Finding The Perfect Forehand Arm Action - By Patting The Dog!?
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- Опубліковано 21 гру 2024
- Helping a video analysis client to improve his forehand by patting the dog! Creating space (patting the dog) allows you to transition from pronation to supination in a more gradual, stable, and reliable way. Hopefully the arm action demonstrated in the video will help you to improve your forehand technique and develop a more efficient stroke.
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What a great video !
Tom, your recommendation to square up the racquet and supinate from the pat the dog position has done wonders fixing multiple issues with this one tip. I’ve had multiple lessons from ex-ATP now national coaches who have not picked up on this error until you saw my video. If people want to save thousands of dollars on lessons given by someone across the court trying to adapt you to his/her style instead of working with you with what you’ve got, take lessons from Tom. HIGHLY recommended. Love your 98 Redondo Type C ProKennex. Favorite next to my 93!
This "pronate - separate - supinate - pronate" advice is very helpful!
THIS was so helpful. The separation was the key to my getting into the lag position smoothly. Thank you!!!
This is exactly the video I needed. Struggled with the same wrist complaints and the same forehand technique issues. Thanks!
... more informative the 2nd time I watched ... have discovered I was not pronating on the backswing
This video is spot on, I had the same wrist pain due to floppy wrist, and adding a little twist where racquet face partially sees the back fence during take back created a more repeatable and less painful fh in my case. This video confirms my solution. I thought the reason for improvement was that it allowed the wrist be free but only trough the axis it needs to go, yet the wrist is locked in another axis avoiding a bouncy wrist supination. It was guided by the circumference of wrist supination in extended manner. So shoulder supination can now do its work. It feels like carving, scooping motion where leg drive is more easily translated into a usable lag.
This is Tom's special limited edition "The ultimate FH knowledge." I'm speechless. It's so logical. Bravo maestro!!!
After months of trial and error along with similar ulnar wrist pain, I have basically arrived at the swing you are recommending in this video. Higher elbow on the take back. Relaxed grip. pet the dog before pulling racket butt forward followed by throwing the racket to meet the ball at contact. Catch the racket with the non hitting hand to complete the stroke. No wonder I have waited years to pick up a racket after seeing the trend to the modern forehand. It's complicated
The key to this pronation, supination with the racquet head rotating from pointing forward, through pat-the-dog, to supination, to contact is flowing through the parts of the swing with the proper timing. Bounce-Hit, baby, Bounce-Hit (with the racquet flowing, not stopping, through the backmost swing position on the bounce). Doing this effectively involves good ball judgement and footwork to be in the position to strike the ball correctly. By the way, I have watched and subscribed to many UA-cam tennis coaches over the years, but your videos have helped me more in a short amount of time watching them than any other videos I have seen, so thanks. I was especially helped by the one you made about footwork and hitting from a more open stance, thereby creating more of a coil to load on the forehand and backhand. My strokes' speed and accuracy have increased significantly in a very short time as I was able to use the techniques in your lesson almost immediately. Helps to have a coach who gives tips that are really effective. Thanks again.
I love the bounce-hit!
Funny how this has reminded me of a trick that I used to do when I had a heavy racquet, but forgot about - and it still works to get in to that supination position I've realised.
I imagine that on my take-back, I can feel the racquet "drop like a pendulum" when it reachs the 12pm position down to 3pm. That momentum and the feel of it hitting 3pm is the trigger to pull forward freely.
Feels like I have time and less likely to muscle it too.
Thank you for identifying the pronation-separation-supination-pronation sequence. I've struggled to describe that gap between the backswing (pronation) and getting into the slot position (supination). I would stress the importance of having the racket head above the hand and tip of the racket pointing towards the net during the separation phase. This increases the racket lag in the next phase, providing that whipping effect.
Super set of videos. Not many coaches teach the correct hitting arm position.
This is exactly what I was struggling with. Thank You!
Thinking about the "pronation, supination, pronation" sequence created the biggest breakthrough in my forehand in decades. Great instructional videos!🙂
Wish I’d seen this 6 months ago! Just coming back from a long wrist injury exactly as described by your student. Because I missed out the quick pat the dog movement and went too floppy 🤦♂️ Thanks v much!
Very helpful in connecting the pat the dog with the lag. Thanks
Great vid. I have a very similar problem. I concluded it’s from growing up with a swing path way too horizontal and not enough loop. If you look at the path of his hand it’s almost straight forward once he commits to the swing. The loop of the racquet is coming from the wrist action. I think if he follows the tips in this vid and also thinks about getting his hand to loop way under the ball and then low to high it will improve also. Worked for me but I still get into the same old habits of a wristy loop.
