Initial Verification - Testing someone else's crap work
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2017
- A regular client of mine asked me to attend a site to assist with the initial verification for a newly converted apartment block.
Unfortunatley a couple of minutes in it's obvious that this installation is not suitable for certification.
with regard to the difficulty we experience when connecting crocodile clips to earth bars and neutral bars its about time for manufactures to shape them differently or at least provide a test point on them
Great channel im currently studying my level 3 and your videos are very informative. As someone new to the trade they are spot on, thank you. Haven’t looked at any other videos of yours yet but i hope they can teach me a thing or two.
Not sure of your goals for the channel but educating/ talking through all the testing etc is great 👌🏾👍🏾
Nearing the end of my apprenticeship and must say videos like this have really helped in my early years of the apprenticeship.. Thank you for the help!👍
Dear sir,from a fellow tester.a superb video.very concise clear and very well presented.keep up the great work and great videos.well done.
Watching sparky struggle to put the crocs on for insulation testing is a pain I am too familiar with 🤣. Great video!
Not done any electrical testing since passing my exam last spring and have been searching the tube for full and descriptive run through me in live situations. You have the clearest, and most understable approach Thankyou
Feeling more confident about tomorrow already 👍
I’ve got to say, absolutely love the detail, the quality of video and above all else the attitude to the trade. Wonderful, no nonsense and rightfully appalled by the quality of ‘work’.
Keep up the great work your almost at 10,000 views I have recommended your channel to my learners thanks GSH Electrical
These luxury apartments are about 10 minutes drive from my home, can guarantee they’ll be an absolute fortune to buy/rent, funny to see the standard of work! Thanks for the detailed rundown, going to come I’m handy for my upcoming 2391 later this month!
Love seeing it in the real world keep these coming, 👍🏻
A superb test sir.very thorough job.well done .keep up the great work and videos.I really enjoyed it.I love testing.
As an IT Engineer who does electronic soldering / motherboard repair etc as a side hobby, I can appreciate the pride you take in your work. I'll def be passing this onto my younger brother , who is an electrician. Keep up the good work, all the best!
Handy you here, is there a temp to melt solder but not burn the boards? I once burnt a board as had no temperature control
Best video I’ve watched in absolutely ages thank you!
Incredibly helpful and interesting. I especially liked the use of a socket for linking the L/N and L/E for testing the socket circuit instead of pulling the consumer unit apart.
Bulwul- I'd only ever use that method, if the consumer unit was a bit of a bird's nest and difficult to distinguish the legs.
only problem is sometimes if the boiler spur is in the ring main
Just a higher reading at boiler spur. Not a problem. Didn’t mention no earths needed to box now.
Watched a lot of stuff on UA-cam re Inspection and Testing but this is the best for "as it really is" rather than a test rig in a classroom. Thank you and keep up the great work
Very well demonstrated as always mate. Nice 👍🏾. I’ll be resisting my AM2 fault diagnosis as I’ve failed the first attempt. Just wondered if you could give us a possible heads up on some hints, tips and some knowledge of your own to help us out.? Much appreciated. Cheers.
Excellent video very detailed and informative helped me out massively keep them coming and thanks for sharing
Just found your channel - because we exchanged comments on one of John Ward's videos.
That was a very interesting video and raises a whole load of issues, in this case with the building industry. The very nub of it is 'accountability' and 'responsibility' - if you are the prime contractor you of course 'delegate' packages of work to sub contractors and with it the 'responsibility' to do it to spec. It does not matter how may levels of sub contracting that follow the 'responsibility' rests with the first sub contractor. However - you cannot delegate 'accountability' that is always latched to the prime contractor and cannot be 'slope shouldered'. At a practical level the installation electricians were clearly left to their own devices and were not supervised which is an abrogation of responsibility by the sub contractor and the prime contractor is accountable for allowing that situation to proceed unchecked.
The site project manager probably needs a couple of size 10s up his or her arse!
I am not an electrician - just a weary old professional engineer who sadly has witnessed similar stuff in lots of industries.
The interesting juxtaposition is that this work has presumably been done by trained, qualified and accredited electricians - yet many sneer and warn of anyone attempting DIY household electrics - no matter their background, education and experience.
