I think Ned might have realized that it was better for Robert to think that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna instead of letting him know that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, Lyanna had literally spurned Robert. It's not like he actually knew Lyanna, he was just in love with the idea of her. He had taken everything he wanted in a woman and projected that onto Lyanna. Like how he says "your sister would not have shamed me like Cersei does" to Ned. What did Cersei shame him about in that instance, she just asked him to not participate in the tournament, which was probably for the best (nvm what Cersei's motives are). Robert just wanted a woman who would look pretty and worship him, go along with all his BS. If you think about it, I get that Robert was aggrieved by Ned's loss of his family members during the war, but what he took so personally was that his fiance was taken from him, and that's literally why he waged a war. In Jaime's words, it was over a .... literally. So how would this person react when he finds out that he was spurned by the girl who he expected to be head over heels for him? This was a nobrainer for Ned. He loved his friend and all but "love cannot change a man's nature"
@@DavidLightbringeryou’re doing an amazing job. Even the paid promotions are funny. Yours is my favorite ASOIAF channel ;I feel like you cracked the code and I like your predictions.
The whole of the first book can be read as Ned's arc of falling out of love with Robert. I think Lyanna is way smarter than even LmL gives her credit for. To be so clear-eyed at 14-15?? Ned needed a couple more decades to figure it out (: But seriously, AGoT describes a whole roller coaster of a Bromance - from childhood bonding, brave coming of age, falling out for the first time, coming together again, living apart while keeping an idealized memory of your bro, getting back together, disillusionment at last and a big explosion, followed by a moving deathbed farewell 💔
2:13:00 The one point about Robert's size that y'all leave out is he is the only character in the book that GRRM leads us to feel may have been able to match the Mountain's strength...when he was younger. A pimp slap, no. Pimps don't like leaving marks because bruised girls don't bring in more money. Evil men don't want to look at them and good men are reminded that they are human and don't want to pay for them. Had the slap been a punch it would have broken her jaw.
Is their any chance at all that what truelly happened at the TOJ was a nissa nissa analog? Ie Ned used dawn to perform a caesarean on lyanna - which then either imparted some magic into Dawn (Ned sacrificng his 'love' lyanna) orrr alternatively by cutting jon out of ned's beloved sister was he literally "forging" John who is lightbringer himself I think this goes against most logical theories, just something interesting I thought of
Oh, my god! Cry of anguish and extasy that left a crack across the face of the moon? It could be a pregnant belly. Her blood and soul went into the steel, that is the child!
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783I’ve always been so confused about that “anguish and ecstasy” thing. What an odd way to describe it. GRRM must have just wanted an easily identifiable motif that he could repeat throughout the story right? No, it really makes sense they’re talking about childbirth there.
There is a Chance that Jon isnt Aemon Targaryen or Aegon or viseriyon or whatever but that she named him Brandon Targaryen that would really fit with him Being the child of ice and fire aswell as her wolfish Nature
On parenting I think Cat is the one who failed to prepare her daughters and not Ned. Because of the times he was more concerned with the boys, a good example of this is how he reacts to Rickon being afraid of the direwolves, also how he trained Robb and Jon to lead men.
I agree, it does seem like Ned was making an effort to parent the boys, in the best way he saw fit, teaching them the lessons they needed to lead in the North. But Cat isn’t shown teaching the girls much of anything. She forces Aria to partake in the same lessons Sansa does, making sure they have the correct “accomplishments”, but she didn’t do *anything* to prepare Sansa for court! And it’s ignorant af of her to think Sansa wouldn’t end up at court, or the very least, married off to someone in the south; she was never staying in the North, so why didn’t Cat talk to her about what to expect when she left her home?? Cat was focused on her boys only, even before Bran’s fall, and I think it’s because the “babies” were boys. Idk Cat as a character had a lot of failings, and people seem to focus on just how she failed with Jon and starting the war, but she was fucking up long before that.
Cat is also the one that does all these desperate things “for her family” but the things they do actually get her the opposite of what she wants… she’s the catalyst that keeps pushing the progress of much of the story on Westeros, either thru her actions or the actions she pushes other towards. It happens to her literally every time and several times she laments that’s she not with her family keeping them safe, she’s trying to keep them safe by pushing others to basically take preemptive measures. Sending Ned south with the girls, pushing the girls into the court, pushing Arya to be a lady, pushing Sansa to joff, pushing Ned to send jon to the wall, pushing jon away from her family, pushing Petyr to help Ned, releasing Jamie pushing rob to war, pushing him to cross the twins, pushing the Baratheon brothers towards good sense and honor and peace… etc etc etc… it goes on and on, it all blows up in her face and yields the opposite of what she wants, and often times it leads to very negative outcomes, not just negative to her and her family but also just bad “for tge realm” in general … I’m eager to see if the trend continues now that she’s undead, it makes the whole brianne/Jamie thread quite interesting, it coukd go many different ways, but its certainly not going to go the way cat/stone heart wants, at best (for her) she gets to kill Jamie, but that’s not going to happen, Jamie has more to do and it doesn’t match his arc, brienne has EVEN worse dark times ahead of her before she can get peace/redemption, cat can’t get the girls back, they’re not under the control of any she can even affect and cat is gone anyway, I think stineheart only seeks vengeance against her foes, so I’m guessing she will make herself the foe of those she loved mist in life…so they’ll be the ones how have to kill her, likely Arya (I hope, Arya is a bad ass!)
I wonder if Baelish believes in the Harrenhal curse? As he's never set foot in the Castle. Though as far as I can recall, Janos never did either; and it didn't save him.
This interpretation of the heroic Azor Ahai corresponding to the Last Hero and the villainous Azor Ahai becoming the Night's King is spot on, and is so inline with one of the themes of ASOIAF, the human heart in conflict with itself And it reminds me of that epic line from Jaime, "That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead." This stream was very good, some of the best symbolism from GRRM and the best analysis from you.