I tried it myself and i very much like the pronation idea of the wrist at the beginning of the stroke, brilliant
Thank you!!! This video just answered the question I posted in one one your other videos yesterday regarding the transition to lower the arm. It would be even more helpful to understand the timing of these sequence in relation to when the ball left the opponent racket, crosses the next, bounce, and at the impact point. Hope you make that video soon :-)
One option that is often overlooked is the Agassi forehand.
Agassi takes a nice circular backswing and "pats the dog" near the top of the loop. His strings are about 45 degrees closed.
If you watch the Macci "pat the dog" video, for some reason, Macci is fixated on the Federer swing, and severely *abbreviating* the backswing to the point where Fed is petting the dog on his right side (unit turn, immediately followed by elbow extension and petting the dog at 5 o'clock). With strings closed 90 degrees and pointing down. Very linear and non-circular.
To my mind, this is completely unnecessary.
Instead, consider the Agassi style. "Pat the HORSE" at near the top of the loop.
At 6 o'clock. Do not abbreviate like Fed. Do not point strings down. Halfway closed is good enough.
Consequently, with the Agassi style, you will not have a severe flip as exhibited by Fed.
You will rely more on external shoulder rotation and internal rotation rather than the supination and pronation
seen with Federer.
Making the "C" bit larger will help. I also had "whippy" racket loop. When I focused on making the "C" larger, it made the transition gradual. i.e. gave it a "bit extra" time as you mentioned.
For me the separation tip has made a huge difference I feel like my arm was fixed before and it made it much harder for me to get it in the slot in the right position to hit the ball wherever it’s coming.
This really helped me. I was definitely focused/getting stuck in the pat the dog, followed by a pulling action you talk about. The throwing motion, featuring the supination, is much more effective to me. You can really get the feeling of throwing the racquet head into the ball. Great thoughts here. Your tip about separation/a little more elbow extension prior to the supination, is a good thought. Someone with a violent sidearm throw action like Sock and Kyrgios may bypass this a bit.
Tom, thank you so much for the great video! I’ve tried this myself after watching the video, and helped me so much! This has improved my technique to be a better player. I’ll continue to watch your videos weekly and great job! 👍
Awesome video. It depends on the incoming ball but the pros always prepare early and get into the slot slowly with loads of time. Sounds easy but they can only do this because they can anticipate when & where the ball will be at their contact zone. We amateurs wait too long and get wristy because we can’t anticipate the ball trajectory and speed nearly as well so we end up rushing the stroke.
Thanks for the video.
This is very valuable lesson. Thanks a lot!
Wow, I do the same thing as Mark and have the same pain
Great stuff. Could you do a video on how to do your pronation with a straight arm? Particularly how to differentiate between the tight arm that you showed in this video and the pronated straight arm.
Will do!
I think the big difference is whether you supinate prior to starting the forward swing as you and I do or you delay supination until the forward swing begins. You’ll get a bit more lag and snap if you delay supination. If you supinate early you can get full speed with a longer swing and have a more consistent racquet face orientation. That breaks down when an opponent can take away your time. That’s pretty rare in my age group, 65+, maybe only when playing Glenn Busby who seldom plays in the US. Even so, I’m trying to get to the delayed supination, not because it is necessary, but because I want to.
Very interesting. So would somebody like Jack Sock be the ultimate in delayed supination?
@@mayabergom Not really. Almost every ATP player with the exception of Del Potro and a couple others delays supination until the start of the forward swing. Delaying it longer doesn’t help. It was amazing to see how well Del Potro could handle pace and spin with that long swing that he used to generate pace. The delayed supination is getting more common on the WTA but hasn’t always been necessary as they’ve tended to have less topspin so the ball didn’t jump on them as much giving them more time.
@@marktace1 Interesting. Thanks. I LOVED Del Potro's forehand.
@@marktace1 Giles Simone as well
Very good, that’s clarify a lot
Funny I was thinking pro sup pronating my forehand and getting more power since a few weeks ago… because I was trying to replicate the amazing power I was getting from my one hand backhand by pronating on prep and then supinating into contact.
Oh ya. I got something out of this. In fact - it's brilliant. Going forward you might emphasize what the forearm is precisely doing during "pronation" and "supination". These are terms from anatomy class and not everyone has been there.