Thank you for taking the time to put this together - I will subscribe and look at more. :-)
I've been told by several contractors that its still cheaper to get Romanians to install - then get fully qualified Brit to test & make-good / repair / replace sections.....?
I always use roundhead screws in metal back box's, stops the cables potentially getting caught on the sharp edge of the counter sink head.
your like a refresher course thanks for sharing your knowledge you should be teaching!
Really love your videos you would make a great teacher
brilliant work mate, clear & simple
Good video. I'm an electrician myself. Quite frustrating to see shody electrical work. If electricians aren't going to do it right don't do the bloody job at all. Find a nother trade to botch up. Looking forward to your next video.
Great explanation and clear guidance. Good job!
Excellent video well balanced I totally agree with your decision not to remedy. I've been in the trade 50+ years and as soon as I saw the holes in the CU and then the dual sleeved cpc's / roughly trimmed 2'5 cables in the sockets thought 'crap'. Also with my other 'hat' on as a qualified plumber, flexi's on the expansion vessels are not allowed unless supplied by the manufacturers. Anybody remember a British Comedy from the 60's called "A home of your own" except this installation is not a comedy and those responsible should be made accountable.
I wish I had this when I was at college great video. when doing the insulation resistance do you not have to disconnect the bonding cable?
Hello Andrew, when doing IR tests you want the earthing and bonding connected in case any of the live conductors you are testing are leaking to earth via that route and not the cpc.
A nice way to null out the plugtop test lead is to get a single unswitched socket on a ptrees box and link all the terminal out with some 6mm. All you have to do then is plug in your lead and null out the leads.
How would you go about conducting an R1 + R2 test to confirm continuity of CPC on a lighting circuit with multiple recessed ceiling downlights? (50+ fittings). This is in the instance of a period inspection EICR not an initial verification. Would it have to be case of removing each down light and removing the cover to the connections to probe on? This would be very time consuming and very likely causing potentially damage to decorations etc. I have thought about conducting R2 wander leader lest to outer casing however there is no continuity to bottom of the painted can fittings. Furthermore a wander lead R2 test would not confirm polarity nor functional test of the switch. Interested to hear peoples thought and how they would or have done in a similar situation.
Hi Ninja and fellow sparks. Other than properly gland off the supply SWA, what else could have been done to fire proof the board?
Hello ! I am from Poland and this video is a another useful as part of my preparation for testing and inspection exams. Thank you Sir !!!
Continuity of protective conductors including main and supplementary equipotential bonding were not carried out first. This is always the first CHECK before energising Not ZS and PSCC AT DB....
really interesting real world video, i am surprised that the designer placed the db in the tank cupboard.
real chance of a leak causing some problems.
is that a 2c swa cable sub main, what size is it ? i assume that a separate main earthing conductor is installed
great video
Wasn't there any low level spur controlled sockets for that kitchen ring circuit, my guess is that these would of had the highest R1+R2 readings.
You would expect so but in this kitchen all the appliances where wired to FCU's on the kitchen side, with the exception of the fridge which was of negligible resistance due to its length.
Are these boards amd3 compliant? As the cover can be left in the open position?? Grey area? I have often wondered whilst looking at them
Brill! It's great that you give loads of detail. 1 question though, is it the client that asks for the initial verification, ok 2, when and if the remedial work gets done, what's to stop them asking someone else to do the testing? Many thanks.
The video is lovely mate. Much oblige for competent people like yourself! Is there any chance of someone to accompany you on a few jobs to get into the skill more in depth?
Lincoln
As a novice its was good to see you ring test at the socket with figure of 8 and not the fuse board as all other youtube videos show it done at fuse board. Is this the best way ?? Also high earth r2 reading was well explained. Thanks for great video
My question is if its initial verification. How are you confirming everything in the tick boxes as you have not been there to verify this during installation. The only way I can see it being tested by a contractor coming in on another persons work when complete and energised would be an EICR. Then you would have no issues with things like IR as you do not need to test across load etc. I would personally go down that road list all faults problems classify them all give form back to main contractor for them to carry out remedial work. Retest and if all was rectified then issue another EICR with next date as 10 years or change of tenant etc depending on use.
Mmm... one wonders quite what's going on in the heads of the installers/ testers. One hopes that they're capable enough (or they simply shouldn't be installing), but it would seem that their work ethics are decidedly dodgy.