1:04:26 - "swords rising and falling as they closed in around him." Why does this sound so Other-y? Isn't there a similar scene in the book?? It's like ritualistic killing more than anything
missed the live so just stopping by to show some love - just the other day I stumbled into that old order of green hand video on this 😂 was pretty garthed up for it tbh and need to get my train back on the tracks hahah. thanks fellas!
Hello David, thank you for being that kind of guy! As I have two sons who think like you, and it would break my heart if they did not. I have been out here listening to you since 4 years into "Game of Thrones". I should have THANKED YOU before now.
Let's say N+A=J, the quote from Ned "See Arthur would have killed me if not for Howland Reed" I could see Howland Reed offering to marry the "dishonored" Ashara to appease TSOTM wrath. Reed is a lord worthy enough to marry her and he promised to keep the secret. I like the idea of those 2 being able to verify ALL the secrets of what happened and they're together in a castle that is near impossible to find
Here's some Weirwood net symbolism i just found while reading the first Tyrion chapter in Dance. He's drinking and wavering in and out of memory, so, the weirwood dream net. He's remembering killing Tywin and then "descending the ladder to -- glowing embers in the mouth of an iron dragon." The ladder is a symbol for the axis mundi, hence Jacob's Ladder and angels going up and down. And its interesting how Jacob is referred to as a worm, going back to the wyrms and dragons in the bible. Where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched. And here we get fiery coals in a dragon's mouth at the base of the ladder, Nidhoggr. And then it says that red wine drips down his chin and onto his "soiled tunic". The red dornish wine dripping down his chin being red weirwood sap and his "soiled tunic" being a tunic made of soil or dirt. Sorry for it being off topic, iust wanted to share, especially how the weirwood net relates to the experiences within the mind ie memory and imagination. The dragon's maw also being symbolic of the core of the Earth.
Jaime vs. Ned is definitely a foreshadowing of the battle at the Tower of Joy. And Arthur Dayne must have been stabbed in the back...or the leg...or blow darted. I think it is is more likely that Ned and Arthur had a one vs one and someone on Ned's side interfered and it turned into the King's Guard being slaughtered against Ned's wishes. But the King's Guard didn't go down without a fight. There's no way there were the only three there. I imagine the tower would have been garrisoned with at least a squad of common. I imagine the conversation going on between Ned and the King's Guard to be more like this. "I looked for you on the Trident. Derry fled to Storm's End with the Queen and prince? Why are you not there to protect your prince?" "But are not there." "Derry is a good man, but not holding to our vow." "Our prince wanted us here to protect the king." Ned confused, "Rhaegar is dead. The rubies of his armor litter the river. Robert smashed in his chest with his hammer." "The kingdom will sing his song and mourn." "The Mad King lies beneath the ground. Jaime Lannister saw to that when his Lord Father breached the city walls. King Robert will not allow him to have a song." "Jaime Lannister is no brother of ours. We shall slay him if we meet him." "You follow the orders of a usurper. Have you honor ser?" "Why are you here, Lord Stark? For honor or for duty? To end the war or for the wars to come? "Where is my sister?" "Come Lord Stark and I will show you your sister."
4:55 drink every time you say "weirwood net"? I got my water bottle ready. I'll skip on any alcohol. Don't think I want to get blackout drunk on a Sunday night lol cheers!
I believe in r+l=j but what I find strange is that lyanna would dislike robert for having bastards and then willingly go straight on to have rhaegar's bastard.
@@DavidLightbringer I think so as well, but it still seems odd to me that she'd be OK with being the second wife to a married man. Great work, as always ❤️❤️❤️
You asked if there was a conection between the myths of the minotaur and Europa, there is, Europa is the mother of Minos, the "stepfather" of the minotaur (minotaur=bull of minos) and both the bull that kidnapped Europa (aka Zeus) and the cretan bull are described in similar ways. Hope this helps.
No one swims on a horse but horses are related to water symbolism, e.i. poseidon the God of horses and father of many horses himself as well as the sea. Story goes Demeter turned herself into a horse to avoid advances from Poseidon, who turned himself into a horse and had his way with her, the union producing the divine horse Arion.
There is a Planet named Arion, the focus of the main plot, in George's "The Way of Cross and Dragon". It is a short story in the 1000 World's series. It has everything! A wonderful take of religion, ancient conspiracies, telephatic squishers, Saint Judas Iskariot riding dragons and carring the legless Jesus on his back! Talking about symbolism!
I feel like the show made people forget that the saying “the good king Robert” is supposed to be ironic. He is a shitty king (put the kingdom in debt and doesn’t keep the peace), he is a good husband (shitty to his wife and has affairs), he isn’t a good dad (ignores his kids except to dole out punishment and criticize), he isn’t a good friend (he is shitty to Ned and only ever abuses his loyalty), and he isn’t a good person (is aware of numerous bastards in flea bottom but does nothing for them, let’s his people starve, never cared about Lyanna beyond a construct, and just generally behaved like an ass). Ned’s good opinion of Robert was solely due to the distance, and the longer he spends with Robert, the more disillusioned he becomes. I think Grr Martin wants us to like Robert but also understand he is a shitty person and king, and because the show smooths a lot of that over, and because Mark Addy plays him so charismatically, people forget that he is really a POS.
I read a theory of someone saying maybe Ned brought Rhaegar’s ashes and buried them with Lyanna in the Winterfell crypts? And that Jon will find it as part of how he’ll learn about his true parentage. Am curious for your thoughts, do you think that would be possible or a Ned-like thing to do?🤔 sorry if you’ve already been asked this! And as always, your work is amazing and thank you for all you do!
I think Targargaryens had promise about Dany while Starks had promise about Jon .They are song of ice and fire and that's what Aegon told Torrhen Stark that made him bend the knee there is always must be Targaryen on the Iron Throne and There is always must be Stark in Winterfell and that is what Rhaegar told Lyanna and she told Ned Promise me Ned Promise me...