That’s an interesting issue your student was pointing out. My two cents is to follow Rick Macci’s approach. To not think about being the racquet back but instead two bring out to the right side (for a right handed player) and just slightly pronated. The the natural swing will bring the racquet first closer to the body, near the right hip, then the supination with the forward “sidearm throw” or stone skim being the racquet back then forward, lag and “snap,” in one motion. I think check points are less helpful than learning paths / arcs and motion. Out and away (5:00pm/5:30pm) to down and close to the body @ supination then back away again at the stone skim-this gives a path to trace and a motion to execute.
*bring not being. Skip the stone. Sidearm throw. That’s the point.
Macci is the king of positions rather than fluid motions. Not a fan.
@@TomAllsopp I guess what I'm recommending is marrying his 5:00pm position (no take back) to your stone skim. I feel so many things can go wrong when people try to take the racket "back," including losing the feel of the weight of the racket/tip as it falls.
racket spelled like mafia racket i guess ; )
Great video. In my observation there's no need to bring the elbow way up and then have to come all the way around with the arm and wrist. it's helpful to bend the elbow at least 90° as you're taking back so that you can then unleash it as you pull forward in supination but bringing the elbow upward just wastes energy and puts more strain on the shoulder.
@@MichaelDamianPHD you’re involving the shoulders by doing that. I think that’s important
@@TomAllsopp It makes sense to me that you advised the man to make the movement more gradual instead of all at once. To my eyes the other trouble seems to be that the man allows the wrist to be more limp there at the 2:58 mark, than you do at the 3:48 mark. If he's allowing the wrist or racquet to droop there, it won't feel solid.
In the man of the example he did more Del potro's technique is that right¿¿ I think yes
Can you talk about taking racket back early, this is the biggest problem I have against players with lot of pace.
Not sure I can get into that same "slot" position (racquet strings facing the side) using my grip, which is more extreme SW. I tried and it feels forced. I'll have to video my FH and slo mo and see what I am doing there, but I suspect the strings still facing a bit more down coming out of the pat the dog part of the swing. I have the same take back as show in this video though.
The issue with wrist pain seems to be his rushing through the supination stage by using his wrist. Here is another fix without losing whippiness:
- Intentionally prolong the supination stage by starting the forward swing much earlier.
- Think of external/internal shoulder rotation instead of supination/pronation to avoid engaging in wrist movement.
That helps alot!
Thank you for this video. But when I try to do what you said to do I’m late on my forehand and I don’t turn my shoulder
I have been struggling with this for a long time and the more I think of getting my prep done the slower and more stiff I get trying to get my racquet in the slot. I also find that in this confusion my racquet is too far from my body and I am hitting the ball late . I unable to transfer my weight to my front foot and the shot is too wristy. I’m rated 4.0 and can usually get by but not when the ball comes hard and fast to my forehand.
I have a two handed backhand and it is so much more consistent with the shoulder turn and knee bend and contact.
Sign up to my video analysis. I’ll sort you out!
Hi Tom. All this stuff with ATP forehand or next gen forehand or name it as you like takes a lot of time to practice. Looseness is the main factor but when you loose you lose accuracy and vise versa. But you get really effortless stroke in return. Nice lesson. Good luck
Loose often causes control problems. Smooth only ever has upside!
Smooth, loose, timing, cenetic chain are categories of advanced tennis. I like how you explained difference between ATP and WTA forehand from the point of gender structure (never met any explanation before). Man walks like a bare, woman like a penguin (my animal interpretation). Good luck, Alex
At supination fase your racket should more relaxed that means the racket face should further below your wrist
I’m wondering if that ‘separation’ or extending backwards could have another benefit: the further back the racket at the beginning of forward swing and it becomes more of a pull rather than a push of the racket towards the ball.
I certainly wouldn’t want to pull into contact. It’s not the correct action IMO. Some players can do it but many players will have issues if the pull.
@@TomAllsopp
Tom, imagine pulling the handle forward, wouldn’t that cause the racket head move back/lag nicely? At lower levels people tend to hold the racket tightly and push the the whole arm and racket as a single firm unit towards the ball. They don’t want to lose control of the racket head in a way. I believe it’s an intuitive but not optimal way of swinging the racket.
Great video Tom! Can the "separation" part of the stroke also be considered as a "mini-loop" or "mini-C", rather than "pat the dog"? Internal feel wise, a mini loop promotes a smoother stroke compared to pat the dog.
Yeah I prefer the loop. Kinda what I do.
Good point
I like your work but what is wrong with Del Potro fh who is clearly bringing the racket circular back and getting into the slot is a natural consequence of the knees and the hip wanting to go forward and the racket lags behind as a result of the kinetic chain.