It takes little time extra to do things correctly rather that 'oh... it'll do', and they'd save themselves any grief PLUS their reputation as a conscientious firm would be intact.
As you can't/ won't sign it off (quite right too), it may mean they'll lose out on the next development by that building contractor. Once word gets round that they're shoddy, they'll wish they'd done it correctly in the first instance.
Thanks for the vid SN.
For your IR tests could you not just have dropped the volts to 250V for the circuits with delicate equipment connected?
HELLO. I just want to know what is the box under the consumer unit, and where is conected that socket?
hmm adaptable box what is in that little buggar.
Great video thank you for you help and guidance
Should you have locked off that main switch when testing bud, also , do the mains boards HAVE to be disabled hieght in a new build??
Thanks
ops, you've covered it in the next one, sry.
Nice video. With you conducting the ring final circuit test at the socket outlet then the cpc reading could be affected by parallel paths at the consumer unit .
My initial thought was that there was a parallel back to the board via the boiler pipework till I noticed that the boiler was on it's own circuit and it wasn't on a dual pattress with the ring. The electricians would have left me guessing had they not fessed up to it. Parallels are a wonderful troubleshooter.
Question: if, for example you have a DB like in these flats and the disconnection time is 5secs for a TN supply head, then does this mean all final circuits from that DB have disconnection times of 5secs also? And incidentally what would be the disconnection time for the feed supplying the DB from the supply head DB, 0.4sec for a TN supply?
Distribution circuits are 5 seconds and final circuit are 0.4 seconds
this is the UK?
Incredible how many things sparky's get away with until a decent one comes along, at least you and Thomas Nagy are decent and won't take up a job unless you know how to do it correctly and if you are out of pocket because you underbidded then you eat it and still do the job correctly.
Yeah 50 Hz....Losers!!!
24:15 isn't that socket close to the sink is there a limit on how close sockets are to sinks, some would be more worried about the sockets under the sink
There is a measurment in the regs i believe but general rule i work to is make sure you cant touch the tap and the socket as the same time....
Fantastic video mate ! Anybody saying that this is anal is no electrician. This a very useful learning tool. Thanks very much.
There's nothing wrong with the rear knockouts. They do not need to be sealed to comply with AMD3. You only need to maintain the correct IP rating on all surfaces. You're not trying to create a fire barrier
I'd agree with that, Schneider doesn't though on their literature within the consumer unit.
Lovely video Ninja, as perusal. However, I’ve got a question for you? I’m sitting the 2391- exam in a months time and wanted to build a rig board for testing before I sit the exam, but seemingly my tutors attitude towards the suggestion is as if they don’t want to help me in such manner! I still want to build it as my exam is on the 25 of February and would like to start testing and recording results in order to boost my confidence. Please help if you can. Just need to know how many circuits you would recommend me installing and if you’ve got a spec, please? Thank you
Lincoln
Why build a rig mate , just test and record your own fuse board where you live , 👍 when home alone safely!!! And carefully test and inspect the fuse board at your property / or a family member / friend 👌
nice double socket over the metal sink drainer is it for plugging in the toaster or kettle
danny wilby that’s suicide aid.
If you take pride in your work its enjoyable, as soon as you let the quality slip you loose pride in your work and the job becomes a job, not a passion or something that can be fun.
Id bin anyone 2minutes flat they leave that as their finished apartment. Also I never half ass the swa, I always gland both ends. Surface trunking the swa and gland on top correctly, not hide it like I see so many times.
do you know what the plug shorting device is called? they look useful
Plastic blanks in a metal enclosure, ho no, same as the plastic in side and that of the MCB and the cable, all made from plastic. The IP of the enclosure is 2X or 3X me thinks, so that is more than adequate, ie the seal around the front wont keep out fumes/fire, like the amendment states as a requirement, so ALL metal enclosures unless they are IP54 or greater are useless?
The enclosure is only supposed to minimise the escape of fire/fumes, in an attempt at delaying the inevitable, to allow escape.
you can short out L & N to IR , then use maintanance /function switches to isolate appliances, and IR, or IR at 250V
Single poll functional switching would then put the equipment at risk and also remove conductors from the test altogether. Functional checking can more suitably be verified with the R1&R2 check.
Can someone answer me this please?!