I'm probably bringing this up too early in my viewing of the video but how much of The Tower of Joy fight do you think is a depiction of the actual events and where do you think it lapses into being mostly symbolism? I ask because in certain interviews Martin stresses that Ned's recollections of this event come in a dream and fever dream at that. And while I'm here, while its off topic for this video and ilI kniw your Ironborn video is upcoming i have another question regarding Euron. I know you and Tim favor the idea that he's going be hijacked by some greater being Cthulu style but what about him meeting his end by underestimating the human agencies at play? The Warlocks of Qarth put terrible curses on people for insults and the man has tortured and mutilated some of their members. What if Aeron decides his sacrifice is his and not Euron's and pulls something like a Dresden verse death curse on Euron? Lord Hightower and his daughter have vast knowledge at their disposal and he has to get at them through a well fortified city? I don't see these thing not piling up against him. What do you think?
Lyanna wandered a lot like Bran and Arya, and saw things…there were whores in Winterfell and Robert liked whores. She probably saw him with several and was appalled at his True Nature. A brothel is where WE first see Tyrion after all… If Ned eventually found this out it could be a reason. He didn’t want his girls observing that and ruining their innocence or matches.
I love the stream, and love listening to you guys! You are both super intelligent and cool dudes! I really think Ashara is the key to the TOJ. She was there! George won’t admit that she was because it gives too much away. Ned and his 6 men fought the 3 KG, but the KG are badasses and killed 5 of Ned’s men pretty quickly with only Whent being badly wounded on his sword hand and no longer able to fight. That left Arthur and Hightower vs. Ned and Howland. Now we all know Howland is no fighter so he realizes both he and Ned are going to die unless he does something desperate. So he grabs Ashara, puts a blade or his frog spear to her throat and yells “Drop your swords or the lady dies!” Now think about this situation…Arthur could either keep fighting and kill Ned or surrender and save his very own sister. How ironic! If they stop fighting both sisters Lyanna and Ashara are saved. Arthur breaks his KG vows to save his own sister and begs Hightower to put down his sword too. Then they all talk it out and plan how they will protect baby Jon. Which involves pretending the 3 KG are dead, and Ned returning Dawn because Arthur is no longer worthy of being Sword of the Morning. The Dayne’s love Ned because they know he did not kill Arthur, because Arthur saved Ashara and all of them will be on the secret to protect baby Jon.
Either that or Ashara was up in the TOJ with Lyanna and when the fight began Ashara said “Stop the fight right now”! Stop fighting each other or I’m gonna fuckin jump out of this tower right now. And they stopped…and that’s how rumors about her jumping out of a tower got started.
I truly hope Edric Dayne has a large role to play with Dawn in a group of sword slinging, dragon riding warriors. To hell with Darkstar. Such potential, after run ins with Arya, Cat, Gendry. Oh well, fingers crossed. Not sure why I needed to get that out on a year old post. Lol
I hate to say it because i know you're gonna hate it, but i think Lyanna is still alive. We never see her die. A bed of blood, yes, but some births are bloodier than others. She could be alive. Awesome video, as always, mate
Ned's friends rode with him,as they did in life,Northmen all...and all died,except for Howland Reed,the LITTLE CRANNOGMAN...magic honing Isle of Faces for months Howland....yeah,Howland the blow darter
Can't remember if you mentioned this in your video on the matter or want to open this can of worms again, but Lyanna telling her OLDER brother what's up about love not changing a man's nature reeks of her agency, you don't just spit wisdom like that unless you know what's up. If I was operating under that knowledge as a teenage girl I wouldn't gotten in half the trouble I got into, and I was still considered "mature". I wonder if Ned has a Sansa parallel going on, where he's still putting stock into his own idealistic fantasies and ideas about the world and people like his woker sister Lyanna has to tell Ned, a man grown, the truth about the nature of men. We see Sansa inherit this idealism but she is forced to grow out of it early, Ned isolated himself after the Rebellion and was able to recreate his black and white picture of the World and didn't see through it again until it was too late.
She is really talking about Brandon isn't she? I think he was a toxic dude. He was not afraid to take what he wanted or something like that Barbery Dustin says . And he was entiteld. I think he harassed both noble and common girls on his rides. Maybe he was sharming as well. Like Robert. There could be some Stark bastards among the Rills I think.
I think Ned Dayne was named after Ned Stark because it sounds like Stark and his family did for Ashara what Arthur didn't do for her. Why did she look to Stark instead of her own chivalrous brother, whatever happened that Selmy thinks in which she was dishonored? If Aerys had made advances on Ashara, then the text points to Arthur ignoring it, because we know the Kingsguard enabled him. I am growing more and more convinced that Aerys tried something on Ashara, because if it was someone else that had dishonored her, they would have had to risk fighting Arthur Dayne, the deadliest knight in the Kingsguard. I think Lyanna/Ned/Brandon tried to help Ashara, and that's why Ned Dayne is named after Ned, because he did more than what a family member would have done for Ashara.
David, I raised an eyebrow 🤨 when you shared a theory that Aerys could have dishonored Ashara and not Brandon. Curious if you think “she looked to Stark” because Aerys used a glamor to appear like a Stark much that Uther Pendragon did in the King Arthur tale. I’ve always tried finding that part of the KA story in ASOIAF to no luck. I have to think George wiggled it in there somewhere given his goal of writing a KA like tale.
Eddard Stark never once in his inner monologue once referred to Jon Snow as his son. Eddard Stark told Jon Snow that he is of his blood. Lyanna as a mother would still make Jon Snow of Stark blood. Historically Lyanna death mirror Princess Charlotte Augusta's death in childbirth. Princess Charlotte Augusta died in the C section and her baby boy died as well in 1817. Princess Charlotte was the heir to the British throne before Queen Victoria. According to the records Princess Charlotte Augusta died in the bed of blood like Lyanna Stark ar the Tower of Joy.