Nothing
same issue here. I accelerate from the preparation directly into the supination because I am late for the ball. This messes up my swing, it become floppy and inconsistent especially for the waist level balls. On higher balls I can get away with it. In a pressure situation, I do not know to shorten up the swing. Maybe you can do a video about that Tom. Thank you.
I have not seen your swing, but you might be using too big of a loop in your backswing. Trying making a skinny "C" shaped swing instead of a big, looping "C" shaped swing and practice timing the entire, flowing swing so the racquet is al the way at the back of the loop as the ball bounces your side of the court and you say "Bounce." Then continue the flow of the loop with swinging forward and say "Hit" as your racquet strikes the ball just in front of your racquet arm hip. Try some drop feeds to yourself before working with a coach or partner. Say "Bounce" on the ball bounce and "Hit" when you strike the ball in front of your hip every time. Don't just think it. Soon you'll be doing it in matches without having to say it.
Try rallying in the service box with a smooth coordinated swing that is appropriate for a shot over a short distance. Use a bigger swing from the baseline. Same concept applies for dealing with a fast balls or hitting more aggressive shots.
@@ReidVV I do not have a large backswing. When I rush I tend not shorten up the swings making a funky loop, so timing is the essence. Appreciate your help. I will try it out.
@@TomAllsopp I'll definitely try it out. I am always rushing because I think I will be late to the ball. I am not moving actively enough. When I get the right timing it is all good. Thanks Tom!
My question is why is Mark hitting with his right arm but in the home video he is using the left arm?
Hi Tom,
I like how you broke this down using the terms. I have just gotten this supination part of the swing. An instructor I see in group lessons says to come straight forward in the supination part and then move the racket up to create topspin just after contact. He says this will still impact the ball as it is still on the strings. Do you agree with this and if so is there a way you could phrase this to help me get it. Perhaps pronation separation supination and pronation up over the shoulder?
The whole pronation, supination, pronation thing can be a bit cyptic, even though those are the correct terms for the proper rotations used throughout the whole swing motion. It may be easier to think if making a skinny, or a little squished down, letter "C" shaped swing while ever so slightly closing the racquet face as you flow through the back of the "C" shape and up toward striking the ball, then following through up and over your opposite shoulder. By "slightly closed racquet face," I mean with the top edge of the racquet ever so slightly tilted forward. You can practice this by drop feeding yourself over and over until you get the feel of it and see your ball consistently clearing the net the net by a good margin and dropping into the backcourt before can them move on to hitting live ball feeds from a coach or a partner.
@@ReidVV Your feedback is extremely helpful!! Thank you 😊. I actually have a habit of hitting the ball very low and my racket would be pointing more down and open so now I’m focused on making contact higher up and not opening the face. This idea of using a slightly closed face in the back end is going to be an important part in the puzzle for sure! Mine was vertical in the back causing it to be open on contact.
@@dawng7270 @reidVV yes the PSP thing is not an easy swing thought. Just try to creat a small and smooth loop, brushing up the ball. I wouldn’t say doing something after contact will help to create topspin. Brush up the ball through contact.
@@TomAllsopp That way of looking at it works for me! Greatly appreciated 🤗
Well… so the “pet the dog” position seems to be a good one, since it’s just a temporary step towards the pronation, not turning into a anchored position, right?
Yeah. It just happens
What does TPA mean? Are you in Tampa FL?
My initials. No, Alabama
@@TomAllsopp I'm guessing you moved. Didn't you use to be in Northern California - and the Philadelphia area before that?
I'm wondering if reverse engineering isn't the way to go...when the beginning of the swing has a "flaw" or it isn't ideal, usually the end of the swing is impacted. If you start practicing from the contact point to the follow through and then the "lag" position to the follow through then from the initial turn position to the follow through and finally from the start to the follow through...maybe it will be easier to make a change. To break a habit, you gotta either break the current feel (very hard to do) or create an entirely new feel...going backwards might be easier to create a new feel. I prefer that method because when I go to the courts intending to work on developing a monster kicker or to add 5-10 mphs, my current feel will get in the way. I have do something completely unique...so I'm not really working on my serve as much as I'm adding a new serve to the toolkit.
Changing actions is not always difficult. Push, pull, throw, swing etc are all actions we are familiar with in every day life. This helps to creat different feelings hitting the ball. Breaking down the stroke too much can sometimes make for awkward and rigid movements.
@@TomAllsopp You're probably right about the awkwardness of breaking it down...in golf, 10 years back or so I practiced, with great results, swinging from the top of the swing...but it is a different game and the object of the golf swing is usually to max out distance whereas you are trying to control the tennis ball...to bring it down sharply in many cases.