Regarding the cable that you rattle about in the wall - you said that it was not fixed/supported. How would one fix/support the cables in a wall.
If one was clip them to the stuck then it might breach the permitted cable route zones given in the building standards.
I am genuinely interested as I am an apprentice myself.
The cables are run before the plasterboard goes up....so they should be clipped to studwork when fitted
How did the building got powered?
Hello ninja.
Referring back to the megga Mft multimeter situation: there’s some on eBay which is already used, but looks exceptional. From experience, would you buy one from there or try and get it new?!
Links
Depends really. Is the seller reputable? If they regularly sell random tools then I would question if they were stolen etc, and I would never buy from them. Can the seller verify they are their's originally - do they appear to be an electrician? Is there calibration history available?
I'd always prefer to go to a distributor so I can return it if needed etc, but if the deal on ebay was too good to ignore then I would be tempted but ready to take the risk that I may get burnt. I'd never buy if I suspected them to be stolen.
My wife bought me a Kewtech KT64 off of ebay once, was all legit and the seller was an electrician. Equipment was in great nick and worked a treat, unfortunately the instrument was stolen from me.
Is having to crawl over copper pipes and a water heater to access the circuit panel acceptable standards there ? this looks very dangerous to me !
thank you, means a lot to a novice like me
Interesting video that I've enjoyed watching, surely the 'hidden' ring circuit JB must, in itself, be a cause for failure as I believe all mechanical joints are required to be accessible at all times for future maintenance purposes!
Nice and informative video. Finally showing a real world situation that today's electricians face when being asked to certificate other contractors work. To be frankly honest it probably represents about 99.9% of every sites position when it's time to test. Unfortunately electricians both as employees and for that matter employers are usually under great pressure to get the electric on as soon as possible so other trades and use there power tools. Of course this should never happen and electricians must extensively explain why an installation should not be energised before all appropriate tests are completed. As a side note I look forward to hearing if you actually got paid for you time on that day.
Keep up the great videos!
Thanks for the feedback.
I could have used your comment to pretty much describe this video, and don't worry, I already told my client that it's a pointless exercise before I went, I'll get paid either way. 😆
SparkyNinja Nice one!
Great video. I only have one criticism - you forgot to lock off the main switch.
Thanks for the video
Why did you use 2 lead high and not 2 lead low?
Why didn’t you use 3 lead low?
Would appreciate the reply as I can’t understand this. thanks mate
Just a lead configuration that was easiest. High current for scc tests.
Very Interesting and informative. However, the Polarity Testing seemed to be deficient, as no proof the wires were not swapped.
Two earths in one sleeve is one of my pet hates. I thought that practice had died out.
And twisting the earths I've seen a few present day "Electricians" who still utilise that precious gem.
@@joefrayling9263 Yep, friend's rewire was like that. Spark was NICEIC registered...
Did you know a 20mm brass bush fits a 13 amp plug perfectly for nulling your lead (niceic inspector showed me)
Nice one. Thanks. (nod)
Well I called bullshit on that spent ages finding one in back of van and ok... Fair play 👍
Ashley Rothery Love it 😄
That.. Or a 50p piece works quite well.
NICE tip sir!
Hello ninja
Some very good pointers within your reply! To be honest. I will take your advice and stick to a proper manufacturer, even though it’ll be expensive, but that’s despite the facts, as my goal is the be excel within the electrical department and maintain long term.
Many thanks. 👍🏾
I thought when you calculate the resistance value r1+r2 you suppose to multiply it by 1.20 to account for maximum operating temp of conductors 70 degrees c👍🏻👍🏻
I may be wrong and correct me if i am but the OSG figures in table 11 already have this correction where as the table in the BS7671 does not.
could u please list all the problems in this video and why it is a problem. i am not a native English speaker so i appreciate the help.
ur videos are very helpful in learning the details of all the lower level works as i am currently learning MEP design. keep up the good work.
Mate can you confirm if you need to have a specific qualification to do EICR in Scotland.. nice videos.. keep up the good work..
Yes you need your city and guilds inspection and testing
How did your client respond to your report? Did the apartments ever get signed off? Are you going to do a follow up video to this one?
I failed it. So I wasn't asked back. They probably found someone else.
Thanks for the video, very interesting.
Hi Ninja, because all the equipment had already been connected including lamps and down lights, would it be accepted on I.R to short the Live and Neutral and test against CPC? Great video's by the way. Many thanks.