How did Ned find the Tower of Joy? That drives me crazy. The problem here is the reason to be at the tower at all. The only plausible reason to have Lyanna there instead of Kings Landing is that nobody knew where she was. If somebody knew, it's not particularly defensible, right? If you had to choose where to go to be besieged which would you choose: the Tower of Joy or Kings Landing? Even if Rhaegar wasn't killed by Robert, he wouldn't have told Ned where she was. If Ned knowing of their relationship was an acceptable outcome, why would he hide her from him thus starting a warrrgh? If Aerys made Kings Landing too dangerous for Lyanna, doesn't it seem like he would have gotten Ellia out?
For Cersei remember than until after Ned execution, exept for her degenerate relation with Jaime... she did nothing: she did not poison Jon Arryn, she didn't push Bran nor order him to be finish, she did not killed or made kill Robert, even if "helped" no one force his hot wine into his mouth or to be ingured. She did not even ask for Ned execution she wanted him gone not dead...so for now, she was quiet innocent from the crimes attributed to her. However something intrigued me, she is the one who "asked" Robert to make Ned the Hand if I remember well her discussion with Tyrion, thinking it will be denied... but that's too...confortable...too "Baelish" x) for it to be a pure coincidence.
She killed her friend Melara out of jealousy and resentment and to hide the prophecy from Maggy the frog. She was having an affair with her cousin Lancel behind the Kings back and Lancel is effectively pouring the wine for the king. Not that it justifies the way she is treated by Robert but I'd say she's pretty established as a bad apple.
@@JuanThunder79 Yeah of course, I never said she was a kind heart, just... she didn't do what everyone reproached her. For a reason we understand later: she is quiet idiot. Again, Robert as much if not more kill himself than anyone else. The rare times she was actually "smart" is to "forbid" Robert from doing a thing... but anyone knew it was the kind of thing that hunger him and made him a daredevil and do the opposite of what he was "forbid to".
I guess I have a dirty mind because the name "Tower of Joy" always makes me giggle considering what a tower represents. Whenever you talk about the Weirwood Net, I am reminded of Pando which is the largest organism on Earth. Basically Pando is one tree that has a giant root network and all the trees are clones. It's a giant forest but also individual trees. I have part of Pando aka Pando's children aka some clones, in my yard as I happen to live in Utah and ended up with a few quaking aspens from it. What is kinda cool about my trees are that the neighbors a few streets away have Pando trees too and when Pando in the mountains changes color ours do at the same time, and the same time as Pando. The color changes are weird because Pando is at a way higher elevation. Sorry for the rant!
you know George is super lefty right? he gets political on his blog fairly often and he thinks Trump is a piece of shit I have to agree and I will def speak my mind on fascists like him any time I want Just like I'll call out the politically correct left for being batshit crazy whenever I want, no matter who doesn't like it
I've been binging your streams mostly (which are 🤌) so i can understand where politics creep in. But as george says nothing is black and white.. where one person thinks something is bad another won't have the same mentality. I totally appreciate your theories and how well you go into the symbolism. you're very entertaining as well. I just wanted to put my two cents in, I don't want to offend. Might have a new squisher here soon !
if you think we're reaching on everything, then you simply don't understand how George Martin writes his stories. I say that with no disrespect, it's just the thing that is preventing you from understanding what we're doing here
I think Ned might have realized that it was better for Robert to think that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna instead of letting him know that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, Lyanna had literally spurned Robert. It's not like he actually knew Lyanna, he was just in love with the idea of her. He had taken everything he wanted in a woman and projected that onto Lyanna. Like how he says "your sister would not have shamed me like Cersei does" to Ned. What did Cersei shame him about in that instance, she just asked him to not participate in the tournament, which was probably for the best (nvm what Cersei's motives are). Robert just wanted a woman who would look pretty and worship him, go along with all his BS. If you think about it, I get that Robert was aggrieved by Ned's loss of his family members during the war, but what he took so personally was that his fiance was taken from him, and that's literally why he waged a war. In Jaime's words, it was over a .... literally. So how would this person react when he finds out that he was spurned by the girl who he expected to be head over heels for him? This was a nobrainer for Ned. He loved his friend and all but "love cannot change a man's nature"
It’s always a pleasure but I especially enjoy when David snaps back at the trolls. It’s delightful
good good i was hoping it was coming off as entertaining and not overly peevish
@@DavidLightbringeryou’re doing an amazing job. Even the paid promotions are funny. Yours is my favorite ASOIAF channel ;I feel like you cracked the code and I like your predictions.
The whole of the first book can be read as Ned's arc of falling out of love with Robert.
I think Lyanna is way smarter than even LmL gives her credit for. To be so clear-eyed at 14-15?? Ned needed a couple more decades to figure it out (:
But seriously, AGoT describes a whole roller coaster of a Bromance - from childhood bonding, brave coming of age, falling out for the first time, coming together again, living apart while keeping an idealized memory of your bro, getting back together, disillusionment at last and a big explosion, followed by a moving deathbed farewell 💔
Yeah as shitty as Robert is the love him and ned shared is so real that Roberts death scene is still pretty tough to read
"Love's sweet... but it cannot change a man's nature." Lyanna IS pretty darn metal. David&Tim awesome as always. Thanks!
"I'm trying to sell you cereal and personal transformation!"...that laugh made my day :) Thank you
Lyanna "Robert will never keep to one bed"
Also Lyanna "Hey there married prince"
there is some missing info here for sure haha
Lolz well supposedly Rhaegar publicly tried to set aside Elia to remarry prior to "kidnapping" Lyanna.