One of your serve videos really helped me supercharge my serve, which has always been a strength, into an atomic weapon. It's the video where you have the student hit an underarm slap that is meant to send the ball a country mile. In truth, that's the serve motion but on a different plane. I've been using that motion to warm up...blast the ball underhand from the baseline to the back curtain (as long as there is nobody else on court). Using that same mentality, I've been thinking of other ways to improve at the weaker parts of my game.
On the backhand, I was getting too concerned about my feet and stepping in and the stroke always felt awkward and forced. Instead of trying to fix that, I just decided to change the feel to what amounts to either a left hook in boxing or an upper cut (on lower balls). I'm starting to hear the shotgun blasts I used to get in college! I guess what I'm getting at is sometimes if you look at something unconventionally, like the underarm country mile blast, you invent a new feel that is better than the one you were hanging onto...
Can you demo a high sitter put away forehand? I think with your technique, you don't have that shot
excellent video...just what I was needed
(insert expert advice comment here with a bit of praise)
I have found the only way to get rid of the giant wrist U motion your client is suffering from is to drop the arm down lower closer to the body snd place the racquet on the hitting side so the racquet is flat. As the hips pull the racquet will flip back. Yea pat the dog is close but it’s not a perfect analogy. Took my a year snd a half to figure that out.
I think thats because mark use semi western, and tom use eastern
Rick Macci teaches the "pat the dog" position because it isn't intuitive. Very young kids will almost always take the racquet back and then supinate way too early if left to their own devices because they lack strength.
That said, I prefer your approach.
No normal person knows what pronation or supination means. Not being critical, but might help in coaching
Tennis players who watch UA-cam videos will probably know. Or they can watch my other videos to find clear a explanation.
Luke, these terms are used regularly on UA-cam tennis videos, and we don’t need to be exercise physiologists to understand such simple concepts.
Pet the dog is fine to give as a tip depending on the person and his specific process. The problem with this individual and with 95% of recreational tennis players is that from the lock in position (if people even get there) their ARM initiates the forward movement to the ball, IN STEAD OF THE HIP leading this forward movement to contact. People hit way to army. You are making it way to difficult with pronation and supanation. That's not something people can feel. Get them to feel that the hip should initiate the forward movement and most of these issues will dissolve by itself.
Why do you assume people can feel hips more than arms? I think the hip is one of the most difficult parts of the body to focus on. But everyone naturally does it when they skim a stone across a pond.
@@TomAllsopp Exactly so you can make them aware of using the hips. But first explain why letting the arm initiate is not preferable (and actually harmful) and then show (video) and let them feel they are indeed initiating the movement with the arm. With my students it is often a real game changer.
@@sergiosimbula Actually I can feel pronation and supination on my forehand quite well! Allsopp's one of the few who talks about the forehand that way and it's been a big game-changer for me. Of course your point about hips is well taken, but Allsopp has videos on that as well...
@@TomAllsopp TBH, my hips don’t open when I skip a stone because I do that with a closed stance. The key for me, who learned in the wood racquet days, is to stride a bit more open to free up the hips. Even so, I never consciously initiate the forward swing with the hips, it just happens.
@@marktace1 sounds like you’re doing it wrong
You are supinating when you are lowering the racquets.....its earlier than the pros
Not earlier than Agassi
@@TomAllsopp interesting...let me check agassi....but the longer you hold off supination...the stronger the pronation i believe
@@TomAllsopp ua-cam.com/video/EB2vGIc5oPQ/v-deo.htmlsi=S0HCT47m_EOqSGdC
@@TomAllsopp you are wrong ..from 0:13 to 0:27 agassi is not supinating....he is going to pat the dog...his racquet is more perpendicular because of his body angles....he is still going for a pat....
Unlike you....from top to the bottow of the swing you are actively doing something with your right arm...you are placing the racquet into the slot.....typicall wta or junior fh...if you dont see this you shouldn't be coaching.....you have the slower 1,2,3 rythm ...not the explosive 1,2 rhythm
New term for this "Brushing the dog" ?
What i really found that has incresed my forehand consistency , on top of your precious hint, is that the real swing is across the body not from back to front. The only part that goes forward is in the initial swing from the take back, but at the time of hitting the ball pronation Must have been initiated. Not after, just before contact.
问题是销量赶不上产能的增长，特斯拉，所以不断降价，您不能视而不见呀！
Let’s be honest, the delayed wrist extension thing is almost worthless and only causes poor strokes and hurt wrists.
like
There is nothing on that ball you hit
There’s enough. But thanks for your concern