Technically as the is supposed to be an inspection of a new installation, the inspection should have also been carried out during the installation, not just at the end. Therefore the IR test between live conductors should have been carried out earlier.
It isn't really acceptable to have LIMs on a brand new install.
MCBs are not metal so why would blanks need to be? Surely it's the CU lid doing the fireproofing?
SparkyNinja Great video. I was testing a property other day & I use the same tester as you - my IR test (testing individual circuits) was taking a real long time. Battery life ok - leads seem fine, I was getting 999 or 850ish. Guessing this was due to some long runs (it’s a very large property, with Fuseboard on one side of house) ? Recently plastered walls ?
R1 + R2 does not prove polarity. If some plonker connects the Line into the CPC and the CPC in the Line terminals then you still get a reading. You could be switching the CPC at the switch instead of the line. The only way to prove polarity in these tests is to perform an R1 + RN test to prove that the LINE is indeed the LINE connected and the switch switches the LINE only
Who the hell would connect the line to the Earth terminal and vice versa. Maybe you.
He explained this in the video when he said the R1+R2 test doesn’t prove polarity but the R1+RN does
need to redo your 2391 if you don't know Continuity done on R1+Rn and R1+R2 does confirm polarity there are a few exceptions, but mostly does if you have switched and retested (lecturer / 30+ 2391 courses)
the best way to test our installation is to do and respect the protocol at every stage... and the voodo power is to love our jod because we bring the light to the pepeol house and house is our every think
Not an electrician but aren’t those sockets in the kitchen rather near to the draining part of the sink.
Regs....300mm from sink...not drainer
why do electrician s from the UK do resistance testing so often?looking for loose connection s??
exactly. We use it to verify correct connections (polarity) prior to energising. We use it to trace circuits and we use to to verify circuit integrity.
Is that calculation doing cooker continuity right? Were'nt you suppose to multiply 20 meters by 2. 20 x 2 x 10.49 ÷ 1000. Unless you use wandering lead
What a crock!! Good you turned up!!
Hi Sparky. What to be an electrician but don't have any money and no experience. What do I do?
Aston Bright Find an electrician looking for an apprentice. Then you should be paid a low wage while learning.
my favorite convo debate do you really require a fan isolation switch local to bathroom ?
Yes as switching off for mechanical maintenance is required, and since most fan isolators cannot be locked off the person carrying out the maintenance must be able to see the isolators location (not necessarily the isolators themselves, but being able to see persons touching it). Turning off and locking off MCB will not do as only the live conductor would be isolated, also inconvenient as all lighting then off. Locking of main switch provides full pole isolation, but again inconvenient for everyone as whole house would be off just to work on fan.
thanks for the reply can you find the regulation in bs7671 , and doc f building regulation s i agree on the single pole isolation on a tt system but the main isolator could be used then on a tn system the earth would be deemed stable and not req double pole isolation then manu instructions would say to install isolator and fuse down most likely but are regs only state manu instructions should be taken in consideration,
To be fair about the fire rating of the dB, I was told by manufacturers that if it is provided with knock outs, then the board is rated fire proof. All the nonsense about fire rated gland for each circuit is not required. The swa not being terminated is a joke though
Hi....I wonder if you heard anything back regarding this job?....
When carrying out such inspection works...do you feel duty bound to report such poor work and blatant disregard for rules & regs etc.. by the installation contractor, to the powers that be, namely their scheme provider?
i ask because, who will prevent this sort of thing reoccuring...if nobody is made aware?
Also...I would imagine that the contractor you are contracted to...will be billing the original electrical installers for any, and all, remedial works and retesting costs.
I have seen better DIY installs...where everything was spot on....because the "DIYer" has no idea of what I am going to test / examine etc.. so they made sure everthing was to the regs ...
no one in the scheme providers gives a shit as long as they get there annual fee its all jobs for the boys.google how many prosecutions there are with unregistered work its a joke.
@@julieannecharters6132 it really pisses me off that as a graduate electrical and electronic engineer and a member of the IEE/IET for over 45 years, that I am no longer allowed to even touch stuff I've had to sort out in the past done by so called "professional" sparks ESPECIALLY tidying up rank awful birds nest consumer unit wiring! It makes my blood boil when I see stuff on videos like this that any dumb arsed but otherwise "competent" diy'er would likely cringe at too.