2:13:00 The one point about Robert's size that y'all leave out is he is the only character in the book that GRRM leads us to feel may have been able to match the Mountain's strength...when he was younger. A pimp slap, no. Pimps don't like leaving marks because bruised girls don't bring in more money. Evil men don't want to look at them and good men are reminded that they are human and don't want to pay for them. Had the slap been a punch it would have broken her jaw.
Is their any chance at all that what truelly happened at the TOJ was a nissa nissa analog? Ie Ned used dawn to perform a caesarean on lyanna - which then either imparted some magic into Dawn (Ned sacrificng his 'love' lyanna) orrr alternatively by cutting jon out of ned's beloved sister was he literally "forging" John who is lightbringer himself
I think this goes against most logical theories, just something interesting I thought of
Oh, my god! Cry of anguish and extasy that left a crack across the face of the moon? It could be a pregnant belly. Her blood and soul went into the steel, that is the child!
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783I’ve always been so confused about that “anguish and ecstasy” thing. What an odd way to describe it. GRRM must have just wanted an easily identifiable motif that he could repeat throughout the story right? No, it really makes sense they’re talking about childbirth there.
There is a Chance that Jon isnt Aemon Targaryen or Aegon or viseriyon or whatever but that she named him Brandon Targaryen that would really fit with him Being the child of ice and fire aswell as her wolfish Nature
Bobby B is definitely not the friend you let date your sister. Really enjoying the stream, the tower of joy has always been such an intriguing topic.
On parenting I think Cat is the one who failed to prepare her daughters and not Ned. Because of the times he was more concerned with the boys, a good example of this is how he reacts to Rickon being afraid of the direwolves, also how he trained Robb and Jon to lead men.
I agree, it does seem like Ned was making an effort to parent the boys, in the best way he saw fit, teaching them the lessons they needed to lead in the North. But Cat isn’t shown teaching the girls much of anything. She forces Aria to partake in the same lessons Sansa does, making sure they have the correct “accomplishments”, but she didn’t do *anything* to prepare Sansa for court! And it’s ignorant af of her to think Sansa wouldn’t end up at court, or the very least, married off to someone in the south; she was never staying in the North, so why didn’t Cat talk to her about what to expect when she left her home?? Cat was focused on her boys only, even before Bran’s fall, and I think it’s because the “babies” were boys. Idk Cat as a character had a lot of failings, and people seem to focus on just how she failed with Jon and starting the war, but she was fucking up long before that.
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Cat is also the one that does all these desperate things “for her family” but the things they do actually get her the opposite of what she wants… she’s the catalyst that keeps pushing the progress of much of the story on Westeros, either thru her actions or the actions she pushes other towards.
It happens to her literally every time and several times she laments that’s she not with her family keeping them safe, she’s trying to keep them safe by pushing others to basically take preemptive measures.
Sending Ned south with the girls, pushing the girls into the court, pushing Arya to be a lady, pushing Sansa to joff, pushing Ned to send jon to the wall, pushing jon away from her family, pushing Petyr to help Ned, releasing Jamie pushing rob to war, pushing him to cross the twins, pushing the Baratheon brothers towards good sense and honor and peace… etc etc etc… it goes on and on, it all blows up in her face and yields the opposite of what she wants, and often times it leads to very negative outcomes, not just negative to her and her family but also just bad “for tge realm” in general … I’m eager to see if the trend continues now that she’s undead, it makes the whole brianne/Jamie thread quite interesting, it coukd go many different ways, but its certainly not going to go the way cat/stone heart wants, at best (for her) she gets to kill Jamie, but that’s not going to happen, Jamie has more to do and it doesn’t match his arc, brienne has EVEN worse dark times ahead of her before she can get peace/redemption, cat can’t get the girls back, they’re not under the control of any she can even affect and cat is gone anyway, I think stineheart only seeks vengeance against her foes, so I’m guessing she will make herself the foe of those she loved mist in life…so they’ll be the ones how have to kill her, likely Arya (I hope, Arya is a bad ass!)
I got distracted and started drifting off around 24:36 and my ears instantly pricked up when Tim started reading the Raining Blood lyrics 😂🤘🏾
I wonder if Baelish believes in the Harrenhal curse? As he's never set foot in the Castle. Though as far as I can recall, Janos never did either; and it didn't save him.
This interpretation of the heroic Azor Ahai corresponding to the Last Hero and the villainous Azor Ahai becoming the Night's King is spot on, and is so inline with one of the themes of ASOIAF, the human heart in conflict with itself And it reminds me of that epic line from Jaime, "That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead." This stream was very good, some of the best symbolism from GRRM and the best analysis from you.
1:04:26 - "swords rising and falling as they closed in around him."
Why does this sound so Other-y? Isn't there a similar scene in the book?? It's like ritualistic killing more than anything
ah yes that's the Others butchering Waymar
@@DavidLightbringer damn it, of COURSE that's Waymar
missed the live so just stopping by to show some love - just the other day I stumbled into that old order of green hand video on this 😂 was pretty garthed up for it tbh and need to get my train back on the tracks hahah.
thanks fellas!
So, are the Dayne Words:
“And Now It Begins”
Was Ned just being snarky when he said “No, now it ends?
Outstanding of usual; really enjoy both of your channels and these collabs are gold.
53:24
The use of "drumming" when the captive's throat is slashed in Bran's vision, and his feet drum against the earth and Bran could taste the blood.
Hello David, thank you for being that kind of guy! As I have two sons who think like you, and it would break my heart if they did not. I have been out here listening to you since 4 years into "Game of Thrones". I should have THANKED YOU before now.
Let's say N+A=J, the quote from Ned "See Arthur would have killed me if not for Howland Reed" I could see Howland Reed offering to marry the "dishonored" Ashara to appease TSOTM wrath. Reed is a lord worthy enough to marry her and he promised to keep the secret. I like the idea of those 2 being able to verify ALL the secrets of what happened and they're together in a castle that is near impossible to find
And again, another great stream. Thankyou, both!
