A2W.
We really need more places where homeowners can go and trial these different technologies to get a proper real world feel.
Having used IR for 4 months before our A2W heat pump came online, I will never go back to using IR in a home environment. Expensive and uncomfortable.
@@UpsideDownFork thanks for the reply, that's really useful to know. I too was a bit concerned about how IR could feel in the home. 👍
@@UpsideDownFork the thing is Infrared is the same as heat pumps, if it's not fitted and used correctly it will not perform to its optimum.
Infrared is actually extremely good at preventing damp if it's set up with the proper controllers and sized correctly. As to costs to run, yes it will be more expensive than a gas combi however again if it's set up right it's not as bad as you might think. ASHP or a combi has to heat up pipes, radiators then the air which rises when hot so you have to heat up more air before you get warm. Infrared on the ceiling heats you first but then heats the fabric of the building so over time costs fall if you manage it properly with smart controllers.
I've been looking into ASHP and IR for months and exponents of each say the other is a con! Who to believe? Well my plan is to go with infrared because that's affordable and can be implemented gradually as and when we can afford to get more. Once the installation (by a UK company that manufactures and installs it's own product) is complete with it's smart controllers then we'll see. In the interim I'll keep the gas c/h and supplement it with the IR panels until it becomes the reverse, panels supplemented by c/h. We'll probably reach a critical point where a battery is needed to use overnight cheap rate but that'll be a judgment call as to if and when. My personal reason for going this route is it seems to be the least disruptive and the least complicated to understand and operate. I cannot do all the mental tinkering that seems to be required to make an ASHP work, I've considered A2A but not keen on having big holes punched through my walls disrupting the air gap and causing damp problems (I won't have cavity wall insulation for the same reason). Although I'm sure I'd appreciate the aircon in summer, with my chronic health condition I wouldn't like the moving air flow, either the noise or the draft or is it draught, can't spell today, so that's off the table.
I need to look back to remind me of how you went about testing IR for four months but if you inadvertently acquired the wrong size and/or located them wrongly then you do a disservice to their potential use in a case like mine to pronounce them a con.
@@judebrown4103 the short version of our experience was that they were ruinously expensive.
We never ran them long enough for the fabric to heat up and retain heat for when they switched off.
I tried targeted heating only when a human was in the room and I tried leaving them on a lower setting for longer. Unfortunately neither option worked.
I haven't produced a video on this specifically as the company I worked with were great and they did agree to take all of the kit back and refund me.
The installer who I spoke with told me off the record that it is not uncommon for kit to be returned and refunded, so make of that anecdote what you will.
They only heat things in direct sight, so any obstructions caused the shade effect.
Comfort was not a major consideration at the time.
It's only in hindsight that I now see the MASSIVE comfort benefits of an A2W HP.
A well installed and commissioned heat pump will not need tinkering.
I wish you the best of luck and please report back after a winter with IR. I think in some limited scenarios they could be ok as supplementary heating, but I just can't swallow the argument of them as a primary source from my own experience. 👍
@@UpsideDownForkthank you so much for this comprehensive reply, really so helpful to know.
Who did you use, out of curiosity?
(It also explains why I can't find the video I could have sworn you made!😅)
I will definitely approach with caution, my house has small rooms and we don't like too much heat so I'm hoping those factors will help keep bills down. I will be careful to get the proper regulators too.
This year we changed the way we use our gas c/h from turning it down to 10° overnight then putting it up to 18° in the morning. Using this method we also found it often got chilly in the evening and we'd have to turn up to 20°.
We changed that to a set back temp of 17° overnight, which to our surprise wasn't too warm and turned up to 18/18.5° during the day. Interestingly we never had to turn it up in the evening this year despite some cold snaps plus our bills were not as high even with the price increase.
So this is what I mean by proper regulation of the use of heat, which I know you're aware of, but it's why I'm prepared to try to reduce our reliance on gas even if I can't eliminate it completely.
Its not going to be financially possible to start the change until September/October and I reckon the most we'll put in at once is three rooms upstairs so results will be of less use to start with. But I'll try and keep you posted.
Edit: I forgot to say that we will be mounting the panels on the ceiling to lessen the risk of heat blocking.
If the marketing bring some nervy people on board seems good. Also for the proposed £500 you can put it in try different flow temps see if it works with your system. If your scops not to your liking you can change some rads in future. Makes for a minimal initial instal and one less gas boiler.
Well said.
The £500 is highly misleading. On other UA-cam videos the Octopus lady says the AVERAGE price is £500. They quoted me over £4000 for a 3 bed semi which is 8 times more. Octopus then quickly called me (which was good) but they were unable to explain in detail the £4000. It seemed they are proposing to do a lot of unnecessary work in the property. The Octopus lady in video said the Cosy Heat Pump is for everyone. However the Octopus sales man told me over the phone that they will only install a heat pump if it matches the total heat loss from the property and they may refuse to install an Octopus Heat Pump but install a Japanese unit instead.
In some ways the Daikin is a better unit. £4k for a 3 bed semi does seem on the expensive side for an Octopus installation.
Just to add a little fact, i have just had the information through about the Cosy 6 and it has another problem.
It can't run on any microbore pipe!
Well that counts out pretty much all new build housing going up throughout the uk in the last 20 years and more.
Unless you rip out your brand new piping and probably flooring, carpets ect ect to fit a larger pipe you are absolutely buggered.