Calm down bob Lewis
I get it's good practice not to have 2 cpc in a single bit of sleeving, but considering the sleeving is a bit larger than a single cable and it being a ring what is the problem, least they're not twisted together.
The problem is when we carry out initial verification or periodic inspection, the sleeving will have to be removed to separate the conductors from each other electrically - it's just a faff!
@@SparkyNinja also on periodic, where you are not accessing every outlet, you may get continuity / apparent integrity, but loose connection to socket terminal, Zs should highlight this and good practice on EICR to Zs every socket outlet but paired up in sleeving is bad practice
good job master i really learn a lot from you ;) just please treat us as dump poeple and explain more details how and why cheers.
Situations like this is the reason why I am slowly hating being a spark or contracting in general. The amount of times I get asked to test others peoples work is ridiculous. Most sparks I know couldn't fill out a minor works certificate correctly! They just turn the circuit on and leave.
Situations like this is why I can't afford to be on the tools anymore.
@@SparkyNinja Did they not pay you for this inspection & test because you failed it?
I prefer to use the age old term, Zdb rather than saying Zs @ DB :-)
Can anyone tell me why having swa cable is a no, no to feed the consumer unit? Thanks
smartchip the swa isn't properly terminated.
@@SparkyNinja the swa is installed such that it cannot be pulled out of the consumer unit therefore it would only require a gland for earthing of the swa. If this is done at the other end, then the gland at the board end technically is not required. However, if the swa entered through the side, bottom, or top, where it could be pulled on where the cable could be pulled on, I would agree it would require a gland.
I the only one that noticed that the buzz spanned both sides?
Wow, that is so different from the states where don't test at all.
I am not completely clear yet. Were you contracting from a contractor, or were you contracting from the contractor's contractor, or were you contracting from another contractor's contractor's contractor? We need to know. We have to know. We are desperate to know. Because it is just that critical to the video. TELL US!!!
I know it’s probably a silly question, but could you not carry out a insulation resistance at 250V just to check it’s good?
BS7671 requires a 500 volt insulation resistance test to be carried out
can you improve the sound, thanks
Hi,
So what happens next if you've been unable to sign-off the works as you've not been present on-site during construction, would the electricians that installed the installation have to sign-off the construction of the installation as being in accordance with BS 7671 and yourself sign-off the inspection and testing of the installation?
Who knows, I submitted a list of information that needed to be remedied and that was needed for installation evidence, compiled an incomplete non-signed Amtech certificate and sent it in with my invoice.
Invoice has been paid.
No idea if these dwellings are occupied yet
Great video bud, such as good video for someone who is learning to test at college! Straight to the point and easy to watch
Hi SparkyNinja!
I have enjoyed your video.
I am hoping that you or other electricians here could explain me what is the path to follow for a person to become an electrician in the UK?
I am from Slovakia and here:
1. Start with a 3 year apprenticeship - finished with a final exam. Awarded with Craft certificate. The person at this stage is qualified but still unemployable as electrician.
2. Take the State's Health and Safety bureau's technical (electrical trade) exams. The person becomes Certified to work as electrician under supervision. Certification valid for 5 years.
3. After 2 years of proven track record , it is possible to take the State's Health and Safety bureau's technical (electrical trade) ''higher level'' exams. The person becomes Certified to work as electrician unsupervised. Certification valid for 5 years.
4. After 3 years of proven track record as Certified to work as electrician unsupervised, it is possible to take the State's Health and Safety bureau's technical (electrical trade) ''even higher level'' exams. The person becomes Certified to supervise other electricians. Certification valid for 5 years.
5. The next level is to get Certified as an Inspector. .
Only inspectors do the kind of work you are doing in this video.
How does the above compare to things in the UK?
Thanks
Proving polarity with only a r1+r2 test..... You need to do a r1+rn and get continuity with the switch in both positions to prove that it is indeed switching the line conductor. In this installation the switch could be switching the cpc, very unlikely but you need to prove otherwise, especially in such a shoddy installation. Other than that great video!
Yeah I always argued that's test sheets should include a column for r1+rn partially for the reason you mention, also so you can prove the neutral isn't broken before energising a circuit for live tests.