Here's some Weirwood net symbolism i just found while reading the first Tyrion chapter in Dance.
He's drinking and wavering in and out of memory, so, the weirwood dream net.
He's remembering killing Tywin and then "descending the ladder to -- glowing embers in the mouth of an iron dragon."
The ladder is a symbol for the axis mundi, hence Jacob's Ladder and angels going up and down. And its interesting how Jacob is referred to as a worm, going back to the wyrms and dragons in the bible. Where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched. And here we get fiery coals in a dragon's mouth at the base of the ladder, Nidhoggr.
And then it says that red wine drips down his chin and onto his "soiled tunic". The red dornish wine dripping down his chin being red weirwood sap and his "soiled tunic" being a tunic made of soil or dirt.
Sorry for it being off topic, iust wanted to share, especially how the weirwood net relates to the experiences within the mind ie memory and imagination. The dragon's maw also being symbolic of the core of the Earth.
Jaime vs. Ned is definitely a foreshadowing of the battle at the Tower of Joy. And Arthur Dayne must have been stabbed in the back...or the leg...or blow darted. I think it is is more likely that Ned and Arthur had a one vs one and someone on Ned's side interfered and it turned into the King's Guard being slaughtered against Ned's wishes. But the King's Guard didn't go down without a fight. There's no way there were the only three there. I imagine the tower would have been garrisoned with at least a squad of common. I imagine the conversation going on between Ned and the King's Guard to be more like this.
"I looked for you on the Trident. Derry fled to Storm's End with the Queen and prince? Why are you not there to protect your prince?"
"But are not there."
"Derry is a good man, but not holding to our vow."
"Our prince wanted us here to protect the king."
Ned confused, "Rhaegar is dead. The rubies of his armor litter the river. Robert smashed in his chest with his hammer."
"The kingdom will sing his song and mourn."
"The Mad King lies beneath the ground. Jaime Lannister saw to that when his Lord Father breached the city walls. King Robert will not allow him to have a song."
"Jaime Lannister is no brother of ours. We shall slay him if we meet him."
"You follow the orders of a usurper. Have you honor ser?"
"Why are you here, Lord Stark? For honor or for duty? To end the war or for the wars to come?
"Where is my sister?"
"Come Lord Stark and I will show you your sister."
4:55 drink every time you say "weirwood net"?
I got my water bottle ready. I'll skip on any alcohol. Don't think I want to get blackout drunk on a Sunday night lol
cheers!
This video was a Monday afternoon well spent, many thanks to you both!
Chat got spicy on that one
Heh... Yeah
Can you highlight me a moment or two? Was on my way to kings landing while listening to this🤥
get in those becca bessi barra walls son!@@dabrynsantiago3759
Love Tim’s cat 🐈⬛ ❤
Ahhhh the Weathertop idea at 1:41:10! I love it, I love it so much.
David love your comment from 2:53:39 onwards 😂😂😂 you're the best, hope to catch a livestream one time soon 🤞🏻
I believe in r+l=j but what I find strange is that lyanna would dislike robert for having bastards and then willingly go straight on to have rhaegar's bastard.
they almost certainly married. Rhaegar probably married both Elia and Lyan a like Aegons the Conqueor
@@DavidLightbringer I think so as well, but it still seems odd to me that she'd be OK with being the second wife to a married man. Great work, as always ❤️❤️❤️
This was very fun guys. Do love the fever dream part of this chapter 😊
You asked if there was a conection between the myths of the minotaur and Europa, there is, Europa is the mother of Minos, the "stepfather" of the minotaur (minotaur=bull of minos) and both the bull that kidnapped Europa (aka Zeus) and the cretan bull are described in similar ways. Hope this helps.
No one swims on a horse but horses are related to water symbolism, e.i. poseidon the God of horses and father of many horses himself as well as the sea. Story goes Demeter turned herself into a horse to avoid advances from Poseidon, who turned himself into a horse and had his way with her, the union producing the divine horse Arion.
In response to Blood Bay horse discussion at 57:03
Aerion Damphair! Son of the Drowned God!
@@thedornishmanswife3712 In one myth Arion is thrown in the sea and rescued by dolphins!
There is a Planet named Arion, the focus of the main plot, in George's "The Way of Cross and Dragon". It is a short story in the 1000 World's series. It has everything! A wonderful take of religion, ancient conspiracies, telephatic squishers, Saint Judas Iskariot riding dragons and carring the legless Jesus on his back! Talking about symbolism!
Damn this chapter reminded me how much of a pos robert really is.
I feel like the show made people forget that the saying “the good king Robert” is supposed to be ironic. He is a shitty king (put the kingdom in debt and doesn’t keep the peace), he is a good husband (shitty to his wife and has affairs), he isn’t a good dad (ignores his kids except to dole out punishment and criticize), he isn’t a good friend (he is shitty to Ned and only ever abuses his loyalty), and he isn’t a good person (is aware of numerous bastards in flea bottom but does nothing for them, let’s his people starve, never cared about Lyanna beyond a construct, and just generally behaved like an ass). Ned’s good opinion of Robert was solely due to the distance, and the longer he spends with Robert, the more disillusioned he becomes. I think Grr Martin wants us to like Robert but also understand he is a shitty person and king, and because the show smooths a lot of that over, and because Mark Addy plays him so charismatically, people forget that he is really a POS.
at 22:51: I never thought of the death of the Reynes as stand in for the children of the forest *mind explosion*
I read a theory of someone saying maybe Ned brought Rhaegar’s ashes and buried them with Lyanna in the Winterfell crypts? And that Jon will find it as part of how he’ll learn about his true parentage. Am curious for your thoughts, do you think that would be possible or a Ned-like thing to do?🤔 sorry if you’ve already been asked this! And as always, your work is amazing and thank you for all you do!
it could be, since that's the Target custom, but i doubt it
Thank you David and Tim. Have a good one :)
I think Targargaryens had promise about Dany while Starks had promise about Jon .They are song of ice and fire and that's what Aegon told Torrhen Stark that made him bend the knee there is always must be Targaryen on the Iron Throne and There is always must be Stark in Winterfell and that is what Rhaegar told Lyanna and she told Ned Promise me Ned Promise me...