All this new ashp tech from octopus housing is complete junk unless you have an older house with the larger pipes.
My home is only 9 years old and i would love to get an ashp from Octopus as our gas combi boiler is not the greatest but after the information on here and the pipe issues i can't justify ripping apart my home of under 10 years for something that has been designed for a bygone age or just older house's.
Its a two finger salute to everyone who is being done over because they have gas in relative new builds.
£300+ quid to get a new ashp from octopus my big butt its not.
Consider the damage to my ceiling while they rip up the upstairs chipboard, everyone knows the plasterboard downstairs is going to crack and flake away as these new builds are constructed poorly.
Is octopus going to fix that, i very much doubt it.
I am surprised by this. Very surprised.
Do you have 8 or 10mm? Is your plastic or copper?
The Cosy 6 should be able to handle microbore just like every other heat pump can.
Do you have room for a buffer tank? That's what Octopus normally use for their installations and the thing that usually guarantees the correct flow rates for microbore pipework.
@@UpsideDownFork it's 10mm plastic, I have room for a buffer tank and I have had them visit twice to check and go into a detailed chat about it.
On the official data that has been sent to me it's clearly printed that the Cosy 6 is NOT compatible with a microbore system.
I am having a chat with them this morning to find out a bit more and get an answer to this.
The other ASHP that octopus offers does work with microbore so I will probably have to go back to that but I have serious doubts if it's going to run my heating and hot water sufficiently.
I have waited for a long time for the Cosy 6 and I now feel I have been strung along for something that won't work.
I am not best pleased 😒
@@davedevonlad7402 the Cosy 6 is an unproven unit, so I guess there is some risk attached.
The daikin units are widely used and well understood by most installers, even outside Octopus.
I wouldn't have hesitated to have a daikin units installed at our house, unfortunately it just failed the noise test by a single decibel!
Once you find out more about the Cosy 6 I'd love to hear more about it.
If you've got any of the documentation, would you be willing to send it to upsidedownfork @outlook.com ?
@@UpsideDownFork below is a copy of a paragraph from octopus that I have been sent.
" I've had an update from our Install tech team - they've told me that although you qualify for the Cosy 6, the higher flow rate of this unit can't run on your existing pipework that contains 'microbore'. Microbore is compatible with the Daikin unit but not with the Cosy 6. A re-pipe will be needed to be able to proceed with the new unit.
If we proceed with the Cosy 6 - we negate the need for planning permission but then have to address a re-pipe, to upgrade any microbore. I can assist with the organisation of this.
If we proceed with the Daiken (1st position) - your planning permission application is ready to be sent and paid for. We'd then wait for the council response before locking you in for an installation date. "
Edit: as the documents have our private information on I am not willing to send that but as you can see from a copy of a part of the response I got you can clearly see that the Cosy 6 will not run on microbore, I will update this if I get any more information from my phone call with them today.
@davedevonlad7402 interesting! We're in 2 year old newbuilt with 10mm microbore and Octopus is pushing us towards Cosy 6. Not convinced though on performance and heat pumps shouldn't be really run hot and fast, but lukewarm and slow.
I disagree, if you can hit that high temp without immersion heater. Also heat without radiator upgrades then its win win. More adoption. But still we need that drop in electricity price through green generation
Yes, lower efficiency is only going to work if the price gap between gas and electric is sorted. Otherwise running a heat pump at a cop of 2 just isn't viable financially.
It’s so people like yourself can make more videos 🤣😂
@@kennshearer526 that is the only reasonable explanation! 😂
Two hands on the wheel please.
@@murrayedington I'm surprised it took so long to get this comment! 😁
Looks like r290 is more efficient at lower temperatures. R32 is more efficient at higher temperatures. In the UK, a colder country, it looks like r290 would win.
My R32 should comfortably work to -15C.
One thing to consider though is permitted development and MCS 020 planning standards.
R32 units can be placed under windows, whereas R290 being propane, and flammable means these units have to be placed away from windows and doors to satisfy regulations.
That is not correct.
R32 has a lower evaporation temp, therefore will be more efficient and have better capacity at lower ambient temps.
Plenty of research available online about this 👍
@@UpsideDownFork thanks, I looked into it further and R32 seems to be the better option even though R290 is being push as the latest and greatest.
@@hano552 the performance gap between the refrigerants is negligible in our climate.
The GWP difference is substantial so I do support the phasing in of R290.
I just object to the marketing.
You're right
R290 is an environmentally better way
That's all
Thanks!
Why are you driving a car?
Multitasking.
I have an actual day job and 3 kids.
UA-cam is something I haven't really got time for but I try and squeeze it in 👍
Great waffle 👍
Thanks Lee!
Excellent video but over the top, more or less misleading, headline. I thought you were going to trash the Cosy 6 but of course you don't.
Ah yes. Thank you.
What climate emergency
@@kevinpalmer3340 it's very localized, usually it's just me and my wife fighting over the thermostat 😉
Change your click bate title please , most people won’t watch your video and just have the option it’s a crap product which it isn’t . Aren’t you supposed to be a supporter of greener tech n9t all this false news
Thanks for your comment and feedback.
Is this man fully in control of his vehicle? thumbs up for yes thumbs down for no.
My wife's dad was a driving instructor, so she reminds me often to keep 2 hands on the wheel!
@UpsideDownFork You supply great content but perhaps it's best not to do it whilst driving.