Love Dave and Tim duo!
I'm probably bringing this up too early in my viewing of the video but how much of The Tower of Joy fight do you think is a depiction of the actual events and where do you think it lapses into being mostly symbolism? I ask because in certain interviews Martin stresses that Ned's recollections of this event come in a dream and fever dream at that.
And while I'm here, while its off topic for this video and ilI kniw your Ironborn video is upcoming i have another question regarding Euron. I know you and Tim favor the idea that he's going be hijacked by some greater being Cthulu style but what about him meeting his end by underestimating the human agencies at play? The Warlocks of Qarth put terrible curses on people for insults and the man has tortured and mutilated some of their members. What if Aeron decides his sacrifice is his and not Euron's and pulls something like a Dresden verse death curse on Euron? Lord Hightower and his daughter have vast knowledge at their disposal and he has to get at them through a well fortified city? I don't see these thing not piling up against him. What do you think?
I think that will be part of it... the small folk always have their say
Great stream! i always felt like Neds chapters have little hints about the rest of the story
Mr Gwt! Love the collaboration.
Lyanna wandered a lot like Bran and Arya, and saw things…there were whores in Winterfell and Robert liked whores. She probably saw him with several and was appalled at his True Nature. A brothel is where WE first see Tyrion after all… If Ned eventually found this out it could be a reason. He didn’t want his girls observing that and ruining their innocence or matches.
I love the stream, and love listening to you guys! You are both super intelligent and cool dudes! I really think Ashara is the key to the TOJ. She was there! George won’t admit that she was because it gives too much away. Ned and his 6 men fought the 3 KG, but the KG are badasses and killed 5 of Ned’s men pretty quickly with only Whent being badly wounded on his sword hand and no longer able to fight. That left Arthur and Hightower vs. Ned and Howland. Now we all know Howland is no fighter so he realizes both he and Ned are going to die unless he does something desperate. So he grabs Ashara, puts a blade or his frog spear to her throat and yells “Drop your swords or the lady dies!” Now think about this situation…Arthur could either keep fighting and kill Ned or surrender and save his very own sister. How ironic! If they stop fighting both sisters Lyanna and Ashara are saved. Arthur breaks his KG vows to save his own sister and begs Hightower to put down his sword too. Then they all talk it out and plan how they will protect baby Jon. Which involves pretending the 3 KG are dead, and Ned returning Dawn because Arthur is no longer worthy of being Sword of the Morning. The Dayne’s love Ned because they know he did not kill Arthur, because Arthur saved Ashara and all of them will be on the secret to protect baby Jon.
Either that or Ashara was up in the TOJ with Lyanna and when the fight began Ashara said “Stop the fight right now”! Stop fighting each other or I’m gonna fuckin jump out of this tower right now. And they stopped…and that’s how rumors about her jumping out of a tower got started.
Heward is also in the fight against the lannisters 1:17:00
The pink stars are falling in lines
The marathon goes on, but I am interested in the David Lightbringer politics streams 👀 I can only imagine the comebacks he'd have for the trolls lmao
I truly hope Edric Dayne has a large role to play with Dawn in a group of sword slinging, dragon riding warriors.
To hell with Darkstar.
Such potential, after run ins with Arya, Cat, Gendry. Oh well, fingers crossed.
Not sure why I needed to get that out on a year old post. Lol
My Tinfoil theory is: Val is Gerold Hightower with a glamor (the weird wood pin) and the hints are
-blonde hair
-locked in a high tower
I hate to say it because i know you're gonna hate it, but i think Lyanna is still alive. We never see her die. A bed of blood, yes, but some births are bloodier than others. She could be alive. Awesome video, as always, mate
Love the chapter rereads!
Ned's friends rode with him,as they did in life,Northmen all...and all died,except for Howland Reed,the LITTLE CRANNOGMAN...magic honing Isle of Faces for months Howland....yeah,Howland the blow darter
Vayon Poole is like Utherydes Wayn, it's the Wayn symbolism associated with Others.
totally. the way Lyanna's voice turns into his is great evidence. Ned is coming out of the icy pool portal when he wakes from the dream
Can't remember if you mentioned this in your video on the matter or want to open this can of worms again, but Lyanna telling her OLDER brother what's up about love not changing a man's nature reeks of her agency, you don't just spit wisdom like that unless you know what's up. If I was operating under that knowledge as a teenage girl I wouldn't gotten in half the trouble I got into, and I was still considered "mature". I wonder if Ned has a Sansa parallel going on, where he's still putting stock into his own idealistic fantasies and ideas about the world and people like his woker sister Lyanna has to tell Ned, a man grown, the truth about the nature of men. We see Sansa inherit this idealism but she is forced to grow out of it early, Ned isolated himself after the Rebellion and was able to recreate his black and white picture of the World and didn't see through it again until it was too late.
She is really talking about Brandon isn't she? I think he was a toxic dude. He was not afraid to take what he wanted or something like that Barbery Dustin says . And he was entiteld. I think he harassed both noble and common girls on his rides. Maybe he was sharming as well. Like Robert. There could be some Stark bastards among the Rills I think.
well said.
Another great stream as always
I think Ned Dayne was named after Ned Stark because it sounds like Stark and his family did for Ashara what Arthur didn't do for her. Why did she look to Stark instead of her own chivalrous brother, whatever happened that Selmy thinks in which she was dishonored? If Aerys had made advances on Ashara, then the text points to Arthur ignoring it, because we know the Kingsguard enabled him. I am growing more and more convinced that Aerys tried something on Ashara, because if it was someone else that had dishonored her, they would have had to risk fighting Arthur Dayne, the deadliest knight in the Kingsguard. I think Lyanna/Ned/Brandon tried to help Ashara, and that's why Ned Dayne is named after Ned, because he did more than what a family member would have done for Ashara.
I know you've done a Forsaken read through livestream relatively recently but I'd love to hear you and Tim go through it together!
Do you know when the "Dunc" is going to be released?
David, I raised an eyebrow 🤨 when you shared a theory that Aerys could have dishonored Ashara and not Brandon. Curious if you think “she looked to Stark” because Aerys used a glamor to appear like a Stark much that Uther Pendragon did in the King Arthur tale. I’ve always tried finding that part of the KA story in ASOIAF to no luck. I have to think George wiggled it in there somewhere given his goal of writing a KA like tale.
agree with you on the political stuff at the end respect for using your platform like that
36:43 ned didn’t ban prostitution from winterfell. There was a tavern in the wintertown
Great, now I have to load up Raining Blood.
Great video
Eddard Stark never once in his inner monologue once referred to Jon Snow as his son. Eddard Stark told Jon Snow that he is of his blood. Lyanna as a mother would still make Jon Snow of Stark blood.
Historically Lyanna death mirror Princess Charlotte Augusta's death in childbirth. Princess Charlotte Augusta died in the C section and her baby boy died as well in 1817. Princess Charlotte was the heir to the British throne before Queen Victoria. According to the records Princess Charlotte Augusta died in the bed of blood like Lyanna Stark ar the Tower of Joy.
How did Ned find the Tower of Joy? That drives me crazy. The problem here is the reason to be at the tower at all. The only plausible reason to have Lyanna there instead of Kings Landing is that nobody knew where she was. If somebody knew, it's not particularly defensible, right? If you had to choose where to go to be besieged which would you choose: the Tower of Joy or Kings Landing? Even if Rhaegar wasn't killed by Robert, he wouldn't have told Ned where she was. If Ned knowing of their relationship was an acceptable outcome, why would he hide her from him thus starting a warrrgh? If Aerys made Kings Landing too dangerous for Lyanna, doesn't it seem like he would have gotten Ellia out?
Good one
He didn't give her the sword. Snow did
For Cersei remember than until after Ned execution, exept for her degenerate relation with Jaime... she did nothing: she did not poison Jon Arryn, she didn't push Bran nor order him to be finish, she did not killed or made kill Robert, even if "helped" no one force his hot wine into his mouth or to be ingured. She did not even ask for Ned execution she wanted him gone not dead...so for now, she was quiet innocent from the crimes attributed to her. However something intrigued me, she is the one who "asked" Robert to make Ned the Hand if I remember well her discussion with Tyrion, thinking it will be denied... but that's too...confortable...too "Baelish" x) for it to be a pure coincidence.
She killed her friend Melara out of jealousy and resentment and to hide the prophecy from Maggy the frog. She was having an affair with her cousin Lancel behind the Kings back and Lancel is effectively pouring the wine for the king. Not that it justifies the way she is treated by Robert but I'd say she's pretty established as a bad apple.
@@JuanThunder79 Yeah of course, I never said she was a kind heart, just... she didn't do what everyone reproached her. For a reason we understand later: she is quiet idiot. Again, Robert as much if not more kill himself than anyone else. The rare times she was actually "smart" is to "forbid" Robert from doing a thing... but anyone knew it was the kind of thing that hunger him and made him a daredevil and do the opposite of what he was "forbid to".
I guess I have a dirty mind because the name "Tower of Joy" always makes me giggle considering what a tower represents.
Whenever you talk about the Weirwood Net, I am reminded of Pando which is the largest organism on Earth.
Basically Pando is one tree that has a giant root network and all the trees are clones. It's a giant forest but also individual trees.
I have part of Pando aka Pando's children aka some clones, in my yard as I happen to live in Utah and ended up with a few quaking aspens from it.
What is kinda cool about my trees are that the neighbors a few streets away have Pando trees too and when Pando in the mountains changes color ours do at the same time, and the same time as Pando. The color changes are weird because Pando is at a way higher elevation.
Sorry for the rant!
Great stream! 🤠
Praise Garth
Awesome stream!
Only said weirwood net twice so I only got to take two dabs....
all metal is gameof thrones fitting...angel of death-night's king!
Yay David! No more Twitter/X
Arbor Golden grahams
Dave talk show 🎉🎉
🎉🎉🎉
A lie of omission is still a lie, Wonder Woman..😊
Hi Tim
The Tower of Joy has to be a sex reference knowing George lmao
how so?
@@DavidLightbringerTower as phallic symbol?
Lol
comment.
Comment for alg. Love the stream.
No one is leaving Twitter because of you.
comment
Love the content, you really got George's mentality down I think. Sucks that you bring out your political views.
you know George is super lefty right? he gets political on his blog fairly often and he thinks Trump is a piece of shit
I have to agree and I will def speak my mind on fascists like him any time I want
Just like I'll call out the politically correct left for being batshit crazy whenever I want, no matter who doesn't like it
I've been binging your streams mostly (which are 🤌) so i can understand where politics creep in. But as george says nothing is black and white.. where one person thinks something is bad another won't have the same mentality. I totally appreciate your theories and how well you go into the symbolism. you're very entertaining as well. I just wanted to put my two cents in, I don't want to offend. Might have a new squisher here soon !
Entertaining but y’all reaching so hard on everything
you have no idea what you're talking about frankly
if you think we're reaching on everything, then you simply don't understand how George Martin writes his stories. I say that with no disrespect, it's just the thing that is preventing you from understanding what we're doing here
@@DavidLightbringer if that’s the case I completely understand why he’s never going to finish
Great stream as always! Much love from Croatia❤🇭🇷
Another classic, love the political commentary at the end..musk is the king of all douchebags😂